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Who sets Gem prices?

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Psientist.6437

I don’t really like that Anet heavily taxes the gem/gold conversions. It removes all of the ability to speculate on the gem/gold conversion market.

No, it doesn’t. It just means that you are highly unlikely to profit in the short term from said speculation.

And I do like the high fee for exactly the reason you don’t. People do NOT need to be flipping Gems for profit at the expense of the casual players.

But they will anyway, flipping is PvP negotiaiting and it is clear Tyria attracts PvP economists

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

Recent Market Shifts. Follow-up: Precursors

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

I’d like to point out that contrary to what you might believe the percentage of player-base that frequents the forums of a game is so minuscule and bias on various topics that Arena Net knows fine rightly facts and figured regarding all aspects of the game; they designed and programmed it.

As such, should a particular aspect of the rewards system (the RNG factor of precursor drop for instance) be unrewarding or becoming an unbalanced tool for coin gain they will have no problems adjusting/reconfiguring the system. Remembering its most likely the result of internal data-mining and not forum complaints.

It appears this thread has gone wildly off topic forgetting that the original post was specific to Market shifts in relation to the precursor. Not how full of kittylitter the system is attain a legendary.

P.S I’m very interested into why the current system has failed so miserably to the point of actually discouraging people from even attempting to get a legendary. As mentioned there are a small percent that want a legendary and an even smaller percent that have one. But we’re forgetting the majority of the playerbase who simply don’t have any motivation to begin the “journey”, which as a game designer I know I’d start to question exactly where I went wrong in my design :/

Hopefully I’d like to be able to answer/support that with some significant data…

The telling of “GoldSellers, GoldBuyers and GoldSinks! Oh MY!” should have a happy ending, but will indeed need telling.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

Recent Market Shifts. Follow-up: Precursors

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

We’ve received a large amount of feedback about Legendaries becoming unreachable. This is actually a topic we’ve been tracking for quite some time. To ease your minds I am here to say that it’s something we’ve been watching and we’ve been listening to your feedback. You can expect to begin to see changes addressing the issue starting with our next build.

Thank you, the most important thing to hear is ‘we are together on this’. The Tyrian gold valuation process is the most important measure of what you consider together.

Can we get back to the discussion of surveying and data-mining as quantum causality tennis?

edited for spelling and syntax

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

Recent Market Shifts

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

Please pardon my last mental fart. I have been taking this discussion seriously over the last few days because it is important to me, but I have burnt out and need to take a break.

This is my position the last, recent, next “Recent Market Shift” was, is and will be the result of the BLTP’s currency exchange’s Algorithm. The Arenanet’s RMT of Tyrian gold, is not a currency exchange but an investment/stock in Tyria/Arenanet. Most Tyrians have no idea what is going on within the “currency exchange” tab.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

Recent Market Shifts

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

All Tyrians could post buy and sell orders for Tyrian gold
The BLTP can only post buy orders for Tyrian gold with the express intent of removing Tyrian gold from the economy
Tyrian’s choose how to spend their Tyrian gold

Personally I would take 20-30-40%? hit selling to BLTP before using the open market

edit, if anyone calls it an innate gold sink I will go to 50%
edit, this isn’t right yet

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

(edited by Psientist.6437)

Recent Market Shifts

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

SoftSpoken,

You are not yet seeing how differently the player controlled (almost) Trading Post and The Currency Exchange (never) operate. If only one person in the game could post buy and sell orders for Green Wood Logs, would you buy green wood logs?

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

What is the future treatment of the economy?

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

Im That Guy, would you consider moving your focus to the stickied thread in this subforum Started by John Smith called Recent Market Shifts??

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

(edited by Psientist.6437)

Recent Market Shifts

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

Trading gold for gems is a goldsink. The person who sells gems gets about 30% less than you have to pay for your gems.

Trading gold for gems is a goldsink, but not because of the 30% fee. Trading gold for gems is a goldsink because it is not a currency exchange but a derivative.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

Recent Market Shifts

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

Overvalued Tyrian gold is making it too easy to buy gems. The demand for character slot unlocks, bank unlocks etc….Arenanet’s source of reliable income, is very rapidly being filled. The gem store’s innate ability to serve as a Tyrian gold sink has been gutted, they will be left with only keys to drive gem sales.

Gonna take a moment to point something out here: the Gem Store has never been a gold sink. It is a gem sink, since the items in it can only be purchased with gems. The ability to buy gems with gold doesn’t actually create a gold sink, since gold doesn’t actually leave the system by that interaction. It just gets shifted around between players.

The model Arenanet is using functions as a Tyrian gold sink, but you have correctly pointed out a flaw in my assumptions. If only Tyrians posted buy and sell orders, the usefulness of the BLTP as a gold sink is in question. I have been struggling with how useful a dual NPC trader open market would work. I just keep running into how unethical the current use of a trader feels.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

Recent Market Shifts

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

I’d thought that ANet only put in a base amount of gems into the market at the start, and backed out from there? You can claim that they’re fudging with the market all you want, but I don’t really see any evidence for shifts in prices that can’t be more easily explained by someone else playing the market in a smarter way than you, or me.

I don’t think many people understand the BLTP currency exchange.
I also don’t think most people care.

Is ANet responsible for the cash value of every item? Yes, in a sense, because they’re profiting off people buying gems and injecting them into the market. Are they themselves injecting gems/removing gems from the market arbitrarily? I don’t believe so.

Auvic, I offer no harsh rebuttal, this is indeed difficult to grasp. The product Arenanet is selling through the gem exchange is a similar to a stock or a government bond. I am beginning to feel this may have taken them by surprise. I do not know what this means for Arenanet/NCSoft or the gaming industry in general.

I have faith in ArenaNet employees. They live in a state that voted for Obama, in support of same sex marriage and the legal recreational use of marijuana. It is early Friday morning in Washington, if what I am saying is not true please, it is your responsibility to Tyria to call me out.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

Recent Market Shifts

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

And here I thought people found gems too expensive to buy. Huh.

..Can anyone translate the rest of that post? Aside from “gems are too cheap, this isn’t about entitled babies”, I…can’t get anything out of that.

Arenaet, here is another definition of your ethical aesthetic. How many Tyrians do you think understand just what the BLTP currency exchange is?

Auvic, like you I have no problem with prices going up or prices doubling as long as I am doing business with Tyrians. I wonder if the Algorithm includes the number of Tyrians who would consider it their obligation to undercut the Tyrian gold offered by organized crime RMTs?

When Arenanet opened Tyria’s doors, they set the BLTP’s buy and sell orders for Tyrian gold and all change in the value since has been the result of an Algorithm translating Tyrian behavior. The BLTP is the only entity posting buy and sell orders and we well and truly have no idea what is going on with the valuation of Tyrian gold. All we know so far about the Algorithm is that demand for gems is predictable and exploitable.

That Algorithm means Arenanet is directly responsible for the cash value of every single item available in Tyria.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

Recent Market Shifts

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

How any Tyrian can continue to make this thread about the cost of Legendary weapons is beyond me. How any Tyrian can continue to argue the conditioned reflex that RMT is evil is beyond me. The title of this thread “Recent Market Shifts” is about Arenanet’s behavior as a Real Money Trader of Tyrian gold, the decision to offer a Tyrian gold derivative disguised as a Tyrian gold currency exchange. Just as Facebook overvalued its IPO, so too did Arenanet. Overvalued Tyrian gold is destroying the Tyrian economy and what it means to be Tyrian. Does being a citizen of Tyria mean giving Arenanet the power to set the cash price of a Legendary? Or anything in Tyria?

Arenanet could put the parts of Legendariest up the arses of 1000 Jormags and Tyrian Heroes would climb up Jormag’s kitten 1000 times! As Tyrians we would have to decide what to do with these half-insane kitten covered Tyrians running around yelling “Say hello to my little friend!” As Tyrians, we also have to decide what to do about Arenanet telling our half-insane, kitten-covered Heroes that Legendariest also costs in cash. The only people who can tell our half-insane kitten-covered hoeroes what Legenderiest costs in cash are other Tyrians.

Look closer at this thread and any thread in this subforum about RMT and gem prices. If you want to continue thinking this is about entitled babies consider this.

Overvalued Tyrian gold is making it too easy to buy gems. The demand for character slot unlocks, bank unlocks etc….Arenanet’s source of reliable income, is very rapidly being filled. The gem store’s innate ability to serve as a Tyrian gold sink has been gutted, they will be left with only keys to drive gem sales.

The Algorithm Arenanet is using to determine the value of Tyrian gold told us what to expect from high gem demand events. Anyone could follow the predictable pattern established.

Arenanet, you have lived up to your promise of making gems available for Tyrian gold, now please stop killing Tyria with kindness. You have made so many statements of ethical intent. You know mmo’s need a new business model. You know what is needed, a true way for Tyrians or any citizen of art to hold the builder/developer/artist accountable. If Tyrians controlled the value of Tyrian gold, the moment the buy and sell order spread starts to widen beyond norm would give Arenanet the most ethical, the earlist alarming, the most Oh kitten I am Tyrian give more Tyria measure of the success of their artful efforts.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

Recent Market Shifts

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

This is one of the most fruitful post in the entire forum lol.
Love reading it.

Indeed! Is there a more fitting topic for a Tyrian pub!

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

Is it possible to flip items in this game?

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

I’ve never flipped items before, but my friend told me that it can be very profitable. I did some research, and I’m trying to flip some items, but it seems almsot impossible to buy items low. I’m getting like 2 items a minute.

Am I just doing it wrong, or is it actually impossible?

I have been active in other threads in this Subforum concerning Tyria’s economy. If you take the time to read them, up to you, my position/answer would be clear. I posted a plea for Arenanet to close the gem store and it was redacted because it was not conducisive to the thread. Arenanet please close the gem market. That’s it for me here.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

How you prevent players from buying gold to goldsellers ?

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

Astraea, your position has evolved dramaticly. Are you Tyrian and do you want answers?

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

How you prevent players from buying gold to goldsellers ?

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

The 30% gap in the BLTPs buy and sell orders for gems is a forced gap that, if we as Tyrians traded ourselves would reduce to as close to zero as possible. Making speculation almost impossible.

The algorithm told us what to expect from high gem demand events like holidays. Any Tyrian could defame their citizenship by following the pattern. The current mechanic will continually consume the demand for gem store exclusive items with Tyrian gold.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

How you prevent players from buying gold to goldsellers ?

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

Tyria needs people who keep swinging.

Are you Tyrian?

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

How you prevent players from buying gold to goldsellers ?

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

As is our right as Tyrians. Tyrians will drive up the supply and cost of everything because being Tyrian is good.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

How you prevent players from buying gold to goldsellers ?

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

Please, please

If you have been following this thread and want answers, call out as Tyrian.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

How you prevent players from buying gold to goldsellers ?

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

The myth of the Black Lion Trading Post gem exchange as a player run currency exchange has fallen. The deepest cut Blizzard left was their silence on the official forums. Somewhere between

I don’t want to get into an argument, so this is the last statement I will make here:

and Arenanet sticking its head up it own arfe as a display of commitment to be a careful steward lies Arenanet’s ethical aesthetic.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

Recent Market Shifts

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

Outfitting 8 alts in exotics will be difficult but less difficult than making a Legendary weapon.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

How you prevent players from buying gold to goldsellers ?

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

If I may Astrea? Do you think Arenanet has unresolved ethical questions to answer about its entry in the RMT of Tyrian gold?

I think ArenaNet are behaving quite ethically with respect to how RMT of Tyrian gold works. I believe that the system they have implemented means that they do not directly benefit from the gem -> gold transactions, and in addition, players selling gold using this system gain in-game benefits that aren’t necessities to play the game.

ArenaNet’s revenue is based on the gem store, so while people may buy gems with the intention of converting them to gold, ArenaNet really only “profits” when those gems are spent in their store. The system rewards ArenaNet for offering items in the store that people want to buy (for either real money or the equivalent gold) not on how many people want to spend real money on acquiring gold.

I should mention that there is an indirect benefit from the gem -> gold exchange for ArenaNet, which is a result of the 30% margin between the two exchange rates. The benefit of this is that it acts as another means of removing gold from the economy thereby helping to reduce in-game inflation.

What is the difference between the cash I spend on gems with the intention of buying a bank upgrade and the cash I spend on gems with the intention of buying Tyrian gold?

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

How you prevent players from buying gold to goldsellers ?

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

Look more closely. At the…is there a word for the very first plot point?..very first plot point is the BLTP’s (and it really is their fault I think and not Arenanet’s) SETTING value for Tyrian gold. The proceedong squiggle is driven by something to do with us and I am certain it does include how many gems we want and how many gem’s BLTP has. Maybe some how many gems we may want some how much total Tyrian gold is there some are we ethical hopefully

Sadly, the gem price data from gw2spidy doesn’t go all the way back to launch, but yes, ArenaNet did set an initial price point for the gem exchange at launch. They probably also initially seeded it with both gems and gold to allow transactions to occur as soon as the game launched.

Without knowing how the exchange rate algorithm works (even if only in general terms), we can’t be sure what influence that initial rate or seeding has on how the current rates are determined. I do think there could be more transparency in this area, even if it’s just a high level overview of how the algorithm works.

If I may Astrea? Do you think Arenanet has unresolved ethical questions to answer about its entry in the RMT of Tyrian gold?

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

Recent Market Shifts

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

It’s safe to assume that ArenaNet is making adjustments to the economy based on information about the game that we don’t currently have. They’re adding a whole new area mid-month, and have said outright that they plan to expand the game a great deal in the future (implied to be the near-ish future, as opposed to waiting for an expansion a year from now). Does the current availability of materials and currency make sense if ArenaNet is planning to add a lot of max-level content that gives comparable rewards?

Are you suggesting that all the economy needs is more stuff?

I’m suggesting that the changes to the economy that seem unfairly restrictive now may be based on future plans to give us more ways to get the stuff that currently is very rare, expensive, and only available from one or two places.

That sounds like a gear treadmill for Arenanet…..

Having realized that a gear treadmill sucks for them, have they decided to put themselves on one, the Tyrian economy on one?

I have no idea how you got that from what I posted.

Right now we have a relatively small amount of max-level content compared to the rest of the game. Most high-end items are only available through that content, which means that stuff is far more rare and expensive than the stuff available in the rest of the world. That stuff also continues to be in demand after characters reach max level.

If they add more areas and activities that also reward those high-end items, availability will increase. For example, right now orichalcum is pretty hard to find, because spawn points are limited. Supply will increase if ArenaNet adds a number of areas through content patches which also contain orichalcum nodes.

A “gear treadmill” occurs when previous tiers of gear are made obsolete by new content, meaning you’re always chasing the next tier. What I’m talking about is horizontal expansion: the same stuff you were always after, made more widely available.

That would accomplish the same thing as increasing the drop rate of the current content.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

Recent Market Shifts

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Psientist.6437

I have been vocal about what I think is wrong but I haven’t offered anything except “Stop it”. Economic forecasting is no easier than weather forecasting and instead of heat and moisture you have Dusk, green wood logs, a skale boss, me, you…Who wants to look like an idiot when the sun doesn’t shine? More importantly, I don’t want to be that home-owner that tells a builder how to pound nails.

Arenanet, there is a terrible smell and noise coming from the basement, could you please check. These are my tools, I am stilling using a NERD1000, but who knows, if it stops that stench…

Alternates are your long game, make having them easier.

Evolve Karma into an a more viable option to Tyrian gold: account bind Karma, play with karma marketplace, perhaps a bazaar in the major cities, festival items for karma, MF recipes using karma. Evolve it but keep it within the bounds of what it represents in the context of traditional mmo economies: quest rewards.

Change bag unlock and costumes to account bound upgrades. Leave dye unlocks as is, only thing wrong with them is that you once said they would be much cooler.

Use Achievement points to reward heroes with gems. The ratio is completely up to you but will give you a way to measure, according to your ethics, what a precursor is worth in cash.

Turning the algorithm off will mean stopping gems sales and temporarily halting the sale of Tyrian gold. Make it easy to spend our gems by slashing prices on everything available for gems, especially mystic keys. A MF recipe combing chests and gems may be fun. Only the people who are holding gems for speculation would be adversely affected. Once the algorithm is well and truly dead and you have given us time to spend our current gems and have a handle on how many gem.0s achievement points are being generated, resume trading of Tyrian gold without any interference from Arenanet.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

Recent Market Shifts

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

It’s safe to assume that ArenaNet is making adjustments to the economy based on information about the game that we don’t currently have. They’re adding a whole new area mid-month, and have said outright that they plan to expand the game a great deal in the future (implied to be the near-ish future, as opposed to waiting for an expansion a year from now). Does the current availability of materials and currency make sense if ArenaNet is planning to add a lot of max-level content that gives comparable rewards?

Are you suggesting that all the economy needs is more stuff?

I’m suggesting that the changes to the economy that seem unfairly restrictive now may be based on future plans to give us more ways to get the stuff that currently is very rare, expensive, and only available from one or two places.

That sounds like a gear treadmill for Arenanet…..

Having realized that a gear treadmill sucks for them, have they decided to put themselves on one, the Tyrian economy on one?

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

How you prevent players from buying gold to goldsellers ?

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

The only way to prevent people from buying illegal gold is to punish those that do and make it known to the rest of the players.

ANet could also start up a reward program for those that buy directly from them (gems that is) to add more value and try and compete with the gold sellers (which offer 4 times the current conversion value).

How would they make it known? Line up the heads of characters on pikes around Lions Arch? They have already stated the number of accounts they have banned due to gold selling/buying and that has shown little to no effect.

The reality of it being is that threats do not work. The drug war has plenty of threats and guess what? Use has gone up.

They can threaten and they can cajole, but the reality of it is that when a person doesn’t see direct damage due their action when they are doing it then they don’t perceive it as a crime or as a problem. Hence gold buying to the buyer typically seems innocuous. Again I am not defending gold buyers and gold sellers. I don’t care if they are gaining it in legitimate or illegitimate manners. I would simply like to remove much of the carrot for both the buyer and the seller.

Arenanet obviously did not want stockpiles of gold to be in the game which then makes gold pointless. It is why they put sooooo many gold sinks into the game. Precursors quickly make gold aquisition a high desire. Look at what was intended to be a long term goal: Cultural Tier 3 armor and that ENTIRE set is a fraction of the cost of a legendary precursor. How can the game have economic balance with those forces on the TP?

We banned 5000 accounts today. These accounts purchased gold from third party sites.

I have never heard of them banning gold buyers, only attacking the gold sellers.

The bolded statement, can you accurately cite?

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

How you prevent players from buying gold to goldsellers ?

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

Your position that prices are SET by supply and demand can not be defended. Are you sure you want to?

Look at http://www.gw2spidy.com/gem

This looks like supply and demand to me, especially when you look at what happened to the rate when the new halloween offerings went live in the gems store. If the change in rates illustrated in the charts isn’t driven by supply and demand, then what is the cause?

Look more closely. At the…is there a word for the very first plot point?..very first plot point is the BLTP’s (and it really is their fault I think and not Arenanet’s) SETTING value for Tyrian gold. The proceedong squiggle is driven by something to do with us and I am certain it does include how many gems we want and how many gem’s BLTP has. Maybe some how many gems we may want some how much total Tyrian gold is there some are we ethical hopefully

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

Recent Market Shifts

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

It’s safe to assume that ArenaNet is making adjustments to the economy based on information about the game that we don’t currently have. They’re adding a whole new area mid-month, and have said outright that they plan to expand the game a great deal in the future (implied to be the near-ish future, as opposed to waiting for an expansion a year from now). Does the current availability of materials and currency make sense if ArenaNet is planning to add a lot of max-level content that gives comparable rewards?

Are you suggesting that all the economy needs is more stuff?

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

How you prevent players from buying gold to goldsellers ?

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

oZii,

If we can spend cash on gems, sell gems for Tyrian gold, spend Tyrian gold in Tyria then we can buy anything we want in Tyria with cash. Arenanet has designed a game that includes RMT of their games currency as a reasonable gameplay.

That is very true and correct. Though paying is not a necessity to enjoy the game or required to progress.

And Arenanet’s ethics determines how it manages that mechanic.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

Recent Market Shifts

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

Precursors being too expensive or hard to get is not the problem with Tyria’s economy. If we end there, then I think we need to start with NPCs giving our heroes Tyrian gold as being the problem. Since all games will generate a supply of their currency as long as someone plays, we could start with GW2 being popular. All of you get out of Tyria I want my Legendary! I would say that if Arenanet hadn’t broken my heart.

As Heros of Tyrian we have one of the best jobs in the world, we are guaranteed an income just for participating. The endless rain of income fills the landscape as water does; forms streams, oceans, icebergs. Precursors are simply the deepest well Tyria has to fill. But it can and does overflow and the point that it does is what we are experiencing as economic weather. The bottom of that well is rapidly being gouged away by Tyrian heroes heroing. The water has no where to go because Arenanet’s inaccurate RMT valuation has built a dam around the well.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

How you prevent players from buying gold to goldsellers ?

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Psientist.6437

Arenanet,

Even though I had traded kitten for D1 and D2, I could not buy Diablo3. Let’s face it, we could measure any game in kitten traded. When you value a game with something as precious as kitten, you start asking tough questions such as: Is the game developer ethical? I could not answer yes with Diablo3. I watched the gamers who would and did purchase D3 debate the ethics of the Blizzard’s real money auction house and understood the debate with my head only.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

How you prevent players from buying gold to goldsellers ?

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

oZii,

If we can spend cash on gems, sell gems for Tyrian gold, spend Tyrian gold in Tyria then we can buy anything we want in Tyria with cash. Arenanet has designed a game that includes RMT of their games currency as a reasonable gameplay.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

How you prevent players from buying gold to goldsellers ?

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

The basic thing keeping most players from buying from 3rd party is basic common sense:
A.) Do I risk having my account stolen/banned or even my real life credit ruined because I want more “bang for my buck”
or
B.) Invest in the game by purchasing gems and get a lower return out of it but be assured that the transaction is 100% safe.

most people will side with the safer and even more productive option in the long run since you will be creating revenue for Anet as well as being assured that there is zero risk of something negative happening. For those people who see fit to endeavor into the riskier and more destructive mode of obtaining their gold (It is in all honesty damaging to the game to invest in a 3rd party gold seller), I’m sure they will get their just rewards in time.

In the end it comes down to; shall I ruin the game, or invest in it’s future?

GW2 has a full cash shop and Arenanet’s choice to arbitrarily set the value of Tyrian gold is more exploitative than blizzard ever thought of being.

It isn’t arbitrary, since the gem to gold and gold to gem prices aren’t set by Anet.
the prices are set by supply and demand e.g. someone buys some gems, and them transfers them to gold, this will cause the price of gold to raise as there is a demand for it. So the next customer who wants to transfer gems to gold will have to pay slightly more for the same amount of gold, and so on and so forth. Until someone comes along wishing to transfer gold to gems, which will in turn boost the value of gems and reduce the value of gold slightly . This is also only true to the cash shop, the value of gold does not raise or lower through other sources in the game and as such only effects gem to gold and gold to gem exchanges via the cash shop.

As Pluto is relevant to a discussion of what defines a planet, the way your position defines Goldseller is relevant to what define RMT in a modern multi-player game.

Your position that prices are SET by supply and demand can not be defended. Are you sure you want to?

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

Who sets Gem prices?

in Black Lion Trading Co

Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

Basically the system is the same as in GW1 for traders. In GW1 it took some time but in the end prices stabilized. Some events seriously shaked the economy and could influence prices but on average ecto was extremely stable in the long run.

That’s not the way I understand the GW1 economy. From what I understand (didn’t play long enough to know personally) Glittering Dust (or maybe it was another commodity) became the de facto currency of GW1

The de facto currency was ecto, just the way I said…. the value of ecto was based on extremely stable trader prices.

The price of ectos in GW1 was stable because the NPC trader and the P2P economy functioned hand-in-hand, each working as a relief valve for the other. That model is extremely stable. We would have never chosen ectos as our currency if we had not been able to freely trade them amongst ourselves.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

Recent Market Shifts

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

Step One : Admit to ourselves that allowing Tyrian gold to be bought for cash means that GW2’s cash shop actually lists every item in game.

Step Two: Admit that the BLTP gem exchange is not a currency exchange market, it is a derivative market. Make no mistake the current market valuation of Tyrian gold is derived from Arenanet’s opening buy and sell orders and an algorithm translating player behavior.

Step Three: Replace every reference in this thread to Tyrian gold with your choice of real world currency.

The price spike doesn’t represent a shortage, it represents prices returning to where they should be without bots. This change creates more opportunity for players playing the game to earn money. The oversupply the bots created hurt the legitimate producers of items. As the prices go up, more real players will enter the market.

John Smith, ask yourself and every other Arenanet employee this question….

Which “Developer as RMT”/Cash Shop model is more ethical/less exploitative, GW2’s or D3’s RMAH?

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

How you prevent players from buying gold to goldsellers ?

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

The exchange rate is the biggest problem currently and can also become the biggest solution against gold sellers. First of all, the actual price of gems shouldn’t matter too much because it’s being generated by Anet and is therefore free income for them, and they are actually limiting their profit because of how horrible the exchange rate is that no one will buy gems for any reason.

The gem cost and $->gem rate for buying items like bank slots, character slots, etc is comparable to other MMOs. Why do you think the gem-gold conversion will affect people buying those?

I don’t know what kind of controls Anet puts on gem-gold conversions, but I suspect that they are being very conservative with the ratio. Making gold cheaper in terms of real money might bring them more short-term profits but it is also going to cause in-game inflation that could have long-term negative effects.

As an extreme example, let’s say Anet sets the price of 1 gem to 1 gold. Now anyone with $10 to drop on the game suddenly has 800 gold. Fixed prices in the game become almost meaningless, because you can easily afford anything. Prices on the TP, on the other hand, skyrocket – if you’re not buying money, you’re not using the TP, because you can’t compete. Forget about getting the last few fine materials to finish this crafting tier, they’re 10 gold each. And the Dusk you hoped to buy? It’s been relisted with a price in the tens of thousands, putting it even farther out of reach of the people who aren’t spending additional money on the game. The non-RMT population leaves, and even the gold buyers trickle away as they find the only way to sustain their place in the economy is to keep pumping real money in.

Obviously that particular scenario is not going to happen (barring another decimal point error) but even smaller changes in the same direction will have an effect, so you can see why super-cheap gold is a bit of a concern for Anet.

Your logic denies the 9 year existence of CPPs EVE Online.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

How you prevent players from buying gold to goldsellers ?

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

My level 80 character has only 24 gold, and yet it would cost 56 gold for me to buy enough gems on the marketplace to open all the Black Lion chests I’ve accumulated

This is exactly what Anet wants – working as intended. They want to de facto force you to buy horrendously overpriced keys/gems because paying them 60$ to play their game isn’t enough – you also need to constantly spend more money just to access all the loot.

Every time I loot one of those crappy chests I puke a little on my keyboard and my anger towards the person that came up with this idea increases.

This kind of crap is fine and dandy in some Korean free2play game where it’s the only income source for the company operating the game – but in a fully priced game like GW2? Simply outrageous.

Anet could only conceivably sink any lower by implementing a full cash shop like Diablo 3 or certain f2p games.

As a 5 year veteran of Guild Wars (GWAMM, 50/50 5k+ hrs) and a traditionally staunch supporter of Arenanet…I am actually having a difficult time typing this….

GW2 has a full cash shop and Arenanet’s choice to arbitrarily set the value of Tyrian gold is more exploitative than blizzard ever thought of being.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

How you prevent players from buying gold to goldsellers ?

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

Alice looked around the room, the only exit was a doll-sized door. She read the label again, “Drink me!”

Coercion in gaming is a weird science/art, but it certainly exists. Arenanet routinely compares themselves to other developers, specificly in reference to how they are less coercive (think grind, gear treadmill) We bought the game so we could do the stuffs! We want the stuffs! What else is there but the stuffs! Arenanet thinks the Tyrian economy can survive us being able to spend cash on anything that exists in Tyria and I think it can. However, Arenanet does not think Tyria could survive us deciding what the cash value of anything in Tyria is.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

How you prevent players from buying gold to goldsellers ?

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

……..
How do you prevent players from buying gold from goldsellers? You ban the buyers (and sellers). How to identify them? That’s the question anet would like to get a good answer to (if they already don’t have it).

Game developers have been following that strategy for 20 some years and it hasn’t worked. ArenaNet did not decide to become a RMT of Tyrian gold on a whim. The industry is being overwhelmed by the arms race with RMT organized crime because players will without fail pay cash for ingame currency. Is it wise for Arenanet to continue failed strategies? Game developers as RMTs of their game’s currency is the new model.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

How you prevent players from buying gold to goldsellers ?

in Black Lion Trading Co

Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

I have to bring up to attention a little thing that in these “economic” threads is never mentioned:

Arenanet is the creator of the game, and the developer and manager of the game we are playing. They have all the rights to tweak and change the game, economy, object as they see fit. They decided GW2 to be a game based on microtransaction, and estabilished means to profit on this.

RMT companies don’t bring anything to the game. They abuse economy (the absence of a monthly fee makes this easier), creating inflation, that is bad in every game economy. The gold they create is in no way balanced with the demand, so it is basically a river with no dams. It flows and flows, and all have to be raised up to be competitive.

Who do you think is getting the precursors’ price so high? Players? Don’t be all so gullible, friends, if i were a RMT company i will go by any means to raise the most desirable items in the game as high as possible to create expectations and need of gold.

Blaming Arenanet for precursor price is ridiculous.

If i were Arenanet, i will cut it short with a little flag… “Soulbound on Acquire” on Precursors and means to exchange type, whoops, no more need of gold after the few ones that are on TP are sold. RMT companies will flee like there is a plague.

I think we all understand Arenanet is the GL. A discussion of how game developers behave as RMTs is inherently about ethics, what do they do when no one is looking or when they make the rules. I don’t know if we can hide from game developers as RMTs or put the genie back in the bottle.

While I agree that ArenaNet is heavily involved in the cash price of precursors I don’t think precursor’s being available for cash is wrong.

edit. As long as the player base directly sets the market value of Tyrian gold.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

(edited by Psientist.6437)

Who sets Gem prices?

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

Isn’t the current service fee an arbitrary buy and sell order gap? If Tyrian gold were traded by players, the buy and sell orders would ideally be very close, limiting speculation well within the range an algorithm could provide. The BLTP would still be entitled to a service fee and a service fee would indeed help limit speculation. The important thing to note about speculation is that the algorithm doesn’t eliminate it.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

How you prevent players from buying gold to goldsellers ?

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

At release the Black Lion Trading company posted buy and sell orders for Tyrian gold. Since then every change in the valuation of Tyrian gold has been the result of an algorithm designed to translate our behavior. The BLTP is the only entity posting buy and sell orders for Tyrian gold. Arenet is a Goldseller, Arenanet is a Real Money Trader and the BLTP is their proxy agent.
I do not intend Goldseller or RMT as an insult, only as a realistic description of what is happening. The role of RMT in gaming has changed: Blizzard’s RMAH, CCP’s PLEX, ArenaNet’s Gems and we must face those changes. The most important change is how these companies now treat GoldBuyers. Back when I was a kid and mmos where text based, game developers were understandably terrified of the effect RMT would have on their artfully crafted and poignantly offered imaginary worlds. Goldbuyers were the villain, but Goldbuyers had the cash and Goldsellers love cash. The RMT of mmo currencies and items is now a multibillion dollar industry/mafia. Arenanet and other developers have decriminalized GoldBuying, fundamentally changing the RMT environment and their role in the accurate and ethical valuation of their game’s currency.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

(edited by Psientist.6437)

How you prevent players from buying gold to goldsellers ?

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

Arenet is facing the same dilemma that every US state that decided to allow medical marijuana use faced: How to price the medicine now that they sold pot.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

How you prevent players from buying gold to goldsellers ?

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

Hello and thank you for not ignoring this so close to the end of your day. You do not need to argue but mustn’t you discuss this. You are a Goldseller.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

How you prevent players from buying gold to goldsellers ?

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

fare cash value

We talking bus, train, plane, taxi, ferry, or ocean liner fare?

I use balloons when I have hot air and zepellins when I have hydrogen, but to your point valuing Tyrian gold according to the cost of connecting here and there would indeed be as effective as challenging an arguement based on spellingk.

The discussion of Arenanet’s role as a RMT of Tyrian gold will continue because their actions as such will decide the company’s long term reputation. The discussion will be difficult and sometime panicked, but important and long-lived.

The best solution to the organized crime element of RMT is to allow players to set Buy and Sell orders. Yes you will need more Tyrian gold to buy gems, the black market more closely reflects the true market value of Tyrian gold than Arenanet. But trust me we will see much less organized crime. Make Tyria a fun enough place to adventure and Her? Heroes will consider a month’s worth of casual play the worthwhile cost of a character slot upgrade. Organized crime undercutting a dedicated player base is a myth.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

(edited by Psientist.6437)

How you prevent players from buying gold to goldsellers ?

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

I really want a new Koenigsegg. At the moment I cannot get one. I am an upstanding citizen and will not steal a Koenigsegg. I will hire someone to steal one from someone else and give it to me. If they weren’t so hard to get I wouldn’t NEED to have someone steal one. Oh, but would I want one if they were easy to get?

Your metaphor is flippant and misleading. At best, the statement would be appropriate from someone working for a company that did not sell its game’s currency. The moment Arenanet decided to sell Tyrian gold, a player’s decision to spend cash on Koenigsegg became a legitimate decision, even an appropriate decision. The only discussion now is how to arrive at a fare cash value for Koenigsegg.

Is Arenet’s official justification of the cash value of said Koenigsegg that Arenanet’s gold doesn’t kill kittens?

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

How you prevent players from buying gold to goldsellers ?

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

Yeah but similarly there is no way for you or me to change the exchange rate between the American Dollar and the New Zealand Dollar. Nevertheless the exchange rate is not completely controlled by either governments. One party can print more money and use other tactics to artificially inflate or deflate the economy, but at the end of the day it is the masses who determine what the exchange rate is.

That’s why I said that ArenaNet can control gem > gold conversion rates to some extent, but it cannot be completely controlled by them. Otherwise there is no need for a semi-free market. The reason you are able to buy gems for gold is not because ArenaNet is giving away free gems for a goldsink service; it’s because there are people who pay real money for gems and convert to gold. The supply is there.
…..

You misapply the real world mechanics of currency exchange to this discussion. World currency is traded with Buy and Sell orders and the comparative value of one currency to another is determined by customer demand. Institutions such as the US Federal Reserve set monetary policy for their country. Those decisions determine the strength of currencies within the world currency marketplace and within the borders of their country. Typically, G8 and first world countries legally oblige institutions such as the US Federal Reserve to publicly disclose all monetary policies, allowing for the open trading of currency Buy and Sell orders.

The BLTP currency exchange floor does not resemble real world currency exchange. Arenanet set the opening exchange value of Tyrian gold to real world currency and all deviation from that valuation is determined by an algorithm translating player gem buying habits. This is closer to a bond market than a currency exchange.

You do bring up a salient point, the number of people exchanging real world currency for Tyrian gold. They are putting such faith in Arenanet.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

Economics versus gameplay

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

To be considered currency, a coinage only requires the agreement of the coin holders to use it as such, in other words a marketplace. Tyrian NPCS reward/pay our Heroes with Karma and our Heroes then use it to purchase goods. It is distressing that a builder of Tyria does not consider Karma legitimate Tyrian currency. The Karma currency replaced the more traditional quest reward system giving us more freedom in adventuring but did not redefine the marketplace effect of NPC rewards.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

Discovering recipes from your bank vault.

in Crafting

Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

I agree whole heartedly. This new function is great for cooking but terrible for all other professions. If you level a disciplin through discovery there will be 100s of recipes left undiscovered that would only be a waste of materials to discover after leveling. At 400 leatherworking I do not need to see I can discover dozens of 25 reicpes.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human