Guild Wars 2

Devildoc.6721:

If they do that they lose a good 3.5k damage off their combo, so you see, it works out to some degree that way too.

Yes, but they can do the Steal after the backstab and make some now hardly usable/unusable traits for this combo of use For example: “Kleptomaniac” “Hidden Thief”

Devildoc.6721:

It is weird, but I’m just saying I’d rather see it than a flat out damage nerf, or worse, complete overhaul of the thief to remove the initiative system and put them on cooldowns.

I’d rather see a 0.5-1s weapon skill GCD that prevents mug+C&D+bs all going off at once than see C&D on a 45s cooldown.

Mind you, our utilities would need to be able to ignore this GCD, so it wouldn’t really be a GCD, just a CD across weapon skills.

Even 0.5s would disrupt the instant gank build, while leaving every other use of the skills viable.

Like I wrote yesterday, ppl will start to use infiltration signet instead of Steal to fasten their combo, so whiners will be still whining about the fast blink+C&D combo and backstab (because positioning for it takes some time = GCD won´t be as much problem there….)

Devildoc.6721:

STRanger.5120:

Devildoc.6721:

It’s not even close, 1s would just prevent all the damage from happening at once but still allow you to spam the same skill successive times.

If you want this game to be the same as the other ones (SW:TOR, WoW etc.), why bother, just go and play them.
I play GW because I want class diversity and difference, that´s the biggest pro of this game, you know?

I’m looking at it like this.

The class is going to continually get nerfed, every single patch, as it has been since launch.

There is blood in the water. Arenanet has been giving people the nerfs they want, so people keep asking for them, because they know they’ll get them.

I would rather have a short GCD, than an across the board damage nerf again. A short GCD would prevent all the damage in a spike from happening at once that really only has place in very specific PVP builds but allow thieves who aren’t doing that once a minute instagank build to still be strong.

If they nerf the base damage of backstab, C&D, or mug, realize that it will affect far more than just that once a minute instagank thief in pvp. In fact it’ll affect thieves who use bs WITHOUT using those instagank builds more than it will the instagank builds. It will also impact your actual damage far more than the patch notes say. Pistol whip’s base damage was nerfed by 15%. When you factor scaling with power and weapon damage into it, it was more like 27%, when you factor crit damage into it, it was more like a 40% loss. No joke overnight I went from 10k pistolwhips to 6k. But as people said.. people were still using haste and 2 pistol whips in pvp.. because the nerf hit the wrong target, not the damage output, but the fact that you can haste and land 2 pistol whips in a row in a very short frame of time, the impact on thieves who used the skill in PVE, without haste, was far greater.

I don’t want that happening to backstab thieves. Normal backstab thieves aren’t hitting for 18k. They’re hitting for about 8k, tops, usually more like 5k-6.5k.

I don’t think we have a “no nerfs” option.

At this point our best bet is to try and pick our poison and hope for the best.

I just have to think if there was a short GCD that prevented people from pistol whipping twice while in haste.. would I still be standing there autoattacking as my best source of damage today?

I see your point, and from certain point of view, you´re right. But there´s also the other fact, why should Thieves have GCD and other classes don´t? That sound weird to me, actually.

Let´s just take away the Stealth completely, rename Thief to Bandit and have backstabs without the need for stealth. People won´t argue because we won´t be mysteriously invisible anymore (which is non-sense befor the whole combo-thing) and they will see us just like other classes (warriors, mesmers etc.). Nobody evidently cares about that we are visible the same way even now (because only an idiot would stealth before the Stealing usage).

Devildoc.6721:

It’s not even close, 1s would just prevent all the damage from happening at once but still allow you to spam the same skill successive times.

If you want this game to be the same as the other ones (SW:TOR, WoW etc.), why bother, just go and play them.
I play GW because I want class diversity and difference, that´s the biggest pro of this game, you know?

If the Backstab will get direct dmg nerf (like pistol whip), ppl will suddenly complain about some other ability (Shadow shot for example or any other which will become more viable). That doesn´t solve anything imho. It will be just like with the PW, autoattack will be more damaging ability suddenly….

Sabin.4590:

yet you see the 3 clones ( wish mesmer really had 4 clones) coming your way , you see warrior coming your way with bull , but you never see a thief coming your way with a 20k hit cause they are stealthed.
oh and btw a mesmer shatter build can’t deal 20k damage burst.

You made me laugh buddy

Thief is hardly stealthed when coming to perform this combo, because he would receive “revealed” debuff right after the Steal+C&D, and you know what that means? NO BACKSTAB, no big burst, no kill, only fatal mistake and inevitable death to the Thief. I hope that makes this issue quite clear, thanks

Yes, the Thief levelling is somewhat harder than with some other classes, but S/P and Signet of Malice is the way to go (even after nerf), it gives solid blindness spam and aoe cone damage, which heals pretty rapidly if getting hit (more mobs, more healing). This weapon set solved pretty much all of my previous leveling problems, I was stacking power/crit mainly (crit first for the initiative regen on crit trait).

DesertRose.2031:

STRanger.5120:

Jefzor.7145:

The CnD+Steal combo needs a fix. The backstab damage itself is fine imo.

Any suggestion how to fix it?

Give Steal a 1/4 cast time and don’t let it trigger Venom-type skills (cannot check if it already behaves so).
That way the time the target has to react to this combo goes up from virtually 0 to 0.5-0.75 seconds.

That would result in usage of Infiltrators signet instead of stealing and stealing usage just as a damaging gap closer.
Maybe it will be better if you actually do some research to the class before suggesting anything (not meant offensively guys).
Also if you give all those shadowsteps a casting time, it will kinda destroy the class I think Also as I said earlier, not only thieves are using this technique (skill + instant teleport to ensure hitting), so it would be kinda unfair, as I remember Anet stated that it is working as intended (not sure, but I think I´ve seen this statement somewhere).

Also there is problem with not-triggering venoms. This is still quite bugged (even signets trigger venoms if I remember correctly).
So I would like to see the class bugs fixed before any balance things are adressed (The same situation with Elementalist, where it is even much worse, but the class was greatly nerfed already…)

@Krathalos.3461:

Yes, I know. I didn´t meant that post to defend the Thiefs´ burst, but ppl should suggest something, instead just saying “it has to be fixed”, right?

Jefzor.7145:

The CnD+Steal combo needs a fix. The backstab damage itself is fine imo.

Any suggestion how to fix it?
Also, even other professions are using this type of mechanic (Lightning flash + Churning earth for example).

Try to hit with those skills without the “blink”, you´ll see that it is kinda impossible if your opponent is not a training dummy

Pistol whip didn´t needed nerf at all, the problem ppl were whining about was caused by quickness mechanic, not the skill itself…..

EasymodeX.4062:

Outdated?

Balanced circumstances?

I was combo’d for 33k damage when I had 3 orbs (e.g. I had 150 bonus toughness) within 0.3 seconds. By Thieves from different servers.

Ignoring facts?

Son, learn what your class is capable of then come back to the discussion.

Well, in that situation, I was killed by a staff Elementalist as he just looked at me, nerf them!!!!
/irony
Show proof or get lost, I can make things up too….

EasymodeX.4062:

Proof’s already in the thread. You’re sticking your head in the sand and/or are ignorant of your own class.

For the 4th and the last time, outdated/WvW screens/videos doesn´t count….
Class balance must be determined based on a balanced circumstances (equal quality gear, no orb bonuses etc…)

You´re kinda consistent about ignoring this fact, don´t you think? Just leave, you won´t be missed….

@sogeou.7845:

Don´t worry, I´m pretty much aware of that But thanks fo support

SKuDDer.1860:

Don’t worry, I will be making some videos tonight. From both the thief doing the damage, and the guardian taking it. To prove the point my build is not glass cannon or squishy, I will show you how I jump into zergs and push their line and have time to retreat.

This is the attitude I´m looking for.
For explanation to everyone arguing here, I´m not telling that Thief is Balanced or OP or UP, I just want ppl to deliver proofs if they are telling something.
And the solution to such situation, that´s entirely different case, cause any change to skills/mechanics affects much more than only one build, ppl should understand those too…

@EasymodeX.4062:

Screenshots are hardly a proof, especially WvW ones. Everybody can screenshot a combat log without actually showing the fight itself, you know?

swinsk.6410:

The only nerf acceptable to me is cnd right after a steal. What the point of traitors 2s stealth after steal if people use cnd before they steal then steal + mug then bs…

Also, this trait is/was bugged if I remember correctly (doesn´t turn off the autoattack, so it instantly revealed you after the steal usage.).

Ok, if you want to persuade Thief players, show an actual video-proof of someone doing that in sPvP/tPvP environment (not some outdated Jinzu´s burst build video please…)
I will believe it then

Edit: missing letter.

@SkuDDer:

I don´t think so, buddy :-) Not in equally geared situation (aka tPvP/sPvP) and against one, single Thief.
Maybe in those 4 seconds, if you have base HP pool and you try to facetank the guy attacking….. (and the Thief is very crit-lucky, too…)

bettadenu.5483:

Then so should everything else in the game.

There are some skills in the other professions arsenal that also use up charges but do not go away after you miss. They will stay active until you hit unlike Thieves’ venoms which are gone even if you hit a utility skill.

Guardians can use their virtue and never have to worry about missing, this is unbalanced and unfair. If you miss with your virtue well then screw you and better watch where you hit next time.

I think that this has something to do with the fact that signet is considered an “attack” (You know that bug that bothers mainly the elementalists – switch to air attunement —> automatically attack selected target/even selects nearest target if you have auto-targetting on). And if that wasn´t corrected, traps do this also (I personally don´t use them and I´m at work now, so can someone test this to confirm please?)

What about a Crossbow? I know it will a new weapon to the game, but I think that it fits much better for long range Thief than a loud rifle.
Or wrist-Xbows can be also an option (I would like that much more than the pistols for the Thief).

Coolmoos.8546:

I DO know… because you can see if they are 80 or not.. and the FOE I was killing had no arrow up next to his level. So Thank you for your constructive post.

Proof?
Nice orb buffs BTW

For the third time: THIS game is not (shouldn´t be) balanced around WvW, get used to it guys….
If you want another WoW, go play the actual one. Thank you very much.

EasymodeX.4062:

The highest I was hit for prior to the Signet change was 18.5k with Backstab.

30k+ damage combo that lands within 0.3 seconds at 900 range.

The important parts: “Prior to signet change” and that 30K+ made-up non-sense number (you cannot meant that seriously, right?).

I admit that backstabs I encountered is not the highest ones achievable, but still, nobody can hit you that hard in sPvP because of orb absence and easier to get awareness (fewer players).

Again, this game is not based on WvW if Anet wants it to be played competitively like an e-sport, therefore the balance doesn´t depends on some Orb-buffed glass cannon kills which are not viable in competition…

EasymodeX.4062:

If I create lvl 1 mesmer and go to WvW, I will be punished with these hits too, but not because backstab is OP, but because a low lvl char sux in WvW, just like that…)

I’m level 80 in full exotics, and backstab crits me for 15k (which is my health pool, fyi).

My main is lvl 80 too, don´t have full exotics, and the highest backstab I encountered was for 12K (that was pre-balance/nerf of Assasins signet). Taking my Class (Ele) and build (+0 toughness, +150 vitality), I dealt with it because I deserved it. Can you understand this?
Also, Backstab is very far from being an instant ability

Delolith.9645:

STRanger.5120:

Deal with it please and let the devs do their work, don´t make them read these useless whine posts, while they should be reading a constructive feedback on these forums…

Apparently if you consider Chapman’s post, they don’t need to read the forums to know that something is off. It is a known issue to them. But he did feel “obliged” to answer to this thread due to the attendance and level of concern. Whether someone posts a whine QQ thread I don’t see that is interfer with a devs work. I don’t like it either but to say that they are hindering them is a bit off.

Also consider that nerf =/= useless

And it is a welcome change as well /flamesuit on

Yes, I understand this and I agree. But contructive feedback is something which can bring devs to some new ideas about classes and improve gameplay. But this cannot occur if it gets lost in the tons of whine threads….

Never.6014:

I like you.

Thanks, I´m just trying to be objective, because those unsupported arguments and made-up numbers are making me doubt the quality of the community in this game, I left other MMO´s hoping that these ppl which constantly whine about something even before the game is bugfixed stay playing those…. I was wrong, unfortunately…

Shilian.5873:

now now…im not complaining about the thief doing instagib damage, i am complaining because thief is the only class in the game that can deliver such high damage using only 2 braincell, you keep defend your class i understand, but is so funny when u think the only issue is about bad players, when in fact the bad player is usually a THIEF…
you are all running on a FOTM class…the average skill level of the thief player is none but STILL u can kill people and seems like thief plyers are the only one who understand the game, do yourself a favor, and i am not trolling, I jumped myself on Spvp with no knowledge of thief class and it was literally facerolling players just banging my fingers on the keyboard. Stop QQ and face the truth…your class is broken, and without a broken class you are not so good, that’s what u fear.

I can assure you that I don´t even play Thief in the sPvP or tPvP, my main is an Elementalist, Thief is alt. But when I´m playing an Ele, I have no problem with avoiding this so called OP burst dmg, but of course, if I fail to avoid it (it happens ocassionally), I get downed and it´s my own fault (I´m running neither bunker build, because that just don´t fit to my idea of spellcaster, nor with the D/D weapon set. I use balanced attunedancing build.) because I didn´t have the situational awareness…
Please be aware that this game is not WoW, neither AOC, nor Warhammer: Online.
For every build, there should be a counter-build and that is what I hope Anet wants (was like that in GW1). This game is not about 1vs1, and any WvW encounter is hardly of any evidence of class balance. Deal with it please and let the devs do their work, don´t make them read these useless whine posts, while they should be reading a constructive feedback on these forums…

SKuDDer.1860:

Pyrial.2917:

Leave the burst, adjust the stealth mechanics associated with it.

Yeah well that’s the problem, I don’t think they can fix the rendering of players in WvWvW easily, so to counter they are going to have to adjust the skills. Technically speaking thieves are inadvertently exploiting a bug.

All classes with single-target channeling dps skills also inadvertently exploit a bug while tracking Thieves in stealth/using pets/illusions to do the same, so that needs adjusting too. And it unfortunately counts even for my own class (elementalist).
This only proofs that without fixes, balance cannot be done…

SKuDDer.1860:

the problem is you never see them coming to do the first attack, they could be 900 range away, then they use stealth, warp, steal cnd backstab, then finish you off assuming you are alive still.

And again, you don´t know what you´re talking about….
Thief doesn´t go Stealth, then shadowstep….
He shadowsteps (you see him and the dmg received from mug, then he finishes the C&D skill (and that´s the moment he goes stealthy) and then he must position for backstab = so you can dodge and simply avoid that/stunbreak if he uses poison/blink/lightning flash/ any other ability that gets you from melee range or just rotate like a mad and make yourself practically unhittable by the full backstab dmg…

Loco.4561:

I’m a full exotic bunker built Ele… my health pool at the time was 16.8k.

You´re just kidding, right?
My Ele has 16K health pool, and my build is far from tank/bunker (0/30/0/15/30)…

Also, I have 4 exotic pieces in my gear only….

I think that Thief burst is not so easy to land if your opponent doesn´t stand like a training dummy, try to hit turning/running target to the back (and count with the latency as well).
Little OT: one change came to my mind yesterday, much more like a weapon sets diversity for DD/condition builds.
For example: There will be two different stealth attacks for each mainhand weapon (f.e. Backstab – as we know it now/Cutthroat – Minor direct dmg and huge bleed stack) which will be selectable just like the major traits are. What do you think about this idea?

Runcore.5107:

Yes and no-smart players which dont think and dont predict go cry over forum for nerf of thief. Pls developers do a favor for me – after next thief nerf pls delete thief class because after more nerfing thief will be tottaly glass only with no damage and everybody kill him with one hand in nose. After thief is totally ruined these kids will go cry for nerf of other classes. They will say that necro is OP, warr is OP, mesmer is OP…etc. You really dont see what they want. They dont know play their class, some thief killed them on WvW and they now whimper on forum. How you cannot see it?

Exactly. I think that any balancing before bugfixing is very probably contraproductive in most cases (look at the Elementalists and their traits, RTL and other bugs). I cannot mention other classes, I play only Ele and Thief in this moment, but I doubt that Ele is the only one with bugs and mechanic problems. there are so many bugs, that their fixing change the class so much by itself. Any balancing before this can simply ruin the class for future…

Fellknight.4820:

I keep hearing glass cannon over and over lol you have stealth that defeats every con that comes with Glass Cannon.

Are you still talking about GW2? I thought that a class called “Rogue” has perma-stealth, vanish etc…
Thief is quite different in these and our stealth isn´t “Invulnerability” you know?
Smart player can hit you hard even if you are stealthed, because he thinks and predicts….

Shilian.5873:

But i do agree Thief don’t need a damage reduction, all other classes need a damage increase so that I, as a ranger, can deliver 8k damage with an instant attack too, i don’t mind about stealth since we have 1500 range, that’s a fair trade no?

Hehe, did you understand that ranged < melee dmg in this game? It definitely looks that way, I can´t deliver 8K dmg with my pistols or shortbow and its only for 900 range… And even with my backstab (if you´re still looking at the WvW screenshot, you just know nothing about the game – If I create lvl 1 mesmer and go to WvW, I will be punished with these hits too, but not because backstab is OP, but because a low lvl char sux in WvW, just like that…)

Never had any big issues with this one, but you can try Dancing dagger skill (dagger #4) for kiting the mobs and quite effective killing. I hope that helps ;-)

Crumbs.7643:

Either way, it still means that there should be enough initiative leftover to execute a couple more abilities, and put the Assassin’s Signet to full use.

I just can’t believe the arguments people like Scarlac are giving to interpret this change as a nerf.

You can have 8 initiative, maybe 9 (if one regens, the other two from the stealthing traitline), which is enough for 2-3 HSs, so no problem here

My friend told me about something similar he encountered on his mesmer torch skill
But I´m yet to experience that….

@DesertRose.2031:

I haven´t done any heavy testing, but if I remember correctly, the C&D cost is applied in the moment the skill hit/miss the target, so if you want to do steal/C&D combo, you should land steal in the middle of the C&D animation ideally, but that´s before the cost, so you will probably have full initiative at the moment, therefore kleptomaniac trait would be wasted…

Great work man, and even greater idea

@Kubetz: The renewal glyph is kinda unusable after the recent “bugfixes” and the Signet trait is still bugged as I read on the forums (didn´t tested it myself yet), the passive effect of signet of malice heals much less amount when on CD than when off CD, there are few topics about that. But there was more bugs than this, which were fixed. Ok, let´s call the trait change a bugfix.
I´m still irritated by some bugs which are bothering the class from the beta, like air attunement atacking (switch autotarget off is only half-a-solution and hardens the gameplay) – Also not only Air attunement does this, there are more skills with this bug, not even elementalist ones (thief traps for example do the same thing, signets did it too – not sure now, didn´t played my Thief a while). The above mentioned duration bugs (healing rain etc..), bugged traits like cantrip CD reduction, lingering elements (either clear description needed or it should work for ALL passive element effects), and much more.
The class would be much more playable and smooth without these bugs (didn´t mentioned RTL, because this is mentioned literally everywhere). I can´t wait to see those fixed

kubetz.3058:

I feel your pain though (as my main is an Elementalist), why Thieves receive bugfixes like this and we don´t get at least the duration fixes (Healing rain, Armor of Earth etc…)?
I really can´t figure this out, honestly….

To be completely honest we got some of our bugs sorted out and some abilities were buffed, so I can somehow accept the fact that they fixed thiefs a bit. They also nerfed some of the burst potential of thiefs last few patches, so if this trend will continue I’m fine with this.

To be honest, I don´t see any true bugfixes in the last patch notes, there are some buffs of course (downed mode, Cone of cold, Ring of earth), but the wider cone on Fire grab/Lightning touch is rather a tweak than a bugfix (fixing netcode/terrain collision so you won´t miss those skills if aimed properly, that would be a bugfix).
So Ele didn´t received any bugfixes, as I stated before. And for those who think that I´m only another Elementalist crybaby I have to say no, I´m just being objective, my alt is a Thief so I like the changes (even the burst “nerf”), but it seems kinda unfair to Ele class which has so many easy-to-fix bugs.

“Side note: the hell was ANet thinking buffing Shadow Refuge to automatically grant the 10 second stealth instead of needing to sit in it?”

@Papaj:
It´s not instant, he must remain inside the circle until it dissapears (4 seconds I think), then he can leave without getting unstealthed. It was mainly a bugfix for the skill, which wasn´t behaving as intended.
I feel your pain though (as my main is an Elementalist), why Thieves receive bugfixes like this and we don´t get at least the duration fixes (Healing rain, Armor of Earth etc…)?
I really can´t figure this out, honestly….

It looks like a bug to me, passive effect not counting with +healing from traits/equip?
But a devs confirmation is needed to know for sure.

Conncept.7638:

STRanger.5120:

Yes, Ranger is pretty hard opponent, but key-smashing player really cannot beat a decent Elementalist player.

You couldn’t have said anything more false if you had tried.

Which part you´re thinking of as false? “Ranger is pretty hard opponent” or “key-smashing player cannot beat a decent Elementalist player”?

@Baladir.2736:

It´s precisely 9.375 seconds with 30 points in arcane. The formula is kinda weird, but it works.

Buzzkill.9608:

Elementalists are multi-faceted spellcasters that channel elemental forces, making fire, air, earth, and water do their bidding. What they lack in physical toughness, they make up in versatility and the ability to inflict massive damage in a single attack.

This fits the Ele pre-BWE3.

But it was very OP, I agree that Anet nerfed our damage too much, but I can imagine how difficult is to balance this class. What I don´t understand however, is why there is still the same bugs (simple things like healing rain duration) still present even after so long, that doesn´t make sense, simply put…

Class can´t be adressed with balancing until it is bugfixed i believe…. Especially not a class like Elementalist (so the nerf was also kinda bad decision imho).

I think that Anet should implement one more question to character creating, between rase and class choice
“What difficulty will you chose?”
And the class selection should be based on the answer, if you know what I mean
This will guarantee much clearer forums imho

Nearo.4935:

You made them too weak

You made them too hard

blah blah blah

Really constructive post man….
If this is really true, I´m sorry for you. The only conclusion is that you didn´t understand Ele´s mechanics at all…
Yes, Ranger is pretty hard opponent, but key-smashing player really cannot beat a decent Elementalist player.

igneous.8153:

I gave up on my ele just 2 levels short of 78 and never wanted to return. I’ve since tried mesmer, necromancer, engineer and thief.

In essence, an engineer will net you the same flexibility in terms of defence, offence and support, but will be better at everything. It will hit harder and from longer range, be more difficult to kill, and easier to play.

My current main is a level 52 thief, and I am having an absolute blast. Though considering how possible it is that thief will be nerfed far beyond even already kitten eles due to rivers of tears from bads, I am looking at the possibility of leveling up an engineer now.

I understand I also leveled up my Thief first, but then returned to my Ele because it really gives some challenge and I love the idea of attunement swapping (even if there are so many bugs/glitches in this class). I´m looking forward to fix for those problems, and when that happens, Ele will be really good class and every other class will be easy mode for an Ele player (but maybe a little boring).
It´s everybody´s choice to play a harder class (due to complex mechanics and bugs + little weakness) or play an easy class. The most important is to have fun, right?