Guild Wars 2

Thanks for reminding me to clean out my inbox. I was starting to wonder why I wasn’t getting any new messages from people. Inbox clean now!

As for state of the game stuff, we here at Anet don’t host or coordinate those. I asked our community team about the potential to do it, and they expressed openness to it, but we don’t farm that stuff out – the community has to come to us with the offer I guess. We just kind of show up and answer questions I guess, lol.

Edit,

I posted a link to the video, and said it was about 55 minutes in. Other people posted right before I did though!

As I’ve said before – I am not on the balance team… at best I can present things and harp on issues and constantly bring them up to keep them in focus, and to remind the people on the team and who make the decisions in the end that it is an issue that needs to get resolved. I’m a dungeon content designer who plays ranger at a high level, and that is why I am in the meetings, to be a representative for that sect (for lack of a better word).

This thread and my presence really isn’t damage control, otherwise I would have failed pretty hard at it in business terms. Making a visible list of issues to bring up with devs and allowing non-devs to see it isn’t exactly good damage control since it can set up high expectations, and the only reason this thread has reached the size it has (I feel) Is because I am posting in it; drawing even more attention that the topic would have garnered otherwise. So if anything my coming here has served only to shine a brighter light on the improvements needed to the ranger/pet/player dynamic (trademark).

I’m just going to lock this since the original post was deleted.

Sebrent.3625:

Robert Hrouda, could you please weigh in on whether or not things like the in-game advantages given by having HoM pets, etc. are also on the list of “issues” for the Ranger?

I think it would be beneficial if we knew where the community and the devs were on the same page. I think it’d be beneficial to the community to know what are the sort of things we know to simply “be patient” on. For example, we know to be patient on pet AI and pets have no Agony Resist in fractals. That’s comforting to know that those are acknowledged problems and being fixed.

Well, right now the HoM pets are at a disadvantage with their health bug in that they have less, lol. When that bug is fixed in the next patch though, there will be no difference. They don’t have any increased stats or anything – they are just supposed to be skin choices.

Bailey.6892:

Hello Robert,
Was wondering what was agreed upon in the last discussion and what currently is planned to change for rangers in this next patch? I realize that things may be added as you go, although at this point the team has to be working on items already just curious what they are and hoping they are more than health pool fixs for ravens etc.

Thank you.

We tend not to announce these things since issues can pop up and derail us. However this next patch’s time for the balance team is mostly spoken for already. We all acknowledge the core problems that are listed, but the fix isn’t just going to be someone changing a few numbers. The issue of pet AI is being worked on, but that is nothing new either – our tech-priests have been working on that problem for a while now.
I’ll keep attention focused on ranger pets though.

Jarin Arenos.2736:

Robert, this has been a wonderfully enlightening and encouraging thread to follow. Is there any chance of seeing discussions like this from devs more often regarding class issues elsewhere?

Thanks, I’m trying! As for other discussions like this, not really. I try to encourage my work mates to get on the forums more, but they are very busy – especially the balance folks. I work hard too, but I try to schedule in time to go onto the forums and interact instead of just lurk and skim topics. Also I try to take the opportunity of loading screens to steal a quick glance and see if there is anything I could post quickly in… however that doesn’t always go as planned and I end up spending too much time on the forums, lol.

Arifialdy.1534:

robert if you already at the raven, please check the black widow spider to, it has very low health, while the other spider is 37xx he is just 13xx, make it worsT spider to use, please take care of this cause this is my best HOM reward

Zounds! You are correct! But that was also foreseen by the designer who fixed the White Raven, so expect that to be fixed as well next patch!

btw I was wrong about my answer to the raven question. I updated my post!

Moddo.7105:

Is this first time pets has ever been discussed? If not could we get a list of things been there done that at meetings.

We talk about anything pertaining to game balance. Yes pets have been brought up before many times.

I don’t imagine we’ll post a transcript of topics. The things we talk about are best reflected by patch notes.

sjarulfa.2496:

PS – Robert, could you ask whoever deals with pet stats to see if the white raven (HoM) and regular raven have the same stats. Its often reported the white has less vit with no corresponding increase elsewhere.

that is something I can personally do

Both the white raven and the black raven share identical stats. There is no differences between them with the exception that one is black and one is white. Just cosmetic differences – all the numbers are the same.

EDIT/UPDATE:
Turns out there is currently a health discrepancy between the white raven and black raven – I was checking our current information for our next patch, which showed that they were the same.
Right now it is true though, they have a bit less HP. Our next patch will address and fix this.

Sebrent.3625:

Are we allowed to know when this next discussion is, Robert? ;-)

Today! We have them multiple times per week. I may not bring up all of the issues from the list since there are a bunch of other class things to discuss, but I’ll seed the list details multiple times throughout the coming meetings to keep it on everyone’s mind, and spend some time this weekend coming up with proposals and such so I can better guide the conversation.

I’ve been updating the list with things that get brought up in here. That list is getting long! lol.

Anyways, just wanted to take a moment to thank everyone for their thoughts and reactions. I have plenty to bring up in the next meeting for sure. I’ll keep lurking and updating the list as I see new things that I think are shiny and neat.

Also, thank you for the very respectful discussion. It’s always nice to be able to drop into a new thread and see polite, thoughtful, and constructive feedback.

Ision.3207:

Robert, let tell you what I think adding a pet dodge mechanic will resolve for 90% of your Ranger player base: nothing.

Like Gutbuster has stated, “Often it’s difficult enough to know exactly when you need to dodge in order to avoid some damage, with a pet dodge you’d be required to not only keep track of your own position but also your pet’s exact position which also trying to see your pet amongst all the spell graphics surrounding bosses getting nuked, seeing red circles on the floor which may be behind the boss since that’s where your pet is, camera angles etc the list goes on a bit. In addition you’d also have to hit your own dodge key as well as an additional F key or any other key bind you have.”

I agree with him whole heartedly.

Yes, without a doubt there will be a small fraction of Ranger players that will benefit from the mechanic: the “Pro” player, if you will. These people have ridiculously quick reflexes, as well a superb RIGs and a mouse with dozens of key binds they have no problem dealing with. I’m NOT talking bad about these players; hey, god bless ’em, they are the exceptions to the general rule, and they make the most of it. These tend to be your best of the best players and are often found in sPvP/tPvP.

But for the non-PRO player, adding a dodge mechanic for the pet will be an utter waste of time in dealing with the problem of Pets dying from AOE too much in dungeons —- the difference will be insignicant for the typical Ranger player who is under heavy duress from swarms of mobs, surrounded with heavy particle effects and trying to keep himself alive and contributing to the party.

Look, I’m not talking about that bottom 5 to 10% either, the folks that really have very poor reflexes and positional awareness, and who really can’t cope with the basic pace of this game. At least not in a difficult dungeon setting anyway. No, I’m referring to that big fat mass of players in the middle: also known as: the “majority” – the “average” – the “typical”.

For this group, many of the ideas being offered here will only result in the outcome stated by Shiren, “So micromanaging and resource management are the game-play being pushed by that kind of design. A lot of us play the class for the AI companion, not a micromanaged companion. Micromanaging, while increasing the skill cap (in a certain way), isn’t going to solve the problem for a lot of rangers, and for many players it takes the class in a direction they don’t want to go in.”

In essence many of the changes being proposed would transform the Ranger into a class that does not resemble the one that many people were looking for when they rolled it. Please keep this in mind as you consider the many OTHER options that exist to address pet mechanics and survivability.

Thank you.

We’re aware of that. Again part of what that list is, is a launching point for conversation and dialogue. Part of our jobs as designers is to take feedback and try to figure out the core of what is being said, and develop plans around that. I’m not saying those things are going to happen – I wish I could, but I can’t. It’s just something I can turn into a bullet point for us to address and talk about. These things take time, but I promise you I will be bringing these things up.

EDIT:
Oh, and in regards to the Jade Maw targeting pets, I made the conscious decision to allow it to target non-players. I have the ability to change that, but I prefer not to on the grounds that there is some gameplay there. My pet has made the ultimate sacrifice quite a few times while we res’d a down party members, providing groups with a much needed window to help others up and recover. I know it can be a bit frustrating if everything is going great and you’re not having any problems, but I’d much rather the pet provide a moment of relief for those struggling. I am open to debate on the subject, but that is for threads over in the dungeon forum, not here

DOUBLE EDIT:
Jade Maw should not target downed pets. We have a bug on it already and are aware of it.

One of the reasons why the Ranger and pet are built the way that they are, is because if we gave the ranger all the power, then the pet would have to be useless and vestigial, or everyone would claim rangers are OP. That’s one of the core reasons we can’t just increase pet attribute numbers. Without a method for avoiding damage, it also means your pet takes 4 hits in dungeons instead of only 2 or 3, so it doesn’t really solve the problem.
We have WvW reps in the balance meeting as well, so I’ll be sure to poke and prod them about ranger pets in zerg battles to get their opinions. Personally I tend to do well keeping a pet non-hostile until the zergs actually clash – then switching him to hostile and managing his target. Otherwise when I try to shoot some arrows at somebody, Cuddles the Black Widow decides it is time to charge into battle. I really don’t feel like this is a bad solution. While most people may resist it, if you want your pet to charge the front line and lead the attack, consider grabbing up the signet that makes your pet invulnerable for a few seconds.

@Swagg – that’s a lovely chart

Vox Hollow.2736:

back on topic, fellas?

I agree. I have a habit of driving things off topic. Back to pets please!

I’ll look into it and try to make sure Grast uses the bubble properly, but we also made the roar he uses to summon the boulders interruptable so a focused group could stand a chance if Grast died or ever misbehaved.

Sebrent.3625:

On my mesmer, with one build, I can be effective in 1v1s, small skirmishes, as well as zerg fights while my Ranger seems unable to do this. The pet dying so quickly and easily in zerg fights is one part of this.

Rangers are able to do it. Just equip a long bow, throw down a spike trap, and be mindful of your barrage and you’re going to make a big difference. A well placed barrage from 2 or 3 rangers will make rushing forward a lot less appealing to an attacking army, and when they finally do come charging in switch to axes or some other close quarters weapon and micro your pet.
I just don’t like the big battles and tend to avoid them – but longbows are pretty strong in WvW.

I’ll admit I don’t WvW as much as I likely should. When I do though, I tend to avoid the larger battles due to culling and those pesky stealth thieves who seem to pick my Anet tag out of the crowd and proceed to stick daggers in my spine.
When I WvW, I tend to run off into areas where I can get the drop on someone who is running to an objective that is contested. Rangers are really powerful in 1v1, especially when you can get the jump on someone and have good daze\evasion. When I am caught up ikittenerg trying to push back another zerg, I tend to keep my pet in pacifist mode so it doesn’t go running off to its death.
In a 1v1-3 situation though, double hyenas and a trusty spider can be a real game changer and difference maker.

Mastermavrick.2439:

@Robert Hrouda

My main gripe is that agony resistance doesn’t carry over to ANY player spawned/controlled minions which in FotM10+ hurts the player a lot, more so for ranger since x % total our of dps is our pet.

We’re aware of and working towards a solution for that problem. Agony Resistance on summoned creatures and pets is something we are trying to do.

Pendleton.6385:

I already said it once much earlier on in this thread … but I want to reiterate my respect for Robert Hrouda coming to these forums. He bascially entered the lions den.

The honest feedback and responses we are getting in this thread are great. Interaction with a dev about a core ranger mechanic … really cool.

You all have been very respectful and welcoming. I’ll try to stick around as much as I can. My only fear is not meeting expectations – not in being called names and the like.

That being said, I am a dungeon designer. I don’t do the actual class balance work – I just go to the meetings and make proposals for the folks who actually build this stuff. At the very least I can echo things being said, draft proposals based on feedback from threads like these, and try to convince folks about how much of a priority issues like these should be. My momma taught me “The squeakiest wheel gets the grease” and I hold that to be very true, and I tend to doggedly follow things that I bring up.

We’re aware of a lot of the issues with ranger pets that have been brought up here, so none of this has been surprising so far. We’re working on the core issues I listed, and have been for a while now.

I added health and stamina bar placement just to put it on the list, but those feel like more cosmetic changes than gameplay experience altering changes. I certainly think there is a time and a place for those recommendations, but for this thread let’s just stay focused on the chore mechanics that could be improved and ways that they can be adjusted.

I like the recommendations about the f1 key being more versatile. I certainly think there is something more to be done there with it. When we talk about these things internally, I will be sure that we take a long look at all the F-key commands and see what improvements can be made. I personally favor toggles that allow you more control (what if F1 was both “attack” and “return!” that got toggled? What does that free up? Could F5 be a thing?). There are lots of options to explore.

There have been some calls for perma-stowed pets, and while I have said this in other areas I will say it again here. I don’t think we will let you perma-stow pets – the main reason being we want the player to be interacting with the pet, and the pet to be part of the identity of the player. The role of ranger is to to have a pet in our game, and with that comes a bit of extra micromanagement that comes with the package. Right now the micromanage is difficult and more tools are desired, and I honestly feel that once we make micromanaging pets easier, more responsive, and better in general that players won’t mind that they don’t have perma-stow capabilities.

My Charr ranger and her pets

Armor: Charr cultural t1, helmet and shoulders hidden (always)
Back slot: Max upgraded fractal capacitor
Shortbow: Fractal Shortbow
Sword and dagger: Honor of the Waves set token rewards.

Arekai.5698:

Removing the “come back” skill would mean your pet pulls even more aggro of things you don’t want anything to do with.
We already mentioned good ideas a thousand times but due to getting ignored it doesn’t get through.

The new stance modification would operate as the “return to me” whereas the attack stance would operate like it does now.
Let’s be serious in the consideration: “Return to me” currently functions the same exact way as turning your pet non-combative. The pet runs back to you to be at your side. It’s the same functionality right now, so honestly the return to me button is kind of useless with the exception it is assigned to a hotkey.

Helequin.2608:

Robert – you may be on to an idea there. I still wonder if “Attack and be aggro” and “Heel and do nothing” are a bit too polar. An inbetween setting or two would be highly useful (especailly in a WvW zerg where I want my bet to be active, but close by) if you can get this to work while keeping the interface managable.

Also, pet which is currently heeling could use some utility. Sure, I call the pet back so it doesn’t get killed – at which point it is useless except for eisting and thereby allowing me to use my condition removal. I know not all pets have buffs, but they should continue to use skills like this when called back to the ranger and left on “heel” mode. Or perhaps there could be an automatic buff for each pet type when on passive, immediately cancelled when the pet is sent to any kind of attack (so the player cannot stack them).

Perhaps:
F1 – Attack
F2 – Special
F3 – Dodge-like thing
F4 – Swap
F5 – Toggle Behaviour (as suggested ealier, please bind this as it’s a small icon. Even more critical it also functions as a return).

A very valid point that I will bring up as a consideration in the meetings when talking about this subject. I think that requires a bit more AI work, but its worth it to at least bring up the possibility and see where things go from there.

Here’s a thought I just had.

What if we made f3 use a defensive dodge skill instead of returning to the player, and we re-did the “Guard” and “Avoid Combat” button to better serve the function of “return and Heel” and “Attack and be aggro”

So it would be f1 to attack target, f2 to use special skill, f3 to use defensive ‘dodge’ skill, and our stance button would then be tweaked.

Let’s try to keep this thread focused on ranger pets
ranger weapons and bugs will certainly have their threads to be focused on, but let’s keep the discussion focused around pets to keep thoughts focused. “purity of purpose” and all that.
I’ll add Search and Rescue and lick wounds to the list.

Ision.3207:

Robert, please … PLEASE .. NOT this: – “A button that makes your pet momentarily not take damage. A sort of “Dodge” button for you to control. This is mainly due to us making sure players know how to use their dodge-roll or damage mitigation skills, which pets don’t have, and don’t always know how to escape properly when recalled without a direct pet swap.”

For the love of god, we already have enough things to juggle while fighting swarms of mobs in a dungeon ! —- I’m sure it will be fine for all the “PRO” players, but for us mere mortals – it will solve NOTHING>

I do however love this: "-In dungeons, pet’s get more health/armor. "

Ideas are springboards. I’m not saying that is what we are going to do, but it’s something I will bring up to see if the group comes up with anything. Even ideas that may not work can be a starting point for an idea that will – and often times all a good idea needs is a not-so-good idea to serve as the platform that helps it rise above the rest.

I am still here and watching. I’m currently composing a list of ideas and statements from this thread to bring to our balance meetings (held multiple times per week), that I can present to at least talk about with the group.
I go to the meetings as a representative for rangers and dungeons, since I play both of those things extensively. Here’s how my list is looking so far:

Core problems: (Note: we are very aware of both of these things)
-Pet AI.
-Pet management tools
-pet F2 skill executing faster.
Things to investigate:
-Pets auto attacks only hitting a single target.
-On “return” command, your pet gains swiftness so it can escape out of red rings more easily.
-A button that makes your pet momentarily not take damage. A sort of “Dodge” button for you to control. This is mainly due to us making sure players know how to use their dodge-roll or damage mitigation skills, which pets don’t have, and don’t always know how to escape properly when recalled without a direct pet swap. (NOTE: This is a springboard idea for pets being able to avoid damage)
-Pet/minion AR that is shared with the master’s stats.
-More defensive pet skills.
-Vigor applied to pets turns into swiftness or protection.
-In dungeons, pet’s get more health/armor.
-Lick wounds not always working. Pet just runs back and stands on your body.
-Search and Rescue buggy
-F2 skills activating faster.
-Health/stamina bars for pets
-pet names not being undone when removing them from the “kennel”
-Boons displayed over pet health bar on UI

Admired.7461:

Okay, so we know a Thief can do this. It seems only logical since they have such high evading capabilities. Warriors used to be able to do solo this guy, but I’m not sure about now. Have there been any other reported professions able to solo Lupicus (proof or very well argued theories)?

My guess of other possible professions:
Elementalist, Guardian, Mesmer(?)

I bet a ranger could do it easy… it just might take a bit longer. Sword\dagger and short bow, and go full condi and evasion, and I bet it could be done. I may just have to try it myself… but I imagine people who say I am using dev stuff and not being fair.

We tried giving them reduced damage from AOE/attacks, and it opened up other problems – mainly that a team of 2 rangers could take on almost any boss in a dungeon by smart swapping of pets and letting the pet take aggro. It’s unfortunate, but we can’t just increase and decrease numbers until pets are perfect – we’ve tried really hard, but numbers are not going to fix pets without letting them break everything. We have to look deeper into mechanics, AI, player actions, and skills.
As much as they seem vestigial, the “attack” and “return” keybinds are really the only thing that can give the player any control, and they can be a bit unwieldy. I would recommend though that if you have never tried using those keybinds, try them out the next time you’re in a dungeon, your pet will thank you for it.
Also, I find that a ranged pet does better in dungeons. My typical pet setup for dungeons is Hyena (because having 2 knockdowns and another hyena is super good), and a Drake (almost any). I know this is contradictory to what I just said about ranged pets being good, but I use the keybinds a lot and that dramatically increases survivability when taking 2-3 hits is all you want the pet to do.
Spiders and devourers can be really good to bring because of the fact that they are ranged. Devourers have an escape from melee ability as well, and spiders have CC, which helps keep them alive while you reposition and pet-swap (or return) in a more favorable place. Tankier pets require more management, but once you get there and know how to use it (in combination with pet swap), you’ll find you’re not facing the death cooldown as often as before.
That and you can name your spiders “Cuddles” and your devourer “Citizen Snips” and get a good laugh out of people’s reactions.

Idolicious.6091:

Pet dodge when the Ranger dodges? Who really thinks that is a good idea?

I sure as hell do not want to be the only class forced to blow their stamina due to stupid pet AI or their inability to not get destroyed by anything and everything that isn’t a singular white level 80 mob in the open world. Okay, I exaggerate (only a bit, mind you), but my point stands.

That has to be one of the dumbest suggestions I’ve ever heard (no offense to anyone), and I can’t even believe more than one single person thinks that it is a good idea.

If you don’t mean to give offense, than don’t say things that can easily be taken with offense. Just because the idea wouldn’t solve the problem, doesn’t mean it can’t be a springboard for other ideas.
“A way to make pets dodge would be good” is what I took away from it. What if a button existed that could make your pet dodge roll, or gave it evasion for a few frames (no animation!) It could be called the “Dodge!” button, and every time I used it I could make a DBZ Abridged joke to my mates on TS.

But that doesn’t solve the problem. It’s a cool thought that I can bring up with folks, but wouldn’t solve the problem of pets in dungeons while possibly adversely affecting PvP. Making the numbers bigger doesn’t work either (trust me, we’ve tried)

Horrorscope.7632:

I agree with that. The part missing is the rationale that assumes Dungeons aren’t PvE. They are, Dungeons is PvE to. So why is the “E” different in Dungeons?

Ah gotcha. Sorry bout that. There are numerical differences in play for the creatures you fight in dungeons, and we build them differently. The “army” of a dungeon (things you fight) are given different skills than what you encounter in the open world. It is numerically different, and mechanically different than our open world.

HannaDeFreitas.4236:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

We can’t have rangers that change based on PvP, open world, and dungeons

Someone needs to tell you this Robert: Anet will never, ever achieve balance unless you do a proper PvP/PvE split.
This is undeniable; some skills simply cannot be equally good in both.

So, you could continue applying bandages over bandages and never end up with a final result thus being haunted with profession issues for the years to come… or you could sit down and split all skills properly.
I know it’s a good effort, but to be blunt we paid for a balanced vanilla game, and we expect it at some point.
It can take even 6 months, but it must happen sooner or later.

Ranger is just the tip of the iceberg of that issue, look at Warriors forced to not use many adren skills as it would be a DPS loss, look at D/D Eles being terribly OP in WvW because nerfs only apply to sPvP, look at Engineers.

All classes have issues that are due to the inexistance of PvP/PvE splitting, and until said split happens (which should include WvW unless you want it to keep being an unbalanced zergfest) we will not resolve dungeon issues or PvP issues.

Where I work when there is a problem we find a definitive solution even if it takes effort because then the issue is eliminated.
Some companies ignore or give temporary solutions to issues, and those problems continue to haunt them for their entire existence.
Do what needs to be done

We do have a PvP, PvE split. That’s normal and something GW players are familiar with. What I was trying to say was that we can’t have a PvP split, a PvE split, and a Dungeon split. That’s just way too much, especially if we start having to do it for other class stuff. It makes balancing much more difficult and time consuming.

Ursan.7846:

Anyways Robert, I’m assuming there’s just technical limitations with the program when trying to apply AR to your pet? Or do you not want to do that. If so, may I ask why?

I’m of the opinion that your pet and summon should share the master’s AR. That seems like the simplest most straight-forward solution. We all agree the AR is a problem that has potential fixes, it’s just figuring out how best to fix it and making sure whatever we choose works.

Hey folks, looks like someone beat me to the punch of moving the conversation over here instead of in the dungeon threads.

As for AR resistance on pets and such, know that I am actively looking into solutions to that. It’s not something we are unaware of, and it is an issue we are trying to develop solutions for. I am at scale 52 in the fractals, and pet insta-death above scale 20 is something I am acutely aware of and trying to resolve.

As for me being a PR person, that’s just not true. I’m a designer just trying to interact and talk with people. Plus I can’t imagine any company would want a mouth-piece who has as many typos, spelling errors, and grammatical nonsense as I do speaking for them.

Woah I steered this thread off track quickly with my ranger talk. I’ll see if I can squeeze in some time to go over to the class thread and make a post in there about it, but for now let’s get focused back on our dungeon talk instead.

Saint.4165:

@Robert Hrouda.1327:

Did you skim past my post or do you realize that I’m right and have nothing to say? This is the most frustrating game-related issue I have ever faced. SOME feedback would be appreciated.

Yes, I read your post, the one about how we don’t listen to the players and only listen to QA, which is wrong. Just because dungeons are harder for you, and you don’t like it, doesn’t mean you speak for everyone. There’s plenty of support for our dungeon changes, even here on the forum. Choosing to ignore that people are enjoying the dungeons and cherry picking complaints that match your own isn’t something I typically respond to, because it’s just wrong. Yes some people are upset because we added mechanical difficulty to AC, but there are also many happy people who enjoy that you have to play the game at a deeper level now in AC. We listen to our Alphas, our QA, and players. I typically try not reply to posts to call people out on being incorrect on their evidence, so I didn’t reply to it.

As for why I don’t respond to every single post that gets brought up, it’s because I don’t have the time. I’m not a forum moderator or a community member – I’m a designer, and I spend my day building things. When I have spare moments I pop onto the forum to see what I can do. I can’t respond to everything – even if I wanted to, and I certainly wish I could do more. There are a lot of good points I get from our forums that I don’t respond to, and just do something about. Just because we don’t respond, doesn’t mean we don’t care.

Cyga.1246:

How can you use heal by mouse click on icon? It really faster using shortcut. Nice fight btw.

I use mouse click as well. I actually unbind my heal skill from my keyboard so I don’t accidentally use it trying to do something else. The mouse click means my brain has a moment to think about if I really need it or not, and thus I don’t end up wasting heals in dire situations.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Nah, that looked full legit from where I sit. Very impressive use of your shadow stepping to get in and out as needed.

Very impressive shadow stepping indeed.

Yeah, it just looked like you flubbed something when you went down – I fully believe you could do a perfect solo. I’ll also look into this dodge roll bug…

Gotta say I am really impressed. Those two times you went down you had the ability to dodge it and get away, but just must have flubbed it. I feel like you could do a full solo run despite those moments.
That being said, you had some incredible thief play. I’ll have our dudes here take a look at it to make sure nothing funky is going on or something isn’t broken, but from my point of view this was just a nice classy run. Great job!

pulsecodesgnl.3470:

Inquiry for you then (regarding Rangers in dungeons). My first level 80 was a Ranger and I loved the skills and gameplay, A LOT. At first I had a mix between damage and survivability and thought I was doing fine damage-wise; I mean, I survived, I was constantly doing damage, had a intuitive and on-demand rotation that kept max damage up, and contributed to the party in a lot of ways in lieu of support as well, or so I thought.

I began to question how I compared to other players to improve my playstyle and found that my damage was incredibly paltry, that other players (not even spec’d for damage) could down mobs and do more damage in general. So I conversed with a guildie on his damage Ranger spec, came up with my own to maximize damage output and noticed the difference in DPS quite obviously yet I was still far behind other classes and non-DPS builds.

Now this same guildie (who has spent 1500 hours on this main Ranger of his and played every facet of the game) came to the same consensus a long time ago. The fact that Rangers simply do less damage in a damage spec than pretty much any other class (maybe Condition Necro if you argue bleedcaps).

That being said and moving onto the dungeon part, once you get to a point in this game where you have accomplished most everything as far as the main content goes you aim for the vanity (e.g. skins) which are accomplished by repeating content (farming dungeon tokens). Grouping up with people as a Ranger is a risky process, not just because of how the group will tolerate you, but because the composition of a group may require that someone with more skill help carry them to a degree, and that simply cannot be done with a Ranger. Every Ranger build I have experimented with has a ‘better’-version in some other class/build. Rangers were promised attention months ago, and as a result received buffs to their Underwater skills.

As a player of a Ranger in dungeons, do you not agree with this assessment? If not, is there something that we are doing wrong as players that make Rangers more viable? Is this concern still being looked into by the designers? And as a fellow Ranger player, do you ever speak on our behalf?

Rangers have their highs and lows like every other class. They have really good DPS, but they have to work at it a bit more than other classes like warrior or mesmer. It’s possible just not as easy.
As for ranger balance, we have frequent meetings about balance where we discuss that sort of stuff – I go to those meetings on behalf of dungeon content and to lend my experience with ranger knowledge.

I personally accept the tradeoff of damage for survivability (Can’t do damage if you’re dead). I tend to run a condition build using shortbow and sword\dagger, and focus on being supportive and holding aggro while keeping a steady output of DPS through conditions. Rangers have an incredible amount of evasion and damage mitigation if you are very focused and know when to use your skills and heals (prot on dodge roll, vigor on heals) means you can keep prot for when you mess up, and always have evasions ready. There are some very successful dungeon builds, but most of them aren’t DPS focused.
We’re working on ideas for making pets better in dungeons. There’s a list of reasons we can’t just tweak a number and call it good (it wouldn’t actually solve the problem), but it is something we are aware of and working on.
One of the things you have to think about, is how the game is played. If we buff rangers just for dungeons, than they are too strong for the open world. Considering I can solo most content in the open world by letting my pet tank, I feel ranger is very powerful outside of dungeons. We can’t have rangers that change based on PvP, open world, and dungeons because that gets too confusing for players and puts us on a slippery slope. Whatever we do to the ranger, it has to happen in both the open world and dungeons, so it requires more than just number tweaks. You see a lot of bots as rangers for that very reason – they are really strong open world classes, and buffing them for the sake of dungeons doesn’t work out to being a good fix.

Wow this is getting long. I should go to the class balance forums some time, lol. Sorry for the text wall!

It has not vanished – it’s in the sticky discussion thread at the top of the page. I have also replied to it.
Locking this thread.

OGDeadHead.8326:

Dear Robert Hrouda,

since you’re seemingly the man in charge when it comes to dungeons, would you kindly stop abusing broken mechanics that punishes certain classes, until the class devs have been able to actually fix these broken class mechanics?

Yes, I’m primarily talking about rangers, or rather, their pets.

By designing your dungeon encounters in such manner that one class in particular gets punished for a, in many ways, broken class mechanic, thereby abusing this weakness and making these encounters harder, is imho kinda cheap.

I think you’re fully aware of the issues I’m talking about here, right?

Until a fix for all the issues that involves pets has been pushed out to live servers, I strongly suggest you design your dungeons in such a way that no encounter abuses this broken mechanic.

You do realise that many rangers gets kicked out of groups just because of their class, or more so, because of the core mechanic that comes with this class?

So, in all fairness, if an encounter becomes a lot harder to deal with because of pets, or due to the fact that there’s simply no way to keep a pet alive during some encounters (and please remember, the ranger class is balanced around having their pet alive and working), then please stop designing your encounters in such a manner that they constantly put the ranger class at a major disadvantage!

Having issues with this? Then please go ahead and talk to the guys responsible for designing/balancing the classes about this. Just letting things go on in a broken state month after month is indeed very tiresome.

Thanks for reading.

I personally play Ranger as my main, so I’m fairly aware of how to manage the pet, and do my testing as a ranger primarily. What mechanic do you feel is expressly punishing to a ranger pet?
I’m more than aware of how squishy pets can be in dungeons, but if you could list out all the issues you are speaking of, I can try and address them.

Update 3/1

Dungeon

Ascalonian Catacombs

-Colossus Rumblus’s Cave In Shout can now be interrupted.
-Detha’s Path: Fixed an issue with the Ghost Eater encounter where the Ghost Eater would sometimes get stuck in the trap. We also fixed an issue causing the traps to sometimes not fire and break, blocking the fight.

Update with recent patch:
Dungeon

Ascalonian Catacombs

- Colossus Rumblus’s Cave In Shout can now be interrupted.
Detha’s Path: Fixed an issue with the Ghost Eater encounter where the Ghost Eater would sometimes get stuck in the trap. We also fixed an issue causing the traps to sometimes not fire and break, blocking the fight.

I’ve said it before, and I will say it again: Our QA teams test the dungeons at the dungeon level, and at 80. They test it with different ranges of gear, and different people. I’ve watched non-QA groups do similar things, under various conditions. We have a review process.
Will 80’s have an easier time? Sure. They have more tools to use and more experience with the class. Our side-kicking system is something we are working on too, to ensure that things remain challenging for those folks and that their gear doesn’t make all the difference.
Will we ever release a video of our internal testing process? Highly doubtful. Just as I doubt we will ever post the builds, classes, and gear our testers test with.

One thing we see frequently with at-level people going into dungeons, is that while their character is the right level, their gear is often 10+ levels behind them. When you combine a low average gear level, not having all your skills/tools available, and not being as experienced with the class, it’s going to be significantly more difficult than what an 80 makes it look like.
We build dungeons for at-level players, and then reduce the strength of higher level players to bring them more in line with the players at that level. We do not balance for 80’s sidekicked down to at-level.

We are aware of the increase in FPS issues with catacombs and other areas of the game, and are actively working on a solution.

Also working on solutions to the following problems presented by the Ghost Eater in Detha’s chain:
1. Ghost Eater can get stuck in the traps
2. Sometimes after fulling charging the trap, the trap won’t go off if it becomes active with GE already inside of it. A temporary solution is to kite it out and then draw it back in, or get the trap fully charged without it being inside the trap when it happens.
3. Interrupting Rumblus does not stop his yell that brings down the ceiling collapse.

We are aware of the increase in FPS issues with catacombs and other areas of the game, and are actively working on a solution.

Also working on solutions to the following problems presented by the Ghost Eater in Detha’s chain:
1. Ghost Eater can get stuck in the traps
2. Sometimes after fulling charging the trap, the trap won’t go off if it becomes active with GE already inside of it. A temporary solution is to kite it out and then draw it back in, or get the trap fully charged without it being inside the trap when it happens.
3. Interrupting Rumblus does not stop his yell that brings down the ceiling collapse.

JungleNin.8379:

It’s bad when even the staff can’t stick to the topic.

I think its worse when staff doesn’t say anything at all, but I can see where you are coming from. Figured I’d post it here since there have been a few threads and posts about it throughout the dungeon forum.

@Kuishen

Thanks for the feedback. I noticed however you mention that your necro minions were causing ectoplasms. I built it specifically so that only players can draw ectoplasms off – that way rangers, mesmers, and necros wouldn’t enrage their party just by playing. I think someone in your party may have been attacking when they shouldn’t have been.

We are currently looking into this issue.

Iehova.9518:

Was it really THAT hard to document every kitten dungeon change?

ROOOOB!

Also did they touch Lupus? Tell me they didn’t touch Lupus, I need a new world record tonight.

We did not touch Lupicus. Go do your world records.

I do document the changes. I am not in charge of the patch notes – that’s someone else job, and they decided that the patch note wasn’t worth including. Keep in mind we have to translate these things, and there could be several reasons it was not included, from budget to time constraint. I am working with the people who write the patch notes though, to not drop off as many as they have been lately for dungeons.

We had them in story before launch, but what we found is that we couldn’t strike a balance between the amount we give for completing story mode, and the difficult difference. Our feedback was that rather than face the challenge of Explorable dungeons, high skill groups would just afk faceroll the much easier story mode content for the guaranteed smaller token amount. We tried several things, but couldn’t strike the balance, so we removed tokens from story mode as a reward and put them into explorable mode only as a reward.