Guild Wars 2

Djinn.9245:

nottsgman.8206:

if you’re going for a legendary, you must do some things you might not enjoy.

Not sure why.

It should be obvious … the game is not designed around an individual’s wants.

Again, there isn’t a problem with having builds that you have been using for many years. I don’t even think that’s true but it’s not worth arguing that point; I have changed my Engi PVE build many time, adjusting to changes (good to bad) that Anet have made to the class. Probably moreso than any other class I play. I don’t doubt the same is true for many others in both PVP and WvW as well, based on the forum chatter.

Changing things just to give people fresh builds isn’t a very good reason to change things, especially if they are trying to maintain other factors. People choose classes to play, not because they expect the class to change and stay fresh every few months, but because they like the theme, or just want to do FOTM. Classes don’t need to be treated like warriors for people to play them. That’s just being sensational.

Besides, even if it is stagnant, the answer to that problem already exists; there are 8 other classes Anet provides players that get bored. That’s the reason they are there.

Vagrant.7206:

What I’ve been arguing is that we’ve been shoehorned into a few very small builds because all our other options have become non-viable.

OK if that’s the case, I don’t see a problem. I mean, you talk like this is exceptional but that’s typical. I don’t think anyone here will disagree that build diversity isn’t a strength of this game. I see that complaint in every class forum … even the ones that are meta. Sure other classes get things here and there … but they still suffer from the same problem if it is indeed a problem to begin with. In fact, I would argue that if you want more balance between classes, you have to accept throwing out build diversity to do it. It’s just too complicated and not within the constraints of the game development resources to do so.

So how does a lack of build diversity for all classes mean that Anet doesn’t care about Engi? Logically, you can say a lack of build diversity means Anet doesn’t care about any class …

What it REALLY sounds like to me is that you just want change for changes sake. I see no compelling reason for that.

That doesn’t really answer my question: You claim Anet balances classes according to what other classes do, but if that was true, then all the balancing efforts after 5 years should have resulted in … class balance. Clearly that’s not the case and it’s not due to Anet not ‘doing things’. I mean, you haven’t really explained how that works.

If what you say is true, then Engi should be just as good as Warriors because Anet does make changes to both classes. Yet you claim Warriors are good, Engi’s are not. You have a conflicting situation; reality does not match what you claim is how things work.

Let me put it this way: You say favouritism by the Devs on Warrior and Ele is your observation that Anet are balancing to create equivalent performance between all the classes. That makes no sense at all. I can’t imagine at all how favouring specific classes to remain top performers demonstrates that Anet balancing goal is to achieve equivalent performance between the all classes. Favouritism is in fact the opposite of achieving that balance goal.

Vagrant.7206:

Obtena.7952:

Um no, it means you need to adjust your understanding of what balancing means. If you haven’t got what you believe is balance after 5 years, it’s because Anet isn’t going to give it to you, not because they need to change how they think.

Engineer doesn’t live in a vacuum, you know. There are other classes to compare against, and they have seen meaningful changes in both the balance patches and expansion.

Sure, go and make all the comparisons you want. Is that relevant to what Anet does? What do you see ingame that convinced you that’s how Anet does things … after 5 years? From what I can tell, those class comparisons have zero to do with how Anet regards any particular class and how it’s changed. If that was the case, we would already have balance between classes close to how you imagine it. To your own admission, that’s not the case.

You suggest the method that Anet uses to balance between classes, yet it conflicts with the reality of class balance in the game. That can’t be right can it?

Um no, it means you need to adjust your understanding of what balancing means. If you haven’t got what you believe is balance after 5 years, it’s because Anet isn’t going to give it to you, not because they need to change how they think.

I think the class is fixable as well, provided that the ability to do so fits within the constraints of the business model. So far, no game I’m familiar with has demonstrated these constraints don’t have a serious impact on the devs ability to make these changes; they are bound by limited resources just like any other business. It appears to me you simply dismiss these a frivolous causes, simply because you think being angry is a compelling argument; I assure you neither is true. If i was wrong, then all the problems listed by angry players would have been dealt with years ago. Obviously that’s not the case. It’s a very logical argument. Being angry and dismissive doesn’t make it less so.

Not sure I can repeat myself enough here; I don’t disagree there are things wrong, but I do disagree with your conclusion that it’s due to neglect or lack of care. There are numerous and more likely reasons. I guess just because I don’t crap all over people makes me a fatalist, then so be it. Rather that than appear unknowledgeable, bitter and unreasonable by assuming some of the least likely, worst cases.

Vagrant.7206:

Obtena.7952:

I’m glad you point that out too, because not getting changes, particularly if they aren’t ready for a patch release ONCE in the history of the game, is a really bad example of Anet’s apathy.

Are you going to play ignorant of the larger context? I pointed out an entire year’s-worth of relatively meaningless “balance” and your takeaway is that there’s only been one problematic balance patch?

I get your point. I’m saying it doesn’t really make much sense if you look at the history of the game. Engi’s have got lots of changes over the last 5 years, so to look at a very short period of time in that, and conclude Anet doesn’t care, or aren’t competent is a disingenuous statement to make.

1 year is not a short time. 2 years is not a short time. This last year alone I can’t remember any meaningful changes to our profession. In 2 years, I can remember any fixes to engineer rifle, which we’ve complained about for a very long time.

This isn’t “current doldrums.” This is a longstanding issue. Don’t trivialize it just because some of us are becoming more vocal.

If you want to make some construction conclusions, I’m all for it but if your conclusion is that Anet doesn’t care … then what’s even the point of making a thread they won’t read? There isn’t any value in that.

1. I try pretty frequently to post in places where ArenaNet will see, both on these forums and in Reddit. Most of my posts die on Reddit, and get moved to the engineer subforums here, which is a graveyard for posts.
2. I concluded that my lone voice wasn’t loud enough. So I post here to get more people to pipe up. Maybe if more people can point out that there’s a problem (and stop kissing Anet’s tushy), then we can get noticed and something can be done.

Yet to claim that Anet hasn’t paid attention to Engi for 1-2 years, just because they don’t do things you want them to isn’t being honest. I can’t stress this enough … there is nothing more nonsensical than to assume there is purposeful neglect. You better have a much stronger case for that kind of claim other than “don’t fix things we want”. That’s certainly not enough. If you can’t rush to the worst conclusion you can think of on such flimsy observations that can be attributed to more realistic, non-nefarious reasons, there isn’t much reason to take you seriously, at all. There is zero value to that non-constructive criticism, other than concluding you’re just another typical angry player ranting on the forum.

Anyways, you’ve convinced yourself Anet doesn’t care because you observe certain things. The core problem with that is it’s completely irrelevant; there is a wide range of satisfaction with players. As I’ve already said, the solution in place for class changes is actually optimized based on business constraints. Anet already knows that a fraction of players feel negatively about balance, no matter what they do. How do you make your opinion different and meaningful? By accusing them of apathy? Let us know how that works for you.

Vagrant.7206:

Apathy isn’t what Anet is showing here. Engi does get changes to the class, just like any other over the course of the life of this game.

I’m glad you mentioned over the course of the game, because we were left out of this latest bit of balancing. It’s almost like they didn’t bother this time ’round.

I’m glad you point that out too, because not getting changes, particularly if they aren’t ready for a patch release ONCE in the history of the game, is a really bad example of Anet’s apathy.

Vagrant.7206:

My point in all this is that either we are a problem they keep putting off for no apparent reason, or they just don’t care. Either way, it has the same effect and leaves a pretty sour taste in my mouth.

I get your point. I’m saying it doesn’t really make much sense if you look at the history of the game. Engi’s have got lots of changes over the last 5 years, so to look at a very short period of time in that, and conclude Anet doesn’t care, or aren’t competent is a disingenuous statement to make. Again, we get it. You don’t like the current state of Engi. That shouldn’t lead any reasonable person to conclude that Anet doesn’t care about the class. That’s ridiculous … just as ridiculous if I were to say I really like how Engi works as a class and that Anet cares the most about it.

If you want to make some construction conclusions, I’m all for it but if your conclusion is that Anet doesn’t care … then what’s even the point of making a thread they won’t read? There isn’t any value in that.

Vagrant.7206:

Obtena.7952:

You don’t need to tell me anything if this thread is the kind of message you want people to take from what you are saying.

You took the worst of many possible outcomes, then assumed it was THE reason for what you observed without considering more simple and logical ones. Let me wonder why someone would do that … certainly not to have open and fair discussion.

The fact is that anyone thinking that a dev team is purposefully ruining a particular class has an axe to grind.

Again, don’t twist my words. I think they just don’t care about the class as long as the overall meta seems balanced.

Considering that meta isn’t Anet’s conception and they clearly don’t balance classes around it, I think that’s quite ridiculous claim to make. That might be worth saying if you weren’t just here to make dissension.

Apathy isn’t what Anet is showing here. Engi does get changes to the class, just like any other over the course of the life of this game. Just because you don’t like them or the timelines associated with them do not indicate Anet does not care about Engi. That’s completely nonsense if you consider that the very people you accuse of sabotaging the classes in the game depend on the game doing well so they can do things like … live with a roof over their heads, not eat from the garbage can, put clothes on their back.

Like I said, you took the WORST case, least logical possibility, latched onto it like it was the only truth that exists and dismissed any other possible, more reasonable and sensible explanation … just because you don’t like the direction the class has taken or how it’s being handled. Why should anyone listen to that kind of dribble? What’s better is that you think I don’t have meaningful to say … that’s ripe.

thrag.9740:

Obtena.7952:

That’s not a coincidence at all … especially if you understand that ‘being meta’ isn’t Anet’s motivation to buff a class. Somehow that logic escapes you completely.

Your saying that Anet doesn’t buff a class based on whether or not it is meta correct? That Anet doesn’t consider the meta when balancing? So then how is it not a giant coincidence that ele and warrior always seem to make their way into the meta? Please explain your argument, because I don’t understand.

It seems clear as day to me that Anet must be choosing to hinder necro and buff ele.

Maybe … but that still doesn’t disprove what I’m saying … Anet isn’t buffing to ensure classes are all meta. I mean … SOME class has to be meta, that much is true. Is Anet doing it on purpose to favour some classes? I dunno … but I CAN see some logic to that since the warrior and elementalist ARE two the most quinessential classes of any notable MMO in the last 30 years. Of course, that’s some deep understanding of MMO culture right there.

The Ele/Warrior thing doesn’t have anything to do with what I’m saying anyways, so I don’t get what’s your point there. Clearly, getting buffs doesn’t ensure meta balancing, so the idea that necro or any other class needs more buffs just because it’s not meta is quite ridiculous. This is just obvious since we’ve already experienced that situation ingame.

Vagrant.7206:

Obtena.7952:

That’s one way to look at it. Here is another … it wasn’t forgotten about; there is something in development.

You assume because you don’t see it, it’s not happening. Not good.

If you can’t recognize ANet’s pattern of nerfing engineer and then promptly ignoring it, then I’m not sure what to tell you.

You don’t need to tell me anything if this thread is the kind of message you want people to take from what you are saying.

You took the worst of many possible outcomes, then assumed it was THE reason for what you observed without considering more simple and logical ones. Let me wonder why someone would do that … certainly not to have open and fair discussion.

The fact is that anyone thinking that a dev team is purposefully ruining a particular class has an axe to grind.

Vagrant.7206:

If they were going to change Elixir X, I think they would’ve made a note of it somewhere, or at least indicated a fix coming for it. Granted, it’s not a skill I care much about (I’d prefer they fix rifle), but the silence is deafening.

You assume too much … though that’s par for the course considering most of your posts in this thread. The fact is that you don’t know how long it takes to change something or what is being worked on.

We all get your play here; it’s the typical goading we see from people that really don’t have much more to say other than they aren’t happy. You’re thread might have been better if the original complain held more water.

thrag.9740:

I see, so its reasonable to expect anet to be able to buff necro, its just a complete coincidence that in 5 years, it has never made necro meta.

That’s not a coincidence at all … especially if you understand that ‘being meta’ isn’t Anet’s motivation to buff a class. Somehow that logic escapes you completely.

I didn’t say it wasn’t reasonable for Anet to buff necro, ever. Please try to follow if you are genuinely participating in this discussion. In fact, Anet has buffed necro many times in the past and still, are power necro’s that you want to play meta? Are you incorrectly associating buffs with balancing to the meta? I would have a long, hard look at the history of this game before holding on to that assumption.

Vagrant.7206:

Obtena.7952:

… and? That’s just want I call “game evolving”. Again, you can’t conclude that Anet doesn’t recognize these skills interact, just because they changed something so they are not anymore.

Generally, when they don’t update something that probably should have been updated too, it’s an oversight. As in, the balance team forgot about Engineer’s Elixir X.

That’s one way to look at it. Here is another … it wasn’t forgotten about; there is something in development.

You assume because you don’t see it, it’s not happening. Not good.

thrag.9740:

Obtena I think you have an incorrect grasp of my position. I do get teams. I full clear weekly with my static, and I pug more kills each week for fun. I don’t play necro, but I do see how they are treated. That’s why I am here arguing that Anet should stop showing such blatant favoritism.

Do you believe it is harder for a necro to join raid groups? Do you believe it should be harder for a necro to join raid groups?

I don’t think it should or shouldn’t be harder. I understand that classes aren’t equivalent in performance. That results in classes not being equivalent in other ways. I accept these variations because I’m a reasonable, veteran MMO player. It’s not about what I think, it’s about how these games work. I can wish all kinds of things. I could even convince myself that it’s someone’s fault, just like you do … that doesn’t change how and why these games work this way.

… instead I have a rational view of these sorts of things; there isn’t much value in chasing meta; most vets know this and certainly, every game dev does; it’s why you don’t see them try it. You have a different idea, one that isn’t inline with the reality of any MMO I’ve ever seen, including this one. It’s simply not a tenable position to have.

Of course this means little to you; you think your faith that Anet should set it straight is more powerful than the truth.

thrag.9740:

@obtena I resolve it because I’m not foolish enough to believe a single person playing necro in raids is proof that there is good balance.

That’s my point exactly … good balance isn’t why I get teams. I don’t need to play balanced classes to be successful in raids. You’re statements that you need good balance to do so make no sense. It’s consequently why you fail at getting teams.

thrag.9740:

@Obtena No, balance issues are Anet’s problem. I’m tired of people apologizing for Anet. Your trying to blame players for the fact that necro has never once been buffed into a top tier dps slot. That’s Anet’s decision, and it’s their fault. People defending that decision allows it to perpetuate.

Necro doesn’t need to be buffed to top tier DPS slot to be welcomed on raid teams; there are many other factors that contribute to a class being desirable. This simple application of logic is faulty. If that was true, the list of classes not raiding would be much longer.

As I said .. I raid (and successfully) with necro all the time. So it’s Anet’s fault YOU can’t get a team … but on the other hand, it’s Anet’s fault that I do? Nothing you have said here addresses the question I asked you … how do you resolve the fact that I do raid on my necro, despite the claim that a lack of balancing prevents you from doing the same? The only conclusion I can come to is that I’m either THAT awesome at playing my necro, or your claim makes no sense.

It’s not a balancing problem that prevents you from getting a team, yet allows me to raid successfully with the SAME class. That makes zero sense. There is no logical train of thought that leads any reasonable person to conclude necros can’t get raid spots because of balancing issues and lacking DPS when people use necros in teams to successfully raid.

Vagrant.7206:

Alek Seven.2374:

I feel like Engineers are nerf dummies like the one in Lion Arch Aerodrome.

Hey guys, we need to nerf something, can we try on engi first ? And leave it like this after ill be done.

Yep, and warriors are their go-to for buffing.

Obtena

For instance, you haven’t considered that doing so would lead to paralysis by analysis. I mean, if Anet took every change they made, then looked at how it affected ALL the other classes, then made decisions to proceed if something wasn’t ideal, nothing would ever get changed.

This isn’t about how one skill affects the entire meta, though. Elixir X used Plague as a literal analogue to the Necromancer’s, and now they are no longer in sync because ANet didn’t recognize that the two skills are intertwined.

… and? That’s just want I call “game evolving”. Again, you can’t conclude that Anet doesn’t recognize these skills interact, just because they changed something so they are not anymore.

thrag.9740:

I don’t care how anet measures anything. That doesn’t affect me. I care whether or not my necro can raid. It can’t.

Fair enough … you care to ignore the reality. Still, pointing that blame at Anet is unjustified. I raid with my necro all the time and so do others … so how do you resolve that conundrum? Anet likes us and not you? There is a secret list you are on of ‘have-nots’?

You simply have it wrong. It’s not Anet’s fault you can’t raid with your necro. Certainly they create difficult conditions for it, but the difference comes down to players. If you can’t raid with your necro, you’re doing something wrong. That’s not Anet’s problem to solve.

The answer to your problem is the same as it was when people were kicking non-meta on dungeons.

Guardians don’t maintain viability because of support, contrary to the OP’s claim.

Wondrouswall.7169:

Obtena.7952:

For instance, you haven’t considered that doing so would lead to paralysis by analysis. I mean, if Anet took every change they made, then looked at how it affected ALL the other classes, then made decisions to proceed if something wasn’t ideal, nothing would ever get changed.

When you put it that way, that’s like how Anet does things already.

It was stated a few times on livestreams in the past that they also take into consideration perfect-case scenarios, which include how a change affects and is affected by other classes.

It’s a plus and a minus, but they do it. In the case of Elixir X, Plague, and Plaguelands; it’s more likely to be an oversight – which happens. It’ll either be removed or left alone as a forever-intended effect.

Not saying it doesn’t happen, but I think it’s important to be aware of how far from significance such things can be. My experience … unless it breaks something, it’s not really that big a deal for the devs.

It certainly doesn’t mean that Anet doesn’t care. That’s silly.

Vagrant.7206:

How would it even work anyways? You have a 50% to go into a transform otherwise drop a PBAoE?

Simple. They remove plague from Elixir X.

My thoughts exactly. And what does updating or not updating skills have to do with balance anyway?

It shows that they aren’t fully cognizant of how the changes they make in one class affects another class.

I don’t think that’s a valid conclusion; there are others. For instance, you haven’t considered that doing so would lead to paralysis by analysis. I mean, if Anet took every change they made, then looked at how it affected ALL the other classes, then made decisions to proceed if something wasn’t ideal, nothing would ever get changed.

There is no reasonable way Anet could proceed with such a scheme for implementing game changes. Yup, there are interactions between classes that are very strong. Well, it’s just the consequence of a Multiclass MMO. You deal with it by playing smart and making choices. You should also be consoled by the idea that next time the pendulum sways in your direction as well; it’s happened lots of times in this game. THAT is where the balance is.

Fallesafe.5932:

I lost two RL friends from this game because they also couldn’t stand the stupid, tedious level-up. That’s why, anymore, I just tell people to buy HoT and use the level 80 boost. The game doesn’t actually start until you hit level 80. It’s so bad that people will kick you from Ascalonian Catacombs for being less than 80. But it’s a level 35 dungeon!!

My personal experience was that this game had an EXTREMELY unfriendly new-player experience. I’ve never played an MMO before where it was so hard to find basic information about things. I finally found most of my answers, and made my characters very strong and well equipped. But I have a really autistic sort of persistence that a lot of people don’t. So, yea… I hear you. I tried to introduce two people to this game. and they both called it quit after a few weeks.

I think you missed the OP’s point … it wasn’t the level up that made his GF quit, it was the simple storyline. To be frank, the level up experience in this game is comparatively simple and fast. I can’t imagine anyone truly complaining about GW2 that has any sort of experience with other MMO’s. In truth, there are few MMO’s that have significant content outside of leveling below their max level ranges; there is a perfectly good reason for that …. because you don’t do it again once you have leveled. It’s the nature of the genre. GW2 actually does a better job of that than most with the downscaling.

It’s true about the story … it’s pretty predictable and linear. You never fail, you never lose. It’s the big thing that Anet got wrong for their market. Even casual players like good stories.

thrag.9740:

My, ‘dont care comment’ isn’t really about my own personal feelings. I guess it wasn’t clear, I’m saying your assumption that all MMO developers behave the same is pointless.

It’s not pointless at all. The whole industry behaves that way and as I explained, there is a very real, pragmatic reason for that; you might not believe this but it’s an optimized solution, driven by business constraints and restrictions. You might crap on that because the optimized solution doesn’t deliver what you and others want. That’s just a function of not understanding the reality of the development side, the business restrictions/constraints and probably some unrealistic expectations as well.

Maybe you decided in your head that somehow, Anet is different. I’m not sure why you would do that. While they have delivered some very different ideas to MMO format, fundamentally, it’s still an MMO with all the same problems the others face that have multi classes. Not as single MMO I’ve played with multi-classes does not have the problem where players want classes to deliver similar performance and completely different concepts. Anet’s solution to that is as optimal as it gets, just like everyone elses, because the constraints are based on business factors that are all similar among the MMO companies, not programming or conceptual ones.

Yes, from a performance perspective, we don’t like the class differences. Unfortunately, we love the conceptual differences. The fact is that the easiest path for balance is the conceptual one; it doesn’t need number to justify it’s changes; just the idea of what a dev wants it to be.

I think your core grief with Anet is misplaced, because you again assume that Anet is measuring class performance by ‘kicked from raids’ frequency, which goes back to how the class is positioned in the meta. I’m so certain this is not the case because of observing the industry, that I question how sincere people are or what their actual MMO experience is when they refer to it when complaining about balancing.

You may not care, but this isn’t about you caring; it’s about how MMO devs behave and how they do things. My observation is that other MMO’s have as significant deviations between class performance as GW2 … that’s not an accident or a conscious decision. It’s just a consequence of how difficult it is to achieve. Therefore, it’s massively unreasonable to keep pushing it in their faces as a failure to develop the classes, especially if the measuring stick is something PLAYERS conceived and not the devs. Again, the meta is not a Anet conception, even if it’s a result of their development of the game.

That’s all good but it still stands that every time someone refers to meta and class balance, they are way off the mark, like you did. Anet doesn’t strive to balance according to what is meta.

And I completely disagree; Anet should not work with speed clear guilds for class balancing goals because speed clearing has nothing to do with how the game is designed and people in those guilds have no idea what Anet has planned for the game or what direction it’s going.

I pick that way because that’s not just Anet, it’s every MMO I’ve ever played. There is no effort to make every class ‘equivalent’ to ensure they are all meta.

Your theif example illustrates what I said perfectly. Condi was buffed on thief, as a consequence, it became meta … do you honestly think Anet sat around a table and decided that condi theif should become meta over necro, etc ,… ? That makes no sense.

Even barring all that … if they are or aren’t attempting to balance to meta, obviously it doesn’t happen, so people using that as a measure of performance are just dreaming.

Cynz.9437:

Obtena.7952:

My point is, why do you assume that Anet working on balance has the goal of making all classes ‘equal’ for play? There is lots of evidence to suggest that’s not the case, not just in GW2 but lots of other MMO’s as well.

I think that’s a terrible assumption to have. Why does anyone even have the impression that balance means making classes equally desireable for meta, especially when meta is a player-implemented idea and no one that Anet acknowledges as any kind of measure of class performance? That makes no sense, in ANY game.

Meta is dictated by devs actually. Players have no way of changing spells/traits etc. And there is always best/optimal build based on what is available.

Meta is simply a consequence of game mechanics; it has nothing to do with how Anet decides to balance classes; that much should be obvious to anyone who is paying any amount of attention. OT be more clear, you speak like meta is a target when really, it’s just the result.

I mean, if that is the case that Anet balances according to meta, it’s certainly in direct opposition to most of the game changes I’ve seen and experienced. The best part is when people deny it, but they are seeing and experiencing the same game changes I am … I guess it’s more fun to argue on the forum than it is to simply admit that meta isn’t a measure of class balance for the devs. in fact, In most games I’ve played, that’s what is happening.

It’s free for you to log in and try it yourself. Only you can determine if it works for you.

My point is, why do you assume that Anet working on balance has the goal of making all classes ‘equal’ for play? There is lots of evidence to suggest that’s not the case, not just in GW2 but lots of other MMO’s as well.

I think that’s a terrible assumption to have. Why does anyone even have the impression that balance means making classes equally desireable for meta, especially when meta is a player-implemented idea and no one that Anet acknowledges as any kind of measure of class performance? That makes no sense, in ANY game.

DiogoSilva.7089:

I give you: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stat_changing
You are welcome.
Also all you need for raids is exotic if you can pull your weight. Hardly a gear treadmill when you can get a full set of decent gear in aproximately 3 hours or less.

Stat swapping is a bandaid solution.

If I need berserker for X content and viper for Y content, how much would a daily or a weekly swap swap cost me, taking into account the price of upgrades too?

Obtena.7952:

No, that is not what people typically refer to as gear treadmill. So no, you are incorrect. People kicking you because of gear they think you should have is not the same as obtaining higher levels of gear to advance to the next level of raid or content.

If your DPS gear gets outdated by new gear that offers superior DPS, then you have a case of higher level gear being released over time. People will kick because you’re having mathematically inferior stats than you should have.

Maybe, but that’s not what people mean by gear treadmill. What you are talking about is a stat swap, not a higher tier, so again, that’s not what is typically defined as a gear treadmill. You’re old set isn’t obsolete because people don’t want you to use it. Zerker gearing is STILL highly relevant for every class in this game.

Even if you want to define it that way … I still don’t see a problem. Getting an alternate set of exotic gear is an easy matter; nothing that any reasonable person would call a treadmill.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Obtena.7952:

Anet has successfully decoupled gear treadmill (the reason I don’t like other games) from the ability to be successful and rewarded. They have done that by recognizing that the pablum of gear treadmill linked to progression that other MMO’s give you is NOT the only way to provide players an engaging MMO experience.

That is also wrong.

GW2 has gear treadmill because of poor balance and design. When you grind to get a full set of berserker gear, and then get into raids or high level fractals and you find yourself get kicked because you don’t have condition gear, what is that? Is that not gear treadmill?

No, that is not what people typically refer to as gear treadmill. So no, you are incorrect. People kicking you because of gear they think you should have is not the same as obtaining higher levels of gear to advance to the next level of raid or content.

Funny … as a casual player myself, I don’t see why the casual experience is even affected by the presence of Legendary gear. I don’t need it and I perform just as well as anyone that does have it.

So other than the stinging sensation of jealousy, why is this an issue? I mean … to be frank, the unrealistic thing is that any casual player expects legendary or any other gear for that matter, at the same rate as someone that isn’t a casual player .. THAT makes no sense to me.

Will.9785:

I agree that high level content is not rewarding… but do you know why you feel that way? Its because you needed to get the end level items (ascended gear) before you could even do that content.

The reward structure in this game falls apart between exotic and ascended items.

Only if you define increasingly better gear as the only reward in the game. You see, the difference between most gear slots from exotic and ascended gear is INTENTIONALLY small because Anet does not want people to focus on gear as a reward to playing the game in the sense that you are rewarded with better performance. In otherwords, if the increase in performance is insignificant (for most cases) between exotic and ascended gear, then reasonable players wouldn’t associate that jump as a THE reward they are after in the first place.

It’s a very smart approach, only if you can break yourself of the idea that game rewards have to be related to gear stats increases in the first place. That’s easy if you have a deeper understanding of why you play THIS game.

Djinn.9245:

IMO, a game should not have any way for only a small number of players to be more powerful than the rest.

Good thing that GW2 doesn’t do that; every player has access to the activities that reward players. The only restriction to getting gear in this game is the individual player.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Obtena.7952:

If successful completion of the content and having fun with people you team with isn’t enough of an incentive to do the content, then you need to evaluate why you even play MMO’s in the first place, especially GW2.

GW2, yes. MMOs in general, no way..

And to be completely honest, that’s completely by game design. I don’t think Anet or the players would want it ANY OTHER WAY! It is THE primary reason to enjoy this game; Anet has successfully decoupled gear treadmill (the reason I don’t like other games) from the ability to be successful and rewarded. They have done that by recognizing that the pablum of gear treadmill linked to progression that other MMO’s give you is NOT the only way to provide players an engaging MMO experience.

Dindin.2378:

tl:dr: being equals is not fun, the fun is in being different, there has to be a king and someone who dreams to someday become that king. I think.

This shows you don’t get what GW2 is successful … There does NOT have to be a king and someone who dreams it’s them someday. If GW2 can trick/convince/fool people into the fact that no king exists, then the only thing left is to enjoy a back-to-basics RPG style game … by simply playing it and being successful and having fun with firends … unfortunately, there are few people around that know what that means anymore that it’s actually a struggle to sell that message to people.

Fallesafe.5932:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

So,you’re saying you want a continuous gear treadmill? Because eventually you’re going to hit max stats without one if you play long enough and you’ll be right where you are right now.

It depends on your definition of a “gear treadmill.” I think that:

1) There should absolutely be some concrete incentive to do fractals and raids.
2) Every new expansion should introduce gear that’s at least a little better than what was previously available.
3) “Legendary” weapons and armor should offer more than a drop-down box for stat combos… and a trail of glitter on the ground.

If successful completion of the content and having fun with people you team with isn’t enough of an incentive to do the content, then you need to evaluate why you even play MMO’s in the first place, especially GW2.

As for the other points, they don’t really make sense. There WAS better gear introduced with HoT … many stat combos didn’t exist that are better for many builds. What you think SHOULD be for Legendary items is irrelevant. Frankly, it seems to me that you have chosen a game that doesn’t suit your needs. GW2 does not follow the trends set by other MMO’s; that’s it’s ultimate appeal.

SkyShroud.2865:

Obtena.7952:

SkyShroud.2865:

Obtena.7952:

SkyShroud.2865:

Obtena.7952:

SkyShroud.2865:

Obtena.7952:

SkyShroud.2865:

P2w game yo, I didn’t sign up for this.

You have been ‘signing up’ for it the day watchwork pick was released … it’s a problem for you just now? That’s not really an honest assessment of what you think is it?

Foolish comparison. Watchwork sporcket is a not so valuable currency elsewhere unbound magic is required for the many selectable ascended trinkets and some recipes. Furthermore, the gathering tool purchasable from those vendors are merely half the quantity which signify the value of such a tool. Are you trying hard to justify p2w contents?

Sorry, there is no foolish comparison there. The guy has a problem with P2Win items … except he’s been playing a game that has arguably BETTER P2Win items in it for years prior to this release. I mean, what you said doesn’t even make sense … Watchwork pick is a not so valuable currency? I would argue that converting sprockets to gold is the MOST valuable currency you can get. Once you get what you need with magic, then what? I have a never ending need for gold.

Golds is valuable? Really? Magic bound is required for you to get ascended trinkets, plainly gear advantage. I am pretty sure you a pure PvE player, it doesn’t matter for PvEr of course, why would PvEr care about p2w anyway.

If you aren’t going to recognize the value of the most versatile, applicable currency in this game, there is no reason to recognize your argument BASED on the value of a currency.

Furthermore, you are also wrong that Magix if required for you to get ascended trinkets and even though you can get trinkets with magic, it doesn’t necessarily come from these tools.

In short, your arguments just don’t make sense.

Oh, versatile, you mean like gold can buy unbound magic, map tokens and etc? It can’t and so how versatile is that?

Just because gold can’t buy those things doesn’t mean it’s not more versatile of a currency than unbound magic. Gold buys a great deal more things than magic every does. If trinkets are the BEST things that magic can get, then you just sunk your own argument for magic being more versatile and desirable than gold is.

Besides, the argument here isn’t is magic is more useful than gold (though it is), it’s if getting magic from tools is better than getting gold. It’s not and the limited number of items you can get from magic is just ONE of those reasons, not THE reason.

Right….
You were talking about sprocket so let talks about sprocket a bit more. Sure, you can sell sprocket to turn it to golds. Yes, but you know why it isn’t really valuable? It is because you can buy them with golds, is exchangeable trade item. How about magic? Magic is like karma but not as plentiful as karma. You can convert it golds just like karma by turning it to trade-able items and put it on TP. However, just like karma, you can’t buy magic with golds. Since golds is your only argument, golds can’t buy magic but magic can be convert to gold, any more you want to know?

Regardless, I only go along with your golds whatever talks because I want to see how you link it up to p2w but I fail to see it. What are you trying say?

Edit: Actually you just highlighted the p2w aspect of the item. It is not tradeable, is a personal gain like the logic behind the 5% bonus damage argument above. Thanks man.

Magic is not more valuable than gold, otherwise there would be little interest in it’s conversion to gold in the first place. It’s only buys a limited number of items and to do that, also requires other currencies that you have to farm; therefore, magic itself is worthless as a currency once you purchase the few items you can with it … ironically, those secondary currencies are farmed in the same area you can readily farm magic. The thing that makes gold a more valuable currency is exactly the fact that it’s exchangeable for goods and back to gold.

Anyways, the whole point of the P2Win here is that IF someone would conclude that this is a P2Win game because of being able to purchase items that drop currencies, then obviously that’s a rather ignorant view, considering you could buy gold via gems since day one. Complaining you can get magic with a set of gathering tools is minuscule to the “WIN” buying power of gems.

SkyShroud.2865:

Obtena.7952:

SkyShroud.2865:

Obtena.7952:

SkyShroud.2865:

Obtena.7952:

SkyShroud.2865:

P2w game yo, I didn’t sign up for this.

You have been ‘signing up’ for it the day watchwork pick was released … it’s a problem for you just now? That’s not really an honest assessment of what you think is it?

Foolish comparison. Watchwork sporcket is a not so valuable currency elsewhere unbound magic is required for the many selectable ascended trinkets and some recipes. Furthermore, the gathering tool purchasable from those vendors are merely half the quantity which signify the value of such a tool. Are you trying hard to justify p2w contents?

Sorry, there is no foolish comparison there. The guy has a problem with P2Win items … except he’s been playing a game that has arguably BETTER P2Win items in it for years prior to this release. I mean, what you said doesn’t even make sense … Watchwork pick is a not so valuable currency? I would argue that converting sprockets to gold is the MOST valuable currency you can get. Once you get what you need with magic, then what? I have a never ending need for gold.

Golds is valuable? Really? Magic bound is required for you to get ascended trinkets, plainly gear advantage. I am pretty sure you a pure PvE player, it doesn’t matter for PvEr of course, why would PvEr care about p2w anyway.

If you aren’t going to recognize the value of the most versatile, applicable currency in this game, there is no reason to recognize your argument BASED on the value of a currency.

Furthermore, you are also wrong that Magix if required for you to get ascended trinkets and even though you can get trinkets with magic, it doesn’t necessarily come from these tools.

In short, your arguments just don’t make sense.

Oh, versatile, you mean like gold can buy unbound magic, map tokens and etc? It can’t and so how versatile is that?

Just because gold can’t buy those things doesn’t mean it’s not more versatile of a currency than unbound magic. Gold buys a great deal more things than magic every does. If trinkets are the BEST things that magic can get, then you just sunk your own argument for magic being more versatile and desirable than gold is.

Besides, the argument here isn’t is magic is more useful than gold (though it is), it’s if getting magic from tools is better than getting gold. It’s not and the limited number of items you can get from magic is just ONE of those reasons, not THE reason.

SkyShroud.2865:

Obtena.7952:

SkyShroud.2865:

Obtena.7952:

SkyShroud.2865:

P2w game yo, I didn’t sign up for this.

You have been ‘signing up’ for it the day watchwork pick was released … it’s a problem for you just now? That’s not really an honest assessment of what you think is it?

Foolish comparison. Watchwork sporcket is a not so valuable currency elsewhere unbound magic is required for the many selectable ascended trinkets and some recipes. Furthermore, the gathering tool purchasable from those vendors are merely half the quantity which signify the value of such a tool. Are you trying hard to justify p2w contents?

Sorry, there is no foolish comparison there. The guy has a problem with P2Win items … except he’s been playing a game that has arguably BETTER P2Win items in it for years prior to this release. I mean, what you said doesn’t even make sense … Watchwork pick is a not so valuable currency? I would argue that converting sprockets to gold is the MOST valuable currency you can get. Once you get what you need with magic, then what? I have a never ending need for gold.

Golds is valuable? Really? Magic bound is required for you to get ascended trinkets, plainly gear advantage. I am pretty sure you a pure PvE player, it doesn’t matter for PvEr of course, why would PvEr care about p2w anyway.

If you aren’t going to recognize the value of the most versatile, applicable currency in this game, there is no reason to recognize your argument BASED on the value of a currency.

Furthermore, you are also wrong that Magix if required for you to get ascended trinkets and even though you can get trinkets with magic, it doesn’t necessarily come from these tools.

In short, your arguments just don’t make sense.

Devilman.1532:

I know they have people assigned to different areas friend but perhaps a reassignment of people assets to more important things. Then again the gemstore is the cashcow… silly me.

Um, that ‘silly’ gemstore cashcow keeps this game FREE to play. I dunno about you but that’s a pretty important thing to lots of people.

SkyShroud.2865:

Obtena.7952:

SkyShroud.2865:

P2w game yo, I didn’t sign up for this.

You have been ‘signing up’ for it the day watchwork pick was released … it’s a problem for you just now? That’s not really an honest assessment of what you think is it?

Foolish comparison. Watchwork sporcket is a not so valuable currency elsewhere unbound magic is required for the many selectable ascended trinkets and some recipes. Furthermore, the gathering tool purchasable from those vendors are merely half the quantity which signify the value of such a tool. Are you trying hard to justify p2w contents?

Sorry, there is no foolish comparison there. The guy has a problem with P2Win items … except he’s been playing a game that has arguably BETTER P2Win items in it for years prior to this release. I mean, what you said doesn’t even make sense … Watchwork pick is a not so valuable currency? I would argue that converting sprockets to gold is the MOST valuable currency you can get. Once you get what you need with magic, then what? I have a never ending need for gold.

Psientist.6437:

Obtena.7952:

Here is the funny part about this thread.

3 years ago we got the Sprocket mining pick and all the complainers made the exact same arguments, going so far as to say the thing should be removed from the game, even at the cost of lost gems to the players. Anyone with a shred of common sense knew that such an item wasn’t going anywhere and if Anet was smart, they would release more.

So be rest assured that if you have a problem with “paying 2 win” or whatever other far out argument you might have against these kinds of items or trying to get a refund/exchange, it’s impact on the devs is very low to absolutely nothing.

The studio should release more buffs for harvesting tools; players obviously want them. Doesn’t change the fact that this product line is poorly designed. Bundling the buff with cosmetics makes it more difficult for any given player to find optimal value in the product line. As currently designed, the only players that find optimal value are those whose cosmetic choice and buff choice align with how the studio chooses to bundle them. It would be a shame if that argument made no impact.

Perhaps, but that’s what Anet has demonstrated to us for the last 4 years now. I don’t doubt this is a business decision, not a pragmatic one.

SkyShroud.2865:

P2w game yo, I didn’t sign up for this.

You have been ‘signing up’ for it the day watchwork pick was released … it’s a problem for you just now? That’s not really an honest assessment of what you think is it?

There is a link between Anet making money and the way looting works. They aren’t going to make it easy for you to sell your inventory junk anytime soon.

You belong to the community you make.

Here is the funny part about this thread.

3 years ago we got the Sprocket mining pick and all the complainers made the exact same arguments, going so far as to say the thing should be removed from the game, even at the cost of lost gems to the players. Anyone with a shred of common sense knew that such an item wasn’t going anywhere and if Anet was smart, they would release more.

So be rest assured that if you have a problem with “paying 2 win” or whatever other far out argument you might have against these kinds of items or trying to get a refund/exchange, it’s impact on the devs is very low to absolutely nothing.

Sure, but that’s not based on what is true. From a PUG standpoint, I have no more faith in anyone’s ability to play the game just because they are outfitted with meta vs. not. Teaming players just because they setup for meta is just as arbitrary a condition on success as the colour they dye their armor.

That still doesn’t change the fact that not being unique or the ‘top’ class in something makes the class useless in teams.

The arguments that a class needs to have ‘unique’ and ‘top end’ things to bring to team content, otherwise it’s a crap class, are nonsense to begin with. I will leave it to y’all to think about why that’s true. You absolutely do not need something unique to be useful in team content and you absolutely don’t need to have one thing that the class is the best at to be useful either.

I almost seems like everytime anyone uses these arguments, they have never teamed with good players that know how their class works to be successful in raids … maybe you all team scrubs that barely get by because they play meta .. poorly.

Not saying it’s not possible, but the game isn’t made that way and we know it. It reflects just as much in PVP as it does in PVE. If you’re going to make a valid comparison to attrition in PVP, then we ARE talking about the significant differences between how a Healer/tank PVP’s against DPS classes in other games; GW2 comes no where CLOSE to that level of difference.

I just don’t get that mentality; a condi-damage can’t equate to a certain amount of a person’s HP … but if that’s a burst from a power build, no one has any problem with that. It makes no sense; condi damage gives you options to react, yet people don’t seem to want that opportunity. OK, I guess you just want to compete with twitch players and QQ your class sucks … I dunno.

Regardless, this game has never rested on any particular ‘state’; it seems sensitive to even minor changes. So the fact that people are complaining about game mechanics evolving AGAIN is pretty amusing to me, especially the guy that was complaining that he didn’t like stagnant mechanics!