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That’s not really a valid point to make; it goes without saying that devs make mistakes on programming and developing the game. This isn’t new or unique to GW2 or any other MMO; there is no need to apologize to players for any mistake that players can exploit; they exist, we know it, they know it. The existence of these things are honest mistakes; you’re trying to vilify Anet for them to deflect the attention from the fact that players are exploiting the situation; that’s unreasonable. Take some responsibility, be honest and take a mature approach.
In addition, it’s not even clear what they would apologize for … it’s certainly not because they correctly called out players for using exploits. It would be rather stupid for them to be wasting time apologizing for all the things in game that are wrong. There simply isn’t any value in making blanket apologizes for bugs and oversights like this.
Are they consistent? Exploits are addressed according to many factors and it’s up to Anet to decide which ones to communicate and address in what order. Anyone that thinks they can just rush out, apologize for all the ‘mistakes’ and fix every exploit in the game has a very unrealistic view of how MMO’s are developed.
That still doesn’t change the fact that getting some absolution from Anet removes guilt for exploiting, which I think this thread does a very good job giving the indication.
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Which patch notes? I don’t see any such change for today.
Looks like the OP is quoting patch notes from almost exactly 1 year ago.
LUL what ?!?!?
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-April-19-2016/first#post6102561
Note that 2016 is not 2017.
And why exactly should slow completely overpower quickness?
Because quickness is a more common and slow is less common.
This argument is absurd, by that logic then we should also claim that:
- Reveal should last for 10 seconds because stealth is more common and reveal is not.
Absurd or not, you still haven’t presented us with a reason for why Slow shouldn’t overpower and provide benefits beyond negating quickness….
All that I can say at this point is that it’s players that take the risk for using exploits. If you think weak semantic arguments can ‘save you’ from Anet taking action against you for using an exploitable situation, you will learn the hard way if that’s necessary. It’s not about any admissions or pointing fingers; if you use exploits, you break the TOS and you can be held accountable and dealt with as Anet sees fit.
No it doesn’t sound right, but that’s not an analogous situation either so … /shrug.
Anet fixing this situation is an admission of the mistake that was made here; like I already pointed out to you, these situations are typically the result of the developer creating the situation so there is no way for Anet to avoid that admission.
You simply don’t like the fact that they correctly identify players for abusing it and sending a warning. It’s the player’s risk to ignore this warning. Presenting irrelevant, alternative exploitable situations would be considered rather weak evidence to justify exploiting, but that’s just me I guess.
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Anet handles these situations how they see fit; what I think about any particular one (or what you think) is completely irrelevant. Just because you might not agree with them doesn’t give you license to abuse other exploits … and you shouldn’t be giving anyone the idea through this thread that it does. The risk is with players if they do so. There is no relation between these situations; exploiting any one of them can get a player in trouble. So the ghost thief argument to justify this situation is just nonsense.
None of this deflection changes the fact that there can be serious consequences for people that exploit in the game. Anet is giving the correct message and being very clear.
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Anet is not exercising any shade of grey here; it’s a clear abuse of the gun with a specific trait and they have made a post indicating it’s being addressed as such. Whether ghost thief is an exploit or not has no bearing on this discussion. None. The idea that Anet should turn a blind eye or take it easy on players because ‘other maybe exploits’ is absolutely ridiculous. It’s not unreasonable for players to be held accountable for using exploits, regardless of the presence of possible other exploits in the game. Indeed, I would be willing to bet there are plenty of others out there just waiting for players to find them and none of those are excuses to run around to abuse any single one of them. That thinking is so irresponsible.
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Those are assumptions and the comparison to Eve Online somewhat irrelevant; it’s a completely different business model than GW2. What you say aboue GW2 trending down is just as I said and it makes little sense to advert to new players for elements of the game they don’t even understand.
Even for vets … they KNOW about LS and even know it’s coming and can easily check it. Wasting money to advert LS to them is probably not a good ROI.
So you’re obfuscating the discussion with what you consider is another exploit in the game, just to justify shrugging off the responsibility and consequence of using exploits?
That’s sure is some bewildering logic you got there, but I’m doubtful that’s an effective way to think. The fact remains that people that exploit are responsible for their own actions, regardless of how many situations exist in the game that can be exploited; it’s in fact quite irrelevant, so I see nothing about the ghost theif that relates to what we are discussing here. I think it’s safe to say that we have to work on the premise that people can act in a mature and responsible manner when dealing with these serious situations. If not, then it’s simply not in the interest of the good of the players; a selfish attempt to justify questionable actions.
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Again, you don’t think Anet shouldn’t point the finger at the people exploiting … for exploiting? That must be another one of those ‘interesting’ ideas ….
No one is saying there isn’t an oversight here … most exploits are in fact, oversights of the developers; it goes without saying and it’s certainly not a reason for saying they are responsible for players exploiting these situations. That doesn’t make them culpable for the fact that players doing the exploiting; that doesn’t excuse players for taking responsibility for using the exploit. There is no grey area here; the damage it produced was obviously out of line with what a single player should be doing. The negativity of the remarks demonstrate nothing more than how much players want to distance themselves from taking responsibility for abusing an obvious exploit. It’s pretty sad actually.
The fix, whatever it is, is irrelevant and to say people are upset because they don’t trust Anet to fix the gun is just deflecting … NO one used the gun until they discovered the exploit in the first place and the only people using the guns were those that exploited them.
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I can’t imagine what Anet would ‘hype’ at this time … the continuation of a living story that only current players would understand? Why would anyone not playing the game even care about that? Personally, i think there is very little gain in advertising a 5 year old game to new players that’s F2P that isn’t so obscure that MMO players have never heard of it to begin with.
Its also advertising for former players, and if your new content has no appeal for old players and new players you are going to keep contracting.
I guess you are saying guild wars days of growth and increased earnings are over? or are you saying that they should start promoting the game when they get some more new content that actually might appeal to people who arent playing right now?
Increased Earnings? no. but growth … probably. Let’s not pretend that the trend for MMO’s as they grow long in the tooth is ever up. Maybe you get a blip for expansions, but the point of adverts at this point wouldn’t be to recover AFK players … those players know what they left. They are waiting for something big, if at all.
To be fair, I think how they have handled this ‘victimless’ exploit is perfectly reasonable. Handling it with more levity would have simply made it seem like they don’t take these things seriously, which would have been a much worse move than whatever lack of PR you think exists.
Frankly, there IS no PR when dealing with these things, other than to be honest with players. If Anet’s goal was to make players exploiting feel like they will be ‘OK’, that’s the wrong message. The message here should (and does feel like)
“You were exploiting” Nothing more needs to be said. We are adults here; we know the risks for that. Time to take some responsibility here.
Nope. Dont agree. Not going to rehash the same things again. You’re free to keep your opinion, I certainly don’t see Arenanet in the same light.
Fair enough but no, I think I will exercise the right to express my opinion, as I believe it’s important to understand why this can’t just be treated as lightheartedly as you felt it should have been.
I know that it’s hard to understand it but the idea that Anet should give exploiting players a warm fuzzy feeling that it was OK isn’t the correct approach here; handling exploits is done with a serious approach. Nothing kills a game faster than developers giving the impression that they aren’t serious about players exploiting the game. No rehash needed; any reasonable player knows the deal; most people doing this should be thankful the repercussions were not more severe if we are being honest and mature in this discussion.
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To be fair, I think how they have handled this ‘victimless’ exploit is perfectly reasonable. Handling it with more levity would have simply made it seem like they don’t take these things seriously, which would have been a much worse move than whatever lack of PR you think exists.
Frankly, there IS no PR when dealing with these things, other than to be honest with players. If Anet’s goal was to make players exploiting feel like they will be ‘OK’, that’s the wrong message. The message here should (and does feel like)
“You were exploiting” Nothing more needs to be said. We are adults here; we know the risks for that. Time to take some responsibility here.
What part of that very simply announcement was made to sound like a grand deal? I would call that announcement very subdued.
I’m suggesting only that players shouldn’t be so offended when they are called out for what they are. You don’t think it’s reasonable that you are to fault if you saw an acted on an opportunity to use this unintended and obviously broken effect? That’s …. interesting.
Here is some dose of reality that I think players like to overlook. It’s irrelevant if Anet created the opportunity. Anet decides how to deal with exploits and the players using them. Maybe you think it’s unfair Anet is calling out players here … I think it’s necessary; Anet can not afford to present themselves as handling these situations in an unbalanced manner.
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People using exploits isn’t ONLY a function of Anet providing the means to do it. The people are actually MORE responsible for the use of exploits than Anet is; creating opportunity does not make them culpable. It’s very disingenuous to simply dismiss player culpability here. Just because exploitable situations exist, doesn’t make it any less of burden on the player to avoid them.
Put it this way … the risk isn’t with Anet if players abuse their access to Anet’s servers. And yes, players using exploits, especially easily detected ones like this … are exploiters. Every single person using this looked at this, said “Wow …”, then went out of their way to get frost guns.
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So you’re mad that people got called exploiters? That’s funny considering anyone using this trick knew it was OPed to begin with or they wouldn’t have bothered getting the event and buying stacks of frost guns in the first place. Anyone using and not acknowledging the amounts of bleed available from this combo seems really dishonest.
I mean, what’s happened here with people using the frost gun defines exploit quite well actually.
1. It’s unintended by the devs
2. Of course it’s in the game and overlooked … hence Anet fixing it. If it wasn’t overlooked, Anet would have changed it in anticipation or left it as is because they didn’t think it a big deal … it goes without saying no?
3. People know it’s too good to be true, but using it anyways.
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I can’t imagine what Anet would ‘hype’ at this time … the continuation of a living story that only current players would understand? Why would anyone not playing the game even care about that? Personally, i think there is very little gain in advertising a 5 year old game to new players that’s F2P that isn’t so obscure that MMO players have never heard of it to begin with.
I don’t get your point. The combination did more damage than was obviously intended, so Anet changed it. Your tone indicates you find this unreasonable. I can’t imagine why. I don’t think I’m alone.
Wow. Did i not say i dont care about the frost gun change. It was what justine said afterwards, that necros taking chill skills to proc deathly chill is equally as broken as frost gun. kittening comprehension please.
You don’t care? maybe I’m wrong but … you started the thread? So you started the thread about something you don’t care about? Yes, you will have to excuse me if my comprehension is lacking here because I don’t comprehend the fact that you would start a thread about something you don’t care about that is getting fixed as well as the fact that you seem to want to argue with people, again about something you are telling me you don’t care about …
Maybe you can clarify what you DO care about as you obviously continue to ‘discuss’ the change?
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I don’t get your point. The combination did more damage than was obviously intended, so Anet changed it. Your tone indicates you find this unreasonable. I can’t imagine why. I don’t think I’m alone.
Then every freaking environmental object that does bleed, poison, any condition that can be buffed from a trait is an exploit.
Its kittening called synergy. It was this thing they had i GW1. Not carebears2
No they aren’t, because they could have different parameters limiting their application. Obviously, Frost gun didn’t, hence the nerf. Frankly, I think anyone complaining about this fix cares little for the game and how unintended play affects it. I would be careful here.
Not to say that we have good or bad balance in this game but it’s funny to see how many people mistake poor gameplay for a lack of balance. GW2 is certainly easy to make that mistake; many people are highly capable of playing ‘badly balanced’ classes. As much as Anet tries, they can’t bring balance to bad players.
Furthermore, there is so little gain to be made from what we think of as balance, I’m surprised to see people mistaking balancing patches as primarily equalization efforts; those patches are simply ways to adjust within the class and should be in no way associated with equalizing play between classes. That’s just a ridiculous thing to even attempt in a game such as this.
The current system negates quickness AND on top of that it also slows down your skills.
I don’t see a problem with that … Why is it unreasonable that slow increase your skill coolddowns? It SHOULD have an effect beyond negating quickness, otherwise it’s a stupid skill. A skill like you describe has almost no point existing in this game.
Though consistency is nice, it’s a poor argument for insisting Anet expend resources to make it so. Without knowing the reason for the difference, little can be surmised. For all we know, that difference is intended and knowing why has no bearing on whether it should be there or not.
TL;DR I feel GW2 game lacks a way to level in PvE that rewards skilled gameplay.
For PVE? That’s partly correct … you can get through most PVE by pressing 1. Where you are wrong is that the idea that lacking this game mode indicates that it’s needed or Anet tried to put it in and failed. I see nothing that convinces me that there was any attempt to put solo content in open world that would challenge even the most base players.
I think the argument here is that it’s not really necessary in modern MMO’s, or probably ever was. I don’t know too many games where leveling rewards skilled gameplay to begin with, since most games don’t want to exclude players from the most common denominator among players. I mean, imagine getting STUCK leveling at some low level, just knowing it’s the common element of the whole game. Pretty discouraging.
Honestly, the whole idea of ‘leveling’ is something I wish MMO’s would just dump. it’s a throwback and is holding devs back from creating a truly progressive open world that is limited ONLY by the player, not the game. Levels are so artificial.
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And replace it with a class that actually has build diversity, has a ranged condi weapon, and doesn’t have to manage both cool downs and energy.
There is no need to delete Revenant to get that though … /GG
Polls have no use here. They give a false statistic because they represent only a small portion of the community that plays GW2.
I guess what I fear the most here isn’t the grind in itself, but the non-permeability of it all.
I want to put these runes into ascended armour. Unlike exotic armour, I can’t just use a BLT-salvage set on them and re-craft the armour. The beauty of ascended armour is that you can change it’s stats – but the idea of having to redo the Leadership rune farm?…
I don’t see how people can be so comfortable with putting leadership runes into anything but legendary armour.
There aren’t actually many times where I can think many people would want to swap stats. Maybe the highest level fractals or if you play a non-DPS role in raids. Otherwise, it’s very comfortable to put leaderships in non-legendary armors.
I mean, even WITH stat swapping, are leadership runes always good for every situation? If you concerned about optimizing, you wouldn’t have leadership runes in legendary armor; you would have ascended sets for whatever you were doing, one of those having leadership runes. The whole idea of legendary armors is just dumb to begin with, because you can’t optimize with it since the runes are fixed.
That’s a strawman if I ever saw one. Ascended was extremely cheap to acquire before HoT was released compared to now, so “veteran” players didn’t have to put in nearly the same amount of effort that a new player would to gear up in full ascended.
It’s not at all. Using some perceived difference between veteran and new players to justify a GLOBAL change to the game is just nonsense; Even if leather was cheap, it wouldn’t be the only barrier to a new person getting endgame gear, so it’s NOT a solution to the difference in capability between new and veteran players to get gear to begin with.
Anyone who thinks like this doesn’t understand the value a person gets from playing the game. My point still stands … you have new players wanting to be where veterans are at … after playing SIGNIFICANTLY less time … and then justifying that as a reason for cheap stuff. That’s just silly. If these people think there is so little value in playing the game to get things … then why would Anet EVER change the game to make it easier for them to play it LESS in the first place? These arguments are completely self-defeating.
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This reminds me of a thread where a guy complained that all his friends would try gw2 then quit. After a bit of discussion it turned out he was bad mouthing the game every time he gave advice and information, and then was surprised his friends formed a negative opinion of the game. This sounds like that sort of situation where someone asks about a feature and the adviser only gives information on one aspect and doesn’t give the alternatives, such as temple armor or dungeon armor. It assumes that the new person must craft and ignores that many people can get their exotics outside of crafting. Maybe next time you could discuss the alternatives to crafting and discuss how to get them to encourage your friends to play instead of only pointing out one way of acquisition (that you don’t like).
Is telling the truth “bad mouthing”?
My friend asks me: “hey, I want to burn people as condi engineer, its fun. And I heard they are really good!”
I tell him: “Yeah, they are one of the best. You’ll want viper armor, cause without 60% of condition duration from it you will lose a ton of damage. You can use cheap rampager, but the damage will be even worse, cause it has even less condi damage.”
After buying rampagers: “You know, this thing sucks. I spent 15 gold on this gear, but I kill enemies significantly worse than your condi ranger. I feel myself underpowered. What were you saying about viper stats?”
“It is craftable only. You’ll need around 90 cured hardened leather for a set.”
“I’ve got 5 so far, I’ll buy the rest. Wow, its 90 gold on the trading post just for one component. Is it hard and long to get it?”
“Well, for the last 2 months I was not farming it, just playing 1-2 hours a day and having fun, and got 30 cured h.leather.”
“Ok then, what about farm you mentioned?”
“There is a centaur farm. In a good group I usually get there 120 hides per hour.”
“Wow, thats more like it! I can get myself a good gear in less than an hour!”
“Well… 120 hides is like 4 cured leathers, if you are lucky with salvage rates.”
“I’m sorry, I know you like this game a lot, but this is too much for me. This is some kind of bullkitten I experienced in korean MMO’s. Let me know if anything changes.”
Exactly as I suspected … so tell us all how it’s reasonable that a new player wants to perform at the level of a veteran but not put in the time to do so? I mean … put another way … what is it about people being new to the game that justifies changing things? Weren’t we all new at some point? It’s not making any sense here. Why is the new guy special and deserves some lowered requirements for obtaining the same gear as a veteran player?
The only thing I see here is that your friend was mislead. No, he wasn’t going to match damage output of a full Viper Ascended with Rampagers but then again, he was wrong in assuming (or being told) that he kills enemies significantly worse. I don’t even see how that’s unreasonable if it is the case. Again, people just expecting to rushed to the ‘endgame’ by their buddies, and then realizing they don’t have the resources or even an understanding of what the game entails. I mean … he was complaining about spending 15G …
You’re whole premise is flawed; the game changes, and what is great with it. If you’re looking for the ‘great’ class, you don’t understand how MMO’s that have classes work.
That’s still not a reasonable complaint, because you get gold through normal gameplay that allows you to buy what you need off the TP, just like any of the other mats you list that you would buy off the TP as you needed.
Is it weird we want to have enough leather by playing the game normally which is how we get all our other materials? It sure is weird, because that’s not how people get all their other materials. Don’t try and paint the picture that no one every goes to the TP to get mats they need to craft EXCEPT for leather. That’s completely unbelievable, especially for anyone that has crafted.
It’s only weird because you fail to understand the simple human logic behind the argument.
People complain leather prices are high -> leather farm gets added so people have a way to get leather -> Leather farm doesn’t yield enough leather -> Players don’t really farm since they rather play the game normally -> Leather prices go up even further -> people still complain if not more.
Some players don’t want to farm (it’s boring, it doesn’t yield what i need, don’t have time, whichever) they want to play normally and get enough leather for whichever goal. This was previously more than possible as TP prices were reasonable. And then no one complained and such nostalgia feelings will last very long. Now prices go up, players see their extended goals go up in price if not out of reach, they complain.
I get why they complain … I also understand why these complaints make no sense.
That would be a reasonable solution if the price of the leather was equivalent to the price of the other materials.
That’s a reasonable solution EVEN if the prices aren’t the same, because the demands for all these materials differ. It’s literally impossible for Anet to do what you are implying; to balance drops with constantly varying demand to make similar pricing. Not going to happen. Complaining that the situation doesn’t match some player-required ideal is a non-starter. The economy isn’t built that way, so it makes no sense to base any argument on equivalent mat pricing;.
We should be able to get the same quantity of all materials by doing the same types of activities. Which is entirely true and reasonable.
Except you don’t need to do that to do that to get leather if you don’t want to, so yeah, no words in anyones mouths … just completing partial truths here. In addition, do you have proof you don’t get the same volume of materials by doing the same types of activities or is that just hyperbole? I’m pretty sure that when I do a run of whatever, I get pretty even amounts of all the materials we are talking about here. There is no correlation between leather stats on the TP that could possibly give anyone the idea that they don’t get even amounts of materials when they do content. If people are just going to invent nonsensical cause and effects, I have little reason to believe these discussions are just smoke and mirrors to unreasonably complain about leather prices.
Again, as much as you want to make this discussion about pricing, it’s not. The leather drop in Doric lake was NOT implemented to make leather cheap for people; it was put there to give people choice. If that choice isn’t reasonable to you, then you CAN continue to simply play the game wherever you see fit and take the leather you get doing that or purchase from the TP … nothing has changed that. If no options appeal to you, then like anything else on the TP, you really must not want it that badly in the first place. “I only want it if it’s cheap enough” is not a compelling reason for Anet to change anything.
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I dont’know where i have read it, but i rly like the idea of a sand shroud for the next elite specialisation.
I hope the next necro specialisation is support and/or power centred.
And i don’t hope the new skills are just another set of summon sth skills.. they could alter the existing while in the new specialisation if they want.
Sounds kitten wicked … like Egyptian priests in the desert kind of awesomeness. I see a theme around corrupting players, blinds and taking ‘mist’, ‘shadow’ or ‘darkness’ forms.
Weaponwise, it’s hard … I see people mentioning torch. Might be appropriate.
I can only say that if you’re approach to choosing classes is based on who’s better at X or Y, you’re not the kind of player that will be satisfied by balance changes to address that in the first place. I can remember a time when classes that were meta are not now … and that classes that were considered trash are good now. The game changes, and what is considered good with it. It’s a silly idea for Anet to chase the meta, which is what this thread advocates.
The best reason for you to pick a class and play it is not because it’s good at something or better than someone else. it’s because you like it. If you can’t do that, you’re next best thing is to roll one of everything and hip hop from one bandwagon to the next as the game evolves.
And to be fair, linking skills is a really smart way to answer you, because you only want to see what is the best, or worst, in the classes you are considering. You don’t look at them as a whole. Guardian is probably in the best place it has ever been, but you only want to complain about it because of a few cherry picked elements of the class that you don’t think are good enough. That argument goes no where.
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So our poor “new player” in 2 months will have gotten about 80-90 gold. Even if we want to go all out and spend about 200 gold on equipment (a one time purchase mind you), they would have to do the equivalent of 2 months worth of dailies.
Think of it as having to wait 2 months to craft something of basic necessity. Its not ascended (or legendary) gear, its exotic. It is heavily implied by Anet that exotic is normal (or “default”) lvl 80 gear, all HoT openworld content was balanced for it. Talking about balance: exotic weapons are much easily and cheaply crafted, and materials for a whole set can be easily gathered in several days by any player.
The best part about your story about your friend was the part where you guys considered using rampager’s armor as a substitute until he was in a position to get the gear he wanted. Oh wait …
This is probably the most egregious thing about using ‘new players’ as the motivation to change things in the game … because no one considers that people that have the means to craft these end game armors have been at it for hundreds or thousands of hours of gametime. Then we have people trying to get their friends to that point after a marathon 15 hour leveling session to 80 … then complaining they can’t do things that are ‘necessary’ that other 1000 hour players can do. These people should stick to FPS games. Like it or not, MMO’s have this very real thing that relates game access to time spent. You can’t sneak around that. And then to blame the game for it … I mean, that’s silly; people need to have very realistic expectations for getting to these levels of gameplay.
It’s not the leather preventing your friends from being successful at the game; it’s the preconceived notions that they have been fed by their ingame friends that they will suck and not have fun playing the game if they don’t get full ascended Viper gear on their condi engineer. They were sold the game as a job to accumulate stuff to not suck, not as something fun where they end up with mats and gold they needed through that gameplay anyways.
I love that people say you’re “lazy” if you don’t want to do the leather farm. Kind of like we’re lazy if we don’t want to do the silk farm? Or lazy if we don’t want to do the mithril farm? Or lazy if we don’t want to do the elder wood farm? Oh wait, I get all those things by PLAYING THE GAME NORMALLY.
Is it weird we want to have enough leather by playing the game normally which is how we get all our other materials?
That’s still not a reasonable complaint, because you get gold through normal gameplay that allows you to buy what you need off the TP, just like any of the other mats you list that you would buy off the TP as you needed.
Is it weird we want to have enough leather by playing the game normally which is how we get all our other materials? It sure is weird, because that’s not the primary way people get all their other materials in the first place. Don’t try and paint the picture that no one ever goes to the TP to get mats they need to craft … EXCEPT for leather, and therefore …. That’s completely unbelievable, especially for anyone that has crafted.
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People like me can see that this is not JUST about benefits to traders. In fact, this leather farm is FAR more friendly to new players to obtain leather than anything else that has ever been ingame. How you can’t see how that fits in with exactly what you say you want, I can’t begin to understand. If you want people to start being honest in their discussions, then YOU can start by acknowledging this.
Thread upon thread you are ignoring a simple fact: lake Doric centaur farm gives almost none T6 leather. So, being honest with each other, do you object this fact?
I dunno … what OTHER farm are you comparing that to? Almost none compared to …? Correct me if I’m wrong but unless there is some other secret T6 leather farm Anet hasn’t told us about that you have discovered, the idea that Doric Lake gives ‘almost none’ is a completely meaningless thing to say without some kind of REAL comparison? Being ambiguous doesn’t support any argument you want to make here.
You come here and try to vilify traders for the reason that Doric leather farm exists, claims it doesn’t help new players. When you are trounced on those ideas as being ridiculous, you make some completely unquantifiable statement that can’t be proven or disproven either way … and that’s your approach to honesty?
This is HONESTLY what I think; ‘Almost none’ or ‘lots’, the amount of leather you get is rather irrelevant; it’s COMPLETELY subjective to the individual farming it. I think that if you can get enough leather to get you started crafting something from a run, that’s a good amount. Maybe you think you should have a whole ascended armor’s amount of leather from a single run. No one is wrong here. The fact is that, as Anet said (which you aren’t really educating yourself with here), that …
When items are consciously farmable through a specific activity, players get to choose whether they’re worth farming, and that choice is a vote on the market price.
That can’t be more clear to players … you can CHOOSE how you get leather as well as any other player. It’s not about volume or price. So every single time you complain it’s ‘almost none’, it’s an argument that make no sense in the context of why Anet has put this in place; it’s completely irrelevant.
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So, sir, I can understand position of yours and Obtena. I do not respect it though. Mostly because I love this game, I want it to prosper, I want its community to prosper, and I want new players (and my friends) not to be scared away and frustrated. For me the health of community outweighs virtual profit of the few. But please, by the Six, don’t talk bulls*** about how current leather situation benefits anyone besides traders. Lets at least be honest.
People like me can see that this is not JUST about benefits to traders. In fact, this leather farm is FAR more friendly to new players to obtain leather than anything else that has ever been ingame. How you can’t see how that fits in with exactly what you say you want, I can’t begin to understand. If you want people to start being honest in their discussions, then YOU can start by acknowledging this.
Do not attempt to create the illusion that the leather drops in Doric Lake has been implemented solely for the benefit of traders. That’s simply untrue for a few reasons:
1. Because Anet told us why they did it and had nothing to do with filling traders pockets.
2. Because the things that traders do has a profoundly important role in moderating prices on the TP and that’s REALLY important for new and veteran players.
3. Traders don’t farm mats to sell them to ply their trade.
Sentiments, especially false ones, do not make any point you are trying to make any stronger. If you are a leather farm hater, I have good news for you … you can ignore it’s existence and it will be completely transparent to your gameplay.
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I don’t argue with whatever their intention is, because the result is obviously not working for players who are complaining here. It is irrational to me that you expect that there is less reason to complain just because you understand Anets reasoning, but you have zero clue about player reasoning.
You can defend whatever the intention is and what it is supposed to be, but if that doesn’t line up with player expectations or enjoyment then it doesn’t necessarily fail in that intention but it does fail for the average player.
You say there is less reason to complain, but you don’t even understand why players complain.
That outlook is completely unrealistic. Anet’s goal with the game has nothing to do with making sure that everything they do ensures that no player complains; that’s an unrealistic goal and a meaningless way for them to decide if a fix is needed. I know there is less reason to complain because the options were added to get leather.
I didn’t sat that the farm would never work for the general public so … dunno what you’re getting at. From where I sit, it’s working really well. GW2 conceptually wasn’t supposed to be a game where you farm your mats, that doesn’t mean Anet can’t add them if they think they are necessary for specific mats. Holding on to ideals … just because, makes no sense.
Again, look at the reason presented by someone above for why this exists; there is little reason to argue with me about it and think you ‘win’ somehow when you try to make me contradict myself. The words from Anet are right there … it’s them you want to argue with. I defend the desicion to add a leather farm because it the reasoning Anet presented to why they did it makes sense to me; it would be foolish to keep foisting up these ideals as claims to why things Anet does is wrong. I for one, am glad to see that Anet is willing to examine specific situations and implement solutions to those situations, even if it means we have exceptions to the ideals you hold so dear that make these solutions completely irrational to you.
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The “Leather Farm” produces little to no leather.
These anecdotes are not useful or true. What do you mean by this? It’s produced me LOTS of leather, and as a result, gold. This is true for anyone doing the same who is willing to farm it. There will be no reasonable discussion as long as people spout off these absolute, sensational ideas as factual.
The fact is that there is a statistical volume of leather that one can get from farming in Doric Lake. Whether that’s “little to no leather” is simply a matter of opinion. For a farming area that the game isn’t even supposed to have based on the game’s concept and compared to the previous methods to get leather from the open world, I would argue you get LOTS of leather from this area by farming it.
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There are two ways to get mats in the game and leather is exceptional in those regards … you’re opinion of how good those methods are doesn’t matter and how you want it implemented has no relevance. If you don’t want to use the sufficient ways that are available to obtain leather … you do without.
I think the concept of providing constructive feedback for pricing that someone thinks is too high on a mat that can be specifically farmed at anyone’s leisure is absolutely ridiculous; people are free to choose from all the ways available to get leather they want. I don’t get how this isn’t enough unless we appease the unreasonable thinking being demonstrated in this thread.
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yes it is, by default. If you don’t want to take that opportunity, complaining about prices on the TP is moot. I mean, unless you are going to petition Anet to simply mail you leather every day …
You seem to believe that you should be able to define what you are willing to do to get what you want in this game, and I suspect any other game. I’m afraid that’s not realistic. You can justify any reason why you should be able to do that you like but the game isn’t built around what you think things should be like.
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Obtena.7952I love it … if anything, T5 leather drops in SIGNIFICANT abundance in Doric lake. I mean, there is nothing less reasonable than complaining about the price of something you can farm hundreds of as a zerg. How lazy can people get? You wanted a leather farm to avoid the expensive prices on the TP for leather, then there is complaining about the price of T5 leather on the TP … and it’s the MOST frequent drop in Doric Light…
This is funny :-). Let’s see:
1. T5 drops in SIGNIFICANT abundance in Lake Doric (well, I wanted the old times when the T5 dropped in GW2 and not only in Lake Doric – not in abundance, but enough for anything I wanted to craft).
2. You can farm hundreds of these leathers as a zerg. Not by yourself, but as a zerg :-))
3. How lazy can people get? You wanted a leather farm to avoid the expensive prices on the TP for leather, then there is complaining about the price of T5 leather on the TP (OMG – do you ever read what you write? The players complained about the high prices. A farm point was invented. And now the players complains that the prices are even higher. Your conclusion – lazy people!)
4. and (T5 leather) it’s the MOST frequent drop in Doric Light…Let’s translate this. The players complained that the leather is too rare for the numerous uses it has and something to avoid the high prices on the TP is needed. ANet invented the “farming spot” to help the players. And although the T5 leather is dropping in a SIGNIFICANT abundance (not in the entire game, but only in Lake Doric and only if you are in a zerg), and despite the fact the T5 leather is the MOST frequent drop in Lake Doric, the prices in TP are higher now. We can safely conclude that all the “farming spot” invention was a failure. The things are not better, are worst than before.. So, I don’t think the players can be blamed for ANet’s failures.
Lazy people?? Hm, maybe you are a new player and you don’t know the game, but GW2 has more maps, not only Lake Doric. And also, in GW2 you can do many other things, not only to farm. In the old days, by playing in any other map and doing any other activities you had the leather required for your needs. Without using the TP. Now, you can achieve this only by playing Lake Doric and doing the farm, but only if you are in a zerg.
Still consider this as a successful measure?And a last mention: I don’t think the players ever asked for a farming in the case of leather. Remember that GW2 always had strict rules against the farming. The players acknowledged these rules. And not the players but ANet broke these rules first. The players asked for a reliable way to get leather. This is entirely different.
So, to answer your question “Who wanted a leather farm? ".
ANet wanted a leather farm. By this they openly admitted they made mistakes in the methods used to manage the leather. But instead of adjusting these methods, they preferred to invent this leather farm. In a game advertised by ANet as being against farming.
Nothing I have said changes … if you want leather you can farm it or you can buy it. There is even LESS reason now to complain about the price now than before Doric Lake.
Hold on … DEFLATING mithiril and wood prices? You guys need to check your facts.
I have some constructive feedback on leather prices too … if it’s not a price you are willing to pay, you have a great opportunity to farm leather … as intended.
Spending Mithril and Wood also requires leather in a lot of cases (Though not as badly as cloth). So, yes. Because the low supply for leather down, it has also reduced the demand for everything that would be eating more plentiful resources.
OK … but again, I will repeat, mithril and wood prices aren’t deflating; in fact mithril prices have increased recently, by a not insignificant amount and wood is maintaining it’s high prices that it’s had for over a year now. That contradicts what are you claiming should be happening.
You can claim a whole bunch of things, but the fact remains that if you want leather, you can farm it instead of buying it off the TP. I doubt highly Anet cares if you or anyone else does without leather just because you think the options you have available to you aren’t reasonable. That’s not a compelling argument.
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I love it … if anything, T5 leather drops in SIGNIFICANT abundance in Doric lake. I mean, there is nothing less reasonable than complaining about the price of something you can farm hundreds of as a zerg. How lazy can people get? You wanted a leather farm to avoid the expensive prices on the TP for leather, then there is complaining about the price of T5 leather on the TP … and it’s the MOST frequent drop in Doric Light … no wonder these complaints can’t be taken seriously.
Who wanted a leather farm? I want leather to show up more often the NORMAL way so that I can get it. I don’t want to wait around in Lake Doric to see if enough people want to do the centaur farm.
Who wanted a leather farm? Is that a serious question? Well, if people don’t want a leather farm, how hypocritcal is this thread? I mean … leather prices are too high … but people don’t want to farm the leather to avoid paying for it on the TP? None of that makes sense does it? Besides, you know as well as I do you get lots of leather just from events and stuff … you don’t need to do centaur farm to get leather, but that doesn’t matter if you aren’t willing to do much to get leather in the first place.
If you want the price of thick leather or hardened leather on the TP to come down, then sell all yours and increase the supply.
I really wonder if ppl understand how the TP actually works.
This very same argument occured about 4 months ago regarding the mystic coin price.In order to sell ours, we have to have a supply to sell. And there’s no point in selling it if we’re just going to have to buy it up again to use on what we were saving for.
Right now, Leather is an Economic Bottleneck strangling and artificially deflating the prices of Mithril, especeially Cloth, and even Wood because of the difficulty in acquiring it.
Hold on … DEFLATING mithiril and wood prices? You guys need to check your facts.
I have some constructive feedback on leather prices too … if it’s not a price you are willing to pay, you have a great opportunity to farm leather … as intended.
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I love it … if anything, T5 leather drops in SIGNIFICANT abundance in Doric lake. I mean, there is nothing less reasonable than complaining about the price of something you can farm hundreds of as a zerg. How lazy can people get? You wanted a leather farm to avoid the expensive prices on the TP for leather, then there is complaining about the price of T5 leather on the TP … and it’s the MOST frequent drop in Doric Light … no wonder these complaints can’t be taken seriously.
That doesn’t make much sense … that’s the wrong way to think about what shroud does in the first place because the unique class skills aren’t build around an ‘X’ or a ‘Y’ kind of build. In fact, if shroud doesn’t add anything to the build you want to use, you can completely ignore it. That’s the opposite of obstruction.
Yes but Necromancer is held back in many ways because we have shroud. In Anet’s eyes and on paper it is the best profession mechanic (2nd life bar + 5 extra skills) when in reality it isn’t half as good.
yeah … that doesn’t change what I said does it?
I think there is a case to be made against shroud when considering various builds people want to play, but shroud certainly doesn’t obstruct anyone from playing whatever build they want. I won’t be so presumptuous to say Anet thinks it’s the best profession mechanic; when did they ever say that? They wouldn’t. Let’s stick to what’s true shall we?
I don’t think there is honestly any discussion about trading shroud ability for … whatever. It’s the class mechanic. The tanky theme doesn’t hold the class back, it defines it. The idea that we simply ‘take it away’ for something else just doesn’t make sense, even if shroud does hold the class back compared to … whatever.
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For the people who think the leather farm is working, I will tell you, as someone with over 15 years of experience in finance, it is absolutely not working.
1) Increased supply should decrease cost for several reasons aside from direct selling into the market but also from reduced buy orders in the market.
2) Markets do not trade on what is going on now, they trade on where people expect things to go. For example, the leather market traded down before the farm even came out, then traded up when people realized the farm wasn’t going to impact pricing. So the idea we need to “wait and see” is false.
3) The other argument I often hear is “this was meant to stop leather prices from getting higher”. Well we’re at 2.70s on thick leather sections which is the most prevalent drop from the leather farm. If the leather farm can’t put a ceiling on the leather it produces, the ceiling theory clearly was wrong. Economically we will eventually hit a ceiling but considering thick leather is 2.70s and silk scraps are 0.75s, the ceiling needed to be 2 silver ago.
I think all of that is wrong. Increased supply doesn’t necessarily mean prices are affected (which wasn’t Anet’s goal anyways) and their is no desire for Anet to control market prices … they are exactly where they should be given the people that want to farm and sell leather and those than can’t be botherd. The idea that Anet implement changes as the game evolves in order to react to other changes they have made makes little sense, whether it’s the market or class balance.
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That doesn’t make much sense … that’s the wrong way to think about what shroud does in the first place because the unique class skills aren’t build around an ‘X’ or a ‘Y’ kind of build. In fact, if shroud doesn’t add anything to the build you want to use, you can completely ignore it. That’s the opposite of obstruction.
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