Guild Wars 2

Kardiamond.6952:

Recursivision.2367:

Let’s look at it this way.

Pre-nerf KR:

Potential for-
aoe damage and condition removal ~ every 10 seconds

on top of

aoe healing and condition removal ~ every 20 seconds

on top of

significant burst or cripple/bleeding on a low cd

What other single trait in the game offers that much for a first tier trait?
It was and still is almost a no-brainer.

Incendiary Powder -> 2 second burn on critical hti from any attack.
Hell with condition duration and precision, you can have perma burn on a single target. That’s like 500 more dps not affected by armor.

Invigorating Speed -> Vigor on swiftness.
With speedy kit, it’s perma swiftness. In sPvP this one of the best buff you can have.

Static Discharge -> bolt on toolbelt
Add 800-2000 damage on each toolbelt use.

Speedy kit -> perma swiftness
I would take speedy kit over kit refinement anytime.

Others class?

Ranger
Zephyr’s Speed You and your pet gain 2 seconds of quickness when you swap pets.
5 points, on demand quickness. The strongest effect in game.

I’m too lazy to find more.

But I could have cared less if they put it at 20 points, or even 30 points.

Anyway at 10 points I always take speedy kit over kit refinement.

Funy how our top build right now doesn’t even use KR, while you say it’s the best trait in the game.

I’m not saying it’s the best trait in the game. In the end, what I’m saying is it was a powerful trait, it still is. Only builds that relied on it actively are affected by this change. It has not hurt the viability of the engineer on the whole. And the builds that did rely on it are still viable although will require some adjusting.

I just can’t understand the idea that this any sort of slight to engineers or a nail in the coffin of any sort. As a class that was balanced and well off pre-patch I think that it’s fair that with a buff to most of the kits affected by kit refinement ( making them more usable in their own right) the we receive some balancing in the other direction with the trait that affects all those kits.

Engineer’s in a good place.

Varqov.6984:

thanks Recursivision, that eases my mind a bit. Now I just have to remember to count to 10. If I get bored before 10, I can just switch over to my pistol and shoot someone.

Eh, not sure if you’re doin’ it right…

Varqov.6984:

damny.9342:

Varqov.6984:

Kit Refinement did not get unreliable. It is a STANDARD 10 SECONDS ACROSS THE BOARD.

That’s what the patch notes said but it’s not what they actually coded. Grenade Kit and Elixir Gun have their own separate 20s cooldowns on top of the 10s cooldown on any Kit Refinement effect.

So, in reality, is it 20s (for EG and GK)+ 10s(for KR) = 30 seconds to get another free skill from the trait?

No, I believe that the two with 20 sec CD’s stayed so, but the other kits effects won’t proc during the 10 second global CD

Kardiamond.6952:

@Varqov

@Recursivion

A traits is interresting when it has some synergy with some builds, and that was the case.

And it still does.

Ayestes.1273:

Kardiamond.6952:

You don’t auto attack with kit. It’s a waste.

Kit aren’t rubbish, but just like Elem have to Attunement dance, we have to kit dance to be effective.

I hope the resonates with more people, especially in PvE.

That’s a generalization that’s no completely true. Flamethrower and elixir gun auto-attacks definitely have their uses. In PVP at least. They are situational and add to the engineer’s versatility. to ignore them would be silly.

If you’re fighting a single target Elixir Gun will give you a defensive edge compared to the pistol due to the added weakness and keep up comparable and often superior bleed stacks.

Flamethrower auto definitely has an advantage stacking conditions on lumped together enemies.

Let’s look at it this way.

Pre-nerf KR:

Potential for-
aoe damage and condition removal ~ every 10 seconds

on top of

aoe healing and condition removal ~ every 20 seconds

on top of

significant burst or cripple/bleeding on a low cd

What other single trait in the game offers that much for a first tier trait?
It was and still is almost a no-brainer.

Kimbald.2697:

Recursivision.2367:

Buffing the kits benefits both playstyles…
YOU STILL KITTEN GET ADDITIONAL HEALING AND CONDITION REMOVAL WITH KIT REFINEMENT

It needed a minor nerf because it WASN’T worth it to go without in your two example builds.

ONE trait that offered added 3 condition removals and healing!

So you’re saying that
- kit refinement wasn’t worth traiting except in 2 builds?
- kit refinement was overpowered?
- the changes to the kits balance out the loss of kit refinement no longer being reliable?

1. No, I’m saying that a lot of builds almost necessitated taking it because of how good it was. For example, in your FT/EG example- No other single trait comes close in value to 3 on demand condition removals + healing.

2. Not necessarily. But making it less effective does de-incentivize its use in order to facilitate more build diversity

3. Well, Yes. Buffs to the kits affected and it’s not like it’s useless now. you’re still getting significant condition removal with that build. You’re still getting nade damage etc.

Also you forgot about the significant buff to Super Elixir which also indirectly buffs Kit refinement

Buffing the kits benefits both playstyles…
YOU STILL KITTEN GET ADDITIONAL HEALING AND CONDITION REMOVAL WITH KIT REFINEMENT

It needed a minor nerf because it WASN’T worth it to go without in your two example builds.

ONE trait that offered added 3 condition removals and healing!

Kimbald.2697:

Recursivision.2367:

Explain to me though how KR is synonymous with versatility?

By defenition, Kit refinement gets better and more usefull, the more kits you use…

Since it also does something completely different for each kit, the seperate effects help you strenghten different aspects of your build.

In the same build, kit refinement can help your burst AND you healing and condition removal. Without any other trait or skill slot.
Just by working on the kits you already use.

I am NOT saying it’s a necessary trait for versatility.
I am saying that the trait, by it’s nature, is one of the most versatile we have acces too.
No other trait has the potential of working on so many different aspects of your build at once.

And it still does the EXACT same thing. The only difference is that they are outsourcing a portion of that versatility to the kits themselves instead of a single trait. Significant buffs to 3 of the 4 kits affected by the trait change. Now the versatility is in the kits instead of swapping them. This increased the versatility of engineers by making kit refinement less of a necessity.

Kimbald.2697:

Recursivision.2367:

Are you kidding? This is a point control game. I put the Super elixir down and there’s a kitten good chance I’m going to be in it for the duration unless I want my point contested.

And not all multi kit builds are affected— Elixir Gun/Bomb Kit build is unaffected and imo it’s one of the best combinations. And once again, 100 nades and condition removal are the only builds that incorporate kit refinement to a degree as to be hurt by this change. Sure, maybe a minor inconvenience to others.

You’re very right about being more stationary as point defender.
Very often you’ll stay pretty long in the light field of Super Elixir indeed.
I didn’t calculate that one in enough.
Point taken.

But did you just judge the entire engineer gameplay based upon a single role in spvp?

Kit refinement was a very good trait, for a LOT of engineers.
Look further than the one mini-game you play in this game
Spvp is important, but there are engineers outside of that too you know.

The change is more than a minor inconvenience to be honest.
If anything it introduced randomness on top of keeping track of several internal cooldowns already.
It hurts instant kit swapping a lot.

Just speaking for myself:
I use skills across kits and not within kits.
I chain confusion, or blinds, I use one damage cooldown after another from kit to kit. I chain blocks… Simply put: I don’t have time to take that new shared internal cooldown of 10 seconds into account.

Just countering your blanket statement that it hurts ALL multi-kit builds with another niche generalization.

Explain to me though how KR is synonymous with versatility?

Kimbald.2697:

In what type of fights do you stand still in the white circle for 10 to 20 seconds?
No serious type of combat that I know in this game allows you to do that…

As for Kit Refinement only hiting 100nades build.
No.
It hurts every single build using more than 1 kit, since it was the BEST trait for a versatile engineer build.

It’s not just that they nerfed one burst build, it’s that they nerfed engineer versatility.
That’s the part that gets me up in arms against this change.

Multi-kit builds were already the weaker engineer builds, and they just got weaker.
Just like all the good engineer builds are single purpose builds, the real versatile builds were weak enough as it was. No need to nerf them more.

100nades could have been adressed way easier, IF they wanted to do that (which I don’t think they shouldhave).

Are you kidding? This is a point control game. I put the Super elixir down and there’s a kitten good chance I’m going to be in it for the duration unless I want my point contested.

And not all multi kit builds are affected— Elixir Gun/Bomb Kit build is unaffected and imo it’s one of the best combinations. And once again, 100 nades and condition removal are the only builds that incorporate kit refinement to a degree as to be hurt by this change. Sure, maybe a minor inconvenience to others.

JohnDied.3476:

The engineer is not dead, it’s just having another seizure as the devs take take him off another machine in hopes of reviving him. Honestly, this class has been unfinished for six months, and the devs are probably going to take another six months to finish this class.

They are however going to do it their way. See, the engineer community is a stubborn one which, when faced with a class that was essentially broken, has made the most out of the working traits to the point of them being very powerful for our builds. The devs probably see this as exploitative and are taking some things away (like the omnom flamethrower).

You know what’s odd? Recently I’ve been hoping that Anet nerfs the kitten out of things like static discharge, and 100 nades. This is just so that when they do I hope that they make our rifle and grenades hit harder. I hope that they take away how med-kit procs on heal runes, maybe then those guys who like getting 20 stacks of might will realize that the weapons they’re buffing (pistol & flamethrower) do really terrible damage and need some buffs.

Maybe when we’ve had all of our “10 button mashing at the same time” combos (which take advantage of the ways this class is unfinished and broken) well be able to get some reasonable buffs and be a complete class. This is what I hope is what Anet does.

They might not though. They might just take everything away and give us some more minor Elixir gun, flamethrower and turret buffs that don’t fix our problems.

I don’t know why people have ever been convinced and that engineer was a dead class. IMO it’s always been one of the best balanced (at times OP) classes in the game.
In my opinion, a lot of people just struggle with the class and have a hard time figuring it out.

DDog.4350:

Recursivision.2367:

Seriously? This is the best patch engi’s have seen. The KR nerf really isn’t that big of a deal. The only build really effected is the gimmicky “100 nades” (not even really less viable, just requires a change a technique and more awareness, more brain power now required).

These changes really shouldn’t effect high level engi viability. It does make one gimmicky build more challenging and force some extra timing awareness on others.

It also removes reliable condition removal :o

Not really. For ONE kit setup, it reduces condition removal to around 2 conditions/20 seconds from around 3 conditions/20 seconds. So yes, a nerf to that. But at the same time, if you’re running that build, your Super Elixir is now healing for enough more to offset a portion of that cost, you got an awesome new blast finisher, and your flamethrower got a significant buff.

Seriously? This is the best patch engi’s have seen. The KR nerf really isn’t that big of a deal. The only build really effected is the gimmicky “100 nades” (not even really less viable, just requires a change a technique and more awareness, more brain power now required).

These changes really shouldn’t effect high level engi viability. It does make one gimmicky build more challenging and force some extra timing awareness on others.

I would run 4 kit but elixir R is just too kitten sweet to drop!

Well, I’d say it definitely depends on the build. Running a 3 kit build I still have just as many skills as an elementalist and I only run 3 kit builds. Then again, you could make a super simple elixir engi, although I feel they are not nearly as effective. Sure, elementalist’s have the added CD’s to worry about but the freedom to change kits at all times also takes a certain skill required of engineers.. For example, by the time an elementalist’s water attunement is off cooldown the know that the first three of those skills are also off cooldown.

With engi, on the other hand you have the potential to waste two whole seconds switching to bomb kit to find that smoke bomb is still on CD. Additionally we don’t get crazy kitten buffs every time we switch to a kit.

Additionally, building an engineer spec that works for you is a huge part of the challenge of playing engineer. It’s much less cookie cutter than elementalist which I think is a huge barrier for many.

Finally, I think that engineer offers a lot more challenge compared to reward in most cases than an elementalist and I think this shows in the number of engineers that actually play this game. All in all, I can say that I see a lot more decent ele’s that engi’s.

Here’s my bunker build I run very successfully:

Copy&paste:
http://www.intothemists.com/calc/?build=VVRw;2sPku0c-VQFx0;9;4999JJ2;03;00;050-53-UF1;3jwmAjwmA9cf

Tips:
About to die? Toss Elixir r and a big bomb right before you go down will usually lead to a rally.

If your getting focused hard try dropping them a around 30%, they’ll reset at 25% and you’ll rally with another toss elixir r and big bomb in the pocket.

Confusion is your key to damage in this build. Glass cannons fold like wet paper if they decide to power through it. Otherwise they’re completely shutdown.

Make sure to apply poison before enemies heal. Unleash that poison volley when they’re getting towards 50%. The shield toss is also excellent for interrupting heals when that poisons on CD.

To capture/contest points: Obviously you are going to want to knock your opponent off the point with either your shield bubble or that big ol’ bomb. Watch for stability. Once you manage to get them off the point, drop that supply crate right on top of them— point contested. The shield stun and glue bomb can also help in this regard, but are a little more situational.

Kit refinement+elixir gun=$$$$. Immobilized by a 100b warrior. Pop that elixir gun for a free super elixir to remove that immobilized and blast away with that #4.

In 1v1 situations it’s great to realize the strength of the elixir gun auto-attack. With the weakness and longer bleeds it’s definitely a better single target pick.

Your team support abilities are pretty awesome, although not easily apparent. In a coordinated team don’t forget that the elixir gun poison spray removes allies conditions. With kit refinement you also have two super elixirs, each being aoe condition removal and heals.

LOS is your friend. Too much heat on you start humping dem rocks at henge. Forces opponents into bomb range and forces opponents into using hard cc to take you out. Light ‘em up. If you know you can’t hold that point straight out anymore then start weaving between those rocks. Even against 3+ opponents you’ll be able to hold out unless they can land some solid cc on you. Remember: whenever you’re holding out in a 2v1 situation you are giving your team an advantage elsewhere. Even if you cant hold the point you can force them to deal with you. Harass, Harass, Harass.

If you want to trade offense for pure survivability then consider runes of the forge and possibly consider swapping elixir r for toolkit.

Get good at this build and you’ll see why it has been the most heavily nerfed build in guild wars 2 history.

nofo.8469:

Yeah, you have been up against bad rifle warriors. Even with the ideal spec (basically anything that doesn’t use rifles or grenades) its going to be an extremely tough fight.

Maybe in WvW a decked out glass cannon rifle warrior is an issue as they can almost one shot any spec. By and large though they are not an issue. Just dodge or reflect that kill shot and they’re the dead ones.

Also, don’t let yourself be engaged by one in the middle of a wide open field. LOS is one of the engis most powerful tools our skills really help to give us the upper hand in LOS situations.

Bomb kit and elixir gun are where it’s at.

Walorx.5129:

Good to see a fellow engineer in the tpvp scene! Good luck getting a team. If you’re interested, you can tryout for my all-engineer team, Engineered For Perfection [efp]. Shoot me a message ingame on Jan. 2nd once I get back to Georgia.

Cheers,
Vöz

So down for this.

The nerfs moreso affected PvE, PvP Engies mostly received buffs.[/quote]

This is true, however, bunker engi’s have definitely seen more devestating nerfs than any other spec. Then again, I have to agree that during BWE they were the most over-powered build out there. But nerfing smoke bomb in tick speed and radius, and then elixir r in CD and by reducing downed health pool, plus nerfs to runes of earth have made engi bunker less and less viable.

Meanwhile, guardian bunker ability remains almost untouched and ele bunker is still as viable as ever. I just think it’s an interesting evolution.

Then again, I think even at this point engi bunkers are highly underrated.

Bunker/Support engineer used to be one of the strongest specs in the game. That is, until they started nerfing it every patch. We lost condition output after beta, smoke bomb (previously one of the strongest skills in game) has been considerably toned down, elixir r is half as effective as it used to be but I’d still say it is one of the more competitive builds though: when played right. We’re all those nerfs warranted? It’s hard to say.

To be honest, I think they went a little too far. At this point it takes two moderately good glass cannons, a pair conatining a condition/trap ranger, or a single very good mesmer to kill me. Previously I would have said engis were the best bunkers in the game. Can’t claim that any more. Most would disagree that they ever were but... well, there’s not much I can do to convince you now.

You think you got nerfed, try relying on smoke bomb and toss elixir r!

To be fair though, smoke bomb was probably the strongest defensive skill in the game.

Can’t seem to figure out why you guys think you have to kill the bunkers. All you have to do is contest the point 1v1 and then stay alive. If you can’t stay alive against a bunker you might be doing something wrong.

So really, control is also a viable counter.

Also, as the above poster said atm most dps just faceroll their damage buttons and hope to kill their opponent. How many of you thieves have honestly even considered whittling away at the bunker before dropping your burst and cc. I mean, it seems pretty obvious to me but, honestly, I see so few thieves thinking outside the spam highest damage skill mold.

Get creative guise.

I am pretty sure that a majority of stats already affected down state. Isn’t it only stats from trait allocations that have changed? I mean, pretty significant, but not completely game changing.

Lyuben.2613:

We all love our engineers, but we don’t help them like this.

We help them by constantly reminding Arenanet to fix our issues, and fix our bugs.
You think they will fix kits if everyone is all lovey dovey about the engineer? Have you seen the other forums? They are cesspools of whining, and as they say ‘the squeaky wheel gets the grease’, and they are really squeaky.

Not saying they don’t deserve help but… our issue with kits has kind of existed for months.

I really hope this isn’t the attitude that everyone takes on these forums. sabotaging legitimate discussion just so that you can whine in hopes their class will be buffed.

Bunker Engi for top tier.
Haven’t seen many decent ones.
Someone who’s played against Cricket back me up here…

uh…

It appears to be you letting your mailbox go…

I don’t know what game you guys are playing. As a bunker engineer I can hold out better than a guardian in most cases. It takes two well coordinated glass cannons to take me down generally. Even against 3 I’m going to put up a really solid fight.

Did I mention that I’m also loads better at actually disputing and capturing points than just about any class. With all my KB’s and immobilizes it’s a piece of cake to knock enemies off points and cap them. Guardians are decent at this, but can’t come close to competing with the engineer.

Then again, I can’t really say I’ve fought many decent engineers either. Most are awful. It’s a class that takes a lot of dedication and training. Now, I’m hearing a lot of people crying about how unfair it is that some classes take more effort and skill than others. THAT’S ABSURD. You think that in games like DotA all of the characters have the exact same learning curve? Not at all. It’s great, it provides those who are looking for a challenging and engaging class something to enjoy.

In the past couple days I’ve also fought some very competent ele’s. And I’d say that is is another class that has a high skill cap.

Now, Necros need some tweaks and fixes to give them more viable options… but, again, keep in mind that Jon Peters did state that it was the hardest class to master just before release.

Yes, Balancing is going to be a never ending ordeal— but let’s be serious; we’ve got some drama queens around here.

Candiru.5279:

mod pls close this…pointless

I wouldn’t say that it’s really anymore pointless than the general whine threads.

medkit + tools. Best heal slot in the game.

Lyuben.2613:

Recursivision.2367:

Lyuben.2613:

CptCosmic.3156:

healing turret is the best heal when you dont have any traits in any other healing skill.
you place it, pick it up again instantly and it goes on a 15second cooldown.

As a self heal maybe, but its regeneration is the lowest of the low, and since it is of large durations, anyone in your group who has useful regeneration, won’t get theirs to tick for a long while.

Every second spent with healing turret giving regeneration, harms anyone who has useful regeneration to offer.

If you want a short cooldown heal, put 20 points in tools and use med kit for a 16s heal, or 30 points for a 14s heal.

Or even 10 points in alchemy for a 20s heal with elixir H- which has a higher base heal.

Unless I’m mistaken, the highest ticking regen should have priority and tick before the lower ones.

Tested that, and it seems no.

I used the healing turret while fighting the engineer in HoTM, and then used the elixir gun, and my ticks were still 130.

hrrm, interesting.

Lyuben.2613:

CptCosmic.3156:

healing turret is the best heal when you dont have any traits in any other healing skill.
you place it, pick it up again instantly and it goes on a 15second cooldown.

As a self heal maybe, but its regeneration is the lowest of the low, and since it is of large durations, anyone in your group who has useful regeneration, won’t get theirs to tick for a long while.

Every second spent with healing turret giving regeneration, harms anyone who has useful regeneration to offer.

If you want a short cooldown heal, put 20 points in tools and use med kit for a 16s heal, or 30 points for a 14s heal.

Or even 10 points in alchemy for a 20s heal with elixir H- which has a higher base heal.

Unless I’m mistaken, the highest ticking regen should have priority and tick before the lower ones.

Bomb kit is honestly worth taking for smoke bomb alone. Such win.

Let me put it this way. On every other server I joined yesterday there was someone crying about how OP engineers are.

Are they really OP? Nah…
But they’re strong enough to seriouslykitten people off.

I think they’re one of the most balanced classes atm. If anything they just need a minor boost to pistol dadmage, otherwise they are very capable.

You also realize that it’s perma vigor too right? This is the strongest thing the engineer has right now.

Yeah, let’s just give them baseline perma swiftness and vigor. That sounds fair.

This is great the way it is. This thread on the other hand, is just silly.

Do you guys not realize how easy it was to abuse the mine blast finisher? With just two engineers can you imagine the might stacks…. Much less even more engineers.

It’s OP in PVE and PVP.

I can’t imagine why people are crying so much.

Some bugs? Yes.
Game breaking? No.
Mine fix? Not a big deal. Everyone knew it was coming anyway.

Truth is, engineer has a number of viable builds. Probably more than many other classes do. If you want to faceroll, roll a different class. Engineer has a a pretty steep learning curve.

Ditch the cleric for the shamans amulet. No point in heals if you don’t have the toughness. Besides, you’ll find the condition damage goes a lot further than the power.

This is what you want.

Let it be our little secret, mmk?