(edited by Raine.1394)
Feign muted interest standing over her shoulder while she’s on the character select screen. Ask to see her characters! The server will be listed with other character info as the last item in the list, bottom left of the screen.
Yeah, it’s the DE’s that you need for leveling XP. They are spread out through the game, but there are 4 or so areas where I camp out for a good 5 levels each done very quickly. Also recommend you invest in +10% food as every little bit helps. Add in crafting if you have the mats/gold and the leveling will be very fast.
As with most threads here you can safely ignore the L2P posts and certainly anyone designating themselves as a ‘Vet’ player who is unfamiliar with the combat system issues with GW2. In GW2 we have Berzerker armor, but certainly no berzerker archetype professions. More often than not you’ll see berzerker’s here running like a sissy from a fight rather than to a fight if their RezMe flag isn’t already flying.
It is more about combat system design than it is about player skill. It is a problem in GW2 combat and it is one of those glaring problems that you know in your gut is just not right. A melee character built for melee should be able to be played in melee range. It’s also an issue that arises out of the abandonment of the trinity. I’m not saying that the trinity is needed. What I’m saying is that combat in GW2 needs to be given more thought than it has to date. It needs to make sense and not leave you scratching your head. I mean if melee is actually designed to play ranged, then we have a problem. I don’t personally have an an answer for this, but then neither does the L2P crowd. It remains a problem in GW2 combat.
BTW, you can take the ‘enjoy’ out of your definition of forced grinds. Forced grinds are forced whether you enjoy them or not. There are people who enjoy grinding and that’s why we have games like WoW which are successful with vertical progression and a gear grind. But I don’t understand your distinctions. I get that by your definition we currently have a forced grind with Ascended gear and FotM. But, you seem to be drawing a distinction of some kind between what GW2 is and what a forced grind is. Are you saying that there is or will be no forced grind, or are you saying that they will give up the current forced grind and conveniently locate treadmills throughout the game? Wouldn’t that just be distributing the forced grind? It’s not clear to me what you are saying about the game and forced grinds.
If you enjoy it, it’s not forced, it’s just grind. Forced is, by definition, involuntary and the product of an outside force. You would be the first person I ever met who enjoys things against their will….
You are under no obligation to get ascended gear right now. The only reason to get those items is if you want to farm fotm in the first place and they are a by-product of farming fotm. Which means you are still not forced to do anything you don’t want to.
The rest of the gear in the game is entirely based on choice which is pretty much the opposite of forced and there is no reason to believe that once the actual progression comes it’ll be any different.
Again, one’s enjoyment of a grind has no bearing on whether it’s forced. If you must do it to continue playing the game, it is forced. I’m sorry but you really can’t get around this one. You can say that I’m free to leave the game, but you can’t say I’m free to stay in a game with vertical progression if I don’t want to do the grind. Grindy games don’t work that way—I know as I played WoW for years and came to GW2 to get away from the grind.
You qualify the need to get Ascended gear as well you should. Anet has already said the the changes brought in with ascended gear will apply to other parts of the game moving forward. Ascended gear, after all, will simply be one tier in successive tiers of ever more powerful gear. That’s what vertical progression is and they said in the AMA that moving forward we would have vertical progression.
Once again, vertical progression “progresses” by periodically raising the power level of players. I explained it in detail in previous posts in this thread. With a gradual increase in power level, there will come a point at which, in order to continue playing the game, I will need to hop on a treadmill to acquire the gear at a higher power level. I don’t want to grind so it will be forced if I want to continue playing the game. Again there is no way around this. I’m free to quit, but I’m not free to continue playing if I don’t grind. If you disagree, then define vertical progression in a way that doesn’t lead to a forced gear grind. Absent that other definition, which doesn’t exist by the way, you will be forced to agree with me.
I wasn’t referring to the power difference between two points. I was referring to the fact that working on getting two pieces of gear every few months or so is not comparable as farming a full set (both for pve and pvp) every month.
Also ascended is only required by fractals to play more fractals (at least at the moment). You and I can still clear all the remaining content with masterwork gear if we wanted to. So right now presuming that ascended is preventing you from being able to complete activities in the game is just that : presuming.
I don’t mean to brush you the wrong way and if I have then I apologize, I have seen quite a few posts from yourself across the forums and you come across to me as a decent and level-headed person, but I am simply stating my opinion on the matter. I cannot help it if sometimes they differ.
No offense taken. I understand that rational, well-intended people will have differences on issues. I’ve even posted in support of a view that you put forward if I recall correctly. I try my best to keep the issues separate from personalities and focus on the issues while acknowledging the value of each of the people.
Cheers
My main is fully geared out. I haven’t put any money into the game. Can someone please explain to me how another player willing to spend $2k has an advantage over me?
Once you’ve earned your gear and the other person has paid their cash, neither would have any advantage over the other. Paying cash to advance in a game is what people call pay to win. Some people are fine with pay to win, others object to it on principle.
No, I am dealing solely with vertical progression and claiming that it is a forced treadmill that you must ride in order to maintain a power level necessary to play the game. Let me give you a hint in arguing against my position. Describe vertical progression in a way that shows it is not a forced grind that must be performed in order to continue playing the game. In the post above you have made an assertion saying my position is wrong. You haven’t shown me where my position is wrong. Worse yet, you’ve resorted to ad hominem by calling me a “bomb thrower”. What you haven’t done is provide a reasoned argument showing that vertical progression is not a gear grind treadmill.
Let’s see…
Forced grind: You have to farm dungeon Xxx at least once a day(if possible 2), you do not enjoy running dungeon Xxx all the time, but it’s the only way to obtain Xxx gear(aka, the next progression step) thus you feel forced.
GW2: You have 3 distinct ways of obtaining gear. WvWvW for karma, dungeons for tokens, open world farming for crafted(and an additional gold making for bought). You can do any of those 3 things to reach your goal. They also happen to be 90% of the content outside spvp. If every single one of those options feels like “forced grind” to you, you are clearly playing the wrong game.
At this very moment we have no reason to believe ascended gear will be locked into one aspect. Actually, the devs specifically said that there will be multiple ways to obtain it and that they will take it out of fotm when they have the whole thing good to go.
BTW, you can take the ‘enjoy’ out of your definition of forced grinds. Forced grinds are forced whether you enjoy them or not. There are people who enjoy grinding and that’s why we have games like WoW which are successful with vertical progression and a gear grind. But I don’t understand your distinctions. I get that by your definition we currently have a forced grind with Ascended gear and FotM. But, you seem to be drawing a distinction of some kind between what GW2 is and what a forced grind is. Are you saying that there is or will be no forced grind, or are you saying that they will give up the current forced grind and conveniently locate treadmills throughout the game? Wouldn’t that just be distributing the forced grind? It’s not clear to me what you are saying about the game and forced grinds.
(edited by Raine.1394)
Vertical progression isn’t a problem in itself. It’s all about how steep the curve it.
Right now it’s just a summer hike at the bottom of the mountain and no way near an actual ascension ( no pun intended).
Groovy, I want you to know that I worked very hard in two of my posts above to show that it is vertical progression, not the power difference between any two points in the progression series, that is the problem. I take full responsibility for my failure to adequately demonstrate this. I want you to know I blame no one but myself.
There’s good points on both side of the argument here.
For me, personally, I see no foul play in letting real life money buy gems which allows one to buy gold.
Essentially people have two resources to purchase things with: real life money or time (I.e. making money in game instead of using real life money).
I can totally see how some wouldn’t like this feature, I just don’t share that feeling. I have little money to spare in real life but lots of time at the moment, so I enjoy spending more time instead of money. Time is a resource I have at the moment, money isn’t.
I would be of your same opinion, if this didn’t meant that they’re pushing gems selling in shady ways, like lowering drop rates.
And YES, this game is pay 2 win.
Certainly not in a heavy way like many korean MMOs; It may be ligh but it still is pay 2 win.Can you please tell all of us what you can buy with cash that you can’t obtain in game?
The problem is, is people think that paying cash to get something faster than grinding/farming for it is pay to win. This is absolutely not the case. Pay to win refers to games in which a cash shop is designed to offer players items that tend to be substantially more powerful than ANY item found in game. A great example of this is most private servers of competitive mmo’s. They run a system that enticing people to spend money by rewarding players that do pay, ridiculously overpowered gear/skills. Being able to buy something that literally -everybody- can potentially get, does not make Gw2 remotely similar to a pay to win system.Some of you play word games with the “P2W” definition to support your case. The fact of the matter is that since GW2 does not (yet) have any items that are “substantially more powerful than any item found in the game,” then the fact that you can attain the highest achievements in the game by “buying” them does, in fact, make it the “P2W” equivalent in GW2. Just because people can’t decide what other name to call it does not mean the term does not apply.
Bottom line, If a game is all about progression and achievement and a player is able to attain the end game achievement by paying for it, instead of earning it by progressing to it, then the game is in fact P2W. You can deny it until your face turns blue, but it does not change the fact.
Buying gold is not pay to win. At all. And I offered a general idea of what pay to win is, and you argued it, without offering an alternative. Gw2 is in no way pay to win. You do not pay for “power”. You pay for time saved. There is a huge difference. Again though, name me one thing you can buy with cash that you cannot obtain in game. This is the second time I’m asking, and nobody will answer that. If you can tell me, the pay to win argument will become valid. Until then, it makes no sense.
OK, let me answer you. You ask what you can buy with cash that you can’t obtain by playing the game. Nothing, beyond any gem store only items and they don’t increase your power level. But, that has nothing to do with pay to win. Pay to win is using cash to avoid the effort involved in playing the game. It is precisely to arrive at the highest power level by using cash to avoid the in-game path. Your distinction about time/effort saved by using cash is the pay-to-win everyone is talking about. It’s using cash to acquire gear rather than playing the game to acquire gear. It’s a pretty straightforward concept.
Ok, your argument, I understand. I happen to think that “win” in an mmo is relative. I can gear up characters by spending gold, others can use money. The money route offers nothing to one player, that another can’t achieve by playing. This is why I’m having trouble seeing why using money converted to gold is really pay to win. I think “pay to compete” or “pay for convenience” are more viable phrases for such a model. I actually appreciate the fact that if I have to work 70 hours a week, I have an option to maintain a competitive level of play. I can see why some people would consider this model pay to win, but in execution, everyone has the same shot at being successful. If items were locked to a specific “account subscription type” I would totally agree, but, Gw2 doesn’t run based on that model.
I agree with you that “win” in an MMO is a relative term. That’s why I would phrase keeping up with vertical progression, using cash, as pay-to-lose, as you haven’t actually gained anything through vertical progression.
Let me help you with understanding vertical progression. Vertical progression “progresses” by periodically increasing the power level of players, usually through stats on gear. Before the treadmill all players are at power level X. A new tier is introduced and all players hop on the treadmill. When they hop off they are at power level Y. Meanwhile the environment has assumed power level Y, usually through new content. So, before and after the treadmill the players are at the same relative power to each other and the environment. There has been no actual progress. No one has gone anywhere. And, we have been promised that moving forward we will have, not Ascended gear, but vertical progression. We can all agree on that from the AMA.
But, what of the player who didn’t hop on the treadmill? He is now at a relative disadvantage to all players who went on the treadmill ride. If Anet stays true to form, he would be able to buy gear, right? I mean the best gear in the game, minus two rings, is currently available through gold. That would have to change in order for there to be no pay-to-win. Because it involves a treadmill that goes nowhere, I would still argue it’s pay-to-lose.
By your view point and logic you can call any type of progression as a treadmill that both storyline and cleaning events to do other events. EVERY GAME by your view has a treadmill. A true Treadmill only can happen after YEARS of add on and gear upgrades. At best your over exaggeration what is happening now and agen your worlds are less then that of the makers of the game because you have no stack in this game.
Where did they say that you could buy rings with gold? And where did they say where you could no longer get rings with out running any events? Sry at best your being a bomb thrower making baseless clams to a failing idea that has been abandoned by most ppl trying to MARK the game as being a treadmill type only.
No, I am dealing solely with vertical progression and claiming that it is a forced treadmill that you must ride in order to maintain a power level necessary to play the game. Let me give you a hint in arguing against my position. Describe vertical progression in a way that shows it is not a forced grind that must be performed in order to continue playing the game. In the post above you have made an assertion saying my position is wrong. You haven’t shown me where my position is wrong. Worse yet, you’ve resorted to ad hominem by calling me a “bomb thrower”. What you haven’t done is provide a reasoned argument showing that vertical progression is not a gear grind treadmill.
Is a bought level 80 better than my hard-won level 80? It isn’t, so I don’t really mind. If someone wants to spend hundreds of dollars for a shortcut and some shiny pixels, it’s fine for me, as long as he does not have a stat-wise advantage over me.
That is where Ascended Gears comes ; they represent power and you litterally need hundreds of gold to get them, while someone can get them much faster with real money. While you will be trying to get the needed gold, those people will be more powerful than you in areas like WvW. Isn’t that unfair?
Legendary weapons are, I have to admit, only skins. Yet, those are a main end-game goal for players ; is it really fair, to sell them this way? And is it really profitable for Arenanet, since crafting a Legendary Weapon was probably my long term goal and it became worthless to my eyes as soon as they started popping on the Trading Post?
Acsended gear barely has a stat difference lol, your acting like ascended gear will give us an extra 300k health and make us god mode) LOL. Ascended gear isnt NEEDED unless you want to do fractals.
You do realize that what they added with Lost Shores was vertical progression, right? They committed to it in the AMA and I provided the quotes in a post above. Vertical progression “progresses” by periodically raising the power level of players, usually through stats on gear. Vertical progression can be described by an integer series 1,2,3,4,5,n where each integer represents a tier of gear where there is an increase in power level described by the integer value. So, the difference between 1 and 2 is very small and can probably be ignored. However, if the progression continues, and that’s what vertical progression does, eventually there will be a point where the choice is hop on the treadmill or stop playing the game. Right? a power level 1 player is just not going to be able to play a power 5 level game.
It really doesn’t matter how much difference there is between any two steps of the progression. What matters is that there is an unavoidable treadmill now and you will eventually be forced to grind, or pay cash, to continue playing the game, solely due to the increase in power level that comes with vertical progression.
There’s good points on both side of the argument here.
For me, personally, I see no foul play in letting real life money buy gems which allows one to buy gold.
Essentially people have two resources to purchase things with: real life money or time (I.e. making money in game instead of using real life money).
I can totally see how some wouldn’t like this feature, I just don’t share that feeling. I have little money to spare in real life but lots of time at the moment, so I enjoy spending more time instead of money. Time is a resource I have at the moment, money isn’t.
I would be of your same opinion, if this didn’t meant that they’re pushing gems selling in shady ways, like lowering drop rates.
And YES, this game is pay 2 win.
Certainly not in a heavy way like many korean MMOs; It may be ligh but it still is pay 2 win.Can you please tell all of us what you can buy with cash that you can’t obtain in game?
The problem is, is people think that paying cash to get something faster than grinding/farming for it is pay to win. This is absolutely not the case. Pay to win refers to games in which a cash shop is designed to offer players items that tend to be substantially more powerful than ANY item found in game. A great example of this is most private servers of competitive mmo’s. They run a system that enticing people to spend money by rewarding players that do pay, ridiculously overpowered gear/skills. Being able to buy something that literally -everybody- can potentially get, does not make Gw2 remotely similar to a pay to win system.Some of you play word games with the “P2W” definition to support your case. The fact of the matter is that since GW2 does not (yet) have any items that are “substantially more powerful than any item found in the game,” then the fact that you can attain the highest achievements in the game by “buying” them does, in fact, make it the “P2W” equivalent in GW2. Just because people can’t decide what other name to call it does not mean the term does not apply.
Bottom line, If a game is all about progression and achievement and a player is able to attain the end game achievement by paying for it, instead of earning it by progressing to it, then the game is in fact P2W. You can deny it until your face turns blue, but it does not change the fact.
Buying gold is not pay to win. At all. And I offered a general idea of what pay to win is, and you argued it, without offering an alternative. Gw2 is in no way pay to win. You do not pay for “power”. You pay for time saved. There is a huge difference. Again though, name me one thing you can buy with cash that you cannot obtain in game. This is the second time I’m asking, and nobody will answer that. If you can tell me, the pay to win argument will become valid. Until then, it makes no sense.
OK, let me answer you. You ask what you can buy with cash that you can’t obtain by playing the game. Nothing, beyond any gem store only items and they don’t increase your power level. But, that has nothing to do with pay to win. Pay to win is using cash to avoid the effort involved in playing the game. It is precisely to arrive at the highest power level by using cash to avoid the in-game path. Your distinction about time/effort saved by using cash is the pay-to-win everyone is talking about. It’s using cash to acquire gear rather than playing the game to acquire gear. It’s a pretty straightforward concept.
Hey guys I bought this game in early October just to dabble around with it. It was not a bad game, but now I am really, really becoming disillusioned with WoW. So I ask how is the game now, is it dead or dying; are there a lot of people out in the world (My toon was on The Tarnished Coast); how does the future look for GWII?
With WoW’s Great Wall of Dailies (see what I did there), I cannot keep playing that game. I have a 90 Priest there as well as an 84 Monk I was working on, but I seek to get into a new MMORPG.
I ask these things because you are all full aware that these games come with a heavy time investment, so please try and be as objective as possible. Is Guid Wars II really a good game at the higher levels considering I only made it to 10?
Oh and lastly, I don’t understand – they say this game is not a gear treadmill, but what do you play for (in game wise) if there is no traditional “end game”? The shop, is that a pay to win type of deal?
The game is not dead or dying. We are working through the standard issues you see around stabilizing a new game. There are issues and they are being addressed. We do have one issue we are dealing with beyond the typical and that would fall under the category of missteps. With Lost Shores, we had the introduction of vertical progression and that has rocked the community and the game. I don’t know how they will ultimately address the misstep, but other than that the game is evolving very well.
BTW, you are fortunate to be on TC as the population there is high and the dead open world problem which was created by the introduction of vertical progression is minimal there. Bottom-line, I’m confident in the developers ability to stabilize what is a very good game—but, I’m concerned about the misstep and am waiting to see how it plays out.
Just my point of view: The concept of “free-market” is what allowed every single recession to take place. Do we need to follow it?
We have not had a free market to observe, so we wouldn’t know whether or not it would cause or be related to a recession. The current system involves governments working directly in the economy to influence it for whatever ends it desires. In the US, we have anything but a free market. There are free market forces at work, so supply and demand do tend to describe price fluctuation.
However, in the game, we are another step away from a free market in that developers determine the limit of resources as well as their necessity (recipes). In the game, supply and demand play a role, but it is the developers that determine what is valued and it’s potential supply. This is where drop rates come into play and you are correct that the developers have this dial to play with to influence the game economy. It’s quite complex actually, especially when you mix in multiple currencies. I haven’t seen a good balance occur under current monetization schemes in recent games. BTW, I would describe as good a game economy where the players feel rewarded for playing the game.
I wasn’t able to move to TC until right before Wintersday when all servers became open at the same time. Why that happened I don’t know, but my assumption was that it had something to do with the event. They apparently remove the cap (by account, not active players, as mentioned above) periodically. And, some people do seem to be able to get in for whatever reason; so it is helpful to periodically try through the day.
Is a bought level 80 better than my hard-won level 80? It isn’t, so I don’t really mind. If someone wants to spend hundreds of dollars for a shortcut and some shiny pixels, it’s fine for me, as long as he does not have a stat-wise advantage over me.
That is where Ascended Gears comes ; they represent power and you litterally need hundreds of gold to get them, while someone can get them much faster with real money. While you will be trying to get the needed gold, those people will be more powerful than you in areas like WvW. Isn’t that unfair?
Why don’t you stop talking about stuff you don’t know about?
The only ascended gear that’s out right now is backs and rings. Do you work for Anet? No? Then you have no idea how the next set of ascended gear will be obtained.
The only thing you can buy with gold to get a stat advantage is the ascended back. The rings are only from running level 10+ dailys, so only the backs can be obtained with gold. And they are not “hundreds of gold.” You can get one with as little as 17 gold. And if that’s too much for you then you still have an alternative. You can buy one with 1850 fractal relics.
I WISH you could buy power with gold. I have 50 gold sitting in my bank with nothing to do with it.
Well, let’s talk about something we all know about. From the AMA:
“we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve.” (CW)
“GW2 can have gradual stat progression without being a gear treadmill game.” (MO)
Vertical progression progresses by periodically increasing the power level of players, usually through stats on gear. This is what vertical progression is; we all know this.
So, why do people argue from the degree of progression of the first three pieces on the treadmill? We will have a periodic increase in power from gear; Anet has committed to this.That gear, just as with the first three pieces, will be available to buy, at least predominantly, with gold. Therefore you will be able to pay-to-win, through the gem store, for the gear you need to be at the ‘most’ powerful power level in the game.
But, as this is vertical progression, which only defines a gear grind treadmill, you could make the argument that this is pay-to-lose. I, personally, would use this appellation.
The thing is YOU CANT buy them now and there is always a way to get these items with out buying. If any thing your asking for them to remove ways to get items though gold and make them only gems buy able. There is no true P2W because all items are equal level and will always be this way unless you do not trust the game makers and in that case its your world vs there and i will go with there any day over a random person from the web who can say and do any thing they want with out any type of consequences.
Let me help you with understanding vertical progression. Vertical progression “progresses” by periodically increasing the power level of players, usually through stats on gear. Before the treadmill all players are at power level X. A new tier is introduced and all players hop on the treadmill. When they hop off they are at power level Y. Meanwhile the environment has assumed power level Y, usually through new content. So, before and after the treadmill the players are at the same relative power to each other and the environment. There has been no actual progress. No one has gone anywhere. And, we have been promised that moving forward we will have, not Ascended gear, but vertical progression. We can all agree on that from the AMA.
But, what of the player who didn’t hop on the treadmill? He is now at a relative disadvantage to all players who went on the treadmill ride. If Anet stays true to form, he would be able to buy gear, right? I mean the best gear in the game, minus two rings, is currently available through gold. That would have to change in order for there to be no pay-to-win. Because it involves a treadmill that goes nowhere, I would still argue it’s pay-to-lose.
Is a bought level 80 better than my hard-won level 80? It isn’t, so I don’t really mind. If someone wants to spend hundreds of dollars for a shortcut and some shiny pixels, it’s fine for me, as long as he does not have a stat-wise advantage over me.
That is where Ascended Gears comes ; they represent power and you litterally need hundreds of gold to get them, while someone can get them much faster with real money. While you will be trying to get the needed gold, those people will be more powerful than you in areas like WvW. Isn’t that unfair?
Why don’t you stop talking about stuff you don’t know about?
The only ascended gear that’s out right now is backs and rings. Do you work for Anet? No? Then you have no idea how the next set of ascended gear will be obtained.
The only thing you can buy with gold to get a stat advantage is the ascended back. The rings are only from running level 10+ dailys, so only the backs can be obtained with gold. And they are not “hundreds of gold.” You can get one with as little as 17 gold. And if that’s too much for you then you still have an alternative. You can buy one with 1850 fractal relics.
I WISH you could buy power with gold. I have 50 gold sitting in my bank with nothing to do with it.
Well, let’s talk about something we all know about. From the AMA:
“we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve.” (CW)
“GW2 can have gradual stat progression without being a gear treadmill game.” (MO)
Vertical progression progresses by periodically increasing the power level of players, usually through stats on gear. This is what vertical progression is; we all know this.
So, why do people argue from the degree of progression of the first three pieces on the treadmill? We will have a periodic increase in power from gear; Anet has committed to this.That gear, just as with the current gear, will be available to buy, at least predominantly, with gold. Therefore you will be able to pay-to-win, through the gem store, for the gear you need to be at the ‘most’ powerful power level in the game.
But, as this is vertical progression, which only defines a gear grind treadmill, you could make the argument that this is pay-to-lose. I, personally, would use this appellation.
(edited by Raine.1394)
I agree that they need to implement a mega server technology or just copy WoW directly and implement cross-realm zones. CRZ’s didn’t work in WoW as they just added more rats to the cage, but they would work in GW2 as the problem of players playing together have been solved here.
This ultimately won’t solve the grouping problem in Orr or Southsun as no one really wants to go there. If people want the Ori there they will just park a character there. No one wants to actually ‘play’ there as it is not fun. They need to go back to the drawing board with the level 80 areas and ask what makes playing a game fun. Assuming they come up with the right answer—problem solved.
In leveling my ranger to 80 I tried shortbow/condition damage/traps for ~10 levels. It was fun and reasonably effective, but I determined I would have carpal tunnel in a matter of months if I kept playing that way. I switched to longbow-Axe/warhorn, power-crit build, and am very happy with it. The longbow is the archetypal and best weapon for the ranger. (I actually don’t believe there is a best weapon, but wanted to take a position on he subject for the fun of it.)
Having lots of Risen in Orr certainly makes sense. The problem is that the fast respawn rate, the extrasensory aggro, and continuous major CC makes for combat that is not fun. When I log in, I will look for any excuse to do anything except go to Orr. Since this is not just my take on Orr, this suggests that Orr needs to be thought through and tuned to provide a place where the combat is challenging, interesting, and fun. They have a ways to go at this point.
I have leveled Warrior, Guardian, Mesmer, Elementalist, and Ranger to 80 and am working on an Engineer at the moment. In almost any game the hunter/ranger will be an easy class to level because of the pets. The pets, right now, are weak and have a bad AI, but I still believe they are useful. You essentially get access to 2 in any given combat scenario and if you are facing many and/or tough mobs you will need to swap your pets on cooldown. Cooldown here about matches their lifespan. A ranger with a couple bears, or jellyfish underwater is going to be fairly easy mode for leveling.
That said, none of the classes were difficult to level. The Mesmer, realistically, probably took longer as they generally take longer to kill mobs. However, I didn’t notice as the Mesmer is incredibly fun to play.
The engineer is one of the most troubled classes and I actually have the lowest deaths/hour so far on him at level 38—I’ve only died once so far. I think probably it’s that I’ve improved in my understanding of mobs, environment, and combat mechanics in GW2.
My own feeling is that warrior, guardian, or ranger would be the top three in terms of ease, especially solo. If you like melee warrior or guardian. If you like a strong ranged option go with ranger.
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OP, I don’t believe we learn and attain mastery in order to move on. We learn, if anything, in order to then employ that mastery. So, I don’t think that people who leave have learned the lessons the game had for them.
Games meet a variety ‘needs’, that’s why we play them. It might be fantasy, we would really like to be that hero that saves the day and we know IRL that probably isn’t going to happen. So we make-believe. It might be abnegation; I might just be burned out and want to smash a few monsters mindlessly. These are the kinds of needs that games fulfill. Most game genres fill a niche among all the reasons people game. MMO’s address a broad category of gamers and seek to have many things going on in the game to meet peoples ever changing desires for entertainment. And, the MMO life-span is measured in years. If people leave in weeks or within a few months then, most likely, something about the way the game was conceived failed to meet the needs for which they bought the game. Or, perhaps the game just didn’t live up to their expectations or hopes. I pretty sure that games don’t teach lessons or participate in learning journeys. It’s entertainment and it either entertains or fails to.
I, personally, have noticed in DE events that I’ve done over and over that there is scaling involved already. That is, if I’m alone fewer mobs spawn than if I’m in a large group. Most lower level DE’s can be soloed no problem. If there is a champion +adds I skip them, but I find most DE’s soloable until you are somewhere in the 70-80 range.
I do think they need to rethink all content with an understanding that regardless of anyone’s wishes a lot of content will be done solo and in the open world it really should be designed with the solo player also included is terms of the actual design.
Nothing should be RNG. Player reward, or loot, should be a product of the loot system. Most loot systems use RNG, but would be more accurately described as rules-based systems that use RNG. Bottom line, the loot system should be tuned so that the common player experiences a “sense” of reward, beyond the actual gameplay, for playing the game. What I know from my own experience and others is that the loot system needs a little tuning at the current time.
I saw one on the TP for ~6k and another for ~9k last night. I really can’t imagine a brisk trade in legendaries at those prices. Yes, there will be a very few players that want to go to the work of a legendary just to sell it and there will be a very few players with legendary wallets that can afford one. Personally, I would like to see legendaries account bound, not bound to a character, as that really speaks to the achievement involved. Then all players with legendaries would represent those that have gone through the legendary steps needed to create one. But, it’s nothing I’m going to lose sleep over.
“Grindy” is 100% subjective.
up 1-80 is grind ( for me )Whether vertical progression represents a forced grind/work is 100% non-subjective.
Up 1-80 represents a forced grind !
It’s a fact and why I stated elsewhere I would prefer a tutorial story that gets you equipped (story-wise and gameplay-wise and gear-wise) for the game. At that point you would be released into the open world to pursue your adventure. From my perspective, the 1-80 grind is not needed. That said, I would be OK with it if it represented a grind that has an ending in terms of stat progression. Knowing I could rest in that regard at 80 was refreshing after years of grindy MMO’s with vertical progression. So, yes, I agree with you that 1-80 is a grind. I’m objecting to the introduction of post level 80 vertical progression and a never-ending gear treadmill.
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I believe a lot of the misunderstanding in the thread has to do with opposing definitions of ‘grind’. The OP wants a gear grind. He said he “needed” it. I suppose this is for a sense of progression in the game.
I recall an interview between the lead designer of Firefall and the guy from extra credits where the designer described a grind in the game as “work” and the guy from extra credits caught him on the word work and said, ah, work is good in a game? I suppose it was a raising awareness moment.
I personally have no problem with the concept of work or grind as a synonym for work. Why? To me work is simply actions performed in pursuit of a goal. I don’t see how one could even conceive of a game without actions in pursuit of goals—something I must do in order to achieve what I desire.
Some work in a game is needful and some is busy work. Busy work is not needful and should not be forced on a player. An example of busy work that detracts from game enjoyment is the work involved in keeping up with stat inflation. This is the grind I’m claiming is forced (and needless) in vertical progression. I just wanted to clarify a bit on what meaning I’m bringing to the terms grind and work.
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“Grindy” is 100% subjective.
up 1-80 is grind ( for me )
I think from all the definitions above we can simplify it using AcidicVision’s post and just realize it’s slang for work. Maybe actions performed in pursuit of a goal. A grind is work. Whether you like work is subjective, whether it’s happening or not is not subjective. Whether any given grind is grindy (too much work?) would be subjective because of people’s differing tolerances around work.
So, if you replying to me, I was not talking about how ‘grindy’ vertical progression was. I merely noted that it is a forced grind (work) and I don’t want to be constantly involved in preparing to have fun—I want to have fun like the Manifesto says, moment to moment. Whether vertical progression represents a forced grind/work is 100% non-subjective.
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Not sure the etymological discursion pertains to the current thread. I believe what I am saying is that, free of obligation, I would like to play the non-grindy game promised in the Manifesto. I don’t want to chose to play or quit freely. (Though I admit that is the choice with vertical progression—grind or quit.) What I want to do is play the game without being forced to grind after attaining level 80 and exotic gear.
It does. And this is exactly why I brought it up. “Grindy” is 100% subjective. The second you feel like something is a grind, then it is and the idea of a non-grindy game is gone.
No one can agree on the exact parameters, different people like different things, it’s impossible to please one sub-set of people without displeasing another and each sub-set thinks their way of doing things is the best.
If you are going to allow grind to be an applicable concept to a voluntary activity, then you should also be accepting of the fact that content you totally enjoy, someone else loathes and considers a grind; content you hate, other’s will love and repeat without feeling put out at all. So every single aspect of the game is potentially a grind to someone, somewhere.
This discussion can never end. There is no resolution. So it’s not particularly worth having.
The key to your understanding this will be in understanding the distinction between forced and voluntary when it comes to grinds. And when dealing with the question of forced and voluntary we take subjectivity out of it completely. You are either forced to do or not. It matters little whether you like it or not. Some like farming mats, some detest it. Either way you are are free to to farm or play the TP game system and buy your mats. You are not forced to do it one way or the other.
And, let’s take off the table the point that I can quit the game if I don’t like it—that’s a given and doesn’t pertain to or further the discussion.
The question is whether or not one is forced to grind gear in the context of vertical progression (and keep playing the game). The answer is 100% non-subjective and I’ve made my position clear my above posts. If you take issue with my position, quote it and show me where I am in error. Saying well it’s all subjective doesn’t advance a reasoned discussion.
Yep, that’s the game I want. From the written manifesto:
“It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.”
They knew what term “grinding” meant when they used it. It is the common understanding we all share from experience with other grindy MMO’s. It’s vertical progression, being forced to “gear up” to the next level where you can finally relax…for a time…until the next level and grind. I want the game described by the Manifesto, that’s all I’m saying.
The terminology as we use it goes back to 1851 and refers to an oppressive task that is unpleasant or difficult to perform.
This evolved in to meaning monotonous labor and became a slang term for work.
So absolutely anything, in the existence of ever, can be considered a grind if you are forced to do it and find it (such as society demanding we have a job, or go to school) unpleasant, difficult, and monotonous.
One person might not consider doing three paths of a dungeon every day, for a week or so to get an exotic set, a grind because they enjoy the dungeon and the people they are playing with; while another person may think it is a grind because they loathe every minute of it and feel like they are forced to do it to keep up.
Etymologically, Guild Wars 2 has no grind because it’s not something you are forced to play. It is a recreational activity that you have complete free will to decide that you want to participate in. At any moment you feel any part of it becoming “grindy” you can stop and do something else. Simply, unless you are a gold farmer trying to pay your bills, no one is oppressively forcing you to play the game.
Now, if you are choosing to participate, free of obligation, in an optional activity you think is monotonous, laborious, and difficult, then proceed to complain on the internet about it…you may want to look a little more closely at how much you value your free time and you decision making abilities.
There are very real mental illnesses out there that are categorized by someone voluntarily exposing themselves over and over again to activities that cause them frustration, stress, anger, and disappointment, and then proceed to try and convince themselves and others that it’s not their own fault. Just something to think about.
Not sure the etymological discursion pertains to the current thread. I believe what I am saying is that, free of obligation, I would like to play the non-grindy game promised in the Manifesto. I don’t want to chose to play or quit freely. (Though I admit that is the choice with vertical progression—grind or quit.) What I want to do is play the game without being forced to grind after attaining level 80 and exotic gear.
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All grind in this game is completely voluntary. You’re not forced to do anything you don’t want to do. So, when people tell me that this game has “unacceptable grind,” I tell them to quit grinding…because you aren’t required to do it.
Remember the AMA? They said that moving forward we would have vertical progression. Vertical progression is just another way of saying “forced gear grind”. To help you see this let’s consider vertical progression described by an integer series 1,2,3,4,5,n, where each number represents a tier of gear and the higher the number, the higher the power level. Now the difference between 1 and 2 is very low and may be ignored where the power curve is low as they said it would be. But, you must admit by the time you get to, say, 5 the difference will be significant. No matter how low the power curve, there will be a point at which you can no longer play at your current power level. The choice will be either to grind or quit playing. The grind is forced if you want to continue the game.
Sometimes I think the concepts are difficult for people when applying this to GW2. Many people like the game, I do, and want to support it. But, we have the answer from Anet: “we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve.”. You can argue about the degree of any given increase in power level, but you can’t argue that there won’t be a point at which I’m forced to grind to acquire the stats which are required to play the game at the then current power level. This is really straightforward following an understanding of what vertical progression is. If you get that, you will understand that it involves a forced grind.
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Best i can tell, damage done is very far down the ladder of reasons for a mob to target you over someone else. Heavy toughness, proximity, just being a certain profession (guardians mostly) and carrying a a shield seems to all take priority over damage dealt. For instance, i have yet to see a mob get pulled off someone in downed state by doing damage on said mob.
Yes, it’s a bit of a mystery at present and hate/aggro would have to be refined to move to a more trinitarian form. Damage usually functions as a ‘taunt’ (highest on the threat meter) and doesn’t in GW2.
What we have is a misconception of what defines the word grind in a video game.
Grind is repeating something to gain levels of advancement.
Farming is repeating something to acquire gear.
There is a difference.
My distinction around grinding is that there are forced grinds and there are voluntary grinds. An example of a forced grind is vertical progression where if you don’t grind and keep up you eventually will not be able to play the game. An example of a voluntary grind would be the pursuit of a Legendary or farming mats for crafting. All these activities require grinding of some kind. I would prefer to be able to choose the kinds of activities I pursue in a game.
I agree all games do have a grind.
GW1
– Had an acceptable grind
– Players were able to get max level stats and play everything in the game with their friends rather quickly.
– Armor was about looks not stats.
– We were able to have as many alternate characters as we wanted.GW2
– Unacceptable grind, I find it more like a Korean MMO rather and a Western AAA title.
– We are now grinding for gear and stats.
– making harder to level alternate characters.“Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games.”
- Mike ObrienYou missed one:
We are collectively punished with DR because of the actions of unrelated botters, and therefore have to grind to even break even on waypoint costs.
We then get to look in despair at the TP as the legendaries we were told we should be able to eventually attain fly further and further into the stratosphere.
Just wanted to correct one thing. We are punished with DR because of the actions of the game company, not the botters. They chose to pursue botters by punishing players. Other game companies have tried the same actions (D3 anyone) and then reversed them after the outcry from players. Players play games to be rewarded. You never make your game unrewarding to address botting.
Grinding in games occurs when you have to perform actions to produce desired results. Broadly, all games have the concept of ‘grind’. However, we are usually talking about gear grinds on the forums. That’s where stats are periodically raised on gear and you have to grind to chase the stat inflation. Since the outcome is that all people performing the grind end up in the same place relative to each other and the environment in terms of power level, it’s called a treadmill. It has the illusion of progress but in fact no one goes anywhere; there is no actual progression with vertical progression and it’s an unneeded concept in an MMO.
You mention the grind from 1 to 80. I don’t believe that is necessary either. I would much prefer to eliminate that grind by starting with a tutorial story that left you equipped and ready for the game and then unleashed you on the open world to pursue your adventure. Let’s do away with all ‘forced’ grinds and leave the ‘Legendary’ grinds to those who chose to pursue them.
With all the haloobaloo in the other threads, I wanna ask the other people what they consider “winning” in gw2. In most games, winning is attaining the highest-tier BIS items, or reaching max level, etc. Since gw2 clearly is quite different from those games, what do you think should be the definition of “win” for gw2?
If in most games having the highest tier BiS items is winning, as you say, then I would say that in GW2 having the highest tier BiS items by paying instead of grinding (to some extent) is winning and is pay-to-win. It’s really that simple; paying instead of grinding will be the pay-to-win in this game. Did you forget that they said in the AMA “we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve.” Vertical progression “progresses” by periodically raising the stats on gear. GW2 is no longer distinctive in terms of not having a gear grind treadmill.
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Here is how the game currently runs.
Support: Heals you barely feel, abilities that barely help you.
Control: Pointless.
Damage: Melee gets one shot, dodging still doesn’t work. Ranged is actually mandatory
Arenanet should just implement healers already, getting one shot isn’t fun, nor is laying on the ground throwing trash at your target then hopelessly dying like a fragile child ripe for slaughter. Dying on your feet is the way to go, fight to survive mechanic is inconvenient. Also do not say “L2play” it’s the bitter truth, the combat in this game is flawed and do not get me wrong I love the hell out of this game, played over 850 hours, savouring the greatness this game has to offer.
I offer you hope. Do you remember when Anet didn’t make grindy games and then three months in they say “GW2 can have gradual stat progression without being a gear treadmill game”? Right, vertical progression is just another way of saying a gear grind. I would not be surprised, at all, if we see professions (or builds within professions) become more specialized in terms of tanking and healing over time. I would even bet that we see movement in this direction in the Jan/Feb timeframe. It will probably start with a taunt and a significant direct heal.
Edit: There will probably be no change in the nomenclature. They will say that we can have taunts without having tanks, and significant healing without having healers.
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Think of Legendaries as grind insurance for at least one or two item slots. Anet has said that Legendaries will always be best in the game and since they’ve introduced vertical progression, there will be a continuous stat inflation on weapons and gear. Get a legendary and you only do the weapon slot grind once. I wish you could get grind-proof items in all slots—now that would be epic, if not legendary.
. If that type of behavior is not allowed anywhere else in the game why is it allowed in WvW?
Because there’s a PvP solution to your PvP problem.
How does that make any sense? I wouldn’t be in the PvP content if I didn’t have to be. Really I guess I don’t have to be but does that mean I shouldn’t pursue a legendary weapon because people think it is funny to camp out and kill people 30 on 1? 30 on 1….Really?? How can you even feel good about that? The JP is the only reliable way to get badges or else I would just follow the Zerg and it wouldn’t be a problem.
Would you rather have them remove the jumping puzzle and you have to earn it by actual pvp? I only did a few hours of world vs world, and unlike what you said badges actually drop in pvp. Just very slowly.
Maybe I’m not being clear… if I go into a JP and fight an invader one on one or 2 on one or 5 on 5 and I lose… fine! I don’t deserve to finish the puzzle. I should try again or move on, play more, get better etc…. no problem.
What I am saying is that it is GREIFING when 30 people from a Guild camp an area and kill people that are obviously just trying to get a reward from a puzzle that has no bearing on the WvW score.
I am not complaining because I got out played in PvP… I am complaining because it seems to be an acceptable pastime for Guilds to go out and harass other players for fun.
Sorry for the references from another game, but it’s like camping a graveyard in a battleground. It does add to your kill count but it’s not the thing to do to win the battleground. You could look at it optimistically by thinking they are giving strategic advantage to your world by ignoring significant objectives. From a strategic standpoint it’s good for your server that they are camping the puzzle. If you keep playing there will be times when the puzzle is open. This is just the nature of PvP.
Good one! This illustrates the common results from the loot system as it’s currently implemented. This is Anet’s growing edge. How to make the game rewarding in terms of loot for the common player. It’s not an easy balance to achieve and I’m willing to bear with them as they work towards a rewarding game. The reward from gameplay and gameworld are there. The loot system is underwhelming at the current moment.
Jeffrey, thanks of the info. Good to have you reading and interacting. I think that tuning respawn rates may be in order as I have “noticed” it as being problematic. I will certainly report any I see that are less than 95. Thanks!
My top 5 major things I think need to be refined in terms of this aspect of combat.
1) Mob density, especially under water, that restricts tactical movement. It leads to just sitting in one place and spamming abilities—not fun or interesting combat.
2) Invulnerability/reset
3) Extrasensory-aggro (Risen)
4) Respawn rate
5) Ability to apply continuous major CC
I won’t go into them as they’ve been discussed to death already. They are just aspects of combat that need to be refined for interesting, rewarding gameplay.
I would recommend that you closely read and consider digiowl’s posts on the combat roles. I believe he nails the problem better than the author of the piece under consideration. What it says to me is that the roles have not been thought through and then polished to the point where they yield truly rewarding gameplay. Let me give you a different view of combat example. What if our roles were resolved and they made perfect sense to everyone. But what if mobs spawned instantly, had extrasensory-aggro, and had the ability to apply continuous major CC. Would take make for interesting, rewarding combat? I’ve just described Orr and the answer is no, the combat would not be satisfying.
It’s a question of initial design, experience, and stepwise refinement. What we are talking about is the game coming together into a more cohesive whole. I am optimistic that Anet can pull off the issues the author of the piece says need to be hammered out—it’s really not that hard. He ends the piece suggesting they can hammer out the issues “Or we could keep going with Ascended gear. That went over real nice.” Don’t ignore the last paragraph of the piece; last paragraphs are usually significant. And, it’s interesting he’s posing it as an either/or. Either we can hammer out issues that are relatively easy to hammer out, or we can continue with headscratcher missteps.
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. If that type of behavior is not allowed anywhere else in the game why is it allowed in WvW?
Because there’s a PvP solution to your PvP problem.
I tend to agree. It’s a PvP jumping puzzle after all. You really have to complete it in a PvP context. Take the area, then do the puzzle. Having played on a PvP server in another game, cooperation sometimes happens between factions and I personally am OK and prefer that for some tasks with objectives, but I understand the dynamic the PvP area entails and I’m not surprised or offended when the opposing faction/server wants to kill me for whatever reason.
I only trust Kotaku or Gamesradar, and even then, game reviews are only opinions.
Not recommending Massively as a source, but I thought their selection and piece on GW2 was well done. Especially in the context of today’s article on what GW2 got wrong. They gave it a well qualified praise, which it is due. I liked the way the piece ended:
“So consider this a reality check. It’s not the apex of game design; it’s a game, one that aims high and hits a respectable number of marks but also one that has some issues it could really work on hammering out over the next year.
Or we could keep going with Ascended gear. That went over real nice."
There’s no tanking, no aggro management (if the game has a hate system it’s so incomprehensible it might as well be random).
No agro management? So all the knockback, fear, stun, root and daze skills are for nothing? Oh dear, ive been playing the game all wrong!
The skills you have listed are called CC (Crowd Control), they have nothing to do with aggro though they could cause it to register. An aggro management skill would be a skill like a taunt that will move you to the top of the aggro meter. Also, with the trinity most dps classes have skills to either redirect or drop aggro. These are “aggro management” skills.
I have also pondered the hate system or the lack thereof. I’m really not sure what there is in GW2. I first started pondering it at level 35 when mobs began ignoring my pet and making a beeline for me. I did an experiment. I targeted a mob and sent my pet in. I meanwhile did not attack with any ability. The pet attacked the mob and the mob headed straight for me and I was outside a normal ‘aggro’ range. Hmmm, how exactly did I top the charts without doing damage. (BTW, I later learned that putting 5 points in Beastmastery solved my pet tanking problem.)
But, the whole ‘hate’ system remains as much a mystery as ever.
It’s even currently in the process of being removed from the archetypal MF game: Diablo. At least being transitioned off gear. D3 has instituted paragon levels acquired through xp to eventually replace MF entirely. It’s a long-term goal and it will be phased out over time.
MF supposedly offers a risk/reward concept for players to play with. IRL it causes more problems than it is worth. It never works in groups as anyone in high MF will be considered to not be pulling his or her weight, etc. It’s really more trouble than it’s worth. We should equate playing the game with the concept of “magic find”. That is, when you play the game, you should find interesting, valuable items. That should be the true magic find.
My name is Raine and I am an altoholic. And, I favor implementing quality of life features for myself and others challenged by this condition. Account bound legendaries sounds great and more focus on the consideration of items that may be made account bound without harming the economy in a major way.