Guild Wars 2

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Maugetarr.6823:

If you want to call it powercreep, that’s fine, but I’m talking about bringing an unterperforming weapon up to the same level as a currently functional one. That’s more like balancing it. Right now it’s underperfoming and sets that can’t cover the holes in utility are suffering for it. I already mentioned though that taking virtually all the damage out of shadowshot would not hurt the D/P set because the set is well designed. Offhand dagger is not well designed because it lacks utility and damage. It needs buffs.

Then why not take the damage out of SS and call it a day then, if it would not hurt it anyway as you said? That would be a skill worth nerfing, just as have been explained here multiple times already.

However the goal of this thread is not to nerf D/P to the ground, rather toned it down so that SS don’t deal more damage than CnD, then give CnD a utility, preferably blind, via trait (CiS) or innate ability. Personally I want ShadowStep with CnD, but it’s not about what I want.

Well we agree on this, however, this could also be considered powercreep to do this and rather not kitten in the design of thief based on your previous statement. Nerfing D/P is more akin to simply removing Preparedness and the CDR of SoH.

It’s not powercreep because it already exists, rather it allows for more diverse build collection.

Nerfing Shadowshot would be enough, no need to nerf it to the ground.

Which is really just going back to the root issue of lack of utility on OH dagger (and the associated dual skills).

Exactly. There are 2 issues being addressed here, 1) Nerf SS and 2) allow x/D easy access to blind. Simply giving x/D access to blind will not fix the problem, SS needs to be nerfed at the same time to balance the weapon sets.

Sure. Nerf shadowshot.

However, doing that and simply making CnD blind is not enough to help make D/D competitive. It still lacks good gap closers, any decent soft or hard cc, any condi removal. If your original intention was to only nerf shadowshot, you should have made that clear in the title or first post as we’ve had to go around and around on the fact that nerfing any other skills would have a larger effect than intended by the statement “Nerf D/P.”

Jana.6831:

Maugetarr.6823:

You got me wrong. Moving Preparedness to baseline and the CDR of SoH doesn’t give D/P thrice as much, but rather gives options to thieves to not take trickery.

And that is a point for what now? D/P doesn’t have to cose trickery anymore as they have at it gives on their set anyway. Yes, every other thief though “still has to take it”.

Why would any other set have to take it and D/P wouldn’t? They either all still would or all still wouldn’t. D/P isn’t getting extra initiative or a CDR on steal from simply taking the weaponset.

Maugetarr.6823:

Maugetarr.6823:

How would you nerf D/P down to the level of uncompetitiveness as D/D though without harming P/P, S/P, and D/D? The only unique skill it has is shadowshot.

Sir Vincent already explained it, I already explained it and yes, we’re talking about shadowshot. I want all weaponsets to be equally strong anf for that D/P has to be nerfed. Doesn’t mean I want them all to be useless.

A nerf to D/P doesn’t help the other weaponsets against other classes though, it just makes D/P weaker.

Maugetarr.6823:

Maugetarr.6823:

Yes, IIRC shadowshot has a 1.3 multiplier and CnD has a 1.25. However I’ve already adressed the fact that if …

There is no reason why SS does more damage than CnD none!
Even if you take the DPS in a pvp scenario D/P would be better off by far.

I think we’ve actually reached a point of agreement here. D/P is a synergistic setup that would be successful even without the damage on Shadowshot. My goal is to make dagger offhand just as useful.

Maugetarr.6823:

Maugetarr.6823:

First of all, the unblockable portion of the shadowshot was a method to overcome the issue that this set had with reflections. When the shot wasa reflected it actually teleported your target to you and then cleared the blind with the strike automatically, so they’re probably not changing that part of it. The other parts you’ve mentioned though are just going to make certain traits mandatory. It doesn’t help, and honestly we end up with a bunch of useless traitslots that can only be used by one weaponset, and even more specifically to you example, one specific weaponskill.

So? that was an example of how I imagine traits to be like to that all builds would benefit from it. You can take the blind out or you can take the damage out instead – or you can create a trait additionally to this as it would be rather weak for D/P anyway if they still kept their unblockable on theri SS.

That’s the problem though. Our trait trees would fill up with traits that help one weaponset or one weaponskill as you’re suggesting. Why? D/P is the model of a successfully designed weaponset and dual skill. Shadowshot does slightly too much damage, but the set is cohesive. We should be making suggestions on how to make the other sets just as cohesive so there are options available to us.

Maugetarr.6823:

Maugetarr.6823:

Uh, sure, but that would buff D/P with an unblockable headshot….. and herein lies the problem. The steps you want to take have a ripple effect boosting the already successful weaponsets. Let’s look at the common factor in all the underperforming sets, which happens to be offhand dagger, and make adjustments there.

Alright, so what do you think: we all should just play D/P and shut up?

No, I think we should increase the utility on offhand dagger so that S/D, D/D, and P/D are competitive sets on par with D/P.

From a thief main persective, now we have damage on the mainhand weapons autos which is nice. There were honestly 2 roads to go down, one being more sustained damage and the other was more sustained survivability, but honestly the more survivability would have just made the class more of a headache to deal with (Revenant being my main point of comparison). However, now that all the close combat mainhand weapons are in good standing in terms of damage, offhand dagger needs to be looked at in terms of its utility (or lack thereof) and P/P still needs an overhaul (P/P 1, 2, & 3 need work).

Here’s a thread with a lot of back and forth on what could be done about dagger offhand.

Here’s one of the many threads about some rework ideas to P/P.

Jana.6831:

@ Maugetarr: Right now D/D and P/D also P/P and even SB (can’t speak for staff S/D and S/P) – have got no traits.
My idea isn’t really to make traits mandatory but to offer them some viability². Basically like we had it before June as everybody was free to chose whatever traits they wanted to and it still worked for most sets. Nonetheless D/P was comparatively OP even then although a lot weaker than it is now.

You did get that part when I said that thanks to trickery D/P has got 2 CCs and 2 gap closers, right? Also the only limitation they had (initative) is redundant.
So with that line D/P gets twice as much as any other thief. You can make it baseline, then they’ll get thrice as much. Or did I get you wrong?

You got me wrong. Moving Preparedness to baseline and the CDR of SoH doesn’t give D/P thrice as much, but rather gives options to thieves to not take trickery.

I’m not looking backwards at the problem, I actually see that buffing other sets isn’t that easy – baba said it the other day and he is partially right: we can’t just give every other set the same abilities – which would be difficult in case of D/D anyway.

How would you nerf D/P down to the level of uncompetitiveness as D/D though without harming P/P, S/P, and D/D? The only unique skill it has is shadowshot. I’ve already mentioned that even taking out all the damage would still leave the set competitive because a large amount of the damage comes from the Autos and heartseeker (shared with D/D) and a large amount of the utility comes from the pistol offhand (shared with S/P and P/P). Nerfing the set without hurting the other sets that are underperforming would be much more difficult than buffing dagger utility and adjusting initiative costs. All of the X/D sets are underperforming.

Look up the skills: SS does more damage.
Usual D/D combo: CnD + steal, BS
Usual D/P combo: SS + steal, BS

Yes, IIRC shadowshot has a 1.3 multiplier and CnD has a 1.25. However I’ve already adressed the fact that if you took out the damage, the set would perform just as well, because of the autos and HS. Those sit at 1.6+mult/sec now overshadowing both shadowshot and CnD damage. The gap closer is the strong part of that, which is the utility of the set. Imagine Shadowshot has no damage for a second and consider the following scenario.

D/P: steal> enemy opens gap> Shadowshot(0 damage)>auto, auto, auto
D/D: steal> enemy opens gap> other stuff wasted in an attempt to close gap (utilities, weaponswap, whatever) > unsuccessfully run away

Offhand dagger needs the ability to stick to it’s targets better.

Edit: ² In case of D/P I would imagine making traits that give them some of the utility they have now back – so probably the blind, unblockable or the damage SS does. They’d have to sacrifice some of their traitslots to either get back the utility they have now or chose different traits = they have less utility on their weaponset.

First of all, the unblockable portion of the shadowshot was a method to overcome the issue that this set had with reflections. When the shot wasa reflected it actually teleported your target to you and then cleared the blind with the strike automatically, so they’re probably not changing that part of it. The other parts you’ve mentioned though are just going to make certain traits mandatory. It doesn’t help, and honestly we end up with a bunch of useless traitslots that can only be used by one weaponset, and even more specifically to you example, one specific weaponskill.

ETA: How about “your offhand weaponskills become unblockable” a trait like that? That would suit all 2 handed weaponsets. Althought it might be OP in case of DB.. but not with an ICD.

Uh, sure, but that would buff D/P with an unblockable headshot….. and herein lies the problem. The steps you want to take have a ripple effect boosting the already successful weaponsets. Let’s look at the common factor in all the underperforming sets, which happens to be offhand dagger, and make adjustments there.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

That’s power creep and it’s not good for the game, thus the aim of the thread is to bring D/P down enough to meet the other set in the middle. Then fix the traits so that all sets can benefit. starting with CiS going to Master.

If you want to call it powercreep, that’s fine, but I’m talking about bringing an unterperforming weapon up to the same level as a currently functional one. That’s more like balancing it. Right now it’s underperfoming and sets that can’t cover the holes in utility are suffering for it. I already mentioned though that taking virtually all the damage out of shadowshot would not hurt the D/P set because the set is well designed. Offhand dagger is not well designed because it lacks utility and damage. It needs buffs.

Your underlying theme is to make certain traits mandatory for certain weaponsets, which is not going to help thief build diversity, but going to hurt it. Look at how virtually every thief is locked into trickery to be competitive. The solution isn’t to remove preparedness, BT, and SoH, because would objectively just make thief weaker. The objective is to look at what makes trickery mandatory and try to incorporate some of it into the core thief to lessen the disparity between deciding to take trickery or forego it.

It’s quite obvious why Trickery is staple: 15 init pool and Steal CDR. Make those default then Trick would not be that important.

Well we agree on this, however, this could also be considered powercreep to do this and rather not kitten in the design of thief based on your previous statement. Nerfing D/P is more akin to simply removing Preparedness and the CDR of SoH.

You’re looking at the situation backwards. It’s not justified for D/D to lack the damage because it doesn’t have the utility to make up for it. Utility needs to be brought up to par. The only reason D/P is doing more damage than D/D is because it’s staying on target so much better. Shadowshot damage might be overtuned, but it’s equal to less than 1 second of autoattacking at this point. It they removed virtually all the damage from shadowshot, the overall set would barely feel it.

I would argue that it’s not about D/P’s ability to stick to target, rather it has access to blind that allows the set to stay longer than D/D — which is one of the issues brought up having CiS in GM.

Which is really just going back to the root issue of lack of utility on OH dagger (and the associated dual skills).

Jana.6831:

@ Aidal: D/P isn’t melee – try D/D for a bit and realize that the gap closer 3 offers you a completely different playstyle which isn’t melee.

@ Maugetarr: The problem and reason why I called for a nerf is that each thief has got access to all traits – that was the initial “problem”.
Overall all other sets either need a massive buff (which isn’t that easy as D mainhand and D offhand, P mainhand and P offhand always have the same skills – and it just happens to synergize ridiculously well with D/P) – or D/P should be toned down so we can get useful traits “for all” thieves (D/P is that independend that it works with any traits) which wouldn’t make D/P op and call for an overall nerf for thief which would leave us at the start again.
If you look at all traits D/D, D/P, P/D usually use, you’ll find that all possible builds are suited for D/P, that’s another problem. And it’s really their playstyle – hidden killer doesn’t really help me even with the buff – it further buffs D/P – it feels as if our class revolves around D/P.
I also mentioned that D/P now does more damage than D/D and I don’t see why this is justified.

And yes this thread was also meant as a “HEY ANET WE’VE GOT A PROBLEM, PLEASE ACKNOWLEDGE THIS!!”
I mean they can bring out another expansion with new elites or they can care for the x vanilla specs of all classes which have been left behind.

Edit: Added stuff as the former sentence didn’t make sense.

You’ve identified the problem, but here the tac you’ve taken is in the wrong direction. You identified that D/P works properly, so it can basically use all of the available traits. The solution isn’t to bring down D/P so that it requires certain traits to function correctly, but bring the other sets up to par so that they can function with any sets of traits as well.

Your underlying theme is to make certain traits mandatory for certain weaponsets, which is not going to help thief build diversity, but going to hurt it. Look at how virtually every thief is locked into trickery to be competitive. The solution isn’t to remove preparedness, BT, and SoH, because would objectively just make thief weaker. The objective is to look at what makes trickery mandatory and try to incorporate some of it into the core thief to lessen the disparity between deciding to take trickery or forego it.

Bringing the trickery argument back around to D/P, we shouldn’t nerf D/P, but instead look at what makes it successful and incorporate those design decisions into the other weaponsets. D/P has good sustained damage, good spike damage, a blinding gap closer that hits (unecessarily) hard, a ranged interrupt, and a secure method to enter stealth. D/D has good sustained and spike damage, however it lacks the ability to stick to target, a dual attack at odds with the rest of the set, a weak and slow cripple, and relatively expensive and yet unreliable stealth. The main culprit as to where these two weaponsets deviate from each other is the offhand. S/D is only viable because it has decent sustained damage, the ability to stick to target, and a unified dual skill. The ability to close gaps and evade makes up for the unreliable nature of of the OH dagger stealth and weak cripple. It’s only working because sword is carrying the dagger offhand.

You’re looking at the situation backwards. It’s not justified for D/D to lack the damage because it doesn’t have the utility to make up for it. Utility needs to be brought up to par. The only reason D/P is doing more damage than D/D is because it’s staying on target so much better. Shadowshot damage might be overtuned, but it’s equal to less than 1 second of autoattacking at this point. It they removed virtually all the damage from shadowshot, the overall set would barely feel it.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The problem is, as long as D/P is in the spotlight, other sets are left in the dark not just D/D.

Taking D/P out of the spotlight until it’s not viable to play wouldn’t help the other sets, it would simply limit thief to the next best set (staff). The other sets don’t magically become the better versus other classes. The problem is the weak offhand dagger. S/D is still objectively weaker than the aforementioned (disregarding DPS for a second) because 2 of that set’s skills are undertuned. S/D’s 1, 2, and 3 can make up for these shortcomings. D/D can’t make up for the lack of utility. Buffing offhand dagger to a competitive level would help the 3 underperfoming combinations whereas nerfing D/P just tears down D/P and possibly 3 other sets depending on the extent of the nerfs.

Let’s look at a different class for a second. Ele dagger is in a much better place than ele scepter. They shouldn’t be asking for nerfs to dagger mainhand to bring down both sets to an uncompetitive level, but instead they need to buff scepter to a competive level that fills a different playstyle/niche.

Back to thief, OH dagger simply isn’t competitive with OH pistol. It doesn’t have the damage or utility. Buffing the utility of it by adding something unique that pistol doesn’t have is the way to go. This could be shadowsteps (as I and others have suggested), condi clears, boon hate, life gain, superspeed, quickness, blinds, or whatever you want (within reason). The ways they could improve oh dagger is almost unlimited while the only thing that nerfing D/P is going to accomplish is removing a competitive set and perhaps hurting 3 other already weak ones.

Galandil.9641:

Anomaly.7612:

Really great combo but is it worth using the dodge offensively when a heart seeker works just fine?

I suppose it’s a good backup when you know you can be more offensive and sacrifice a dodge.

Nope, for several reasons:

• HS can be interrupted, Bound can’t
• For targets with 50%+ HPs, HS has a coeff. of 1, Bound of 1.38
• After using Bound, you have a +10% dmg buff for 4s, thus increasing the dmg output of Backstab and one full chain of AA
• You don’t use 3 ini to complete the combo, just 50 endurance

Just one more thing to add that I didn’t see anyone else mention. He’s using rune of the Daredevil meaning that after the BPS/Bound/Steal combo, backstab is guaranteed to crit cause of the single intelligence proc.

Zodryn.4216:

Thanks to the fantastical “6k dagger auto!!” post, I thought I’d do a bit of testing on my own to compare the DPS between Thief Dagger, Sword, Staff, and Revenant Sword. Here are the initial results (I’ll do more complete testing at a later date):

Test 1
No traits, utilities, or sigils
Marauder amulet, Pack runes
Dagger – 2.1k
Staff – 2.1k
Sword – 1.92k
Rev – 1.7k

Test 2
All damage boosting traits, passive utilities, accuracy and force sigils
Marauder amulet, Pack runes
Dagger – 4k
Staff – 4k
Sword – 3.7k
Rev – 3.4k

That guy was using zerk amulet too, no trickery either. Don’t forget you have to take all the possible damage modifiers, not something that might actually be viable for play. Don’t forget scholar runes and probably sigil of rage to boost the DPS right before the screenshot.
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/s

Rezzet.3614:

TheLastNobody.8319:

XxsdgxX.8109:

And wait for the biased cancerous players come defend thief.

Guarantee this will be the defense

“We’re squishy.”

this and its already happening
because the other professions sure as hell cant use berserker amulets

Thieves can’t and don’t use it either.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Petoox.6570:

I don’t know. Thief forums are probably worst possible place, you guys are so kittening terrible at the game.

Thief was fine even before balance patch, meta was bit too tanky but thief did not need damage buffs.

Currently, thief is broken in my opinion.

We never asked for Damage buff we asked for sustain, Anet in their infinite wisdom gave us Damage buff instead. Sad really 90% of Thieves will agree we did not need a damage buff.

Well there were 2 ways to go about helping thieves: upping sustain to make a moderate risk moderate reward class, or upping damage for a high risk high reward class. They went with the latter. I mean they did finally give us our first decent autoproc I guess (assuming it’s not buggy), but I prefer the more damage over the more sustain. Although I could just be the 1/10 thieves.

It’s not as cool as the scythe (should be) but maybe a spiky staff instead

Impact.2780:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Didn’t they say they increased it 10% in a patch but it was never increased?

Hmm. If so, they didn’t say “fixed” in this patch….

Which means we got another 10% buff, and are still missing our previous 10% buff!

Let the cries for a 10% buff continue!

Nah, during the preview stream they mentioned that it was supposed to be in there, but never made it (dunno why) and this is the original 10% that was promised.

To nip this double buff call in the bud.

Serious Thought.5394:

Einlanzer.1627:

Jesus. Overbuff on Dagger and Staff AA while Sword and Pistol still suck.

My god he is terrible. At least we got the Withdraw buff finally.

Sword seemed fine to me. I do agree pistol needs legitimate assistance. I was thinking burning matching bleeding for sneak attack and/or that the Pistol auto (after using the trait, and prob with an CD) swapped one of your conditions for one of their boons. YAY POWERCREEP.

Sword had some serious aftercast animation problems that interfered with Flanking Strike, and the main culprit has virtually been removed. Pistol still needs significant help, but based on the numbers I and the other guys have seen with in-game testing, all auto damage seems relatively in line with each other on melee weapons.

Quick tests in the mists on comparitive AA damage: Build only had trickery traitline, no amulet, no runes, no sigils. This is approximate time (no going back in to count frames or anything, I just wanted a quick comparison) to kill heavy golem with only autos.

Dagger: 32ish seconds (I suspect poison being the main culprit of this with such a long time to kill with virtually baseline stats)
Sword: 39ish seconds
Staff: 41ish seconds

With Pack runes and marauder amulet (no sigils or traits still):
Dagger: 11.5ish seconds
Sword: 12ish seconds
Staff: 13ish seconds

It seems that all the weapon autos were buffed to relatively equal damage output with the exception of staff which probably comes into line with staff mastery.

That’s an increase of 30%.

Adrian Guardian.9480:

Kicker.8203:

Wow this looks like it’s made sword even worse compared to d/p and staff

Some math:
dagger AA
before (0.56+0.85+0.85)/2.07
=> 1.09 (+ poison)
after (0.56*1.42+0.85+0.85*1.29)/(2.07-0.35+0.06)
=> 1.54 (+ 16% more poison than before)
the poison is worth like 0.2-0.3 in a power build, so ~1.8 dmg coefficient/sec

sword AA
before (0.8+0.8+1.3)/2.52
=> 1.15 (+ cripple+weakness)
after (0.8+0.8+1.3)/(2.52+0.16-0.1+0.08-0.48)
=> 1.33 (+ 15% more cripple+weakness than before) dmg coefficient/sec

staff AA
before (0.55+0.65+1.32)/2.14
=> 1.18 (+ vuln)
after (0.55*1.36+0.65*1.16+1.32*1.44)/2.14
=> 1.59 (+ vuln)
vulnerability is a 15% damage buff solo, so 1.83 dmg coefficient/sec

conclusion: you’re right, sword became worse compared to staff and dagger

You probably mathed better than I did from my phone, although I didn’t include poison from dagger.

DeceiverX.8361:

AA damage on MH dagger and staff way, way overtuned. Just what the hell are they thinking?…

So the language is a little weird. If by “increased the attack point” they mean increased the amount of time before the skill hits, sword really falls behind. If it pushes the attack into what was previously aftercast, sword is decently competitive. If the second is true, sword sits at ~1.5 mult/sec, dagger at ~1.65 mult/sec, and staff at ~1.58 mult/sec. If “increased attack point” means it hits sooner, sword actually jumps to the head of the pack at ~1.7 mult/sec.

Shockwave.1230:

The problem is offhand dagger is weak, not that D/P is too strong.

I would just add effects to offhand dagger, because all 3 combinations with offhand dagger are fairly lack luster.

Offhand dagger needs a gimmick. What that gimmick is doesn’t matter as long as it’s good. The problem is, the skills are currently bad. Plenty of people have suggested things in the past.. I’ve suggested giving a “teleport to behind” effect as a skill flip over to dancing dagger, but plenty of other things can be done instead or in addition.

DeceiverX.8361:

If the moral of this thread is to nerf D/P because you’re still upset over the changes to Shadow Arts, and proclaim me and what I bring to the table from experience and mathematical perspectives as invalid or unwanted for whatever reason, justified or not, just say so now. I’ll take my posting elsewhere.

I like the postings and discussion. We don’t agree on everything, but I think bringing mathematical arguments into the discussion to show whether something is OP or UP is a good thing.

It’s the lack of protection and other defensive traits. The damage formula is:

(weapon damage)X(skill multipler)X(other multipliers)/(armor)

Protection basically adds a X(2/3) to the end of that. If we move that to the denominator, it is multiplying the armor value by (3/2), or effectively producing a 50% boost to their armor, meaning 3k turns into 4.5k for them.

Jana.6831:

Maugetarr:
There were quite a few thieves on one of my server who ran D/D and S/P – but yes it is a nice set and everything it just doesn’t fit thief as everything about thief is being mobile. Maybe that’s my issue with staff – it isn’t really fluid and my wrist hurts from the awkward angle I have to force it into to get the AoE circle right on top of “me”.

In general:
Then how about designing some traits especially suited for S/D, D/D, D/P, P/D and even P/P? – it would be new in this game but it could be done: “If you’re wielding mainhand sword/offhand dagger…” or “Mainhand sword and offhand dagger”

ETA²: It was probably less than 75 D/D thieves. I usually became friends with them – that’s how rare they were.

Staff is quite fluid once you get used to it with the exception of whirling charge (staff 2). I’d like to see a remake of the #2 skill as either 3 swift strikes with the majority of the damage on the last hit, or as arcing slice (warrior GS burst) with a moderate hit with about 4 seconds of weakness.

I’d rather not see specific weapon traits as they’ll either be useless (see combined training IIRC) or mandatory limiting build choices.

DeceiverX.8361:

P/P has been rather poor due to the mere fact it just chews through initiative to deal damage, and the rest of the kit simply has horrible coefficients for both power and condition builds – Body Shot is horrible and Vital Shot has both poor power and condition damage scaling, and the nerf to BP, while very important for D/P thief, hurt P/P a lot more than was necessary. Interruption synergy is the only thing it really has, and that falters a lot due to the ridiculous evasion/block/invuln/reflect uptime most kits have right now.

P/P offers crazy damage via unload spam, though; almost 1.5 backstabs per use. Makes more sense imho to tone down unload and buff Body Shot and the likes.

Yeah, unload was buffed too much and the autos not enough. It’s a ranged eviscerate in terms of damage and the set still isn’t great. P/P 1, 2, and 3 need a redesign.

DeceiverX.8361:

I just fear a shadowstep on OH Dagger 4 would allow s/d to get too much engage/disengage potential.

It would up the engage potential, but not the disengage.

DeceiverX.8361:

Many other classes’ weapons have niche purposes for optimal use. That said, most of these skills have general use.

Thief working with the initiative mechanic is both great and horrible for the reason that while other classes will always use their full set of skills, and skills are designed to be well-rounded and impactful, the thief needs tools that need to be both impactful but not overly-so as to prevent spamming the same skill to be a viable means of play: See Shadow Shot and Death Blossom.

Most S/D thieves use CnD intermittently. The stealth attacks on Sword are actually very strong control effects, and flickering stealth between evades is a big part of how the set plays. Just going pure stealth-less damage and evasion falls more into the lines of S/P due to interruption/evasion/CC/blind field but no way to gain stealth aside from bound on Daredevil.

Overall I think the thief’s weapons are fairly well designed. Shadow Shot’s damage is definitely over-tuned on D/P, but the set plays cohesively. Same with S/D, S/P, P/D, and to an extent, P/P. Only a few skill changes are needed on most of these sets to give them a bit more oomph. D/D suffers because ANet doesn’t seem to have an idea as to what they want the set to do, not because of trait mis-alignment or low ability potency. Because its condi and power styles play so differently, the skills feel inversely weak depending on build, and because of this, there is no room to create sound utility. Daredevil coming into the mix also really screwed this up, as now you also have things like S/P getting stealth access when it was designed not to.

I think S/P has largely not been as successful as D/P because of its dual skill. The windup and root kill it as an evasive set.
P/D had a great dual skill, but the autos are low pressure and body shot is highly situational. It also suffers from the the weak OH dagger.
P/P has just too low sustained pressure except for unload, but as such is an initiative hog that doesn’t allow for the use of defensive skills. I almost feel like the blog post was talking about this set when they mentioned needing initiative for survivability but also requiring it for damage. I’m hoping unload gets a similar treatment as warrior’s rifle 4 and much of the damage is moved to the autoattack and P/X 2.
I just want to echo you in that D/D suffers the most because of the lack of both utility and damage of dagger offhand combined with the disjointed nature of deathblossom within the set.

Jana.6831:

Alright, then question to you guys, how would you buff the other weapon sets to make them equal with D/P?
We all need the same stuff that D/P has got on its set – but I kind of think that it’s be more exciting if we weren’t stuck in a certain playstyle but could chose our own. So, if a S/D thief decides he wants to play stealthless (which most of them did anyway) – why would he need CnD and or CiS? f.e. (If other weapons were given more utility) – like I said; half of our traits are useless – and that after a trait merge, which is pretty sad when you think about it – you could easily replace them and put utility for weapons on them – maybe the same is true for other classes.

Edit: Spelling

Well, that’s where a shadowstep on dagger offhand would help. D/D lacks the gap closers and just the ability to stick to the target in general. Giving it a solid shadowstep and condi clear mitigates the necessity of a lower steal CD and shadows embrace. Giving CnD a blind and lowering the initiative to 5 gives more chances for it to hit with the high number of blocks flying around and removes the need for CiS.

As someone pointed out in another thread, the Shadow step on X/D 4 might be slightly redundant with S/D, but overall I think it would improve the ability to stick to mobile targets in combat without having to step back and forth with S/D 2.

babazhook.6805:

Maugetarr.6823:

babazhook.6805:

Maugetarr.6823:

Deathblossom needs to have the same directional targeting that warrior’s GS #3 (whirlwind attack) has. I wouldn’t remove the bleeds till we get a true condition weapon mainhand (axe?).
Dancing Dagger needs a projectile speed increase (33%), have a 1.0 multiplier, and not bounce or cripple. When it hits it marks the target and gives you a rollover skill that’s instant cast and 2 initiative. The rollover shadowsteps you to the marked target, cripples it for 3 seconds, and removes a condition (no damage). This would let it be used in conjunction with CnD.
Cloak and Dagger needs to blind and be 5 initiative.
I think the above changes help D/D with positioning and gap closing without making the set OP. Alternatively, instead of blinding it could steal a boon if they move CiS back down to master tier.

It must be remembered off hand dagger is also used on p/d as off hand. 4 can not just help power sets. Too many are biased towards condition builds and just want to marginalize them. (not speaking about you in particular)

It also used in s/d and i do not think s/d needs another port to skill with condition removal. what purpose would #2 serve over #4 on s/d? so while your idea could work nicely for d/d p/d what of s/d? What are the ramifications of a port 2 and a port away on p/d?

Those making proposals for #4 off hand dagger have to understand there two other weaponsets to consider.

Jana suggested CC and i think that a great idea. Ie a PULl could help p/d d/d and s/d. Someone asked how s/d fights DH on point. Well here is one way. Cnd lowering INi cost AND a blind does work as this gives advantages over d/p in total ini spent to stealth.

back to 4 ,maintain the cripple and it can also help p/d (pull into caltrops field Cnd sneak attack shadowstrike) The dancing dagger will go on and hit those other enemies crippling them while the first one struck gets affected by the pull. Also great for breaking defiance bars.

Pulls are unreliable. Adding a pull to it would turn it into a Scorpion Wire making it overpowered when it did work. Giving a second port to S/D would give it the ability to chase better (assuming they ever fix the exploit on sword 2). For P/D it would give them the ability to control the range of the fight, keeping in mind that the new dancing dagger + rollover would cost 5 initiative.

Pulls are very reliable on engineer and dragonhunter. adding second ports to both s/d and p/d is not sound game design. Duplication of skills across each slot makes for rather boring gameplay. One might as well just drop a slot as both will compete for the same ini.

I have no problems with chasing in my own s/d build. That said if an issue the #2 range can be tweaked up slightly.

I suggest a port in and out with p/d condition with both inflicting conditions will be far more overpowering then a pull. Remember a pull will eat INI which competes for condition application and a pull can e neutralized by stability of which enemy players have plenty of. It will not be OP.

On P/D it’s not redundant as it would function oppositely from shadowstrike, porting you to them and not away. While it seems redundant initially on S/D, the instant nature of the rollover would allow it to be used in conjuntion with Larcenous Strike and CnD helping it achieve a different goal when compared to infiltrators strike/return.

Jana.6831:

Azukas.1426:

Its not balanced nor do they balance the game based off it only in extreme select circumstances.

Knowing this since 2012 I find it amusing people still call for class changes based off it. LOL

What do you know about wvw? As much as about thief?

Cobrakon.3108:

D/D just needs to be brought in line with D/P and D/P doesn’t need a nerf.

How do you do that?
Hint: All other weapon sets get most of their utility from traits.
.

Here lies part of the problem with thief in general. D/P should be the model for our other weapon sets as it is relatively trait independent. A weapon set shouldn’t be forced to take a certain traitline to make it functional. It should be successful independent of the traits and the traits add unique boosts to how it plays. S/D fell out of favor because it was largely dependent on acro for the sustain boosts since it lacked burst. D/D builds were largely killed (aside from people hanging on to signet burst) by just a reorganization of traits within a line. We don’t need to make one of our last functional weapon sets trait dependent, pidgeonholing it into certain traitlines to simply work. Our other weaponsets need to be trait-independent.

babazhook.6805:

Maugetarr.6823:

Deathblossom needs to have the same directional targeting that warrior’s GS #3 (whirlwind attack) has. I wouldn’t remove the bleeds till we get a true condition weapon mainhand (axe?).
Dancing Dagger needs a projectile speed increase (33%), have a 1.0 multiplier, and not bounce or cripple. When it hits it marks the target and gives you a rollover skill that’s instant cast and 2 initiative. The rollover shadowsteps you to the marked target, cripples it for 3 seconds, and removes a condition (no damage). This would let it be used in conjunction with CnD.
Cloak and Dagger needs to blind and be 5 initiative.
I think the above changes help D/D with positioning and gap closing without making the set OP. Alternatively, instead of blinding it could steal a boon if they move CiS back down to master tier.

It must be remembered off hand dagger is also used on p/d as off hand. 4 can not just help power sets. Too many are biased towards condition builds and just want to marginalize them. (not speaking about you in particular)

It also used in s/d and i do not think s/d needs another port to skill with condition removal. what purpose would #2 serve over #4 on s/d? so while your idea could work nicely for d/d p/d what of s/d? What are the ramifications of a port 2 and a port away on p/d?

Those making proposals for #4 off hand dagger have to understand there two other weaponsets to consider.

Jana suggested CC and i think that a great idea. Ie a PULl could help p/d d/d and s/d. Someone asked how s/d fights DH on point. Well here is one way. Cnd lowering INi cost AND a blind does work as this gives advantages over d/p in total ini spent to stealth.

back to 4 ,maintain the cripple and it can also help p/d (pull into caltrops field Cnd sneak attack shadowstrike) The dancing dagger will go on and hit those other enemies crippling them while the first one struck gets affected by the pull. Also great for breaking defiance bars.

Pulls are unreliable. Adding a pull to it would turn it into a Scorpion Wire making it overpowered when it did work. Giving a second port to S/D would give it the ability to chase better (assuming they ever fix the exploit on sword 2). For P/D it would give them the ability to control the range of the fight, keeping in mind that the new dancing dagger + rollover would cost 5 initiative.

Deathblossom needs to have the same directional targeting that warrior’s GS #3 (whirlwind attack) has. I wouldn’t remove the bleeds till we get a true condition weapon mainhand (axe?).
Dancing Dagger needs a projectile speed increase (33%), have a 1.0 multiplier, and not bounce or cripple. When it hits it marks the target and gives you a rollover skill that’s instant cast and 2 initiative. The rollover shadowsteps you to the marked target, cripples it for 3 seconds, and removes a condition (no damage). This would let it be used in conjunction with CnD.
Cloak and Dagger needs to blind and be 5 initiative.
I think the above changes help D/D with positioning and gap closing without making the set OP. Alternatively, instead of blinding it could steal a boon if they move CiS back down to master tier.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Thief has reveal — albeit it is self-inflicted

Came here looking for this comment.

GenoGar.5497:

As a warrior main and thief secondary, I am no stranger to the lack of Dev love our classes get.

However, I find it odd that anyone with a class in this current state would ever call for nerfs for their own class.

As an example from the Warrior forums, the Greatsword is pretty much the universal weapon for Warriors, required for Greataxe and required for Phalanx Strength (and consequently raids). It is determined that the culprit of this dominance is the trait Forceful Greatsword which is probably the best Master trait in the entire game, giving a huge damage modifier, 20% CD reduction, and Might on critical without an ICD.

However, gutting the Greatsword is not the way to go. Why would anyone want to shoot Greatsword in the foot just to make other terrible weapons look better? Why not just make the terrible weapons better? That analogy with the 3 starving children with 1 fat one… it’s more like 3 starving children cannibalizing the 1 fat one. So now you have 3 somewhat nourished but still miserable children and 1 dead one. Is the problem that the one kid was fat and got chocolate? No, it’s because the kitten parent isn’t feeding their dam kids (ANet, hello). You should be happy that one kid is actually relatively successful rather than being spiteful you don’t get chocolate.

As you are all PvPers and WvWers, you all should roughly know that Warriors are all forced into a Defense trait line while using 3 stances + 1 or 2 traited stances. Warriors complain that they’re all forced to use stances to even be good because they’re bad without them. Do we want stances nerfed into the ground? No… Do you think if ANet gutted Stances with a knife, they would somehow actually make other garbage utilities better (Keyword here: garbage utilities)? No… The thing is that there is a much more underlying problem with the warrior as a class.

So all this talk about D/P and other weapon sets is pretty odd. In my eyes, D/P is successful at what it sets out to do and has its own flaws. It’s probably the best designed and balanced set. Other weapons are either well designed and terribly balanced… or terribly designed and well balanced (or terribly designed and terribly balanced… what I thought of P/P for a while). D/P being well designed/balanced does not in any way limit the design space or balance of the other weapon sets: the problem is the other weapon sets limiting their own design space or being terribly tuned or balanced.

I thought this was a great comparison with warrior’s Greatsword as it has mobiluty, evasion, and decent situational damage.

D/P and Staff really are the 2 best balanced and tuned sets. OH dagger is the main offender here imo, with some undertuned dual skills being the secondary problem (Deathblossom, FS/LS, Pistol Whip).

Well right now thief autos average about 15% lower than necro dagger auto, ele lighting dagger auto, and warrior axe auto, while we lack access to their might stacking and (in combat) survivability. After this boost we’ll be 8-13% higher than those 3, bringing our sustained damage in line with them and increasing the reward for the risk.

It seems, based on their description, that we are a suitably high risk class with all the reveal, blocks, invulns, and general counterplay knowledge added since release. Now it seems that we need better rewards instead of decreased risk. Sustained damage (autos) are the better way to go because an improvement to burst would either lead to complaints about people being instagibed or would be absorbed by an autoproc. We’ll see how it goes though.

Jana.6831:

Maugetarr.6823:

Jana.6831:

Maugetarr.6823:

Jana.6831:

Maugetarr.6823:

Jana.6831:

Maugetarr.6823:

Jana.6831:

I might have missed the point – I just don’t want DB to be changed and all I can say is that it worked for me. Not to apply condis but to escape. If that skill were to changed to be directional = 2 clicks and even more positioning it would become useless to me as “activating it” would take too long – the beauty of it now is that I can easily reposition. So I do hope those who want a directional targeting aren’t doing it because they “would play D/D if only this was changed” (only to stick to D/P anyway while D/D is ruined for those who genuinly play it).
How I used DB: Opponent comes running to me, I use DB, he runs past down under me, I turn, CnD and BS. Worked every time but I didn’t use it in every fight – DB is a very situational skill but still not useless.

That’s the idea of making it ground targeted like whirlwind attack. It raises the skill floor without nerfing the skill and leaves it situationally useful for power with the evade and reposition.

Great but with that you would ruin it for power D/D – thank you =)

ETA: And btw it wouldn’t add more skill but annoyance to the game play.

The directable slide adds utility allowing you to reposition better. It doesn’t nerf power D/D.

But I’m fine, why do I need any directional whatever that does take me thrice as long until the skill is activated – that is a nerf that ruins the skill.

It takes the same amount of time. Enable fast cast with indicator.

No, it takes a lot longer – warrior GS takes me a while to cast as well and they have a lot more sustain to take a hit.

I guess it would be then, but I enjoy the flexibility for it being virtually as quick as a dodge and the hold and fire timing to whirl through someone attacking you.

That’s nice, then play warrior and don’t assume that they way this skill works for warrior works for every class?

ETA: That came out harsher than I intended – just that I’m sooo tired of people talking about D/D as if they know it. Maybe 3% of players actually do (when it comes to pvp/wvw – I guess there are still a lot who know how to make the set work in PvE).

Well, I was playing D/D mainly the year (and longer) before the nerf to FG with a 25/0/0/15/30 build since it could cover up the shortcomings of the set. With every class getting a moderate boost, even Daredevil can’t cover it up with the 3 full traitlines now. I just want D/D to get some utility back and having that directional evade would do that (imo) along with improvements to the the other OH dagger skills.

Jana.6831:

Maugetarr.6823:

Jana.6831:

Maugetarr.6823:

Jana.6831:

Maugetarr.6823:

Jana.6831:

I might have missed the point – I just don’t want DB to be changed and all I can say is that it worked for me. Not to apply condis but to escape. If that skill were to changed to be directional = 2 clicks and even more positioning it would become useless to me as “activating it” would take too long – the beauty of it now is that I can easily reposition. So I do hope those who want a directional targeting aren’t doing it because they “would play D/D if only this was changed” (only to stick to D/P anyway while D/D is ruined for those who genuinly play it).
How I used DB: Opponent comes running to me, I use DB, he runs past down under me, I turn, CnD and BS. Worked every time but I didn’t use it in every fight – DB is a very situational skill but still not useless.

That’s the idea of making it ground targeted like whirlwind attack. It raises the skill floor without nerfing the skill and leaves it situationally useful for power with the evade and reposition.

Great but with that you would ruin it for power D/D – thank you =)

ETA: And btw it wouldn’t add more skill but annoyance to the game play.

The directable slide adds utility allowing you to reposition better. It doesn’t nerf power D/D.

But I’m fine, why do I need any directional whatever that does take me thrice as long until the skill is activated – that is a nerf that ruins the skill.

It takes the same amount of time. Enable fast cast with indicator.

No, it takes a lot longer – warrior GS takes me a while to cast as well and they have a lot more sustain to take a hit.

I guess it would be then, but I enjoy the flexibility for it being virtually as quick as a dodge and the hold and fire timing to whirl through someone attacking you.

If anything, a dark field, but after playing staff for a while now, it probably doesn’t need stealth from weapon skills.

Jana.6831:

Maugetarr.6823:

Jana.6831:

Maugetarr.6823:

Jana.6831:

I might have missed the point – I just don’t want DB to be changed and all I can say is that it worked for me. Not to apply condis but to escape. If that skill were to changed to be directional = 2 clicks and even more positioning it would become useless to me as “activating it” would take too long – the beauty of it now is that I can easily reposition. So I do hope those who want a directional targeting aren’t doing it because they “would play D/D if only this was changed” (only to stick to D/P anyway while D/D is ruined for those who genuinly play it).
How I used DB: Opponent comes running to me, I use DB, he runs past down under me, I turn, CnD and BS. Worked every time but I didn’t use it in every fight – DB is a very situational skill but still not useless.

That’s the idea of making it ground targeted like whirlwind attack. It raises the skill floor without nerfing the skill and leaves it situationally useful for power with the evade and reposition.

Great but with that you would ruin it for power D/D – thank you =)

ETA: And btw it wouldn’t add more skill but annoyance to the game play.

The directable slide adds utility allowing you to reposition better. It doesn’t nerf power D/D.

But I’m fine, why do I need any directional whatever that does take me thrice as long until the skill is activated – that is a nerf that ruins the skill.

It takes the same amount of time. Enable fast cast with indicator.

Varezenem.2813:

Petoox.6570:

Varezenem.2813:

Dagger AA is getting buffed by 30%. Sword AA will get a speed increase (30%) being stronger than rev sword AA now and acrobatics is getting some sustain improvements. Withdraw is getting the 10% heal buff that it was supposed to have.

Better than Rev sword autoattack? What are you smoking..?

Not complaining, I love the sword buffs but Rev sword auto will still be better.

http://i.imgur.com/ZON2eTT.png you won’t do this with thief sword.

Rev sword chain has a modifier of 3.15 (after patch 2.735) and takes 2.04 seconds having a 1.544 dps* (after patch 1.34 dps).
Thief sword chain has a modifier of 2.9 and takes currently 2.52 after patch it’ll take 1.93 secs which is a 1.5 dps.
*dps in this case refers to the power modifier divided by the amount of time it takes to execute the chain.

The controllable quickness makes up for the difference. I think they finally decided to buff our autos because we lack huge might stacks and controllable buffs. Since we lack the boon access, our flat damage and animations are getting improved much like what they mentioned they were doing to warrior (who also lacks boons outside of some mediocre might access).

Jana.6831:

Maugetarr.6823:

Jana.6831:

I might have missed the point – I just don’t want DB to be changed and all I can say is that it worked for me. Not to apply condis but to escape. If that skill were to changed to be directional = 2 clicks and even more positioning it would become useless to me as “activating it” would take too long – the beauty of it now is that I can easily reposition. So I do hope those who want a directional targeting aren’t doing it because they “would play D/D if only this was changed” (only to stick to D/P anyway while D/D is ruined for those who genuinly play it).
How I used DB: Opponent comes running to me, I use DB, he runs past down under me, I turn, CnD and BS. Worked every time but I didn’t use it in every fight – DB is a very situational skill but still not useless.

That’s the idea of making it ground targeted like whirlwind attack. It raises the skill floor without nerfing the skill and leaves it situationally useful for power with the evade and reposition.

Great but with that you would ruin it for power D/D – thank you =)

ETA: And btw it wouldn’t add more skill but annoyance to the game play.

The directable slide adds utility allowing you to reposition better. It doesn’t nerf power D/D.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

“Heavy dmg buff” ? Most of our sustained dps came from fire and air sigils anyway. Only sword needed to be looked at anyway.

Well, the damage buff to sword and not the others would leave the other sets behind. I’m going to quote myself from another thread for the rest of the response.

Really we’re just being brought into line with some other classes. For reference, warrior’s axe auto runs at 1.38 mult/sec, ele’s lightning dagger auto at 1.32, and necro dagger at 1.33. If all of our sets get buffed by ~30% we’ll be sitting around 1.5 mult/sec which is 8-13% higher than those without access to their large stacks of might or their survivability.

Jana.6831:

I might have missed the point – I just don’t want DB to be changed and all I can say is that it worked for me. Not to apply condis but to escape. If that skill were to changed to be directional = 2 clicks and even more positioning it would become useless to me as “activating it” would take too long – the beauty of it now is that I can easily reposition. So I do hope those who want a directional targeting aren’t doing it because they “would play D/D if only this was changed” (only to stick to D/P anyway while D/D is ruined for those who genuinly play it).
How I used DB: Opponent comes running to me, I use DB, he runs past down under me, I turn, CnD and BS. Worked every time but I didn’t use it in every fight – DB is a very situational skill but still not useless.

That’s the idea of making it ground targeted like whirlwind attack. It raises the skill floor without nerfing the skill and leaves it situationally useful for power with the evade and reposition.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Their main argument is we have more stealth than them, we have more mobility than them and more burst damage, those are their main reasons saying we are hard counters and we will be even more so once the patch hits. In pve I play my Mesmer for raids and such so I lurk around their forums and it’s appalling I thought thieves were all doom and gloom but our forums are optimistic comparatively.

Well, we have a lot of complaint threads but also a lot of constructive ideas. I mean the sword auto aftercast reduction and the rollover of Bandit’s Defense came from this forum, so I guess someone is reading our input.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Jana.6831:

Ithilwen.1529:

@Serious Thought.5394

Please stop trolling the Mesmer forum.

My first main was Thief. I migrated to Mesmer and love the class. Yep, Thief getting some love is a good thing. The problem is that they hamstrung Mesmer in the process.

The long term result is likely to be that the “nerf x” cry will hit thief next. I wish ANET had better sense and didn’t make such radical moves.

How is thief the reason that mesmer gets nerfed?

It’s not that Thieves got Mesmers nerfed, but the Mesmers are crying saying Thieves are the ultimate hard counter to them and are calling for the death off Thieves before the patch even hits.

Yeah, I’ve been lurking in the PvP and mesmer forums and it seems pretty doom and gloom, however they got a lot of stuff in the patch before HoT putting them on par with thieves. Most of the nerfs seem related to chronomancer (except chaos armor) so we’ll see how it shakes out. The preview was pretty short so I think most stuff wasn’t mentioned.

I wasn’t going to step in it there though by saying wait and see.

DeceiverX.8361:

Maugetarr.6823:

Deathblossom needs to have the same directional targeting that warrior’s GS #3 (whirlwind attack) has. I wouldn’t remove the bleeds till we get a true condition weapon mainhand (axe?).
Dancing Dagger needs a projectile speed increase (33%), have a 1.0 multiplier, and not bounce or cripple. When it hits it marks the target and gives you a rollover skill that’s instant cast and 2 initiative. The rollover shadowsteps you to the marked target, cripples it for 3 seconds, and removes a condition (no damage). This would let it be used in conjunction with CnD.
Cloak and Dagger needs to blind and be 5 initiative.
I think the above changes help D/D with positioning and gap closing without making the set OP or needing to nerf D/P, although Shadowshot could have its damage reduced.

I proposed a similar idea to distribute condi use into P/D better, take out the safety that is D/D condi evasion cheese to make it a real build, and bump the stickiness on D/D overall for power builds while resolving the core issues with Dancing Dagger’s low base damage and high scaling potential on power builds, as seen below:

DeceiverX.8361:

This is kind of where they were trying to push DT. The problem is that it can’t be 100% the way it is now, because then Death Blossom spam would be completely absurd dealing 3 bleed and 3 poison.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again:

Dagger Training Should apply poison to each auto attack at a 100% chance, and just the auto. Remove the bleed from Death Blossom, and put it on Dancing Dagger. Buff Dancing Dagger’s damage by 50% and remove the ability for it to hit the same target multiple times, and just have it hit the target and up to three nearby enemies.
Death Blossom should be reworked into a multi-hit evading lunge with better range than it has now, similar to Whirlwind Attack (Warrior GS3), at the cost of an additional initiative, giving the set more mobility and stickiness to compete with D/P and some evasion and disengage potential to keep it stylized in between S/D.

This improves power D/D through a better evade and more useful and consistent Dancing Dagger, and lets condi D/x get better and more reliable condition application while increasing the skill cap and not making it overwhelming with DD.

It was rejected in length by a D/D condi player because “death blossom spam is fun and requires skill to time” (lol), that “death blossom should not require more skill than an evade” (lol) and “combo finishers on multiple bounces from Dancing Dagger are very useful” (lol).

There’s going to be resistance as long as the class requires more than two buttons to play or requires some amount of intellect, even if such proposals lead to net buffs. In the case of what someone mentioned above, he proclaimed D/P required more skill than D/D, which is either completely untrue in the case of power, or just as spammy and bad-friendly in the case of conditions.

It irks me sPvP has gotten people so competitive and so upset about balance due to the massive imbalance of the game that we’re left with mostly FoTM players who aren’t willing to make balance compromises and reward skillful play while punishing bad play; instead they just want to be overpowered for free wins for no legitimate reason.

Yeah, I think you and I have been suggesting that change for quite a while and it’s always met with mixed responses.

Azukas.1426:

Maugetarr.6823:

Cynz.9437:

She wants shadowshot to get nerfed. I do not see how it is justified given thief state in pvp right now (and even after patch). Her idea of destroying thief completely for the sake of eventual rework (that will probably never come) is also silly because by the time devs actually come up with something and implement it, a lot of time would pass and most remaining thief players would quit this game.

The only thing that could be nerfed on shadowshot is the damage. The argument could (and has) been made that the damage is too high for the utility. That said, it’s not dominating other classes. It has a 1.31 multiplier which is somewhere between a mid and high level heartserker. This could be brought down to a 1.1 or 1.2 making it roughly equivalent to (current) dagger autoattack DPS.

Due to the large amount of AoE and blocks, I would also recommend removing the directionality of Tactical Strike and Backstab and rename backstab to Unsuspecting Strike, but that’s a topic for a different day.

1. skill on DP and PD do the same damage tho….

I’ve actually gotten power bursted to down from sneak attack>shadow atrike>steal>shadow strike.

True, but the difference is that it takes utilities to repeat shadowstrike repeatedly as it ports you away whereas shadowshot ports you to them.

Really we’re just being brought into line with some other classes. For reference, warrior’s axe auto runs at 1.38 mult/sec, ele’s lightning dagger auto at 1.32, and necro dagger at 1.33. If all of our sets get buffed by ~30% we’ll be sitting around 1.5 mult/sec which is 8-13% higher than those without access to their large stacks of might or their survivability.

Cynz.9437:

She wants shadowshot to get nerfed. I do not see how it is justified given thief state in pvp right now (and even after patch). Her idea of destroying thief completely for the sake of eventual rework (that will probably never come) is also silly because by the time devs actually come up with something and implement it, a lot of time would pass and most remaining thief players would quit this game.

The only thing that could be nerfed on shadowshot is the damage. The argument could (and has) been made that the damage is too high for the utility. That said, it’s not dominating other classes. It has a 1.31 multiplier which is somewhere between a mid and high level heartserker. This could be brought down to a 1.1 or 1.2 making it roughly equivalent to (current) dagger autoattack DPS.

Due to the large amount of AoE and blocks, I would also recommend removing the directionality of Tactical Strike and Backstab and rename backstab to Unsuspecting Strike, but that’s a topic for a different day.

Jana.6831:

I already said that =) Even in the OP as far as I can remember.

Let me put it this way:
As long as D/P is unchanged all other thief weaponsets will remain weak in comparison

Unless anet becomes genius and manages to buff all other weaponsets according their style – which is pretty hard. It’d be easier to nerf D/P the weaponset and buff thief the traits – so that D/P have to sacrifice for all the utility they get.

Alright, let’s look at nerfing D/P for a second. The only thing that doesn’t affect other weapon sets would be nerfing Shadowshot. I guess we could nerf the damage, range, and projectile speed, however 4 out of the 5 skills would still be good. We could nerf BPS to be a dark field, but that affects P/P and S/P daredevils. Nerfing headshot would affect the same sets. You could nerf autos and heartseeker, but that would affect D/D which you’re trying to help. Every change except for 1 would affect a much larger swath of weapons than you intend, showing why that’s a bad path to go down.

Alternatively, buffing OH dagger would buff P/D, S/D, and D/D without affecting or buffing D/P. A change to Pistol Whip could be done to bring that set up to the level of staff (changing the dual skill entirely).

P/P #1, 2, and 3 can be balanced without affecting anything else other than P/D 1 and 2.

Nerfing D/P is the entirely wrong way to go to achieve the results you want. Other than nerfing Shadowshot, doing anything would adversely affect sets that are already underperfoming. Buffing X/D and looking at all of the dual skills individually is the best option to bring them all to roughly the same level after which traits can be addressed making all weaponsets rise and fall together.

@Jana: I think the premise of your argument is wrong. While D/P may be the most cohesive and strongest thief weaponset, that doesn’t mean that it’s strong relative to other classes. Even if you haven’t played lately, just look through all of the recent threads post HoT mentioning how weak thief is, including D/P. Pre-HoT D/P was really only fulfilling the +1 and decap role.

So I’ll put it this way: D/P only seems strong because the other weapon sets are so weak. Those can be adjusted independently through rebalancing weapon skills so as no to simultaneously boost D/P.

Deathblossom needs to have the same directional targeting that warrior’s GS #3 (whirlwind attack) has. I wouldn’t remove the bleeds till we get a true condition weapon mainhand (axe?).
Dancing Dagger needs a projectile speed increase (33%), have a 1.0 multiplier, and not bounce or cripple. When it hits it marks the target and gives you a rollover skill that’s instant cast and 2 initiative. The rollover shadowsteps you to the marked target, cripples it for 3 seconds, and removes a condition (no damage). This would let it be used in conjunction with CnD.
Cloak and Dagger needs to blind and be 5 initiative.
I think the above changes help D/D with positioning and gap closing without making the set OP or needing to nerf D/P, although Shadowshot could have its damage reduced.