Guild Wars 2

Dahkeus.8243:

It looks like a caster staff, not a melee staff. I.e. same problem with 99% of staff skins for thieves.

I’m hoping they increase the drop rate of the lightward battlestaff.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Maugetarr.6823:

Doggie.3184:

THEY MADE STEAL TARGET ONLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NINJA NERF!

/seppuku

The thread containing the most likely reason as to why.

Yup. Introduce a faulty unfinished feature and nerf the skills to accommodate this feature to hide its flaws. Because it’s the skills fault why such a faulty feature doesn’t work correctly — logic understood.

To be fair, I don’t see it as a nerf. At worst a neutral change.

I mean OOC thieves can still use signet of shadows. In combat thieves can use steal.

I would be mad if they’d nerfed SB#5. This is a minor change.

Just leaving this here. I think it’s the reason for this change to steal.

Doggie.3184:

THEY MADE STEAL TARGET ONLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NINJA NERF!

/seppuku

The thread containing the most likely reason as to why.

This change was coming and they told us about it (sort of).

faslrn.3816:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

It’s not a nerf, it’s a bug fix. I don’t believe that we are intended to use Steal without a target. The frustrating part is that, why fix it now after 3yrs just to screw every Thief up?

As for compensation or “balance” — I highly doubt any will ever happen. Still waiting on Withdraw’s 10% healing increase after they nerfed the CD.

I’m not sure why the change now. Only the DEVs could answer that.

I also understand that my suggestion would probably never make it in. I am not asking for it to be, I am asking what could be done outside of this change to alter the meta-game that was developed with the previous functionality.

It could be because of the interaction with how steal worked with the action camera. I had a lot of failed steals because I was looking the wrong way when stealing. Maybe changing it to target only fixes the interaction between the two similar to how casting phantasms on mesmer works with the camera, although I haven’t logged in to check.

Edit: I found the thread about the change/nerf/buff.

Impact.2780:

It’s also a buff.

In some cases it’s a nerf, denying you access to that swiftness which you might need if it comes down to a decap to win a PvP match, or if you’re running hidden thief and just need the stealth.

Mostly, though, it’s a buff. I lost count how many times I’ve missed steal because I press it a millisecond after my target enters stealth. This patch should prevent steal from going off in such cases, allowing me to use it for its full effect.

This is how I see it too. Do you know if it works better with the action camera now?

The problem isn’t backstab, it’s the surrounding skills and traits. Backstab, or rather D/X in general is balanced against the utilities on the offhand. D/P offers stealth, interrupts, gap closers, and blinds. D/D isn’t doing well because of /D. It’s supposed to be the burst set, but has a mismatched #3 and a weak #4&5. Staff isn’t balanced against multiple offhands. Its auto lacks the poison or inherent endurance regen of dagger. #2-4 are all situational, and #5 is the burst skill. It doesn’t need to be nerfed simply because it’s semi functional.

Backstab doesn’t need more damage or utility, the other skills around it need to be fixed so the sets aren’t reliant on stealth. The ranges of the heartseeker multipliers could be returned to their original values for instance. CnD could have its multiplier brought back up to 1.5 and it could blind. Dancing Dagger could use a shadowstep so D/D could actually chase better. The shadow arts and acro lines could be retuned.

And as a general guideline, just because one of our sets works and the other doesn’t, doesn’t mean we need to keep nerfing sets until we have no usable ones. It’s not like the staff is wrecking every challenger; it’s doing alright.

(Joking aside, welcome aboard!)

Lordrosicky.5813:

Zero Day.2594:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Cynz.9437:

How many seasons will anet need to get convinced that thieves and wars need help~

Thief in every team for about 3 years and not a word from you. Now all of a sudden this is a travesty :P

Karma.

Careful that karma doesn’t come back to bite you in the kitten … Will you say karma then?

Whats your point? His logic was that thief was never overpowered even when it was required in every team for about 2 years. Now its not represented this means its underpowered?

Well I go by the previous logic that whether thieves are in teams means nothing.

As I said. karma

Actually I think you’ve missed a lot of what’s been going on with thieves for the past 2 years. At least for what feels like over a year now, thieves have been talking about the only reason that they really stayed in meta was mobility and +1. You could say the only reason they were still relevant was their PvE performance. It wasn’t overpowered in a PvP sense when fighting players. Thieves (and even other classes) have been talking about the shrinking single role for a while now, and now they don’t even excel at that. True Karma, by the way you’re using it, would have been the loss of mobility with the change to being a true threat in 1v1 and teamfight scenarios.

Serious Thought.5394:

I love my root and 5% damage boost, it performs the function of power pistols. Poison doesn’t do much for raw power. Removing a boon might be good o.O

And why are you so stuck on this matrix roll? Give it to Pistol/Dagger if anything but keep it away from unload.

Because P/P has horrible defensive utility. If we could move the damage to the autoattack then we would have initiative left over for the other attacks. With 6 seconds of vuln on the autos, you could maintain 7 stacks providing the boost you want. Our successful weapon sets have either an evade or blind attached to the dual skill and the set allows them to actually use the others within the set. Look at D/P, Staff, and S/D (although S/D is arguably weak currently with everything else running around). They all have some form of mitigation tied to a decently damaging attack. SB might not have great damage, but it has great utility tied to it with decent damage through CB at close range, an evade attached to #3, and a shadowstep rounding it out as a great weapon. P/P relies too much on unload for its damage leaving little initiative left for any of the utility it may have. Moving the damage to the autos with a 0.75 multiplier (0.91 mult/sec) lessens the reliance on unload for damage allowing it to be given more utility (and still have strong burst a a 2.0 multiplier which is equivalent to a max damage heartseeker) while promoting a playstyle that reacts to your opponent more. The idea is to make it a set that can stick around in combat rather than just being a ranged eviscerate. I want the tradeoff from selecting it over SB to be sustained performance in combat.

Edit: The vuln upkeep on the autos with the 0.75 multiplier is about 0.98 multiplier/sec which is roughly equivalent to ranger LB in terms of DPS which is fair since it’s only a 900 range weapon. It would be great at single target pressure at medium range.

Serious Thought.5394:

The auto-attack needs something, unload does too. Full skill changes are not it. If you want a way to disengage and still shoot, use Pistol/Dagger 3. It has an exceptionally high power ratio. Unload needs to stay as a skill that, when used, makes people desire engaging you because of its lethal prowess not because of its technique.

Disengage- P/D
Engage- D/P
Ranged Destruction- P/P

I will alter the main post, but I think a power boost and another damaging condition could work (either additive or replace) for the auto. Unload should apply vulnerability per hit, gain 2 shots more, and/or apply might per shot fired. Just my thought.

You still haven’t commented on body shot condition duration being doubled (they don’t last long).

Well, the point of a roll is to stay at medium range and punish people for attacking you without necessarily disengaging.

As for body shot, I think the condition should change. Poison is a great utility to cut healing helping to fight healing bunkers. If anything else, I’d rather it destroy a boon than the current effect.

moje.1863:

Maugetarr.6823:

moje.1863:

snip

You could about face to chase the same way as with withdraw. Also you would be able to keep range on a person trying to close the gap on you.

Having unload as a huge initiative dump without utility like the rest of the thief weapon sets is just holding the set back.

Facing in the other direction without having a target to make advantage of the backward roll is just meh.. I meant it more like you are following your target in range whilst “unloading”. Unless they would add another reliable damage skill to the set, i don’t see crippling unload as an option. the auto attack in itself is just too slow for the amount of damage it does. I would rather prefer other options as mentioned above. Like having it apply vulnerability and or something of that sort.

Well the autoattack should have it’s base damage raised to 0.75 multiplier. That combined with the vuln on autoattack would make for decently strong sustained damage without needing to have unload be an initiative sink as the main source of damage for the set.

moje.1863:

That Unload change to a backwards roll would kill the whole set indefinately. With that little range you’d be out of range after every unload and you won’t be able to chase whilst “unloading”.
Sure when you think of spvp or close quarter fights it might be a viable option. I prefer to play p/p in wvw with d/p and unhindered combatant dash. it really makes up for the lack of SB#5 and you are still able to kite easily, especially when using Signet of Agility. I would’ve never even thought about attaching a contrary backwards roll to it.

I am 100% on Serious Thought’s side on that matter.

You could about face to chase the same way as with withdraw. Also you would be able to keep range on a person trying to close the gap on you.

Having unload as a huge initiative dump without utility like the rest of the thief weapon sets is just holding the set back.

Serious Thought.5394:

-Your first point puts two traits for pistols in two VERY different lines.

The other pistol trait just isn’t that good. I think it should be replaced by something else, but tht wasn’t part of the discussion.

-Aftercasts can be removed by skills with 1/4 second cast time (Distracting Daggers effectively turns my unload into 9 shots with a daze, and I lose almost no time because it kills the aftercast).

Yeah, but removing the aftercasts would buff the DPS and make you not get stuck in one when you want to use flankingstrike but it goes off after you’re hit.

-Maybe, but think about it- We have to stealth, get into melee (Age of AOE murderization/invuln 24/7), get behind a moving target, get ON them within I think 130 range, then get 4k. This assumes you aren’t revealed or killed in the process. And if you burn Steal to get in, it means you are down to a full multiskill combo like Mesmer.

I still think doing both would be too much. Making it a 2.75 multiplier or having it be unblockable would be fine, but not both.

-Agree, its just not good enough for the trade off.

yeah

-Heartseeker numbers were just thrown, will adjust original post.

alright

-That could work, but then I can’t spam my dancing dagger then swap shortbow and maintain my aoe ranged presence. Not sure how I feel personally.

You don’t have to shadowstep in, but it gives X/D the ability to chase better and the ability to remove condis. Right now it’s just overshadowed by X/P

-Yep.

-Thats what I was saying, merge the skills and it steals 2 boons. But I don’t S/D much. So should it stay two separate skills, is that better?

Merging the 2 skills isn’t a good idea. That’s how it used to be and it made landing the second strike (now LS) harder.

-I have no problem landing pistol whip, I just feel so darn vulnerable in the charge up time.

That’s what I’m saying. It’s a clunky skill with the windup. It needs to be split or redone. I’d rather see it daze but do it instantly while starting the evade instantly so it can be moved out of unless you add an immobilize (via DV or the PS).

- So speed shortbow auto projectile up?

Give it back the homing, but it doesn’t need the range

- I’d rather autos stay same, and vuln per bullet on unload. Then the whole set retains its power with a hint of control flavor. Also, I play Pistols a lot- I’d die inside if I lost unload to some kind of Lucian ability. Stays same, add bullets and speed cast- else do not touch this or I will be gone from the game within 30 minutes unless I don’t lose damage. Body shot problem is just that the root is too short and the vuln wears off before I finish unload. It doesn’t need more condi. Give any condi to shadow strike or stay off body shot.

Pistols are poorly designed. The only reason they’re even semi-viable right now is they buffed the damage to the autos and unload (too much on unload really). Giving it vuln on the autos increases your damage without having to spend initiative. With the Proposed trait, you’d be able to keep up 9-10 stacks. Adding a rolling evade would allow it to stand in combat better and not make it just a spam. A 2.0 multiplier is still very punishing and the leap would give the set stealth without having to take Daredevil. The reposition also allows you do move out of stuff like test of faith without taking the high damage from crossing the line. Overall, the set would be much more survivable and able to keep up consistent pressure with the vuln.

-I can’t make these work on moving targets outside of 600-750 range. Very agitating. They jump and I miss, they /dance and I miss, they use any mobility and I miss, they stand still after I toss and I miss.

Well if it needs bug fixes it needs bug fixes.

- That could work, I’m just worried about the bloody pathing in this game. I’d prefer a 1200 range knockdown with a chance to pull (current) opposed to a 1/100 chance to just displace someone.

I think the shadowstep would be a lot less likely to fail than the pull.

Step 2: Make Preparedness baseline. Replace with Nasty Business. Nasty Business: Stealing to a target reduces your cooldowns by 5% of their remaining cooldowns. This makes Trickery highly desirable BUT not necessary. Just like Daredevil.
I’d rather move Bountiful theft into this slot. They moved boon on attune for eles, this one shouldn’t be that big of a problem. Then the replacement skill for the master level can be “Pistol Shots Pierce. Extend outgoing vuln duration by 33%”

Step 3: Buff the entire Sword set (Including Flanking Strike, Larcenous Strike, Stab, and Pistol Whip). If you are feeling lazy, I believe a 4-8% damage boost would be a good testing ground.
It needs it. I’d rather see the aftercasts reduced because they seem to mess with Flanking strike as was discussed in a different thread.

Step 4: Backstab needs to have more payoff. We know you don’t care when Dragonhunters are busy shooting 4-12k shots from 1200 range that can hit multiple targets. Ignoring EVERYTHING else about them too. Backstab hits 2k front or 4k back on most meta builds as a meta build, its also melee and requires stealth. DH just requires waiting 4s. I’d honestly say a 25-50% boost on this as well as making it unblockable would do absolute wonders.
Making it do more damage and unblockable would probably make it OP. One or the other might be fine.

Step 5: Flanking Strike traits (RENAME THIS GOOD LORD) cooldown reduced to 30 seconds. I’d want more, but then again its not allowed- but 15s icd Ranger/Warrior, 1s icd Revenant, 5s ICD (oh wait…0…) Mesmer/Chronomancer. But ours is 60 seconds. Sigils do better than this trait, most of us just don’t use it.
Haste (flanking strike) and Roll for Initiative should both probably be on 30 seconds CD’s. RFI might need the initiative gain reduced, but it could definitely use some help.

1) Heartseeker modifier bars moved to 66/44/22%. Yep.
This wouldn’t be bad, It’s a reversion back to the old style, but your levels are weird 100%>66%>33% = 1.0>1.5>2.0

2) Dancing Dagger initiative cost reduced by 1, bounces up by 1.
I’d actually remove the bounces entirely and give it a rollover that marks the target you hit similar to warrior’s thrown sword ability. Dancing Dagger can stay at 3 initiative, but the rollover should be instant cast and shadowstep you to your target removing a condition and crippling the target for 3 seconds. 2 initiative.

3) Cloak and Dagger applies blind on hit.
Yep

4) Flanking Strike ABILITY (….comon…) is merged with Larcenous.
That’s a bad reversion. I’d rather see them add the 2 boons stolen back into it.

5) Infiltrator Strike TO has no cast, but LEAVE still does.
Meh.

6) Pistol Whip applies 1 stack of stability that lasts from the beginning of skill cast to the end. Reason? Mirror of Anguish. Evade too.
Eh. I think the bigger problem with this skill is the long windup before the initial stun, no to mention the root. It’s too clunky in the set overall. D/P is a fluid set. S/P should be too.

7) Shortbow range increased to 1200 for the auto attack.
If they don’t revert the heatseeking characteristic of them there’s no point. The auto would just be sidestepped at range.

8) Pistols range buffed to 1000. Even. Done. Badabing, badaboom.
9) Double condition durations on Body Shot or reduce initiative cost by 1.
10) Unload shoots 2 more shots, speed up animation. Leave the price, cast time, and damage per bullet.
We’re probably going to need a new ranged weapon before we get longer range. I’d rather have the autos apply vuln so they’re useful for both power and condi(6 seconds). Body shot should be changed to poison to make up for the lack of bleed on autos and it will also synergize well with power or condi(2X6 seconds). P/P 3 needs to be a backwards rolling evade firing 4 shots like the matrix and have a leap finisher. Total of a 2.0 multiplier on the 4 shots. (4 initiative)

11) Bug fix Impairing Daggers to actually perform the Combo Finisher. Make them faster too so they hit moving targets.
No opinion.

12) Bug fix Scorpion Wire.
This really just needs to shadowstep your opponents to you with a .25 second knockdown after the shadowstep.

DeceiverX.8361:

Maugetarr.6823:

DeceiverX.8361:

Not like it’s pretty much agreed upon that vault and BD are overtuned in their damage and the rest of the staff and the entirety of the thief is horrible or anything…

Woah, a 2.25 multiplier on a skill that can be walked out of is overtuned?

They’re fair-sized AOE’s and offer both repositions and evades. Recall that flanking strike has been repeatedly nerfed because of this, and almost everyone agrees the first iteration of flanking strike (not the one with boon removal) was overpowered.

2.25 Coeficient on the wiki is wrong; the damage is higher than backstab’s and that has 2.41. Vault’s should be approaching close to 2.5 and Vault’s is 1.31; better than Cloak and Dagger.

So yea, I’d argue those two abilities are wildly overtuned in their damage as an attempt to compensate for the horridness that is the rest of the staff and the class in general.

Well, I’ll agree with you that vault should be fixed at 2.25 unless the current damage was intended. However, with the evade on the beginning, the skill can still be interrupted or just walked away from because of the 180 radius.

Also, for a GM trait I don’t think that 1.3ish is overtuned since it’s virtually a glorified reckless dodge, but rather that X/D is pretty undertuned at this point, considering until recently that was a 1.5 in PvE and a 1.0 in PvP. Staff #2 is pretty awkward, but #3 and #4 aren’t that bad.

If #5 were to be brought down in terms of coefficient though, I’d argue the damage would probably have to be moved to the autos. The payoff for the stealth attack is minimal and the set isn’t great at chasing. It has no interrupts either, so it really just has damage and evasion.

…which leads me to think I’m largely agreeing with you except for the part where it’s overtuned. Without access to stealth on the set, the burst was moved, made better, and made telegraphed so it could be avoided. Its relative power makes up for the situational usefulness of the other skills. However, #2 is really the only skill that needs work. The others have their uses at the appropriate time.

DeceiverX.8361:

Not like it’s pretty much agreed upon that vault and BD are overtuned in their damage and the rest of the staff and the entirety of the thief is horrible or anything…

Woah, a 2.25 multiplier on a skill that can be walked out of is overtuned?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Prior to Marauder, every PvP players using Berserker are dumb…lolz.

Well prior to marauder, zerker amulet was marauder stats.

Serious Thought.5394:

Viable choices as Daredevil. Not as Core Thief. These need to be separated.

This is very true. SA needs a little bit of work. Acro needs a lot of work. P/X needs a bit of work before it’s really viable. X/D needs some help to make it competitive with X/P. Core thief still needs both Preparedness and the CD reduction of SoH baseline.

@ AegisRunestone I’m working towards getting my armor to be marauder. I was going to leave my weapons zerk and get to the 15k health I usually aim for with trinkets. I like just swapping the trinkets around because with some changes to just the rings and amulets you can significantly change your stats. Marauder armor and zerk everything else already puts you at 14k ish health, no reason to go change everything else and lose sigils. Rings and amulets are cheap.

I’ve been having some success using soldier’s amulet and daredevil runes. My highest vault so far has been over 10k. This isn’t to excuse the state of SA and Acro, but we have some semi-viable choices right now.

Vaulting twice kills ~80% of the group.

That seems a little exaggerated considering vault has a coefficient of 2.25 where backstab has a multiplier of 2.4. The highest damage I’ve done in PvP was 16k on a might stacking build using signets with both DA and CS, precasting BS into steal with revealed training. Even if you could make up the coefficients frim DA, CS, or Trickery with havoc master, staff master, and dodging for the coefficient from Bounding Dodger+stacking might, I would find it hard to get all the way up to 22k. If it was trapper runes for the stealth, that means it didn’t even get power bonuses and coefficients from the runes.

Usually I set this skill up with steal. If you time it right you stay in place, allowing all 3 strikes to hit. If you have SoH, it protects you somewhat during this animation, unless you’re against multiple people. #2 is probably my least used skill because of how awkward it is to hit, but if you have the Weakening Strikes trait, lotus poison, and hit all 3 strikes when entering combat using the steal method, its like ~15 seconds of weakness (and an 8k opener) right off the bat.

I think switching out the daggers for staff would be a good idea (also swapping out SoA for shadowstep as you have no stunbreak). Then I would go blinding powder > hookstrike > Fist Flurry > Palm Strike > Vault. A Sigil of Rage would probably compress that as well. Also consider trading the pulmonary impact trait for staff master for the uptick in damage and evasion.

kash.9213:

Maugetarr.6823:

I wish they would reverse the order of the two skills. Palm Strike was a lead attack in GW1 iirc. A stun followed by Fist Flurry would be pretty nice with the pulmonary impact on the end of the Flurry. It would be a little like Pistol Whip without the evade or movement restrictions then.

That one confused me also and I understand there must be balance reasons but I’d rather stun first to better land the flurry and at least force a stun break if they get interrupted.

Yeah, I mean there’s still counterplay available if they reversed the order, but right now it takes another utility to land this one, and often I feel like the Flurry ends up missing some strike somewhere due to an autoproc anyway. They could even move some of the damage from Palm Strike to the final strike of the Flurry to make sure it isn’t overwhelming.

In my head I had combined Temple Strike into Palm Strike because it was usually followed by CC.

Padd.1479:

wtf? what kind of comparison is that. we had no evade on vault in the beginning and later they added one… no need for a “full evade”. i dont get why you would complain.

Sometimes it gets interrupted before it lands. I think it’s fine, so I don’t care if the evade is extended into the landing or not, but that’s probably what he’s talking about. It has about the same evade frame cover as most of our other weapon evade skills which range from about 50%-66% coverage (including the aftercasts).

Azukas.1426:

Maugetarr.6823:

I have to say, thief is in an alright spot right now. DA is pretty good but could use some minor changes. CS could use a couple of tweaks, but largely is fine. SA could use some rearranging. Acro needs to be redone. Trickery could have a couple of things rolled to baseline, but is pretty good. Daredevil is actually pretty cohesive with at least 2 good traits per tier.

Staff is well done. I find I use every skill on it at some point in a fight. I wish the reflect on 1.3 would be moved to 2, and a short daze on it would be nice somewhere, but overall its one of my favorites now. If they put the same work into P/X and did some minor modifications to X/D, I’d be really happy overall. S/X has a few bugs that need addressing, but it’s not bad.

Edit: We don’t need a buff so much as some of the ridiculous stuff needs to be toned down.

I agree with the toning down of other classes, but let’s be realistic here.

There’s been 2 major power creeps in the game since June, and the thief has been left behind in both of them significantly. Truth be told you either need to nerf 6-8 classes or just buff 1 class. I’m of the mind that the devs will go for the easiest road.

Either way I find thieves underwhelming to fight against or on.

Well, the thing is that our offensive lines are largely fine, especially when both used simultaneously. If we had Preparedness and the CD reduction rolled into baseline, I don’t think that would be overwhelming in terms of power creep, but it would make the line less mandatory for PvP. The problem is our defensive lines. SA is ok, but there’s little build variety and the master tier is pretty bland. Acro has been severely outclassed by Daredevil. The thing is that it was never really that good except for the old version of FG. Daredevil is much more cohesive than acro ever was. Acro really needs to be reworked to bring some survivability and utility that’s unique from Daredevil. So my opinion of where we need buffs largely boils down to the fact that any defensive line
is not worth losing one of our offensive lines, and therein lies the problem. I don’t mind trading damage for survivability, but the gains are so minimal that it makes the thief feel extremely weak. Until our defensive lines get some attention, I’d recommend building survivability in gear choices and going full offense for traits. Before the patch I was playing DA/CS/Tr S/D and getting decent results. Removing the CS line for either SA or acro resulted in about 20% less damage, but added nowhere near 20% more survivability.

I have to say, thief is in an alright spot right now. DA is pretty good but could use some minor changes. CS could use a couple of tweaks, but largely is fine. SA could use some rearranging. Acro needs to be redone. Trickery could have a couple of things rolled to baseline, but is pretty good. Daredevil is actually pretty cohesive with at least 2 good traits per tier.

Staff is well done. I find I use every skill on it at some point in a fight. I wish the reflect on 1.3 would be moved to 2, and a short daze on it would be nice somewhere, but overall its one of my favorites now. If they put the same work into P/X and did some minor modifications to X/D, I’d be really happy overall. S/X has a few bugs that need addressing, but it’s not bad.

Edit: We don’t need a buff so much as some of the ridiculous stuff needs to be toned down.

Um, I’ve been having some success with a soldier thief build taking advantage of Daredevil Runes. They pair well with either Staff or D/P (along with pulmonary impact).

I wish they would reverse the order of the two skills. Palm Strike was a lead attack in GW1 iirc. A stun followed by Fist Flurry would be pretty nice with the pulmonary impact on the end of the Flurry. It would be a little like Pistol Whip without the evade or movement restrictions then.

I use it. It’s a lot of fun. I’m still a little clunky on it cause of 3 years with the regular camera, but it’s really enjoyable actually. The interaction with steal and SB 3 is a little weird, but not bad other than that. In the “Brawler style thief” thread both videos use the action cam.

evilapprentice.6379:

Maugetarr.6823:

evilapprentice.6379:

Full Disclosure: I don’t own HoT, so I can’t test this build. The following opinion is based just from looking at the build on paper.

I want to like this build, it looks like so many things come together to build 1 nice little package. The issue I’m having with it however is that it doesn’t really change how you play thief. It doesn’t look like you’ll be “brawling” – your sustain is limited to higher vit/toughness than usual for a thief and DF. You’re even more exposed to conditions than the “standard” thief builds.

Also, all of your damage is single target, and relies on having D/P equipped – the second you switch to Sbow, your ability to do damage almost completely dissipates, and your defenses drop to just DS.

When I think Daredevil brawler, I’m thinking something more like this

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAWVn0MBlOh1OBGOBkmiFYCzLMEHaDzfwRYLULBEAyAA-TZBEABaVGAgDBw+7P8wVAohHAAA

Of course I can’t test it, but (on paper) it looks like it has everything your build has, only more. Weakening strikes and Vault are both listing around 2k for a target with 2600 armor – that’s without counting staff master, lead attacks, exposed weakness, or executioner, and they’re both AoE. You’re impossible to pin down both withdraw and dash, and your DR will bounce between 7 and 27%. You’re also much, much more resistant to conditions (you could even swap Staff master for EA if you really needed to), and if you keep staff master in place you’re probably on par or above the endurance regen with Brawlers tenacity. Shbow doesn’t offer much in the way of damage, but CG and CB at least give you access to weakness for sustain.

If you ever end up trying this build out, let me know how it performs.

I tried it out a mix of the suggested build you suggested and the build I originally presented here

Here’s the results

Looks like it performed about how I expected (with a little more damage and a little less survivability, due to your tweaks).

How did you like it, compared to the D/P Pulmonary impact build?

I actually had a lot of fun on it. I didn’t include the first game I play with it, but it actually hits surprisingly hard and was consistently hitting for 7k and above on vault against some mesmers. It’s nice to not melt instantly in DH traps also.

evilapprentice.6379:

Full Disclosure: I don’t own HoT, so I can’t test this build. The following opinion is based just from looking at the build on paper.

I want to like this build, it looks like so many things come together to build 1 nice little package. The issue I’m having with it however is that it doesn’t really change how you play thief. It doesn’t look like you’ll be “brawling” – your sustain is limited to higher vit/toughness than usual for a thief and DF. You’re even more exposed to conditions than the “standard” thief builds.

Also, all of your damage is single target, and relies on having D/P equipped – the second you switch to Sbow, your ability to do damage almost completely dissipates, and your defenses drop to just DS.

When I think Daredevil brawler, I’m thinking something more like this

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAWVn0MBlOh1OBGOBkmiFYCzLMEHaDzfwRYLULBEAyAA-TZBEABaVGAgDBw+7P8wVAohHAAA

Of course I can’t test it, but (on paper) it looks like it has everything your build has, only more. Weakening strikes and Vault are both listing around 2k for a target with 2600 armor – that’s without counting staff master, lead attacks, exposed weakness, or executioner, and they’re both AoE. You’re impossible to pin down both withdraw and dash, and your DR will bounce between 7 and 27%. You’re also much, much more resistant to conditions (you could even swap Staff master for EA if you really needed to), and if you keep staff master in place you’re probably on par or above the endurance regen with Brawlers tenacity. Shbow doesn’t offer much in the way of damage, but CG and CB at least give you access to weakness for sustain.

If you ever end up trying this build out, let me know how it performs.

I tried it out a mix of the suggested build you suggested and the build I originally presented here

Here’s the results

The main thief I’m using right now.

Doggie.3184:

SlayerSixx.5763:

@Doggie

I can think of at least another 2 that arent trenchcoats (or have a skirt).

Nope.avi

Funny how people always try to say that though when it’ll never be true.

The only other skirtless ones that come to mind besides glorious are female sneakthief, female strider (gemstore), and female krytan (gemstore). I consider jackets extending below the crotch to be skirts, so male scout armor doesn’t count.

Tired of Trenchcoats.

Medium legendary armor is probably going to have a trenchcoat.

I use the action camera. The skills (heartseeker in this case) are supposed to go towards the dot. It could be a bug. I actually wish they’d disconnect a couple of skills like steal and SB 3.

Zero Day.2594:

Maugetarr.6823:

Zero Day.2594:

Maugetarr.6823:

No one linked this guy for arrow shooting?

Because he’s a trick shooter that’s spreading false kitten.

Entertaining, but false.

---

Well, actually, the most useful place that “style” has is in things like archery tag…

Well, maybe, but he’s using that same right side of the bow technique that the Turkish technique you linked uses (visually, from someone who knows next to nothing about archery). As far as I can tell in this game, the in game ranges equate to roughly centimeters, so our 900 range is about 9 meters. At a 9 meter range, it seems that developing a technique for trick shooting/speed would be more valuable than long range shooting. (I mean our auto attack is “trick shot”)

True. The way that the character “reloads” the arrow, though suggests the other style (the first video i posted). While it would be useful… and at 9 meters even a 35lb is deadly enough…. doing what he’s doing with +60, or 110lb… just isn’t really possible without tiring yourself out at the very least (great, you shot 3 arrows fast, your arms are dead tired, can’t shoot anymore ;P ). Like he even tries to compare his style to the english longbow archers… who, volleyed arrows without aiming much – being kind of like an artillery for the army.

for horse back archery the turkish guy does it well. they also use thumb-rings (you can notice it in the video), and their style was developed for riding horses…

Claiming that his style (Lars’) is the one-and-only, the all-mighty be-all-end-all, is foolish, since every different style of archery evolved into what they are to meet certain conditions. Take for instance olympic style, they shoot at ~70 meters with about 50lb bows… the whole point for them is to be accurate and hit the 10/bull’s eye (which from 70 meters is the size of a needle point – or something you can hardly see) rather than shooting fast… They’re like “snipers” if you will.

---

It’s also funny…

The week that Lars released his 2nd video, and got a crap ton of views, was the week that the first man in history set the record of scoring 300 points (might be higher, basically it was a perfect score, 100% bull’s-eyes, 70 meters i believe) in an archery tournament. Meaning, scoring 10/bull’s-eye on all his shots. FIRST MAN IN HISTORY… Lars get’s more views/more popular/more known …

---

Basically, he’s the troll in the archery community, and the only contribution he has done is attract more people to archery – which then get curb-stomped by reality – since newbies picking up a bow and wanting to shoot like him… yeah…

Fair enough. Like I said, I know nothing about archery really, but I knew about this video with a guy running and jumping and hitting targets that are at a 20-30 foot range, which just reminded me of thieves dodge rolling and hitting targets at 900 units.

As for the technique thing, there’s rarely 1 absolutely correct way to do anything especially when using different hardware from different cultures, so yeah, I’m leary of that. I guess it’s like saying the only way to shoot a gun is with a handgun technique which would certainly be awkward for shoot a rifle.

It’s just the first thing that came to mind and the closest to dynamic archery that you’d see in a fantasy game (that I’ve seen). I’ll leave actual archery discussion to people that know it though.

Zero Day.2594:

Maugetarr.6823:

No one linked this guy for arrow shooting?

Because he’s a trick shooter that’s spreading false kitten.

Entertaining, but false.

---

Well, actually, the most useful place that “style” has is in things like archery tag…

Well, maybe, but he’s using that same right side of the bow technique that the Turkish technique you linked uses (visually, from someone who knows next to nothing about archery). As far as I can tell in this game, the in game ranges equate to roughly centimeters, so our 900 range is about 9 meters. At a 9 meter range, it seems that developing a technique for trick shooting/speed would be more valuable than long range shooting. (I mean our auto attack is “trick shot”)

No one linked this guy for arrow shooting?

evilapprentice.6379:

Full Disclosure: I don’t own HoT, so I can’t test this build. The following opinion is based just from looking at the build on paper.

I want to like this build, it looks like so many things come together to build 1 nice little package. The issue I’m having with it however is that it doesn’t really change how you play thief. It doesn’t look like you’ll be “brawling” – your sustain is limited to higher vit/toughness than usual for a thief and DF. You’re even more exposed to conditions than the “standard” thief builds.

Also, all of your damage is single target, and relies on having D/P equipped – the second you switch to Sbow, your ability to do damage almost completely dissipates, and your defenses drop to just DS.

When I think Daredevil brawler, I’m thinking something more like this

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAWVn0MBlOh1OBGOBkmiFYCzLMEHaDzfwRYLULBEAyAA-TZBEABaVGAgDBw+7P8wVAohHAAA

Of course I can’t test it, but (on paper) it looks like it has everything your build has, only more. Weakening strikes and Vault are both listing around 2k for a target with 2600 armor – that’s without counting staff master, lead attacks, exposed weakness, or executioner, and they’re both AoE. You’re impossible to pin down both withdraw and dash, and your DR will bounce between 7 and 27%. You’re also much, much more resistant to conditions (you could even swap Staff master for EA if you really needed to), and if you keep staff master in place you’re probably on par or above the endurance regen with Brawlers tenacity. Shbow doesn’t offer much in the way of damage, but CG and CB at least give you access to weakness for sustain.

If you ever end up trying this build out, let me know how it performs.

The shortcomings you mentioned are true. It is weak to condis which is why I was trying to make it work with S/P at first. I’m hoping that adding SoA back in will improve this slightly. The only issue I see with the build you linked is that most of the damage is close combat due to the reliance on Weakening Charge. That’s not really too much of a problem imo as the toughness and vitality should let it stick around within melee. I wanted to use X/P though with the pulmonary impact trait though because it can apply pressure from range as well with headshot. Using BPS+Bound also results in an automatic crit on backstab with daredevil runes so it has alright pressure at both medium and close range combined with the ability to stealth. I’ve used staff in PvP, but it seems to work best (so far) with the standard maurader amulet setup . I’m sure setting up Vault with a dodge combined with daredevil runes would make for a decent burst while still using soldier amulet. Combined with the weakness trait like you have in that build would probably provide excellent sustain also.

babazhook.6805:

I find this build interesting more from the perspective of the interrupts than anything.

Now obviously yours relies lot on Pulmonary impact but…

There three new rather interesting sigils that proc on interrupt. One stacks might. One steals a boon and one steals life. They are new so I have no ideal of the cooldowns but I wonder just how well these would work in the build over the ones you are using?

A combination of bountiful theft and the steal boon sigil with a head shot twinned with life steal and yoru pulmonary impact on the same might be very interesting. I am not sure these allowed in Pvp.

I don’t think they are in PvP. I remember checking because I got the boon-steal one through the story. I could have overlooked them though.

Narcarsis.5739:

I do not think Absolutist’s Resolution is a good trait, as having condition clear dependant on an enemy will get you killed in high level play. Opponents will stop attacking you after a successful condition bomb, and you will end up falling over faster than you can clear damaging conditions against players who know how to cover their conditions (condition clear is last in, first out).

This trait should probably be rolled into driven fortitude to make it alright. The sheer number of cover condis really hurt it like you said. Most of the time it seems like it just pulls off the vuln, especially when fighting reapers, due to the constant reapplication.

Shinobi.3240:

Try it with Valkyrie or try this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoaVn8lCVOhFOBmOB8PhFqiyLE+gSornCggcu6/+xH-TZRBQBjpMAA3fgPHBAN8IAAwJAAA

Best regards!

Shino

I thought about running Valk, but since the pulmonary impact can’t crit I went with toughness over crit damage. Havoc mastery is nice too. I may try it out when I have the time since the flat +% damage will scale nicely.

I’d like to see the missile reflect on the autos moved to the #2 skill so we could actually use it from range.

A daze on #3 would be nice.

Staff #4 needs to be cone shaped like warrior’s hammer #3.

Edit: Bandit’s Defense needs that rollover instead

Fist Flurry and Palm Strike are in the wrong order. Palm Strike should be first with relatively low damage with a stun and then Fist Flurry should come after with high damage and the pulmonary impact on the end .

bud.9246:

have you tried this w/ p/p at all?

I haven’t yet. I have a lot coming up this week so I haven’t had a lot of time to play, but I had the idea for this rolling around in my head and decided to try it while I was taking a break. That’s partly why it’s just raw gameplay because I don’t have time to really edit a highlight video but I also like including whole games because it’s easy to make a build look good cherry picking single fights.

Outside of messing with some experimental builds with Daredevil, I’ve been playing with staff a lot since HoT came out and have a few minor tweaks that I think could help it be slightly more competitive.

Auto Chain: Move the reflect to Weakening Charge and extend the vuln to 10 seconds.

Weakening Charge: Have this skill reflect projectiles.

Ok, so the reason for the above changes is that the reflect is on the 3rd auto chain, and that’s not bad for PvE, but in PvP you really lack control over it and it’s a little counter intuitive. Rarely have I fought against someone who would keep using a ranged weapon while I’m in melee with them. If they’re kiting effectively while using range, the auto chain isn’t rolling over anyway to reflect. So by moving the reflect to the #2 we could reflect key attacks when need rather than by chance.

Debilitating Arc: Instead of cripple, maybe have a 0.5 second daze. Staff lacks CC except for Hook Strike and even then it lacks the ability to gain stealth through weapon skills like every other Daredevil set can have now. The backwards roll would limit the spam.

Dust Strike: Whether or not this eventually gets a field, it really needs to be conical shaped. The line is too narrow.

Vault: Fine as is

Padd.1479:

I agree with maugetarr and his advised changes. Overall i have to say that your build is simply not effective. You deal way less DMG, the drd runes arent helping. Yes you have a bigger lifepool but your heals cant heal enough to restore it so in the end its only a minor cushion in the beginning of the fight. You arent a real brawler with it. I would go in the direction of applying constant weakness to reduce incoming DMG while keeping your DMG output high. I wont show the build im using (its obviously staff) but i think its a more viable brawler drd.

I’m going to disagree with you on the damage output. The first attack of the video was nearly a 6k backstab, and interruptions end up being anywhere from 3k-5.5k depending on enemy toughness. Mug+Pulminary impact can hit for a combined 7k damage. Also, the heal on evade should add to the brawler aspect.

I’m going to try staff later to see how it pairs with this, but I don’t have the on demand interrupts with that.

Dahkeus.8243:

If you’re going to rely on Rune of the Daredevil for your crit (since the amulet is Soldier’s), you’ll want at least something to supply your endurance bar. I would say at the very least, you’ll want Sig of Agility, which would particularly advantageous since you lack condi cleanse.

I swapped out SoA for Bandit’s Defense. I’ll probably end up swapping it back for the reasons you’ve outlined and BD hasn’t helped me enough to really warrant it.

Edit: The majority of my damage output seems to come from dodges and headshot also, so putting SoA back in is probably the better move anyway, however it’s still capable of putting out decent backstabs because of the multiplicative modifiers from Bounding Dodger, Exposed Weakness, Executioner, and Lead Attacks. Non-crit attacks end up having about a 1.6 modifier total (+/- some because of lead attacks).

This should be an easy substitution for Roll for Initiative since that skill is really just too inferior to alternatives to be worthwhile for much of anything in PvP. If they lower the cd someday, I’ll take that back, but until then, it’s not worth 60 seconds. With your other 2 abilities as stun breaks, there’s not much lost there.

I’m using it because of the movement impairing condi cleanse and it gives me the 6 initiative back for BPS to slip back into stealth in an emergency. As I mentioned above, I will probably put SoA back in instead of BD. I agree with you that the CD is too long. It really should be in the 30-40 second range (with possibly less initiative gained).

I’d also suggest going Withdraw as your heal. The new DD heal is just too easy to interrupt and you’ll need an immobilize break if you’re not going with Dash for your dodge.

I actually really like the new heal and it synergizes well with the way this particular build works. The immobilize thing is why I’m going to leave RFI in for now. The heal is pretty easy to cover with stealth.

Edit2: This was also my first game with this particular setup, switching from trying it with S/P. I know there’s lots of room for improvement, but I wanted to help give a basis for some alternate thief builds. Your input is very helpful, thanks!