Guild Wars 2

The new maps were advertised as having areas with strategic relevance and towers you couldn’t just sidestep or ignore entirely. However, the areas have even less strategic relevance than they did on the old maps, which wasn’t even really a whole lot then either. The towers are in isolated corners of the map, which is something they specifically advertised the exact opposite of.

All of the sudden drop offs, and corridors severely inhibit fights, rather than encouraging them. All of the gimmick mechanics, such as the shrine buffs and the center event cheapen the overall experience as well. The center event also causes a great deal of lag.

Swagger.1459:

If you “leet” veterans are so good and knowledgable, why is wvw dying as we speak? Answer that. YOU peeps failed to provide the right direction to the devs and that’s very clear. Even way before these maps, some wvw servers were dying, but where were your suggestions that filled them and keep them competitive?

It’s funny but for the longest time matches and rankings were predictable, how did you all suggest to fix that? Answer is… you didn’t provide any real answers for the devs to chew on and implement. By all mean, though, keep doing nothing to improve wvw and flex your “wvw only” rank numbers like it will fix the problems… Most of you alienate new players too on these boards with your “leet” attitudes, so how is that wvw community building for ya?

3 years of bad decisions made by people who have no clue what they’re dealing with. Not only did they NOT make use of the suggestions given, even when they were given with frickin’ pictures, they actually did the exact opposite of what was suggested in most cases. They neglected countless bug reports, hackers, exploits and other technical issues, and most people gave up hope on them ever actually doing anything positive for WvW years ago.

By all means, though, keep displaying your complete ignorance of the situation and Narcissistic Personality Disorder. That’ll certainly fix everything.

What the hell is up with sudden influx of people with no real experience or legitimate qualifications coming in and trying to brow beat everyone into abandoning their home servers. Then acting extremely rude, condescending and entirely dishonest when they’re called out on their complete lack of knowledge of the subject matter?

To say this whole thing feels shady as hell is an understatement…..

Jayne.9251:

LetoII.3782:

Seriously dude, you did just admit you’re not even a participant. Stop suggesting stuff for us.

Since he is offering a lot of exclamatory statements on a mode he doesn’t play, does this qualify as him “violating my game mode”?

http://i.imgur.com/0fKEa6Q.png

#neverforget

I think that trying to make changes to a game mode he has next to zero experience with qualifies him for a job at Anet.

Swagger.1459:

Jayne.9251:

Swagger.1459:

Jayne.9251:

Swagger.1459:

Jayne.9251:

Swagger.1459:

It’s funny to see some of you rally for less fights and loot… With megaserver, you’ll always have high participation rates, more battles, more defenders, more scouts, more coverage, more rewards, more xp, more fun…

You peeps don’t really think beyond the current failing systems at all… It’s a shame.

You will lose your defenders, you will lose your scouts, when there’s no team framework to work with. You need to have a reliable team that’s on the SAME map every day in order for that to function.

Without it, it’s just a big blob fight. Like pve maps.

Not when you will need to coordinate taking and holding objectives and completing events for rewards… See HoT zone wide reward structure for completing events and timers?

Does that happen in EoTM now?

There’s your answer.

does eotm have the HoT reward structure in place? No. There is your answer. And it would be unlikely that eotm would need to get it anyway, considering it is in a healthy state and doesn’t count toward ppt…

Here read this to see a glimps of wvw future…

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/New-wvw-predictions/first#post5794780

Why do you care what happens to wvw when the bulk of your posting history indicates a love of pve?

Amd why do you keep spamming that link. Three times already in one thread? If people want to read it, they will.

I’m allowed to comment on any portion of the game and provide feedback. I’d prefer wvw if it were more fun and rewarding. I do eotm occasionally. I spend more time tinkering around the pve game and working on characters.

I was an avid zone pvper once with over 20 characters. I spent some time in arenas as well. I’ve played solo (roamer), team support, team heals, team disruption, melee and ranged dps, minor tanking for fun, combinations of these…

My heart is more geared toward players against other players, but this game needs a lot of work on the profession development and (certain) combat mechanics ends for me to take up any real interest. I’m fully aware of what goes on and what the game lacks in many ways with regard to pvp/wvw related things. I’m experienced enough to know the gist of “things” without spending 5000 hours in a certain game mode.

When the devs start taking profession development seriously and make strong adjustments to wvw rewards, population discrepancies, certain big mechanics and stuff…, then I’ll take the game and wvw more seriously. If that day comes, then I’ll crush all you “hardcore” “server priders” under the boots of my massive and elite army of digital soldiers, not digital potters. Until then, just be grateful I’m not in wvw destroying all your competitive hopes and dreams any more than these maps did.

In other words, you’re completely talking out of your backside?

We’ve started a thread here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Constructive-Features-for-a-good-BL-map/first#post5800985

It’s sort of like an impromtu community driven CDI, though we’re actually working on drawing up a map. Please feel encouraged to read through it, and post any feedback or suggestions you might have. Hopefully, we’ll be able to create a full blueprint for Anet to follow.

Jayne.9251:

Nuuuuu! Mah tower isn’t a McDonald’s date!

Must. Have. Gate.

Must. Play. Hard. To. Get!

Wp for tower comes at T3 upgrade. Not insta WP.

Hmm…. How about this then? Have the tower on an island surrounded by a moat, and have a wall kinda like how the old bay inner used to be? Not the height drop, but how the wall was a little bit back from the shoreline. But only an outer wall with some gates, but no inner wall/gate. And have the waypoint come at T3, but have this be the only area that auto upgrades. Given that it would be on an island, and there wouldn’t really be any way for yaks to actually get to it.

I think it should be more of a combat area, rather than a capture and hold area. Something that’s easier to attack the wall with siege than it is to defend the wall with siege, but better to defend with open field combat. I think sentries/scouts would already have enough areas they’d need to spread out and cover, and this area should be important enough to draw people there to keep it fairly hotly contested. This area should be unique, and unlike the other areas on the map. If it works exactly like the other areas on the map, then it loses some of its uniqueness, ya know?

Cerby.1069:

Phantom.8130:

snip

Your belief that Anet is a money-grubbing developer who doesn’t give a kitten about ever changing WvW, is very convenient for your argument to resist change of any kind. I’m going to dream though. I’m going to give them the benefit of the doubt for the sake of the future. I’m going to offer them ways to bring everyone the same level of experiences you seem to be enjoying in your server. By all means, advocate for people to simply server hop to servers like your own or the top tier servers. The bottleneck effect will kill many servers and whatever pride they currently have. It will fill the population limits of many servers and lfg or coordination of any kind will become even more frustrating, keeping each server isolated (“server is full” you can’t join).

Then the majority of players (should they want to try or play WvW) will all have to move eventually and ‘assimilate?’ into new server ‘cultures’. But as long as your server and its pride…and ‘culture’, for some reason exempt from changes from mass immigration, remain, I guess that’s a win.

Anyways let’s stop plugging the thread and wait for others to give their opinion. I think we understand eachothers positions fairly clearly.

Dude. I checked your posting history. You got the game at launch, then left until the expansion came out. You have no idea what the current state of affairs are. Check my history. I’ve made countless suggestions for change and am currently working in one of the threads to redesign the Borderlands map into something people will actually want to play. I’ve been here a long time, and know the lay of the land. You should learn the reality of the situation you’re stepping into, and cut the rhetoric. The fact that you need to pull out numerous strawmen arguments to try to discredit me, and discredit what is universally accepted as common knowledge these days, and the fact that you’re acting like things that were commonplace in 2012 “may eventually happen” means that you need to take a step back and actually learn what the current state of affairs REALLY are. No amount of snarkiness is going to rewrite 3 years of history.

Look. The lower tiers have already been abandoned by nearly everyone that wanted out by mid 2013. The bulk of the people left there are there because they want to be there. They don’t like blob fights, and prefer things to be small scale. They’ve stated that countless times on these forums. You don’t speak for them. They speak for themselves. And have done so countless times while you were away. I suggest to step back, take some time to really learn what all has been going on while you weren’t here, and then come back with educated opinions about things. Because just trying to paint me out to be some big bad guy, because I’m actually aware of the situation, isn’t going to cut it.

Another key thing to keep in mind here is the wording itself. it isn’t “WvW will get better” It’s not an implied message of hope that they’re doing anything to improve the state of affairs. It’s “WvW is getting better” which is completely different. It isn’t acknowledging that there’s something wrong that needs to be fixed, it’s telling people that in Anet’s opinion things are better now than they used to be, and that they’re going to keep on keeping on. Which….. fits Anet’s standard pattern of screwing up miserably, then steering into the skid as hard as they can. Same thing happened with Ascended gear. Same thing happened with the Living Story. Same thing happened with WvW Masteries. And now the same thing will happen with the stolen guild upgrades and empty, irrelevant, yet pretty, new Borderland maps. Any poker player on the planet knows how to read a tell, and Anet’s are glaringly obvious at this point.

Cerby.1069:

snip

I’m on TC. We worked out kitten off to cultivate the community we have there. I’ve seen first hand what happens when large chunks of several servers are suddenly thrust together. We had that happen. Twice. There’s a lot of tension. Cultures clash. People that enjoyed the culture and identity that was originally cultivated get increasingly frustrated watching it fade away, and then they end up fading away. Bad blood ensues, because every server thinks that their way is the right way. However, their way is only the right way for their particular server, their particular culture, their particular identity.

While is sounds great on paper, and believe me I had a similar idea a few years back when the seasons were happening, it doesn’t go nearly as well in practice. Unless you’re talking about just making one GIANT WvW, where every server has their own map, and is all involved in the same single match. Then identities can still remain unique.

However, that still doesn’t change the other issues I raised. Communication and coordination would still be difficult. Spying would still be rampant. Elitism would be very present. And Anet would never do anything that would impact their profits. And that last one is the ONLY thing that really matters, in all honesty. Anet and NCSoft have proven over the years that the ONLY thing they care about is money. We’re not people to them. We’re numbers with wallets. They couldn’t care less about our enjoyment of the game, or even the quality of the game. They care about getting out money. Nothing more. They do PR spin to try to trick people into thinking they care, but their actions consistently prove that it’s ONLY about money. Unless you can figure out a way to monetize an alliance or megaserver system, and make it more profitable than what the current transfers are bringing in, it’s never going to happen.

Edit in response to your edit: And there’s been a massive amount of guilds server hopping since Anet made transfers free shortly after launch. EVERY server has already been deeply affected by it. It’s not “something that might start happening”. It’s something that’s already been happening left and right for 3 years.

Because there’s a lot of people that DO care about their servers, and the communities that have been built there, and are only playing the game because of said community. And if said community was broken up, there would be a lot of people that would have no reason left to play the game at all.

Then you would be left with the same community the EotM has. None. There would just be a few groups doing their own thing. Communication and coordination would become much more difficult. Then you’d have a lot of rage flying around, because no one cares about anything other than their own enjoyment, and screw everyone else that happens to be on the same map. Which would drive more players out.

It would be a disaster. Sure, it may give the illusion that there’s a lot of people, but that illusion would be completely superficial. It’s the same as doing champ trains in PvE. Those aren’t social situations. It’s a ton of silent people who just happen to be standing next to each other at the same time. It would just create the same environment as a NY subway. Driving more players out.

Any atempts to try to recreate an actual community feeling would only create even more problems. Spies and saboteurs would be running around in overwhelming numbers, which would only ramp up paranoia and finger pointing. Creating a thoroughly toxic environment overall. Driving more players out.

Oh, and Anet wouldn’t be able to make truck loads of money from people buying gems to server hop, and they’ve proven over the years that anything that negatively affects their bottom line, even if it’s just by a couple of bucks, goes against everything they stand for.

So that’s several reasons why it would be a very bad idea to implement alliances, or a megaserver system. If you think things are empty now, removing the community element would absolutely KILL what’s left of WvW.

darkaheart.4265:

I like the idea of a giant tower in the middle of the map
this could save a lot of time traveling. only problem to keep players from abusing it would be to set a 10 or 15 minute cool down way point after a player dies or uses it.
of course this should only be use for players that are in their home borderland.

How about this? No front gate so teams can just run straight into it, and it goes contested when there’s combat there the same way the current ones do? This would allow small groupss to sneak in and steal it, and large ones to fight it out for it.

It would need to be able to be used by whatever team held it, so that it would actually be useful in expanding territory during a push. If it was just the home server, then it would be too hard for attackers to make any kind of progress on the map, effectively rendering them static. There needs to be some potential advantages the attackers can capture, and for servers to fight over. If the deck is stacked too far in the home server’s advantage, attackers won’t even bother trying to make a push on the maps, then they’ll just end up as empty as the current ones.

Towelie.9504:

I swear, if this was some NPC who had a spelling mistake in some lame roleplay story dialog they would assign 20 developers to work triple OT to fix it.

Please don’t confuse their storyline with anything even remotely related to roleplaying. It’s not. You’re not playing a role. Their storyline is a lot closer to being forced to listen to someone read their poorly written fanfic, complete with its own Mary Sue. As far as actual roleplayers go, they’re actually the one community that gets LESS support/attention from Anet than the WvW community. Which is pretty sad, considering it’s marketed as an MMORPG.

Azure.8670:

as a TC player I casually play wvw (in the past, its all I did) and I havent really touched it since HoT came out. I decided to finally hop on it since I need the tokens anyway… and whoa. the Borderlands look gorgeous, and im completely alone. This has to be the worst thing ive ever seen. Anet, im not exactly sure why people left wvw (not that many played it to begin with) but you guys need to do a major overhaul on rewards (thats been an issue since day 1) and many other things to get people in here. This is so depressing I had to alt tab just to type this. im going back to pvp/pve because this may make me cry

The new maps are pretty, but as far as being functional goes, they’re a hideous failure. Plus that center event causes a ton of lag. Add in the massive grind and paywall for guilds to get back all the upgrades they used to have, and the fact that the only way to do all of that grinding is by doing PvE, and the combination of factors explains why the new Borderlands are empty. And when you add kitten price tag onto all of that, there’s going to be a LOT of unhappy people. A lot of people have outright left. A lot are in PvE grinding to get back all of the upgrades that were taken away. Anyone that’s left is in EB anymore.

Kirito.2195:

These are really awesome ideas and initiative. +1 support <3 As a community we have to get things back on track. The Alpine map had very simple concepts which made it easy for people to just go to anytime and I’d love to see that with these layouts you guys are putting forth. The middle ground WP is a great idea, the thing the new BL’s are sorely lacking is the ability to move from point A to B easily, we’re gamers, we’re lazy LOL.

The camp placement in the northern section make great use of the once notoriously empty NW and NE Corners (Alpine) and I really like the idea, as the new maps do well, not having a desolate and pointlessly open northern section. The idea is to be streamlined and compact?

The main idea is to ensure everything is strategically relevant and create a better environment and atmosphere in WvW. The layout they’ve used for the north in both borderlands maps was literally the complete opposite of strategic relevance, so flipping it upside down was the best possible way to go. The result was the camps being up in those corners. Which killed two birds with one stone.

If they absolutely insist on having the skritt and a second group of NPC mobs, they can stick them way off to the outsides of the northern towers and make them mercenaries like the ones in EB. So that they’d actually have some relevance too.

Hmm…. just had a thought. What if PPT only came from the keeps? That would ensure they’re the primary targets. With the layout of the towers actually blocking the way to the keeps, those would still be important targets too as buffers/staging posts, but it would mean a zerg couldn’t just come in, grab a couple towers then map hop away. They would have to take a keep to make any really difference in the score, which would promote several fights along the way. And unless a server is just outright dominating all of the maps, it would keep the scores relatively close throughout the week, which would keep things competitive and avoid people giving up after the weekend because it’s already a blowout.

Can this thread be stickied, so that it doesn’t keep falling off the page, and people can post their suggestions here instead of making new threads for them?

Twinny.9304:

lol I can just see it now, big announcement saying “We know how much the WvW community loves PvE, so we have decided to release a hint that the next Elder Dragon is located in caverns beneath stonemist castle in the eternal battlegrounds, and we will have a huge story line with many meta events situated in WvW.”

/sarcasm

in all seriousness, map designs are moving very similar to EoTM style maps, and I don’t think they understand that players that play WvW “full time” are in most cases not the same people that play EoTM’s, to make everyone happy they need to seperate as many similarities between WvW and EoTM’s as possible, when it comes to map design, we see them as 2 different game modes. EoTM is one big K-train (i know it was intended as a solution for queues), while WvW is primarily (excluding a few servers), used as battlefields. EoTM is for rewards/karma/WXP and WvW is for winning can be winning fights or MU’s. It’s starting to feel as though any things being added to WvW now (just like the new maps), should belong to EoTM not WvW.

New maps look beautiful, and they should be very proud of them, but they don’t belong in WvW. Personally I would place them (with a little tweak) into an EoTM rotation and give WvW alpine maps back 25% larger than before with the sentry effect, old waypoint and upgrade system.

Careful. When they were releasing the WvW masteries, I made a joke about them releasing PvE mastery next and…… now there’s PvE masteries. They seem to take clear sarcasm as wise and insightful suggestions, good suggestions as mindless complaints, and legitimate complaints as personal attacks against the very core of their being. It’s a very bizarre state of affairs.

Ok. 3 levels on the tower. How about this? The first level, the stairs are on the inside. Then it switches to a double helix layer up the outside to go up to the second level. Up there is the Tower Lord (possibly with special mechanics like the lords in the new map?), and the gate going down to the bottom. From there, is another outer layer, but only a single one up to the top where the waypoint is.

I think it would be best to avoid including the gliding with these maps, to make sure that no one can just glide into a tower from up there, and to not leave out anyone that didn’t buy HoT.

Tongku.5326:

My ideal map ?

Take the original BL map with lake in middle, remove the lake and put some terrain there, but not as vertical and impassable as the ruins were.

Move Bay and Hills closer to defenders spawn, MUCH closer.

Redo the pathing, get rid of the zig-zag, switchback and cliffs by defender spawnpoint and provide more direct routs to garison, hills and bay. So that it takes roughly 20 seconds less time to get from spawn point to the keeps then it does from the attacker spawn point to get to them.

The keeps and garison themselves I would like to see somewhere between the old and the new. I like the wall height, siege placement etc. on the new ones, its much better balanced and things such as cannons, mortars etc. can be of some actual use before they are destroyed. But I do think there is just too much surface area and they are too labyrinth like. Make them more “straight forward” to navigate.

Eliminate things such as orbs, laser event, skrit, centaurs, replace them with additional WVW objectives, perhaps some additional towers ? Or an entirely new type of structures about half way between tower and keep ?

Add 1 more supply camp dead smack in middle of the map. Make this one a bit tricky to take so that a zerg just rolling through can not do so without significant delay.

Check the thread that was linked in the first post.

Well, if you can, send word through the grapevine and direct the devs to this thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Constructive-Features-for-a-good-BL-map/first#post5794055

Dawdler.8521:

Phantom.8130:

Oh, I figured each server should have 1 keep on the map, to act as a foothold there.

Problem with this is that its not so much a border anymore – its EB/EoTM lite. A border IMO isnt supposed to be “fair”. Its supposed to be either your home or enemy territory. Each side having a keep close to spawn as an equal “foothold” doesnt go well with that. This is the reason I despise T0 waypoints, it basicly make 2 out of the 3 keeps another servers property. Makes it feel like you are the aggressor in your own home.

Your map design would for example be more suitable for a single instanced border. Thats not necessarily a bad idea but I really cant approve of it myself.

Ok. Readjusted it. The distances between the towers and the keeps is a max treb length. The NE and NW camps send a yak to the NE and NW towers, and to the North Keep. The Central camp sends a yak to the NE and NW towers, and then to North Keep. The SE sends a yak to the SE tower and East Keep. The SW camp sends a yak to the SW tower and West Keep. And the South Keep sends a yak to the SW tower, then West Keep, and another yak to the SE tower and East Keep.

The NE and NW towers block the road to the north keep and NE and NW camps, but also act as staging posts to attack the North Keep, and the East/West Keeps. The center area is a giant tower, surrounded by a moat, with a giant spiral staircase that can be captured and will have a waypoint on top for the server that holds it to use.

Areas need x amount of yaks to upgrade, which needs to be manually clicked, so that roamers can still kill yaks/flip camps to deny upgrades. Waypoints in Keeps come at Tier 3.

The area near the roads between the keeps and towers is relatively flat and open. The areas around the camps are partially enclosed with choke points for roamers to use.

That’s a full recap of everything so far. How does it look/sound?

we’re doing our best to design a map for them in this thread here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Constructive-Features-for-a-good-BL-map/first#post5792983

Jayne.9251:

Phantom.8130:

Ok. How about a really tall tower with a waypoint at the top, and a portal going down to the bottom that the “owners” can use? The waypoint would give it significant map relevance, kinda like how to the waypoint in SM does, so the owners would want to keep it and the other servers would want to claim it. The question is, should the stairs be on the inside or the outside, or both?

I love that idea!

Stairs definately inside only. Have to get the gate down to at least start climbing the stairs. Defenders can use ac to control chokes, but a massive blob will just brute force it and win if there’s not an early response. And a small havoc team can flip it too, if it’s not watched at all.

Ok. I’ll update the map then.

Jayne.9251:

Phantom.8130:

EDIT:This version of the map isn’t pretty, but just to get the general layout fleshed out. Once we have that, then we can worry about prettying it up.

The only thing I’m not overly fussed about is the gates in the middle of the map. It’s too central and too easy for people to race to the gate to prevent a stomp. We already have the “exit the mists” heroes .. let’s make it a bit tougher for them.

Oh, that’s more along the lines of a waypoint. I figured that it would be something for a server to capture and hold, and then whoever’s holding it would be able to waypoint there from another gate set up inside their keep. I originally figured something along the lines of how running the orb used to work, where you had to get the orb and take it to your keep. Though it was the actual running it and mounting it parts that would get hacked/exploited via fly hacking. So instead, it would either need to be escorting an NPC, or capturing an area.

It’s not one of the gates to go back to PvEland.

Jayne.9251:

Dawdler.8521:

Jayne.9251:

Maybe have this newly claimed center island tower show enemy on all the map for like a minute after flipping it as reward. Better yet, have it momenarily show enemy siege placement (so you can see if enemy objectives are piled with ACs trebs, particularly useful for a golem army, etc).

Aaaand that’s where you lost me, because as usual this is a type of suggestion that replace the work of scouts, an essential aspect to the reason people even play WvW. Commanders ask “is there siege in that keep?” and someone say “oh I’ll go right on ahead to check!”. Communication. Teamplay.

Yah yah yah. I’m a scout too, remember? :p

I was trying to figure out a good incentive for those who like to blob only vs rest of WvW team. The new sentries showing enemy briefly in the mini-map seems to have been a good idea, most folks like it and use it.

So this tower should be a special unicorn, there has to be benefits to slog up the 100 step choke/blood battle, as well as there needs to be reasons to defend. It absolutely would be a king of the heap kind of victory. If no one’s there to defend, then it’s just a rather long jog up a set of stairs. But if we had a portal like Bay now has that zooms defenders to the top from outside, (that only comes with T3 upgrade), it would give some last-minute epic saves/battles.

And there has to be a reason to WANT to save it. If it gives away your siege placement on map (albeit briefly and you better have a good memory, cos you only get 60 seconds), AND if it gives garri electric gates (love that idea), then you will definately want to control that tower from a scout/defensive perspective.

From an enemy perspective, it knocks down the keep upgrade (electricity), AND gives you a quick peek at the map for further strategy (what had less siege? target it next, etc ..)

Dunno, just brainstorming. Always liked the idea of a lone, tall tower at the center of a lake (INC water battles! Oh how I miss those).

Ok. How about a really tall tower with a waypoint at the top, and a portal going down to the bottom that the “owners” can use? The waypoint would give it significant map relevance, kinda like how to the waypoint in SM does, so the owners would want to keep it and the other servers would want to claim it. The question is, should the stairs be on the inside or the outside, or both?

Dawdler.8521:

Phantom.8130:

Here’s a map I came up with a few days back. It’s just a first draft, and nothing’s set in stone. I figure that it can be used just to get thing started, and altered and adjusted based on feedback.

While I mostly like the design of the upper part, I think the lower part is entirely wrong. The concept of a home border should be that the 3 keeps (if we are sticking to the 3 keep “triangle” foundation) is on or above the frontline, the main combat area. The home border server should feel safe in trying to defend all 3 keeps against the 2 invading servers – thats what bring the fights.

I can instantly see that your idea does not do this. Home server will not be able to defend hills and bay (lets just call them that lol) nor the two left/right towers within the green zone (too far from the keeps), which leave only garri, some camps and the two towers as the main bastion on the map.

In comparison on alpine, the main bastion was nw/ne tower, 3 camps, garri, bay and hills while the two border towers and 3 camps are “below” this line, areas the enemy could easily control.

To compare with desert, it sort of share the alpine design but hills and bay are way too far apart, making it a stretch (literally) to try to defend. And of course its utterly ruined by T0 waypoints which completely mess up the frontline (its pretty much garri and a supply camp and thats it, the rest is easily held by enemies).

if I was home I could post some pictures of what I mean, but unfortunetly its time for work

Oh, I figured each server should have 1 keep on the map, to act as a foothold there. And also Siegerazer would go to the keeps instead of the towers. Once a server has a foothold, they can begin expanding outward from there.

As for the side towers, yeah. That area just looked really empty to me, and I didn’t know what else to put there lol. Hmm…. Maybe if I removed those and just slid the whole south up, that might be better. I attached what that would look like below. Let me know what you think.

EDIT:This version of the map isn’t pretty, but just to get the general layout fleshed out. Once we have that, then we can worry about prettying it up.

Jayne.9251:

Details like these are important. Thanks to everyone in thread for actually giving concrete info.

I hope it gets read.

P.S. Consider making an actual map drawing to get into specifics/mechanics.

Here’s a map I came up with a few days back. It’s just a first draft, and nothing’s set in stone. I figure that it can be used just to get thing started, and altered and adjusted based on feedback.

As far as the distances between things on the map, the keeps and towers closest to them would be at the max treb range of each other. The distance between the towers would be the max treb range as well. Just barely enough to hit the wall, but not enough to hit any of the siege inside. The center of the map would be where a capturable waypoint would be. The white area could be a giant keep, or a giant tower, or even several bloodlust ruins style capture points to make roamers even more important, or even bringing back the quaggans, or a combination of things.

I figure the landscape should be sloped downward towards the middle, so the entire map almost resembles a giant bowl. The areas around the keeps and towers should be flat and open, to promote open field fighting, while the areas near the camps should be where the choke points are concentrated, to give roamers an advantage there.

Thief shortbow skill #1 is being obstructed by nothing. If I’m on the same level as the target, with nothing in the way, half the time the obstructed message pops up. If I circle around, sometimes that fixes it. However, there’s never anything actually in the way. I’ve mainly noticed it happening with keep/tower lords and camp supervisors in WvW.

Just…. keep in mind, on the old borderlands, the gate in the NWT had a glitch from the very beginning, where someone could just…. pop through it. Even when a dev was the person that popped through it, they still hadn’t fixed it 9 months later. I don’t know if they ever actually did.

Their pattern since launch isn’t one that inspires a whole lot of confidence.

Masori.3528:

Phantom.8130:

There’s problems on so many levels, that even fixing one level completely won’t have much impact. Everything from the very foundation all the way up needs redesigned and completely reset. And that even includes the mindsets of a loooooot of players. Unfortunately, that’s just plain not possible. Anet isn’t going to fix the foundation as well as all of the details built on top of said foundation, and the playerbase isn’t going to go do some studying of actual strategy. So….. we end up with the constant karma train. Because that’s what it’s set up for, and that’s all a lot of people know.

+1

The blobmentality is what broke WvW.

Well…. yes and no. The maps are a major part of the problem. They need completely redesigned. The layout of where the areas are needs fixed. The design of each of those areas needs fixed. The overall structure of the system needs fixed. That’s all on Anet.

However, I think back to previous MMO’s I’ve played, and look at how the PvP went with that. There was always a small portion of players who played for the objectives and wanted to focus on them, and learn the best way to capture/defend them. But there was always a larger portion of players who just….. facemashed against each other in every match, and were entirely irrelevant to the outcome of the matches. They just wanted to fight each other and didn’t care about anything else. Or anyone else. Many of those players would be the ones who ignored everything and just focused on grinding so they could get top PvP gear and have easier wins in their useless fights. Look at TOR as the perfect example of that playing out. How many Huttball matches had a tank and a healer just….. standing in the acid pit the whole time to get their medals for healing and soaking, while ignoring the entire match and just being a burden on the rest of their team? It was commonplace by the time I quit that game.

There’s players who want to focus on strategy, there’s players that just want to focus on the fighting mechanics themselves, and then there’s a LOT more players that just want easy wins for selfish reasons. And the kicker is, I’ve noticed that there’s a lot of PvP guilds across all of the MMOs, that start off with one or two big names that excelled at either the strategy/objectives or the mechanical fighting, and then the guild was filled in with some people that legtimately wanted to improve in either aspect, but also a LOT of people that just wanted that tag recognition so they could try to lord it over people. “I’m in (insert guild name here), so you HAVE to do what I say!” yet…. when it came down to it, those people were completely useless buffoons.

So it’s the combination of several factors. Bad design being a major portion of it. But some lazy, selfish, narcissistic players, who pretty much suck the life out everything they touch, because that’s all they’re good for. And then the odd dynamic of the good players who actually know what they’re talking about, but end up being drowned out by a combination of ignorance, psychotic politics, and sometimes even outright harassment.

However, Anet can’t fix the problems with the playerbase. Those are problems that exists in every MMO, and furthermore every online game. Good parenting is the only solution for that. But Anet can fix the problems with the game itself, but…. they have to actually know what they’re doing in order to be able to do that. All signs point towards them not only not knowing what they’re doing, but being able to admit that they don’t know. An error doesn’t become a mistake until it’s refused to be corrected, and by that standard, Anet’s made a LOT of mistakes concerning WvW. The sad part is, they can’t even really trust the playerbase to teach them. There’s so many conflicting answers, from people who actually know what they’re talking about and people that just think they do, that the whole thing is a wash. They need to do some legitimate studying of the subject matter. Research maps of battlefields from real historical wars, read The Art of War by Sun Tzu, and similar literature. Learn what actual militaries learned over centuries of trial and error, and apply that knowledge. Look back to the Renaissance era, to see how battles were fought then, how battlefields were selected and prepared, and apply that knowledge. But…. they’re not going to. The do PvE, they make PvE, they know PvE. That’s their wheelhouse. They’re not going to broaden their horizons. They’ll just keep quiet until people are sick of complaining, take whoever’s still left, and spin a new narrative. That’s much easier than actually cracking open a book and learning.

Walls need to be made higher, so that people can’t AoE up onto them. That would also make cannons and oil useful, instead of the death traps they’ve always been. Then the only way to attack someone that’s on a wall is to set up siege, and to put it far enough back to have an angle to reach the top of the wall. Then counter siege can be built by the defenders, to take out that siege. Then counter siege can be set up by attackers to take out that siege. It’s all about counter play.

For a typical scenario, the attackers set up catas against the wall. The defenders set up a cart on the top of the wall, to attack the catas. The attackers set up carts (or even balistas) back from the wall to attack the carts on top of it. The defenders set up a treb to hit those carts. The attackers set up a couple trebs in different spots to attack those defensive trebs from different angles. Unless the defenders have trebs/mortars already facing those spots, the defensive treb will go down, then the cart on top of the wall will go down, then the wall can be dealt with. A smart group would just start with taking out the trebs/mortars first, and narrow in from there. A bad group would just drop 3 rams, and then come to the various WvW forums to demonize siege and try to shame anyone that uses it properly, because they didn’t understand anything beyond simple facemashing. Or they’ll blame PUGs for their bad choices. Sometimes even both.

Unfortunately, that process has already been going on for a very long time, because there’s a lot of people that think that all it takes to be good at WvW is to just watch some old youtube videos of RG, and scream into their microphone. Failing to realize that they’re not par, and that while RG was fantastic at GvG, they weren’t really famous for focusing on the objectives.

And then the game gets dumbed down to the point where bad tactics and strategy not only is ok but actively encouraged by the way things are set up. And good strategy gets tossed completely out the window and ends up as some bizarre foreign concept. Though ironically, when taking an objective, actual good strategy will always hold the advantage, simply because it’s good strategy. But everything else gets nerfed to the point where bad strategy is almost on par, and the maps end up being changed to where a karma train is pretty much all that’s left. Because it’s easy, and not much thinking involved. Just like the champ trains in PvE. Then Anet can look at the silent blobs, and call it a “social experience”.

There’s problems on so many levels, that even fixing one level completely won’t have much impact. Everything from the very foundation all the way up needs redesigned and completely reset. And that even includes the mindsets of a loooooot of players. Unfortunately, that’s just plain not possible. Anet isn’t going to fix the foundation as well as all of the details built on top of said foundation, and the playerbase isn’t going to go do some studying of actual strategy. So….. we end up with the constant karma train. Because that’s what it’s set up for, and that’s all a lot of people know.

Jayne.9251:

Dawdler.8521:

When Anet decided on a “desert border”, they could have pleased us all by simply reskinning and updating alpine. For example:

Naw, if they did that, they’d be accused of trying to pass off “easy work” and being lazy. And ignoring the WvW community by doing something simple that would be interpreted as neglect.

People cried about two things for the past three years (well they screamed about a ton of stuff, but these were the top two): Population imbalances and wanting a new map.

Nobody went into specifics of how this new map should be composed, there were vague suggestions (some of which were implemented like the sentry alert and tougher/higher walls and gates), but nothing about the architecture. We’re only seeing those kind of comments after the fact and during beta, when they’d already gotten too far into a commitment on the overall geography to make any significant changes without massive cost and time.

Actually…. I was very specific in a number of posts/threads from up to 2 years ago. In one of the threads, someone even provided a picture. Another post was in the CDI with a dev post directly after it. I can even provide links if you’d like. So it can’t really be said that no one went into specifics, or that no constructive posts were made well in advance, or that any specific, constructive posts were buried and they never had a chance to see it. They just chose to go in a different direction.

I wasn’t burned out. In fact, I had only recently come back from a long break. I was actually very excited for a new map, especially after reading this: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/essential-elements-of-the-new-borderlands/ Where there’s a whole section about how they made the areas more strategically relevant, and they said that towers weren’t going to be “isolated landmarks for invaders to sidestep”. That’s the part I was the most excited about.

Then the new map came out and the towers were….. even more isolated and even less strategically relevant. They don’t create “a noticeable impediment to the movement of enemy armies” unless said armies are trying to get to the skritt. It was bold faced lies. But even still, I decided to try the new maps out, because while the layout of the old borderlands was pretty bad, I had a lot of fun playing on them. Unfortunately, I can’t say the same about the new maps. I tried commanding. I tried following. I tried sentrying. I tried sieging up areas because I had planned on updating a guide on borderland defense I had written. Even putting aside the lack of enemy players, it was a complete let down. A headache to navigate, isolated irrelevant targets, the human element removed, supersized structures, and then the laser event.

My time in game tapered off, and is practically nonexistent anymore. So no, I wasn’t burned out prior to HoT. The new maps killed my desired to log into GW2 at all anymore. The blatant lies from Anet certainly didn’t help matters, but their inability to admit their mistakes and actually learn from them made things even worse. The really ironic part is that the break I was coming back from was taken because I was unhappy with the lack of support Anet has shown for WvW, and the complete lack of understanding they’ve shown with nearly every aspect of it, from the details to overall concepts, since launch. I should have known better than to believe them, but that was my mistake. Fortunately, I wanted to test the waters before sinking money into an expansion, so I saved $50.

Yuffi.2430:

Thanks – I’m aware of Archonwing’s sticky and have posted there. However he is asking very different questions as I’m sure you know having read both.

This thread is not asking for recommended changes to the new maps, but asks instead what features do we as a WvW community think make a good map to play in – in other words what should Anet include in order to make any map we can all enjoy. They have had a try themselves with the Desert Borderlands and given the number of posts about it I thought it may be worth giving them some help in a positive way.

Despite the title, Archonwing’s thread is mainly asking about the impact of the new BL on players: probably so Anet can realise how what they have done has affected the people who play in WvW. The only overlap is where he asks “How can the new BL be improved”. This is not the same as “What features make a good BL map and why?”: firstly because I’m not suggesting we limit ourselves to using the new map as a starting point if we don’t want to, and secondly because I’m inviting people to explain why they think a particular feature is needed (so the devs can understand the reasons for any suggestions).

Hopefully this helps clear up why I thought this is worth a different thread.

TDLR: The two threads ask different things for different reasons.

Hopefully, this thread will end up getting stickied too.

Oh, and there is something else we’ve overlooked. A good Reward system. I’d say to use what they had in the old borderlands as a base. Then either give a set amount per tick to everyone involved in capturing it, defending it and/or maintaining it (setting up/ticking siege, ordering the upgrades, repairs, etc.). Or just go with the old system but triple the amount given for a successful assault, and give five times the old amount for a successful defense. I know it may seem like a lot, but…. it still wouldn’t even be on par with what be made by farming PvE. I’d even say to add the new materials to the normal WvW rank up chests too.

What you have looks pretty good for the most part. I’d only add that the keeps should be in the back lines, and the towers should be positioned in front of them. (Divide the map up into 3 thirds, the north, SE and SW, and build outward from the spawns, defensively.) And I’d specifify that between the thirds should be relatively flat and open, but the corridors and choke points should primarily be the entrances into the camps. This way the larger forces have plenty of room for open field fighting while pushing from their third into the enemy’s third, while smaller groups can use the terrain to their advantage while fighting over the camps.

I’d also add that a center event should be something relevant, so the servers will want to capture it, but not overpowering. A waypoint for the server that owns it is the best idea I can come up with. Have it set up like the bloodlust ruins were, in that there’s multiple capture points and 3 out of 5 need to be capped and held for a minute or so. If the keeps are set up in proper defensive positions, this waypoint would be pretty important to any server wishing to expand their control of the map. However, they’d still have to fight for what they get.

And there’s a few limitations that should be mentioned. Please no gimmick mechanics. (such as the buffs from the shrines, for example) Don’t make NPC mobs a crucial part of the gameplay. Keep it simple. Function over fashion.

Osu.6307:

Haven’t we learned anything in the past month? If you want anet to address a problem with their product, a forum posting with AT LEAST 3000 replies is required. Otherwise, it’s just normal, everyday player whining.

To be fair, when ascended gear came in, the thread there was massive, and very much against it, and…. they pretty much said “yeah, whatever” and went through with it anyway. Plus this is the WvW forum, where a “yeah, whatever” would be a welcomed change from the overwhelming amount of silence. So… over the past 3 years, we’ve learned…. Anet’s stance is “whatevah, we do what we want!”

GTA Online. Amazingly good if you go into private sessions, the wild west in open sessions. Overall, I highly recommend it if you have a few people to play with.

zinkz.7045:

Phantom.8130:

To be fair, EB has the best setup of the three. Not necessarily the spacing, which does tend to make the pace a lot faster, but how the layout made the areas in each third strategically relevant. If you want to take a keep, your best bet is to take out a few of the towers first, because the towers assisted in the keep’s defense. Both versions of the borderlands lacked a strategic layout. Being able to treb the garrison from the northern towers was a minor bit of strategy, but that’s the equivalent to a fingernail compared to an entire person. Now, with the new maps, there’s not even that fingernail.

I disagree, borderlands were much superior to EB, for a start EB is very imbalanced, there is a fair difference between how strong each keep is, there is a difference in towers such as green does not really have a weak tower, when you compare it to Durios (blue) or Anza (red), etc.

Then you have waypoints, on borderlands upgrading to / preventing / taking down / defending a WP was far more important than those on EB, it was probably the biggest strategic map based objective in WvW and biggest strategic driving force, things like preventing the opposition getting a WP in bay/hills have been removed from the game. (that this is gone with perma WP & autoupgrades is one of the reasons the new map is such a failure, the basic lack of understanding of WvW by whoever came up with the map and new upgrade system is well…).

The fact there were three keeps, and that it was reasonably common for the home side to get garri + 1 other upgraded at times meant that defense was generally much more interesting than EB, where all that really counted was your keep, then the 1 or two defensive towers like Veloka, jerri, etc, but they are right next to the keep, which is kind of dull, part of what made defending say garri + hills both getting attacked at once interesting is the distance between the two, not too far that it was impossible to get reinforcements in or react, but so close that you can virtually defend two thigns at once, like you can in EB, and beyond that it was the importance and strategic value that made it interesting and worth defending, losing Veloka might not be good, but really pales into insignificance compared to losing hills or bay with a WP.

Furthermore you have the actual keep design, the keeps on the old borderland gave far more tactical options and produced far more interesting fights than the simplistic, rather one dimensional ones on EB (garri especially).

As for the “northern towers was a minor bit of strategy”, I look it like this, every tower except the SE one on the old BL had some strategic value for attacking a keep, on EB half the towers are redundant and SM is the biggest red herring in the game.

Which is why, or at least what I found on multiple servers (on EU) that most veteran players whether they wanted fights as a guild, decent fights as an open raid or liked scouting / upgrading or whatever, preferred the borders, often leaving EB to newer players / casual players.

The problem with EB is that most of the towers are right on top of their respective keeps. If the spacing between the towers and the keeps were a full treb distance, it would be much better. You’re looking at the details of EB, but you need to be looking at the overall concept instead. The keep is the heart, and the towers support the keep. That’s an intelligent layout. Intelligent layouts are far superior to “the keep is in the front and exposed, and the towers are behind it and isolated”. Look at it like this, you get a keep, 2 towers and 3 camps to work with. You have to set them up to try to defend them. How are you going to position those areas? If you look at the way the thirds are set up in EB, that’s at least close. If you look at any of the thirds in any of the borderlands, they’re completely backwards and designed not to be held and defended, but to be easily captured. That’s the problem there. They’re not laid out in positions that help keep them safe, they’re laid out in positions that make them easy targets.

Furthermore, a waypoint in the EB keep is crucial to the defense of the entire third. A waypoint in any of the keeps on the borderlands primarily just meant a little less distance when running to somewhere in the south. On your home borderland, the southern towers were completely worthless, since Sleazerazer could just be activated to take those, so the waypoints in the hills and bay had considerable less value. The only thing the waypoints were good or was spamming on them when the timer was low during a defense. Going even further the hills was important to defend, because it could be absolutely brutal to try to attack, so it was better to hold it. But the bay? The bay was mindnumbingly simple to capture, so you didn’t even need to bother defending it, unless you were just looking to fight some people.

As far as the actual design of the interiors of the towers and keeps, I certainly preferred most of the old borderlands to Eb or the new borderlands. The hills was awesome, the garrison was pretty good, and the NE tower was my baby. But the west side of the map needed improvements. The NWT was far too easy to siege cap. The bay was hideous, in that the defenders were on the severe low ground. the SWT suffered from the same problem as the NWT. The SET was good, but a single treb from the hills completely neutered the place. Now, those problems could have easily been fixed. The NWT and SWT could have had some modifications done to them. The bay’s inner could have been raised up and just leave the water as a moat there. And the SET could have been raised or the hills lowered so a treb would only be able to reach the back wall (which would have needed to have been made breakable). But let’s not pretend that EB doesn’t have some good and bad towers as well. The new borderlands are….. well…. they’re…. hideously bad. The art team may have done a good job making them pretty, but…. the sheer number of fatal flaws with the design, both overall and in the smaller details, absolutely kills every bit of it. The southern towers aren’t complete crap, but that just means they have a little bit of good mixed in with all of the bad. The keeps are nightmares. The NWT might be ok with 10 people inside of it. The new NET is a glaring example of bad design philosophy. And what’s worse is…. what are the northern towers protecting? The PvE mobs to the north of them. The skritt and whatever the hell that other thing is in the NE have towers to protect them, and the bizarre keep is a sitting duck.

Now, imagine this, if you will. Start with the old borderlands. Swap where the garrison and the north camp are. Slide the northern towers up along the road to be within treb distance from the garrison. Now, look at that third from a defensive point of view. Next, swap the hills and SE camp, then the bay and SW camp. Then look at those thirds from a defensive point of view. In each third, your keep would be in the back line, your towers would in in front of them to defend them, and your camps would be off to the sides. Sure, attackers could just go straight for a keep, but their best bet would be to take a tower and set up and pressure from there. Attackers would need to push out to advance, and defenders would need to push out to halt that advance, so open field fights would happen between the objectives. Sure, the defenders could try to sit inside on siege and wait for the attackers to approach, but the attackers could just drop an open field treb and take down all their siege. It’s those layers of strategy and counterplay that used to come in small doses, but have now been completely removed. But they should have been at the forefront from the beginning.

Kaiser.9873:

ArchonWing.9480:

People are back!

In EB, sadly.

It’s gotten to the point where sometimes a 40 queue is seen in EB and there are requests to the queuers in TS go into homebl, but nobody will do it. They’d rather sit in Lion’s Arch then go into the borderlands. I can’t say I blame them much.

And to be fair, everything in EB third is so close and quick to keep tabs on, it feels more home than the rather large and spaced out actual home.

I think this is the problem. Perhaps they should’ve replaced EB with some version of the desert map, and left the home BLs alone.

To be fair, EB has the best setup of the three. Not necessarily the spacing, which does tend to make the pace a lot faster, but how the layout made the areas in each third strategically relevant. If you want to take a keep, your best bet is to take out a few of the towers first, because the towers assisted in the keep’s defense. Both versions of the borderlands lacked a strategic layout. Being able to treb the garrison from the northern towers was a minor bit of strategy, but that’s the equivalent to a fingernail compared to an entire person. Now, with the new maps, there’s not even that fingernail. The Borderlands desperately needed redesigned, but they failed miserably. They went in the complete wrong direction and took away the minor bit of strategic layout that there was. The maps need to be designed from a defender’s point of view, specifically the layout. To do anything else is to actively screw them up. And you end up with the Desert map. And not just one defender’s standpoint, all three. The maps need to be divided up into thirds, and those thirds need to be layed out for proper defense. Not for Karma Training, and not like a PvE map. Currently, EB is the only map that does that. So instead of removing EB, they should learn from it, or worst case scenario, just make 3 EB’s.

They’ve pretty much been ignoring the WvW community since launch. Any and all hostility is in response to their neglect. This isn’t a chicken and the egg thing. In the beginning, people were very friendly towards them and….. nuthin’. And over time, the community grew less and less friendly as a result.

The kicker? People were far more hostile in the PvE sections, especially when Ascended gear dropped, and devs were very active there, with countless posts and meaningful discussions. The fact of the matter is, WvW just isn’t important to them. They want a revolving door of PvEers, because that’s who they can milk money out of it. And that’s not me spewing hate, that’s just the reality of the situation.

Now, sure, there will be some White Knights who try to rewrite reality by completely ignoring history and any semblance of logic, but…. there’s usually only about 5 of them roaming around the forums at any given point in time. While the names may change, the overall number of them tend to stay the same. Which is pretty odd when you sit down and think about it. Add in that if you really pay attention to them over an extended period of time, the sheer mountain of lies that they have to rely on becomes very apparent and obvious. They’ll say one thing in one thread one day, then the complete opposite in another thread a few days later, telling two completely different and conflicting stories, or taking two completely different sides. They also generally tend to try to browbeat people who criticize the state of things, make constant nitpicking demands, or unreasonable demands, then act as though if the person doesn’t jump through hoops for them that the person isn’t allowed to be unsatisfied. Which….. if you’ve ever actually studied the subject, fits the mold of the psychopath. You have the pathological lying, the gaslighting, the blatant manipulation attempts, the lack of empathy, playing the victim when confronted, and even the parasitic behavior.

The entire situation is a very sick, sad state of affairs that should never have been allowed to happen, but this didn’t originate with the WvW community. The WvW community has simply been reacting accordingly to the outright neglect and abuse its been shown. It isn’t a surprise when a starved, beaten dog snarls at people. The same concept applies here.

EDIT: Also, they’re most likely going to lock this thread.

Lord Kuru.3685:

I’m pretty sure Siegerazor walked through a gate and took a tower in my matchup. As I walked by the tower, it was blue (we’re green) and Razor’s yak was headbutting the gate. Walls were also up.

Next thing I know, the tower flips green. No green dots on the minimap anywhere in the vicinity.

So it seems autopilot is already happening.

As a side note. It was 10pm pacific time, tier 4, and we had maybe 5 players in all of EB… and we weren’t even outmanned. That’s how bad it is now.

To be fair, Sleazerazer had a habit of glitching through the gates on the old maps too. So we were being prepped for autopilot the instant he was put in.

You think the appearances they gave the new superior siege is something now, just you wait.

How long do you guys think it’ll be before they start selling advertising space inside the game? Instead of supplies, the yaks could be bringing Pepsi. Instead of towers, they could be Taco Bells. Instead of camps, they could be Orange Julius’s. And instead of Keeps, they could be Pizza Huts. They could even go a step further, and have the individual pieces of siege sponsored by companies too. Balistas, Catapults and Trebs could all be sponsored by Smith & Wesson. Golems could be sponsored Old Spice. Omegas could be sponsored by Nike. And obvious the rams would be sponsored by Viagra.

Then they could afford to hire an actual WvW team, instead of just sticking whoever drew the shortest straw as the figurehead/scapegoat, and outsourcing everything from the PvE departments.

coglin.1867:

Phantom.8130:

It’s essentially the same event that the original Orb event was, only with an NPC carrying the orb instead of a PC, so that a hacker can’t get it and flyhack, like what was happening with the original orb event. (yes, the hackers were also wall jumping/fly hacking into keeps to get the orbs afterwards, but this system completely avoids that since there’s no orbs in the keeps once the event is accomplished). And this would also have quite a bit of PvP involved with it as well, since the orb carrier would need to be defended. So it would be two (or three) servers attacking each other while an NPC is present. Very similar to a battle in the Lord’s Room of a tower/keep currently.

I do not see how this justifies adding a PvE mob and therefore PvE event in WvW. One of the most common and largest complaints is that Players do not want PvE in WvW. Simply because you can find another PvE mob to liken it to does not make it a good idea, it makes it a bad one.

Fair enough. That center area could be redesigned then. however, the key part of the map isn’t the center event. It’s the layout of the keeps, towers, and camps, and the paths leading to it.

Since the bloodlust ruins were pure PvP, they could replace the orb carrier, and a server has to cap and hold a ring, or multiple rings for x amount of time to successfully complete the event.

dancingmonkey.4902:

That is a very bad design in my opinion. There are very clear differences between the green area and the other 2, when it comes to pathing, spawn area routes. There are proximity issues that favor one color over another.

I mean, I guess I can see what your trying to do, but it is so rough, unsymmetrical, out of proportion, and lacking information on how far things are apart in relation to siege range.

One thing I do not understand, is that in your post, you tell us where fights will happen. What is that about? No offence, but it feels a little hard to have an honest discussion about, when you go as far as to tell us what players will do, when in reality, you do not have a clue.

As many post as their are throwing out PvE hate in WvW (you have some yourself) what possessed you to believe a PvE escort quest is what anyone wants?

The set up is actually very close to the current and previous borderlands setup, so the very clear differences are already present. These are Borderland maps. They’re supposed to be a bit out of proportion in favor of the home server.

Nitpicking about the quality of what I called a “quick draw up” is pointless. I’m not trying to win an art contest. I’m trying to convey a concept.

Fights happen at objectives. They happen on the way to objectives. Those would be the paths that are on the maps. Granted, people could always just go off into an empty area and start fighting, much like people did south of the windmill for GvG’s. However, those who are actively trying to capture objectives will always fight at them or on the way to them. If you’ve ever tracked a zerg’s movements on the map, you’ll see these patterns emerge.

It’s essentially the same event that the original Orb event was, only with an NPC carrying the orb instead of a PC, so that a hacker can’t get it and flyhack, like what was happening with the original orb event. (yes, the hackers were also wall jumping/fly hacking into keeps to get the orbs afterwards, but this system completely avoids that since there’s no orbs in the keeps once the event is accomplished). And this would also have quite a bit of PvP involved with it as well, since the orb carrier would need to be defended. So it would be two (or three) servers attacking each other while an NPC is present. Very similar to a battle in the Lord’s Room of a tower/keep currently.

dancingmonkey.4902:

That doesn’t make any sense. How does clicking one link mean he isn’t cherry picking? All that means is that I was mistaken about one threads age. Cherry picking (which it obviously is) and being mistaken about a threads creation date are not related in any way that I am aware of.

Phantom.8130:

I went back through some of my own posts, since those were easy enough to find. If you expect me to produce a comprehensive list of every good suggestion that’s ever been made in this section of the forums, you have very unrealistic expectations.

Precisely. Cherry picking indeed. This also implies that if you didn’t participate in a discussion, that it didn’t happen.

Phantom.8130:

Are you honestly trying to say the CDI wasn’t one of the larger threads that occurred in the WvW section?

I have no idea how anything I said even begins to imply anything of that nature. Mind specifying something in my post that implies this, so I can address it specifically.

Phantom.8130:

Because the overall discussion is the same exact discussion that’s happening in multiple threads right now. People don’t like the new maps and they’re letting their opinions be known. However, It seems that some people feel the need to attack them for their opinions, in the most dishonest ways possible. I want facts to matter, not manipulative narrative.

You may not want to be so quick to point figures. Some of your comments to people who appear to like the maps, or who do not see why other dislike them, could very easily be called attacks.

Really? Show me where I ever attacked anyone for liking the new maps. You can’t. Because I never have. If people like the new maps, it’s their right to have their opinion of them, and I respect that opinion. If they don’t like the new maps, that’s their right to have their opinion of them, and I respect that opinion.

What I don’t respect are people attacking other people for their opinions. I don’t respect blatant trolls. I don’t respect manipulative behavior. I don’t respect intellectual dishonesty. I do respect opinions, though.

dancingmonkey.4902:

That doesn’t make any sense. How does clicking one link mean he isn’t cherry picking? All that means is that I was mistaken about one threads age. Cherry picking (which it obviously is) and being mistaken about a threads creation date are not related in any way that I am aware of.

Phantom.8130:

I went back through some of my own posts, since those were easy enough to find. If you expect me to produce a comprehensive list of every good suggestion that’s ever been made in this section of the forums, you have very unrealistic expectations.

Precisely. Cherry picking indeed. This also implies that if you didn’t participate in a discussion, that it didn’t happen.

No. It really doesn’t. At all.

dancingmonkey.4902:

ArchonWing.9480:

Dude….. I click on the first link, and it says “2 years ago”

Furthermore, the game has changed a lot in 3 years; what was said in 2012 may not be accurate today.

Though the game may have changed, it doesn’t mean many of the request did. The game changing, does not dismiss others view, opinions, and request, unless those very aspects the posters were discussing, were specifically addressed.

I Just do not see how 1 picture in one threads, represents what everyone wanted, as he appear to be attempting to imply.

That’s nowhere even remotely true. Nowhere did I imply that it “represents what everyone wanted”. The threads that I linked showed very clearly that suggestions were made, that the suggestions were extremely clear in what they conveyed, that they weren’t demands, and that they were presented in a constructive, respectful manner. It was a counter point to coglin saying that things were"unspecifically demanded".

There were plenty of specific suggestions in this section. Some by me, some by others. They were specific. So “Unspecified” isn’t true. They were suggestions. So “Demands” isn’t true. Unless you can read those posts that I linked, as a small sample, and think they’re “unspecified demands”. But, considered they were very clear, and even had a picture, you really can’t.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Phantom.8130:

coglin.1867:

It is not near as sickening as players who do not appear to know what was actually asked for. They listened to players, then they gave them changes that fir the criteria of what the posters unspecifically demanded.

If you lack of awareness of what was requested, “sickens” you, perhaps you should go back and read the “demands” for changes.

Once again…..

Specific, detailed suggestion on the map design: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Beside-bug-lag-Bal-how-to-improve-WvW/first#post3024534

And in the CDI: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/cdi/Collaborative-Development-World-Population/page/11#post3127179

And here, with a Dev post directly after it: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/WvW-Three-Likes-Three-Hates/page/3#post3550372

And here, and someone even included a picture for them to work from: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/I-think-WvW-needs-more-updates/first#post3921113

And a mention here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/WvW-Three-Likes-Three-Hates/page/4#post3555006

And another mention here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Serious-zerg-question-for-REAL-discussion/first#post3678370

And after HoT launched, the same exact thing here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Constructive-Feedback-Desert-Borderlands/page/2#post5700665

And here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Like-or-Dislike-new-WvW-Bordelands/page/4#post5701734

Every time you try pulling this “it wasn’t clear!!!” card, I’m going to post these exact same links. These are extremely clear, and there’s even a picture if they couldn’t figure it out. Stop lying, stop bullying people, stop trying to play the victim after you do so. Respond to these. How are these not clear? How are these not specific? How can anyone not understand them?

I have a question.

With three years of threads with complaints, players demands, criticism, and discussion, Why do none of the threads you chose go back more then a year?

Are you cherry picking your threads or discounting any thread?

I find it a little convenient That you claimed to have been away from the game for extended periods of time, and thus chose to completely ignore many of the larger threads that occurred during the time you said you were away.

Is there a reason your ignoring 2/3 of the overall discussion?

1. As ArchonWing said, the very first link is from 2 years ago.
2. I went back through some of my own posts, since those were easy enough to find. If you expect me to produce a comprehensive list of every good suggestion that’s ever been made in this section of the forums, you have very unrealistic expectations.
3. Are you honestly trying to say the CDI wasn’t one of the larger threads that occurred in the WvW section?
4. Because the overall discussion is the same exact discussion that’s happening in multiple threads right now. People don’t like the new maps and they’re letting their opinions be known. However, It seems that some people feel the need to attack them for their opinions, in the most dishonest ways possible. I want facts to matter, not manipulative narrative.
5. Is there a reason you’re blatantly trying to call my credibility into question instead of actually addressing any of the points that were made? Give it a try. Argue against the points that I made. Tell me how the suggestions I made weren’t clear. Tell me how they wouldn’t be a positive change for WvW. Tell me anything that has anything to do with the points that were made. Argue honestly.