Guild Wars 2

Azukas.1426:

I can’t believe ppl base thier opinion off of WvW

LOL

why is this funny?

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Azukas.1426:

I can’t believe ppl base thier opinion off of WvW

LOL

why is this funny?

Its not balanced nor do they balance the game based off it only in extreme select circumstances.

Knowing this since 2012 I find it amusing people still call for class changes based off it. LOL

D/D just needs to be brought in line with D/P and D/P doesn’t need a nerf.

Azukas.1426:

Its not balanced nor do they balance the game based off it only in extreme select circumstances.

Knowing this since 2012 I find it amusing people still call for class changes based off it. LOL

What do you know about wvw? As much as about thief?

Cobrakon.3108:

D/D just needs to be brought in line with D/P and D/P doesn’t need a nerf.

How do you do that?
Hint: All other weapon sets get most of their utility from traits.
(Meaning that D/P has got at least twice as many utilities than every other set)
(I already wrote that in the OP – but I’m open for a discussion about this very sub topic – that was what I kind of hoped for, I think).

D/P 3 needs an init cost increase, a cast time increase, or a damage reduction (or a combination thereof)
So in that vein, D/P does need nerfed and other weapon sets buffed as well to allow for a more equal field amongst the weapons.

This however is assuming the other professions are nerfed/changed as well as to not completely push Thief out of viability.

ZvolTx.3165:

D/P 3 needs an init cost increase, a cast time increase, or a damage reduction (or a combination thereof)
So in that vein, D/P does need nerfed and other weapon sets buffed as well to allow for a more equal field amongst the weapons.

This however is assuming the other professions are nerfed/changed as well as to not completely push Thief out of viability.

They won’t nerf other profs for sake of thief.

ZvolTx.3165:

D/P 3 needs an init cost increase, a cast time increase, or a damage reduction (or a combination thereof)
So in that vein, D/P does need nerfed and other weapon sets buffed as well to allow for a more equal field amongst the weapons.

This however is assuming the other professions are nerfed/changed as well as to not completely push Thief out of viability.

Why? What would that help anywhere else?

Same with Jana, I agree utility is lacking. But why would you nerf D/P for it? Why wouldn’t you add in blind to Dagger 5? Which would help both S/D and D/D? There are plenty of ways to bring those lines up without gutting our only semi struggling line.

A blind on CnD will not even begin to cover the disparity between the sets. CnD is weak because it doesn’t hit from all the block/invuln/blind spamming going on. Skills 3 and 4 need complete reworks on current traits, but now that D/D condi is a “thing” since HoT via the buffs to 3spam + Daredevil, nobody playing D/D can agree what needs to change, because a lot of people want to continue 3spam, and we can’t just buff Dancing Dagger so immensely. Shadow Shot is pretty much carrying D/P as well at the moment, and the buffs to BP coming in a few days could potentially justify a damage decrease.

Jana.6831:

Azukas.1426:

Its not balanced nor do they balance the game based off it only in extreme select circumstances.

Knowing this since 2012 I find it amusing people still call for class changes based off it. LOL

What do you know about wvw? As much as about thief?

Cobrakon.3108:

D/D just needs to be brought in line with D/P and D/P doesn’t need a nerf.

How do you do that?
Hint: All other weapon sets get most of their utility from traits.
.

Here lies part of the problem with thief in general. D/P should be the model for our other weapon sets as it is relatively trait independent. A weapon set shouldn’t be forced to take a certain traitline to make it functional. It should be successful independent of the traits and the traits add unique boosts to how it plays. S/D fell out of favor because it was largely dependent on acro for the sustain boosts since it lacked burst. D/D builds were largely killed (aside from people hanging on to signet burst) by just a reorganization of traits within a line. We don’t need to make one of our last functional weapon sets trait dependent, pidgeonholing it into certain traitlines to simply work. Our other weaponsets need to be trait-independent.

Alright, then question to you guys, how would you buff the other weapon sets to make them equal with D/P?
We all need the same stuff that D/P has got on its set – but I kind of think that it’s be more exciting if we weren’t stuck in a certain playstyle but could chose our own. So, if a S/D thief decides he wants to play stealthless (which most of them did anyway) – why would he need CnD and or CiS? f.e. (If other weapons were given more utility) – like I said; half of our traits are useless – and that after a trait merge, which is pretty sad when you think about it – you could easily replace them and put utility for weapons on them – maybe the same is true for other classes.

Edit: Spelling

Many other classes’ weapons have niche purposes for optimal use. That said, most of these skills have general use.

Thief working with the initiative mechanic is both great and horrible for the reason that while other classes will always use their full set of skills, and skills are designed to be well-rounded and impactful, the thief needs tools that need to be both impactful but not overly-so as to prevent spamming the same skill to be a viable means of play: See Shadow Shot and Death Blossom.

Most S/D thieves use CnD intermittently. The stealth attacks on Sword are actually very strong control effects, and flickering stealth between evades is a big part of how the set plays. Just going pure stealth-less damage and evasion falls more into the lines of S/P due to interruption/evasion/CC/blind field but no way to gain stealth aside from bound on Daredevil.

Overall I think the thief’s weapons are fairly well designed. Shadow Shot’s damage is definitely over-tuned on D/P, but the set plays cohesively. Same with S/D, S/P, P/D, and to an extent, P/P. Only a few skill changes are needed on most of these sets to give them a bit more oomph. D/D suffers because ANet doesn’t seem to have an idea as to what they want the set to do, not because of trait mis-alignment or low ability potency. Because its condi and power styles play so differently, the skills feel inversely weak depending on build, and because of this, there is no room to create sound utility. Daredevil coming into the mix also really screwed this up, as now you also have things like S/P getting stealth access when it was designed not to.

Jana.6831:

Alright, then question to you guys, how would you buff the other weapon sets to make them equal with D/P?
We all need the same stuff that D/P has got on its set – but I kind of think that it’s be more exciting if we weren’t stuck in a certain playstyle but could chose our own. So, if a S/D thief decides he wants to play stealthless (which most of them did anyway) – why would he need CnD and or CiS? f.e. (If other weapons were given more utility) – like I said; half of our traits are useless – and that after a trait merge, which is pretty sad when you think about it – you could easily replace them and put utility for weapons on them – maybe the same is true for other classes.

Edit: Spelling

Well, that’s where a shadowstep on dagger offhand would help. D/D lacks the gap closers and just the ability to stick to the target in general. Giving it a solid shadowstep and condi clear mitigates the necessity of a lower steal CD and shadows embrace. Giving CnD a blind and lowering the initiative to 5 gives more chances for it to hit with the high number of blocks flying around and removes the need for CiS.

As someone pointed out in another thread, the Shadow step on X/D 4 might be slightly redundant with S/D, but overall I think it would improve the ability to stick to mobile targets in combat without having to step back and forth with S/D 2.

I just fear a shadowstep on OH Dagger 4 would allow s/d to get too much engage/disengage potential.

DeceiverX.8361:

I just fear a shadowstep on OH Dagger 4 would allow s/d to get too much engage/disengage potential.

P/d would get too much as well.

DeceiverX.8361:

Many other classes’ weapons have niche purposes for optimal use. That said, most of these skills have general use.

Thief working with the initiative mechanic is both great and horrible for the reason that while other classes will always use their full set of skills, and skills are designed to be well-rounded and impactful, the thief needs tools that need to be both impactful but not overly-so as to prevent spamming the same skill to be a viable means of play: See Shadow Shot and Death Blossom.

Most S/D thieves use CnD intermittently. The stealth attacks on Sword are actually very strong control effects, and flickering stealth between evades is a big part of how the set plays. Just going pure stealth-less damage and evasion falls more into the lines of S/P due to interruption/evasion/CC/blind field but no way to gain stealth aside from bound on Daredevil.

Overall I think the thief’s weapons are fairly well designed. Shadow Shot’s damage is definitely over-tuned on D/P, but the set plays cohesively. Same with S/D, S/P, P/D, and to an extent, P/P. Only a few skill changes are needed on most of these sets to give them a bit more oomph. D/D suffers because ANet doesn’t seem to have an idea as to what they want the set to do, not because of trait mis-alignment or low ability potency. Because its condi and power styles play so differently, the skills feel inversely weak depending on build, and because of this, there is no room to create sound utility. Daredevil coming into the mix also really screwed this up, as now you also have things like S/P getting stealth access when it was designed not to.

I think S/P has largely not been as successful as D/P because of its dual skill. The windup and root kill it as an evasive set.
P/D had a great dual skill, but the autos are low pressure and body shot is highly situational. It also suffers from the the weak OH dagger.
P/P has just too low sustained pressure except for unload, but as such is an initiative hog that doesn’t allow for the use of defensive skills. I almost feel like the blog post was talking about this set when they mentioned needing initiative for survivability but also requiring it for damage. I’m hoping unload gets a similar treatment as warrior’s rifle 4 and much of the damage is moved to the autoattack and P/X 2.
I just want to echo you in that D/D suffers the most because of the lack of both utility and damage of dagger offhand combined with the disjointed nature of deathblossom within the set.

DeceiverX.8361:

I just fear a shadowstep on OH Dagger 4 would allow s/d to get too much engage/disengage potential.

It would up the engage potential, but not the disengage.

Deceiver:
Most S/D thieves never use CnD – I only met one who did. I know the skill is strong, still a lot of them believe in stealthless play or don’t even know what the dagger is good for.
Not being able to take CiS and SRej was pretty devastating for that set. Also the SE nerf hurt a lot.
In my time as a wvw roamer I’ve met maybe 75? D/D thieves. 3 of them tried DB spam – condi D/D is new, D/D itself is pretty much dead and has been for the past 2 years. Just saying – things haven’t been fine for quite some time and condi D/D has become a thing with daredevil – it basically didn’t exist before.

Maugetarr:
There were quite a few thieves on one of my server who ran D/D and S/P – but yes it is a nice set and everything it just doesn’t fit thief as everything about thief is being mobile. Maybe that’s my issue with staff – it isn’t really fluid and my wrist hurts from the awkward angle I have to force it into to get the AoE circle right on top of “me”.

In general:
Then how about designing some traits especially suited for S/D, D/D, D/P, P/D and even P/P? – it would be new in this game but it could be done: “If you’re wielding mainhand sword/offhand dagger…” or “Mainhand sword and offhand dagger”

ETA: You can be smart and give only one buff to the designated weapon which basically forces S/D to pick this, D/D that trait or invent a trait which is suited for different play styles. I would probably chose the “stick to your enemy and blind them” option wheras a S/D thief likely would go for “evade and cripple” – but both can make sense depending the style.

Deceiver:
Most S/D thieves never use CnD – I only met one who did. I know the skill is strong, still a lot of them believe in stealthless play or don’t even know what the dagger is good for.
Not being able to take CiS and SRej was pretty devastating for that set. Also the SE nerf hurt a lot.
In my time as a wvw roamer I’ve met maybe 75? D/D thieves. 3 of them tried DB spam – condi D/D is new, D/D itself is pretty much dead and has been for the past 2 years. Just saying – things haven’t been fine for quite some time and condi D/D has become a thing with daredevil – it basically didn’t exist before.

Maugetarr:
There were quite a few thieves on one of my server who ran D/D and S/P – but yes it is a nice set and everything it just doesn’t fit thief as everything about thief is being mobile. Maybe that’s my issue with staff – it isn’t really fluid and my wrist hurts from the awkward angle I have to force it into to get the AoE circle right on top of “me”.

In general:
Then how about designing some traits especially suited for S/D, D/D, D/P, P/D and even P/P? – it would be new in this game but it could be done: “If you’re wielding mainhand sword/offhand dagger…” or “Mainhand sword and offhand dagger”

ETA²: It was probably less than 75 D/D thieves. I usually became friends with them – that’s how rare they were.

Maugetarr.6823:

DeceiverX.8361:

Many other classes’ weapons have niche purposes for optimal use. That said, most of these skills have general use.

Thief working with the initiative mechanic is both great and horrible for the reason that while other classes will always use their full set of skills, and skills are designed to be well-rounded and impactful, the thief needs tools that need to be both impactful but not overly-so as to prevent spamming the same skill to be a viable means of play: See Shadow Shot and Death Blossom.

Most S/D thieves use CnD intermittently. The stealth attacks on Sword are actually very strong control effects, and flickering stealth between evades is a big part of how the set plays. Just going pure stealth-less damage and evasion falls more into the lines of S/P due to interruption/evasion/CC/blind field but no way to gain stealth aside from bound on Daredevil.

Overall I think the thief’s weapons are fairly well designed. Shadow Shot’s damage is definitely over-tuned on D/P, but the set plays cohesively. Same with S/D, S/P, P/D, and to an extent, P/P. Only a few skill changes are needed on most of these sets to give them a bit more oomph. D/D suffers because ANet doesn’t seem to have an idea as to what they want the set to do, not because of trait mis-alignment or low ability potency. Because its condi and power styles play so differently, the skills feel inversely weak depending on build, and because of this, there is no room to create sound utility. Daredevil coming into the mix also really screwed this up, as now you also have things like S/P getting stealth access when it was designed not to.

I think S/P has largely not been as successful as D/P because of its dual skill. The windup and root kill it as an evasive set.
P/D had a great dual skill, but the autos are low pressure and body shot is highly situational. It also suffers from the the weak OH dagger.
P/P has just too low sustained pressure except for unload, but as such is an initiative hog that doesn’t allow for the use of defensive skills. I almost feel like the blog post was talking about this set when they mentioned needing initiative for survivability but also requiring it for damage. I’m hoping unload gets a similar treatment as warrior’s rifle 4 and much of the damage is moved to the autoattack and P/X 2.
I just want to echo you in that D/D suffers the most because of the lack of both utility and damage of dagger offhand combined with the disjointed nature of deathblossom within the set.

Just thinking high-level skill design. Key word is design rather than numbers like cast times and damage spread, etc.

Jana.6831:

Deceiver:
Most S/D thieves never use CnD – I only met one who did. I know the skill is strong, still a lot of them believe in stealthless play or don’t even know what the dagger is good for.
Not being able to take CiS and SRej was pretty devastating for that set. Also the SE nerf hurt a lot.
In my time as a wvw roamer I’ve met maybe 75? D/D thieves. 3 of them tried DB spam – condi D/D is new, D/D itself is pretty much dead and has been for the past 2 years. Just saying – things haven’t been fine for quite some time and condi D/D has become a thing with daredevil – it basically didn’t exist before.

…

In general:
Then how about designing some traits especially suited for S/D, D/D, D/P, P/D and even P/P? – it would be new in this game but it could be done: “If you’re wielding mainhand sword/offhand dagger…” or “Mainhand sword and offhand dagger”

And the thieves who do not ever use CnD when playing S/D are people not using the set to its fullest potential, or are just so much better than their opponent that it isn’t needed.

There’s a difference between believing in stealth-less play and simply not ever using stealth at all. I hate stealth despite playing D/D + S/D. As soon as I enter stealth, I re-position and leave it for damage, control, etc. That said, that 1/2 second period I need to be in stealth to execute the stealth attack is just necessary, just as how many staff players are using SA to get hook strike procs more frequently; it’s not about stealth but the ability attached to it.

I’ve never run CiS or Rejuv outside of some Duel Arena trolling with things like my P/P healing power build. To say they’re necessary traits, especially for D/D or S/D simply isn’t true. SE also got buffed. Tremendously. 4s of cripple or brief of blind off a random AoE or skill like The Prestige doesn’t take priority any more over 19 stacks of bleeding or 14 stacks of confusion, which is quite common for condi builds to do as a strategy to prevent low-cooldown cleanses from just wiping off their stacks. Withdraw and SE will cleanse all debilitating conditions except slow + one DoT, except for Fear and Taunt, and fear doesn’t really matter at that point, and if you got taunted while in stealth, good on the guy doing the taunting for countering stealth properly. Much better than having to wait 9s for the absurd stacks of bleeding/torment/confusion (pre-burning/poison stack change) to get cleansed. Rejuv is functionally better on D/P because it maintains stealth better than D/D since D/D needs to hit the target whereas BP + HS/Bound doesn’t.

D/D condi didn’t really “exist” before because P/D was better at sustain in WvW and the evasion frames on old DB were strictly poor, both for power and condition builds. Daredevil didn’t really change much except some better overall condition coverage while maintaining near-permaneny evasion uptime; all conditions applied via Lotus Training exited via DA or baseline on the dagger. Daredevil just offers better and safer play, particularly after nerfed Acrobatics, making 3spam easier and more forgiving on top of the buffed evade on Death Blossom. I know it may be hard to distinguish the difference between Daredevil and the DB buffs because they occurred simultaneously, but these are not one and the same.

Also, only 75 D/D thieves in WvW in two years? I’d estimate I come across one every hour at the very least. The build isn’t common in WvW now, either, on the basis that it succeeds in a sustained fight and D/D as a weapon has next to no stickiness, so pretty much anything can just run away from it if they start losing. In sPvP, this isn’t the case, as you can’t hold a point while in stealth, and you can’t win without controlling the point, meaning the lack of stickiness on a more bunker-oriented D/D evasion build doesn’t matter.

As far as tailor-made traits for specific weapons, I’m not fond of them. I think it artificially limits the confines of what weapons can do. I’d rather just see cooldown reduction and bonus damage effects on weapon-specific traits made baseline as to let the trait lines see more variability in terms of what weapons can be used for what purposes and to open up doors for diversity while making the weapons more rounded and traits universally improved. This goes back on the “we need x trait for y weapon” philosophy which is part of the basis for your complaint – you think D/D needs CiS and Rejuv – so there’s no reason to provide specific trait-answers to specific problems, when the “superior” weapon will just bypass these kinds of trait dependencies and accelerate even further beyond the rests’ performance metrics.

Jana.6831:

Maugetarr:
There were quite a few thieves on one of my server who ran D/D and S/P – but yes it is a nice set and everything it just doesn’t fit thief as everything about thief is being mobile. Maybe that’s my issue with staff – it isn’t really fluid and my wrist hurts from the awkward angle I have to force it into to get the AoE circle right on top of “me”.

In general:
Then how about designing some traits especially suited for S/D, D/D, D/P, P/D and even P/P? – it would be new in this game but it could be done: “If you’re wielding mainhand sword/offhand dagger…” or “Mainhand sword and offhand dagger”

ETA²: It was probably less than 75 D/D thieves. I usually became friends with them – that’s how rare they were.

Staff is quite fluid once you get used to it with the exception of whirling charge (staff 2). I’d like to see a remake of the #2 skill as either 3 swift strikes with the majority of the damage on the last hit, or as arcing slice (warrior GS burst) with a moderate hit with about 4 seconds of weakness.

I’d rather not see specific weapon traits as they’ll either be useless (see combined training IIRC) or mandatory limiting build choices.

@Maugetarr: My wrist can only take that much – so no, staff will never be fluid to me as the AoE circle is too close to my character.
And yes, the weapon specific traits would be likely mandatory, but my point was: Not everybody wants blind on CnD and we have ~50% useless traits.

DeceiverX.8361:

And the thieves who do not ever use CnD when playing S/D are people not using the set to its fullest potential, or are just so much better than their opponent that it isn’t needed.

They don’t believe in stealth, I guess and I kind of think they don’t care about your opinion – I was just stating the fact.

DeceiverX.8361:

I’ve never run CiS or Rejuv outside of some Duel Arena trolling with things like my P/P healing power build. To say they’re necessary traits, especially for D/D or S/D simply isn’t true.

Not for you probably, but I somehoiw doubt that you’re playing actually. As all you seem to do is making elitist remarks and demanding that this class is being destroyed.

DeceiverX.8361:

SE also got buffed.

No, it has been nerfed- we’ve had this topic in the past. Before I could get immobilizing and fear off of me – now I can’t anymore – thus I’m being a rat in a cage and not in control over my character. And unfortunately condis are so plenty that I can’t just say that I use a trick to remove it as a trick only removes one condition as well.

DeceiverX.8361:

D/D condi didn’t really “exist” before because P/D was better at sustain in WvW and the evasion frames on old DB were strictly poor

No, it didn’t exist because Driven Fortitude, Impaling Lotus and the third dodge didn’t. As far as I remember the third dodge was already gone quite a while before acro was “reworked” – my “06440” was because I wanted extra dodges and I haven’t been able to dodge thrice in a row about 1,5 years ago, before I was. Believe me, people tried to make DB spam work. You should actually know that if you meet 1 D/D thief an hour. It’s probably the same (thief.. from your server).

DeceiverX.8361:

As far as tailor-made traits for specific weapons, I’m not fond of them. I think it artificially limits the confines of what weapons can do. I’d rather just see cooldown reduction

Cooldown reduction of what? Weapon skills or utility skills? Weapon = initative, Utility = already traits to reduce the cooldown.

DeceiverX.8361:

and bonus damage effects on weapon-specific traits made baseline as to let the trait lines see more variability in terms of what weapons can be used for what purposes and to open up doors for diversity while making the weapons more rounded and traits universally improved. This goes back on the “we need x trait for y weapon” philosophy which is part of the basis for your complaint – you think D/D needs CiS and Rejuv – so there’s no reason to provide specific trait-answers to specific problems, when the “superior” weapon will just bypass these kinds of trait dependencies and accelerate even further beyond the rests’ performance metrics.

Every thief needs the nearly same things – that’s the base of my complaint. If you look at any build you’ll see trickery with sleight of hand traited. People didn’t get how great CiS was, so they probably didn’t use it – and since the majority of people is D/P anyway they don’t need it.

Like I said: I don’t believe too much of what you claim, I’m sorry. So I’ll stick to “D/D needs CiS and SRej” – we already had that discussion as well – went on for a few weeks, I think.

ETA: My 3 dodges probably didn’t work anymore because something in the first 4 traits was nerfed and I didn’t take the whole line.
But yes, D/D spam wouldn’t work without acro as well – but I’m really certain that D/D is the smallest culprit when it comes to this build.

ETA²: If you mean you’re seeing 1 D/D an hour lately, then yes, that might be, although my last sighting of a D/D and general thief have been ~3 weeks ago.
Most are engi, ele, ranger, guard, mesmer, revenants and necros. But I’m not that active in wvw right now anyway.

I’m not making elitist remarks. I’m saying Rejuv and CiS are not absolutely required for D/D to function. Every single post you make about this simply isn’t true; they’re good traits. They are not required traits. I’m not being elitist. I’m saying the truth, and that I’ve been running without these traits for a very long time and have had no performance issues as a consequence. I did not mention anywhere that I think these traits are for inferior players but the simple notion that they are not required to make D/D power function in some regard.

Acro before the nerf used to provide D/D condi with better damage via might, evasion uptime across dodges via better vigor and FG, and DB use through initiative regeneration (it still wins here) while offering less cleansing. That’s all. The only actively better component to DD is less cleansing, and many D/D condi players would run SS and SoA for extra evasion and cleanses to avoid condi bombs.

For cooldown reduction/weapon skills, I was speaking generally, for all professions. The notion of weapon-specific traits is in my opinion poor design overall. Unfortunately it’s the only system that can handle hybrid-type weapons like D/D. That said, I think the greatsword on the warrior is pretty much a straight-up power weapon, and the likes. I don’t think these traits are designed well, and I don’t think the hybrid concept is a good one, either, as it mathematically always under-performs.

As far as frequency of encountering D/D thieves in WvW goes, yes, I am referring to lately, and no, I am referring to unique players. Most of them also play power (because I often fight these players), because again, condi just gets out-run for the most part while roaming, and condi application is relatively poor in blobs from mass-cleansing. Right now, S/D + Staff/SB Daredevil vastly outnumbers those playing even D/P. You’re on EU, I’m on NA; different strokes for different folks, perhaps. Before HoT, I would say about a third of the thieves I encountered were playing D/D, split over S/D and D/P. I’ve also gotten a lot of people playing the build. Before HoT, the people aiming strictly to win a duel would run D/P, the sPvP’ers S/D, the experimenters S/P, and the loyalists/burst players D/D. You and I aren’t the only D/D players in the world. Turns out there are a lot of people who like the style of play and its aesthetic.

We did have a discussion about SE in the past. Neither of us could agree. Most of the people I’ve talked to or mentored since, however, have taken to the notion that SE is better at preventing death than before. There was a lot of outrage initially, but people started realizing how nice it was to prioritize DoT’s when your class is on the lowest health pool with the worst DoT cleansing in the game, but some of the best control condition cleansing in the game.

Trickery is used for a variety of reasons; simply, it holds everything together. Kleptomaniac and Preparedness are traits which you simply don’t get elsewhere outside of defensive trait lines. It has a substantial damage modifier. It gives a 50% uptime on Fury, Might, and Swiftness, and a 32% reduction on steal’s cooldown, on top of CC or substantial confusion, and boon theft + vigor or extra healing and condition removal. The line is simply doing everything well that most other trait lines do not compensate for. Honestly, I don’t really use SoH for the daze so much as the cooldown reduction on steal (it’s more than what the entirety of trickery as a trait line offers). If the cooldown reduction was baseline, I’d run Quick Pockets in almost every case except maybe a PI/PS interruption build.

Again, you’re twisting my words methinks. D/D doesn’t need CiS or Rejuv to function; those traits are just universally extremely strong and help the set function better than it does without (as traits tend to do). If you play in a manner which does not camp stealth at all, such as the way I do, Rejuv is worthless, because I rarely spend more than a second in stealth. CiS is good, but not a be-all-end-all trait to make the set function. D/D would be just as bad as it is now if CnD blinded on use. As you mentioned, my style never really relied on these traits to begin with, and as a consequence, when these were put in contest with each other, nothing changed for me. Many others and I are doing fine without the trait, because we never used it. I appreciate what the trait brought to the table, as I did heavy experimenting for the better half of six months to figure out my build in full.

To proclaim it’s mandatory simply isn’t the truth. I don’t have a fundamental disagreement with you asking to get CiS moved down to the second-tier slot. I do have issues with you proclaiming that x traits and by association SA are requirements for a weapon set I’ve played since day 1 of release and have put several thousand hours into without those traits aside from experimenting, and have done so with fair success, while you simultaneously denounce the integrity of others who disagree with your opinion on the basis that your experience is more worthy or has more merit than theirs through comments like the following:

I somehoiw doubt that you’re playing actually. As all you seem to do is making elitist remarks and demanding that this class is being destroyed.

Yet here I am the one proposing changes to improve the state of D/D utility and agreeing on a focused target to the damage Shadow Shot provides (as others seem to agree within the confines of this thread alone) as being the only necessary action to properly balance out D/P for QoL improvement to traits, rather than trying to get blanket nerfs/buffs to force the class into becoming what could be objectively overpowered or further imbalanced and removing the skillful nature the class promotes. I’m trying to help the thief become a solid, well-rounded class in respect to its design principles and better-reward skillful play and initiative management. I’m not trying to make the class I like the most inherently overpowered on sheer anecdotal evidence without consulting other players on other classes, doing out the math, and looking at trends within the community and experiencing what’s going on from other perspectives.

I did in fact play a DB thief prior to daredevil using DB. There were very few. It was decent with those trapper runes as those would get you the stealth without hitting your Ini which was needed for damage.

Due to short evade frames it was no where near as durable. with the SA line leeching venoms was used as one needed other sources of conditions as DB on its own would not be anough in most cases.

Now even though other thief builds surpassed it such as D/p I played it because it was different and yes fun. DB is a fun skill, The animations great and the “feel” of it just different then what I found to be a boring style of gameplay with d/p.

(I currently have four thieves on my account. I just found it easier to roll up more using different styles then moving gear around all the time. The other three are power only one uses d/p and that his secondary)

The suggestion made to move Conditions off DB and turn put them on dancing dagger instead will break the build. P/d is used for Condition damage at range as is SB. I really do not see how making the condition damage for DB another ranged application adds anything to the game. I played p/d as well condition and while it was more robust than d/d using DB , I found the gameplay boring. Others may feel differently about it and prefer the p/d style. That is their choice. Just because I found p/d rather “stale” in comparison does not mean others must nor does it mean p/d should be changed to suit my own preferences.

Too many of the proposals I see are doing this. They see what works on other sets (p/d and d/p as example) and than think by cutting and pasting the given utilities of each across to other sets they are addressing the problems of the other sets.

It is my opinion this will create too much sameness across all weapons. Want to apply conditions? Do it at range. Want mobility? add teleports. Is yours a damge/power build make more of the slots do damage. Just rename the skill and do a slight jiggle to mechanics. I do not see this as working.

I am reminded of one of those old computer based games that came out years ago. I think it part of the WOW franchise. In any case they had two factions each with a different set of unit types that could be recruited. One would think this was great for variety but when you compared what the given units did with every one of their skills it was the same thing. The animation was different. The skill was named differently but the end effect of the skills was almost identical. There really was no difference in gameplay when playing one faction over the other. Obviously this ensured both sides balanced but it rather a lazy way to achieve balance.

This is what I see happening with many proposals. The style of combat be it condition to condition or power compared to power will get a sameness about it across all weaponsets.

DeceiverX.8361:

I’m not making elitist remarks. I’m saying Rejuv and CiS are not absolutely required for D/D to function. Every single post you make about this simply isn’t true; they’re good traits. They are not required traits.

True – by that logic we can all play without traits as none of them is required for any weaponset.

DeceiverX.8361:

Acro before the nerf used to provide D/D condi with better damage via might,..

The might was neglectable – it was 2 stacks per dodge (or maybe only one – I can’t remember) and one couldn’t dodge endlessly.

DeceiverX.8361:

As far as frequency of encountering D/D thieves in WvW goes, yes, I am referring to lately, and no, I am referring to unique players. Most of them also play power (because I often fight these players),

Are you sure you didn’t see the pistol in the offhand of these guys (power D/D)? Or you are up against very bad servers.

DeceiverX.8361:

Before HoT, I would say about a third of the thieves I encountered were playing D/D, split over S/D and D/P.

And again: I don’t believe you – I have been on 6 servers and have seen 1 D/D power thief since June. I’m a platinum raider who’s been on a mainly roaming server for nearly a year – spend a few weeks or months each on every other server – Sorry, you must face very weird servers if you see mostly D/D thieves. (btw: I have been from deepest bronze to highest gold – on NA I have been the second last thief on my server before I left ~1,5 years ago).

DeceiverX.8361:

We did have a discussion about SE in the past. Neither of us could agree. Most of the people I’ve talked to or mentored since, however, have taken to the notion that SE is better at preventing death than before.

For D/P (or S/D who don’t really take SA) this might be true, yes.

DeceiverX.8361:

There was a lot of outrage initially, but people started realizing how nice it was to prioritize DoT’s when your class is on the lowest health pool with the worst DoT cleansing in the game, but some of the best control condition cleansing in the game.

Still about half of the condis aren’t cleared by stealth anymore – but alas we really had this discussion.

DeceiverX.8361:

The line is simply doing everything well that most other trait lines do not compensate for. Honestly, I don’t really use SoH for the daze so much as the cooldown reduction on steal (it’s more than what the entirety of trickery as a trait line offers).

Yes – D/P has that very utility on their weaponset – so if traited they have “twice as many” gap closers – the point is that every thief uses the nearly same stuff – so saying “we can’t give that set/trait this or that because that set already has it” makes no real sense – and this example was to show you that nearly every thief is using the same things – no matter the weaponset.

DeceiverX.8361:

If you play in a manner which does not camp stealth at all, such as the way I do, Rejuv is worthless, because I rarely spend more than a second in stealth.

I think you misunderstand the way others play – and that is one of the “elitist” remarks of you “I don’t need it, so does nobody else, so lets nerf it!!” I can barely remember how I used to play as my thief is now dead for 3/4 of a year – but I couldn’t really camp stealth except in/with SR anyway. The only ones who regulary can camp stealth are yet again D/P.

DeceiverX.8361:

rest

You’re usually in if someone proposes a change of thief which would destroy a build – that’s why I think you want this class to be dead – sorry but that’s my impression.

Edit: Wording and added some wvw info.

ETA: If you were/are really seeing that many D/D thieves, there would be more youtube videos of D/D thieves – we’ve had about 3 D/D thieves showing videos the past ~1,5 years. One was an elitist like you (maybe a fanboy) who said SA was a clutch and thus showed us footage of him fighting people in EotM. The last video he posted was staff and I think D/D. His style is very clean – I’m a bit jealous of that. Then we had nightblade who quit quite a while ago and one thief who called his videos “outnumered D/D” but meant group fights and the D/D was more dodgebow spam. There were plenty of D/P videos though. And once upon a time I saw a lot of S/D videos. There were only 3 videos posted after June – stealth trapper, the Staff+D/D and one condi D/D. I don’t think I missed all of those power D/D while flipping through youtube videos – I rather think they don’t exist.

No traits are really required for any of the weapons to function; they may help improve it, but consider the thief in a good state in this regard; look at Marksmanship for the ranger; it went from absolutely essential from RtW being an absolutely necessary trait for the longbow to function (attacks went from a 100% miss chance to a 100% hit chance) to next to pointless when the effect was made baseline. Quickdraw also helps offset the cooldown concerns quite nicely for them, too.

That’s the beauty of initiative and not having things like very-important cooldown reduction or important utility for specific weapons tied to our traits as other classes do. Trickery is pretty much “necessary” because it’s pretty much the best trait line in it of itself for a variety of reasons and has immense synergy with pretty much every build. I have vouched for better trait-utility and initiative management spread over more trait lines for some time, and this is more or less what the thief really needed than AA damage buffs.

The might added up quickly, particularly for condition builds. 2 stacks at 15s duration with FG and permanent, superior vigor + SoA + endurance regen on dagger MH auto lead to a LOT of dodging and might gain, and subsequently, extra condition damage. Not to mention bleeding used to deal more damage and might gave more stats per stack. Ask any condi player if 10 stacks of might makes a big damage difference, and they’ll readily claim that it’s pretty massive. FG and PoI were the big players in why Acro was used to begin with; the might gain could offset the damage loss from not running offensive setups like CS. It’s for this reason that HA also was nerfed (we’ve had this discussion, and I’ve run the numbers and also tested this in-game); there was too much damage coming out of defensive trait lines.

As far kitten goes, it could be argued that it is worse on D/P and permanent-stealth builds than it used to be as a long-duration stack of vuln or the likes could prevent an OOC reset, but on D/D, the DoT prioritization is typically more useful for strictly not dying; you lose a lot of cleansing per time by running D/D, even on a build focusing on maintaining stealth, so stopping DoT’s and likely healing partially from Rejuv every so often is a pretty substantial improvement for the weapon set in particular. We’ll have to agree to disagree I guess because there’s no convincing you that anything about the thief has seen any kind of general improvement in regards to SA, but oh well.

Again, thieves run very similar builds in regards to always using Trickery because of the initiative and steal cooldown reduction on SoH, and better fury access on engage than CS, with tons of condition damage pressure no other line has. It has nothing to do with weapon skills; so many of these traits are just objectively superior to others and have a high level of dependency attached to them via modifying the core mechanic of the class that the line is just too good to pass up overall. The same is said about Daredevil in that it’s just power-creep on multiple traitlines, taking the best from a variety of them and combining them into one nice package that’s next to irresistible.

As far as encountering D/D thieves in WvW, like I said, we’re in different regions. I’ve also played on 17 servers, often recruited for commander spiking or PPT havoc with my guild (although not so much in the past few days/week-ish with the latency issues). I know an offhand pistol when I see one, and I know what weapon skills correspond to which weapons, thanks. Like I said, I fight these players; D/D is absolutely less common these days than it was before due to D/P, S/D, Staff Daredevil, but some players do still run it.

Again, I’m not vouching for the removal of CiS or Rejuv. If I was an elitist proclaiming “because I don’t need it, nobody should have it”, I would be asking for the traits to be removed and replaced with something on my agenda, or talking lowly to those who use the traits. I do think SA as it is designed often acts as a crutch to poor players and enforces bad habits which ultimately detract from the skill of the thieves who learn to play the thief using the trait line. That said, a skilled thief using SA is devastating and I will not discount their ability to play the class if they are good. Usually, I do like to face these players without the trait line to determine for my own interest (and potentially theirs) where to improve and how the trait line impacts play. Part of playing competitively is learning how to get better and being willing to learn how to get better, even if it means losing a lot. Being unwilling to do so will not improve one’s abilities and will fortify potential sloppy or bad habits expressed in play. There’s a reason very skilled players call out SA as a “crutch” line in that the only way to really, truly improve and excel is to play without it for an extended period. Then going back to it in the future, you’ll be on a strong trait line as a superior player. A long-time gaming friend of mine learned the thief after undergoing learning how to play it as a signet build. He switched from SA/Acro/Tr condi P/D and died a lot, and then some. Now he runs SA/Tr/DD S/D + D/D/P (varies) after really learning the class and does extremely well for himself – much better than he ever did after really nailing down the class when playing without any support (speaking for WvW). Most people I’ve mentored have had similar experiences in that they see huge improvements to their performance when learning while deprived.

I play in a way which does not require the traits you are claiming off of anecdotal evidence, are required. Just as my evidence is also anecdotal, proclaiming such requirements as truths is a fallacy, which is the entire reason why I am using anecdotal evidence and my perceptions to prove my point; the basis of the argument is not truth but personal perception. The only agreeable instance of such “requirement” could be measured if in all instances the sole functionality of the weapon set hinged upon such traits. Since we do not see this in a variety of builds and lack the metrics to understand whether or not this has even a remote trend in the success of play, we cannot diagnose this as being pivotal to the success or lack thereof of the weapon.

great discussion, can you do tldr? its getting a bit boring reading wall’s of text

DeceiverX.8361:

That’s the beauty of initiative and not having things like very-important cooldown reduction or important utility for specific weapons tied to our traits as other classes do. Trickery is pretty much “necessary” because it’s pretty much the best trait line in it of itself for a variety of reasons and has immense synergy with pretty much every build. I have vouched for better trait-utility and initiative management spread over more trait lines for some time, and this is more or less what the thief really needed than AA damage buffs.

Trickery is staple because it has very-important cooldown reduction contrary to your belief. It has CDR for Steal and for weapon skills. Even though Thief uses Initiatives, any initiative gains from any trait is equal to 1s CDR. So a low CD Steal that grants 2 init per Steal IS a CDR for the Thief’s weapon skills.

@Deceiver:
I can’t get past the “A third of thieves I see in wvw are power D/D” – can’t get that out of my head.
The differences between NA and EU are few btw (I started on NA). I either have been on every EU server or fought every EU server there is. On one server (bronze) we were ~20 thieves who didn’t play D/P (most of them have quit this game after Hot), the rest of the server was rangers, bet they still are or maybe Dragonhunter now. I know most of the thieves on my servers and I meet a lot of thieves while roaming as few run with zergs. Still D/D has been very rare = I don’t can’t believe you.
Because even if the differences between the regions were that big, I would’ve seen tons of D/D videos on youtube and/or on this forum.

Jana.6831:

@Deceiver:
I can’t get past the “A third of thieves I see in wvw are power D/D” – can’t get that out of my head.
The differences between NA and EU are few btw (I started on NA). I either have been on every EU server or fought every EU server there is. On one server (bronze) we were ~20 thieves who didn’t play D/P (most of them have quit this game after Hot), the rest of the server was rangers, bet they still are or maybe Dragonhunter now. I know most of the thieves on my servers and I meet a lot of thieves while roaming as few run with zergs. Still D/D has been very rare = I don’t can’t believe you.
Because even if the differences between the regions were that big, I would’ve seen tons of D/D videos on youtube and/or on this forum.

lol, that statement can also mean that there are only 3 Thieves in WvW and one of them happen to use power D/D. In my experience, that’s almost accurate since most of the time, I feel like I’m the only Thief around. Does that mean the 100% of Thieves in WvW is using power D/D then since I’m the only Thief using power D/D?

@ Sir Vincent:
Yes, that does mean that 100% of thieves are power D/D.
Good explanation, now I’m not that confused anymore.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DeceiverX.8361:

That’s the beauty of initiative and not having things like very-important cooldown reduction or important utility for specific weapons tied to our traits as other classes do. Trickery is pretty much “necessary” because it’s pretty much the best trait line in it of itself for a variety of reasons and has immense synergy with pretty much every build. I have vouched for better trait-utility and initiative management spread over more trait lines for some time, and this is more or less what the thief really needed than AA damage buffs.

Trickery is staple because it has very-important cooldown reduction contrary to your belief. It has CDR for Steal and for weapon skills. Even though Thief uses Initiatives, any initiative gains from any trait is equal to 1s CDR. So a low CD Steal that grants 2 init per Steal IS a CDR for the Thief’s weapon skills.

I mentioned this explicitly in an above post. CDR on steal, initiative, and a variety of other bonuses put Trickery into being one of the objectively best trait lines. Given initiative regeneration sources matching it in others, and flat steal cooldown, the line wouldn’t be so heavily-depended on.

But I digress.

Jana, please re-read my post. I said the following:

“Before HoT, I would say about a third of the thieves I encountered were playing D/D.”

I even mentioned this statistic has dropped heavily since.

You seriously have a tendency of twisting my words and it’s kind of annoying.

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DeceiverX.8361:

That’s the beauty of initiative and not having things like very-important cooldown reduction or important utility for specific weapons tied to our traits as other classes do. Trickery is pretty much “necessary” because it’s pretty much the best trait line in it of itself for a variety of reasons and has immense synergy with pretty much every build. I have vouched for better trait-utility and initiative management spread over more trait lines for some time, and this is more or less what the thief really needed than AA damage buffs.

Trickery is staple because it has very-important cooldown reduction contrary to your belief. It has CDR for Steal and for weapon skills. Even though Thief uses Initiatives, any initiative gains from any trait is equal to 1s CDR. So a low CD Steal that grants 2 init per Steal IS a CDR for the Thief’s weapon skills.

I mentioned this explicitly in an above post. CDR on steal, initiative, and a variety of other bonuses put Trickery into being one of the objectively best trait lines. Given initiative regeneration sources matching it in others, and flat steal cooldown, the line wouldn’t be so heavily-depended on.

But I digress.

Jana, please re-read my post. I said the following:

“Before HoT, I would say about a third of the thieves I encountered were playing D/D.”

I even mentioned this statistic has dropped heavily since.

You seriously have a tendency of twisting my words and it’s kind of annoying.

I actually didn’t twist your words – it’s just that I don’t believe you – you’re either not playing this game or are only counting the thieves of your server which you know. I know other people play/ed D/D but by no means was that a third of all thieves in wvw – no matter when (before or after ferocity, before or after HoT).
It might be that a third of the thieves of your server were and maybe on another server but if this were true in general, even if only for NA, then we would’ve seen a lot more D/D videos over the years – and we didn’t – we had maybe 4 to 5 D/D thieves the past 2 years and one of them didn’t even show himself playing D/D – he was just the second thief on my first server so I know that he’s usually D/D.

ETA: In the end; I wonder why you make a claim like this.

Your references to my writing were based on the premise I spoke in terms of the present day, despite me blatantly saying this statistic no longer holds.

Not sure if I’d argue that’s a fair representation. Typically, those who make videos are more competitive and try harder to win, so subsequently they will make videos using superior weapon sets. Most prominent D/D players have either switched sets or moved games because the set under-performs. So yea, you’re not going to find a lot of new videos out there featuring amazing victories over other classes and builds – because the set isn’t competitive enough in sPvP and strictly not as good in WvW, especially now, due to the dependence on CnD landing which is quite difficult to do these days with all the blocks and invulns on elite specs.

The D/D crowd has largely fallen out since HoT due to Daredevil’s superiority and nerfs to CnD, but then again, so has a large portion of small-scale WvW in general.

DeceiverX.8361:

Also, only 75 D/D thieves in WvW in two years? I’d estimate I come across one every hour at the very least.

Then say: “Right now I’m seeing at least one D/D every hour” before Hot and/or June, I met.. but you claimed:

Before HoT, I would say about a third of the thieves I encountered were playing D/D, split over S/D and D/P.

Why I already made an ETA and said that maybe a lot more condi D/D are around right now – I already said that in no way there has been a third of all thieves D/D in the past 2 years in wvw – I explained why. I think I know all popular D/D thieves and all of them have quit long ago. Like I said, the changes made to combat a year ago were pretty crucial to me and in fact I’ve met even fewer D/D thieves afterwards – maybe that was a reason for them as well – I bet most of them quit long before June – haven’t checked. But seriously; if their numbers had been that plenty they would have posted some videos on here or I would’ve come across them elsewhere.
Btw: You forgot P/D – it was very popular while I was on NA.
So, this is offtopic, but I still doubt that you know as much about this game as you claim to know – and that is important – because I think you were the reason why SA was destroyed because you were the loudest voice calling it OP. And yeah – I’m mad at whoever did this.

I do see them about once every hour as it stands. There are enough people playing the set because it’s fun and great for periphery in blobs. The best GvG guilds in the game even during hammertrain won their fights almost solely due to the use of aggressive, burst-built thieves taking out backlines quickly.

For a while, P/D made up a bulk majority of the thieves I encountered around a bit over a year ago. That said, the trend stopped pretty abruptly when PU condi mesmer got buffed substantially, and P/D was seen as a set used by bad FoTM players; such as the videos of people fighting as a condi thief with no weapons and winning duels. And then PU condi mesmer took over the cheese roaming scene.

SA was mathematically imbalanced. We’ve discussed this. Other people discussed this. It needed repeated nerfs prior to when you were even playing the game, because the line was just flat-out overpowered. It was offset by relatively poor attribute stats (toughness/healing), but when trait-line/stat allocations were decoupled, it was problematic for balance, and the gains it had needed to be cancelled out to an extent. I laid out the math, tested this out in-game, recorded damage, discussed what the line used to offer and its impact on the game relevant to what was around at the time, at one point experimented heavily with the build (it was border-line optimal damage, but I preferred the gains from Mug and CS’s reliability paired together for quicker burst without needing to run D/P), and ran the trait line. You denounced all of my arguments by pure anecdotal evidence proclaiming that you know it offered less damage than DA or CS, offering no formal analysis on the matter. It offered too much damage. One of the traits was not working as intended (D/P issue, though). CiS got bumped because BP + HS couldn’t be countered in melee, and because (from what I can gather as a design decision) to attempt to isolate frequently entering and exiting stealth for blinds at reduced initiative costs which ended up being problematic at the time. It got its durability upped as a consequence and was made into a more functional defensive trait line.

Obviously we disagree over SE’s effectiveness at keeping a thief alive. I’d argue that you can have your SE back as it was, curing conditions like any other removal skill, but then that’d be unfair to those who support the DoT prioritization (which as I mentioned, these people exist, and do not visit the forums to complain about this trait being weak on the basis they do not think it is weak to complain about it). Rejuv was consolidated/buffed, and the thief got 25% damage reduction in stealth. The 50% on RoS as intended was too strong due to it stacking with protection on top of Rejuv.

LR was made optional so people stopped getting revealed without their consent. I understand you like SA and the style it brings. Thing is, it needed to get nerfed, and even post-nerf, it is one of the more commonly-selected trait lines out there. We see Trickery as #1 for obvious reasons, Daredevil second for obvious reasons, DA third on power, SA third/fourth. Acro for condi, and CS in last. When Daredevil wasn’t in the picture, or if the cleansing is to be nerfed, SA would makes its presence again at the second-place mark, which is solid, and in all likelihood, implies balanced. The fact staff Daredevil can use the line demonstrates it has amazing utility potential despite the damage losses from cutting DA and/or CS.

I make suggestions for a lot of classes. I advocated for hambow nerfs, I’ve advocated for elementalist sustain nerfs via the removal of the celestial amulet. I’ve advocated for turret resilience nerfs, and scrapper damage nerfs. I’ve advocated for burning nerfs. I’ve advocated for death shroud improvements. I’ve advocated for exclusive D/D thief buffs (work in progress to try and figure out what the heck people actually want and can agree upon) and damage nerfs to Shadow Shot (something you agree is cheesy and busted). I’ve pronounced my displeasure with various mesmer mechanics, which have seen a variety of corresponding buffs and nerfs (although this class I will admit, while my posts are highly-rated, the developers do seem to ignore and make stupid decisions, but the incoming ones are overall relatively sound so far). Every suggestion I made short of re-designing the ranger’s pet mechanics in the ranger CDI was implemented. Most of these have been done or are being done, and most of these have been seen as positive implementations overall.

That said, ANet has done a lot of concerning or downright disturbing balance mistakes in the past several years. I am outspoken against many of these and have received a lot of criticism from ANet as a consequence.

I’m not trying to be some bad-guy in the background asserting anything other than trying to define and promote a fun and balanced game, and unify players’ understandings of the game and their desires on what needs to be addressed and both why and how they should be addressed. If I had a vendetta against you, I wouldn’t be attempting to promote your thread, its discussion, any consequent solutions, or attempts to garner intelligible responses, but rather, I would simply not respond and let the subject die or respond in meaningless, counter-productive manners and refuse to justify any conclusions I reach. A cluster%^&# of complaints facing all directions with no intellectual discussion or debate, number-crunching, and the likes, results in absolutely nothing being accomplished, and the forums and suggestions from the community itself forsaken as a consequence.

If the moral of this thread is to nerf D/P because you’re still upset over the changes to Shadow Arts, and proclaim me and what I bring to the table from experience and mathematical perspectives as invalid or unwanted for whatever reason, justified or not, just say so now. I’ll take my posting elsewhere.

DeceiverX.8361:

If the moral of this thread is to nerf D/P because you’re still upset over the changes to Shadow Arts, and proclaim me and what I bring to the table from experience and mathematical perspectives as invalid or unwanted for whatever reason, justified or not, just say so now. I’ll take my posting elsewhere.

I like the postings and discussion. We don’t agree on everything, but I think bringing mathematical arguments into the discussion to show whether something is OP or UP is a good thing.

The problem is offhand dagger is weak, not that D/P is too strong.

I would just add effects to offhand dagger, because all 3 combinations with offhand dagger are fairly lack luster.

Offhand dagger needs a gimmick. What that gimmick is doesn’t matter as long as it’s good. The problem is, the skills are currently bad. Plenty of people have suggested things in the past.. I’ve suggested giving a “teleport to behind” effect as a skill flip over to dancing dagger, but plenty of other things can be done instead or in addition.

I’m not gonna try not to get involved in this debate. cause well i’m on break from this game. but i do have to point out that you should be using cnd with S/d. sparingly.

An evade will only get you so far when there are mutliple channeling abilities in this game. Ideally you would want to stealth and re-position (inf. Return) so you could break targeting and Re engage (in an offensive posture opposed to the defensive one you just left)

Not to mention that at one time there was this thing called bunker guardians. While most thieves at the time where complaining, the select few could tell you that sword 1 daze + Mace crack (guardian stolen ability) Would break there rotations enough to 1vs1 them. (this also worked vs RTL Eles with ice spike)

There are lot’s of other uses, but well who cares.

@ Deceiver – You were one of two calling it OP – and you always did whenever the topic came to SA – over months.
I chose SA because of two traits: SE and CiS. I’d love to take SRej, but unfortunately I’m unable to. Also, I only had problems with last refuge when I was lagging – But I couldn’t take it anymore anyway since it’s all about SE – I don’t think that any thief who choses SA doesn’t trait into SE.
With all of that taken away from me there goes around 70% of my sustain, no matter how you turn it. Even in the old meta it would’ve been 50%. I can’t stealth on demand, I can’t stealth for longer than 4 seconds without SR or smokefield blast.
The 25% damage reduction while stealthed only helps while using SR – otherwise you don’t really need it, except if you’re imobilized on spot and someone throws AoE at you. The line as it is is garbage but it’s still good enough for D/P as they have far different conditions than a D/D thief. And as they can still take the traits most important to them (I’m not jealous, btw, I just don’t get why the weakest of thief builds was allowed nothing and even got nerfed while the strongest was left intact).
I probably would’ve agreed to tone down the regen by a notch, but everything else was just murder. Even taking Might from that line – We’ve discussed this as well.

So, I don’t know but most of what you say is of destructive nature. I have no idea what you post on other forums – I quit stalking a long time ago

Highlie.7641:

Not to mention that at one time there was this thing called bunker guardians. While most thieves at the time where complaining, the select few could tell you that sword 1 daze + Mace crack (guardian stolen ability) Would break there rotations enough to 1vs1 them. (this also worked vs RTL Eles with ice spike)

There are lot’s of other uses, but well who cares.

Completely agree. S/D stealth #1 + bas venom + sleight of hand was a very nice set up. Playing S/D well wasn’t just about evades, it was the timed CC chains with boon strip that made the set really hurt.

Unfortunately the June specializations patch really screwed with S/D. It wasn’t just acro being gutted, forcing S/D to choose between a decent heal or boon rip in trickery was poorly thought out.

babazhook.6805:

Gibimo.2193:

babazhook.6805:

Gibimo.2193:

Cynz.9437:

babazhook.6805:

Shadow Shot over shadow strikealso has that blind and is unblockable. Great chase down skill. Someone near death and running this kills more often than not.

only teleport part is unblockable

Cynz is right which is wrong usage of shadow shot eventually make yourself killed

I said this kills a fleeing enemy more often than not and such has been my experience. I have rarely died because of it.

You won’t take that lot of time to chase down the bunker unless they all run out of cooldowns and heals. Simply its waste of time and efforts if you facing good players.
They will try to bait you and shooted by shadow shot and dodge to avoid damage.
And you’ll see you have a mark on your head and other zerkers coming to kill you.
And the last point you should remember is good zerkers will never stay alone.
so you can’t have that much offertunity in fair match ups with good players

Not my experience. I am talking wvW. I have been there for years. People run and they tend to scatter. Pick a target and kill him. Generally these guys are running because they used all their heals . When those other zerkers show you have your utilities/skills to stealth.

There are also those that will run away in a group. You do not chase those. It really not hard to see the field of battle and see which peoples remain disciplined and retreat in order and which just break down and scatter. I am also well aware of the thieves that will linger on the edges of battle hoping to jump someone pursuing another.

That said I have also ported right into a clump of enemy to down someone blind and got out. If you move fast you can get in and out. Just do not do such a thing when they surrounded by AOE rings.

Oh and I do not play zerker . I can take hits and still hit hard. Interrupts with PI traited are devastating . Daredevil runes with Sigils of intel work wonders. The saving on precision can be invested in a little more vitality/toughness. This will become even better post patch with harder hitting AA.

Seems like we are looking at the very different point.
I was talking about spvp just because thief has very few options to choose in wvw.
Well, you can enjoy it but that doesn’t means you are useful as other classes.
but yes, still each class has a roll in wvw and so as thief.
But even though thieves are not essential, especially when you zerg.
My friend was a commander at JQ but he doesn’t like thieves at all.

And In spvp, zerker means kinda little different from normal.
Its more like ‘damage dealer’ because zerker amulet was the most common for damage dealers. just to make sure seems you didn’t know that.

No one ever complained about me being in their zerg – for a reason.

Jana.6831:

No one ever complained about me being in their zerg – for a reason.

sure no one have a rights to do that.
but still, there is efficiency.

Gibimo.2193:

Jana.6831:

No one ever complained about me being in their zerg – for a reason.

sure no one have a rights to do that.
but still, there is efficiency.

Alright, the other day – we were at Anz, fighting a blob (being a blob ourselves) – then the third server came from SM behind us – unfortunately our commander died. He WPed and came running back – the rest of us were holding the zerg on the Bridge anz/SM. Our commander came from the left with a few who didn’t make it the first time around. I saw that he was at 5% health but he hasn’t been targeted, so he wanted to “hide” under the bridge on which end I stood. I saw it and jumped when he came in range = stealth (because of cis), meager heal. About 10 of us ran from under the bridge into the back of the enemy blob and defeated them.

I guess that’s why no one complains – I might not have the strongest class but I’m good at what I’m doing.

I’m mostly not in TS btw – I have to guess what the commander is doing – and since I’m used to it it works really well – in fact mostly better than if I were in TS (I tried) – only thing I’m missing is that I don’t know when to blast waterfields.
And that very commander and I push at the very same time – ideal, really. Yes, I run frontline if it makes sense.

ETA: For those who don’t know:
5 enemies: Group
~10 enemies: bigger group
15-25: Zerg
35-90: Blob

We were around 50 each in that case.

ETA²: I know my comment sounds a bit random. Yes, thief is weak but just before I left my first server (shortly after the ferocity patch) – everybody and their mother was kittening about how bad (haha) and useless (haha) thieves were – they weren’t wrong as at that point the pirate ship meta was yet to come and I guess the pirate ship is the reason why I can survive in zergs – but still it was uncalled for – I suck a lot more on my guard = perfect rallybot. So a commander “disliking thieves” is kind of “meh” as he should know better.

Jana.6831:

Gibimo.2193:

Jana.6831:

No one ever complained about me being in their zerg – for a reason.

sure no one have a rights to do that.
but still, there is efficiency.

Alright, the other day – we were at Anz, fighting a blob (being a blob ourselves) – then the third server came from SM behind us – unfortunately our commander died. He WPed and came running back – the rest of us were holding the zerg on the Bridge anz/SM. Our commander came from the left with a few who didn’t make it the first time around. I saw that he was at 5% health but he hasn’t been targeted, so he wanted to “hide” under the bridge on which end I stood. I saw it and jumped when he came in range = stealth (because of cis), meager heal. About 10 of us ran from under the bridge into the back of the enemy blob and defeated them.

I guess that’s why no one complains – I might not have the strongest class but I’m good at what I’m doing.

I’m mostly not in TS btw – I have to guess what the commander is doing – and since I’m used to it it works really well – in fact mostly better than if I were in TS (I tried) – only thing I’m missing is that I don’t know when to blast waterfields.
And that very commander and I push at the very same time – ideal, really. Yes, I run frontline if it makes sense.

ETA: For those who don’t know:
5 enemies: Group
~10 enemies: bigger group
15-25: Zerg
35-90: Blob

We were around 50 each in that case.

a mesmer could do the same stealth role with better options
and it can stealth entire zerg

Jana.6831:

Gibimo.2193:

Jana.6831:

No one ever complained about me being in their zerg – for a reason.

sure no one have a rights to do that.
but still, there is efficiency.

Alright, the other day – we were at Anz, fighting a blob (being a blob ourselves) – then the third server came from SM behind us – unfortunately our commander died. He WPed and came running back – the rest of us were holding the zerg on the Bridge anz/SM. Our commander came from the left with a few who didn’t make it the first time around. I saw that he was at 5% health but he hasn’t been targeted, so he wanted to “hide” under the bridge on which end I stood. I saw it and jumped when he came in range = stealth (because of cis), meager heal. About 10 of us ran from under the bridge into the back of the enemy blob and defeated them.

I guess that’s why no one complains – I might not have the strongest class but I’m good at what I’m doing.

I’m mostly not in TS btw – I have to guess what the commander is doing – and since I’m used to it it works really well – in fact mostly better than if I were in TS (I tried) – only thing I’m missing is that I don’t know when to blast waterfields.
And that very commander and I push at the very same time – ideal, really. Yes, I run frontline if it makes sense.

ETA: For those who don’t know:
5 enemies: Group
~10 enemies: bigger group
15-25: Zerg
35-90: Blob

We were around 50 each in that case.

and btw just blast water field when you see it
it’s placed because its called

Shockwave.1230:

The problem is offhand dagger is weak, not that D/P is too strong.

I would just add effects to offhand dagger, because all 3 combinations with offhand dagger are fairly lack luster.

Offhand dagger needs a gimmick. What that gimmick is doesn’t matter as long as it’s good. The problem is, the skills are currently bad. Plenty of people have suggested things in the past.. I’ve suggested giving a “teleport to behind” effect as a skill flip over to dancing dagger, but plenty of other things can be done instead or in addition.

I think we can all agree off hand dagger needs a gimmick and one that will help p/d s/d and d/d but what is that Gimmick?

It can not ignore that there three weapon sets that are in fact suffering nor do I personally think duplicating something one of the other two helps a lot.

Now s/d might see a bit of a boost come tomorrow and we might well see more s/d but we also have to realize if the gimmick something that does too much to help s/d relative to d/d , then s/d could become the nect d/p.

P/d in my opinion is in as bad a spot as d/d. On the server I play my own wvw on I certainly see more d/d power users then p/d thiefs.

I think we should just wait a bit, see the changes that happen tomorrow, measure the impact they have on exisiting x/d sets and then rethink from scratch.

babazhook.6805:

I think we can all agree off hand dagger needs a gimmick and one that will help p/d s/d and d/d but what is that Gimmick?

It can not ignore that there three weapon sets that are in fact suffering nor do I personally think duplicating something one of the other two helps a lot.

Now s/d might see a bit of a boost come tomorrow and we might well see more s/d but we also have to realize if the gimmick something that does too much to help s/d relative to d/d , then s/d could become the nect d/p.

P/d in my opinion is in as bad a spot as d/d. On the server I play my own wvw on I certainly see more d/d power users then p/d thiefs.

I think we should just wait a bit, see the changes that happen tomorrow, measure the impact they have on exisiting x/d sets and then rethink from scratch.

yeah I can’t agree more for that off hand dagger need a gimmick.
I think the main problem of off dagger is its stealth is too passive and defensive.
It needs effective gap closer for main hand to use it properly and requires high skills to use it aggressive. which is directed to the pressure problem.
thief can take some defensive options but not like this.