I mean it just feels kittenty when you get downed as a Guard, even if it was a stupid mistake and you deserve the down, since you know right from the start that the downed state is just an extended death.
I mean a thief does like 4 times the damage with his 1 spell to finish something off and a ranger’s 3 spell gives you a guaranteed second life.
It may be not that crucial but it adds up to other points.
yeah OK it feels bad to be down but that doesn’t make Guardian a bad OW class. I’ve already address the other points you made; it’s a very simple and low impact adjustment to get the runspeed and HP to get a superior OW build to most other classes.
I think what is really missing in this discussion is how hard it is to adjust a build in the case where you do encounter some harder content where the optimized OW build may not cut it. Of course, very few people will carry a second set of armor for those instances but even in those cases, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to adjust your traits for more survival on a Guardian when you might need it. I will admit that I haven’t approached those situations solo, so I can’t comment on how effective JUST trait changes would be in those situations.
Regardless, I still stand by my belief that Guardian is one of the better OW classes that exists. I would even say its in the top three.
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I don’t see the relevance of the downed state effectiveness in OW content. Do the majority of encounters in OW you have, that would be trash mobs, down you so often that the effectiveness of the downed state skills is that big a concern to you? I can’t say that’s the experience I have had, or heard my other guild mates have in OW …
YOu are again referring to encounters not typical of the OW experience, so how is that relevant to kitten a class as good or bad for OW capability?
Okay y’all need to calm down. My complaint isn’t that the spec looks bad, or that old tomes were good. It’s that we had these skills, then they were removed and replaced with some basic other abilities prior to the launch of a next skill/spec system. They then took those skills and fixed them, and incorporated them into a new spec. Which they are selling back to us. What if they decided to remove spirit weapons, turn them into minions like necromancer get, and sell them back to us for $30-$60 in the next expansion? That’s the kind of thing I’m upset about. Not the way the actual skills preform other than they were crap before and are presumably good now.
I think the difference here is that, from what I can tell, the only similarity is the name. I really have to push my memory hard but tomes were just a few elite skills correct? I’m not sure what Anet is implementing in this expansion is the same thing. Besides, what I do know is that the old tomes were just stand alone skills. These tomes are part of an elite class package, so they will have trait support and have the same restrictions that other skills associated with elite specs would have, unlike a stand alone elite skill.
I see the faux pas in reusing the name but as it goes, if it wasn’t called tomes, I feel you probably wouldn’t have a real issue with them.
I don’t get the idea that Anet should implement upgrades to the game for a minority of players with advanced rigs .. unless of course there was a tiered system of fees to access those upgrades if you wanted them. I don’t think that’s an unfair compromise.
How much would you pay to get the access to the exceptional features you want?
A little off topic … Glint in condition damage is a thing to begin with?. I suspect this elite spec, if it supplies a condi shortbow … will suspect it supports a condi and/or shortbow build in the first place. At least much better than Glint ever did.
Glint has a burn, a good heal and might + fury are never bad. But even then it’s not the best choice in a condi build.
So no, Renegade will not miss Glint.Glint provides through Elemental Blast fire damage and chill (which also provides torment when properly traited). I did spent most of my time in the current PvP season playing a condition build with Glint + Mallyx and the Deadshot amulet (albeit most of the time was in gold 3 and wasn’t able to reach plat). I do think that Glint is better than Shiro for condi builds (way better cleave damage and cc) but anyway the new legend should be way better with conditions and I do expect Mallyx + whatever to be a decent combo… Or at least was what I hoped until I saw the pets. The only pet build that works in the game is Mesmer and only because has stealth…
Oh you’re talking about pvp, no wonder. I was baffled when the other person said that about condi builds and glint. Was like “wtf condi revs don’t use Glint.” And they don’t, in pve at least. But pvp is another matter entirely. Not really familiar with what builds are best there. But for pve purposes, Renegade will probably be the elite spec to go with I imagine.
I think what’s good is that if you want to play condi, you have choices of traits, for PVE or PVP; a fairly unique thing in this game. Yes, I was referring to PVE when I questioned the idea that a condi Rev would use Glint. I can’t see the benefit of Glint over Mallyx in that situation.
I mean, let’s say you are solo fighting a beefy overworld mob that is designed to be done as a group. You open with F3, once that times out you facetank a bit (if you don’t get onehit because of your low health) and then heal, facetank even less, f2, then you renewed focus and f3 again, facetank a bit, F2, facetank a bit, heal, now you die and the mob is probably not dead already because you can’t give yourself much offensive buffs.
Yeah, you could also use retreat but the one block really doesn’t do much with all these multihitter abilities. Blinds don’t work against big mobs. Did I mention that solo breaking bars is also not that easy when you don’t use the elite trap?
Now warrior: stand still, when low kite away till the signet made you like 3/4 health, rinse and repeat the mindlessness. You are probably also faster because of better solo might application. And you can kite easily with the mobility. And you don’t have to wait for cds between pulls.
OK that scenario could happen in the game, no debate here but …
… that’s not a demonstration that Guardian is a terrible OW class … or that warrior is a good one. I mean, you’re going to talk about a scenario of solo fighting an intended group mob to justify your statements on the OW capability (or lack of) for a class? That makes no sense.
Maybe, but for people to sensationalize everything that DH is being terrible, for whatever reason, is nonsensical. I mean, I don’t even get what doing that accomplishes … like somehow Anet reads this thread and the light goes on that for the last 2 years, they and a fraction of players are completely wrong and DH is a pile of suck?
Even if they did, why would I have confidence that Anet wouldn’t do it again on FireB? If Dh is indeed as crap as the OP wants us all to believe, then my expectation isn’t that Anet will do better … my expectation is that Anet will deliver more of the same in FireB as they did on DH. I see little point in hammering obvious points for no reason.
… or we can all see that this thread is just a big pile of vitriol and the OP thinks that somehow, THIS is the thread that will make some big changes to the class for a expansion being released in what … a few months? GL with that strategy; it worked great for the DH name debate. ><
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Just to be clear … does anyone have SPECIFIC information about how they will change reaper for condi builds? I can’t find it.
There were some pretty vague leaks saying that Deathly Chill will be remade into doing power damage. Not sure how much stock to put in it though. Admittedly, the same source said that Scourge was going to be Condi/Support, so there’s that. Makes sense if they are going for making Reaper the Power option and Scourge the Condi option.
But as it is I’m simply expecting nonsensical and unwarranted nerfs. I reckon I’ll still be playing Necro regardless.
So just rumors. Good.
And I wouldn’t worry about nonsensical and unwarranted nerfs, at least not to Reaper when PoF comes out. It’s not a balance patch. Just like the last expansion, the focus was on the elites. Changes to the overall class balance was much later.
You know, people cried about how bad DH was going to be and it turned out just fine.
Also, Guardian can spew at 28k DPS with burn build in raids and 30k similar with GS / Scepter + Torch power.
Guardian is just fine right now and it’ll be even better when Firebrand releases.
Yeah exactly … I think the cries of “bad damage” are highly exaggerated by people that should be playing FOTM if all they want is the ‘best’ of everything. DH was not the disaster that people make it out to be.
Guardian is not that great in open world and never has (except for mindless zerging with lootstick).
The reasons are the slow movement Guard has + the low health. Guard has as much health as an Ele. Sure, there are blocks, but miss one block and you can be dead already. A Warrior can just facetank with the highest health pool + healing signet and does not have to be preactive like a Guard with his blocks. That said blocks also have long cooldowns while War’s health and heal signet is perma passive. Assuming ofc that everyone is full berserk.
Sure, you could go marauder or even celestial but who the kitten makes armor for open world these days?
I can’t understand this … OW is for the most part, fighting trash mobs … even in HoT. Getting runspeed and a little more health (which you don’t even need IMO) are simply small adjustments to your build with hardly even a noticeable impact to your damage output.
I would go a step further; aside from the compromise on runspeed that is easily obtained with Travellers, Gaurdian is one of the best OW classes you can play. They open fights with blocks and blinds consistently, avoiding damage. They stack damage sources from almost every weapon you choose now that everything has a symbol. They close out fights without many if any lingering conditions. Burst from symbols is fast enough recharge that it’s consistent and reliable. There are no ‘setup’ combinations so you get in, dump your damage and your done, at maximum damage output. All those things are what is needed to be a superior OW class. Very few classes even come close to having that.
Even if you need to get more HP … that’s a trivial and small impact on your damage through trinkets.
While we are on the topic, I would be careful about promoting other classes like warrior and ele, just because of face tanking or high, sustained damage output. Those things are not as relevant to OW content as you may think. There are significant trade offs in those cases to get those capabilities.
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Just to be clear … does anyone have SPECIFIC information about how they will change reaper for condi builds? I can’t find it.
From all the new elites this seemed to be the least interesting. Conditional range will be nice, but if we have to give up Glint there is much that the new line must offer.
A little off topic … Glint in condition damage is a thing to begin with?. I suspect this elite spec, if it supplies a condi shortbow … will suspect it supports a condi and/or shortbow build in the first place. At least much better than Glint ever did.
I will dust off my ancient torment equipment but, honestly, building for torment and bleeding and poison because torch is an off-hand sounds bad.
More pointless speculation, I suppose.
I don’t get that concern … that’s EXACTLY what Scepter gives you. You don’t even need to think. If anything, I think the complaint here is that it’s too obvious that torch supports Scepter so closely and perhaps Dagger or axe less so; I don’t believe that’s the sign of good off hand weapon design. Speculation of course, but it seems that’s the direction.
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I don’t care what it’s a term for … it’s a reality of this game. That reality creates a situation where choosing a class is based on theme; the performance is secondary. If you want performance, you need to play the ‘FOTM’ game and choose the class you want as the game evolves for optimal performance.
It’s interesting you think that they need to fix balancing … how many more years will this game need to exist before you realize Anet doesn’t regard balance the way you do? You are right, metas don’t need to exist, but they do and if you think about why that is, you might get some insight to why I’m correct.
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I don’t think that idea is any worse than gliding … Map and story completion in HoT was tied to lots of things, mounts would be no different. Gliding is unique in it’s approach though … it’s not like I can glide “up”. It’s very restricted in that manner, so it’s not really a replacement for continually limited numbers of waypoints.
Wow. That would put a lot of people in the position of not being able to play the game without a new computer or serious upgrades. I for one am glad they didn’t do what you want. That stuff is for single player games, not MMO’s.
Yes, the OP’s reasoning is rather flawed. I guess he doesn’t mind paying a 4 figure amount for an expansion to deliver what he’s asking for.
The fact is that you can only progress raid on classes that are top dps/heal/tank or at least second tier without major downsides.
That’s right and that’s a strong argument for why raids shouldn’t exist in this game. No class change or elite spec can fix that …. not like that’s what an expansion is designed to do in the first place; if we paid $40 to get access to what essentially amounts to balance corrections, that would be stupid. Those corrections would be meaningless the second the game is changed again, an inevitable event. Chasing meta is not an option, ever, no matter what vehicle it comes in, for that very reason.
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This isn’t new … if your expectation is that a class isn’t good unless it’s the best at something, then you need to play a game where there is exactly one class for each thing to be good at. This isn’t GW2.
The fact is that if your interest is only playing the ‘best’, whatever you define that to be, then you aren’t playing right if you only use one class.
I’m certain that even not having seen the spec, your hope for a TOP DPS build was not going to happen, for exactly the reason I already stated and for the reasons we have seen Anet state many times in the past over and over. If the intention was for Guardian to consistently play a top dps role in the game, it would have happened by now. That’s clearly not how Anet develops the classes in this game.
I have made no demands on unique mechanics and cool new features. In fact, I see Anet hitting a wall pretty soon; without a trinity, there isn’t actually much you can do with class roles, which is what elite specs are designed to deliver.
yeah but then we’re reliant on having boons to strip, and we don’t know if it’s based on stacks, ie 5 stacks of torment from sc3 = 5 burn stacks or 1 burn stack for the single application of torment, guess we’ll have to wait for the skills, not sure if what we’ve been given makes us raid viable?
No we aren’t … Scepter 3 applies torment. Last time I checked anyways. And yes, we have other ways to do so.
I think you miss the point; it’s not about if damage sucks or not, it’s about how many DPS builds you can pile onto a class in a game where you only need one or two DPS builds to perform. Conceptually, there is no reason for Anet to simply add more DPS builds to Guardian. Like them or not, they are there and if they aren’t good, adding more isn’t the answer.
Honestly, unless they remove about 50-75% of the waypoints in this game, I can’t take mounts seriously. Why would you EVER need them besides to get pass some cheesy mechanic that will be in the new zones? (Hint: you won’t)
I’m not sure but if you examine the trend in the LS3 maps, that’s exactly what has been happening … Waypoints just don’t get you around as easily as they did in core .. or even in HoT! There has been a steady decline in the ability to get around using waypoints. I guess that’s a way to force interaction with the world or something. To be fair, they have introduced other ways to allow you to get around and if the trend continues, mounts will add to those ways.
so its basically boon strip and barrier, the torment -> burn sounds good but what torment can we put out? lol
Scepter 3 … so if they do a condi torch thing to compliment that weapon, it would be very powerful combination.
My prediction is this … if the virtues fundamentally change into ‘kits’, you might not get a virtue that gives you global condition access. Therefore, Axe will be a condition-based weapon, and give you the choice to pick the virtue you want.
Basically, little changes. We already have access to good damage and condition builds. It’s beyond me why anyone would possibly want more of them. let’s be honest here … we play a game where meta has meaning … there is almost no value in giving a class access to more than 1 or 2 damage builds … so what’s left? From where I sit, we are getting the ’what’s left’.
I think some of you are missing the core concept at the heart of the OP. they are disappointed with the fact that there are no major changes for other parts of the game coming with the xpac. this has nothing to do with them wanting an xpac based on those areas, or even the way in which anet releases content for those areas.
content updates for said areas of the game would make the xpac more alluring for other players I think is what the OP is trying to say. I would agree if this were the case.
I don’t see the difference … historically, Anet made changes to those other parts of the game exclusively OUTSIDE of the first expansion … the reasonable person would expect the same for the next.
Nerfing the dungeon drops and than abandoning that content is not really an “update”.
That might be a point worth discussing if dungeons were the only content in this game that has ever been developed.
I think some of you are missing the core concept at the heart of the OP. they are disappointed with the fact that there are no major changes for other parts of the game coming with the xpac. this has nothing to do with them wanting an xpac based on those areas, or even the way in which anet releases content for those areas.
content updates for said areas of the game would make the xpac more alluring for other players I think is what the OP is trying to say. I would agree if this were the case.
I don’t see the difference … historically, Anet made changes to those other parts of the game exclusively OUTSIDE of the first expansion … the reasonable person would expect the same for the next.
I think the reality is that content updates for the other areas of the game happen much more frequently and continuously outside of the xpac as Anet’s resources permit. I believe that for these secondary aspects of the game, that makes quite a bit of business sense. Anet manages the expectations; players that make their own outside of that are just setting themselves up for disappointment.
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WvW and sPvP get changes as they are finished and they are not saved up for expansions.
That’s just nonsense. With an expansion you should bring new matching activities which goes with the expansion. Same with Raid and Dungeons
I don’t get you … we have 5 years of Anet delivering content through an expansion, continuous upgrades and living story …
So where do you get this strange idea that this coming expansion should have new things across the board for every element of the game … that’s simply not how Anet has ever acted. You’re expectation does not align with Anet’s approach to delivering content, ever.
Please enlighten me which content and upgrades we have given outside expansions?
Feel free to peruse the history of patches if you want this information. It’s freely given and will demonstrate what I’m talking about. What I have said here is not wrong … there is a demonstrated approach and history for how Anet delivers content to players. If you ignore that, then you will be disappointed by your own false expectations. If you aren’t happy with how the quality and quantity of content this game delivers, then complaining that you aren’t seeing that in a way that never demonstrated it in the first place is nonsensical.
The fact is obvious; Anet did not deliver fractals, dungeons, PVP or WvW with the last expansion … so to think it’s unreasonable they didn’t deliver those things in the upcoming expansion is silly to say the least.
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At least this isn’t a complaint thread about the name of the spec … still, I would caution restraint for … you know, playing it before making a hasty judgment.
WvW and sPvP get changes as they are finished and they are not saved up for expansions.
That’s just nonsense. With an expansion you should bring new matching activities which goes with the expansion. Same with Raid and Dungeons
Yeah but for some people up here these “useless things” existed in the vanilla of Guild Wars 2, they don’t matter anymore. But you got a mount, such an innovation!
That’s a pretty unfair and disingenuous statement … Anet has put resources into the game elements you are talking about. Just because changes and developments for those game elements aren’t in an expansion doesn’t mean they don’t matter to Anet anymore.
WvW and sPvP get changes as they are finished and they are not saved up for expansions.
That’s just nonsense. With an expansion you should bring new matching activities which goes with the expansion. Same with Raid and Dungeons
I don’t get you … we have 5 years of Anet delivering content through an expansion, continuous upgrades and living story …
So where do you get this strange idea that this coming expansion should have new things across the board for every element of the game … that’s simply not how Anet has ever acted. You’re expectation does not align with Anet’s approach to delivering content, ever.
Relative to other professions, I found Engi rather easy; I skipped and tra-la-la-ed my way through HoT with this build:
It’s only gotten better since the FT changes. It’s not AFK-worthy like Minion Scepter Necro, but if you pay attention, it’s quite capable.
If this game was WoW or FF, you might have a point … it’s not, It’s GW2. The content you list is not expansion worthy in this game. If you think it is, then go ahead and suggest how an expansion for any of those elements would look … but not in WoW or FF, in GW2.
I mean, if you think a hodge podge of random Fractals or dungeons would be worth an expansion, I would love to point you to the fact that we have been getting FREE expansion-worthy content for years now … so maybe your complaint has little merit in the first place.
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Raid build with sword instead of Scepter and fried dumplings. Like there’s any point in making a dedicated build, let alone craft new gear for open-world. The rest is learning how to dodge.
There is a point, just like in raids … to optimize your play … and if you are dodging in OW, you’re doing it wrong.
So this new expansion is about new maps, mounts and elite specialization.
What about:
Dungeons
WvW
Fractal
PvP
These things are not important Arena? I’ m sorry but after the HOT expansion, you continue going down to the hill.
Gee … just like the last expansion. Why would you think otherwise? No offense but those things you list are simply second rate filler content. Any expansion based on those tidbits of content would be a failure.
I mean, lets throw it back at you .. how would you conceptualize an expansion based on any of those things? It doesn’t make sense. Those elements get ongoing changes; they aren’t ‘expansion’ worthy.
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For the people who have said they like Guardian/DH for open-world, would you mind sharing your builds and playstyles? Returning after an absence, would love to see what you’re using.
I would go to Guild Wars 2 Meta website. Look for the meta PvE build for Fractures and Raids. It is the same for open world PvE, but instead of going full zerker gear, add like 150 vitality, to get you HP between 13-14K.
If you want to solo champions and content generally not meant to be soloed, use PvP symbolyist build from Guild Wars 2 Meta website, with the same gear as above. In my opinion, when there are no dps checks, Gurdian is the third strongest class in open world to solo champions and so forth, after Ranger and Necro.
The builds that exist for raids etc … are generally trash for OW content; they are two completely different beasts. You will not find good builds for OW at that site.
Guardian has all the ingredients for a superb OW class, with the exception of runspeed; it’s the only class without a built in RS buff trait or signet. You need to get that with Traveler runes or the RS sigil. In HoT, if you are willing to compromise a full DPS build with marauders, you should be OK but DH does require you to act more defensively than say … Condi Necro with Scepter and minions, literally an AFK build.
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It’s because we can’t recolor them. They simply don’t fit the armors if they have different colors and as a result nobody’s buying them judging by your backpack discounts spam lately.
And yes, I’m aware that it would need some work to teach your old game engine to recolor backpacks, but the point is, until that work is done, very few people bother to buy them. It’s that simple.
So yeah, the choice is yours a-net, either make them worth buying or enjoy low sales.
Its not a clearance sale because nobody is buying them. That is only neccessary, if your unsold stock takes up too much storage, which isnt the case because they dont take up any.
Discounts do mean alot however, they have no reason to make discounts on hot-selling products. Yet almost all backpacks (excluding wings) get them.
So … if it’s not a hot selling product, it’s a low one? I mean, it could still be a good seller and go on discount; it doesn’t need to be low. I would think if it’s a low seller, it’s not because of the price, it’s because of the style. Like was mentioned, there is no inventory so lowering cost isn’t done to free up warehouse space. in fact, we don’t know the reasons why they discount items; you’re just assuming.
I have to admit, I don’t understand the idea that:
Peripheral content like Adventures should not gate access to alternative means to get BiS stats.
When has an adventure gated access to different ways to get BiS gear? I mean, even if that’s true, you even admit it’s a different way … so there are other ways that you can choose to get the gear, even if one way is gated by an activity you don’t like. So … what’s the issue?
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Do Silverwastes for an hour, get 35g, buy leather.
There are ways to farm gold to buy leather, even Lake Doric gives you 15-20g/h worth of leather if you have a decent comm and know how to evade DR.
The crisis, isn’t even a crisis.
This is a band-aid to a severed limb.
It’s actually not, because that’s how the game was originally conceived in the first place. You earn the gold, you buy the mats from the TP. In fact, that’s STILL the relevant approach; there are very few mats you can actually farm for in this game from the traditional MMO sense of the concept of farming.
If anything, it’s the leather farm that is the band-aid; IT’S the exception to how things are intended to work.
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If there was only one currency reward for all activities, and all rewards were purchased with this one currency, then you could perform whatever activity you wanted and purchase any offered reward as a result of doing what you want.
Yes, like I said, I’m aware it could be done. That’s not the relevant question … You aren’t asking yourself why it’s not being done. Is there Asian MMO’s that allow it? I dunno, but we aren’t talking about Asian MMO’s because that’s not a relevant comparison to GW2.
Besides … you think the game would be significantly improved to allow you to do what you want if you can simply buy whatever reward you want and those games exists? Ok, then why are you playing one that doesn’t do that? Why are you insistent this game should be something it won’t be? Are you under a serious belief that at some point, Anet will just allow you to buy everything with gold and abandon pretty much the whole rewards system they put in place after 5 years? That’s a really interesting point of view. And somehow you think that this would be an overall positive impact on the game, considering the cost? I don’t think you’ve given this much thought. Seems to me that the market has already given it’s general approval of how the game is run and developed. Not sure the effort to change that system warrants what amounts to be a risky experiment.
Even though you got the wall of text going and drawning into pedantic arguments, that still doesn’t change the fact that doing an activity that’s hardcoded to a reward is how MMO’s work. Ignoring that reality is not a compelling argument to change the game to suit individuals unwilling to doing the available activities for the rewards. Even in the case where there are multiple ways to get that same reward, you still have to take one of those paths; the game doesn’t adjust to the player.
I do find it funny that you aren’t recognizing that the addition of every new way to get the same reward has an increasing diminished return and how that ties into the limited resources Anet has to develop the game. I guess that’s working in your favour though. Of course they could add more … at what expense? You seem to want to ignore these practical considerations. I can assure you, they are real barriers to giving you what you think GW2 should be.
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I think you have to be a little more honest than this. The market is a spectrum and if you are on the fringe of that, there is no sensible financial reason to take a limited resource to capture it at the expense of the core market you serve.
…snip
Then they better rethink their whole immersion into MMO’s. Again, show me an MMO does not follow the “do this get that” algorithm … they don’t exist. Ever MMO work ‘on rails’ because the whole thing is hardcoded into the game. Game AI has to get much better than it is to adjust activities and rewards to a players preference or gamestyle.
Show me an MMO other than GW2 that gates endgame rewards behind mini-games that have nothing to do with your character.
I don’t get your association there. Doing a mini game to get ‘something’ that gets you towards a reward is exactly within the “Do that get this” algorithm that I have been talking about that all MMO’s are built upon. So what’s your point? I don’t think I CAN’T show you an MMO that isn’t build on that algorithm … or at least I’ve yet to play or hear of one.
In the most general terms, completing content gets you rewards tied to them; the content does not adjust to the player; MMO’s aren’t smart enough yet. Being specific about a particular activity/reward combination in GW2 and challenging that combination as unique or unfair or whatever doesn’t disprove this fact of MMO games.
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Yes it is actually recurring with me that I prefer choices in how I play to an MMO experience “on rails”.
And I also disagree that an MMO “is all about” things you must do to earn certain rewards. Imagine an MMO that allowed you to gain one type of currency with ANY gameplay you preferred. Say you could earn it by Open World PvE, various instanced PvE, WvW, PvP, crafting, fishing, gathering, trading, etc. Then you could trade this currency that you earned by doing what you like in the game for any reward that you chose.
I have played the majority of AAA western MMOs as well as several asian MMOs and have never seen as many different currencies as in GW2. It’s a bit ridiculous really.
Well, your idea is just wrong then. I have yet to play an MMO that doesn’t have the algorithm “Do this activity Get that thing” which means you MUST do something to get things.
I don’t get what currencies have to do this discussion at all. Even if there was ONE currency, this and every other game would still follow the “Do this activity Get that thing” algorithm.
I don’t get what player willingness has to do this discussion either. Achieving content that no player will dislike is an insurmountable task. They serve a market; if someone isn’t part of that market, then the player needs to make better choices about what games they play, not the company to try to placate that player with content they want.
My currency example is to show a method where you could allow players to play how they want and all have access to the same rewards. It’s really very simple.
Actually, you didn’t show anything. Having one currency does not give you a path to getting what you want by doing what you want to do. I’ve played lots of games where BiS loot can’t be purchased at all. In fact, come to think of it … I can’t recall the last time I could simply purchase BiS loot a common currency in any game.
I mean, I won’t debate with you that a game COULD let a player simply buy anything they wanted with a single currency, but then you have to ask yourself why that isn’t happening in any MMO on the market in the first place if it’s such a good idea. I don’t have an answer to that, but I bet it’s buried somewhere in the whole ‘online game theory’ textbook if one existed. Frankly, I don’t think a game that ties performance to gear would last very long if buying all gear with a single currency existed in it. This was already discussed ad infinitum for Legendaries because people didn’t think it was very ‘legendary’ to drop 2000G to get one on the market … I don’t think that’s a small fraction of players that think that way either.
Regardless, you seemed to ignore the whole point that MMO’s are built on the exact algorithm that you dislike. Perhaps you have a reason for ignoring that?
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They serve a market; if someone isn’t part of that market, then the player needs to make better choices about what games they play, not the company to try to placate that player with content they want.
But we are part of their market, otherwise we wouldn’t be here. We are not people who just started the game and already know how it could be better and suit our playstyle more. There’s a difference between your scenario and feedback from recurring customers. We are customers not in a traditional sense, we are players. We share the same hobby and feel like we belong to a club that we support financially to keep it running. Saying “just go play another game” ignores that and tries to push players out of the community, and it’s certainly not wise for a game company to say that to their players. There are cases where people’s expectations of the game differ so greatly from reality or the company’s vision that opting out is the best solution, but if players who generally love to spend time playing the game have suggestions and complaints, you better listen, and act where it makes sense.
I think you have to be a little more honest than this. The market is a spectrum and if you are on the fringe of that, there is no sensible financial reason to take a limited resource to capture it at the expense of the core market you serve.
Placating people that want choose your own adventure in an MMO are in theory not even part of the MMO market because this currently doesn’t exist. No MMO that I have seen dynamically creates content suited to the player based on their preferences. Demanding such a thing is silly. It can’t be done in a reasonable way by hardcoding an algorithm, which is what we have right now.
Yes it is actually recurring with me that I prefer choices in how I play to an MMO experience “on rails”.
And I also disagree that an MMO “is all about” things you must do to earn certain rewards. Imagine an MMO that allowed you to gain one type of currency with ANY gameplay you preferred. Say you could earn it by Open World PvE, various instanced PvE, WvW, PvP, crafting, fishing, gathering, trading, etc. Then you could trade this currency that you earned by doing what you like in the game for any reward that you chose.
I have played the majority of AAA western MMOs as well as several asian MMOs and have never seen as many different currencies as in GW2. It’s a bit ridiculous really.
Well, your idea is just wrong then. I have yet to play an MMO that doesn’t have the algorithm “Do this activity Get that thing” which means you MUST do something to get things.
I don’t get what currencies have to do this discussion at all. Even if there was ONE currency, this and every other game would still follow the “Do this activity Get that thing” algorithm.
I don’t get what player willingness has to do this discussion either. Achieving content that no player will dislike is an insurmountable task. They serve a market; if someone isn’t part of that market, then the player needs to make better choices about what games they play, not the company to try to placate that player with content they want.
My currency example is to show a method where you could allow players to play how they want and all have access to the same rewards. It’s really very simple.
Except the point of the rewards tied to content is to actually do the content that the rewards are tied to.
And many people object to an “on rails” gaming experience (which is the point of this thread).
Then they better rethink their whole immersion into MMO’s. Again, show me an MMO does not follow the “do this get that” algorithm … they don’t exist. Ever MMO work ‘on rails’ because the whole thing is hardcoded into the game. Game AI has to get much better than it is to adjust activities and rewards to a players preference or gamestyle.
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Yes it is actually recurring with me that I prefer choices in how I play to an MMO experience “on rails”.
And I also disagree that an MMO “is all about” things you must do to earn certain rewards. Imagine an MMO that allowed you to gain one type of currency with ANY gameplay you preferred. Say you could earn it by Open World PvE, various instanced PvE, WvW, PvP, crafting, fishing, gathering, trading, etc. Then you could trade this currency that you earned by doing what you like in the game for any reward that you chose.
I have played the majority of AAA western MMOs as well as several asian MMOs and have never seen as many different currencies as in GW2. It’s a bit ridiculous really.
Well, your idea is just wrong then. I have yet to play an MMO that doesn’t have the algorithm “Do this activity Get that thing” which means you MUST do something to get things.
I don’t get what currencies have to do this discussion at all. Even if there was ONE currency, this and every other game would still follow the “Do this activity Get that thing” algorithm.
I don’t get what player willingness has to do this discussion either. Achieving content that no player will dislike is an insurmountable task. They serve a market; if someone isn’t part of that market, then the player needs to make better choices about what games they play, not the company to try to placate that player with content they want.
if you’re going for a legendary, you must do some things you might not enjoy.
Not sure why.
It should be obvious … the game is not designed around an individual’s wants.
Just because the game is not designed around each person’s wants does not equate to people must do things they don’t enjoy. An alternative to forcing players to do things they don’t want is for the devs to create choices in the system, for instance.
This theme is reoccurring with you. I frankly disagree with that statement you make, not because it’s my opinion, but because I understand GW2 isn’t philanthropy. If you spend time in a game, you ARE limited by the avenues that the devs give you to ‘win’ it. If you don’t like those avenues, then the reality is that you are SOL. There is no democracy here, no one asked us how we would like to earn legendaries. Is that bad? Maybe, but that’s not our call. You get the game the finite number of devs in a finite amount of time can deliver.
Besides … You exactly define what playing an MMO is all about. There are things you must do to earn certain rewards. I mean, what any particular players wants to do is completely irrelevant to how the game is designed. It’s absolutely ridiculous to imply someone MUST get a legendary in the first place. It’s a luxury item. So no, no one MUST do masteries for legendaries because legendaries aren’t MUST have items. In addition, that argument fails on another level … you can also make a first gen legendary. Those ones don’t require masteries.
For years after GW2 launched people talked about Legendary Armor. No one knew how it would be implemented. Look who gets it now that it’s here! It’s the demographic that bucked the system and asked for what they wanted, a type of content that was never even on the radar for this game. I guess the status quo is not as sacrosanct as you want it to be.
The irony is that these fringe developments, like Legendary armor, have such a small return on investment. Yeah sure Anet … please implement more game content that only a fraction of players care about … see where the game goes then. They stretch themselves thin and place significant resources away from the core of the game. This expansion coming … better come soon and be amazing.
I’m not against new things. I am against the ridiculous idea that people demand customized MMO content to suit their own desires and willingness of doing things just to get loot they aren’t willing to earn with the current systems. These people make it sound like there are no choices for them. The fact is that they dismiss all these choices (except the one where they don’t earn the loot) then turn around and act sensational about how it’s impossible for them or how they MUST do completely optional content for the most luxurious items in the game. MMO’s don’t work that way. We know that. This one is no exception.
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if you’re going for a legendary, you must do some things you might not enjoy.
Not sure why.
It should be obvious … the game is not designed around an individual’s wants.
Just because the game is not designed around each person’s wants does not equate to people must do things they don’t enjoy. An alternative to forcing players to do things they don’t want is for the devs to create choices in the system, for instance.
This theme is reoccurring with you. I frankly disagree with that statement you make, not because it’s my opinion, but because I understand GW2 isn’t philanthropy. If you spend time in a game, you ARE limited by the avenues that the devs give you to ‘win’ it. If you don’t like those avenues, then the reality is that you are SOL. There is no democracy here, no one asked us how we would like to earn legendaries. Is that bad? Maybe, but that’s not our call. You get the game the finite number of devs in a finite amount of time can deliver.
Besides … You exactly define what playing an MMO is all about. There are things you must do to earn certain rewards. I mean, what any particular players wants to do is completely irrelevant to how the game is designed. It’s absolutely ridiculous to imply someone MUST get a legendary in the first place. It’s a luxury item. So no, no one MUST do masteries for legendaries because legendaries aren’t MUST have items. In addition, that argument fails on another level … you can also make a first gen legendary. Those ones don’t require masteries.
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I can’t even …. Revs NEED a ranged condi weapon.
I don’t get it … FT kit played properly does lots of burning.
?
Argue what you want, but Panda nailed our situation.
Problems like lack of build diversity are problems that ANY game with unique flavors (classes), and with multiple paths (roles); are problems that are expected to be fixed from ANY game that wants to follow such philosophy.
If their philosophy is that kits must be an option open to anyone who wants to learn engi, who doesnt have money for the new fancy builds, and therefore it must kept alive all the time, like a stock basic build.
By all means alright, i can go with that, but dont forget we should (and any class should) have the chance to go more further, and people who desire to go further should be able to find a build, as good as the stock one when you compare it apples to apples, but with a different flavor when you play it.
True, stagnant is a problem that any class frecuencies, but dear, tell me the last time the grenade kit (for example) was out of the meta in pve… since my f2p entry to the game to today, i dont remember any moment the grenade kit was a bad or niche option, ever!
Things have been the same so much, that i agree with panda about having a change of winds, even if we are currently peforming well, just for the sake of seeing changes.
You can agree with that … even I agree that change is good sometimes … and then I remember that I play a game that is a service offered by company that tries to make money for it’s owners. that means that luxuries like ‘fresh’ gameplay and changes just because simply don’t happen, and for good reasons as well.
I’ve read what you had to say, but I don’t see Anet doing anything with Engi that makes it unique in any way from how Anet deals with the other classes in this game. The argument that Anet is treating Engis exceptionally in their balancing efforts to justify more change for the class doesn’t make sense because there isn’t anything exceptional going on here. It’s business as usual. You can’t invent the idea that somehow, Engi is some exceptional case. The complaints for Engi (balance, stagnant, etc … ) are just as prevalent for other classes in this game.
For instance, if a lack of build diversity is a problem for you, then why do you even play this game? There is almost no build diversity in the case where you want to achieve top performance for any class and there really never was. These kinds of complaints make no sense because the game simply does not deliver build diversity as a feature based on how it’s mechanics work, even if you believe it’s a problem or not. Just like balancing to the meta isn’t Anet’s goal, it’s as obvious that build diversity isn’t their goal either. Complaining about things the game was not designed to support makes no sense.
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