So it just shows, no matter how good the +1’er is (kuddos to those who can actually handle chrono 1v1) something needs to be changed. It’s way to effective and the AoE conditions which are not even meant for the others around target are getting hit too hard by it. It’s both (too?) effective in AoE and single target.
What? This is completely wrong. A decent thief, reaper, or warrior will absolutely wreck a mesmer in a +1. Both the thief and reaper can CC the mesmer out of the Shield4, which leads to a kill. The warrior can chain CCs and put on enough pressure to force the mesmer to retreat.
The only thing you have to be aware of is making sure you don’t waste your +1 burst on a dodge or evade, which is 100% up to you. (It’s really easy as thief or reaper ’cause you can wait for the mesmer to put up shield and then interrupt + bomb).
Yup. +1ing on a chrono is super easy particularly for those classes. It’s an easy kill and/or easier decap.
If you’re scared of aoe fallout, try a weapon with range. This ain’t rocket science xD
It’s far from an easy kill with hundreds of blocks/invulns and random dazes chaining eachother. It has too many of those while being effective in dps aswel.
I know you’re a mesmer main but come on man, be honest Chrono is not in line with the rest.
Atleast put effort in giving feedback what should change to bring them more in line.I wrote a long post on countering Condi Mes as Warrior, with video footage: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Warrior-The-Counter-To-Condi-Mes/first#post6143481. I hope you find it constructive or at least helpful.
And about your comment on how the mesmer has “hundreds of blocks,” I directly addressed that with my earlier post about +1ing as Thief or Necro. Both of those classes can 100% reliably INTERRUPT THE MESMER’S BLOCK. This let’s both the +1’er and his buddy pound on the mesmer.
I thank you for linking the video but it’s not really a factor to consider if:
1. the fight was half of the time off-point
2. the condi warr build only shines vs chrono’s but lacks pressure elsewhere + mobility
3. fighting a mesmer who (with all due respect) double dodges nothing, wasting his dodges (I know u need to dodge for clones but that wasn’t meant for clones since he got CD on f-skills)I did got close killing chrono’s multiple time in 1v1 on point with a DPS warrior, but same problem here resides; dps warrior won’t really be a thing in coming meta.
1. If you notice, the only reason the fight went off-point is because the mesmer kept having to disengage. I immediately ran onto the point each fight and would have neuted it within a few seconds of the fight.
If the mesmer tries to contest the point, then the fight is entirely in the warrior’s favor. The warrior’s melee-range pressure is way higher and on lower CDs.
2. Condi warrior pressure is crazy high in other fights — much higher than mesmer in teamfights. Condi war can spike harder and more frequently due to the low cooldowns on headbutt + zerker mode + f1’s. The condi war also has the highest access to CCs of any meta build — you can singlehandedly prevent any ele in the fight from using overloads or Wash The Pain Away.
You’re right about Condi War having lower mobility, but it’s not terrible — Condi War has perma 25% movespeed and 2 low-CD dashes (Shield 4 on 16s, Headbutt on 20s).
3. Any criticism you have of the mesmer player completely contradicts your original post, which was that mesmer is an autopilot class. You can’t say that mesmer is faceroll easy for anyone to dominate with, and then come back later and say that such and such mesmer only lost because he missed some dodges. If he played the fight perfectly, then I wouldn’t have deserved to win. Warrior isn’t autopilot either.
I also don’t agree with your assessment about the fight. Again, the fighting only moves off-point when the mesmer has to disengage (or when I get moa’d). The mesmer definitely wasted some dodges, but so did I. He’s still better than most of the mesmers you’ll run into in Unranked, and better than most of the ones in Ranked.
So it just shows, no matter how good the +1’er is (kuddos to those who can actually handle chrono 1v1) something needs to be changed. It’s way to effective and the AoE conditions which are not even meant for the others around target are getting hit too hard by it. It’s both (too?) effective in AoE and single target.
What? This is completely wrong. A decent thief, reaper, or warrior will absolutely wreck a mesmer in a +1. Both the thief and reaper can CC the mesmer out of the Shield4, which leads to a kill. The warrior can chain CCs and put on enough pressure to force the mesmer to retreat.
The only thing you have to be aware of is making sure you don’t waste your +1 burst on a dodge or evade, which is 100% up to you. (It’s really easy as thief or reaper ’cause you can wait for the mesmer to put up shield and then interrupt + bomb).
Yup. +1ing on a chrono is super easy particularly for those classes. It’s an easy kill and/or easier decap.
If you’re scared of aoe fallout, try a weapon with range. This ain’t rocket science xD
It’s far from an easy kill with hundreds of blocks/invulns and random dazes chaining eachother. It has too many of those while being effective in dps aswel.
I know you’re a mesmer main but come on man, be honest Chrono is not in line with the rest.
Atleast put effort in giving feedback what should change to bring them more in line.
I wrote a long post on countering Condi Mes as Warrior, with video footage: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Warrior-The-Counter-To-Condi-Mes/first#post6143481. I hope you find it constructive or at least helpful.
And about your comment on how the mesmer has “hundreds of blocks,” I directly addressed that with my earlier post about +1ing as Thief or Necro. Both of those classes can 100% reliably INTERRUPT THE MESMER’S BLOCK. This let’s both the +1’er and his buddy pound on the mesmer.
For those struggling vs condi mes, I’ve found a lot of success against them playing as a condi warrior (Tarcis’s Mace/Shield + Longbow). I also think the condi warrior is viable for conquest as a whole, but that’s for another thread.
I recorded a couple of fights against one of my Condi Mes friends, who made legendary pretty early in S2 and grinded through a couple of prestige ranks before stopping. I lost the first few fights while figuring the matchup out, but then started winning more than I lost, despite continuing to make many mistakes.
Video Here: https://youtu.be/gQZPat4-2bc
I’ll be the first to admit that warrior is probably my weakest class — I think I have less than 100 hours on it. I made a ton of mistakes in each of the fights, which the mesmer often exploited. But I was usually able to get a win as long as I timed most of my Burst skills properly.
I think a good warrior could do even better in this matchup. If we see any warriors in the proleagues, I’d be interested to see how they fare vs proleague-level mesmers. (In unranked, I think I’ve won like 95% of my fights vs mesmers, but that’s unranked for you).
Here are some thoughts on specific tactics and timings:
- Entering berserk stunbreaks, clears 2 condis, and gives stab. That let’s you use the Bow F1, which will clear another 3 condis. This is a full condi wipe against the mesmer. You can use 2 more F1 skills while Beserk is up, each one clears another 3 condis if you land it.
- I usually use berserk / f1 rotations defensively (primarily to clear condis) early on in the fight after the mesmer blows his load. The reason is that the mesmer clears a condi with each shatter, so if he’s already used his shatters for offense then he’s going to be low on cleanses.
- Similar to the point above, try to use your bursts AFTER the mesmer’s used a shatter. That way, he has to use another shatter to cleanse condis. Your burst will also cleanse your condis.
- Warrior’s offensive cooldowns are much faster than mesmer’s cooldowns. Headbutt is 20s, Shield4 is 16s, Berserk is 15s, F1s are 3s. Compared to Mesmer, Distortion is 42.5s, Shield4 is 24s, Blurred Frenzy is 12s. Warrior’s healing is also much higher (~1k health per second, compared to Mesmer, which is around 300-400 health per second). This means that it’s in Warrior’s favor to trade cooldowns and to draw out the fight.
- I waste a lot of dodges. Don’t be like me. Besides moa and the stun, the most important skill to dodge is actually Shield4 (the mesmer block). Use your dodge when the block is about to end — it’ll prevent the shield phantasm from being summoned. This greatly reduces the mesmer’s shatter ability (which translates into less healing for the mesmer, and less damage to you).
- The ideal burst is Headbutt -> Beserk -> Mace F1 -> [Optional: Shield4 if mesmer doesn’t have distortion up] -> Longbow skills for burning. Alternatively, you can F1 -> Shattering Blow -> F1.
- The absolute best time to burst is if he’s casting Signet of Illusion outside Distortion. Landing a headbutt then is usually a guaranteed instant win. If he covers with Distortion, then just sit back. Your offensive cooldowns will return faster than his defensive cooldowns, and you’ll be regenerating more health than him and contesting the point.
- Shield5 is great for negating a big shatterburst (which often comes when mesmer uses Sword3). It also stacks a ton of might if you pop it when the mesmer does the Sword3 -> Sword2 -> Shatter combo.
- Shattering Blow is a great all-rounder skill. You can use it to block shatters, reflect the iWarlock attack, gain stability, apply damage, and gain a strike of adrenaline.
- Don’t pop Zerker Stance on the first condi bomb. The reason is that you’ll have your Berserk Mode + F1 ready soon, which will give you a full condi clear. (I mess this up a lot in the fights).
- Berserk Mode only gives 1 stack of stability per 3 seconds. So the mesmer can interrupt your F1 with a multi-clone Distortion (each clone dazes). This can be really deadly if you were relying on the F1 to cleanse condis.
- If you whiff too many F1s, you’ll die (which is what happens in my last fight in the video). Use the Bow F1 if you need a guaranteed condi cleanse (and do it when the mesmer’s not going to be able to interrupt you).
- Moa actually isn’t so bad. I think I eat every single moa in these fights (A.net seriously needs to increase the animation visiblity). But a Moa5 -> Moa2 gets you far enough away to survive for the remaining 4 seconds or so.
- In an actual conquest mode, the mesmer is going to have a lot more mobility via portal. But the mesmer is also a lot more susceptible to getting +1’d by a thief than the warrior (who has double endure pain).
(edited by ResJudicator.7916)
So it just shows, no matter how good the +1’er is (kuddos to those who can actually handle chrono 1v1) something needs to be changed. It’s way to effective and the AoE conditions which are not even meant for the others around target are getting hit too hard by it. It’s both (too?) effective in AoE and single target.
What? This is completely wrong. A decent thief, reaper, or warrior will absolutely wreck a mesmer in a +1. Both the thief and reaper can CC the mesmer out of the Shield4, which leads to a kill. The warrior can chain CCs and put on enough pressure to force the mesmer to retreat.
The only thing you have to be aware of is making sure you don’t waste your +1 burst on a dodge or evade, which is 100% up to you. (It’s really easy as thief or reaper ’cause you can wait for the mesmer to put up shield and then interrupt + bomb).
Both death blossom and vault have frames during the animation where the thief is vulnerable. I’d suggest you get a thief friend to help you practice spotting the frames during which the thief is vulnerable. Once you get the hang of it, it becomes really easy to punish thieves if they use those skills when you have a CC ready.
For example, a thief is 100% helpless when he’s coming down on his vault animation (outside of mugging to interrupt). But it’s up to the thief’s opponent to be good enough to land skills during this animation.
Just like it was up to a DH’s opponents to actively dodge the true shot and traps. Or a mesmer’s opponents to prevent the shield phantasm from spawning.
It’s off-season.
These are all good points and tips, but you’re not really factoring player skill levels in these situations.
- A good druid will quickly gain the point in a 1v1 and will win if the mesmer tries to contest. (See, for example, Eura’s druid vs Phantaram’s mesmer in the last tournament)
Eura mains ranger and has for the last 4 years. He also has plenty of opportunities to dual against Supcutie and Zeromis for practice. Meanwhile Phantaram hasn’t been on mesmer for nearly as long as Eura has been on druid. Yes, a druid can win 1v1 against the mesmer, but they’d better outskill him by a lot.
- Necros are great in a teamfight situation vs. mesmer because staff5 and WH4 interrupt the shield, and because plague signet is easier to land in the teamfight. The nerf to moa also helps.
Yes that will work, but mesmers really shouldn’t be in a teamfight situation in the first place. You’re relying on the enemy mesmers messing up on their part, or relying on your team and necro to turn all fights with the mesmer into a teamfight.
- A good ele can hold a point vs. mesmer forever (see proleague vids). Trick is to not waste your condi cleanses while diamond skin is still up, and to stand still for most of the fight (except when dodging). That way, torment and confusion just ticks for the base, reduced damage.
The emphasis is on a good ele. All these are doable, but they require the other guy to basically outskill the mesmer.
In an even fight where both players are at similar skill levels, the mesmer always has an advantage. People that I used to have equal 50/50 duels with, I am now beating soundly after swapping to condi. It’s not that they’re bad, or that my skill level suddenly shot up, but condi mesmer is overtuned.
I disagree with the premise of the moa nerf since I don’t like nerfing core classes to compensate for elites, but I can understand it. I just can’t see a way to nerf the build without negatively affecting the core class.
Maybe a direct nerf to the conditions themseves? I’ve seen suggestions of nerfing confusion tick, and maybe capping torment/confusion at a certain number of stacks like they did with chill.
Your argument that mesmer is only counterable if you outskill him is completely wrong. It’s basically the old “my build takes huge amounts of skill and everyone else’s build is ez” fallacy.
All of the examples I gave assume above-average or better players of equal skill. A competent ele doesn’t have to “outplay” the mesmer to win, he just needs to not make basic mistakes like wasting cleanses when diamond skin is up or failing to dodge moa. It’s literally unloseable for the ele once you reach a certain degree of competency.
As for the eura v phanta matchup, you’re right that Eura has more experience on druid than phantaram does on mesmer. But it’s not like phantaram is bad. Keep in mind that phanta has been playing the condi chrono build since almost Day 1 of the balance patch. He’s been playing it for months now, at a competitive level, and practicing against other top players. I wouldn’t be so quick to assume that he lost because he was vastly outskilled. Rather, eura is able to leverage the druid’s high evasion uptime and to avoid most of the burst and/or prevent the shield phantasm from spawning.
As for teamfights, the mesmer’s strength is definitely in 1v1s, but you’ll find mesmers in 2v2s and larger fights even at the proleague. Sometimes the teams’ rotations work out in a way that the mesmer’s optimal position at the moment is to join in the larger fight (as a basic example, if home is capped, enemy druid is at far, and mesmer already placed portal at far).
As to your last point about going 50/50 against people you used to lose to — again it depends largely on the comps. Mesmer’s strength right now is 1v1s because, like you said, mesmers are not strong in teamfights. So you should be going at least 50/50 in your 1v1s as condi mes, otherwise you’re doing something wrong.
Its not sarcasm, condi mesmer can easily give 16 stacks of confusion at someone dealing 2k+ dmg per tick. And dont forget perma stealth + tankiness. Dont forget confusion also damages you while you attack..
Mesmer can also repeatedly aoe-ressurect his teammates and give them perma-quickness and perma-alacrity while chaining double-moas. (If you get moa’d while you’re already moa’d you turn into an ambient creature and there’s no counterplay to this since the mesmer never leaves stealth).
Or you could take a breath, actually learn what the class does, delete what you wrote since it’s completely wrong, and then learn to dodge the three back-to-back full-power shatters that you apparently keep eating.
We’re already seeing counters to mesmer pop up at the higher levels. Just give some time for this knowledge to trickle down and become more widespread. Just a few basic tips:
- Dodging at the end of the mesmer’s Shield4 prevents the mesmer from summoning his Shield phantasm. This phantasm is the key ingredient to the iReversion + Chronophantasma shatter chain.
- A good thief can nearly instagib a mesmer in a +1 situation since basi venom is unblockable and CC’s the mesmer out of shield. Same deal with DH, even though DH is less favored now.
- A good druid will quickly gain the point in a 1v1 and will win if the mesmer tries to contest. (See, for example, Eura’s druid vs Phantaram’s mesmer in the last tournament)
- Necros are great in a teamfight situation vs. mesmer because staff5 and WH4 interrupt the shield, and because plague signet is easier to land in the teamfight. The nerf to moa also helps.
- Apparently Tarcis has found a mace/shield + longbow merc warrior build that he says beats condi mes. (I haven’t seen enough of these matchups to comment, though).
- A good ele can hold a point vs. mesmer forever (see proleague vids). Trick is to not waste your condi cleanses while diamond skin is still up, and to stand still for most of the fight (except when dodging). That way, torment and confusion just ticks for the base, reduced damage.
Power shatter is much stronger in WvW than in PvP because PvE stats can go much higher. Whereas power shatter in PvP can’t really get through the sustain on a lot of the new specs, a fully ascended + food/oil buffed power shatter mesmer in WvW can still instagib most players from stealth (or close to it).
A lot of people weren’t using Moa if I remember correctly before the expansion in spvp. Really Mesmers in general were kind of out of favor the last six months or so before the expansion. Chronomancer is what brought them back.
Moa’s use depended heavily on the meta. Moa is a skill optimally suited to countering a sustain-heavy meta because it’s able to shut down 90% of the target’s sustain. It’s less useful when you have a burst-heavy meta, where teams can instagib targets whether or not moa is used.
This also meant that moa was more useful vs coordinated teams (who could provide more sustain via synergy and teamwork) and less useful in soloqueues. I think the few mesmers who played in ESL pre-HOT ran moa, while most of the mesmers I saw in soloqueue ran mass invis for defense.
Directly nerfing elites rather than the Csplit + Elite interaction will also lead to problems with new Elite Specs.
At this point, I think it’s pretty clear that A.net doesn’t intend for Core classes to compete with Elite specs, but rather for different Elite specs (from new expansions) to compete against each other.
But if A.net starts nerfing all the mesmer elites based on Csplit — rather than making Csplitl not work with elites — then A.net is prematurely nerfing all of the future elite specs (who presumably won’t get Csplit but will instead have some other new mechanic).
Which means A.net will inevitably end up overcompensating some other way to make those new elite specs more one-dimensional.
This sounds like the same debate people had over Season 1 matchmaking.
High MMR players complained because they’d be teamed up with Low MMR players, so they’d have to carry their team to victory. It ended up feeling like you were playing a single player game with terrible AI teammates, and trying to do better than the high MMR player on the other team (who also had terrible AI teammates). Improving your MMR just made the matchups harder for yourself.
In unranked, winning matters a lot less, so I’ve found less of a problem here. Rather, the problem becomes what Booms described: the High MMR player ends up just farming the other teams’ low MMR players, which isn’t particularly challenging or fun for the High MMR player.
Low MMR players largely enjoyed the Season 1 and Unranked system because they generally win more games. More importantly, the snowball factor helps the low MMR players feel like they’re contributing a lot to the win, even in situations where they’re being carried. (E.g., the high-MMR player wins a 1v2 at far and then successfully +1s another fight, and now the low-MMR players can zerg around and win a bunch of 4v2s or 2v1s, cap points, and rack up high personal scores).
Shield 4 is the only phantasm skill that your opponent can actively prevent by dodging.
If your opponent dodges toward the end of the Shield 4 animation, you (the mesmer) won’t summon the shield phantasm. Abusing this fact with a high-evade class (e.g. thief) makes fights against condimes way easier.
I think most players still haven’t learned how to counterplay Shield4, which makes it harder to gauge balance. This is especially true where a nerf to Shield4 would also affect other mesmer builds.
That said, if A.net ever gets around to nerfing all of the elite specs, a commensurate nerf to Shield4 would be in order.
(edited by ResJudicator.7916)
I haven’t found warriors to be problematic on condimes, since you can just kite out the resistance. (The war would be able to neut the point, though).
On the other hand, I’ve been stomping all over condi mesmers with staff thief because you can prevent the mesmer from summoning any phantasms. (Dodge for days to prevent shield iAvenger from being summoned, piercing blind to prevent iWarlock from being summoned). Then vault on mesmer randomly kills off the non-phantasm clones (which have low health). The mesmer ends up running around chaining 0-clone or 1-clone shatters and not getting any illusions back from his traits. Will upload video soon.
He saved us the trouble. There’s not one down like are describing. Having to position directly behind someone for backstab slows him down, doesn’t take off full health and leaves him vulnerable. All of which the OP doesn’t need to worry about. If you can’t have good map presence with portal there’s something wrong. Mesmer better at thief than a thief.
You linked to a pre-HOT video of the celestial meta days — power shatter mesmers weren’t even considered viable then by ESL players (I think the only two ESL players who ran mesmer back then were Helseth and Frostball), while every team still had at least one thief.
Here’s his current gameplay: <http://twitch.tv/sindrenerr/>. He 1-shots the same classes that the OP’s build would one-shot, namely other squishies.
It’s pretty crazy that you think a core F2P power-mantra-shatter zerker-amulet YOLO build is what carried the OP to legend. The more plausible explanation is some combination of OP playing well, and his opponents being poor because it was late-season so almost all the good players had already made legend.
I didn’t watch 3 hours of it but I still didn’t see him one shotting people in 1 second. He even had difficulty 2v1. The reason I’m saying this because I played against thieves all last season, even core thieves who tried to do what the OP did going pure zerker. They simply can’t do it.
Almost all of the OP’s 100-0 bursts were on enemy thieves. You’re claiming that you went through an entire season and never saw a thief 100-0 another thief? That seems highly unlikey to me. I’ve done it, had it done to me, and seen it done to others in numerous games.
The usual reason for a thief burst failing is because your opponent mitigated it somehow — either by dodging, or popping a defensive CD. But all the things that mess up a thief’s burst — invulns, dodges, evade skills, blocks, interrupts — would also neuter the mesmer’s burst. Blocks are a little iffy: the mesmer’s mirror blade goes through the block but the rest of the burst doesn’t (so you end up doing ~3k-4k damage), while thief’s basi venom interrupts the block which let’s the rest of your burst through, but it only works if your opponent blocks while basi is up.
If you think the power-shatter build carries the player, I’d strongly encourage you to try the build out. I’ll even get on my thief if you want to test out your burst attempts on a a live player.
He saved us the trouble. There’s not one down like are describing. Having to position directly behind someone for backstab slows him down, doesn’t take off full health and leaves him vulnerable. All of which the OP doesn’t need to worry about. If you can’t have good map presence with portal there’s something wrong. Mesmer better at thief than a thief.
You linked to a pre-HOT video of the celestial meta days — power shatter mesmers weren’t even considered viable then by ESL players (I think the only two ESL players who ran mesmer back then were Helseth and Frostball), while every team still had at least one thief.
Here’s his current gameplay: <http://twitch.tv/sindrenerr/>. He 1-shots the same classes that the OP’s build would one-shot, namely other squishies.
It’s pretty crazy that you think a core F2P power-mantra-shatter zerker-amulet YOLO build is what carried the OP to legend. The more plausible explanation is some combination of OP playing well, and his opponents being poor because it was late-season so almost all the good players had already made legend.
I think at the very least they should revert the Longbow5 (“LB5” change, or make it channel much faster. The one semi-unique role that DH had was AOE CC and area denial — no other class did it better. Maw, Hammer5, and LB5 gives DH three barriers that are impossible to escape without either stab or blink, and TOF adds a barrier that does heavy damage to people who try to blink out.
In my mind, that was pretty much the main reason for a team to take DH over a meta class. The nerf to LB5 basically makes the skill unuseable against decent players, and the additional nerf to ToF damage makes porting out of it less punishing (although it still hurts).
Otherwise, the class doesn’t seem to offer enough to fulfill any roles in this meta:
- Not enough sustained support or sustained DPS to be an effective teamfighter (relative to meta builds).
- The cooldown on burst attempts (the whole LB2+JI+TOF+F1) is too long to make it an effective assassin-type class (relative to rev and thief).
- Not enough self-sustain and sustained DPS to be an effective side-point fighter (loses 1v1s to rev, scrapper, druid, mes, and possibly thieves depending on the DH’s build and terrain)
- Not enough mobility to be an effective roamer
I personally think giving DH a stronger presence in teamfights would require the fewest tweaks.
No joke. For a thief to down someone in 1 second they have to be in melee range and attacking from behind. I’m sure anyone on any class would be assisted in their journey to legendary with the ability to stealth kill anyone in 1 second.
Power shatter also has to be in melee range to 100-0 people, except core power mesmer has longer cooldowns in between burst attempts, less mobility, fewer evades, and less access to stealth. OP’s build is an inferior version of thief in this meta; I doubt you’d be able to make it work if you were unable to take legendary as thief.
Just watch some of Sindrennerr’s streams to see a d/p thief achieve similar results, but also managing to decap and project his presence everywhere on the map. You could come up with a comparable montage of 1-shots from like an hour of his stream.
Can’t wait for the inevitable Fivedawgs post
O right i didnt even consider alacrity and Persistence of Memory, you’d probably be able to pull this quite a bit longer than 17 secs. Just imagine if you were running sigil of ether and mimic as well. Lol this is too high maths for me but i wish someone would really calc the max duration a mesmer can invul.
Also im not really knocking mes for having so much more invul than everyone else. Mesmers have always had strong defense with the power creep i wont even deny that they deserve stronger defense. I think the main problem is how much hp they get back while they do it. Restorative illusions is the main offender imo.
FYI, neither blurred frenzy or shield are invulns. The shield block is actually the mesmer’s greatest weakness against a thief.
Assuming the thief is doing his job by +1ing the fight: time your basi venom backstab opener for when the mesmer pops his shield.
You’ll interrupt the shield (basi venom makes your attack unblockable), stun the mesmer, and prevent him from summoning the shield phantasm, which is crucial for his shatters. It’s usually a guaranteed kill if your teammate is competent, because the shield4 makes up the bulk of the mesmer’s defense.
Yup, if the thief does this, then there may be a chance at winning the 2 v 1. =P
Mesmer is a 1v1 powerhouse in all levels of play. But at higher levels, it’s pretty easy to +1 a mesmer for quick kill. This requires coordination and competence from both players, though, which is one reason why mesmer may seem “invulnerable” in soloqueues.
O right i didnt even consider alacrity and Persistence of Memory, you’d probably be able to pull this quite a bit longer than 17 secs. Just imagine if you were running sigil of ether and mimic as well. Lol this is too high maths for me but i wish someone would really calc the max duration a mesmer can invul.
Also im not really knocking mes for having so much more invul than everyone else. Mesmers have always had strong defense with the power creep i wont even deny that they deserve stronger defense. I think the main problem is how much hp they get back while they do it. Restorative illusions is the main offender imo.
FYI, neither blurred frenzy or shield are invulns. The shield block is actually the mesmer’s greatest weakness against a thief.
Assuming the thief is doing his job by +1ing the fight: time your basi venom backstab opener for when the mesmer pops his shield.
You’ll interrupt the shield (basi venom makes your attack unblockable), stun the mesmer, and prevent him from summoning the shield phantasm, which is crucial for his shatters. It’s usually a guaranteed kill if your teammate is competent, because the shield4 makes up the bulk of the mesmer’s defense.
Unblockable marks are the necro’s counterplay to blocks… It’s how necros deal with rev shield5, mesmer shield4, guardian f3/shelter, etc.
Blocks in turn counter plague signet (which is huge), signet corrupts, shroud skills (except the minor chill ticks from standing in Reaper Shroud5). Unblockable marks adds counterplay, for example Staff5 to interrupt mesmer’s Shield4 and then immediately plague signet to transfer all of the torment and confusion the mesmer just stacked on you.
OP’s suggestion just dumbs the game down, which is probably why A.net never listened.
i seriously don’ know man, mes has 10 second teleport on staff, double block on shield and evade on sword with invul on f4, all can be doubled with f5 and blocks on staff 5
F4 is the true clutch. It allows Mes to take a deep breath no matter what’s happening.
Staff is a lesser concern so long as you wait for the swap or force him out of it.
The Block can be directly countered with sig of might. Actually sword 2 is the more prominent factor. Of course neither can be activated if the mes is CC’d.
Like I said, I don’t think the fight is an easy roflstomp win, only that the tools are there to deal.
yea, except the fact that sig of might is useless, and mesmer sword 3 is also a stunbreak
Sword 3 isn’t a stunbreak. It hasn’t been one since A.net recoded it like last year. The only stunbreak on the meta build is blink.
Signet of Illusions also has one of the longest cast times in the game (1.25 seconds), which makes it really easy to interrupt (even if he covers w/ quickness). The heal well is also fairly easy to interrupt.
I can see potential for m/sh+sw/t condi war to win if played well, but I need to find a good warrior to test it out.
Elites + Csplit is honestly the only real problem. Mesmer is strong in 1v1, but relatively weak in teamfights outside of moa+csplit. So decoupling elites from csplit would narrow the mesmer’s role in games.
Most everything else is a L2P issue. The mesmer’s “get out of jail free” cards are all based on tempo, which you can interrupt. For example, the mesmer relies heavily on shield-blocks and blurred frenzy to buy enough time for other defensive skills and shatters to come off CD. If you disrupt the chain, you can shut down the mesmer. And many classes have the skills to disrupt this chain: necro staff5, DH F1, engie slick shoes, ele shocking aura, rev shiro port + staff5, thief basi venom, druid smokescale knockdown.
The “get out of jail free” cards you’re thinking of can all be counterplayed. You can interrupt signet of illusion (which has one of the longest cast times of any skill in the game, at 1.25 seconds). If he’s covering with distortion, then that means he’s been saving that skill the whole fight up until this point, which means you were bad at applying pressure. You can counterplay Csplit because you know where the mesmer will be when the timer runs out, so you can position yourself to put down a lot of burst right then. Or just take advantage of the Csplit to neut the point (mesmer can’t contest in Csplit).
If you try to beat a mesmer through attrition, it will take forever. If you’re thoughtful about skill usage, you can down a mesmer quickly in a +1 situation, and you can probably down most of the average mesmers in 1v1s, too.
Of course teaming up with friends gives you an advantage, that’s true for just about every single aspect of the game: PvP, PvE, WvW, Roleplaying(?), playing the market, doing the story missions.
GW2 is an MMO, it was designed to be a social game. You’re encouraged to make friends with people and then enjoy the game with them. You don’t have to go it alone. I’d encourage you to find others who are at around your skill level (be generous here — some of your teammates are probably better than you think) and team up with them. This opens up a whole new layer of the game for you to experience: coordinating rotations (even if it’s just 2 or 3 of you), working on combos, etc.
Of course, you’re more than welcome to do the solo thing, too. But it doesn’t sound like you’re having a good experience with that. Just my 2 cents.
Everyone already knows that moa + csplit is overperforming, and we already have a trillion threads on the topic. This thread is about ways to counter mesmer in the current meta.
(1) Smart rotations to +1 the mesmer is really strong, since the mesmer’s only disengage is blink or sword3/staff2 jukes (the jukes you can outplay). Rotate in a class that can CC the mesmer through shieldblock and you can get a quick kill, then +1 the teamfight until the mesmer respawns. I gave a list earlier in the thread of good ways to CC through the shieldblock, but thieves/DH/revs are great for this.
(2) If you have 2 eles on your team, or an ele+druid, you can rotate in one of the eles or druids to swap with whoever is currently fighting the mesmer. The druid/ele can hold the point almost indefinitely, which makes the fight pointless for the mesmer. (Obviously this is for ranked/unranked and not tournaments).
(3) Most condi mesmers will die to meta medi-DH in a 1v1. At higher levels I think condi mes still wins the matchup. But for 95% of the people complaining in this thread, DH is a good counter.
(4) Maybe the balance patches will open up some new counters, IDK.
they did perfect changes for scepter ele dmg builds imo.
The problem is ENDLESS PROTECTION from prot on aura, which was the SAME REASON they could stack over 10s of prot as a DD with elemental attunement since launch.
Shoulda been nerfed 2 years ago..
That’s incorrect.
Ele survivability is designed around healing and having the protection boon. They lack the combination of disengages, immunities, blocks, stealth, high evasion uptime, and natural armor/health that other classes use to stay alive. This is why the only viable ele builds have been bruiser, bunker, and support.
The best counter to a mesmer right now is for the person fighting the mesmer to play somewhat defensively to buy time for a DPS class to +1 the fight.
The mesmer relies heavily on the double shield-block for survivability and clone generation (which is used to fuel healing + distortion invuln), and also to buy time for other defensive CDs. If a power-burst class +1’s the fight at the right time to CC the block into a burst, it’s usually a guaranteed fast kill.
Examples of good ways to CC through a block for the 1’er include:
- Rev shiro port into staff5 into legend swap for hydroleech proc into weapswap for sword2 [sorry, no idea why it’s underlining random text]
- DH LB3 + judge’s intervention into F1 is also really strong. The LB3 knocks him out of block (due to heavy light), and the F1 will let you pull him out of blurred frenzy, dodge, or a second shield block. Follow up with ToF so he can’t just blink out. Teammate lays on dmg during all this.
- DH F1 into ToF (to prevent mes from blinking out, which will likely be his next response); follow-up CC and dmg
- Thief opener using basi venom, which will likely proc immob; followup CC and dmg
- Engie slick shoes (if this is still a thing)
- Engie magnet (if toolkit ever becomes a thing again)
- Necro Warhorn 4
- Necro Staff5
A non-DPS class that’s been fighting the mes can also facilitate the +1 by CCing through the block:
- Ele focus air5 when your teammate is about to burst the mes.
If you take out a mesmer who’s already dropped the portal entrance, the whole portal skill goes on CD (the mesmer can’t respawn and drop the exit), which is pretty huge.
TLDR: +1 the mesmer with a burst class, but don’t immediately jump into the fight and dump your skills. Wait for mesmer to put up the shield then use an unblockable CC and lay on the damage. Even if you don’t instagib the mesmer, you’ll throw his tempo and CDs off, which will greatly tip the fight in your favor.
(edited by ResJudicator.7916)
Second match & who’s on the opposing team ……same exact 5 man premade (who admitted they “love farming noobs” after I asked them why aren’t they playing in ranked)
I ran into that premade in unranked while duo-queuing. We won like 500-60. I got the sense that they were just random people who decided to group together to have some fun.
OMG thank you! My point exactly. We were all just working to get better at team play. Like isn’t that the point since it’s 5v5?
No. You’re not allowed to make friends in this game. You should constantly rage at your teammates for being bad (facts don’t matter here, be creative), and be the solitary hero that Tyria needs but doesn’t deserve.
It’s the simple age old argument of skill/reward.
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The biggest most obvious skills in the game all belong to Ele: churning earth, dragon’s tooth, meteor shower, ice spike, eruption, lava font (it starts doing damage a full second after it appears on the ground).
and yet those skills are some of the worst and most unrewarding skills in the game.
100% agreed. I’m predicting we’ll see a 3% damage increase on dragon’s tooth, another 13% increase on churning earth, and a 12% damage increase in ice spike so that they are as powerful as the new-and-improved shatterstone. </s>
(edited by ResJudicator.7916)
It’s the simple age old argument of skill/reward.
Mesmer’s get a complete shutdown for just having enough skill to land the stupid moa. Mesmer then has enough dps to kill whatever player just got transformed.
Warrior gun flame is the biggest most obvious skill animation in the game and has a channel time that feels like forever, it is super easy to dodge, and if it does land it takes up at most 70% of a players health. AND THIS IS THE SKILL GETTING NERFED???All of the Mesmers i’ve fought in legendary leave the Moa on the backburner until they need it, as soon as you think you’re about to get them down, you get moa’d.
Its ridiculously imbalanced. Duration 10s – 5s. Thank you.
Check your facts. Moa has a longer cast time than gunflame and a slightly more colorful animation (but to be fair, both skills could use better visuals). Moa is incredibly easy to dodge, which is why mesmers use CC to set up the moa. The more skills the mesmer uses to set up the moa (like shatters to burn dodges, CCs to ensure success), the fewer skills he has to deal follow-up damage.
The Moa+Csplit combo that definitely needs some nerfing, but spouting ignorance and misidentifying the issues doesn’t help anyone.
The biggest most obvious skills in the game all belong to Ele: churning earth, dragon’s tooth, meteor shower, ice spike, eruption, lava font (it starts doing damage a full second after it appears on the ground).
Second match & who’s on the opposing team ……same exact 5 man premade (who admitted they “love farming noobs” after I asked them why aren’t they playing in ranked)
I ran into that premade in unranked while duo-queuing. We won like 500-60. I got the sense that they were just random people who decided to group together to have some fun.
I agree, mesmers are WAY overpowered right now. But it’s mostly because of the condition spike / burst ability and strong access to stability / condition removal. Most mesmers could care less about moa
Strong stability access? What are you even talking about XD
This chrono meta build has a few glaring weaknesses. One is it comes with a single stun break and NO stability.
It has 3 and potentially 5. Shatter can be used when stunned This means diversion, distortion, and continuum shift can be used defensibly. They also have a well and potentially decoy or blink if they want it instead of an extra well. The ileap once activated can cancel stun.
You and Mr. Alex Shatter appear to be thinking of S1 bunker mesmer, which is completely different.
Condishatter runs portal, SOI, and blink (the one stunbreak). Dropping portal severely diminishes your map coverage. Dropping SOI kills your pressure against people who don’t facetank your shatters. And FYI, the I-leap swap stopped being a stunbreak when A.net re-coded the skill last year.
The main issue with mes right now is that Csplit allows moa to be used on a ~65s CD. So you have a hugely impactful skill that was originally balanced for 180s now costing only 65s. The solution is to either (1) decouple csplit from elites, or (2) reduce moa duration and CD (so that it has less synergy with csplit but is still balanced outside of csplit).
Otherwise, condi shatter excels in 1v1s vs the bruiser classes (although maybe we’ll see some counters in this meta, not sure), but has relatively low pressure in teamfights (outside of moa, see the above paragraph) and has issues debunking a competent ele who doesn’t panic-cleanse and autoattack through confusion.
Either:
(1) Make Csplit not work with elites; OR
(2) Reduce Moa duration and CD (say, 6s duration, 90s CD).
Either one of those options reduces the value of the moa + csplit combo. The heart of the problem is that Moa was originally balanced as a 180s CD skill. Csplit reduces the cost of Moa to a ~65s CD, while keeping the same benefit.
A 10s super-daze on 180s is balanced, and arguably underperforming if you’re not in a sustain meta.
A 10s super-daze on a ~65s CD is NOT balanced. It has more impact in both 1v1, skirmish, and teamfight scenarios than any other non-180s-CD elite in the game.
Option #1 keeps moa on a 180s CD cost, which removes the imbalance. Option #2 makes moa less effective with csplit (now 6s duration on ~65s CD), and makes moa slightly more effective for CORE power mesmer.
Letting moa’s jump would also add a tremendous amount of counterplay for better players who know the map.
Any other buffs to moa survivability — like free stability or condi cleanse — are wrong imo. If you reduce moa to 6s duration, then the moa can easily evade for half of that and LOS/kite for the other. And if you decouple moa from csplit, then you’re back to the old 180s CD moa which no one good ever complained about.
I’ve been thinking along similar lines, but haven’t found something that’s truly effective yet. But then again, I’m pretty trash on warrior.
If you want to test your warrior builds against a mesmer, feel free to hit me up. I’m certainly excited about the possibility of mesmer having a counter in 1v1s.
I can see condi wars being a reliable counter to mesmers now w/ the buffed ardrenal health.
That said, I kind of wish they nerfed condi mes and buffed power mes just because I prefer the power mes playstyle. At the very least, I would have supported csplit not affecting elites, and then a global CD reduction on elites for core mes.
For mesmer, I expect them to make Csplit not reset elites. This seems to be a pretty popular proposal among high-level mesmer mains, and it’d open up Csplit to a lot more uses.
Duel/Insp/Chaos PU Mantra spam build is incredibly easy to play and very effective in small fights. A drawn-out fight vs a reaper is in the mesmer’s favor, because the mesmer can disengage much more easily than the reaper. Not to mention the mesmer can quickly end the fight if he just stealth/kites the shroud.
I haven’t WvW’d as much lately, but I imagine a well-played power rev could win the matchup due to Facet of Darkness (reveal), Sword2 tracking through stealth, and the potential for a Staff5 instagib. The matchup would depend heavily on the terrain though — ambient mobs and walls mess up the Sword2 projectiles and diminish the damage from Sword3.
Great guide. There’s another strategy that I like that is helpful for power shatter (so it won’t see as much play in this meta):
Stealth Portal Decap:
You’re pushing far point and the enemy rotates someone in to contest the point. Because you’re running power shatter, you now find yourself in an unfavorable 1v1. If you portal back to mid, chances are the enemy will stay until the portal closes to make sure you don’t double back through the portal to get a free decap. So what you can do is open the portal, wait until it’s about to close, then run on top of it and enter stealth. It will look like you entered the portal, and then the portal will close while you’re still in stealth, so the enemy will think it’s safe to rotate back towards mid fight. Easy decap.
I wouldn’t recommend it in the current meta because condi-shatter doesn’t take stealth, and because most 1v1 matchups are in your favor.
Words
OK, I think I see where your confusion comes from. In S1, you didn’t have to carry games if you had a low MMR. Having a low MMR meant that (1) You were more likely to get high MMR players on your team; and (2) You were more likely to get low MMR players on the enemy team.
In other words, tanking your MMR helped you get carried to legend.
In S2, it’s the opposite: having a low MMR now makes it very difficult to advance.
So which MM algorithm did S1 use? MMR vs MMR ? If yes then only one pip was awarded per wins and few were those who gained 2 or 3 pip for losing or winning.
And my understanding of the extra pip is when one of the player on your team was a pro or whatever. But most people would agree it was MMR vs MMR; knowing how glicko 2 works, I can say with 95% certainty that less than 1% of the player base gained more than 10 pip total (extra from win and 5hose for loss) last season.
Finally, I am not disputing the growth because once there is a possibility anything can happen. What I am disputing is YOUR ASSEMENT THAT LOW MMR PLAYERS used method 1 and 2 to get to legendary, and I have pretty much explained why ( bunker meta aside.)
But you haven’t explained it. You just made assumptions that make no sense. Your purported knowledge of Glicko-2 is completely irrelevant — what you need is data about the MMR distribution curve in S1, along with player activity.
You apparently agree that anyone could reach Legendary in S1 with a 50% winrate. So now you argue that only ~1% of people did so — a statistic you’ve completely made up without any data. I don’t know how many “low MMR” people hit Legendary, either — only A.net has that answer. But it was obviously a significant enough number to generate all the “I made Legendary in S1 but am in MMR hell for S2” posts that we now see.
And about folks who climbed to legendary by playing against other MMR players, I am having trouble believing this. Simply because, last season you had to have at 55 60 % winrate to progress. So by the time, the " low MMR player" get to diamond, his MMR would pretty much be stable and within range of other diamond players. So how is possible for someone with kitten to 60% winrate to keep on facing low MMR players?
Also if I may, last season pro players complained about have low MMR on their team, so my semblance of S1 MMR is 3 2 3 2 1 vs 4 1 1 4 2. Still, I acknowledge that low MMR vs Low MMR happen but the trend stopped in diamond. Because you don’t get to win 30 games ( amount of games needed to get to diamond) without it affect your MMR by at least ( 30*30 = 900 pts). Granted you can win one and lose another, in the end you still needed ( in s1) a total of 30 wins (net value) to progress. Conceptually, IA ma struggling with your assertion of low MMR legendary.
There’s a few really easy ways low MMR players could reach legendary in Season 1 without ever playing high-MMR players:
Method 1: If you start with low MMR, just winning/losing at about a 50% ratio would slowly get you to legendary without raising your MMR. This is because you could gain pips from losing to a team with higher MMR. In fact, it was possible to reach legendary with less than a 50% win ratio for this reason.
Method 2: Even if you somehow started with an inflated MMR, you could tank it at a safe zone (i.e. area where there are no pip losses) by losing repeatedly. Then climb to the next safe zone courtesy of getting easy games due to your now-low MMR. Then tank again from losing repeatedly.
And even if you were queued into games with proleague players (due to low population numbers), your low MMR would put them onto your team. That’s what we mean by getting to legendary in Season 1 without having to face high-MMR players. The only time you’d ever have to face a high-MMR player in Season 1 is if you queued at an off-hour.
I agree with you both method however I disagree with your assertion that low MMR players were the ones reaping the benefits of the system( that’s is exploiting it to get to leendary.) The way I see it, average and high tier player were the ones who exploited it not a low MMR player. And here is why:
First let me start by making the following assumption
-As it stand, the lowest rating is 100 . The default 1500 and the highest 5000. OK let’s assume that most players are around the default rating; and with 350 being the maximal deviation. Most average players are between 1150 – 1850 and anyone who is below 1150 is a low MMR player and one above 1850 is a high MMR player.
-Second point, the S1 meta aside, let’s look at the player potential in their respective MMR zone; and for the sake of time, I’ll mainly focus on low MMR players.
A low MMR player is most likely learning the game, still learning his rotation, have a basic knowledge of who does what, still learning his counters .etc… my point being he knows he can’t carry( the whole notion o carrying in 5 vs 5 game is absurd but it does happen) a game.
-finally, I want to put it out there, MMR != SKILL, However most high MMR players are skilled, likewise most Low MMR players are unskilled.
And wit out more ado,
Method 1 : in short, you are saying you could get to leendary (even with a 50% winrate) simply because you can gain pip by losing. True, but out of those 30 pip how many were gained by losing, since you said the player has a 50% winrate until ruby. OK, let’s assume that the player MMR upon crossing to ruby is (100 + 1150/2 = 625). The only way this player would keep on facing low MMR player in diamond is if 50 % of his 30 pips( Net) needed to advanced came from losing that’s is ( 15 × 30 = 450 .. Player Rating in diamond = 625 + 450 = 1075 which is still low) and that’s quite hard to accomplish ( that’s is progressing by losing ) or if like you said (method 2) upon getting to diamond the Low MMR player with a now Average MMR ( since gaining 15 pip by losing is almost impossible) tanked his MMR again.
Based on the assumptions above, a Low MMR player confidence is not high enough that he would be willing to lose a few games in hope of getting easier matches or winning the next one. Why because he is still learning the game, etc… he has close to zero carry potential (meta bunker aside; using carry for the sake of argument). But you see where I am going, to throw games( tank your MMR) you have to be sure/certain that you can carry the next one. Most low MMR players just don’t have that mindset.
It seems as if average or high MMR players were the one who got to legendary by first lowering their MMR to avoid facing their peers; because they knew they would win their next game.
I can see how it can happen, but it’s synonymous to gambling your house to a low MMR players because you he can’t garantee the outcome of his game. All this assuming that the system only did 1 1 1 1 1 vs 1111 or 5 5 5 5 5 vs 5 5 5 5 5; because my anecdotal S1 experience differs from that as I had a mix of players( went up against pro players in ruby and had some in my team last season or simply 3 2 2 4 1 vs 4 1 1 4 2).
Conclusion: it’s highly unlikely, for a low MMR player ( low MMR player advancing by losing or tanking his MMR even though he can’t garantee his next win) to luck ride his way to.legendary with the S1 MM algorithm, bunker meta aside.
What? I think you’re overcomplicating things without adding any extra accuracy.
Here’s the easiest, cleanest way I can explain it: In S1, every win gives you at least 1 pip (up to 3 pips). Losses can award 1 pip, 0 pips, or subtract 1 pip (depending on MMR difference). So with a 50% winrate, you have a greater-than-50% chance of gaining a pip every game. This means that a 50% winrate will slowly push you up the leaderboard, with very little MMR growth.
(edited by ResJudicator.7916)
And about folks who climbed to legendary by playing against other MMR players, I am having trouble believing this. Simply because, last season you had to have at 55 60 % winrate to progress. So by the time, the " low MMR player" get to diamond, his MMR would pretty much be stable and within range of other diamond players. So how is possible for someone with kitten to 60% winrate to keep on facing low MMR players?
Also if I may, last season pro players complained about have low MMR on their team, so my semblance of S1 MMR is 3 2 3 2 1 vs 4 1 1 4 2. Still, I acknowledge that low MMR vs Low MMR happen but the trend stopped in diamond. Because you don’t get to win 30 games ( amount of games needed to get to diamond) without it affect your MMR by at least ( 30*30 = 900 pts). Granted you can win one and lose another, in the end you still needed ( in s1) a total of 30 wins (net value) to progress. Conceptually, IA ma struggling with your assertion of low MMR legendary.
There’s a few really easy ways low MMR players could reach legendary in Season 1 without ever playing high-MMR players:
Method 1: If you start with low MMR, just winning/losing at about a 50% ratio would slowly get you to legendary without raising your MMR. This is because you could gain pips from losing to a team with higher MMR. In fact, it was possible to reach legendary with less than a 50% win ratio for this reason.
Method 2: Even if you somehow started with an inflated MMR, you could tank it at a safe zone (i.e. area where there are no pip losses) by losing repeatedly. Then climb to the next safe zone courtesy of getting easy games due to your now-low MMR. Then tank again from losing repeatedly.
And even if you were queued into games with proleague players (due to low population numbers), your low MMR would put them onto your team. That’s what we mean by getting to legendary in Season 1 without having to face high-MMR players. The only time you’d ever have to face a high-MMR player in Season 1 is if you queued at an off-hour.
I personally would rather see a slightly modified (smarter) S2 system with the following changes:
- Increase RD (rating deviation) slightly for purposes of forming a team —* This gives “average” players a higher chance to team with “above average” players, or “below average” a higher chance to team with “average.” So having a high MMR is less a guarantee of victory, and a low MMR less a guarantee of loss.
- Tie MMR loss to Pip Loss —* The only regular complaint I see with S2 is about people claiming that they’ve fallen into “MMR hell”. This only happens if you’re constantly losing games (so losing MMR) without losing pips (so not dropping down and playing with worse players). This could easily be resolved by adjusting the system so that you only lose MMR when you lose a pip. In other words, if you are 0 pips into Ruby, further losses won’t decrease your MMR. Voila, no more MMR hell.
- Smarter MMR system —* The amount of MMR you gain/lose after a game should be affected by the final score. For example, the MMR impact for a 50-500 loss vs an equal-MMR team should be greater than the impact if you lost by only 495-500 to that same team. And the system could even increase your MMR if you had a close loss vs a much stronger team. This may incentivize players to try harder even when they think the loss is inevitable. (This ties in with the next suggestion)
- More transparent MMRs* — Let players see their personal MMR. Also, display the average MMRs of each team after a game. This way, players can track their own growth (or regression), and also better understand how their games were lined up. This would be particularly helpful for players who incorrectly feel like they’re stuck in MMR Hell. (For example, several of the MMR Hell gameplay vids that have been posted show that the poster was actually on the stronger team, but the poster simply lacked the awareness to realize it).
I’ve seen, even suggested myself many of these tweaks to matchmaking, and the end result would be the same.
I think the Season1 matchmaker was nearly spot on, besides the high rating deviation between players on each team, as long as that could get tweaked, bring it on. In my personal opinion, nearly all the problems with Season1 stem from the league system itself, not the matchmaker.
A tight grouping or small rating deviation inside a team is a great thing, unless of course you are up against other tightly grouped teams of random skill levels. I’m not fussed whether the rating deviation is relaxed in the way you suggested, or the same result in any other way.
S1 allowed low MMR players to reach legendary by beating low MMR teams. They achieved the division without having to face high MMR players.
That’s my sense as well. If you only care about even, challenging matches, then S1’s system was good. But in S1, league placement had absolutely 0 correlation with skill. In fact, it was easier for bad players to climb because they’d get teamed up with very good players.
In S2, league placement still isn’t a great indicator of skill, but there’s at least some correlation. And many of the flaws can be fixed.
It wouldn’t be easy to get it right, but how would you do it otherwise? How else will would you promote individual players out of lower tiers in the short period a season lasts?
So the goal is to give additional pips to individual players based on merit, but I’m not convinced that is necessary to having a skill based league system. It might even create problems, like division getting way too high for their skill, via boosted rewards for beating on minionmancers & eles all game and accomplishing nothing.
I have a rather simple proposal to change the matchmaker so this problem doesn’t happen in the first place, and that’s simply ship a priority change of how MMR grouping works.
In any pip range we have a variety of MMRs, let’s group them into 3 camps – below average, average, and above average.
Right now, from my understanding of the matchmaker, we’ll have a team of 5 taken from the below average camp and randomly faced off against a team from the below average, average, or above average camp.
When ArenaNet heard our desires of having teammates relatively close to us in skill, this MMR grouping was absolutely NOT what we wanted, if I can be so bold as to speak for the general population.
The matchmaking in season1 was good in the way that it had high quality, close matches. A big problem (excluding other problems) is that it did whatever it took to even the team MMRs, including adding players who didn’t belong there, to handicap, or boost the team MMR. This was disruptive.
What I propose is a combination of S1 and S2 matchmaking, where matchmaking still determines your matchups based on pip range, like it does now, to stay in line of ‘perserving prestige’ in divisions.
The main difference would be instead of finding two very different groups of 5 alike MMR people, and having a potentially imbalanced match, try to find the 10 most similarly rated players in MMR within the pip range, rank them #1-10 based on MMR, and have even vs. odds. With an expanding PIP range, and variation in MMRs accepted as the queue goes on.
In a 5v5 with the 10 most similarly rated players, there won’t be as big a need to promote certain players over others, as it’ll be much harder for you to become underrated in MMR by the system.
I could even TLDR; and say bring back the matchmaker from the era of old Leaderboards & Solo queue days. At both extremes of skill, the best players had 70% winrate, and the worst players had about a 45% winrate. Right now I’d ballpark the two extremes at a respective 85% and 20% winrate.
With the league infrastructure we have now, and a few more tweaks, we can have a pretty awesome casual PvP league. The problem was that after we invented the wheel, we invented and used a square wheel with points/grind based leaderboards, and then a triangular wheel – In S1, getting high divisions without fighting tough enemies – and now we’re using a rectangular wheel in S2 – grouped up based on MMR and face different MMR groups!
I’m a bit weary of all the crazy matchmaker/ladder fads we’ve tested. I’m happy we added the league system which was a huge step forward, but we just need to get a normal and ordinary matchmaker to complement it like we had before.
I think your proposed system is how S1 worked — find players based on pip range and with similar MMRs, and then split them into teams such that each team has similar MMR. This means that below-average players could reach legendary simply by beating other below-average and average players. And above-average players would have to constantly beat other above-average players to reach legendary. The system really breaks down when there aren’t enough people playing at a given time, which causes the matchmaker to expand the MMR range such that good players wind up having to carry terrible players.
I personally would rather see a slightly modified (smarter) S2 system with the following changes:
- Increase RD (rating deviation) slightly for purposes of forming a team —* This gives “average” players a higher chance to team with “above average” players, or “below average” a higher chance to team with “average.” So having a high MMR is less a guarantee of victory, and a low MMR less a guarantee of loss.
- Tie MMR loss to Pip Loss —* The only regular complaint I see with S2 is about people claiming that they’ve fallen into “MMR hell”. This only happens if you’re constantly losing games (so losing MMR) without losing pips (so not dropping down and playing with worse players). This could easily be resolved by adjusting the system so that you only lose MMR when you lose a pip. In other words, if you are 0 pips into Ruby, further losses won’t decrease your MMR. Voila, no more MMR hell.
- Smarter MMR system —* The amount of MMR you gain/lose after a game should be affected by the final score. For example, the MMR impact for a 50-500 loss vs an equal-MMR team should be greater than the impact if you lost by only 495-500 to that same team. And the system could even increase your MMR if you had a close loss vs a much stronger team. This may incentivize players to try harder even when they think the loss is inevitable. (This ties in with the next suggestion)
- More transparent MMRs* — Let players see their personal MMR. Also, display the average MMRs of each team after a game. This way, players can track their own growth (or regression), and also better understand how their games were lined up. This would be particularly helpful for players who incorrectly feel like they’re stuck in MMR Hell. (For example, several of the MMR Hell gameplay vids that have been posted show that the poster was actually on the stronger team, but the poster simply lacked the awareness to realize it).
They switched to the only comp viable. You were too stubborn to realize that. The fact that every single pro team switched to it including the best teams and players confirms that statement. Was it favorable to abandon a comp for another during a season…maybe not but the alternative solution of staying with a significantly weaker comp was worse.
Also I never said anything about you not being around nor does your busy life sway any feeling of cares in me….we’re all busy fyi. The shot at all the players in NA pro league was uncalled for though.
Have a nice day.
“Only viable comp” – They switched to the easiest comp. Players make the game, not classes. The only exception to that would be warrior, which provides nothing over another class.
Staff Thief kills clones as fast as they’re produced, cleaves downs, and had more than enough survivability in Season 1’s meta. Impact Strike also would have ended fights instead of letting the same person get ressed over 5 times in a single fight. There’s always more than 1 viable comp, despite how efficient that comp may be. You can call me stubborn all you want, I play more than one class and had no issue swapping if I thought it was necessary for a win. The majority of the player base swaps to the easiest class to play because it has the least room for error – but that doesn’t mean it has the largest payback when played optimally. The issue arises when their reluctance towards challenge inhibits their ability to comprehend the game from a strategic standpoint.
Don’t expect people to know better since there’s a large assumption that everyone in Pro League knows what they’re doing.
Narcaris has a good point. Running a thief is difficult because it allows very little room for error — both from the team’s perspective as well as the team’s perspective. One bad rotation from the team can put the thief in a position where he’s not able to contribute well. And one bad movement from the thief is enough to get him downed. We can all accept that as true.
But a thief comp played perfectly may still be better than a meta comp that is also played perfectly. But if both teams make a few mistakes, then the meta comp wins. It makes sense for proleague teams (which are competing for cash) to play the safer comp — especially when you have to deal with uncontrollable issues like lag, random DCs, and A.net bugs (immob, sliding downstate, etc.).
It’s probably the same reason why players in Ranked complain about thieves. When you have a thief on your team, you need to play smarter so that your thief has the opportunity to shine. Doing stupid stuff like leaving a teamfight on a slow class to decap is going to screw up your thief hard, and the scoreboard will make it look like it was the thief that was dragging the team down rather than you.
(edited by ResJudicator.7916)
I’ve noticed something similar in NA as well. The proleague players tend to get matched up on one team (due to similar MMR). Sometimes I wind up on the proleague team, which ends up being a guaranteed win no matter how poorly I play. Other times I wind up on the opposite team, which ends up being a nearly impossible game no matter how well I play.
…Can’t tell you how many times I have seen elementalists go down quickly after removing their regeneration, protection; especially if they are trying to bunker on a point and refuse to disengage.
The ele goes down a lot faster if you moa him.
Completely agree with OP. The elite specs offer too much of an upgrade over any of the core traitlines, which is killing a lot of build diversity. I suppose A.net’s long-term goal is to have multiple competing elite-specs, which would make sense when we reach that point.
If you didn’t like how well D/D ele was able to perform as a bruiser pre-specialization, then I’m not sure why you would like this meta with scrappers and revs doing everything better (except healing teammates I guess).
Within that new specialization meta, D/D ele was performing way better compared to scrapper in this meta. More damage, more escape, has a fair chance against necro.
Again, we’re talking pre-specialization. I wasn’t a fan of post-specialization D/D ele either.