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Interrupting a Stealth Combo

in Thief

Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

You can interrupt the black powder animation itself, but it’s got a quick casttime so you have to be ready for it. (In other words, black powder isn’t instant, so you can interrupt it before it’s cast. In that case, the thief will teleport onto you without any black powder down).

If he’s comboing black powder with steal, then you’ll need an instacast interrupt (such as your own steal, or mesmer f3/mod) to interrupt. If you try to Pistol4 the other thief’s BP animation while he’s stealing, his steal will probably interrupt your Pistol4 attempt.

But as King said, your best bet is to dodge the steal+bp combo (which will be a bit random since steal is instacast) and then interrupt the HS. That way you force the thief to miss his steal (which is more valuable than eating the steal but interrupting the BP).

RE: All the anti-thief crusaders

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Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

OP’s posts are kind of ridiculous. They’re always a long-winded rant attacking anyone who suggests balance changes that impact his playstyle. Instead of writing up a multi-page tantrum, you could actually try responding to the points in a logical manner?

I’d do the same for you here, except you haven’t actually made any points except to disingenuously claim (per usual) that everyone who disagrees with you is a scrub.

That would be nice if they actually responded to logic. Same thing if they really were suggesting balance changes. Unfortunately, the people I am addressing do neither and they will remain bad players so long as they want arenanet to give them free kills. While discussion about the contents of my letter is fine that little fact is not up for debate just like all the thief-breaking nerfs those players want.

There are also a lot of reasonable people making well-informed points about stealth. But rather than engage in a constructive conversation with them, you choose to derail other threads by engaging the crazies in the “you’re bad! no you!” exchange. What results ends up drowning out the intelligent conversation, especially when you write these long-winded diatribes. It’s a waste of time to address the crazies on each side, and you’d accomplish far more by engaging the people who clearly play multiple classes and understand how all the builds work.

As you astutely observed, A.net obviously is not going to listen to the “omg I was helping double-cap home point and died instantly to a thief and don’t even know how it happened, OP!” posts, so there’s no point engaging them. Just let those guys vent (they’re going to do it anyway) and save your breath for engaging in a constructive discussion.

(edited by ResJudicator.7916)

Can I Have RtL back?

in Elementalist

Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

They won’t revert RTL nerf or people like daphoenix will just make videos of themselves kiting/trolling zergs and killing off the glassier builds still chasing.

I think we’re only asking for a revert on the CD nerf, not a revert on the range (which was a bug). The range was the main issue, because flying 1.5k units away was often enough to break combat.

With a 1.2k range RtL on a 20s cooldown, you’ll still be less mobile than a GS warrior, so it won’t only be “glassy” players chasing you.

Also, a lot of DaPhoenix’s videos were just montages of fights against bad players. You’ll see those videos for every class, no matter what changes you make.

Can we please not panic? (Movement Changes)

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Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

As for why Warrior mobility should be “better” that’s pretty easy. Warrior lack teleport’s/blinks like Guardians/Teef/Ele/Mes/Neco that allow them to abuse the Z axis. Maybe less of an issue in WvW, but in PvP that’s huge. It’s child’s play to outmaneuver a Warrior on many popular maps.

That’s a really good point, and may explain a lot of the differing views on mobility in general. Warriors are super mobile on flat terrain, but can easily be outmaneuvered when there’s a lot of useable Z-axis. PvP maps were designed to have a lot of Z-axis, while WvW maps tend to be mostly flat terrain (or Z-axis that you can’t port to because of pathing issues) – at least where a lot of the objectives are.

Maybe one solution would be to incorporate more Z-axis into the new WvW maps?

RE: All the anti-thief crusaders

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Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

OP’s posts are kind of ridiculous. They’re always a long-winded rant attacking anyone who suggests balance changes that impact his playstyle. Instead of writing up a multi-page tantrum, you could actually try responding to the points in a logical manner?

I’d do the same for you here, except you haven’t actually made any points except to disingenuously claim (per usual) that everyone who disagrees with you is a scrub.

like i did? it is actually really hard to complain with people who got enormous ego and max 10 hrs on the class and want major changes. stuff like that leads to a huge baised openion that they wanna force on everyone.

1) 3s reveal on block
2) 1s reveal on missed attack ( dodge/blind etc etc)
3) Chill reduce Initiative regeneration

Hopefully we’ll see more counterplay to stealth in general when HoT release, even though I still think that current reveal utilities have too high CD for the utility

actually i feel that recent posts are too faar from the original posts theme, which mostly is about the section i commented.

actually i can go with the 1) and 2) couse reveal wont make you come out of stealth at all it just makes you unable to stealth 3) is not really necessary couse cill already slows thieves melle pressure by making them unable to chase the target. implementing 3) gonna make the class even more vulnerable wich is really unnecessary.

the only one things that would be worth comlyining (about d/p thief couse people tend forget to secify what they are talking about) is the ability to stealth other teammates for ages with blasting smoke fields or burning refugee CD —> insane roaming && spike potential with lets say a hammer guard || mesmer. the other one is the unique ‘back cap’ ability provided by the shortbow.
I believe these two major things are mentioned before. Could you people pls consider this and keep the topic prodictive?

Yeah, you contributed to the other thread with a well-reasoned post. And others responded to your points. I wasn’t criticizing you.

(edited by ResJudicator.7916)

Concerns about condis/suggestions~

in PvP

Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

The problem with condi builds in PvP isn’t that conditions need more damage, it’s that shoutbow and d/d ele can put out a lot of AOE cleanse.

Except that isn’t the problem, condi builds have pretty much always been underrepresentated, the vast majority of meta builds in this game have been power based, really the only classes that have been reasonably well represented in the meta for long periods as actual condi builds were engi and ranger, and even then condi engi was never a default pick like bunker guard, thief, hambow/shoutbow and so on, until celestial engi which is more power than condi, actual condi builds have been a rarity in this game.

Terrormancer, condi engie, and spirit ranger were quite popular in the meta for a long while. I think it was the first WTS where most teams were running 1-2 spirit rangers, and shortly after that when terrormancer + condi engie became very popular. Terrormancer became a lot less popular when they overnerfed it due to dhuurmfire and hadn’t yet buffed PoC. Right now, condi classes are less effective because many teams run 2+ players who carry AOE cleansing. This wasn’t true before the celestial buff because there was a long period where cleansing water on ele had kitten ICD, and warriors pre-celestial didn’t run shoutbow.

Your point also doesn’t make much sense logically. Being “underrepresented” doesn’t mean a class is or was inherently weak. Most top teams only run one thief, so you could say that thief is “underrepresented,” but that obviously doesn’t mean that thief is weak. How “represented” a build is on a team depends on what roles the build fulfills, rather than how strong the class is. The fact that many teams ran only 1-2 condi builds before the celestial meta doesn’t mean that condi builds were weak back then, it just meant that teams still needed other roles to round out their comp.

RE: All the anti-thief crusaders

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Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

OP’s posts are kind of ridiculous. They’re always a long-winded rant attacking anyone who suggests balance changes that impact his playstyle. Instead of writing up a multi-page tantrum, you could actually try responding to the points in a logical manner?

I’d do the same for you here, except you haven’t actually made any points except to disingenuously claim (per usual) that everyone who disagrees with you is a scrub.

We need more counterplay to Thief Stealth

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Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

Again I return to the point you made that made me change my mind from agreeing with you that channeled skills like RF (which does a lot more damage than BS + Sigil Proc) is to dodge twice or counter with an interrupt as soon as it starts. I was with you on the revealing out of stealth until you made the point that “to stop those things do this” which I then applied to stealth attacks. So in answer to your question, yes it does have the same amount of counter play as some other mechanics in the game.

What? That makes no sense. You missed the first part, where I pointed out how you can see the RF attack coming so you know exactly when to dodge. When someone is stealthed, you don’t see the attack coming, so you have to estimate when to dodge (which is inherently less reliable). (People can also stealth out of LOS, in which case blind-dodging becomes even less reliable). You also left out the part where rapid fire has a cooldown.

Also, you also don’t have to dodge twice vs RF, one dodge makes the rest of it do as much damage as an autoattack.

Concerns about condis/suggestions~

in PvP

Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

I kind of agree with OP. The changes make far more sense in PvE than they do in PvP.

The problem with condi builds in PvP isn’t that conditions need more damage, it’s that shoutbow and d/d ele can put out a lot of AOE cleanse. And part of the reason why teams bring so much AOE cleanse is because condi spam is so prevalent.

So I agree with OP about shifting condi application to the higher-CD skills, (although that’s already kind of the case w/ necro). And rather than increasing condi dmg (through vulnerability stacking or scaling), they should instead re-adjust both condi-application and condi-cleanse.

Also, the confusion change is obviously meant to cater to PvE’rs.

We need more counterplay to Thief Stealth

in PvP

Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

… trying to SS and hit the backstab before the bullet connects but that is not very feasible at that range before the stealth wears off. So you basically made me realize that interrupts/dodges are also a counterplay to stealth as well so I take back the idea about ending stealth on an evaded attack because channeled attacks that last longer than the evade time still continue to do damage.

Just fyi, you don’t have to connect w/ SS before backstab wears off. The idea is you cast SS and immediately start the backstab animation while still in stealth. The animation will continue even after stealth wears off, which let’s you connect w/ the backstab.

Also, I’m not sure how you reached your conclusion with your tests. It’s not hard to get at least 2 backstab attempts off while in stealth. (Obviously you don’t do this vs every build, because some builds, i.e. engies, will nuke the ground where you were after dodging the first backstab).

No one is seriously saying that stealth has 0 counterplay (except maybe the crazies). But stealth attacks have much less counterplay than non-stealth attacks. Every “counter” you and others have described for stealth attacks applies to other attacks, except that the counters are much weaker vs stealth attacks for the many reasons I’ve previously listed.

I meant the BS + SS at that range wasn’t very feasible. Getting 2 chances at backstab is feasible yes however it can be counterplayed by evade and moving.

Now here’s the thing and yolo swagginz makes a very good point are you asking for more counterplay to stealth or more counterplay to backstab? The counterplay to stealth is the same as other things, interrupt when you see someone casting BP + HS or CnD or SR.

Counterplay to backstab and counterplay to stealth are not the same thing exactly.

I think I’ve made it pretty clear what I’m asking for: popping out of stealth (without revealed debuff) when your attack gets dodged/blocked/blinded (but not if you merely use a skill on the ground, so you can still use mobility skills while stealthed, for example). Not sure why you’re trying to make this only about stealth, or only about backstab. It obviously would affect all attacks while stealthed.

Also, your point about “counterplaying” two sneak attacks is kind of self-defeating. If the best counterplay you came up with was to burn two dodges/CDs, then you know something is wrong. It’d be like if you made it so a warrior who misses eviscerate gets the cooldown reset and max adrenaline so he can immediately retry, and then told the other player, “well, you can just dodge again! counterplay!”

I think the problem in your reasoning is that you’re asking the wrong question, “is there counterplay,” rather than the right one: “is the available counterplay balanced in terms of risk/reward, compared to the counterplay that’s available for other mechanics in the game”?

(edited by ResJudicator.7916)

We need more counterplay to Thief Stealth

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Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

… trying to SS and hit the backstab before the bullet connects but that is not very feasible at that range before the stealth wears off. So you basically made me realize that interrupts/dodges are also a counterplay to stealth as well so I take back the idea about ending stealth on an evaded attack because channeled attacks that last longer than the evade time still continue to do damage.

Just fyi, you don’t have to connect w/ SS before backstab wears off. The idea is you cast SS and immediately start the backstab animation while still in stealth. The animation will continue even after stealth wears off, which let’s you connect w/ the backstab.

Also, I’m not sure how you reached your conclusion with your tests. It’s not hard to get at least 2 backstab attempts off while in stealth. (Obviously you don’t do this vs every build, because some builds, i.e. engies, will nuke the ground where you were after dodging the first backstab).

No one is seriously saying that stealth has 0 counterplay (except maybe the crazies). But stealth attacks have much less counterplay than non-stealth attacks. Every “counter” you and others have described for stealth attacks applies to other attacks, except that the counters are much weaker vs stealth attacks for the many reasons I’ve previously listed.

Concerns about the condition damage

in PvP

Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

Cele is getting nerfed, but I think the OP is contending that even w/ the nerf celestial classes will still do more condi damage. I think it’s too early to tell whether cele will become weaker or stronger at this point. Keep in mind that the meta zerker builds are getting buffed through the roof. So if you kept celestial at the same power level, then cele builds would actually become relatively weaker.

I’m more concerned about how condi classes will become even more binary. If your condi spam > their condi-cleanse spam, then you will completely wreck them even harder than now. If their condi-cleanse spam > your condi spam, then you’ll remain worthless. Increasing condi dmg or duration exacerbates this problem.

We need more counterplay to Thief Stealth

in PvP

Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

The difference is that you can see the channeled skills being activated. And once you counterplay (dodge/block/los/interrupt) them, they go on a cooldown and can’t be re-used until the cooldown resets. Stealth sneak attacks don’t have any of these limitations.

But I agree with ending stealth on a dodge/block/blind without adding any reveal debuff. I honestly don’t even think this would affect thieves in many situations (i.e. when they’re +1ing to gank). It makes the biggest difference for those situations where the guy knows you’re backstabbing, and he dodges it, but you still have enough time left in stealth to backstab again so he has to burn another dodge. (Not everyone can just AOE their feet in response to a missed backstab).

[Edited for clarity]

(edited by ResJudicator.7916)

Can I Have RtL back?

in Elementalist

Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

Back in the day, the only reason RtL was nerfed was because (1) it ignored chill/cripple/swiftness; and (2) it went 1.5k range instead of 1.2k range.

A.net then fixed #2, so RtL only moves 1.2k range max, and doubled the CD because A.net thought #1 was still too strong. Now A.net is fixing #1, so there is literally no reason for RtL’s CD to remain the way it is.

We need more counterplay to Thief Stealth

in PvP

Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

Skills that add a reveal debuff seem more like a hard counter than real counterplay. Sic’em isn’t used to respond to anything the thief is doing. It’s used pre-emptively to completely shut down the stealth mechanic. I don’t think we should have more of these types of skills.

Instead, making it so that a stealthed character pops out of stealth when his attack is dodged/blinded/blocked (w/o reveal debuff) would add more room for meaningful counterplay from both the stealthed character and the non-stealthed character.

(edited by ResJudicator.7916)

We need more counterplay to Thief Stealth

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Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

I still do not see why we should be revealed on block/evade/blind, I think the writing alone in white saying “blocked/evaded/blinded” is more then enough because the text is where the thief is so surely you should be able to react to that – and backstab has close to a second after cast, it’s tactical strike that has a very short after cast time and is probably just as dangerous. Many times in duals vs thieves I predicted a dodge while they are in stealth and got the “evade” only for to turn around and CnD right back at him/her because the text told me where they were.

The ONLY thing that might be worth (nerfing) is probably tactical strikes cast time, you spam that 2 times per second so vs ages it’s going to land far easier then bs will do.

What about headshot cast time? Shouldn’t a ranged interrupt that is spammable have a cast time associated with it to make sure thieves use their brains when using it.

Headshot needs a low cast time so you can actually interrupt with it… It’s only purpose is to interrupt (or occasionally to proc sigils/panic if you don’t want to shadowshot or swap to bow).

We need more counterplay to Thief Stealth

in PvP

Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

- surely backstab hits hard (on) (omg forums cmon) squishies but frankly squishies can kill thief just as fast; most of the time it comes down to who gets the jump on whom….

Exactly! And stealth + mobility means thief always get the jump unless you play with your minimap off. If you take all your arguments to their logical conclusion, you’d see we don’t actually differ that much.

We need more counterplay to Thief Stealth

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Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

MMR performance? You do realize LB were a joke for half year at least? I have been on top 100 NA before LB turned into farmboards (i guess i am bad eh?) and i think more counterplay to stealth at current state of classes would just delete thieves from pvp.

My examples were just to show how severe would “counterplay” suggested in this thread.
You can’t blind warrior in zerker stance; you can also block backstab as block usually lasts longer than stealth so i don’t see the point of this argument; you can also doge backstab, most of them are actually highly predictable. I didn’t say there is no counterplay to warrior, same as there is already counterplay (a lot of it actually) to thief stealth. My point is: adding more would be just devastating.

Actually, quite some of ele dmg is instant and often unpredictable (cough procs).

Because revealed debuff denies thieves their defensives(healing, condi removal, dmg mititagtion), thieves are one of very few classes/builds thats defense is also baked into offense. Just imagine that guardian would gain resistance to own healing if his attack got blocked/blinded etc.

To be fair, i actually don’t even bother backstabbing most of the time due to current meta. Backstab requires so much atm (stealth, being behind, actually crit and not die to aoe) and deals such little dmg to most meta classes (celery, engi, shoutbow) that sadly AA is more effective. That is why any more nerfs to stealth and backstab are just overboard, imo, or are you implying that Anet should discourage using backstab even more? I don’t think it would be great design decision.

Here is the joke: look up your death log every time you die. What is killing you most of the time. I bet you my gold that it is burning and bleeding with some sigil procs. Do you REALLY think that backstab and stealth generally is such an issue atm?

There are obviously highly skilled thieves on both sides of the debate, as well as terrible players. That point was addressing Mr. Yolo’s blanket statement that anyone who disagrees with him simply doesn’t know how thief works.

Regarding the efficacy of backstab, it’s primarily an issue for other zerker classes. The tanky cele classes don’t have a hard time dealing with most zerker specs — that’s not a thief issue. (Except that fresh air counters a lot of celengie skills w/ air4 and focus4).

Backstab remains very powerful against zerker specs such as fresh air ele and mesmer. The backstab + an autoattack or two w/ procs will usually trigger panic strike, which means that they’ll have to burn one of their long CDs to avoid dying right there. They’re the ones that really need counterplay vs. stealth. The issue has always been about thieves pushing other zerker builds out of the meta. Talking about how backstab is less effective vs bruisers is kind of irrelevant.

Going back to your counterplay examples, they’re not anywhere near comparable for all the reasons I listed earlier. Your point about warriors and zerker stance also just goes to support what I was saying. You can see that the warrior has activated zerker stance, so you know to use something other than blinds for damage mitigation (for example, interrupting the burst skill, which takes the same amount of initiative as shadowshot). So again, there’s plenty of counterplay there. And again, when you counter the warrior, he loses all his adrenaline and the f1 skill goes on cooldown. That’s far more severe than what happens when a thief misses backstab. Sure, you can dodge stealth, but you may have to burn another cooldown to avoid the second backstab since the thief can immediately retry. Not every class has a high-damage PBAOE attack that they can drop at their feet whenever they avoid a backstab.

And finally, for like the fifth time, I’m not suggesting that thieves get the revealed debuff when they miss. Just that the stealth effect ends prematurely. As a thief, you have a lot of control over whether or not you’re going to whiff the backstab. And as far as survivability goes, this change doesn’t make stealth any weaker as a defensive measure. You also still have blinds + interrupts + mobility/disengages + stealth.

We need more counterplay to Thief Stealth

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Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

Why is this thread not locked? Nine pages of ignorant kitten kissing and ad Populum not enough for a lock? I knew this thread was going to be non-constructive the moment I read the title and whaddayaknow, it got really stupid on the first page.

The OP might want some discussion but the people who agree with him don’t. lol

There are a lot of good points made by people on both sides of the camp in this thread. And while lots of people (including good thieves) agree that stealth needs some more counterplay, they don’t all agree with the OP’s suggestions. There are a lot of middle-ground suggestions that have been offered here that are far more forgiving than a revealed-on-whiff.

Most of the posters who zealously oppose adding more counterplay to stealth show that they play thief at a pretty low level. Like the earlier post where someone talked about how much practice it takes to stack stealth with heartseeker, or the post where someone said aegis would be a total hardcounter to backstabs.

define good thief? the ones that agree with you? great definition~

Why is this thread not locked? Nine pages of ignorant kitten kissing and ad Populum not enough for a lock? I knew this thread was going to be non-constructive the moment I read the title and whaddayaknow, it got really stupid on the first page.

The OP might want some discussion but the people who agree with him don’t. lol

because trolls keep bumping it with random nonsense

back to topic: sure, add more counterplay to stealth if other classes will also see more counterplay to heals/invuls/block/aoe etc.
for example: if necro missed his DS attack, he loses entire life force bar
if warrior missed his f1 skill, his utilities go on CD
if ele missed (blind, block etc.) his high dmging spells, his attunements go on CD

sounds fair doesn’kitten it doesn’t…. so unless other classes (celestial cancer, i am looking at you) gets some massive nerfs i don’t see how adding even more counterplay to stealth would help besides deleting the class from pvp~

I define a “good thief” based on past performance on MMR-leaderboards, or how well they do in higher MMR matches, as well as their general knowledge of class mechanics.

Regarding your point about counterplay to other classes, I generally agree that there should be more counterplay, although most of your examples are flat out silly, and completely wrong.

You can see the Warrior F1 skill coming (unless he’s been stealthed), so you can set up your dodge/block/blind/etc. If you dodge/block/blind the Warrior’s F1 skill, he loses his endurance, and the f1 skill goes on cooldown. He also generally won’t get the cleansing ire proc (exception for longbow f1, which procs as long as the arrow hits the ground — this should be fixed). I’m not sure why you think there’s no counterplay here?

The same applies to the ele’s burning speed, firegrab, or phoenix + lightning flash whammo combo. You can see those coming, you can avoid the attack, and now the ele’s skills are on cooldown. In the case of the phoenix + LF combo, the ele’s also burned his only blink.

Also not sure why you think that having characters pop out of stealth (without revealed debuff) when their attack gets dodged/blinded/blocked would somehow delete thieves. How often do you whiff your backstabs? The other guy still has to time his dodge/block/blind, kind of like if he was trying to avoid an eviscerate or flurry, except vs stealthplay he has to do it based solely on timing and prediction.

(edited by ResJudicator.7916)

We need more counterplay to Thief Stealth

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Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

Why is this thread not locked? Nine pages of ignorant kitten kissing and ad Populum not enough for a lock? I knew this thread was going to be non-constructive the moment I read the title and whaddayaknow, it got really stupid on the first page.

The OP might want some discussion but the people who agree with him don’t. lol

There are a lot of good points made by people on both sides of the camp in this thread. And while lots of people (including good thieves) agree that stealth needs some more counterplay, they don’t all agree with the OP’s suggestions. There are a lot of middle-ground suggestions that have been offered here that are far more forgiving than a revealed-on-whiff.

Most of the posters who zealously oppose adding more counterplay to stealth show that they play thief at a pretty low level. Like the earlier post where someone talked about how much practice it takes to stack stealth with heartseeker, or the post where someone said aegis would be a total hardcounter to backstabs.

We need more counterplay to Thief Stealth

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Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

Yeah, lets make a skill that half-cripples a class with an abysmally low health pool completely cripple it instead.

pass.

We’re talking about eles now?

We need more counterplay to Thief Stealth

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Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

1. Sure shadow’s embrace can get rid of blind… only if thats the only condition on the thief. How likely is that in pvp btw?

2. Aegis would not be counterplay. It would be a complete shut down no? Personally i do not think being counterplayed by an afk guardian is… a good thing…

3. Most block skills last longer than stealth no…?

There are some l2p issues here. First off, blinding the thief, or using aegis or other skills to block a backstab are counterplay. These skills “counter” most other attacks in the game. Second, there is a lot of room for thief to counter this counterplay. For example, you can still backstab an aegis’d guardian by comboing it with steal. Steal is on a lower cooldown than aegis, so if the guardian waits until your steal is down to try and aegis-block a backstab, then he outplayed you. Not sure why you feel like you’d deserve to land a backstab there.

If you’re doing a stealth opener, you can even start in SB and use a long-range cluster then shadowshot-backstab right before the cluster lands, so that the cluster gets rid of aegis and the backstab animation completes.

For blocks and blinds, you have a lot of options besides giving up. If they activate a block skill, switch to shortbow w/ basi venom and stun them out of it with choking gas. Then clusterbomb spam ftw.

If it’s a blind skill and you’ve also eaten a ton of other condis, then you can just disengage while in stealth to clear all the other condis, do a soft-reset, then resume the fight on favorable terms. Otherwise, let shadow’s embrace clear the blind. If they’re super low and you need to finish them quickly, you can just HS rather than backstab and use stealth to escape or secure stomp.

Having the thief pop out of stealth (with no revealed debuff) on a blocked/blinded/dodged attack really isn’t as kittenome of the posters here are making it out to be.

Thief hard counter

in Mesmer

Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

If you take Mantra of Distraction as your third utility (w/ halting strike), thieves become a lot more management. S/D becomes a lot easier (larcenous and infil strike are the easiest to interrupt, in my experience). And for D/P, interrupting the BP+HS combo really messes a lot of thieves up (you can also just interrupt the dagger AA chain to stop their damage monetarily). To interrupt the BP+HS combo, make sure to keep a clone between you and the thief to block the BP projectile blind (or just dodge it).

After that, it’s all about figuring out the thief’s dodge patterns so you can time a shatter or two.

The thief may still have the upper hand in a strict 1v1 engagement, and a DP thief that’s very good with his blinds and interrupts will probably still wreck you. But, if played right, you should do OK vs thieves in the majority of your pugs.

We need more counterplay to Thief Stealth

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Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

The point, I think you guys missed it.

Also, you make it sound like a D/P thief only has stealth. There’s withdraw, bountiful for vigor, disabling shot, lots of evades in my eyes. Again, I’m not complaining, just stating that “Stealth is a thiefs only defense” is not correct. I won’t even start with blinds here. ^^

Some builds rely more on evades, some more on stealth. But you’ll end up most likely with having a mix of both, which is a good thing.

That’s funny because every class apart from necro has access to vigor. D/P thief does indeed depend on stealth, evades are not the main defensive mechanics. Thief has no invulnerability or block as other classes. You’re stating something that’s not really relevant.

D/P thief depends on blinds and interrupts for defense more so than stealth, imo. The use of stealth for defensive purposes is generally limited to waiting out certain cooldowns (for example, stealth when enemy pops obsidian flesh or signet of stone or endure pain). Otherwise, you can shadowshot or dodge most of your opponent’s key attacks. Proccing panic strike is also great defense, since many builds can’t do much damage to you if they’re immobilized and you move behind him.

As many have noted, a thief who is camping stealth in conquest is not adding anything to his team. I feel like the thieves who claim that stealth is their only (or even primary) defense are the usual WvW full-shadow arts trolls who rely entirely on stealth camping to cover up their mistakes.

Well, again interrupts are not really the core defesnsive mechanics. I agree with the blind, though as long as it’s a small scale fight. In a team fight, you’ll be depending on stealth much more due to random procs. Seeing as thief melts down quickly when targeted, it needs to be untargetable > stealth. What you said does works well in 1v1’s, but try to not go in stealth in a team fight and we’ll see how long you will last. If we leave out vigor, thief has withdraw and sb. If you’re going to spam sb#3, then you’re being useless since you’re putting no pressure. Stealth on the other hand lets you do both, keep up pressure and also avoid potential damage. You should also realize that a large portion of thief’s damage comes from backstab. Obviously, you don’t want to be in teamfights all the time, but it’s not like you’ll be decaping the whole match either.

Even in a teamfight, a thief can temporarily disengage for defense. For example, porting up to Clocktower roof, or to the plateaus by Graveyard (near the pillars), or to the upper ledge by Keep, etc. Then pop back in when the enemy switches targets. So I still disagree that stealth is the only defense even in teamfights.

In any event, I don’t think anyone wants stealth removed. And you can certainly add some counterplay without hurting stealth’s defensive capabilities.

Here’s a quick idea: If the thief’s attack is dodged/blinded/blocked, then the stealth effect immediately ends (but no reveal debuff is applied). This only applies if you actually dodge/blind/block/whatever the attack. If the thief simply swings at air and misses, then he stays stealthed. This means that if you predict the backstab and actively avoid it, the thief can immediately restealth (if he has the initiative), but he won’t be able to just press “1” to try for another backstab. This adds counterplay to stealth openers without hurting the thief’s defense at all.

The only tricky implementation part that I can think of is what to do with the pistol’s Sneak Attack (or similar multi-hit skills). Ideally, I think if you dodge any of the 5 bullets, then the thief should pop out of stealth. However, if any of those 5 bullets hit, the reveal debuff should still apply.

We need more counterplay to Thief Stealth

in PvP

Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

The point, I think you guys missed it.

Also, you make it sound like a D/P thief only has stealth. There’s withdraw, bountiful for vigor, disabling shot, lots of evades in my eyes. Again, I’m not complaining, just stating that “Stealth is a thiefs only defense” is not correct. I won’t even start with blinds here. ^^

Some builds rely more on evades, some more on stealth. But you’ll end up most likely with having a mix of both, which is a good thing.

That’s funny because every class apart from necro has access to vigor. D/P thief does indeed depend on stealth, evades are not the main defensive mechanics. Thief has no invulnerability or block as other classes. You’re stating something that’s not really relevant.

D/P thief depends on blinds and interrupts for defense more so than they rely on stealth, imo. The use of stealth for defensive purposes is generally limited to waiting out certain cooldowns (for example, stealth when enemy pops obsidian flesh or signet of stone or endure pain). Otherwise, you can shadowshot, dodge, or interrupt most of your opponent’s key attacks. I find that stealth is generally used to guarantee a strong first strike, to clear condis that you failed to avoid, or to disengage.

As many have noted, a thief who is camping stealth in conquest is not adding anything to his team. I feel like the thieves who claim that stealth is their only (or even primary) defense are the usual WvW full-shadow arts trolls who rely entirely on stealth camping to cover up their mistakes.

(edited by ResJudicator.7916)

We need more counterplay to Thief Stealth

in PvP

Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

To all the people who say “well if the thief disengages, then you just won the fight,” that’s oftentimes not true because of the thief’s superior mobility and ability to +1 other fights.

Let’s say the thief hops to your home point and starts to decap. You’re playing your A game, so you see the thief heading there and get to home point before he finishes decapping. You fight a bit, outplay him, and land a nasty burst. He stealths + disengages. At this point, you’re in a bind: The thief can very quickly go back to mid (and heal back to full health due to breaking combat), in which case it becomes a temporary 5v4 against your team because you’re still at home. Or, if you expect that and immediately start moving back to mid, he can quickly circle back and finish the decap once you step off home point. Or, as a third option, if you happen to be low on cooldowns (say, you’re a fresh air ele or a mesmer who popped obsidian flesh / distortion during the fight to avoid a big burst), the thief could re-open w/ a backstab + panic strike proc and just down you.

This same dilemma really applies no matter what point you’re fighting on. If the thief “disengages” from a teamfight, he’ll just decap your home point. Obviously, a good thief is not going to sit on the sidelines camping stealth until he can hop back into the fight.

I wouldn’t exactly call the above a “loss” for the thief, even though he disengaged.

No sane thief will invest in shadow arts. For the simple reason that thieves atm are either go burst or go home. Nothing else works…i assume after the trait update thieves will go deadly arts/acrobatics/trickery and/or replacing one of those for critical strikes(for panic strike and hidden killer/executioner) and overall higher critical rate.

Shadow arts will still make no sense in conquest unless you really want to kitten off someone but you can forget about winning the game.

You’ve kinda just outed yourself as someone who doesn’t know your own class… Most of the top thieves are running DP panic strike, which is Deadly Arts + Shadow Arts + Trickery. What the new changes will let you do is max out shadow arts for free. Also, taking SA will be even less of a sacrifice once they decouple stats from traits.

What you should be saying is that no sane thief will camp stealth in a conquest game, which is accurate. But SA still offers a lot of passive survivability even if you’re not camping stealth, and it also further reduces the counterplay to stealth.

(edited by ResJudicator.7916)

Fire + Air balance discussion

in Elementalist

Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

I can’t agree with that there are other way to be survivable out of water and arcana. Elementalist aren’t forced in these two attunment. It’s just that most of the elementalist are used to depend on them.

natural defensive mechanisms :
damage mitigation :
Focus : earth 4-5, air 4
dagger : fire 3, water 4
staff : fire 4, earth 3
scepter : air 3, earth 3 (and 2)

Utility : arcane shield, mist form, conjure shield 5, signet of air

controle :
focus : air 5, water 4 and 5
dagger : water 3 and 4, air 3 and 5, earth 3 and 4
staff : water 4, air 5, earth 4 and 5

utility : signet of earth, signet of water

sustain :
focus, dagger, staff, scepter : all these weapon have skills that actually heal the user and even it’s teammate in water attunment.
Water field and blast combo, utility that grant regeneration when trait… etc.

condi cleanse :
focus : earth 4
dagger : water 5
scepter : fire 3
staff : water 5

utility : signet of water, cleansing fire, water elemental

This is just a quick look at it and i forgot a lot of them in the process but the elementalist have way enough tools at his hand to disregard the fact that he have a bit less health and armor. Beside he also have strong traits to support this (thus even out of arcana and water).

Well, excuse this post that rush a bit out of the elementalist burst change theme. Still, in my opinion, there is no need for more “blind” in fire attunment (except perhaps sunspot) and yes 10% flat crit chance on the adept minor trait IS to strong of a trait and that’s why I suggest that you switch it wit One with air (not that I am fond of one with air but I think it will be more fitting in this place).

Elementalist has great survivability cooldown skills. The problem for a burst ele is that they have long cooldowns and aren’t very good for disengagement (except lightning flash). The ele’s survivability skills are very good for a tanky spec, because you can heal up during that period of invuln. But for burst specs, this style of survivability doesn’t work as well because healing is less effective w/ low toughness. The top burst specs generally have more access to skills that let them disengage from the fight.

For example, thief has initiative-based stealth + port, both of which are great for disengaging. And mesmer has blink (comparable to LF for disengage but on a lower CD), and decoy, which is also great for disengaging.

I think the best avenue for giving a burst ele disengage potential would be through tweaking “One With Air.” The currently proposed duration buff might be enough to let the burst ele disengage via superspeed, but A.net will still need to figure some way to make the damage comparable to other burst classes (given that the spec is going to lose bolt to the heart and air mastery, while other burst classes are getting buffs to both damage and defense).

Why play thief when you can play ranger

in WvW

Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

Unless the ranger is running Sic ‘Em, it should be pretty hard to lose as a thief unless you’re getting hardcore outplayed.

Engage till they pop SoS, then stealth and dodge the RF. Or interrupt their RF then stealth. Then re-engage when SoS runs out.

Outside of stealth play, you can Pistol3 their LB3 to blind it and close distance. If you’re circlestrafing / running through the ranger, he won’t be able to channel LB2 on you unless he’s standing still. Even if he is standing still, you can either dodge, Pistol4, or Steal (with sleight of hand) to interrupt rapid fire.

When SoS is down, the ranger really isn’t tanky at all. A glassy ranger has the same armor as you. He has more health, but you will neutralize that health advantage with your opening attack.

Honestly, outside of Sic ‘Em, rangers in WvW only seem strong if you’re one of those mindless stealth-spamming thieves that don’t actually know how to properly apply pressure. If all you do is backstab – stealth – repeat, then you deserve to die to rapid fire. If you learn to use your other skills and don’t spam dodges, then rapid fire stops being a problem.

Elementalists and new spec system

in PvP

Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

Every prof’s meta is falling out…its gonna be a heck of a fun time in pvp when this all drops. The meta is going to completely change

Actually the 6/0/2/0/6 meta panic strike build is getting a straight buff across the board to damage (dagger training baseline) and survivability/support (because it will now be 6/0/6/0/6). No sacrifices at all to the existing meta build, it’s a straight-up buff.

Shatter mesmer also getting largely buffed, with several of their key traits (IP (GM), elasticity (master), and I think far-reaching manipulations (adept)) becoming baseline.

Now, it’s entirely possible that thief/mes will get even stronger builds (esp. interrupt mesmer), which might push out panic strike and shatter mes. However, those underlying meta builds will still be objectively stronger than they currently are.

Can’t say the same for Ele. The Ele’s current D/D build is objectively going to become weaker in terms of team support, and stronger in terms of passive face-tanking potential. Overall, it’s a mixed bag for eles.

Elementalists and new spec system

in PvP

Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

you’re mistaken if you think d/d ele deals more damage than a shoutbow and shoutbow has also more support.

He’s mistaken about a lot of things. Look at his posts in the ele forum: he posts misinformation, people correct him, he acknowledges the correction, then he bizarrely starts a new thread repeating the same misinformation.

Problem is Math is not a matter of opinion, you thinking otherwise will change nothing in the grand scheme of things. Made a thread explaining why geomancer defense is not a free buff, given the math and everything…you still insist on your wild theories, talking about celestial armor dmg reduction while completely ignoring the concept of diminishing return

Believe your own lie..nobody will stop you , but the one spreading misinformations would be you now.

At no point in time I cared for the popularity of my posts, I’m simply stating the facts and my opinions, whether you like them or not…doesn’t concern me at all.

But it was necessary to say this, people already accuse me of trolling, griefing and more, simply because I don’t agree with the majority

Actually, if you re-read your thread (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Geomancer-s-Defense-explained/first#post5032040) I was the one explaining how diminishing returns worked. Once again you’ve confused all the facts.

Like you said, math is not opinion. Your math was factually wrong, and it was corrected, then you went on to re-assert your point even though the math no longer supported it. It’s impossible to have a constructive conversation with you when you just keep repeating yourself even after you’ve realized that all your supporting arguments are wrong.

The same thing is happening here. At this point, you’re just contradicting your own posts or purposefully mischaracterizing other people’s posts.

(edited by ResJudicator.7916)

Elementalists and new spec system

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Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

you’re mistaken if you think d/d ele deals more damage than a shoutbow and shoutbow has also more support.

He’s mistaken about a lot of things. Look at his posts in the ele forum: he posts misinformation, people correct him, he acknowledges the correction, then he bizarrely starts a new thread repeating the same misinformation.

Elementalists and new spec system

in PvP

Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

By making ele low health + low armor with no innate defense, poor defensive weapon skills on long CD’s, and utilities with ungodly long CD’s, they created a class that, without traits already has 1 foot in grave. Baseline, it is weak to conditions (low health) and physical damage (low toughness). Because the class is such a fragile little bird, they have to give some incredibly strong defensive mechanics so that it can play in the big leagues. Eles have access to lots of boons, heals, and cleanses from traits. This creates a problem, b/c it becomes a 1v1 beast when it goes full-hog into defense. The problem is compounded when nearly all of the self-survival traits automatically integrate group-support. If the ele wants to survive on his own, he naturally does well helping his team-mates. There is nothing to give up, and he is FORCED into this situation b/c he doesn’t want to be babysat.

So how do we go about fixing the problem: give the ele some inherent self-defense tools through its profession mechanics so that its not a baby-bird that needs to build into a full-tank just to play in the big-leagues. A good example of this would be making elemental attunement baseline for the ele only, at reduced duration. Now, they have SOME active defense capabilities built into the class. Next, they can increase the self-survival capabilities through skills/utilities (by decreasing the unreasonable cooldowns many have), while also reducing the self-survival of some of the traits (especially the self-healing). Finally, make selfish traits and support traits separate (this should be true for all classes, otherwise predominate specs like shoutbow pop up that just do too much).

At the very core of the problem is that the ele is too weak baseline, forcing them to give OP defense options to survive. When all those OP options are stacked into one spec, you get something that nobody wants: a boring sustain-bot that just tanks you to death.

Very well put.

An Incendiary Powder/Soothing Wave curve

in PvP

Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

OP isn’t complaining about anything. He’s saying that, ordinarily, soothing wave + cleansing water will counteract IP because they have the same ICD and trigger conditions (10s on crit). OP then points out that the engie can get around this by equipping sigil of torment (ICD of 5s) or sigil of earth (ICD 2s). There’s a chance that when you proc IP, you will also proc one of these sigils, and the ele’s soothing wave + cleansing wave combo will sometimes clear the torment/bleed rather than the burning.

To the OP: I think an easier workaround to consider would be to just proc IP with a skill that already applies conditions (such as Grenades 2-5, or any of the pistol skills). I haven’t actually tested which condition Soothing Wave + Cleansing Water prioritizes if you get hit with a Grenade2 (bleeding) that also procs burning, though. But using this method would let you get around having to equip suboptimal sigils.

Elementalists and new spec system

in PvP

Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

Elemental attunement is far too strong to be made baseline as it is. It also has boons attached to it, meaning it is unlikely to be made baseline. Also, the ele changes are a dream compared to what necros got, so it could be worse.

EA seems strong only because ele is the only class whose class mechanic doesn’t confer any inherent benefit. Unless traited, there’s no real benefit associated with the ability to swap attunements. True, the Ele has more overall weapon skills, but the ele’s weapon skills have already been balanced around this fact, so in the end it’s not an inherent advantage. Specifically, the ele’s access to 20 weapon skills is already balanced by the fact that the ele’s weapon skills are generally weaker or have longer cooldowns compared to other classes. To the point where several ele weapon skills aren’t even worth casting (shatterstone, I’m looking at you).

Every other class’s mechanic confers a substantive benefit even when untraited. Warriors get a hard-hitting skill. Guardians get access to burning, on-demand aegis, etc. Thieves get a free teleport + stolen item. Rangers get two pets with their own set of skills. Necros get a second life bar. Etc.

Making a selfish version of EA baseline would bring the Ele’s class mechanic up to this same level.

[Report] PvP Forum Specialist Report

in Elementalist

Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

Here’s some suggestions from an avid fresh air ele player:

(1) I really like the idea of having more active traits. Given that one of the ele’s strengths is finishing combo fields, it would be interesting to see more traits revolve around using combo fields. For example:
- Blinding Ashes (Fire GM Major) could grant stealth when a fire field is blasted (on an ICD, so ele’s access to stealth would be limited). This would allow burst eles some very much-needed disengage potential.
- Arcane Precision (Arcana GM Minor) could apply its effects at a 100% rate whenever the Ele’s Projectile Finishers are combined with a Combo Field.
- Final Shielding (Arcana Master Major) could be improved so that Arcane Skills deal bonus damage or recharge faster whenever they are used in conjunction with a combo field.

(2) Add in some traits/skills that allow the Ele to actively avoid damage. For example, retool One With Air (Air Adept Master) so it grants a short burst of superspeed whenever you blind or dodge an attack. It would reward a playstyle where you actively blind/evade an attack, and then get some superspeed to reposition yourself. But if you get hit, or caught by an immobilize, then you’re extremely vulnerable.

(3) Replace Zephyr’s Speed (Air Adept Minor) with Bolt to the Heart (Air GM Master) and adjust the numbers accordingly (and make it work only when attuned to air). Bolt to the Heart should not be a grandmaster trait because it is neither build-defining nor gameplay-changing in any way. It’s just a straight up DPS increase, like Air Training or Pyromancer’s Training, except it doesn’t even improve cooldowns. Zephyr’s Speed is 100% worthless as it currently is.

(4) As others have said, Lingering Elements practically does nothing. If you have Lingering Elements, then you’ve taken Arcana, which means you only have 2 trees left to place into elemental lines. So at most, you get the benefit of having two minor adept traits Linger for slightly longer. And if the Tempest’s adept minor trait doesn’t benefit from linger, then Lingering Elements would only affect one trait! That’s worthless! I think the Linger Effect should just be baseline, and Lingering Elements should be retooled to provide some other benefit (such as +1% increased damage for every different condition on your target, which would synergize with the idea of swapping between different elements to apply bleeding/burning/vulnerability/blindness).

(5) Revisit the weapon skills, especially for scepter and focus. Shatterstone (Scepter Water 2) makes almost no sense from a risk/reward perspective. It does less damage over the course of its cast time than most autoattacks. On top of that, it’s one of the harder skills to land in the game. Shatterstone takes so long to trigger that your opponent can just walk out of the AOE before it explodes. The only way to hit shatterstone is to CC your opponent first. Compare that to, say, mind stab, which requires that your opponent burn a dodge and has a much greater effect (I think almost 2x the damage) + boon strip. Mind stab is in a good place; shatterstone is so weak that it’s almost never worth using.
- My suggestion would be to turn shatterstone into a soft-CC skill. Have it pulse chill while active, and inflict vulnerability + higher damage when it explodes. Now eles can use the skill to peel for their teammates. (It’d also be interesting, but not necessary, if the shatterstone automatically detonated when you leave water, which adds some active play: do you want to stay in water to get the chill CC? or swap out while your opponent is near the shatterstone to get the dmg + vuln stacks?).

(edited by ResJudicator.7916)

[Video] Weaponless Dueling 2

in Thief

Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

If only anet would stop trying make Thieves a condition class then it’ll definitely help boost our power builds. Cause then people would stop complaining about how broken we are ==.

+1 this. Thief shouldn’t be able to have access to easy confusion, bleeds and torment. Their specialty should be poison and raw damage. I rather most thieves go direct damage in WvW than abusing the condition specs . They shouldn’t be able to tick so much damage while stealthing /evading/ teleporting none stop.

Sad thing is Anet is going to make Thief’s condition spec even stronger in HoT… lol
Gonna enjoy thieves taking down the whole lord room in Stronghold by spamming bleed trap procs while stealthing and evading

It’s pretty obvious anything I say is going to fall on deaf ears, so here’s a challenge.

Take this spec into some ranked que, play it for a week, then come back here and tell me how ridiculously OP condi thief was and how every one of your fights was an absolute breeze.

Hell, you can even equip weapons if you like – that should make the entire thing a cakewalk! But you’ve got to keep the traits, utilities, heal and elite as is.

You go and do that for a week, then we can talk about how broken condi this is. Until then, we can keep pinning the blame on Dire/Perplexity.

Someone ran a caltrops + uncatchable build in sPvP and made a video. He used S/D for the Sword2 immob, and flanking strike for added survivability. I don’t recall if it was ranked or unraked, but some of his opponents included players from The Abjured.

But the real point of Mango’s vid again is just that dire + perplex is stupid, and dire + perplex isn’t available in sPvP, so I’m not entirely sure why we’re even talking about ranked. But anyway, here’s the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_F1MJhHkQ0

Definitely not broken, or even optimal in sPvP, but it was moderately effective and excelled in a few of the matchups.

Edit: Whoops, forgot to paste the video link in.

(edited by ResJudicator.7916)

Weakness Focused Build - Durable Berserkers?

in PvP

Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

Fresh air ele running Glyph of Elemental Power instead of Signet of Air can maintain near-perma weakness if you swap out Bolt to the Heart w/ Quick Glyphs. I’ve found it works pretty well in 1v1 duels against other zerker classes. The weakness is single-target, though, so it ends up being less effective in teamfights where the guy you’re focusing is usually not trying to kill you at the moment.

[Video] Weaponless Dueling 2

in Thief

Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

Not sure where all the salt is coming from. The players he fought are probably on par with half the people posting in the forum. I only watched a few of the fights, but in the first one the ele wasn’t killing himself on confusion. He procced it a few times when going through the water rotation in order to cleanse all his other condis (which would have ticked for more). He didn’t have enough cleanses to strip the confusion, so he kited until it wore off.

I’m guessing the players caught on to the needle trap after the first duel. It was setting up most of the damage in the build, and it’s not something you run into often, so these guys were probably caught off-guard (although they should have figured it out midfight).

I think the main point of the video is to just show how survivable the dire stat makes condi thief. Especially in combination w/ perplexity (which punishes people for attacking you).

(edited by ResJudicator.7916)

Nothing OP with syncronized Phantasm attacks

in Mesmer

Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

I think the main strength of this would be to use it right after your current phantasms attacked. That way, you get 3 heavy hitters in a row, which means your opponent would need to have something besides the base two dodges to avoid the damage. 3 phantasms would obviously be ideal, but I think just the 2 you get from your two weapon sets would hit pretty hard. Still feels kinda one-trick ponyish, though.

But a basic combo would be something like this: GS4 => GS2 => GS3 => swap to S/P => Pistol4 => S3 + swap after opponent dodges => Blurred Frenzy => Shatter => iBezerker and iDuelist auto-resummoned and attack again.

So in terms of hard-hitting skills, your opponent would need to avoid the first zerker, the mirror blade, the duelist, the i-leap + bf combo, the 3-clone shatter, and then the phantasm resummons.

This is a combo you could pull off at any point in the fight, really, without needing to set up 3 phantasms to begin with. It’s got the same weaknesses that phantasms usually have though, like susceptibility to kiting/LOS. Also, if your opponent pops a block/invuln on the shatter, the invuln will probably last through Round 2 of the phantasm attacks.

Stop complaining about Shadow's Rejuvenation

in Thief

Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

Cant we just agree to treat Shadow Arts as a primarily wvw (roaming/1vX) balance issue, and deal with it from that viewpoint?

The meta thief build used by almost all the thieves in tournaments maxes out Deadly Arts and Trickery, and takes 10 points in shadow arts (for shadow’s embrace). With HOT, that same build would automatically max out shadow arts to gain all the additional survivability without losing any DPS. So it will affect PvP.

Permastealth is obviously a WvW thing, but thieves will benefit from BP-on-steal (master trait), dmg-reduction-in-stealth (GM minor), and the extra healing + initiative regen from SR (GM) without having to camp stealth.

Geomancer's Defense explained

in Elementalist

Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

Damage= (weapon strength X power X skill dmg coef)/armor
I will use sword = savage leap as test subject on an ele base armor
-Sword : 1050 (weapon strength)
-Savage Leap : 0 .75 (dmg coefficient)
-Ele base armor= 1814
-Example power = 2000
Using the formula : (1050 * 2000 * 0.75)/ 1814 = 1,575,000/1814 = 868 damage done

to calculate damage modifiers you need to do (armor* negative coefficient)

1814*1.2=2177
1575000/2177=723
(868-723)/723*100= 20%

now lets add celestial. armor is now 2453. with damage modifier it is 2944 (2453*1.2)
1575000/2453=642
1575000/2944=535
(642-535)\535*100= 20%

There is no diminishing return. any positive damage modifiers the enemy has will probably be canceled out by this negative damage modifier anyhow.

That’s not quite right. There is no diminishing return on Effective HP (which is a function of your health and armor). EHP scales linearly with both vitality and toughness, and it measures your overall ability to absorb damage.

However, there are diminishing returns on how much additional % damage reduction each additional point of armor/toughness gives. You don’t get an additional 12% damage reduction or whatever for every 300 points of armor. That number will decrease.

Here’s a really old post that lays out the math and explains it in more detail than I have time to:
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/60838-math-damage-reduction-toughness-and-vitality/

Geomancer's Defense explained

in Elementalist

Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

Let’s calculate the percentage difference :

- [(699-617)/617] * 100 = 13%

FYI, all the other variables cancel out so you can just divide [new armor] / [old armor] to get the increase in dmg reduction. Hope this helps the next time.

The 13% you arrived at is much closer to the 11% I did in my head than the 18% you originally claimed. And your 13% is also still a bit too high, because you left out the earth minor trait that adds base toughness and isn’t going away.

So your explanation is still not right.

Geomancer's Defense explained

in Elementalist

Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

Few things wrong with OP’s argument:

(1) Math is off. Adding 300 toughness on a celestial D/D build means you take roughly 11% less damage than a D/D build without the bonus 300 toughness. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage

(2) Current “tanky” ele builds only take 10 in earth, not 30. So you’re making up a stat loss that doesn’t even exist.

(3) You’re also forgetting about the synergy between elemental shielding and the increased access to auras.

[Theorycraft]: Ether Renewal as Cantrip

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Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

Don’t know if you realize it, but they’re increasing the stats on amulets to compensate for the loss in stats from traits. So that kind of defeats your entire argument.

Your damage calculations for toughness are also way off, which also defeats your entire argument. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage

[Theorycraft]: Ether Renewal as Cantrip

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Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

They’ll probably keep ER as is. It probably has the most counterplay vulnerabilities of any heal, and is very risky to use vs builds that have decent CC, esp. trickery thieves and mesmers, who can strip stability + interrupt nearly instantly.

As far as theory-crafting goes, I think it’s pretty obvious that A.net is trying to give Ele an easymode supertank class. Earth/Water/Arcana, with Rock Solid & Stone heart, so you can start casting ER then attune to earth when the enemy tries to CC it. You’ll be immune to crits (and effectively immune to condis cause of ER pulsing) while you’re channeling ER, and you’ll have a stack of stability to make it harder for ppl to interrupt you.

The soothing disruption synergy is definitely a plus, but I don’t see it as a huge deal with the above build. You’d already have permavigor from renewing stamina + fury, and near-perma regen from Soothing Ice + Elemental Attunement. So soothing disruption just helps you maintain vigor + regen in situations where your rotations are off. The 3 second CD reduction on ER isn’t huge, either, but it’ll help you recover if ER gets interrupted.

So run around to contest the point, soaking as much damage as you can with perma protection, regen, vigor, soothing mist, the passive 20% geo defense trait, and occasional frost auras. Rely on rock solid to help you get most of the ER channel off (even if they have 2 CCs, you’d probably get most of your healing pulses off by the time they interrupt you). Your damage will be worse due to the cele nerf (might even be better off running clerics), but you’ll be able to tank damage like crazy.

(edited by ResJudicator.7916)

OP panic strike teef inc.

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Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

I don’t see your post being any more constructive than anyone else. It’s even more pointless and meaningless really. There’s also no way your post or thief’s posts are more credible than others. They’re all the same.

Actually there is. It is called experience.

A great majority of the players who disagree with the OP’s thoughts and the general topic of nerfing thief, are those with vastly more experience than the players who seek to destroy thief. They’ve used thief enough that they understand thief’s quirks, handling, weak points, etc. that they can spot a bad player who was quickly reminded skill level by a better player a mile away. They can see past those sneaky little veiled nerf thief threads better than everyone else.

And with that experience and understanding, they know which suggestions will break the profession. Anyone can level a thief to 80, but it takes way more than that to gain any credibility and the OP has none.

The OP has made it obvious that a thief killed him and he is out for blood because his claim is impulsive, specific and has absolutely no basis other than “because…”. And because of it there is no point in trying to be constructive. The OP and those who take his side do not want a discussion but simply for players to agree with him. That is not constructive and neither is shooting down experience because you think they “don’t want their OP mechanics removed”.

Blind flailing attacks are countered by blind flailing defense. That’s all these threads amount to and that’s why they need to be locked.

Your only contribution to this thread has been to directly attack other players. And your attacks are completely baseless. Based on GW2Score, the OP was Rank ~41 on EU on the oldschool MMR leaderboards maining thief w/ over 3k games. You’ve never even made it onto any of the leaderboards.

Now don’t take this the wrong way — I’m not saying that you’re a bad player or anything for failing to place on the leaderboards. But maybe you shouldn’t automatically discount the opinions of someone who has been more successful at thief? At the very least, you can address the argument itself.

I often disagree with what the OP writes, but at least I’d take the time to respond to the substance of his post rather than assume that anyone who disagrees with me must be terrible at the game.

OP panic strike teef inc.

in PvP

Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

Its probably people that dont play thief so they dont know any better.

Typically they claim to have all lvl 80 classes – so clearly they know their kitten.

If you PvPed at a higher level, you’d recognize that many of the people who dislike Shadow Rejuvenation are top thieves who don’t like the huge crutch that SR provides. They rely on timing disengages, blinds, interrupts, and dodges to avoid damage, rather than camping stealth to erase mistakes.

I’m otherwise totally in support of buffs to thieves, especially ones that go along with their active, mechanically skill-intensive playstyle.

(edited by ResJudicator.7916)

It's Official: The Devs Are Crazy

in Mesmer

Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

Ele’s Fire GM Minor gives +10% damage against burning targets, and Thief Deadly Arts GM Minor gives +10% damage against targets suffering from any condition, so I think the change to Wastrel’s makes a lot of sense balance-wise.

But yeah, vulnerability is way easier to apply than preventing your opponent from using skills (especially since dazing them will apply vulnerability). So the rationale the devs gave in the video doesn’t make much sense. They probably just misspoke.

Dev Feedback: Evasive Arcana

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Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

Makes sense in theory, although I don’t think it’d have much of an impact in practice.

The only time this would matter is if you used two dodges back-to-back, with each dodge in a different attunement. I’m hard-pressed to think of a situation in which you’d ever want to double-dodge like that, since you’d be burning up all of your endurance. I guess it might happen in PvE if you’re trying to blind the boss and also blast a field or something?

Either way, I don’t see any reason NOT to make this change…

(edited by ResJudicator.7916)

[Feedback] The real problem with Air Magic...

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Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

Fresh air does its damage in spurts, with low sustain damage in between. The overall sustained DPS is actually not that great for a pure glass build (compared to, say, shatter mesmer or panic strike thief), and it’s super reliant on landing perfect phoenixes.

Attacking someone as a fresh air ele works out kind of like this:
(1) Opening phoenix+lf+air burst, which is like crashing into someone with a car.
(2) Autoattacks. Which is like getting out of your car to tickle that person.
(3) Airburst. Which is like punching the guy.
(4) More autoattacks. Back to tickling, because punching is too violent.
(5) Airburst. Then back to tickling. Then another airburst. Then back to tickling.
(6) Repeat.

Most other DPS classes spread their DPS out more evenly, so they can’t take out 80-100% of someone’s health in one fell swoop (except mesmers if you get a perfect interrupt → 25 stacks of vuln → mirror blade → shatter). But their overall sustained pressure is also a lot higher. For example, power ranger and thief autoattacks do like 3x the DPS of air1.

So the simple solution seems to be upping the sustained damage of fresh air while reducing the burst.