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Way too much work.
Not responding to this comment, because I started by saying please don’t comment saying its alot of work. This was a post about the concept IF it could be implemented, not CAN it be implemented. It is designed to be an entire dungeon overhaul.
We have two threads for AC. Can we choose one to use please?
This isn’t really something I want to include in the changes to the current AC based on it being an overhaul of the entire dungeon system, with using AC as an example. Maybe I should rename the thread to something like Dungeon Overhaul Suggestion – AC to avoid confusion. EDIT – rename to avoid this confusion
I agree that making them too hard is counter productive, which is why theres tiers of difficulty based on how many bits you want to complete. Each event won’t be particularly hard. They will be of the same, similar difficulty to now. Yes, completing all the events will take longer then 1 path. However, it will take less time then completing them all individually as you only have to fight kohler, queen, cutscenes once.
Then, if you have completed all the events, its no more, difficult then before. However, it will require 30 seconds of communication (Ill take care of shield, ill burn adds with scepter. Ill protect from falling objects, last 2 dps down), or run with more shield takers to buff npcs etc.
The difficulty is only increased if you choose to skip events. Which is rewarded in the end.
For instance, I would expect that most people would skip kohler for the extra rewards, and possibly the spider. But most pugs would want the fire scepter to protect from mobs, and the turrets to remove the shield, gain buffs.
I would love for feedback, suggestions, additions, changes that you guys think based on this idea. But lets keep it positive and constructive (I dont mean dont hit my idea, but if you are going to criticise it, please give reasons and be open to discussion).
Hopefully you all like my idea, or it sparks someone elses idea, and we can help anet head towards a new dungeon system that is a vast improvement to what we currently have.
EDIT: Here is a TL;DR
Remove paths. Open all avenues throughout the dungeon, with events that provide methods to remove/counter boss mechanics. All final bosses combined into one uber boss. Boss can be killed straight up from start of dungeon, but VERY DIFFICULT. Or Event can be completed to remove/counter mechanics.
Dungeons will be almost impossible to complete without chat communication. New ‘split’ strategies with risk and rewards will be implemented. New rewards combining concepts of reward tokens, rare drops, aetherblade-esqu reskins and risk/reward achievements/benefits. Plus better NPC controls.
(edited by Raina.8642)
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Each of the turrets also has one of : A skill which drops 25 vulnerability on the boss, 25 might on the party, and the third has a wall of reflect skill which is ground targeted. (For the sake of this dungeon, and possibly a permanent game change reflects will work like in real life. If the boss shoots a projectile at 45 degrees into the wall of reflect, it will shoot out 45 degrees away from the wall, hitting anything in its path. So this means that a well-placed wall can massacre the boss, but if he moves he’s unlikely to hit himself. Plus if there’s an ally on that line, it hits that ally. If this is too difficult to implement, wall of absorb. We don’t want to boss trivialised by reflects)
TZARK
The Tzark path provides an item which creates an environment weapon – ghostly shield with 5 slots of the shield that warmaster grast currently uses, which allows the player to protect their team from the falling roof. The roof is more telegraphed then now, so it’s easier to move out of. But the turrets can be destroyed if not protected, and so can players stuck/immobilized by potential spider spawns/stunned by gravelling’s.
KOHLER
If Kohler is defeated, he agrees that the grave lings are a threat, and sends 1 of each elite ghost to help you. So 1 warrior, Mesmer, necro, monk, mage, and ranger. Not a huge benefit, but still a slight bonus to help you out on a random path.
FINAL BOSS FIGHT
Removed defiance from the boss. As long as the shield has any, he cannot be stunned. (I’m calling it a shield, but I believe it’s technically phase shifted). However, if it is down he can be stunlocked as long as the party is capable of doing it. (Roof falling down, and mob spawns are not boss skills so these will happen regardless of stunlock)
DUNGEON FAILURE
All NPC’s are unressable. So if any of them die before completing their task you must fight the final boss without their mechanics. They now have follow/wait/return to base commands so that you don’t have to look after them in a fight, but still need to escort them. This can be changed midfight as well, so if they are losing health you can tell them to run away by talking to them.
Waypoints are removed. Wipes are punished by the restart of the entire dungeon. Res orbs are useable only whilst someone is still alive.
OPTIONS
So now, with this dungeon, you can run straight past spider queen, through the tunnels and to the boss if you want. You will have to fight a boss that has a huge aoe scream, lots of spawns, reduced damage, and random falling roof. If you are skillfull, good, and work as a team this is intended to be balanced that it’s killable in long duration fight, with very high risk. However, 99% of parties should not be able to do this, and even full pro’s should have trouble. However, run all events and he becomes a short fight that as long as you have people thinking about the mechanics, using the tools provided successfully will succeed. A completely un-organised group will need have a struggle on the boss fight, promting good team communication. Nowhere near impossible, but the chances of succeeding a run where you drop an LFG, and run through the entire dungeon without saying a word are next to zero.
With a full party it should be relatively easy to complete if successfully clearing all events as you could essentially have 1 of each party member as a shielding ghost, scepter killer, and one on each turret, and have the help of the ghostly ‘elites’ to kill the boss, which would trivialise all his mechanics.
This introduces huge strategic elements. Most parties will not rush the boss as it is unlikely to succeed, so it comes down to which events do you do or not do? Do you run all the events as a 5 man party, or split to save time? “Speed Clears”, similar to the way they ended up in GW1 was how can you optimally split your party to complete each event simultaneously as quickly as possible. But this was obviously riskier.
Skips also become riskier, as anyone who dies needs to be ressed where they are, possibly requiring the mobs to be killed by 2 or 3 players depending on how many don’t make it.
REWARDS
Daily reward for the dungeon should be increased to 5 gold, and 200 tears of Ascalon. Each run (non daily rewards) returns one Ghostly Covenant, a new token which [insert challenging, but not ridiculous number here] of which can be traded for a coloured reskin of the Ascalonian Weapons (Think TA Aetherblade weapons). These weapons are also rare, random drops. Add an achievement for completing the dungeon without completing certain events (like Queens Gauntlet Gambits). For each event not completed when the boss is killed, the party gets 1 additional Ghostly Covenant.
Based on Regina’s recent comments about summing up suggested changes for each individual dungeon or path, I wanted to throw this suggestion out into the community. I (obviously) think its a fantastic idea, but would love to get some feedback on it from the community.
Please noone comment on the difficulty of adjusting the design of dungeons to this extent. It is a major overhaul, and so I doubt it will be pursued as long as the current stance on dungeons is maintained, but one can hope.
The structure and concept of this have been applied, and explained for AC. I have some ideas for the other dungeons, and if feedback is positive I might expand on them and post those ideas. However for now I just wanted to get feedback on this ‘template’.
Currently some of the main complaints (outside of the trivial nature of boss fights) are the pointlessness of trash mobs, the annoyance of NPC’s, the stupidity of stacking, and the tediousness of rerunning the beginning portions of dungeons in order to complete all 3 ‘daily paths’ or two in the case of easier paths.
So here goes my suggestion. It begins by making dungeons legitimately “explorable”. There are no closed gates, no restricted content based on event completion. For all intents and purposes, you can run straight past every boss/event/mob in the dungeon, to the final boss and kill it if you wish. However, to do this would be INSANELY difficult, as mechanics are implemented to the boss fight that are counterable through successful discovery and completion of sections within the dungeon. Each boss, or event within the dungeon either removes abilities, or defenses or obstacles from the final boss, or provides avenues to overcome them, making it easier, reducing in difficulty from near impossible to mechanically fun, but doable.
So here is my suggestion for AC:
FINAL BOSS
There is one final boss for the dungeon in the howling king room. He has the summoned adds and scream of P1 boss. The Ghost Eaters shield from p2 boss (reduced to -50% damage), and the random kd aoe’s from path 3 boss. Double his health, and slightly increase his toughness, so he isn’t such an instant melt. No more “select path”, the purpose of the dungeon is to determine HOW you fight the boss, not WHICH boss to fight.
START & GRAVELING BURROW
The start is the same, with the breeder and escorting NPCs to priory camp. Then the changes begin. As I said, all paths are open, so you can take the ‘story’ route around the back to spider queen, or run down the stairs past the graveling burrow. However, the burrow is spawned either way (has more HP, and spawns elites similar to later burrows). These monsters run towards the spider room, and have no leash. Kill the burrow to prevent spawning of this, or skip and run around/through. Killing the burrow needs to be more than just dropping an Ice Bow 4 on it. So probably 6 or 8 times the health of a current burrow. Easy enough to kill, and only about 30 seconds with 5 people. But enough of a challenge to make it an actual choice as to whether yo kill it or not.
SPIDER QUEEN
Fight remains as is, but door after it is open, traps are gone. As long as spider queen is alive, spiders randomly spawn at parts of the dungeon. On you. Occasionally some of the stronger TA like spiders which are actually problematic.
NPC’s
After this room, you have the option of pursuing the events on hodgins, dessas, and tzarks paths, except the 4 burrows at the end of tzarks path in the ghost eaters room, and the second scepter event as that is the only room which has coinciding event and both these events are semi redundant.
HODGINS
Completing the hodgins event gives an environmental weapon which allows the summoning of the firefields that hodgins currently summons at the end of the path. You can kill the spawns through normal means, or try and ignore them. Or you can complete the event, and have them instantly die through tactical field placement.
DETHA
Completing the detha events(the trapping now provides a power source from the gravelings, not bait for the sake of lore). The traps become carry-able objects, which can be installed at the final boss room, and then become turrets similar to those at Tequatl. Each has a skill which removes the shield (and all stacks) on a 10 second CD. The shield is similar to Tequatls in that it builds up stacks to full power. He starts with the shield, and it takes 1 hit to remove it. It builds up stacks every 5 seconds until it has 5 stacks, then the shield recharges. So it only needs to be shot once every 25 seconds, with the skills on a 10 second CD to keep it off, however similar to Mai Trin, each stack reduces damage taken a little bit. 5% each stack, with 50% reduction when at full stacks.
I don’t mind the loss of transformations, but I would like to see all transformations treated as a kit, where you can jump in and out of them at will.
Maybe have a time limit, like you have access to Lich Form for 30 seconds. Jump in and out as desired for 30 seconds. Then 180cd or however long it is.
In big events like this, variety>quantity and strength. Torment and Confusion are rarely at cap, so you will be getting ~100% of the damage on those while possibly getting about 15% out of your bleeds. Sigils of Torment are good for adding condition damage. Epidemic is your bread and butter, though, as that makes all of the worthless bleeds everyone else puts on the adds use your condition damage on whatever they spread to.
These are husks. Unless your group has great pulls, youll be on your own, or one of two on the husk. So its actually worthwhile. Plus, unless idiots joined up to condi group, you shouldn’t have worthless bleeds/other condis stacked up.
Having said all that, would still run sigil of corruption on an offhand, with bursting and strength as the primary weapons. Runes of aristochracy combined with sigil of strength will be lots of might, and im not 100% sure about reaching/breaching that cap, but still would prioritise might, and corruption. I believe bursting increases your condition damage, not your condition stat.
The damage potential for conditions and zerker isnt that different. This is evidenced in solo runs, with comparable times. The issue is clearly relating to the cap in groups, and the fact that poison and burn can only have one application per target. And burn offers significant improvements to condi DPS, in the realm of 1.5kdps at decent levels of condition damage.
I threw these numbers out in another thread, using very basic maths. Comparing like, for like, so we are assuming optimal group situations (in an alternate world where conditions are capped at 25 per individual, and everything is seperate) but otherwise might stacking etc is the same. I calculated that it is quite reasonable to be having over 3k condition damage from rabid gear (all exotic except accessories), aristocracy runes, 25 might, base trait stats, food/nourishment, corruption, banner of strength and bursting. Essentially, the set up you would have if you took the condi war solo build into a group. Could be higher if we assumed external supply of might, and so took runes of undead, but lets keep it simple.
3200ish Condition Damage
25 stacks of bleed, burning, and 7 stacks of torment. Its about 7.3k DPS. And this is on a stationary boss, so torment is single damage. The current DPS war outputs if memory serves about 11k dps. On a target with 25 vuln, and you having 25 might, even with a low power build you should be hitting between 3-4k dps (no maths on this, but it seems reasonable. feel free to correct).
So here is a condition warrior, hitting at basically 10/11k dps, and has a massive amount of survivability courtesy of rabids toughness spec.
Side notes about personal opinions. I think vulnerability should improve condition damage, because to me it makes sense that with weakened armor they would get inflicted with worse bleeds, more poison, the burns would hurt more, etc. You bring that into play, and condition damage per second is (wow, very convenient) OVER 9000!
Plus, I would like to see anet bring out a stat set, that is rampagers with primary condition. So we actually have a solid condition contender to zerker that doesnt build toughness. Hitting like a knight, whilst condition like a rabid.
But condition capping needs to be solved first.
They used to give 2 initiative back when initiative recovered slower, and required more specific traiting to gain recovery rate.
Anet increased initiative recovery, and reduced the corresponding abilities/traits so that it buffed low initiative traited thieves, and didnt effect traited ones. Having said that, I personally dont bother with them
I do a similar rotation, however if there is a S/F(D) ele in the party, and they drop a longer duration firefield I pop a couple more. Ideally you want 8 blasts pre fight to get your might up. Ele can usually pop 4, so you want to pop 4 in their firefield. Big ol Bomb, healing turret, Acid Blast & I pop my shield (because I carry P/S). Then about 10 seconds into the fight, I pop the firefield again and drop supply drop into it, along with any other cooled down blasts. And rotate the firefield whenever its available with any blasts available (usually only 2). Its worth putting out incase anyone else has any blast finishers.
The other trick, if your party has abysmal might stacking but a banner is drop the fire bomb, pick up a banner, use 5. Its a free, low CD blast finisher. But requires a stop in DPS for about 1.5 seconds.
Slight thread necro, but given the announced ranger updates from last friday, and I know that we haven’t heard anything about 6 of the classes. But, assuming they go through as is, and all other 6 classes stayed the same does this change the “maths” here.
The (approximately) 10% damage boost on a sword ranger, plus the additional benefits from the signets as good (untraited) options.
Also, a slightly different question but are the greatsword buffs significant enough to put it on par with Sword, or is it still a subpar weapon set?
I’m assuming that its impossible to know without the eventual factual numbers but my expectation is that:
With the 10% damage buff, sword rangers will be a viable, on par option for dungeons and not be a net DPS loss.
Im expecting that we will see alot more greatsword rangers, however they still won’t be up to the DPS of a sword ranger. I also think that GS ranger cannot maintain cripple as effectively as sword ranger, and therefore the 100% cripple uptime won’t be a reasonable assumption on GS
I typically pug most dungeon paths at Oceanic Times (NA servers) around 7-10pm Sydney/Australia times. And I don’t end up with that level of abysmal pugs, so I do feel for how much of a struggle it must be with that level of incompetent pugs.
Having said that, ping me anytime and you can come with some of my pugs. Most paths end up being completed at reasonable (non speed clear) speeds. Eg about 50 minutes for all 3 AC. 40 for CM. 30 for TA. 25 for both SE, CoF 50 CoE.
It really does help that I run a mightstack ele for pretty much every path, and unless the pug prestacks I stack might on the boss so usually hanging around 20 stacks for all fights, and a decent amount of vuln.
I see alot of people posting about these ‘grief kickers’ or people kicking. But in 2 years of GW2 I have had it happen to me twice. And I pug about 95% of the time. Therefore I am forced to conclude that those people regularly being kicked are doing something to deserve it.
And theres often something quite simple. I was running fractals with a friend the other day, and a pug was being a bit of a kitten. We wiped in one bit, and he started blaming the way I played guardian. My mate opted to kick him for the comments he made, which would honestly have not helped out. I elected not to back up his kick request, told him to drop it, and said to the bloke in team chat something along the lines of ‘next time you want to tell me how to play guardian, either get your own, or gtfo’. He laughed it off, but didn’t try and tell me anything again.
On the flip side, there are people who make kitteny annoying comments, and I just decide I cant be bothered dealing with them and kick them. And I am not afraid of any anet sanctions for doing this because I believe that this is the purpose of the kick system.
Anyway, my point is I think the vast majority of people complaining about getting grief kicked probably deserve it due to behaviour and attitudes prior to the run. And based on your responses on this thread, with an entitled attitude and griefing is only a problem when it hits you, I’m gonna go with your part of this majority.
With 100b for example you hit 8 times. If you have 4 enemies in front of you, you might hit 1-3 for the first hit, 2-4 with the 2nd hit, and as such it will seem like you hit all 4. But each hit only hit a max of 3.
Hi guys,
I am looking for a guild that regularly does dungeon speed clears in Oceanic times (AEST 7pm – 11ish).
I have all classes, 80, zerker, and can run most meta builds.
Ive bought 2 full sets of CM armor, doing it the proper way most of the runs. Admittedly havent done it in the past several months since I have 8 80’s and no character still wanting any CM armor/weapons, so some of this may nolonger be accurate, but it used to work.
For the asuran path, remember that a lot of the golem pieces can actually be blown up from upstairs, about half including the ones in the far room. The others can easily be gotten without dying by (and these are characters with personal experience, im sure others can get them too) mesmer, warrior, guardian, thief. Without a fight. Next skip to shamus to the barn, have 1 person watch cutscene whilst the others run up the stairs. Kill all the rangers, including the silvers, then just smash the boss. Couple of easy mobs (watch condition removals, and reflects and its easy) and then theres bloody victoria. Again an easy boss as you can track her invisible movements based on her boss icon on the minimap. Couple of easy mobs, skip up scaffolding to the right and into the underground room to line of sight the last couple of mobs. Run through the final section and then boss. That last run is the only bit thats not pug friendly, unless you have a thief who shadow refuges the whole party.
Path 2 is in my opinion tactically the easiest. Its all about where to fight people without pulling the mobs. I haven’t seen strifes video for CM but im pretty sure his would be on the mark.
Path 3 the hardest part is the first boss with a pug because of his perma knock back and ignoring of reflect. Especially if you miss-time your stunbreak so it ‘fails’ due to flying in the knockback motion. After that its a couple of simple mobs, which you can pull out of the room, or skip. Trick room, pulable boss, traps (which can be solod from this side by a ranger with 1500 range), and again under room and run.
This dungeon is in my opinion easier then alot of other dungeons BECAUSE the challenge is combat based. There are pretty much no puzzles. However, in that lies the problem. The challenge is combat based, so in an unorganised team that doesnt have the things required to reduce that challenge its hard. As opposed to dungeons where a simple trick makes the entire thing so much easier and it becomes about abusing that simple trick.
In my opinion it depends on when they do it, and what level/what dungeon they are doing it in.
And for those saying that its a ‘free’ levelling method, well its actually not. If you miss the death of the boss once, thats 40 silver missed out on, if you are transfering at the end of the dungeon mid boss fight you dont get the boss’s drop (15 silver), and dungeon cash rewards are scaled based on level. So if you level from 20-80 via dungeons, you will need to complete approximately (60/0.7 = 85 dungeons). If each one you miss out on between 10-40 silver (which is an accurate value, especially when you consider you cant buff the silver drops from bosses via omnoms/gildeds since you arent 80 yet), lets round to approximately 15 silver lost a run (id call that a low value, but lets go with it). Therefore 85 * 15 = 12.75 gold. Last time I tried, I could probably get 5 crafts to 400 with that much gold, in far less time. With a more ‘contributory’ value assuming that players are swapping when bosses are at 20% HP give or take, players will lose boss gold (15-20 silver depending on omnoms/gildeds) + from dungeon reward. Probably an average of 25 silver a dungeon, meaning lost cash from swapping is in the realm of 21 gold. Is it still worth it?
TLDR:
- Running on a low level character means less cash value from dungeon rewards
- Assuming a conservative 15s lost a run, and 85 runs from 20-80 will be over 10g
- Assuming a more realistic 25s lost per run, will be over 20g
- Crafting may be a more initial bank ‘shock’ but not necessarily more costly in the long run.
I think the paying 4s to retrait is fine. And you can get access to a retrainer at any time wihtout losing your location by going to wvw (and then going back to your starting map via character select). Its not a huge deal, however I don’t think introducing a consumable to reset traits available for 5s is a big deal. Its a 40% more expensive retrait, but quicker, and easier to use.
I reckon they could turn pets into something more useful if they turned them into 4 (F1-F4 skills) for various pets. And when you press F1-F4 you get the effect of that pet. Could customize effectively by selecting which 4 pets you bring along (similar to now) and that their effects can be used to debuff enemies, buff party, heal, divert, etc. Creating a variety of useful options, that provide the pet thought without a reliance on an AI controlled character for a significant portion of your DPS.
I have an 80 ranger I never touch, a significant reason of which is that pets seemed lame. If the pets were more pro-active, and provided a more significant element of your playstyle I think rangers would be way more fun, and effective.
Personally I don’t see the point…
Are you saying that these specialties will gain more stat points to spend?
In which case its just adding another tier of levelling, and will cause unbalance and more grind (no thanks).
Are you saying that these specialties will force a character to take more stat points of one line, and less of another? (In other words, a forced allocation of trait points, and stat allocation)? Kinda seems a waste?
The only thing I like about it is that it gives you ‘specialised’ skills for that style of warrior. But are these replacing current potential skills? In which case i’d rather just see them added (and tbh, am semi expecting to see added if/when any expansions get released).
How did they get credit on both toons? As far as I am aware they would get credit on the toon that the boss was killed under. And personally, I dont think it is that game breaking.
However, if by swapping mid fight they are getting the 60 tokens on 2 characters at once then that is a bug and needs to be adressed.
I do and I dont… It was so great in gw1 because it made a spike larger, and harder to catch for monks, and also pressured if it wasnt removed due to the -20% heal reduction. In gw2, since there isnt so much of a designated healer class in the teams the -20% hp reduction wouldnt be as necessary for the ‘spike’ part and the -20% heal, well poison sort of has that tacked onto it so having both would just be ridiculous, which means to implement this means poison would have to be nerfed…
However as to Axe needing deepwound, I think the only problem with axe is that I feel its outclassed by greatsword… and as to that problem its more that 100b is way too powerful, and comparatively everything else is mediocre at best, which leads to it feeling like axe deserves deep wound.
If your going to go about the scepter part in ac part 1, that is beyond simple. Bring stability, bring a speed boost, bring a condition removal. Run up to the scepter, grab it, dodge roll out, and run away under speed boost. Under 8 seconds of stability I can get 2, and then get far enough away to break combat, before trying for the last 2.
Plus I dont know what you are complaining about, the scavengers are easy enough to dodge if you pay attention, and if you cant dodge well enough then bring stability.
Kind of an exploit/scam along these lines is if you have a group of 5, and 2 are friends/guildies they can fight with the pug to the end boss, and at the end boss they have the power to kick everyone but themselves from the dungeon, and bring in friends.
Happened to me today in AC explore, cleared to the final boss and got kicked from the group kicked me from the party, and the other pug. Guild tag was OMG on IoJ server, and I sent in a report. The group also kicked the other pug, who was luckily the instance ‘owner’ so everyone got kicked out, but I am absolutely furious that such an easy scam/exploit/bug can be inplace.
There needs to be a way to counter being kicked from a group, like everyone has to vote. And biggest thing is that there should be no kicking once the final boss is activated, especially since all of the dungeon rewards are condensed into a final reward now.
Dynamic Events/NPC bugs.
So alot of DE’s or Skill point NPC’s bug out across different servers and get stuck until theres a server reset. My suggestion to solve this problem would be to put a timer in for all events. If there is no update to the events conclusion within an hour from the event first triggering it deactivates, and retriggers when whatever causes the event to trigger is triggered.
I believe the reason that there are so many more obvious bugs then there was in gw1 is because the bugs here effect everyone, and stick around. There were a lot of bugs in the original that were never a huge deal because people just reset the instance if it was there, and generally they only happen 5 or 10% of the time. But when you have an event that triggers once and hr, after 2 or 3 days even 5% of the time odds are its bugged up, and will be stuck until reset. This solves that.
On a similar note, having a timer on NPC’s such that if they are not interacted with in the space of 1 hr they reset to their auto spawn location.
At least this gives a short term ‘solution’ whilst they can fix the bug and for some of the issues will fully solve it.
I dont know much about sPvp, but can your armor break there like it can in pve? Hitting them all at once isnt hard, he probably popped haste to get em out quickly, or the critical strikes trait that causes haste, or the sigil that has a chance to cause haste. Otherwise I dunno, because I never hit that high as a thief, although I havent explored pvp much yet.
It also creates a poison field which releases area weakness whenever you blast finish the area (Ie Shortbow skill 2: [Cluster Bomb])
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