Did Pre:1900 Dailies and Post:1900 Dailies. I found that turning on my Commander Shield and leading a small team to annihilate the countryside was quite effective. It took people a bit to understand the Team-Combo one, but the rest wasn’t anything extraordinary nor substantially different than normal PvE play. I imagine WvW folks might have to go out of their way momentarily to gather and kill krait [underwater] but otherwise would proceed as normal thus far. As far as ’nerf’ing earnings. Not only did I receive my normal earnings, but I also received 2 laurels and a black lion salvage kit in addition. They buffed the earnings. Why would ‘nobody’ want buffed earnings?
Commander, if you had read the forums you would understand that many people who had been happily doing dailies for months were actually unable to complete them for the first time since launch. In other words, for many people, they improved it worse. So, not only did they not receive their normal earnings, they also didn’t receive any laurels. That’s why you see the this theme repeating in various threads.
Look dude before you bust out your pitchforks and rally all the hillbillies around to attack Frankenstein take a deep breath and realize. That number #1 people like getting new gear in these types of games. #2 Dailies aren’t a treadmill, they happen naturally while you play the game. #3 Go play any other game in this genre and see if you like the gear system better.
I’m opposed to a gear grind treadmill—it’s why I left WoW, among other reasons. But, since Anet has added vertical progression, I believe I like WoW’s take on it better. Anet is new to grindy games and really aren’t that good at it. I look at ascended gear and I see the mother of all gear grinds. With WoW, a new tier comes out, you hop on the treadmill and in a relatively short time you are geared up, PvP and PvE. It’s pretty simple and straightforward. Then you can relax a while till the next cycle begins. With Anet’s slow grind you always have that sword hanging over your head. Considering the grind here as it’s playing out, I think I prefer an easy and fast one.
When I came to GW2 and first reached 80 and max level gear I breathed a sigh of relief—I would never have to grind again—or so I thought. It is and continues to be a huge disappointment.
It is bugged. I had rollbacks on two of my d/c’s. And the combo killer doesn’t work unless you are in a dungeon or the stars otherwise align. It’s a pretty bad introduction to something which should have been a good feature.
You’re suggesting changing your build in order to get a daily achievement? Sorry, this one’s broken. And, it was an easy one to foresee being broken. It just leaves you scratching your head.
Change your build? Hardly. Just swap a couple of skills. If you aren’t already swapping skills on a regular basis to match the needs of the situation, you’re doing it wrong (or at least inefficiently).
But yes, this one needs looked at.
That’s called a build. I don’t use that skill because it has no place in a shout build. If you are swapping your utilities with no thought of build synergy you are doing it wrong.
GUARDIAN CANNOT DO THIS ACHIEVEMENT BECAUSE HE HAS ONLY 2 COMBO FINISHERS WICH MAKE AURAS, NOT DAMAGE! THANK YOU ANET, AGAIN.
I beg to differ. Learn to play your guardian better before posting in all caps.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hallowed_Ground (Fire Field)
and Whirling Wrath.
Use in co-operative combat.
I got my daily finished in about 30 minutes.
You’re seriously suggesting changing your build in order to get a daily achievement? Sorry, this one’s broken. And, it was an easy one to foresee being broken. It just leaves you scratching your head.
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You know, it figures, daily achievements were working now they are not. I was easily able to complete dailies before and they were a major source of karma. So, what do we do now? I guess no daily today, but could we get an Anet reply on whether this means no dailies from this point on?
I’ve had 3 since patch, two of them were with rollback of progress on hearts. Could be worse I suppose.
I’ve had two d/c’s in 15 minutes. Hope this stops sometime soon. I really wish we could put a hard stop to the events until the game is stable and balanced, but many enjoy them I guess.
OP, it has nothing to do with the fact that the game is virtual or has a small price. Games, especially MMO’s, are about investment, principally your investment in your character. When that character/spec is viable one day and not the next it is generally taken as a personal affront or offense. Let’s fact it, nerfing is the least creative way to deal with balance; but, it’s the most common way to address it. Sure, peaks and valleys need to be addressed, but perceived peaks and valleys, suggested by outraged players don’t need to be addressed.
And, many people here have ridden nerf cycles in other games for years and are tired of it. They, perhaps, played an SV hunter in another game that was perceived as OP. It gets nerfed and MM hunter is made even more OP than SV was. The solution is absurd and now, even though you prefer the playstyle of SV, you respec MM on the day of the nerf to be of any value to your team. And, the cycles seem endless.
Nerfs scare and outrage because they are often poorly handled and a sign of a dev team with a whetted finger to the air. Again, they are the least creative method of balance. Many of us would like to see more effort from the dev team when considering balance overall.
I’m not sick of seeing legendaries, per se. I am sick of being in a fight with more than one legendary Greatsword. It’s the animations. You are lucky to catch a glimpse of actual enemies or allies. The fight is largely wall-to-wall GS animations. Either tone them down or add an option to turn them off.
Gw2 requires less grind than any other MMO I’ve ever played.
“You are all still operating under the false premise that +1 stat is optional.”
When everything in the game is achievable without that +1, it really is optional.
The problem is that vertical progression “progresses” by periodically increasing the power level of the game. It can be described by an integer series:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5,…n
where each integer represents a new tier of gear with a corresponding higher power level than the one that proceeded it. It doesn’t stop at +1, it “progresses” to +2, then +3, and it doesn’t stop. Consider the two words: vertical, the power level increases, progression: it continually increases.
A person justifying vertical progression by stating that +1 power increase is insignificant doesn’t understand the concept. The concept is that, eventually, the power level will increase to a level where it’s grind the new tier or be unable to play the game. That’s simply what vertical progression is by definition.
No mandatory grind. There’s the difference. You don’t need to do any mandatory grind to get your 80 fully viable in any situation, which a set of exotics is more than enough for. Hell, you can just hit the trading post and fully gear up in a matter of minutes if you wish.
Legendaries, etc… that’s optional grind. Grind you choose to do because of the shiny you’ll get. Totally different from the mandatory grind of treadmill style games where it’s a power chase into infinity and beyond.
I agree with your distinctions about grinding, mandatory and non-mandatory, as they are also my distinctions around grinding. You do realize that they added vertical progression with the 11/15/2011 patch right? Ascended gear was a mystery to many of us with its higher power level, but they confirmed in the AMA that what we would have is vertical progression. By your definition we now have a non-mandatory, power chase to infinity and beyond.
+1 for fishing. And a nice fishing pole that you could acquire with a moderate assist to a fishing community. And, Anet, when you think you have the grind just right, halve it.
Crafting makes leveling very fast as has been said. But, the only way to do that is to buy mats and that gets very expensive gold-wise so you would need to invest $ to level this way. I found that DE’s are your friends for fast leveling beyond the normal hearts and gathering resources. You’ll notice in many areas there are chains of events and they can be completed many times for the xp and karma. Some areas I camp out for several quick levels just on the DE’s. On the whole I think they got leveling down in this game. I have 7 80’s and it always felt very fast to bring a character to 80. While you don’t want to grind mobs to level, you should be aware of mobs giving ‘exploration’ bonus in addition to the normal xp. The way this works is that the longer a mob remains in the world unmolested, the higher the exploration bonus. Some get high enough that killing a handful equals a dynamic event. Just be aware of mobs off the beaten path and kill one to test the xp. If the the bonus is high continue.
I think simply adding the concept of reward for play beyond the gameplay would go a long way to lessening the ‘sense’ of grind in the game. And, I’m just talking about the normal gearing up process, not grinding out a legendary. I’m very concerned about vertical progression being added to the game as it is outrageously grindy without it. My fear is the real grind yet awaits us.
And, while the Charrzooka is cool, I find I rarely use mine. It’s just too big, imo. But, if you want big and bulky the Charrzooka is your rifle.
They actually do scale in difficulty. If you were to do the same DE solo and then with, say, 10 players you would see the difference at least in terms of the number of mobs. And, the vast majority are soloable. I have 7 level 80 characters and have soloed countless DE’s in the process of leveling. There are a couple three that I’ve encountered that are not soloable. However, if you get some damage in and run away the failed event will still reward decent XP. But, again, most you should have no trouble soloing. You mentioned playing a Warrior. My last character leveled to 80 was a Warrior. For leveling I used a 5 signet build and a Greatsword. Your hundred blades on the GS will take down 3-5 mobs easily.
You really can’t be scammed in the game without your permission so I understand why it is not a big issue for Anet in terms of protecting players. That said, mail COD or direct trade is not unusual at all in games—why not implement it? Whatever their reasons, they are not well communicated within any kind of coherent philosophy.
Definitely a matter of priority. I have 7 80’s and highest map completion is 36%. I’ve played every race and every profession at least to the 40’s or so. The 80’s are now in full exotics and I’ve picked one to complete the map on. My goal is to make it fun.
1st person and general improvements to camera are a top priority imo. 1st person would cure the camera checking out in jumping puzzles and other tight spots. It’s not the cure for camera problems but should be added asap. Someone noted you should play in 3rd person. Of course, that’s not the issue; 1st person should be available for when it’s needed or desired.
I guess I have had the good fortune to be around good players (of bells) so have been more delighted than annoyed. Not to derail the thread but annoyance for me is being in a fight where two players have a legendary GS. The entire fight is obscured—no enemies appear, no allies, just GS animations screen-wide. It’s worse than culling. Now that is annoying. How about an option to turn off legendary animations?
Well I made a new character tonight, norn this time. And I’m only 75% or so done with the area and my character is already level 11, almost 12. I haven’t done anything different than what I did with the human character I talked about in an earlier post. Same process, hearts, then events whenever I could, with gathering. No story quests and no crafting were done on either character.
Now, I will say that the frequency events – especially levels 1 through 5 – seemed a lot higher in the norn area than in the human area. As far as I can tell I’ve done roughly the same amount of events, I wasn’t keeping track.
But it still begs the question of why, without doing anything different (other than being in a different area) is my norn character so far ahead of my human character while completing less content, all things considered?
Less people play norn so less creatures get killed – that’s my guess. Let’s say you kill something and it gives you 16xp. If that creature has been alive long enough to get it to the full bonus of 2.5x, you then get 16xp + 40xp bonus. I’m not 100% positive but I think that’s how bonus xp works for kills.
Also xp granted scales with the difficulty of the mob. Base xp for killing an easy target might be 10, while a tougher target might be 16 or 20 (whatever). Maybe the norn area just has tougher mobs? I’m not 100% positive on this one either ’cause I never really paid that much attention.
Yes, and this should be emphasized for optimum leveling. It’s called exploration bonus and it’s higher the longer the creature has been alive and unmolested. In fireheart rise I found mobs where the exploration bonus was ~950 which meant killing a handful equaled a dynamic event in terms of total XP. The key is to going off the beaten path, try killing a mob. If you hit gold just continue on in that area. While grinding your way to 80 is not recommended, this is an excellent way to supplement XP while waiting for an event or just running around.
The solution to your problem lies in the DE’s you are avoiding. Throughout the game there are areas where DE’s spawn regularly and reward a ton of XP. You’ve probably noticed this in the brisban wildlands, harathi hinterlands, jelako island, fireheart rise (apostate waypoint), and the list goes on. They scale and the vast majority can be easily soloed. Even if they fail they still award good XP and the follow-up is often far easier.
I would agree with you if the game didn’t have DE’s, but with them leveling is fast and easy. This is an aspect of the game they nailed.
Edit: I should add I have 7 level 80’s the last of which dinged 80 a couple days ago. I’ve noticed no diminished returns of any kind and leveling in GW2 is the fastest I’ve experienced in any MMO.
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Honestly, Anet probably got spooked by players asking for a gear grind. The only reason for a higher power level would be to add vertical progression and a gear grind treadmill. They added the reward to a dungeon because that’s how WoW does. They thought this would make the grinders happy. Of course, this emptied the open world as people realized there were better stats available. Another outcry occurred and they said they would locate the treadmills throughout the world. Now, instead of the non-grindy game we bought we have a grinding game and a grinding culture similar to WoW’s.
The entire debacle supports the view that the best way to manage a game’s evolution is through the game’s DNA rather than mob rule. The DNA is the developers vision for the game and the DNA was the manifesto in this case. If they would have followed the manifesto they would have avoided the debacle and we would be playing a better game for it.
The daily can usually be fit in naturally with whatever you are doing. At the end of the day the only thing I do specially for the daily is the kill variety and that just takes a few minutes. I always finish them for the karma.
TC server here as well and event was bugged when I tried to level through the area last night. If you just need the skill point you can go in the back way via an entrance after the Skullcrusher event which did spawn last night. A group of us was able to get in do the skill point and wreak a little havoc in the camp. But, was there a couple hours and the normal event chain didn’t spawn in the harathi hinterlands. Earlier in Wynchona the only the broodmother event spawned normally. Lot’s of problems for lot’s of people moving through the area.
Contemporary games have made a move towards simplicity. This is probably both for accessibility and ease of managing balance. The trade-off is loss of character customization and a more boring combat. Is it worth it? I think the gamer has paid too high a price for the design goals. I think that the trend and methods of simplification could moderated a bit and games would be more engaging for it. I’m not sure if simply adding skills like GW1 is the complete answer but I’m certainly open to it as a possibility.
Kind of agree yes, I too prefer the “medieval” component than the weird one.
I hate asura for that, and their zone actually. Labs, illusions, techno google…. Too much technology. Need more nature, castles, mansions, deeps, cliff etc…
I kinda disagree here. I like the medieval component as well and it exists in the game. I love the Asura for what they bring to the game. Imo, a mix of technology and medieval components fits GW perfectly. If you have the Asura you will have labs; if you have the Charr you will have steampunk. And, I like having them both.
They don’t do a lot of damage, you have to trade off damage for survivability. I play a d/d ele, takes me forever to kill stuff compared to a damage build, but, it’s hard to kill me too. The people who complain seem to say that it’s “no fun” to play against them, not that they are a threat to their lives. That eventually they will always lose a war of attrition against them. Of course these guys ideas of fun is to instagib people then call them names or insult their profession, so go figure.
Killcannon you’ve had a lot of good observations on the AoE topic in general and the d/d ele. Before I tried to play one I stumbled on videos of a skilled player playing one. It was the first time that being a spectator was truly fun and I watched them obsessively. At no time did it occur to me, oh wow, what an OP spec. He wasn’t burning people down with his AoE. It was the player’s skill that hooked me. In my favorite video I think he may have killed one or two but it was basically a 15 minute clinic on how to PvP—not strategically, assaulting a keep alone is probably a bad idea, but tactically. He was using his abilities, terrain, LOS, and extending fights to his advantage. It did occur to me that here was a spec that rewarded player skill and I wanted to play it. And, it dawned on me overtime as I saw more threads like “when are they going to nerf the d/d ele” that there was trouble ahead. I hope this thread has been helpful to Anet as they consider the issue. Thanks to the OP and thanks to Anet for reading along.
The distinction is that when I play, I want to play well, I don’t approach it as work. And there was no contradiction in what I said in the post; not even a ‘little bit’. Read it again. It had nothing to do with where players were on a skill or gear curve or why; simply the values they hold.
The contradiction is that you say the game should be played for fun, but you are forcing people to play the way you want to because it’s more efficient.
That is why I described the MF problem being a human one as opposed to a specifically game or technical one. Those who have a problem with MF are approaching it from a set of values they hold for themselves and would like to, ideally, see in others.
Lack of skill, lack of determination, lack of desire to obtain better results are all human based. It was civil but you intentionally skip over legitimate arguments and don’t even mention them. I feel like I have made some very good points so until those are addressed then I’m done. We both know that we aren’t going to convince each other one way or the other, but when you refuse to acknowledge a relevant point, that’s when the discussion dies.
I don’t want to force anyone to play the way I want to play, I would simply prefer MF be removed from gear. We all come to positions on what’s best for the game; it’s my position on MF. But, if you think it strengthens yours by intimating mine is coercive, go for it. And, yes, a game should be played largely because it’s fun. ‘Force’ is not fun and it is no part of my position on any aspect of the game. Do you truly believe that having an opinion or position on a matter is coercive? But, I can see why you’re stretching here, I mean you are asserting that my position is contradictory; you would have to make something up to make it so.
I wasn’t aware any of your points were unaddressed. What would you like to see addressed? What relevant point has not been acknowledged?
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Dev: “AoE must be OP”
Sooo, the fact that small, highly-skilled squads can effectively dismantle an unorganized zerg by intelligent use of skills, terrain and communication leads Anet to deduce that AoE needs to be “toned down”?
Maybe it was that decent players are using AoE for area denial. Or, it could be that ANet feel zergs were being “unfairly” punished for mindlessly funneling through obvious choke points.
In all seriousness, ANet really needs to have at least one PR person review and/or sit with Devs while they do these livestreams to prevent them from pulling a ‘Jay Wilson’ like they did with this last stream i.e. saying crap that will set player base into an uproar. Saying that you are going to nerf AoE without also putting forth at least an outline or some idea of how you are going to approach said nerf is about one of the worst things the Devs could have done.
This. I don’t see how you could watch this and come away with the idea that AoE is a problem in the game. This is precisely the kind of play you want to encourage. Not even AoE specifically but organized thoughtful play. It has a predictable outcome.
It’s like watching a vid of a skilled d/d ele and being concerned about a profession that rewards skillful play. This is exactly what they should be striving for in all professions.
It’s not like we will ever have a player base that is not reactionary. What we need to work toward is a developer base that doesn’t react to reactionaries.
I’m not hardcore, but I do pay attention to theorycrafting. It doesn’t make me an engineer, but it does benefit my play. Maybe it just describes different values and therefore the different values that we bring to group play. I would prefer to play with others who care about their contribution to the groups success. I actually don’t have a problem with the under-geared new 80 or a new player with a low skill level. I do have a problem with a player who does not want to contribute to the group at the level which he or she is capable of.
I deleted the golfing analogy because it’s not a team sport. Also I probably shouldn’t have made the basketball analogy because it’s no use discussing make believe stuff.
Your last statement contradicts the previous one a little bit. That new player with a low skill level could contribute more. They good read up on builds, they could go to the heart of the mists and fine toon the traits to be perfectly in sync with their gear/playstyle. That new under-geared 80 could farm orr until they get some money to buy rare, but they probably don’t want to spend the time so they still have masterwork items.
These are all choices that people make. This contradicts your statement about playing to have fun as opposed to working. I understand that everybody has their right to not play with somebody, that’s fine. But I’m just getting a little tired of people looking down on people who use MF. To me fun is getting good drops. I love the playstyle, but seriously, isn’t it more fun to play through a dungeon and get an exotic that you can sell for 4g, as opposed to running through the dungeon and getting a couple of blues. Both are fun, one is more fun/rewarding.
Also, this is probably one of the most civilized conversations I’ve had about MF gear. So thank you Raine.
In the golf analogy I was addressing ‘play’ as opposed to ‘work’ not individual play as compared with team play. The distinction is that when I play, I want to play well, I don’t approach it as work. And there was no contradiction in what I said in the post; not even a ‘little bit’. Read it again. It had nothing to do with where players were on a skill or gear curve or why; simply the values they hold. That is why I described the MF problem being a human one as opposed to a specifically game or technical one. Those who have a problem with MF are approaching it from a set of values they hold for themselves and would like to, ideally, see in others.
I could just as easily ask, in a game that not about grinding gear, why do we have a stat which solely gives you more of it? Neither of those questions is very good though.
I agree. I don’t think MF should be in the game. But it is in the game so I’m going to use it, and my group shouldn’t look down upon me because I am a very skilled player. If I’m the most skilled player in the group (not saying I am, just if) then why should I sacrifice my personal reward to help carry THEM through the dungeon. Now that’s 4 people being selfish and unskilled.
I want to continually improve my play, my gear, and the other aspects of my build. It’s not work, it’s play.
Yes it is play. So why get upset with people playing the way they want it to be and turn it into work. I find this very funny coming from an anti-MF person. People site stats and improvement efficiences like they are an OPEX engineer in a manufacturing plant. If it’s play, just have fun your way. You know your group is doing bad because lack of skill, not a 10% lower DPS, which probably isn’t optimized anyway.
To play well is not work. It’s fun. Consider the golfer. There is a reason you see so many driving ranges as you drive around. Those folks are not working by the way; it’s recreation time.
I’m not hardcore, but I do pay attention to theorycrafting. It doesn’t make me an engineer, but it does benefit my play. Maybe it just describes different values and therefore the different values that we bring to group play. I would prefer to play with others who care about their contribution to the groups success. I actually don’t have a problem with the under-geared new 80 or a new player with a low skill level. I do have a problem with a player who does not want to contribute to the group at the level which he or she is capable of.
I have yet to see this question addressed. In a game of anti-min/maxing, what does this matter?
We all know, whether you want to admit it or not, that one person doing 5-10% less damage doesn’t really matter in the long run.
Oh no! Now your 30 min long dungeon run turns into 31 minutes. Are you going to blame the guy dying? Are you going to blame the guy not dodging? are you going to blame the guy who missed his interrupt? What about the person who forgot to put his food back on, or didn’t even bring food! Outrageous!
DPS doesn’t require a reason. Either you’re contributing or you’re not. If a basketball player misses the game winning shot, there’s no excuse. It’s like it’s okay because he just didn’t have the skill, but it’s not okay if his shoe was untied. I’m sure you naysayers will pick out some arbitrary detail in the analogy but the point still stands (INB4 He doesn’t have stats on his shoes)
I could just as easily ask, in a game that not about grinding gear, why do we have a stat which solely gives you more of it? Neither of those questions is very good though.
Th issue is not game difficulty or in min/maxing. The problem comes from what we are as humans. When I play, I want to play as well as I can. I want to continually improve my play, my gear, and the other aspects of my build. It’s not work, it’s play. When I play this is what I bring to it and when I play in a group I don’t want to be the guy who causes the wipe. On the contrary, I want to contribute to the groups success as much as I possibly can. Again, it’s a human thing and I think probably a lot of people approach games this way, not all, but a lot.
The problem with MF is that it involves gimping yourself, i.e., not being the best you can in order to receive more reward. It’s stupid in itself as a mechanic. I understand it’s logic, but it wasn’t a very good idea. The problem comes when grouping with others. Even if the content is not at the level where it matters you are still gimping the group when you gimp yourself. Of course, it matters more as the content scales higher. That, and that fact that you gimp the group for a reward that they won’t see.
(edited by Raine.1394)
I actually celebrate these professions for the reasons you describe. To the extent a profession seems complete, offers build synergy, and allows creative play I believe it’s a testament to the work done in their design. One would hope that game designers are aware of where they have succeeded and where they have met with less success. There are bright folks at Anet so they are probably aware of this.
So, I offer a toast to the Ele, the Thief, and the Mesmer. May they live long and prosper and never see the dark shadow of the nerfbat. And, may their good fortune come to all the professions of Tyria.
(edited by Raine.1394)
I dont’ think it is the “gimping yourself” which bothers me the most.
I just don’t understand the concept why mf user should get more reward than me. Since it is a group thing. Everyone should be given equal rewards.
If magic find is shared between every group member. I don’t think this topic will be brought up.
If MF was shared you would see the same level of outcry with a slightly different line of reasoning. It would now be why do others, who haven’t invested anything on MF, get to share my MF—IT’s NOT FAIR. And it wouldn’t be. Sharing MF was tried in D3 and a variant outcry ensued. There is a simple answer to the problem. Simply remove it from gear.
AoE is not a problem in the game. Usually, when game companies want to tweak the game, for whatever reason, they will deflect the criticism by saying that players have asked for it. In our case, players have complained about AoE to some extent. I hate “When are they going to nerf X class” threads. Sadly, game companies seem to fancy them.
A previous post suggested that AoE is unfair because it makes for better farming. Guess what, predominantly AoE builds have historically always been better at farming than single target. These are simply the trade-offs you balance in choosing your profession and build. They all should have distinctive strengths and weaknesses. I have 6 level 80’s and a mix of both. There is no jealousy among my characters. (Well, my engineer actually lusts after my warrior’s rifle, but that’s another thread.)
I think part of the agenda is to nerf the d/d ele as they’ve said it’s on their ‘watchlist’. The last place I would want to be would be a game companies watch list. d/d eles, prepare to be nerfed. And, don’t be surprised if mobility is in the mix.
While peaks and valleys need to be addressed, nerfing is probably the least creative method to bring balance to the game. Sadly, as the crude hammer is readily available, it’s what we usually see.
2. That’s reason enough, why should someone that does less be paid more? It’s the single stat that contributes nothing to a party…
Under the the logic of the MF system, the MF-using player who does less should be paid more because he or she has had to weaken himself or herself in comparison to players who do not use MF. Therefore, the MF user has a harder time fighting and surviving vs. mobs than does the non-MF user. That harder time should be compensated via increased rewards for the player who bears the burden of taking it on .
Having said that, removing MF from the game would be much better than keeping MF in the game.
MF should not be required to get good loot on a regular basis. Rather, everyone should get good loot on a regular basis by default.
I somehow knew that the lord god would come to a righteous conclusion on the matter. MF is about reward. We all want to experience a sense of reward when playing a game beyond the gameplay itself. In an MMO with an economy it’s required. MF causes problems in games where grouping is possible. Witness this thread and the many others like it. The answer to MF is to remove it from gear in the game. The answer to the desired sense of reward is to tune the loot system so that it is experienced. It’s almost toooo simple.
the truth of the matter is you guys are just looking for the new gear score to use to discriminate against people with just to suit your delusion of self importance.
Hate gearscore and the elitism/discrimination it brings to a game. It has no place in GW2. Also hate MF. It always, in any game with group-oriented encounters, creates problems as your choice to gimp yourself for greater reward also gimps the group, by definition, without them receiving greater reward.
I’m glad they do. Even if I never find anything of particular interest, I don’t, it reminds me there is a miniscule chance that one day I will.
Out of all of these threads, I still have yet to see proof that the MF stat is failing groups. The risk factor is compensated by the player’s skill level and that’s what I witness every day I pug for dungeon runs. If someone isn’t doing a good job, it’s 99.9% of the time because of their incompetence to play the game.
—snip—
And you won’t find any proof that the MF stat is failing groups from me. My argument is that MF is a risk/reward dynamic where you gimp yourself (assume risk) in order for the chance to receive better loot. By definition, in a group activity you gimp the group to the extent that you gimp yourself.
And your experience in pugs should not lead you to believe that the risk is compensated by player skill. If you pug in the same corner of the universe as I pug, what you will notice is that there are good players average players and bad players in the game. It is illogical to assume the world will tilt and only good players will run in MF gear. The simple fact is that there will be good, average, and bad players running in MF gear. They will all have one thing in common though. They will all have gimped themselves in terms of their actual performance by preferring MF over gear with stats that contribute to performance. That’s not speculation, simply a side-by-side comparison of the gear. This is why skill is not irrelevant to group play, but is wholly irrelevant to a discussion of MF.
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You’re choosing to contribute less to your group to increase your own drops. Plain and simple. It’s disrespectful to everyone involved. And no matter what you do with MF, you could do more with something else. When you use MF in a dungeon or fractal you are saying “I am more important than the rest of you.”
actually, telling people what gear they can and cant use is saying i am more important than the rest of you.
No one in the thread has the power to tell other users which gear to use so no one is saying I am more important than you. The discussion is about a concept, MF. It’s a discussion that I witnessed play out in D3 several months ago. MF, because it affects group performance in terms of the hard numbers (not the hypothetical user skill), is an issue for players in group-oriented games and especially in an MMO. MF is a game design element that wasn’t given a lot of thought in terms of it’s presence in group-oriented play and consequently it causes the same problem in other games. When D3 processed the issue several months ago the outcome was to remove it from gear. I believe that is the best approach to MF in this game. We are simply discussing an issue not talking about issues of personal worth.
My bet: Both from their comments and the popular mood on the forums, they are going to tone down Meteor shower and significantly nerf d/d. I wouldn’t be surprised if it includes both damage and mobility. I’ve always tried to respond to the “when are they going to nerf d/d” threads by highlighting the showcase for player skill aspects of the spec, but the mob has a rope and its sounds like justice is going to be spelled n-e-r-f. I just hope they don’t invalidate the spec altogether.
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Yeah, being on the watchlist probably doesn’t portend well for the d/d ele sad to say. I think the main issue revolves around what’s right with the spec rather than what’s OP. While the ele traits are nothing to get excited about, the 60 core points for a d/d ele create a synergy that is uncommon with other professions I have played. The spec seems more complete and thought through. What comes out of the traits and abilities is a spec that is fun to play and effective. It’s too bad that balance has to be about nerfing. Sure, peaks and valleys need to be addressed, but why not focus on introducing the kind of counter play amongst the classes that will raise the level of the game. I think they alluded to this but the watchlist comment and AoE nerf sounds like it will combine to be a large nerf to what is probably the best job they’ve done in class design. We’ll just have to wait and see how far they take. I hope they don’t erase the good work they’ve done.
Make alt, have run to ori node, mine ori, delete alt, repeat…..
Sounds like an exploit.
Are you suggesting that anyone would take that amount of time to farm an ori node? And, do you realize how much more gold you would gain through a fraction of that time simply running pent/shelt on a level 80 character. Exploits are usually time-efficient unintended ways to ‘loop’ gold production and anyone doing it puts players to a disadvantage who are not doing it. While this may not be intended play, I would say anyone doing this ‘exploit’ would simply be gimping themselves.
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As I see it:
-using mf makes you ~66% as effective as non-mf
-using non-exotic items makes you 60-90% as effective as exotic
-being a poor player makes you 20-50% as effective as professional
-combining a few: being a mediocre player and using masterwork items is 40% as effective as exotic pro
I get the impression everyone that is anti-mf assigns all of these handicaps to mf builds.
Nope, only the first one would apply for me whatever the actual percentage is. MF exists as a risk/reward mechanic where you increase your chance of reward by gimping yourself to the extent you give up meaningful stats that affect player performance. That there are many factors that affect group performance should not excuse a factor which obviously, by definition, affects group performance.
Any given player’s skill is a complete hypothetical in a MF discussion, the MF gimp is based on an actual reduction in player stats. In a group encounter of any significance gimping yourself is by definition gimping the group. The salt in the wound is that you are then rewarded more for contributing less.
I remember a thread that dealt with this but not from the “is it bannable” perspective. It was more oh the horror of it, the economy is ruined. I couldn’t make any sense of that concern. If you can get the level 2 to the rich ori node in Southsun, I don’t condemn you, I salute you. But, if I were you I would park a level 80 in a level 80 area. There is no difference to the economy whether you are level 2 or level 80. If the picks are account bound and you can get the level 2 to a level 80 area I really don’t see the problem with this, though some apparently do.
I recall seeing an Anet post in a thread saying this was fine. Pretty sure. But, yeah, the practice is pervasive and certainly isn’t an exploit that disadvantages other players.
“I guarantee you 90% of the people arguing against MF don’t”
Made up statistics are never a valid argument.
If there were a stat that did nothing but give a % of spawning a Rainbow Clown Wig, you probably wouldn’t want to run with people who stacked it over a passive combat influencing stat.. but it seems to be ok to run with MF, that influences combat no more than said Clown wig would. I don’t get it.
This is great! Thanks. It made me realize that all the power of a reasoned argument often falls on deaf ears, but a powerful metaphor or image can be game changing. From now on I don’t want to run with those stacking % chance of spawning a Rainbow Clown Wig. (Though it might be very cool to see. I can imagine it sparkling or glistening ever so tastefully.)
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