Guild Wars 2

skowcia.8257:

It cancel itself if someone stand next to wall or goes invis.. I hope that stuff will get fixed.

I don’t think it’s ever going to chase someone down while they’re in stealth. Would be a little strong >.>

Kidel, pls. Mallyx is one of—if not the—strongest legend in every game mode. Having that trait baseline would both make the legend necessary in PvP while trivializing the corruption line.

Zenith.7301:

Recursivision.2367:

Yeah, if you do the numbers on unrelenting assault, you’ll see that you can pull off some pretty ridiculous damage on a single target. As a PvP’er I can see it getting toned down a little bit at some point. It’s just going to be devastating 1v1.

I don’t really PvE much, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the damage is as impressive there as it is in PvP.

They better split pvp/pve balance with that skill. That skill alone is what’s keeping revenant competitive in PvE.

I’m surprised they went with both a huge damage buff and evade. I feel like if they had just done one or the other it would be in a decent position—now it’s a skill with huge reward and very little risk attached.

Yeah, if you do the numbers on unrelenting assault, you’ll see that you can pull off some pretty ridiculous damage on a single target. As a PvP’er I can see it getting toned down a little bit at some point. It’s just going to be devastating 1v1.

I don’t really PvE much, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the damage is as impressive there as it is in PvP.

skowcia.8257:

Um..warriors arent that good. Thing is they will cc like no tomorrow..and we all know revenant abilities to stunbreak outside Shiro (read it as 0) cus reasons..

I still trying to undertand why pain absord didnt become stunbreak.

Because it’s already incredibly strong, I ’d imagine.

Guys, pls.

You can make anything sound overpowered if you want.

One could point out that revenant has the potential to do over 18k damage (in PvP) while evading on a might-stacking attack that will chase down any opponent (unrelenting assault).

But, why don’t we just see how it all plays first?

Bunker/support revenant is better than most people think. I think Supcutie was surprised when he couldn’t get my health below 75%.

I like that the block on staff about lines up with mind wrack cooldown

I didn’t find anyone I could really play up the support aspect with though. It should be interesting to see how effective it is with the fixed modifiers for an additional 60% or so outgoing healing.

Kodiak.3281:

What you’re suggesting already exists in the game, and it doesn’t work at all in WvW. Currently Necromancers get a skill called “Well of Power” which when placed pulses stability and breaks stun (and also converts conditions). However when you use it to break stun, you are often CC’d right after and the stability isn’t long enough to keep you going through multiple CCs. I can make a video showing this as I had a similar idea for this when playing my Necro and I dubbed it the “Ghetto Road” because 1 second of stability is functionally useless in WvW but once in 10 times it’d work the way I needed it to.

Again, Well of Power does not pulse stability. It’s one second to the caster.

That’s 1 stack, for 1 second total, for one person.

There is nothing in the game currently comparable to Inspiring Reinforcements.

Vennyhedgie.5369:

Recursivision.2367:

Vennyhedgie.5369:

Recursivision.2367:

Mallyx also doesn’t require corruption at all. The only reason you’d take it is to absolutely maximize resistance (selfishly)

Yes, it does. It’s so much stronger that way. It may be selfish but the longer you live the longer you can support your allies.

If you absolutely can’t live without it, and you’re going to die without it, then take it.

However, if you really need that much resistance up-time to survive as long as everyone else in your front-line party, something else is probably the problem.

Roaming, I wouldn’t hesitate to take it.

Didn’t say it was for frontlie, I actually played a glassy hammer build in the backline, sniping people with hammer 2 while helping my allies taking all their condis as often as I possibly could

Well, in that case it would be more useful. OP did ask about being on the frontline though.

Vennyhedgie.5369:

Recursivision.2367:

Mallyx also doesn’t require corruption at all. The only reason you’d take it is to absolutely maximize resistance (selfishly)

Yes, it does. It’s so much stronger that way. It may be selfish but the longer you live the longer you can support your allies.

If you absolutely can’t live without it, and you’re going to die without it, then take it.

However, if you really need that much resistance up-time to survive as long as everyone else in your front-line party, something else is probably the problem.

Roaming, I wouldn’t hesitate to take it.

Kodiak:

I’m not convinced you did more good than bad spamming UA in those fights between teleporting people out of bombs, porting them further away while chasing, and at the end almost getting your group wiped by teleporting the enemy group behind yours in the choke. It also put you in some really bad situations. Not saying it doesn’t have situational uses.

Pain absorption should give you around 6-7 seconds of resistance in a group, assuming there are conditions going around.

MP is also useless when you can easily have >70% crit chance with fury.

I’d also have to see some evidence that spontaneous destruction is going to affect more than one person, before I’d ever even consider corruption.

Even retribution is providing more group synergy with the ferocity aura.

Kodiak.3281:

Recursivision:
Inspiring Reinforcement has no place on the front line because you are forever moving in WvW. Basically the new IR is a field that so long as you stay in that field you get Stability which cause you’re always moving you’ll never be able to sit in that field. There’s another skill that currently works like this, Well of Power, and you can try it out in WvW on the front and you’ll see that it doesn’t work at all either.

First off, Well of Power is nothing alike. It does one stack of stability, one time, for you alone. Second, if your front-line is just plowing straight ahead full speed 24/7 you clearly don’t need any stability.

Kodiak.3281:

Jalis basically doesn’t have a place in WvW anymore after the nerf. The only group support we can bring is through Herald and Malyx now and Malyx requires Corruption leaving you with a Corruption/Retribution/Herald build which removes the very powerful stun removal on legend swap. I still wouldn’t count out Shiro though. Super Speed on demand is pretty crazy as a legend swap to get back in position then back to Glint.

Mallyx also doesn’t require corruption at all. The only reason you’d take it is to absolutely maximize resistance (selfishly), but Pain absorption is going to be your most used skill anyway, giving you about 7 seconds of resistance either way. The only other trait in the line that would be useful to you would be the damage modifier.

I’m skeptical about the Glint legend being particularly useful. The only boon not already in abundance in a typical front-line comp would be protection with a small amount of downtime, and none of the actives look particularly useful—You’d pretty much be taking it for the heal skill. However, if you could do without, I think you’d be bringing more to the party with Mallyx/Jalis and putting your points into Invocation/Retribution/Herald.

Would recommend something like this.

Taking herald as your third, with:
Hardening Persitence/Radiant Revival
Harmonize Continuity
Enhanced Bulwark

Kodiak.3281:

Shiro is actually amazing in a zerg build because it’s the most survivable stance we have now.

Riposting Shadows is probably the most OP broken thing ever. It removes slowing Conditions. It breaks Stun. It Evades for the duration. AND it restores 50 Energy allowing you to dodge roll right after. For 30 energy. The only down side is it’s backwards so if you’re on the front line that can be bad because you usually want to keep going forward not back. However on the back line it’s tantamount to invincibility in most cases because no one and nothing can catch you mobility wise other than a physical wall.

Flipping on Impossible Odds is like watching one of those movies where you got a super speed person walking around. Super Speed is basically the same as 33% movement speed out of combat only, in combat so you have total battle field mobility with it. It’s pretty amazing and you can flip it on and off as needed.

After two Revenant weekends with the Revenant I’m pretty sure they haven’t even looked at balancing Revenant for WvW at all. I can sit there with Pain Absorption in Malyx and just feed off Cow Trebs and Fire Mortars. At one point I had something like 30 stacks of Burning with 10 seconds of Resistance up. Unyielding Anguish…well I’ll just let you watch the video what you can do with Unyielding Anguish. Meanwhile they make changes like Inspiring Reinforcements which is just awful for WvW now. Do you see a single point in that video where I really stop moving to stand in Inspiring Reinforcement? People have this idea in their heads that a lot of CC can be avoided but you can see in the first 10 seconds there most cases CC that gets you are dropped instantly and right in front of your face lol.

Well, to be fair on the Inspiring reinforcements note, you are playing back-line in those videos. It does still have potential on the front-line. Shiro, on the other hand, is relatively useless in a front-line comp where you actually have to bring some group support competitive with a guardian or warrior. Which at this point is going to leave you somewhere between Jalis, Mallyx, and Glint.

That said, it would be nice to have the Herald trait Enhanced Bulwark add an additional stack of stability when you apply stability, as opposed to when it is applied to you, so that it affects allies too. Although I’m not sure we’ll see that happen, that’d make the revenant a strong compliment to warrior and guardian.

Kidel.2057:

How much is the icd currently?

1 second.

Knox.8962:

I spent the first Revenant preview capturing video of the skills for animation times. The sword stuff I added in during the BWE. It is possible that I missed something, but those times should be accurate.

Knox, can you look over some damage calculation I did? It’s my first time doing this, not sure if I’m doing it right. My math and build are on this page.

Let’s not. That wouldn’t be fun for anyone.

skowcia.8257:

We will find out next beta. But that extra stab 6sec stab on a dodge and aoe reveal..hmm..will be hard to give up +due to swiftness you dont have to run traveler anymore.

As for the heal, if you get 5k off it (2k initial..) you can count it as success as thats basically the same amount as Jalis one. If its insta which work also under cc it wont be a problem i believe.

That stab trait is pretty strong. With energy sigils that’s a whole lot of not getting CC’d. Leaves some pretty tough choices trait wise.

I’m afraid of buffs to salvation to make it more viable outside of heal-botting. Would make the decision way too hard.

All of the other trait lines are pretty strong. Personally, from a PvP perspective I find the Herald traits to be the weakest by far, the shield to be okay, the dragon stance to be somewhat mediocre, and it’s heal to be easily countered. On the other hand, the F2 is really nice.

I’m already having a tough time choosing between stability on dodge, resistance on mallyx skills, the damage from devestation, and 100% crit chance with fury.

Overall, I don’t think I’m going to use it. And, if I do, I won’t be using dragon stance.

PvP and WvW here, as are at least a couple of the other people saying it’s fine. Please demonstrate the trouble you are having in a video so that we can see more closely, thanks.

Revenant has as much or more protection than any other class. The protection on hard CC trait is really strong, and the herald f2 gives you 1/4th uptime alone (plus regen). You get stability on dodge.

The staff block is a 2 second block (that’s the same duration as shelter, and has more uptime than engineer’s gear shield) on a 10 second CD. That’s 20% uptime on block. And it blinds.

Swap to sword/sword, evade for a couple seconds while doing big damage, into another block on sword, dodge a couple times, swap staff and block again into another big damage evade.

Revenant has more block than guardian over a long enough period. And potential for evades on par with mesmer.

It has no totally immunity to direct damage (like endure pain and signet of stone, which both still are vulnerable to Condi’s) but has immunity to Condi’s through huge resistance availability.

Actually, I take that back. The dragon stance heal skill gives you 4 seconds immunity to all direct and condi damage.

Really, I hate to say it, but it’s a learn to play issue at this point. The only reason I don’t feel bad about saying it, is because everyone is in the same boat.

Edit: er. Same thing as above. Hehe.

If you’re casually throwing jade winds into your rotation after using every single weapon skill, that’s your problem. Also, you could switch legends at that point and be right back at 50. I’m not seeing a problem.

I had a lot of success in PvP last beta, personally, and I can admit I’m nowhere near hitting the skill cap for the profession.

Revenant actually has pretty kitten solid defenses at the moment. Running staff sword/sword you have a 2 second block on a 10 second cooldown, a 2 second block on a 15 second cooldown, a high damage skill with built in evade on a 10 second cooldown, and another on a 20 second cooldown. That’s just the weapon skills. We can talk about how mallyx hard counters melee builds and Condi’s too if you’d like.

The recent changes are going to be pretty huge by themselves. Energy doesn’t need to be touched.

If the class can be balanced as it is, there’s not really an issue. And, well, it should be easier to balance this way anyway.

Kidel.2057:

Wasted chance for the first aoe resistance in the game
Could be traded with that aoe protection on healing skill that basically kills Glint’s heal.

Mesmers have a trait for AoE resistance on glamours >.>

skowcia.8257:

Valfaros.6908:

I was using this skill a lot it does in pvp like 5-7k so there is something off

It has basically the same damage as surge of the mist now. In pvp with 88 crit chance i wasnt able to land more than 7k on zerker warrior. All 9 hits mind you and all of them critted. There is no doubt that something is off in this math.

Ah, I must be wrong then. Darn, that would have been nice.

WTB Super PvE Hero 2 Check Maths

I’m going to attempt to do some calculations on Unrelenting Assault pre-buff damage using a build similar to what I was running roaming in WvW.
I’m not 100% sure if this is right, please correct me if I’m wrong.

With the 15% stat bonus from Embrace the Darkness and fury, we’re looking at:

3180 power
100% crit chance
~ 270% crit damage
damage modifiers: 7%, 7%, 5%, 5%, 3% (per condi)

The pre-buff Unrelenting Assault co-efficient is 3.85.
Sword weapon strength is 1050.

The damage calculation is:
Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)

So that gives us:
(1050) * 3180 * (3.85) / 2500 (Arbitrary armor value) = 5142

Given that we have 100% crit chance, we can flat out multiply this times our crit damage (Note: I don’t think this even includes the 150 ferocity bonus from Assassin’s Presence):

5142 (2.7) = 13,883

Adding our damage modifiers:

13,833(1.05)(1.05)(1.07)(1.07)(1.03) = 17,984

with 5 condis, or using the 2% per upkeep point from Herald while using Embrace the Darkness:

13,833(1.05)(1.05)(1.07)(1.07)(1.15) = 20,079

+ 3 procs from Shiro heal at about 1000 per

23,000

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

I have yet to hear any real reason why people think weapon skills need both a cooldown and energy cost, or why they’re okay with the current energy cost. And I absolutely do think that it’s possible to balance the class without tying energy to everything. Why do you think it isn’t?

And, yes, it is entirely too easy to put yourself in a position where you can do nothing but autoattack. I’m merely advocating to make it less so. Currently, to avoid putting yourself in a position where you can do nothing but autoattack (i.e. to conserve energy), you need to… do nothing but autoattack. Because everything uses energy. Do you want to improve the class, or not?

First, the burden is on you to prove that it needs to be changed (i.e., the class can’t be balanced as it is).

And that was my question, you turned it around: why can’t revenant be balanced with energy on weapon skills? There’s no reason to change it if this is possible.

And your using hyperbole. Really? If I do anything other than auto attack I’m going to end up with 0 energy?

Sure, you’re changes would make the class stronger. In fact, utility energy use would have to be retuned across the board. And it would also dumb the class down.

Or, you know, we could just balance damage and energy numbers as it is now.

I’m not too familiar with the damage calculations, etc. But when they say they boost the damage by 30%, does that mean the modifier has been increased 30%?

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Again, I don’t know how the skill actually works …. disregard what I said.

This ^

He does have a point though. With both the damage increase and the evade, I’ll be abe to one shot people with close to 0 risk.

It’s going to be pretty cheesy.

It’s right in the title. AoE stun break and reveal. You’re pretty much forced to use it as one or the other.

If I use it to stun break a basi out of stealth, I’ve really only added a second or two to the reveal. If I use it to counter play stealth I’m down a stunbreak. I’m also losing out on fury.

It’s probably applied after revive.

edit: jk, it definitely does say “while reviving”. Can’t wait to troll revive people with that combined with unyielding anguish.

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

Recursivision.2367:

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

Please explain why weapons have energy cost, again. When you were designing this class, did nobody say, not once, “hey Roy, you know if you use the Jalis taunt, elite, Shiro elite, etc, right after switching to the legend, you can do nothing but autoattack for several seconds?”

Y’know, maybe instead of blaming others for their mistakes they said “Hey, it might not be the best idea to use Jade Winds right when I switch to Shiro because then I’ll have no energy left!”

If I’m playing thief and I heartseeker 4 times in a row and then don’t have the initiative to stealth I’m not blaming the mechanic. That’s all on me.

Likewise, if I’m thoughtlessly burning all my weapon skills on cooldown or toggling upkeeps for several seconds and I then find my options limited, that’s on me.

It’s supposed to make you think, and add a layer of strategy where you’re forced to weigh the cost and benefit of each action. That’s the point.

I don’t disagree with what you said about balancing energy use, but you’re missing the point. Comparing it to Thief is unfair, because Thief utility skills don’t burn Initiative. If all Thief skills, weapon or otherwise, burned Initiative, it would be a valid comparison. Thief weapon skills also have no cooldowns. Initiative is their cooldown. In the case of Revenant, oftentimes you’re facing both cooldown and energy consumption across all skills — not just weapons or utilities. You can think of Thief this way: weapons consume Initiative. Utilities consume time. On the flipside, you can think of Revenant this way: weapons consume everything. Utilities consume everything. Heals, utilities, elites. All of them.

If you want to eat my energy to burn weapon skills, fine. If you want to eat my energy to burn utility skills, fine. If you want to do both, you can’t make skills that completely shut the entirety of the class down, weapons and all.

Is there a single thief skill that prevents every other skill on the bar from being used? And I don’t mean weapons. I mean everything. Nope. Aside from channels, which is completely different, there is not.

Yeah, it’s punishing. It has a high skill cap.

That’s not a problem, that’s just a fact of the class.

Rygg.6237:

mexay.3902:

Rygg.6237:

The meta for pugs will more than likely be S/S+Staff, Ventari/Glint with Devastation, Invocation and Herald, you have condi cleanse on Ventari. If you need range you’ll just have to switch staff for Hammer, that change to rapid lacerations just made S/S AA camping even more mandatory for DPS than it already was.

I think you mean Shiro/Mallyx Sword/Axe Staff Devastation Invocation Herald.

Shiro and Mallyx legends offer the highest dps increases within the current meta and the boons that Glint offers are okay, but other classes give them out too. You still get the F2 for taking Herald. Axe offhand because it has quite a high damage modifier on 4, though I dont know how much use this skill will get.

Camping AA may not be likely either with UA having quite high damage (does more than the auto)

Typical rotation will likely be Upkeep Skill, UA, Auto. Legend swap, repeat. Activating Facet of nature basically off CD.

Vicious lacerations wont be taken, the AoE ferocity trait will. Its ~5% damage increase for your whole party at 100% crit chance iirc. Better than a personal 10.

Rechecked and you just need 1 Sword for Vicious Lacerations to work, still the OH Sword will be better than Axe because of the Block, but yeah Axe OH is better I agree with you there.

However in PuG situations you can’t rely on other professions to stack might (I’ve seen Eles that do not know how to do it, and if there’s no PS warrior you’re on your own), so it’s mandatory to use herald, besides you’re forgetting something the only 3 traits that have damage modifiers are in Devastation, Invocation and Herald, all of those are better than Maniacal Persistence because you already have a high enough critical chance with the ammount of fury you have plus traits, gear and food, the only 2 wothwhile traits for PvE from corruption are Rampant Vex and Maniacal Persistance and that’s just if the mobs tend to move around and again damage modifiers>crit chance modifiers as you already will hit 80% crit chance and around 190-200% crit damage.

Unrelenting Assault is a loss in DPS since 1) it’s not up 100% of the time, however it’ll provde nice burst and some might 2) you can’t cancel the channel 3) it has a built in evade now which kind of lets you have an oh kitten button if needed be 4) it’s not usable in all situations, as it hits various targets and not just only 1, Vicious Lacerations was changed to deal 2% extra DAMAGE per stack (10% total) instead of critical chance, your party will more than likely also run zerker+power/precision food, using facet of darkness is more useful than running assassin’s presence since you give high fury uptime and if the party already is at 80% crit chance it’s an overall DPS loss if you minimize your potential DPS.

Malyx utilities aren’t good for PvE as they’re focused in “managing” conditions and it’s not that effective, maybe it’ll be more effective with the trait that gives Resistance+Facet of Nature, Unyielding Anguish will get you hate if you use it and the skills don’t have effects that are overall desired in group content that exists at least up to date.

If you run Corruption instead of Invocation you’ll be losing personal might and fury uptime, plus you have 1 damage modifiers while under the effects of fury on Invocation: ferocious agression, and roiling mists gets you to 70% crit chance alone if you have base 50% crit chance and fury. Besides equilibrium works as a sort of subpar healing signet since most of the time you’ll be jumping around 40-60% energy.

Mallyx elite give you a 15% boost to all stats, and pain absorption is awesome group condi management. That’s pretty darn good for pve.

Griffith.7238:

Zafken.1708:

If you have another rev using the glint elite, its quite a bit of time.

I meant as an individual ,but yes with allies giving you Protection.

Stacking protection with f2 and the boon duration from the elite upkeep could probably stack quite a bit too.

Hammerguard.9834:

I’m not a fan of the Jalis changes. Why are the legends becoming so much more niche? Like Jalis will in no circumstances ever be used for damage now. Players are going to camp on a their desired stances even more now cause each legend is only capable of doing one thing. Ventari was already in this position and now Jalis is right there with him. This is horrible for the class.

I’m not seeing it.

If damage is really all your concerned about you’re probably going to be alternating Mallyx and Shiro on CD for maximum up-time on their upkeep skills.

Nothing is stopping you from using other legends, but… if your goal is as one-dimensional as “Max DPS” there is generally going to be one single best solution.

xarallei.4279:

Griffith.7238:

Kidel.2057:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Kidel.2057:

Since so many are asking for condi cleanse I’m sure it will be considered. Shiro+Glint has none.

Revenant as a whole is designed to not have much condition cleanse. That’s not to say there won’t be any tweaks for removal, but it won’t be any large changes. can’t have everything.

Something would be great ahah
At least to make powerbuilds viable on pve.

There is Jalis, Ventari, and Staff.

All of which are not optimal for max dps. I don’t think there is a single other class that has to sacrifice damage for a condi cleanse. Unlike other classes, Rev doesn’t have the ability to freely choose its heals and utilities. You are stuck with an entire legend and all of its utilities, whether you want them or not.

Sure there is. Check the meta dungeon builds on mettabattle. Almost none of them have any condition cleanse in order to max out DPS.

Kodiak.3281:

Inspiring Reinforcement: Decreased the stability per pulse from 6 seconds to 1 second. Increased the recharge from 5 seconds to 10 seconds and its energy cost from 25 to 30.

This pretty much kills Jalis for WvW. Stability is already incredibly limited on the Revenant as is with no other skills adding multiple stacks of Stability for any notable duration. Inspiring Reinforcement was the #1 thing keeping it a viable contender with Shiro.

Most cases when on the run (which you are constantly moving in WvW) Inspiring Reinforcement was the only thing that was going to get you through with Stability. On the run, you are only affected by a single stack of Stability. Standing in the field generated is not an option in the highly mobile world of WvW where mobility = Life.

At this stage there’s no point going Jalis over Shiro which will provide you with a far superior Stun Break (evasion, condi removal, stun break, and endurance return) for far less energy and access to Super Speed on demand for repositioning. Our Offensive stance just became the most defensive.

This also sends us to the back line in WvW permanently in large groups because we also lack the Stability to keep up with and hang on the Front Line now as well.

1 second of Stability functionally speaking doesn’t work in WvW.

I agree that it seems a bit overkill. A reduction to 3 seconds wouldn’t have phased me, but I’m not certain it’ll be worth casting WvW, especially if it isn’t changed to start pulsing faster. On the other hand, 6 seconds + the possible boon duration is a bit much.

It was never really meant to be—or that functional as—a pre-buff. You drop it to prevent allies from being cc’d within its area, which 1 second stab accomplishes. However, a couple more seconds would provide a nice little margin for error.

I am excited for the changes to staff though.

I agree with Wandelaar, revenant is already strong in PvP. Even bunker/support rev is strong if played right. There are a couple skills that really aren’t that functional as it is now, but most of these suggestions would make the class completely broken or require a complete retuning of the whole profession.

Revenant is not as weak as most people here seem to think. Give it some time, get some more playtime under your belt, see what other people can so with the class, let revenant settle in, and then I think people will see revenant is in a pretty good place.

uhohhotdog.3598:

You’re still assuming that you only swap at 0 energy. You’re still not accounting for upkeeps that take energy which means that 300 isn’t 300. There will also be times when your energy is at 100 and aren’t spending it because you don’t spend just because you have it. You’re still not taking into account that people need to use utilities when they need them not just when they have the energy available.

I’m not saying we need double energy or anything like that.

Actually, I counted a full 40 energy wasted on swap as I mentioned (so wasteful!). Upkeep can be counted in as one of your utilities or your elite, as that’s all they are.

And yeah, people need utilities when they need them, that’s no different than any class, but you can’t always have access to every utility.

I just don’t see any reason energy needs to be changed. A lot of the gripes seems to amount to amount to “I’m being punished for poor energy management, make this easier and more forgiving.”

What makes revenant gameplay so interesting are all the tradeoffs:
- Use of weapon skills vs saving to invest in utilities (forces you to think before spamming skills on cool down)
- Staying in one legend vs swapping for free energy
- Depleting energy in current stance to maximize energy vs a quick swap
- Saving energy defensive cooldowns vs going all out on offensive pressure
- etc.

Suggestions to remove any of these choices (e.g. removing weapon skill costs) or trivialize them by increasing energy across the board don’t address balance, they just make the class simpler. Balance (when honestly, we don’t even really know where rev stands at the moment) can be achieved by tweaking numbers on a skill by skill basis, without dumbing it down.

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

Please explain why weapons have energy cost, again. When you were designing this class, did nobody say, not once, “hey Roy, you know if you use the Jalis taunt, elite, Shiro elite, etc, right after switching to the legend, you can do nothing but autoattack for several seconds?”

Y’know, maybe instead of blaming others for their mistakes they said “Hey, it might not be the best idea to use Jade Winds right when I switch to Shiro because then I’ll have no energy left!”

If I’m playing thief and I heartseeker 4 times in a row and then don’t have the initiative to stealth I’m not blaming the mechanic. That’s all on me.

Likewise, if I’m thoughtlessly burning all my weapon skills on cooldown or toggling upkeeps for several seconds and I then find my options limited, that’s on me.

It’s supposed to make you think, and add a layer of strategy where you’re forced to weigh the cost and benefit of each action. That’s the point.

uhohhotdog.3598:

Recursivision.2367:

uhohhotdog.3598:

Recursivision.2367:

skowcia.8257:

Knighthonor.4061:

A solution is to simply make it like GW1 energy but with a slower regen. Start at full and low regen.

And why not start with 100%, keep energy on swap if it was above 50%, reduce some energy cost on wep skills (max 10), maybe upkeeps too and keep current regeneration?

Probably because it’s not necessary. From my experience with revenant in PvP and WvW I have no reason to believe that anything about energy mechanics needs to change.

Some energy reduction on certain weapon skills might be reasonable, but I don’t see any evidence to indicate that the revenant needs more access to energy to make it viable in these game modes.

Seriously? Compare it to other classes and their cooldowns on utilities. On every other you can use at LEAST 3 utility skills per minute plus an elite every 3 without having to sacrifice weapon skills. You cannot do that on the current revenant.

Srsly.

Let’s look at some numbers. In a fairly ideal world:
50 starting energy
5 * 60 = 300 passive regen per minute
5 * 50 = 250 from legend swaps, approximately on cooldown with a little wiggle room
——————————————
600

150 – A rough estimate of using staff skills on cooldown
50 – For an elite use
150 – For da homies (Energy lost to mismanagement/swapping with remaining energy/Heal skill)
250 – For 7 * 35 utility skill usage (on the higher end of utility energy costs)
———————————————-
600

Of course, this is a fairly skilled player, playing efficiently in terms of swapping legends frequently and not leaving large amounts of energy when swapping. But your take on it is way off base. Even playing extremely sloppy you’d be wrong.

I think a lot of the problem is just poor management by players, such as sitting in upkeep skills.

edit: forgots a word

You’re assuming a whole lot of things here. You don’t only swap legends when you run out of energy. You swap when you need a utility on that legend. Your weaponskills costs are off. On staff using on cooldown your usage will be 195. On mace/axe that number would be 225 roughly on cooldowns. If you use an upkeep skill you’re not generating any energy, you’re losing energy so your energy regen numbers are going to be lower. You’re assuming you’re going to use the utilities when you have energy rather than when you need it.

If I plan on using a utility in one stance why am I going to switch just to maybe get 50 energy in a perfect scenario?

Sure, like I said that was a pretty ideal scenario. Nothing impossible though.

On the other hand, let’s look at a worst case scenario:

50 starting
300 Base Regen
50 from one legend swap (Very low end)
——————————————
400 energy per minute

200 weapon skill (Very high end)
50 for da homies (Less than in the best case example because you’re only swapping once. This includes two heal skills and swapping while you sill have 40 enery left—essentially wasting that energy)
100 for three 35 energy utilities
50 for one elite skill
——————————————
400 energy spent

So, even in a worst case scenario, revenant is outperforming the three utilities per minute and 1 elite per three minutes mentioned in the post I was responding to.

Managing energy is part of the skill required by the class. It is meant to be limiting—that’s the whole point. It has drawbacks and advantages which are represented by the current system. I think it’s pretty tightly tuned overall.

Knighthonor.4061:

If you were lead developer for Revenant, how would you have redesigned the Energy resource system?

I’d leave it just like it is

skowcia.8257:

ronpierce.2760:

Artaz.3819:

Maybe instead of removal, Resistance boon should just be more common than on just in Demon Stance with one ability. Example, give Replenishing Despair a 3s Resistance boon with a 10s ICD.

Then there is some opponent counterplay.

Problem is, there is WAY too much boon removal right now to just sit around with absolutely no way to get rid of burns, of example. It doesn’t take much down-time on resistance to completely melt you.

Some people dont realize that. They also forgetting that on release their will be another Mallyx rev to keep their resistance in check. Ele will get pulsing boon removal on warhorn and who knows what else other specs gonna bring to the table.

What ele skill is that again?

Mournilg.4870:

Stability not working is a bug, it should be fixed soon.
The use of the trait that strip 2 charges of stability is also in cause because of the pulses.
Don’t worry it will not stay as it is ^^

Where was this stated again?

uhohhotdog.3598:

Recursivision.2367:

skowcia.8257:

Knighthonor.4061:

A solution is to simply make it like GW1 energy but with a slower regen. Start at full and low regen.

And why not start with 100%, keep energy on swap if it was above 50%, reduce some energy cost on wep skills (max 10), maybe upkeeps too and keep current regeneration?

Probably because it’s not necessary. From my experience with revenant in PvP and WvW I have no reason to believe that anything about energy mechanics needs to change.

Some energy reduction on certain weapon skills might be reasonable, but I don’t see any evidence to indicate that the revenant needs more access to energy to make it viable in these game modes.

Seriously? Compare it to other classes and their cooldowns on utilities. On every other you can use at LEAST 3 utility skills per minute plus an elite every 3 without having to sacrifice weapon skills. You cannot do that on the current revenant.

Srsly.

Let’s look at some numbers. In a fairly ideal world:
50 starting energy
5 * 60 = 300 passive regen per minute
5 * 50 = 250 from legend swaps, approximately on cooldown with a little wiggle room
——————————————
600

150 – A rough estimate of using staff skills on cooldown
50 – For an elite use
150 – For da homies (Energy lost to mismanagement/swapping with remaining energy/Heal skill)
250 – For 7 * 35 utility skill usage (on the higher end of utility energy costs)
———————————————-
600

Of course, this is a fairly skilled player, playing efficiently in terms of swapping legends frequently and not leaving large amounts of energy when swapping. But your take on it is way off base. Even playing extremely sloppy you’d be wrong.

I think a lot of the problem is just poor management by players, such as sitting in upkeep skills.

edit: forgots a word

skowcia.8257:

Kidel.2057:

Are we already giving up at Shiro+Glint?

Well…from the look of it..Yes. Glint seems to be more group support oriented and should shine more with Ventari/Jalis. If it can work with Shiro then cool, after all i planned to run Shiro+Glint. If not..meh.. hi Jalis, how are you?

+I dont like the fact it has cd’s. It goes against rev desing.

Recursivision.2367:

Signet necro is about the only condi build that’s going to apply condi’s and strip boons—and revenant performs fairly well against them.

Also, banish traited has about the same resistance uptime as pain absorption in 1v1’s. So it can be used against condi builds.

And it’s still the strongest anti-condi toolkit in the game.

Mesmer can strip boons quite well with shatters. And no, banish has lower amount of resistance than pain absord. For 35 energy you gain 6sec resistance (and even more so if you have allies around), for 2 banish which cost 40 energy you gain 4 seconds.

There are also other builds necro has that strip much better. Reaper will get 8cd aoe boonstrip on shroud 2.

Where are you getting 6 seconds on pain absorption? I still see 4—5 if it gives you an additional 1 second even with no allies around.

And yeah, mesmers can run strip on shatter. But if they’re a condi mesmer, that requires them to spec into a sub-par trait line just to counter you. Or we’re talking two separate players to hard counter you and, let’s be honest, if you’re getting focused by a shatter mesmer and a condi build you’re going to be dead either way.

skowcia.8257:

And whats about power builds? Which one will run ventari? Lol.

Mallyx ressitance is also stripable, dont have too high hopes for 20sec of resistance if opposite team has brain. We also dont know if f2 is upkeep ability or ability with normal cd and limited duration like other skills.

People been running both Jalis and staff, we all know how it ended vs any condi build. Olny Mallyx somewhat stood some chance due to spamming autoatk+pain absord but if you tried to use banish or leap you combined with wep skills you melded to condi as well due to lack of resistance.

Signet necro is about the only condi build that’s going to apply condi’s and strip boons—and revenant performs fairly well against them.

Also, banish traited has about the same resistance uptime as pain absorption in 1v1’s. So it can be used against condi builds.

And it’s still the strongest anti-condi toolkit in the game.

ronpierce.2760:

Recursivision.2367:

Adding a 100% evade to it for the full duration of it would make it pretty cheesy. It would pretty much become a low risk, high reward, use on CD skill thats extremely powerful both offensively and defensively.

Wouldn’t be wildly different than Blurred Frenzy or Pistol Whip. While ours is mobile and theirs isn’t, it hits for far less dmg and we don’t have very good CCs to combo it with. In the end, the difference isn’t huge. Plus I’d take a 2 second CD added if it was at least usable… Right now, you can exploit someone in Sword 3 so easily, especially with AOE.

I’m not 100 percent certain, but I’m pretty sure it does more damage than pistol whip. It definitely does more damage than blurred frenzy. Then also factor in the siphons from traits and shiro heal procs.

Blurred frenzy also requires the use of another skill to be of any use offensively in PvP (an immobilise or stun) in most situations.

Unrelenting assault will follow a player to the end of the earth and it can’t be fully negated anywhere near as easily as blurred frenzy or pistol whip.

Adamantium.3682:

This is another reason why Revs need another 1-3 utilities to choose from for each Legend. One of those should be some sort of condi cleanse. This way you give the Revenant flexibility while still being relatively weak to conditions. At most they would then have two condi removals (one in each Legend) plus the Jalis heal, and that’s if you choose to slot all available condi removal. With one always being gated behind a Legend and energy cost being the limiting factor that it is now I still think this puts Revs very high on the “weak to condi” list. Glint notwithstanding, Revs don’t have great condi removal in traits. Even Engis, who are pretty weak to condis just in their skills, can can some pretty decent removal with the right traits.

I guess to answer your question, I think yes we do need condi removal on Glint. However I don’t think this really solves much of that problem by itself.

Malyx is one of the strongest anti-condi toolkits in the game. With the 50% boon duration bonus, a revenant could probably stack 20 seconds or so of resistance on themselves in team fights and then heal for 10k while being immune to condi’s.

Jalis removes 3 on heal. Eh, not horrible.

Ventari can remove 3 condi’s about every 7 seconds.

Staff removes 2.

Trait to remove condi on legend swap.

Trait to remove condi on dodge roll every 10 seconds.

So, all in all, it doesn’t seem far off from any other class in the condi-handling department. It’s potentially the best if fully traited running staff malyx/ventari with corruption, invocation, and salvation.

Adding a 100% evade to it for the full duration of it would make it pretty cheesy. It would pretty much become a low risk, high reward, use on CD skill thats extremely powerful both offensively and defensively.