(edited by Raine.1394)
You’ve got 28 days to do 5 dungeons.
Is that really difficult to achieve?
Yes, it is if you don’t do dungeons. Pretty straightforward. Since dailies and monthlies are a currency reward rather than just an achievement, and since they are the mechanism in place for the gear grind treadmill, they should really be available to people with all playstyles, which includes people who don’t do WvW or dungeons. This doesn’t require a great deal of thought or reality-testing. Anyone should be able to understand this.
I personally don’t salvage anything but Rare’s. ANet need to change it because it doesn’t fit in with my playstyle, and 500 is too much.
If it’s going to be a case of you get rewarded for playing the game the way you play it anyway, they may as well go ’here’s your monthly allowance of Laurels’. If they made the amount of what you usually do a lot, people will complain it’s a grind.
Doing 1 dungeon every 4 days (meaning you’ll be done in 20 days) isn’t as much of a hassle as people are making it out to be.
Since WvW is another game-mode (PvPVE), it should have a separate monthly achievement anyway for the people who want to just play WvW.
You don’t have a good grasp on playstyle in this context. We are not talking about catering to every last detail of play. Players usually self-select around PvE open world/PvE dungeons/PvP. There are people that hate dungeons and hate PvP. There is no reason to mandate that people play major game systems that they detest. But, given that I wouldn’t put salvage in as a required activity either. The key is for there to be options available that allow players to both play the game enjoyably and get the daily and monthly achievements.
Culling used to be an episodic problem for me. Since the 1/28 patch it is universal in any moderate sized DE like harathi hinterlands or pent/shelt. In the past I used to see it occasionally in the hinterlands but never at pent/shelt. I rarely see enemies approach anymore; it’s more like combat is inferred by friendlies beating the air. Because of the nature of culling I’m thinking it can’t be just me. Has anyone else noticed this?
Juvinile river drakes are found in the area just outside of Divinity’s Reach. No need to go to Orr.
Sorry, meant the juvenile reef drake — the one that’s only in Southsun Cove.
Yeah, I noticed them when on my warrior and went back with my ranger to charm. Just googled and this vid shows the location where I found them:
I have soloed many Champions, and none of them have dropped any loot. All you get is the event completion reward.
In my experience, champs do very rarely drop loot. But, it’s at most a a blue with minor coin. Last night the champ at the end of plinx just dropped 1.x silver. Not exactly rewarding given how long that fight is. He, unlike other champs, has always dropped something insignificant for me.
Same on TC server.
I only suffer from visual bugs (culling) during events of even moderate size. And, it is far worse after the 1/28 patch. It’s now a consistent, universal problem rather than an episodic problem. But, it sounds like the audio issue should be acknowledged with a time to fix statement.
Yes, you can simply compare the situation to the camera in other MMO’s. I have never encountered a problem with the camera in an MMO except in GW2. The problem is not really the camera and JP’s, it’s simply the camera.
You’ve got 28 days to do 5 dungeons.
Is that really difficult to achieve?
Yes, it is if you don’t do dungeons. Pretty straightforward. Since dailies and monthlies are a currency reward rather than just an achievement, and since they are the mechanism in place for the gear grind treadmill, they should really be available to people with all playstyles, which includes people who don’t do WvW or dungeons. This doesn’t require a great deal of thought or reality-testing. Anyone should be able to understand this.
(edited by Raine.1394)
I only have the problem, GTX 580, when ambient occulsion is enabled. Turn it off, no problem.
I’ve noticed this a well when waypointing out of a zone. I like them acknowledging my successful progress but once is probably sufficient.
I have taken 7 characters through harathi since launch on three different servers. It has been universally bugged and inaccessible. It’s good to know it’s finally on the radar for a fix.
I would just like something nice to drop in the first instance. To date I have levelled to 80 and completed map 100% and still not had anything of real value drop for me. I have even spent hours in Orr and the Karka Island and still nothing, (how the hell are you supposed to get legendary pre-cursors)
I must be the most unlucky player around.
You are not alone. I’m in the +1000 hours played club and have never had a memorable drop. My thinking on tuning the loot system is to shoot for giving the common player a few omg moments per thousand of hours played.
Perhaps a minor annoyance with multiple solutions, but another good example of how game mechanics and design decisions affect game culture. There are other problems with the new dailies. Consider the daily dodger. Perhaps Anet wanted to reinforce dodging behavior as it is a key element in the combat system. But, when I’m doing, say, tar elementals for the daily I hit them once ranged and then go through a series of dodges getting multiple evades. What it is actually teaching is not dodging (already knew that, thanks), it is teaching sub-optimal combat. It is an artificial behavior to get the daily done, not play the game as you normally would. This was actually one of the good things about the old dailies. I never had to think about them; I just played the game as I normally would and then, maybe, cleaned up kill variety before logging out. Reward for playing the game, ideally, should be for playing the game, not the reward system.
Ursan, I can’t speak for anyone else, but I see no expected values in the mf, for there to be we would need to be able to find the average amount of rares required to get a dusk, and I have yet to see such calculations for obvious reasons.
Every single time you put 4 rares into that mf the chance of getting precursors is exactly the same.
It is very much like playing the lottery in rl, a very small minority EVER wins.
while I agree at some point that gambling is your only option, I do not belive it is a viable option, and most definatly not a favourable one.
I’m not defending this “slot machine” system in any way whatsoever, but if you take courses in probability you learn that your probability of losing multiple independent trials in a row diminishes as you add new trials, eventually diminishing to an effective zero. The number of trials at which this becomes infinitesimal places an upper bound on the limit of a precursor, but only if you assume a rational market that is NOT risk-averse. (that assumption is simply faulty)
Is that why financial advisor’s advise you to to buy more lottery tickets to increase your chance of increasing your wealth? Are you serious? Your odds of winning are the same with each trial. Nil. The lottery system is a problem in every game it’s been used in. In contemporary F2P games it’s near universal and a barrier to conventional player reward. It needs to be removed from games and if that means subscriptions, so be it. Players expect and want games to be rewarding. When they are not there is dissatisfaction and a vocal dissatisfaction.
(edited by Raine.1394)
Every game needs expanded content over time. Seriously, this still qualifies as a new game. While I fault Anet on some design choices I don’t fault them for having a new game 6 months into the game’s history.
Read the rules, if you want to play the game, abide by the rules. Problem solved. I appreciate Anet’s actions in maintaining a healthy gaming environment.
Some good points here. The dodge daily forces me to dodge, artificially, not to fight in the most effective manner possible. It’s the same with the healer daily, if you are assigned to protect an NPC, it is more efficient in terms of the daily to let him die numerous times so you can revive him. These are examples of brainstorming without a step to evaluate before implementation. The lack of reality-testing is a major missing element in the dev cycle since 11/15.
Specifically, this part:
The Name and Word Filter is not a “license to swear” or “permission to offend.” Saying “Just turn on your filter” isn’t that answer, any more than telling parents “Just cover your children’s ears” give you the excuse to swear up a storm in a restaurant. With any private service — restaurant, movie theatre, game server — the owners reserve the right to expect a certain level of behavior. The filter is offered as a means to try to limit offenses, but not as a feature that then presents others with the opportunity for “no holds barred” in the use offensive language.
I like Gaile Gray’s take on it. What a well-written and well-reasoned response on the subject. That’s pretty much my take on profanity in-game or in-public IRL as well.
The only truly bad social experiences I’ve had have been content-related. The latest being the new, improved grenth. I don’t know which was worse the people I was fighting with or the mobs I was fighting against. Anytime the game emulates WoW in terms of FotM or giving the grinders artificial difficulty, it brings out the worst side of people in-game and predictably so. By and large though Anet has done a great job in encouraging a positive in-game culture. I wish all the teams at Anet would get on board with the Anet vision though—it would make for an even better community than the one they’ve already created around GW2.
Post 11/15 the only truly legendary aspect of legendaries is that they represent grind insurance for the weapon slot. Get one and you will never have to grind that weapon slot again. I wish they would introduce legendary armor for the same reason. Imagine what it would be like to be able to opt-out of the treadmill…for ever. Sounds legendary to me.
Yeah, you’ve got a couple issues going here. There is the general problem of loot, or lack of same. And, there is the problem of condi builds not successfully tagging mobs. You could comfort yourself with the fact that the spinning tops really aren’t getting much more than you. Only partially kidding here.
But, yes, my mesmer has maybe seen the dark of the tunnel a couple times. Farming is far better with some classes though I wouldn’t go so far as to say it’s actually good with any.
Wouldn’t it be nice if instead of fixing the dailies that weren’t broken they turned their attention to condi builds? Both in terms of tagging and overall sustained damage. And, of course, it would be nice if they could destroy environmental objects at a respectable speed. There are so many issues right now that need attention that I’m nonplussed at the issues that do get addressed.
I disagree.
The reason?
For a Guardian, and probably a Warrior, both of whom haven’t been nuked, I mean nerfed, to death trying to balance PvP & WvW play, have never had much of a challenge in PvE. The professions which have been nerfed to death had such a hard time in PvE, that the new changes make it even harder for them.
I’ve played my Guardian, Mesmer, and Thieves since the changes, and my Guardian can still take on a Champion, and his mobs, while the others can barely handle one or two normal monsters at a time. (fewer than before)
Tend to agree here. I haven’t noticed much on my guardian but my warrior almost died from a 20-something pack that normally wouldn’t have survived a 100b opener. And, yeah, the trailing classes are noticeably just more underpowered now, probably not a good feeling for a hero to have in lower level areas. I liked the dynamic scaling previously and thought they had pretty much arrived at a good balancing (not counting starting areas). The idea of adding level appropriate rewards was good in theory, but working harder for my bones and shattered lockpicks has not been a, well, rewarding experience in conjunction with the new realignment of players and environment. More than anything, it should not have been prioritized ahead of actually balancing the classes (bringing the red-haired stepchildren up to standard) and fixing the glaring problems like culling. Culling, if anything, is far worse in open world PvE after the patch. It might have looked like low-hanging fruit to them but I just take it as a bad design decision.
It’s funny they talked about addressing culling in the 1/28 patch, but it is actually much worse sense the patch. I’ve noticed this wherever I am in moderately sized events like harathi hinterlands or pent/shelt farming. Enemies are invisible you need to infer their presence when you see friendlies begin to beat the air. This was an occasional issue in open world PvE, but now it’s a persistent problem everywhere I play that includes a moderately large group. Even friendlies don’t appear naturally in the distance when, say, running through the tunnel at pent/shelt, they pop into existence when you get close to them. Really bad when what you notice is game bugs constantly when trying to play the game.
I was doing map completion in the grove on another race and it was a combination of the atmospherics and the music—especially the music. I rolled a Sylvari ranger that very day.
Let me ask you a question. If they kept adding gear with a higher power level than the power level of the current gear, would there come a point where you would feel it was mandatory to acquire the new gear?
No, though depending on the following being met to some degree (though not all need be met, depending on the severity that some are ignored);
1) If the curve was shallow enough to be unnoticeable during my current style of play (which the progression from White -> Exotic has largely been for me);
2) If this gear did not restrict my access to content I enjoy, nor fundamentally restrict others from enjoying theirs;
3) If the community’s drive towards efficiency does not become aggressive. I try and act in a way that I would like to be treated, and I accept that there will always be a drive towards efficiency that I will always find off-putting (which is why I tend not to do dungeons, but that’s another story). I tend to believe that while game mechanics can encourage certain behaviours, there is a point where people should be self-aware enough to mitigate and manage their actions, and this is very strongly influenced by the greater community being able to moderate themselves. It happens;
4) If skipping tiers was compatible with my playstyle and resources, therefore avoiding locking me into a route from 1 -> 2 -> 3 instead of 1 -> 3.Anyway, I don’t want to this turn into ‘Raine vs. Proxy: Another Thread About Two People’s Opinions Over Vertical Progression’. I think I’ve said my bit, so I’ll shut up now and stop barfing words everywhere. I don’t even fundamentally disagree with you, Raine – the problem is that I just think we’re looking at this thing from different perspectives and not managing to make our feelings meet in the middle. And if true, then that’s a shame.
Well, I don’t think it’s always possible to meet in the middle when a well-defined issue is on the table so I don’t see that as a failure. To the extent to which we’ve illuminated the issues I would judge the discussion a success. I think I’ve had enough on this thread as well. Anything more would just be repetition at this point. Cheers.
Let me ask you a question. If they kept adding gear with a higher power level than the power level of the current gear, would there come a point where you would feel it was mandatory to acquire the new gear?
If the curve is shallow, wouldn’t that point be so far away that it would become irrelevant?
No, and the question is a simple one. And, if answered honestly, will solve the problem of understanding vertical progression and it’s impact on the game.
Care to illustrate how the answer is no? Because the way I’m seeing the power curve, the point where the top tier now will become mandatory to continue playing is on the scale of years.
Gladly, a slow grind doesn’t make the question irrelevant, it just means it will take longer to realize. We truly don’t know the scale at this point and you don’t need a scale to answer the question. Can you answer it honestly?
Ascended gear was never an issue for me, per se, and the stat increase from the initially released pieces don’t mandate that I get them to be able to play the game on a par with other players that have them. But, they are simply the initial pieces. Vertical progression doesn’t progress by stopping. It gives players a sense of progression by progressing. That’s why you choose to add it to a game. And it progresses by periodically raising the power level of the game. This is what causes it to seem grindy; you know you must grind to keep up with the increasing power level of the game.
Arguing from the stat inflation of the initial Ascended items doesn’t really engage with grind issue that comes with vertical progression. I do find the argument that they are insignificant amusing though. It’s the first time I’ve seen the defense of a new game element based on its insignificance.
If you enjoyed the content of the game before the announcement of vertical progression, and you admit that the current status of the game does not mean that you are required to gain the items you associate with vertical progression to play on par with other players, I don’t fully appreciate the loss of faith in the design team. If they constructed an enjoyable game, there’s a substantial chance that they will be able to implement vertical progression in a baseline enjoyable manner regardless of our current associations with the term. And if they add new gear without making it mandatory, then both of us can continue playing (provided that you still do?) without it effecting us severely, as can others who feel the same.
I’m fine with logical arguments against vertical progression. I’m less comfortable with it being treated as a fall guy for developer decisions that simply don’t support what people personally find to be interesting in a game, on a purely subjective level, or that is used to give weight to people’s fears of the unknown.
And I never said that the Ascended gear stat bonuses were insignificant, though it could be argued that I said they’re insignificant to me. That remains true. As I’ve said, I’m more than comfortable for people to have a different opinion provided that they respect the relative significance of my own.
Let me ask you a question. If they kept adding gear with a higher power level than the power level of the current gear, would there come a point where you would feel it was mandatory to acquire the new gear?
Except Anet stated this was the last tier. So there is no if. I will humor you though (even if the question was not directed at me), and say the point where it would be mandatory is when you can’t do content because of gear. Not having ascended does not impede your ability to do the content, so I have zero issue with it.
I’d love to see that quote as if they had said that then I’d be out of the forums and into the game in a heartbeat. Please post the link to this statement by Anet.
Lol Hate to kill it but there will be many tiers after ascend. Chris W and Colin J both stated that into the future you can never tell. – I take that as many more tiers.
And yes I agree HP should have been the focus all the way.
Yeah, I know, but I was hoping to see the panic when she discovered that what they actually promised was vertical progression. And, as we know, it doesn’t progress by stopping.
Ascended gear was never an issue for me, per se, and the stat increase from the initially released pieces don’t mandate that I get them to be able to play the game on a par with other players that have them. But, they are simply the initial pieces. Vertical progression doesn’t progress by stopping. It gives players a sense of progression by progressing. That’s why you choose to add it to a game. And it progresses by periodically raising the power level of the game. This is what causes it to seem grindy; you know you must grind to keep up with the increasing power level of the game.
Arguing from the stat inflation of the initial Ascended items doesn’t really engage with grind issue that comes with vertical progression. I do find the argument that they are insignificant amusing though. It’s the first time I’ve seen the defense of a new game element based on its insignificance.
If you enjoyed the content of the game before the announcement of vertical progression, and you admit that the current status of the game does not mean that you are required to gain the items you associate with vertical progression to play on par with other players, I don’t fully appreciate the loss of faith in the design team. If they constructed an enjoyable game, there’s a substantial chance that they will be able to implement vertical progression in a baseline enjoyable manner regardless of our current associations with the term. And if they add new gear without making it mandatory, then both of us can continue playing (provided that you still do?) without it effecting us severely, as can others who feel the same.
I’m fine with logical arguments against vertical progression. I’m less comfortable with it being treated as a fall guy for developer decisions that simply don’t support what people personally find to be interesting in a game, on a purely subjective level, or that is used to give weight to people’s fears of the unknown.
And I never said that the Ascended gear stat bonuses were insignificant, though it could be argued that I said they’re insignificant to me. That remains true. As I’ve said, I’m more than comfortable for people to have a different opinion provided that they respect the relative significance of my own.
Let me ask you a question. If they kept adding gear with a higher power level than the power level of the current gear, would there come a point where you would feel it was mandatory to acquire the new gear?
Except Anet stated this was the last tier. So there is no if. I will humor you though (even if the question was not directed at me), and say the point where it would be mandatory is when you can’t do content because of gear. Not having ascended does not impede your ability to do the content, so I have zero issue with it.
I’d love to see that quote as if they had said that then I’d be out of the forums and into the game in a heartbeat. Please post the link to this statement by Anet.
Let me ask you a question. If they kept adding gear with a higher power level than the power level of the current gear, would there come a point where you would feel it was mandatory to acquire the new gear?
If the curve is shallow , wouldn’t that point be so far away that it would become irrelevant?
No, and the question is a simple one. And, if answered honestly, will solve the problem of understanding vertical progression and it’s impact on the game.
Ascended gear was never an issue for me, per se, and the stat increase from the initially released pieces don’t mandate that I get them to be able to play the game on a par with other players that have them. But, they are simply the initial pieces. Vertical progression doesn’t progress by stopping. It gives players a sense of progression by progressing. That’s why you choose to add it to a game. And it progresses by periodically raising the power level of the game. This is what causes it to seem grindy; you know you must grind to keep up with the increasing power level of the game.
Arguing from the stat inflation of the initial Ascended items doesn’t really engage with grind issue that comes with vertical progression. I do find the argument that they are insignificant amusing though. It’s the first time I’ve seen the defense of a new game element based on its insignificance.
If you enjoyed the content of the game before the announcement of vertical progression, and you admit that the current status of the game does not mean that you are required to gain the items you associate with vertical progression to play on par with other players, I don’t fully appreciate the loss of faith in the design team. If they constructed an enjoyable game, there’s a substantial chance that they will be able to implement vertical progression in a baseline enjoyable manner regardless of our current associations with the term. And if they add new gear without making it mandatory, then both of us can continue playing (provided that you still do?) without it effecting us severely, as can others who feel the same.
I’m fine with logical arguments against vertical progression. I’m less comfortable with it being treated as a fall guy for developer decisions that simply don’t support what people personally find to be interesting in a game, on a purely subjective level, or that is used to give weight to people’s fears of the unknown.
And I never said that the Ascended gear stat bonuses were insignificant, though it could be argued that I said they’re insignificant to me. That remains true. As I’ve said, I’m more than comfortable for people to have a different opinion provided that they respect the relative significance of my own.
Let me ask you a question. If they kept adding gear with a higher power level than the power level of the current gear, would there come a point where you would feel it was mandatory to acquire the new gear?
You are correct in your assumption around the crux of my argument. You have bolded the correct statement. However, it has nothing to do with “my” definition of it, it’s simply the generally understood definition of it. Vertical progression is, after all, a common element in gaming and people have been discussing it under some label for years. And, it truly is simple. We are not dealing with a complex issue. We can simply consider it in the context of horizontal vs vertical progression. I ran across a good discussion of the issues a while back. Have a look:
http://taugrim.com/2012/04/19/why-games-should-scale-horizontally-instead-of-vertically/
I’ve seen that post before, and I appreciate where it’s coming from. However, if the definition you have stated is the accepted definition in the development community, then it is being inappropriately applied to GW2 in the current game. Any vertical progression introduced via the Ascended gear is not currently mandatory, and while you might have fears that this will develop over time into something unavoidable, it’s still inaccurate to say that this is the current status of the game. If any vertical progression is considered non-mandatory (thus undermining the definition) then people are free to do as they like – chase horizontal goals for aesthetics, or vertical for efficiency.
Taking quotes for issues related to vertical progression directly from the link:
Vertical Progression Criticism
1) It’s grindy
2) It creates brackets. You can’t do content with other players unless your character levels / gear scores are sufficiently close
3) It causes power creep. Content is initially too difficult, but once players obtain the gear to do the content, it becomes progressively less difficult until it’s trivial
4) It creates dead zones and content. This happens when the bulk of active characters are at level cap and whenever expansions are released with new content1) It may be ‘grindy’, but we seem to agree that a grind has both positive and negative connotations, depending on who you ask, so this need not be a negative thing. Furthermore, there are plenty of instances of horizontal grind in the game (Dungeon armours and Cultural armours being two). A grind need not be unenjoyable, and much of that is down to personal preference;
2) I’ve previously said that I and others can enjoy all of the content in the current game without investing in Ascended gear provided that we acknowledge the statistical imbalance between those on the lower and higher ends of the gear spectrum. This is an issue with what we value in our games and how we define our enjoyment – there are no instances of simply being unable to take part in anything in the game based on not having Ascended gear. It may become easier with it, but that is not the same thing;
3) This is not currently something we see in-game. I do not define higher level Fractals as ‘content’, as they’re based on repetition of content that anyone can enjoy. This is a potential issue, but not a current one;
4) Dead Zones are the result of many design choices, leveling, basic content and the drive towards player time vs reward efficiency being key amongst them.
Ascended gear was never an issue for me, per se, and the stat increase from the initially released pieces don’t mandate that I get them to be able to play the game on a par with other players that have them. But, they are simply the initial pieces. Vertical progression doesn’t progress by stopping. It gives players a sense of progression by progressing. That’s why you choose to add it to a game. And it progresses by periodically raising the power level of the game. This is what causes it to seem grindy; you know you must grind to keep up with the increasing power level of the game.
Arguing from the stat inflation of the initial Ascended items doesn’t really engage with grind issue that comes with vertical progression. I do find the argument that they are insignificant amusing though. It’s the first time I’ve seen the defense of a new game element based on its insignificance.
Were people doing dailys before? yes. Were there umpteen billion posts saying dailys were a grind before the introduction of laurels? No. But now that you can actually get something for playing exactly like you did before its a grind?
You don’t play exactly as you did before the new dailies. With the new dailies you play for the new dailies. If you don’t you won’t achieve them. That’s pretty straightforward.
I don’t. I play the new dailies so as to get the new dailies. The old dailies were largely a product of of just playing the game…as it should be.
I play the game exactly as I did before. I did my dailys before everyday for the karma and 5 silver. They want to give me laurels now? Great. It didn’t make the dailys more of a grind, it’s the exact same process (well different process now, which was sorta stupid) takes 15 minutes to half hour. It added no grind, except in your own mind.yes, you are playing the new dailies for the new dailies not as a byproduct of simply playing the game. That is actually a statement of the problem with the new dailies, but you would have to understand gaming and reward to know the difference.
I find it amusing that you know why I do something better than I do. Game theory and skinner boxes are also pretty easy to understand, even for laymen, which you assume me to be. Perhaps you should enlighten the rest of the class with your wondrous knowledge of why we are all now doing something for a totally different reason than we were before. Hint…we have always done it for reward.
and what is up with the misquotes, I never even said half the stuff that is in those quotes
What Anet has done with the new dailies is move the grind from FotM to open world PvE. You are right that no one complained about the grind before with the dailies, but they are now. Think about the intent of laurels. It is a new currency to buy higher powered gear. You chase stat inflation with laurels. You grind to get them. That’s why you now see ‘grind’ in connection with dailies. It’s impossible for people to miss it even if they don’t fully understand where it’s coming from, i.e., vertical progression. Grind and Guild Wars really don’t go well together and that’s why players notice it and complain about it.
If the process of the dailies have not changed (only a bit), then the only thing that makes them a grind now, that they were not before, is player interpretation. Adding additional incentive now makes people think of them as a grind, when nothing has actually changed. People wanted incentives to play, Anet gave them incentives, players get upset and call it a grind. I think if Anet caved and gave everybody a Legendary for logging in, someone on the forums would pipe up and call it a grind.
It might be helpful to define grind. From your usage I take it that you attach a negative connotation to it and its etymology justifies this usage. It was originally associated with ‘work’ and generally carries a negative connotation with it. I actually have a neutral understanding of ‘grind’ and define it as simply performing actions in pursuit of a desired goal. I may dislike aspects of any given grind, but I generally enjoy grinding.
The only distinction I make around grinds is that there are optional grinds and non-optional grinds. In horizontal progression all grinds are optional. In vertical progression, because we are talking about the increasing power level of the game, the grind is non-optional. I do attach a negative connotation to non-optional grinds and therefore favor horizontal over vertical progression.
In terms of the dailies, this is what I was getting at. We didn’t need a new currency; we have more than enough of those already. The whole reward structure was created to move the gear grind out of FotM and into the open world. People complaining about a grind associated with the dailies most likely are just realizing that it is a non-optional gear grind.
It’s fine to like vertical progression. For many it’s a good fit and it does give them a sense of progression in a game. Other players prefer horizontal and many bought GW2 due to the absence of a non-optional grind. Once you’ve made it through to an understanding of horizontal vs vertical, the matter is largely personal preference from that point on.
Were people doing dailys before? yes. Were there umpteen billion posts saying dailys were a grind before the introduction of laurels? No. But now that you can actually get something for playing exactly like you did before its a grind?
You don’t play exactly as you did before the new dailies. With the new dailies you play for the new dailies. If you don’t you won’t achieve them. That’s pretty straightforward.
I don’t. I play the new dailies so as to get the new dailies. The old dailies were largely a product of of just playing the game…as it should be.
I play the game exactly as I did before. I did my dailys before everyday for the karma and 5 silver. They want to give me laurels now? Great. It didn’t make the dailys more of a grind, it’s the exact same process (well different process now, which was sorta stupid) takes 15 minutes to half hour. It added no grind, except in your own mind.yes, you are playing the new dailies for the new dailies not as a byproduct of simply playing the game. That is actually a statement of the problem with the new dailies, but you would have to understand gaming and reward to know the difference.
I find it amusing that you know why I do something better than I do. Game theory and skinner boxes are also pretty easy to understand, even for laymen, which you assume me to be. Perhaps you should enlighten the rest of the class with your wondrous knowledge of why we are all now doing something for a totally different reason than we were before. Hint…we have always done it for reward.
and what is up with the misquotes, I never even said half the stuff that is in those quotes
Raine figures that only he/she understands game design and everyone who disagrees with him/her couldn’t possibly understand it on the same level, or else they’d agree.
He/she mistakes his/her limits of vision for the limits of the world.
This is an example of an ad hominem. It usually occurs at the end of debate when one party runs out of intellectual gas and resorts to personal attacks. Let me help you out here. Simply take an assertion that I have made and show me why or how it is wrong. This is how the forum game is played. It’s a lot like ping pong. The balls in your court.
The community lacks social glue, not the game. You cant attribute social dysfunction to bad design. This happens in real life too, people blaming their government for what is essentially a problem with their mentalities. There is nothing that any developer can do will ever force people to play together a game that gives them the capability to play it individually too.
Elements of game design have a significant impact on in-game culture. They don’t change bad people into good people but they exert an influence that works to shape a game culture.
Let me give you an example. Making quests and resource nodes non-competitive, DE’s benefit from a larger number of players, XP from rezzing players, all contribute to seeing other players in the map as a positive experience. Contrast this with another well-known MMO where more players in a zone are just more rats in the cage. The simple positive experience around seeing other players created by game mechanics forms the basis then for cooperative and mutually beneficial play. Don’t underestimate the game developers power to shape culture. It is a significant aspect of game design for good or ill.
I give credit where credit is due. Anet has implemented many features which contribute to a positive social experience.
Thanks for link. I have a very broad definition of ‘grinding’ born of years of gaming. To me it’s simply performing actions in game to move in the direction of a desired goal. Though the term has a generally negative connotation in terms of it’s etymology, I don’t attach a negative connotation to it.
What I have noticed around grinding is that there are optional and non-optional grinds. And, they come from how you choose to implement a sense of progression in a game. With horizontal progression (pre-11/15) all grinds are optional. With vertical progression (post-11/15) the grind is non-optional. By definition, with vertical progression there will come a point where the choice is do the grind or stop playing the game. It’s the introduction of vertical progression to GW that people are complaining about. Many people have been riding treadmills for years and came to GW2 for promised relief. I was one of those. I did get almost 3 months of relief and I am thankful for those 3 months. I am disappointed with the decision to add a mandatory gear grind to the game.
GW2 already has vertical progression. Simply leveling is vertical progression. That’s a non-optional “grind”. There is content you can’t do unless you hit 80. I get that there is a difference between getting to level 80 and a gear treadmill, but it’s incorrect to say there is no vertical progression. What is important is to what degree vertical progression is present. So far in GW2 it has been minimal. While ascended gear is the top, you can still do the content without it. That gear isn’t actually required for anything.
We’re not on a treadmill currently. Anet released their last tier of gear late. We can’t assume that we’re on a treadmill just because of that. That’s pretty absurd. Granted they have said veritcal progression will still be in the game, but we don’t know to what extent. Vertical progression is a part of RPGs though. Whether they be online, console, or even table top. It’s not a bad thing, as long as it’s not what the whole game is about. I think GW2 is at a good middle ground. There are some vertical elements, but still some horizontal. Whether this will change or not in the future…I don’t know. But curretnly, the game as it is, it’s not on a treadmill.
Yes, the game had vertical progression prior to 11/15 both in terms of leveling and tiers of gear. The distinction around 11/15 was the introduction of vertical progression post max level gear at max level. GW1 had vertical progression too but it stopped at max level. This is what we are talking about. In the AMA Anet confirmed that vertical progression would be in the game going forward.
You are correct that you can have elements of horizontal progression with vertical. The problem is that you can’t have no vertical with vertical. It’s a non-optional gear grind by definition. I’ll post the video link on the distinctions again in case you haven’t seen it.
http://taugrim.com/2012/04/19/why-games-should-scale-horizontally-instead-of-vertically/
What I have noticed around grinding is that there are optional and non-optional grinds. And, they come from how you choose to implement a sense of progression in a game. With horizontal progression (pre-11/15) all grinds are optional. With vertical progression (post-11/15) the grind is non-optional. By definition, with vertical progression there will come a point where the choice is do the grind or stop playing the game. It’s the introduction of vertical progression to GW that people are complaining about. Many people have been riding treadmills for years and came to GW2 for promised relief. I was one of those. I did get almost 3 months of relief and I am thankful for those 3 months. I am disappointed with the decision to add a mandatory gear grind to the game.
We’ve discussed this elsewhere, and while I’m not convinced any of us have much to gain from further discussion, I’ve a few minutes to kill before I have to head out.
I’ve bolded a specific sentence in your quote that acts as a fairly significant statement against vertical progression. I’m not about to suggest that it’s wrong – I’m sure that it applies enough to you to make it worth stating. However, I’d suggest that by boiling down what can be a complex issue into such a simple statement, you’re losing or removing the value. This is important when considering that it forms a crux of your argument.
You acknowledge that implementation is important when it comes to progression – I’d argue this applies as much to horizontal progression as vertical alone, but the distinct statistical associations of vertical tend to give it more weight. It’s harder to justify alienating players when it comes to simply allowing them to enjoy the game on a basic level, as vertical progression threatens to do, than restricting subjective horizontal content. In this case, however, the key word is ‘threaten’ – alienation is not yet truly in place, but the possibility is there. It’s a thing that could happen based on evidence, circumstantial or otherwise. However what threatens you does not necessarily threaten me, and just as I’m wrong in stating that everyone shouldn’t feel threatened, I can’t see how people are justified in stating that everyone should be, because our experiences in-game and the time we all spend are drastically different.
I’ve chosen to remove myself from the equation by not chasing Ascended gear. This is based on a reasonable estimation as to how long it would take me to gain from time spent gathering the items I need against the game time I have available. It’s not a protest – if I incidentally pick up gear during my usual play, I’m happy with that. Despite this, I do not feel alienated in my game time – I do not play to be, or remain statistically competitive, and this is entirely personal. If the danger of vertical progression is the threat of a non-optional grind, I currently consider it a groundless threat. For some, it may not be. Stating either as fact isn’t accurate. Your reliance on the use of a ‘mandatory gear grind’ to define vertical progression in negative connotations is open to criticism based on people’s playstyles and their goals. Even considering that a lot of mandatory actions in this game can be found enjoyable or satisfying tends to undermine this, just as non-mandatory actions can be irritating or unsatisfying.
Even if vertical progression, by your definition, was implemented on 15/11, that does not invalidate the content already enjoyed by many. Provided that one can still enjoy this content and more on a base level regardless of their tier of gear, it won’t. But the issue here is that what someone enjoys is not so easily defined, particularly when attempting to make simple fairly complex issues.
You are correct in your assumption around the crux of my argument. You have bolded the correct statement. However, it has nothing to do with “my” definition of it, it’s simply the generally understood definition of it. Vertical progression is, after all, a common element in gaming and people have been discussing it under some label for years. And, it truly is simple. We are not dealing with a complex issue. We can simply consider it in the context of horizontal vs vertical progression. I ran across a good discussion of the issues a while back. Have a look:
http://taugrim.com/2012/04/19/why-games-should-scale-horizontally-instead-of-vertically/
Yes, it seems reasonable. You are playing GW2 after all and it is similar to my experience. Predictable and profitable farming is something that happens in all the other MMO’s. Remember, GW2 is a different kind of MMO.
The Ettin cave is another example of a poorly designed encounter. I saw another one last night, the new Grenth temple fight. They wanted the fight to be more difficult and they are targeting, by admission, more hardcore players with this one now and excluding everyone else. But how do they do it? With massive unavoidable AoE. Challenge actually comes from interesting, yet avoidable boss mechanics. Massive AoE is something you do when you’ve run out of creativity and still must make the fight ‘harder’. It’s simply an indication of poor game design. The cave is another example. Strategically, you want to take out the adds first, then address the significant mob. In the cave, however, the adds are continuously spawning. No problem when with other players, but a problem for some when solo.
This is one of the brilliant features implemented by Anet to solve the player playing with other players problem you find in other MMO’s. Non-competitive quests and resource nodes are other features that address the same problem. In other MMO’s players of your own faction can be your worst enemy. And, adding more players to a zone there is like adding more rats to a cage. Eventually, they begin eating each other.
Anet, solved the problem of players successfully playing with other players through thoughtful game design. What you see as a problem I see as a solution.
Jesus. People on these forums really like to twist their definition of “grind” to suit their complaints. Contrary to belief grind does not mean solely a repetition of tasks (in regards to MMORPGS).
First of all Ascended gear. Something that Anet was planning from the start. This theory crafting on what WILL be rather than what IS is useless. We don’t know how big of an increase they’ll be. If there’ll be even more ways to get them when the other pieces are released. So CURRENTLY ascended gear is optional. Isn’t this game supposed to about skill? That’s what people kept saying. Now that there is gear that adds what…6 stat points (correct me if I’m wrong) we’ll lose all the time? If that 6 stat points are the defining factor to winning or losing…then maybe you should work on your skill a bit more. If fractals and dailies are too hard/too long/too whatever, how would you like to get them?
Now onto laurels. We have a way to get ascended with the absolute minimal amount of effort needed. Seriously. If you are so casual you can’t spend the 30 min (tops) needed for the dailies and a month isn’t long enough to do the monthly…then why do you even need ascended? If you play so little you can’t put in such a minimal amount of effort for the gear then what use would it even be for you? Unfortunately just wanting it isn’t a good enough reason. Now if the dailies are making you do something you don’t want to do, I have to ask…what do you want to do? So far the dailies I’ve seen are things that you’d complete just by playing (except maybe the crafting, but making 10 ingots is so incredibly easy).
In closing…please for the love of God. Read this before saying who “grindy” this game is.
Thanks for link. I have a very broad definition of ‘grinding’ born of years of gaming. To me it’s simply performing actions in game to move in the direction of a desired goal. Though the term has a generally negative connotation in terms of it’s etymology, I don’t attach a negative connotation to it.
What I have noticed around grinding is that there are optional and non-optional grinds. And, they come from how you choose to implement a sense of progression in a game. With horizontal progression (pre-11/15) all grinds are optional. With vertical progression (post-11/15) the grind is non-optional. By definition, with vertical progression there will come a point where the choice is do the grind or stop playing the game. It’s the introduction of vertical progression to GW that people are complaining about. Many people have been riding treadmills for years and came to GW2 for promised relief. I was one of those. I did get almost 3 months of relief and I am thankful for those 3 months. I am disappointed with the decision to add a mandatory gear grind to the game.
(edited by Raine.1394)
Were people doing dailys before? yes. Were there umpteen billion posts saying dailys were a grind before the introduction of laurels? No. But now that you can actually get something for playing exactly like you did before its a grind?
You don’t play exactly as you did before the new dailies. With the new dailies you play for the new dailies. If you don’t you won’t achieve them. That’s pretty straightforward.
I don’t. I play the new dailies so as to get the new dailies. The old dailies were largely a product of of just playing the game…as it should be.
I play the game exactly as I did before. I did my dailys before everyday for the karma and 5 silver. They want to give me laurels now? Great. It didn’t make the dailys more of a grind, it’s the exact same process (well different process now, which was sorta stupid) takes 15 minutes to half hour. It added no grind, except in your own mind.yes, you are playing the new dailies for the new dailies not as a byproduct of simply playing the game. That is actually a statement of the problem with the new dailies, but you would have to understand gaming and reward to know the difference.
I find it amusing that you know why I do something better than I do. Game theory and skinner boxes are also pretty easy to understand, even for laymen, which you assume me to be. Perhaps you should enlighten the rest of the class with your wondrous knowledge of why we are all now doing something for a totally different reason than we were before. Hint…we have always done it for reward.
and what is up with the misquotes, I never even said half the stuff that is in those quotes
What Anet has done with the new dailies is move the grind from FotM to open world PvE. You are right that no one complained about the grind before with the dailies, but they are now. Think about the intent of laurels. It is a new currency to buy higher powered gear. You chase stat inflation with laurels. You grind to get them. That’s why you now see ‘grind’ in connection with dailies. It’s impossible for people to miss it even if they don’t fully understand where it’s coming from, i.e., vertical progression. Grind and Guild Wars really don’t go well together and that’s why players notice it and complain about it.
Were people doing dailys before? yes. Were there umpteen billion posts saying dailys were a grind before the introduction of laurels? No. But now that you can actually get something for playing exactly like you did before its a grind?
You don’t play exactly as you did before the new dailies. With the new dailies you play for the new dailies. If you don’t you won’t achieve them. That’s pretty straightforward.
I don’t. I play the new dailies so as to get the new dailies. The old dailies were largely a product of of just playing the game…as it should be.
I play the game exactly as I did before. I did my dailys before everyday for the karma and 5 silver. They want to give me laurels now? Great. It didn’t make the dailys more of a grind, it’s the exact same process (well different process now, which was sorta stupid) takes 15 minutes to half hour. It added no grind, except in your own mind.
yes, you are playing the new dailies for the new dailies not as a byproduct of simply playing the game. That is actually a statement of the problem with the new dailies, but you would have to understand gaming and reward to know the difference.
(edited by Raine.1394)
Were people doing dailys before? yes. Were there umpteen billion posts saying dailys were a grind before the introduction of laurels? No. But now that you can actually get something for playing exactly like you did before its a grind?
You don’t play exactly as you did before the new dailies. With the new dailies you play for the new dailies. If you don’t you won’t achieve them. That’s pretty straightforward.
There’s no required grind in guild wars 2.
Only for those who don’t understand vertical progression. Google it. Educate yourself and then we can talk.
(edited by Raine.1394)
Vertical progression is a non-optional gear grind plain and simple. It is counter to the stated philosophy of Anet for the game and, as such, is inexplicable. I don’t know what they were thinking and I no longer trust what they say.
Totally agreed.
Judging from the videos they are just a bunch of kids with little gaming experience making it up as the go. They have shown the propensity to turn on a dime without looking back when it comes to design philosophy. I don’t trust a word they say.
Totally disagreed. ArenaNet has proved to be a great MMO publisher during the last years [Guild Wars 1, City of Heroes, Aion (at first)] and it seemed like GW2 was going to be THE game.
I agree wholeheartedly that Anet seemed to be a great MMO publisher. After all, the game world and many design choices indicate that. Sadly, where they’ve chosen to take the game is not consistent with their stated philosophy and I believe inexperience in gaming is a factor in the choices they have made.
Vertical progression is a non-optional gear grind plain and simple. It is counter to the stated philosophy of Anet for the game and, as such, is inexplicable. I don’t know what they were thinking and I no longer trust what they say. Judging from the recent videos they are just a bunch of kids with little gaming experience making it up as the go. They have shown the propensity to turn on a dime without looking back when it comes to design philosophy. Again, I don’t trust a word they say.
(edited by Raine.1394)
They have invited and encouraged a toxic grinding culture, inexplicably, since 11/15. They know better as all the pre-release marketing demonstrates. It all remains a mystery to me at this point. It’s sad to see them devolve to the level at which they currently operate. They are basically making it up as they go along. Gone are the days of a consistent strong design philosophy guiding the evolution of the game.
The new dailies are counter-productive and counter-intuitive and they certainly have a negative impact on game culture. They are just another facet of Anet making it up as the move the game forward as opposed to evolving the game from a compelling design philosophy. We, sadly, are the victims of their choices in the matter.
Laurels are simply a new currency we didn’t need, implemented to move the gear grind treadmill out of one dungeon and closer to where players naturally play. There is no inherent need for a new currency; it’s simply Anet making it up as they go. Prior to 11/15 I had tremendous respect for the dev team and especially Colin. After that patch, not so much.
(edited by Raine.1394)