Skill types and unique class effects are not the same thing. Some people are having a really hard time with the notion that alacrity was a special effect that was deemed too powerful to be kept to a single class, yet none of the other ones were deemed that powerful?
1. I don’t see the difference
2. I don’t think Alacrity is a unique class effect … SHATTERING is a unique class effect, STEALING is a unique class effect, VIRTUES are a unique class effect. Alacrity is just a boon, like any other boon with no reasoning that it shouldn’t be available to other classes like any other boon. Personally, I think it’s simply a matter of people ignoring game evolution that this is a problem and that’s really unrealistic in an MMO.
What makes you think eventually similar skills won’t get shared? I mean … how many classes ‘share’ shouts? Traps? Stat team buffs? Runspeed trait? TONS of effects are ported to other classes. The arguments for sharing Alacrity, good or bad, are irrelevant. It’s DONE. The question is if there are improvements to the way Rev doles out Alacrity, not whether Rev should have it or not.
Not all autoattacks are made the same and FT and bomb are a fine example of that. You can correct me, I’m sure you will … how awesome is Bomb in PVP or WvW? I would be curious how well regarded it is for those things. I think we have all played plenty of MMOs where AOE skills that are spammable are considerably scaled back or neutered for exactly the reason I say here. This isn’t some new phenomenon. There would be nothing easy about simply making FT a power build weapon like the poster said it would be.
I said it wouldn’t be easy for FT to be made into a strong power weapons because of how OP’ed spammable, AOE direct damage builds are; MMO’s tend to not dump lots of damage dealing capabilities into weapons that have these configurations because of scalabilities. Again, bombs don’t target players so that keeps it from being comparable to the kind of impact a strong power FT weapon would have on large groups of players, which does directly target players. Not sure how that significant difference doesn’t cause you to rethink what you’re saying to me, but regardless … it’s not hard to see Anet won’t be doing that or if they do, it won’t be easy like the poster that I replied to said it would be.
I mean, you’re arguing pendantics here … Bombs don’t fall into what I’m talking about here … they don’t target people like an FT would, so just because bombs are ok as spammable AOE direct damage doesn’t mean FT could just as easy be that and not be OPed at the same time … This seems like the third time I’m saying it. Is there a communication issue here?
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Like I said … that’s a very shallow reason, not really worthy of consideration when making decisions to expand access of skills across classes.
And no, even classes that share skills are just ‘simply warriors with different dyes’. They are still significantly different in playstyle and still allows for choosing and customizing your gameplay … shared skills doesn’t have any relation to that whatsoever as a matter of fact.
If that’s your stance, it’s extremely flawed in logic.
I’ve yet to play an MMO where you don’t have to adapt your builds to the ebb and flow of the game changes. Better learn to get used to it. There is a reason you can re-stat ascended gear. You certainly don’t craft ascended armor and weapons because of the stat value jumps …
Sounds a lot of ‘non-raiders’ are actively fighting against going to the raid in any way. Bullheaded behaviour… just do the kitten escort. It’s really not harder than any dungeon. If you are not even willing to do that then live with it.
A sterling endorsement from the ‘raid community’. Come one, come all to experience the lack of joy and poor attitudes!
…Seriously, this doesn’t even affect raiders, so why kew about it?
The offensive thing here isn’t about raiders vs. non-raiders. It’s about people that do things to accomplish something vs. people that complain about doing something they don’t want to, then trying to negotiate their way into accomplishing something.
Sad to see people that can’t understand something beyond their own desires … in an MMO… I don’t even get the issue here … like a skill being exclusive to your class affects how you play the game or what satisfaction you get from it? Is that serious? It’s shallow at best if you do somehow derive some satisfaction from it. Some things you just get over because you know … being reasonable? maybe understanding there is a greater importance?
and no, you didn’t ‘pay for’ the game because of some exclusivity to a skill. That’s ridiculous.
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You aren’t going to find spammable AOE direct damage builds in MMO’s for a reason.
Have you not equipped the Bomb Kit?
Yes and? You’re comparing bomb to FT gameplay? I think that’s a hard sell don’t you? Maybe if the bombs actually targeted players, you would be on to something, but that’s not how they work.
You said “you aren’t going to find spammable AOE direct damage builds” and that’s precisely what power engi is.
I wouldn’t classify that in the same league as FT … you can lay bombs all you want, but if people don’t step on them … that’s a massive distinction from making FT a power weapon that can target players. So I’m pretty sure that’s why it’s not as easy as people think to make FT a power weapon. The balancing considerations are completely different between them.
I mean, you want to just argue pedantic here … OK, bomb is spammable, it’s AOE and it’s mostly direct damage, but that wasn’t the context of my original post in the first place so … ?
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It’s irrelevant what you picked Rev for … Anet doesn’t design the class according to what players want. I don’t even understand why that expectation exists; no MMO works that way and nothing I see in GW2 makes me think it’s any different, including this. Any argument based on why a player does something or what they want related to game balance are dead ends, always.
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Why would I want to play a Revenant healer? Might as well go play druid to heal effectively and reliably
WHy? I think Anet buffing it starts to give people a pretty compelling argument to do exactly that. If you’re rebuttal is just “play druid because the best”, then you really don’t care about what class you want to play or how you want to play it in the first place; that’s meta pushing.
People need to really set their expectations properly … Anet does not balance classes according to what makes a class best at something so if you’re expectation is that somehow, balancing is going to push whatever class into a ‘unique and desirable role’, it’s just unreasonable. It’s not about maintaining meta or anything like that. Just look at how hard the Mesmers are complaining about losing the uniqueness of alacrity … like that even affects their desire to play one in the first place.
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You aren’t going to find spammable AOE direct damage builds in MMO’s for a reason.
Have you not equipped the Bomb Kit?
Yes and? You’re comparing bomb to FT gameplay? I think that’s a hard sell don’t you? Maybe if the bombs actually targeted players, you would be on to something, but that’s not how they work.
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The raiding community is more than willing to help Casuals get into raids, but they have to put in the effort and time to learn in order to become a better gamer.
Yes, that’s the core of the problem. You’re willing to help casuals, but only if that means they will stop being casuals.
You ask casuals to stay away from you, but in the end it’s you that should be kept away from them. Which, in the end, is not what this game should be all about. What you’re talking about is creating a split in the community. Any such split can only poison the game.
In the end, what really needs to happen is the exact opposite. We need to seek ways to make raiders and casuals to be able to coexist together without one side trying to force the other one to change.
Big thumbs up to that. This is no different than dungeons. It’s called respect and all people need to have it, not just the people belonging to a segregated group for those doing the segregation.
I don’t think that’s a relevant way to think about it … some classes don’t even get to make meaningful choices like that. Engineers are very fortunate that they have such a good number of useful traits. That’s a desired problem to have.
So, I’m not an engineer main. I barely play mine, if I’m honest. However, while looking at the traits and working on building a hybrid power/condition flamethrower build, I noticed that Juggernaut and Incendiary Powder are mutually exclusive traits. This seems like an odd thing to just leave lying around with this flamethrower semi-rework. Whaddya think? Would moving one of these traits to another slot make sense/help?
I think that makes tons of sense as is … Do you know how broken FT would be if it had access to both those traits simultaneously, especially with all the burning added to the weapon skills? It would be ridiculous.
You must have verry little imagination if you believe that it is hard and/or not possible to come up with a viable non abusable flamethrower kit for all kinds of builds (power/hybrid/condi).
Tou aren’t going to find spammable AOE direct damage builds in MMO’s for a reason. This has nothing to do with imagination; it’s simply related to scaling and that’s something that is near impossible to balance for without non-easy solutions. So no, it’s not so easy as you think it is.
It would not have been easy at all to make FT viable for power builds … any experienced veteran of MMO’s knows how fast spammable AOE direct damage builds get nerfed. FT was never going to favour power builds for this very reason.
Actually, these FT changes were the best things we could get because as a power only weapon, it was not good (because of the AOE capability) and as a condition only weapon, it was crap because it just didn’t bring enough conditions. FT is a hybrid weapon and seems to me these changes acknowledge that. The build I’ve been using for a long time just got more powerful … ALOT more.
Just out of curiousity, what is the best PVE condi build for Mesmer, regardless of how poorly it performs?
… we have content where healers are considered necessary, but would anyone say we have holy trinity?
Uhhh have you ever done a raid?
I’ve done a raid and I’ve covered that example … as I’ve explained previously, that doesn’t make this game a holy trinity traditional MMO and Anet is still pushing the boundaries of traditional MMO ideas … including this leather farm and many other examples. I’m going to ask at this point … if you want to respond to me, reading and understanding the full extent of my posts will be required.
One thing I can assure you; leather will never rain down on you so heavily in this zone that it will make the TP irrelevant for leather trading, which in turn means that the best way to get maximum leather for your effort will always be to farm gold. The day that happens is the day Anet gave up on this game.
You realize that what you’re saying makes no economic sense right? If leather DID rain down so heavily in the zone, it would reduce TP prices to where other materials are and the TP would stay just as relevant as always. There is nothing that can happen in the game, up down left or right that would make the TP irrelevant.
No, it makes lot of economic sense … it’s going to be very hard for Anet to tune the drop rate in a farm to ensure that all leathers maintain their value as mats that are a tradeable commodity on the TP … but that’s not actually the most important issue … the most important being the link between gems and gold. Clearly, I’m too ignorant of ecomnomics to explain why you will never be able to farm mats more effectively than earning gold in this game, so I won’t bother
I will conclude that the whole price adjustment argument is moot anyways, since we already know price adjustment wasn’t Anet’s goal for this content. As long as you’re going to hammer on irrelevant points, you don’t have much of an argument here.
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Relative to the main and sub story lines, there is no important lore in raids. The lore in raids is extra; following the plot of elder dragons and fractal exploitation does not require one to raid.
Saul was one of the most important Lore figures in Tyrian history, and Everything in Wing 1 through 3 is a prequel to LWS3.
Yes, prequel. But concerning story advancement, only sequels matter.
Splitting hairs/being a little pedantic here.
Interesting story is interesting story.
And experiencing how something begins or getting a feel for greater meaning behind the storyplot most definitely does advance the story, btw.
That’s fair but where does that end? How much of the history is Anet obliged to make available to players to get a greater meaning to the story? I don’t think the complaint is well expressed … if you don’t do the raid, you don’t ‘miss’ lore required to follow the story. I don’t believe that the lore here is important if you don’t need to know it as it directly pertains to the player.
I’m not failing that at all. I’m not even sure how you can justify such a statement. I don’t doubt that people value their time, but they also value other things beyond that or maybe even more than that. That’s where you fail to understand.
That’s not really my point anyways. People always say the point about PVE is about getting gold or killing bosses or doing this content or that …. that all misses the mark so badly. The point of PVE is to do things that are of value to you and if someone doesn’t value their time (not a completely unreasonable thing given that we are spending it playing games …), justifying meta to that kind of person is quite a laughable endeavor.
Basically, having someone tell us what PVE is about to justify the meta and it’s importance to the game, not just players, is a huge joke. If meta was so important that people make it out to be and Anet agreed, this game would be alot different than it is.
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… but the reality is that Anet determines what content is suitable for the game …
The real reality is that ANet has a long, long history of second-guessing itself. What things are today are not guaranteed to be the same things tomorrow. What tune are you going to sing if ANet changes this leather fiasco to be more in line with expectations?
I think that’s fair because it’s evident that Anet is pushing the boundaries of what it’s offering compared to what we see as tradition … and if something doesn’t work, so be it, they fix it. But from what I have seen so far, if they do make an adjustment, it’s still pushing those traditional ideas … we have content where healers are considered necessary, but would anyone say we have holy trinity? THat’s not the only example … There is lots of these infringements upon the traditional MMO ideas in the game … and you can now add this leather farm to that list as well.
One thing I can assure you; leather will never rain down on you so heavily in this zone that it will make the TP irrelevant for leather trading, which in turn means that the best way to get maximum leather for your effort will always be to farm gold. The day that happens is the day Anet gave up on this game.
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I won’t defend fractals as a leather farm … it’s not the intent of fractals. I’ve already told people why their ideas of what a leather farm is don’t coincide with what we get as a leather farm in GW2. You can ignore them if you want, but the reality is that Anet determines what content is suitable for the game … the traditional idea that you go to an area to get maximum output for a specific material doesn’t apply here. If that’s something that players have a hang up with, they will just need to get over it, just like we got over alot of the other tired ideas that Anet threw out when they conceived the game, like no trinity, etc… Again, there can be no farm that will give you the most of anything in this game because of how the TP works … so the argument that this can’t be a good leather farm because it doesn’t give the most leather compared to others is nonsense. Nothing will beat getting gold and buy leather off the TP, ever.
Anyone looking to Anet to provide them with a ‘traditional’ anything hasn’t been paying attention over the last 5 years. Not following those ideas that everyone else uses is what makes this game appealing to many people. I hope Anet continues to disappoint people that want traditional things based on their preconceived notions of what other MMO’s do, because it’s one of main reasons this game is interesting. If I wanted to farm mats in a place ad infinitum for hours … there are dozens of other games I could go do that much better than GW2 would … and there is a reason I stopped playing those games. That’s the last bit of refuse this game needs.
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No it doesn’t mean that. I’ve explained why. It means that to you, because you have preconceived notions from other MMO’s. GW2 obviously don’t follow that trend and has never do what other MMO’s do.
Yup, but that’s not really the point. I mean, if you kitten things based on what’s necessary, 99% of this game isn’t necessary. Fun has lots to do if content is good or bad in this game. I can’t believe you would actually say such a thing. Maybe an MMO is a job to you, but if I need leather and can have fun teaming with my guild doing it in this zone, that makes a big impact on me as a player … if that’s the kind of player I am. I know it seems easy for you to ignore this because obviously, that’s not the kind of player you are, but it’s real.
I mean, if you just want to maximize your leather input, regardless of how it’s done, this zone isn’t for you and I’ve already covered why no farm in this game would accomplish that because of the fundamental game design and how it relates to how the TP functions; I won’t repeat it if you choose to ignore that. If you can’t recognize that this zone brings value to some of the players in this game, then I have to question your objectivity when looking at the game design and content assessment in the first place.
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I’s rather they fix the garbage weapons we have before they go adding more weapons into the mix.
Look at necromancers, they gave them a greatsword and it is trash.
You CLEARLY have no clue how Reapers work do you? GS is Necro’s current BEST weapon. You’d know that if you actually played the class fully.
lol. best weapon. Meta necro is condi necro. Meta necro in pvp also does not use greatsword.
Greatsword is only their best power weapon in PvE. Which means nothing because power necro in organized PvE is still trash.
You seem to think I care about ‘meta’, which is trash in and of itself. Ruins the entire point of the RPG part of MMORPG. Everyone’s the same build, no one’s unique just copy-pasting from others because too many people can’t build/think for themselves. Power Necro is still better than Power Rev, coming from my playtime with the Rev atm which is proving Rev needs a buff/fix way more than Necro.
Also: PvP and WvW mean nothing to me. Not getting into that topic again, but again another ‘mode’ I utterly despise. So, again: GS is currently Necro’s best weapon. Condi Necros rely on (obviously) Condis, they do damage over time which isn’t hard to deal with (even on my Rev). Remove Condis or get up in a Necro’s face and they’re screwed. Power Reapers can at least hold their own better in a fight. And no, not once did I say one was better than the other (before people skin their kitten).
Fun fact: ‘Meta’ is never absolute, it changes thanks to those of us who experiment and find ways to do better than before. If everyone was a Meta-follower, the Meta wouldn’t change cuz no one would WANT to change it. GS, when Traited right, is the best weapon currently for Necros. Come at me with a staff, I’ll pull you into Nightfall. Get up in my face, Chilling Nova and Sigil of Fire will destroy your kitten before GS 3 is finished going off. Gravedigger is the only real pointless skill to GS thanks to its windup (easy to be forced out of it mid-swing, forcing it on CD). Below 50% HP obviously it’s the one you want to spam but at the same time spamming it isn’t optimal (before people start whining about the DPS spike).
Well if you dont care about meta why would you even care if GS is the best weapon or not?
I mean by definition of meta (Most Effective Tactic Available), GS is the best weapon if and only if it is meta.
Same reason why others would state it’s trash: opinion. A weapon can do the highest numbers possible, but if it doesn’t suit a player’s playstyle it typically won’t be picked up (at least in my case that is). Weapons in this game tend to perform differently depending on personal preference, if you enjoy the GS you’ll typically get the most out of it while if you despise it you won’t bother fine-tuning it. Like I said, Meta isn’t everything and if anything it hurts the game. Sure you know the ‘most effective tactic’ but for players who just want to have fun, we end up being shunned and ‘banned’ from the higher end content simply because we don’t live up to the public’s standards. Meanwhile, even though I may not be using a Meta build I wind up outlasting everyone on my team (<- example btw). Meta just causes self-proclaimed Elitists to look down on everyone else, hence why I hate it and despise its very existence.
But meta isnt about opinion its about verifiable facts. In pve that is about killing bosses, so obviously meta will be what kills said boss the fastest.
Here is the problem with that kind of thinking … what is the difference in success if you can kill the boss the fastest or not? Obviously we have raids with timers, but even there, the fastest doesn’t result in a different kind of success; rewards are not different if you kill within minutes or seconds of a rage timer.
So basically, sure, meta is about killing the fastest, but who says the fastest is equivalent to the most successful? Meta is so irrelevant to 99% of this game. Using as a measure of a professions ‘good’ builds is such a fallacy.
That’s one perspective, here is another.
People from my guild were having a good time teaming with each other and farming leather. They see the game as something else beyond maximizing their gold intake or rushing to get something done. Not necessary? No, but lots of things in this game aren’t necessary … and people still do them and have fun doing it. It’s clear to me who this leather farm benefits.
Sure … which shows you weren’t providing correct information when you say T5 is the only leather you get from the farming area. If we could all keep to being truthful, people could make informed decisions. People can come to their own conclusions if they want to spend time there or not without being mislead by false statements.
I’m getting tired of trying to play guild wars when the games i come to is the most randoms ive experienced in every game ive ever tried and it makes me sad that we dont know when season 6 is gonna come or what competetive format there is gonna be if there will be anything.
it also makes me sad seing so many great players leave the game cause arenanet cant talk with their pvp community for kitten. the game is dying now since season ended. pvp is totally dead. i will not play the game soon if they dont start doing something about their dying game and so will more players. i wanna have dates for when balance patch is coming out, i want to know when next season starts and i want to know wich format and when we can expect next competetive format to come out.
Just the thing that arenanet didnt even bother to help helseth and sindrener to promote the tournament of groucharoo also gives me low hope about this company actually cares about their game or if they allready have givin up on it.
They really need to start telling what there plans are.MMo’s die since the day they are born, just like people. It’s just a question of how long you got. Don’t be so sensational. Anet listens to players alot more than you think they do.
I hope they listen and thats why i’m doing this post for arenanet to open their eyes and do something about players getting rly tired of this antitalking to the community.
You don’t get it .. you don’t need the “hey look here” posts to get Anet’s attention to open their eyes and do something. They already respond to players by doing their job making changes to the game. They don’t get paid to sit here and wax PVP with us on the forums and I don’t see how openly chatting on the forum has anything to do with the game dying either. If there is something they want to tell us, they do so, evident by all the threads with the red tag on the left, which are not in short supply mind you.
To be frank with you … this is the kind of threads that make them stop coming here. There isn’t any substance to it and it’s sensational. So my recommendation; if you want Anet to talk to us, try talking to them in a reasonable and civilized manner to begin with.
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Does the lore in the raid advance the story? i.e., would there be a potential gap in my understanding of the story if I didn’t do the raid?
Again, those are subjective assessments. For some people it is indeed challenging. The fact is that you can go there for a focused session of getting leather … Frankly, I think your definition of farm is pretty narrow. I’ve played plenty of MMO’s where the farms were not THE best place to earn the materials because of player limits, etc… They were still farms though. Besides, who decides what a farm is in GW2? It’s not you, it’s Anet. If that’s not suitable to you, don’t do it … go elsewhere if you think it’s not a proper ‘farm’. It’s really quite irrelevant what you want to call it. Anet made no expectation to any player it would be the BEST place to earn leather. That would in fact, be a stupid approach for them, as I’ve already explained why in previous posts.
By using your definition, the best way to ‘gain’ anything in this game is to whip out the CC and purchase gems, so by the very nature of the game, no farm can exist. I think your definition needs an update so it’s not based on tired ideas of how MMO’s should work; it’s not applicable to the GW2 business model.
So you’re saying Anet spent maybe a hundred or more man hours to create an area that doesn’t solve any problems and will be empty within a few weeks of release?
They don’t solve any of your problems perhaps. Don’t assume what you think is truth for everyone.
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I’m getting tired of trying to play guild wars when the games i come to is the most randoms ive experienced in every game ive ever tried and it makes me sad that we dont know when season 6 is gonna come or what competetive format there is gonna be if there will be anything.
it also makes me sad seing so many great players leave the game cause arenanet cant talk with their pvp community for kitten. the game is dying now since season ended. pvp is totally dead. i will not play the game soon if they dont start doing something about their dying game and so will more players. i wanna have dates for when balance patch is coming out, i want to know when next season starts and i want to know wich format and when we can expect next competetive format to come out.
Just the thing that arenanet didnt even bother to help helseth and sindrener to promote the tournament of groucharoo also gives me low hope about this company actually cares about their game or if they allready have givin up on it.
They really need to start telling what there plans are.
MMo’s die since the day they are born, just like people. It’s just a question of how long you got. Don’t be so sensational. Anet listens to players alot more than you think they do.
Again, those are subjective assessments. For some people it is indeed challenging. The fact is that you can go there for a focused session of getting leather … Frankly, I think your definition of farm is pretty narrow. I’ve played plenty of MMO’s where the farms were not THE best place to earn the materials because of player limits, etc… They were still farms though. Besides, who decides what a farm is in GW2? It’s not you, it’s Anet. If that’s not suitable to you, don’t do it … go elsewhere if you think it’s not a proper ‘farm’. It’s really quite irrelevant what you want to call it. Anet made no expectation to any player it would be the BEST place to earn leather. That would in fact, be a stupid approach for them, as I’ve already explained why in previous posts.
By using your definition, the best way to ‘gain’ anything in this game is to whip out the CC and purchase gems, so by the very nature of the game, no farm can exist. I think your definition needs an update so it’s not based on tired ideas of how MMO’s should work; it’s not applicable to the GW2 business model.
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My point is that isn’t a universal truth for every player, so it’s rather worthless as a point to discuss if we are attempting to have an objective discussion. If you enjoy that farm, then you get much more than mats from doing that content. If you don’t enjoy it, nothing says you have to do it. As people already pointed out .. it’s not the only source of leather. It’s simply an additional option for people who want something different. You guys are reading way too much into what you think it should be and not enough into what Anet intended it to be.
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I’m not sure what value that adds to the discussion … Anet can’t adjust content to ensure every player’s personal preference is taken into account so everyone will like everything they do. Liking farming doesn’t automatically mean you will like one specific instance just because it’s for farming.
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The whole idea that there isn’t build diversity because there is one meta that a class has had for a long time is just such bad logic. Even if Anet made changes that changed what was meta … you STILL wouldn’t have build diversity of the kind you’re talking about.
Anet doesn’t consider price as a problem. The inhability to farm it was the problem for Anet.
Which hasn’t been solved. You can farm only t5 from this area, and t5 was the only tier that always was okay.
You know … it’s pretty important to be accurate in these discussions.
This might be of some interest to people in this thread. Salvage rates from 4,000 drops from the new map. 1,000 each of Bloodstone-Warped Hides (the drops from the centaurs) and Unstable Hides (which drop from the random white mantle mobs in the map) with both the copper fed and silver fed salvage o matic.
TL;DR – The unstable hides give significantly more T2, 3, 4, 6 leather than the Bloodstone Warped Hides does. I don’t know if this is intentional or not, but if you want leather in other tiers than T5, then the centaur camp is not your friend. Instead just randomly killing white mantle mobs on the map is good-ish at that instead.
T5 is NOT the only tier that drops in that farming area.
The leather farm is such a failure that leather prices are already back to pre-patch levels.
How do you define fail?
I thought that was clear enough. The main problem people were complaining about was the extremely high price for hardened leather. Which, after a short dip, is back to climbing up again, from what I can see. Whether or not this actually means that the farm is a failure, as TorsoReaper says, is open for discussion, though. Maybe there aren’t really enough people who care about this (or making some gold) and hence farm the place, to make a dent in the price?
I don’t think it’s that clear … people can complain about something, but it might not be the motive Anet has to fix something. In this case, leather farm is implemented as a specific place were people can farm leather to get leather, not gold … I’m going to bet that few people farming leather in this zone are going to sell it to affect prices that much, because there are far better places to spend time to earn gold to buy leather off the TP if that is the route they want to take. This was added to give players options, not ease pricing.
I’m also willing to be there is a cloth zone on the drawing board in case it’s needed for the same reason they implemented this leather one.
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That’s nice … doesn’t change what I said … Some might blend, but I’m sure most don’t or lean heavily to one option or the other even if they do blend. Therefore, I think what I’m saying does hold true and I’m certain Anet isn’t lying to us about why they introduced leather farm.
You prove my point … you want to use the TP … so you don’t farm. if I want to farm, I’m not buying off the TP. I mean, this is really simple. What is worth more? You’re time or your gold? Very few people think those things have equal value, so I don’t think it’s too far off the mark to think that all the people using the leather farm at the moment are also NOT using the TP to get leather.
Sure there is SOME people blending, but I think you put too much weight on the percentage of people doing that. I stated why I believe this blending isn’t a thing … and you’re own statements are indicative of that belief.
^^ Yet for 5 years now … it’s clearly not mattered that Necro doesn’t have sufficient group utility … or perhaps that way of thinking is not correct to begin with. I think it’s all easy to jump to conclusions, thinking we see the answers. It’s not so clear if you don’t understand the intent in the first place.
I won’t argue if there is or isn’t other elements to make up for the damage of the class. What I do find disturbing is the simple and narrow approach that people limit themselves to when having these discussions; it simply never occurs to most people that it’s possible that there isn’t anything here diverging from Anet’s plan for the class. All the arguments always assume something is wrong or broken, based on faulty or irrelevant ideas and comparisons … such a bad start to any discussion with a development team.
Ignoring the fact that, up until HoT release, Necros were often kicked from dungeon groups because of their lack of party support and damage.
The only time we’ve been meta, in some form of high end pve, was before the Jagged Horror nerf and “condi necros only” was a thing in t4 fractals. And that was purely because of 1 cheesy skill.Yes, so I guess being Devil’s Advocate here … how does that matter to Anet? Do you honestly think they use meta as a way to kitten the class, given the state that so many other classes find themselves in the game? I truly do not, why would they adopt a player-imposed evaluation when it considers so little of what defines the value of a class? Really, whatever it is, I’m sure Anet has their own way and are using it.
What should anet balance around, if not the meta?
This might seem very abstract, but I don’t believe Anet balances around quantitative elements, like DPS for instance. I think it’s more heuristic, like “How does this class deal with situation X?”. It’s easy to see that as long as they generally fall in a range for CD’s, weapon coefficients, etc… on skills and traits, that this is sufficient to maintain an acceptable range of values between classes without actually using them as comparisons. I mean, how else could they possibly balance such a complex interaction of all the classes, skills, weapons, etc… that exists? The idea that they have some numerical algorithm for specific things seems absurd in the face of this complexity, and the fact they haven’t achieved it ingame indicates that as well. I can only assume if they DID use some numerical measure of all this .. then it shouldn’t be as hard as what is indicated by the current state of the game to achieve balance based on these numerical measures.
I think it’s clear that if they ARE using numerical measures, DPS isn’t one of them … otherwise we wouldn’t have such great disparities. It’s either much more complicated or much less quantitative than what people think these balance assessments are.
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Why would anyone farming leather have buy orders on the TP? As you said and others … it’s not ‘worth the time’ to farm the leather, compared to just getting gold elsewhere and buying it off the TP. I mean, I can’t argue with that, so it makes sense to me that most farmers aren’t posting buy orders and most people on the TP aren’t farming.
^^ Totally agree. In terms of a theme, what do we not have? Most of the things that engineers have cover most of the different game styles I can think of already. It’s not a question of good/bad. Elite specs aren’t here to replace not-great functioning tools or fill poorly-done but existing gaps in game play styles.
I’m not debating if it’s true or not … Anet told us with their own words why they introduced leather farm and it was related to the lack of options to obtain it. The cost is not the problem that Anet is addressing with the leather farming instance. The cost is just a function of supply and demand and there was never any claim that the leather farm would address it. If anything, I think prices will go up, but I’m not going to elaborate on why I think that.
If leather drops for the people that do the leather farm, it’s doing what it was intended to do. That’s not a failure. It’s not price related at all, because we already know that there are significantly more effective ways to earn more gold and purchase the leather you want than any reasonable farm could provide in the same time for the base mats themselves.
I mean, if your definition of successful farm is if it’s ‘worth the time’, then that would completely destroy all leather as a commodity worth trading, because ‘worth the time’ indicates to me, that it should yield as much leather from the farm as you could get earning gold and buying it in the same time.That’s the worst possible situation Anet could create. Leather would cease to be worth trading as a commodity.
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New Player, Sad Player. Expansion ruined it.
in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns
Posted by: Obtena.7952
^^ No, I can’t accept that … because if a player refused to change their spec/build, they STILL had other options to proceed and complete HoT content … by teaming. People get carried ALL the time. Some people I know ONLY team. People must stop ignoring player co-operation as a strategy to complete content, especially in an MMO.
Yes, you do need to repeat it every time because you don’t define what you mean by ‘better’. Just saying it’s better doesn’t give me anything to discuss. It could mean many things. To someone playing the game that wants to farm leather, a dedicated area might be what makes that area better than what you suggest. Who am I to debate what makes something better for an individual? If you think farming elsewhere is ‘better’ for you, fill your boots; that’s simply an subjective measure.
We can quantify because we have auction house pricing. If prices go back to their pre-patch levels or higher, we can definitively say that people are not better off.
Problem: Leather is too expensive
Solution: Leather farm
Outcome: Higher or equal prices = failure, Lower prices = success
Again, people that are going to do a leather farm are not thinking in terms of how much equivalent gold they make doing it. Their problem isn’t actually related to the price of leather .. it’s related to not having options other than the TP to get it. So qualify all you want, it’s not relevant to the kind of player who will take advantage of the leather farm in the first place. If you paid attention, according to Anet, the leather farm wasn’t intended to solve the “leather is too expensive” problem in the first place, so no, it’s not a failed farm because it doesn’t make leather cheaper.
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^^ Yet for 5 years now … it’s clearly not mattered that Necro doesn’t have sufficient group utility … or perhaps that way of thinking is not correct to begin with. I think it’s all easy to jump to conclusions, thinking we see the answers. It’s not so clear if you don’t understand the intent in the first place.
I won’t argue if there is or isn’t other elements to make up for the damage of the class. What I do find disturbing is the simple and narrow approach that people limit themselves to when having these discussions; it simply never occurs to most people that it’s possible that there isn’t anything here diverging from Anet’s plan for the class. All the arguments always assume something is wrong or broken, based on faulty or irrelevant ideas and comparisons … such a bad start to any discussion with a development team.
Ignoring the fact that, up until HoT release, Necros were often kicked from dungeon groups because of their lack of party support and damage.
The only time we’ve been meta, in some form of high end pve, was before the Jagged Horror nerf and “condi necros only” was a thing in t4 fractals. And that was purely because of 1 cheesy skill.
Yes, so I guess being Devil’s Advocate here … how does that matter to Anet? Do you honestly think they use meta as a way to kitten the class, given the state that so many other classes find themselves in the game? I truly do not, why would they adopt a player-imposed evaluation when it considers so little of what defines the value of a class? Really, whatever it is, I’m sure Anet has their own way and are using it.
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Again, you’re not really answering his question … even if the content was your preferred kind of grind, it would be unlikely that an MMO would generate content so quickly that it would keep you hooked. The hook isn’t that you get mats, the hook is that it’s fun to play. Even you can’t convince anyone that getting your 100th of a specific mat drop is what engages you as a player. We’ve all been there and done that … it’s no different than getting gold at some point.