Guild Wars 2

The whole premise of gw is to play whatever class however you want. This thread just reinforces how thief is still only a melee range skirmisher. Reverting the cb nerf will be one step in the right direction because players want choices.

Oh god, here we go.

I hope players won’t throw down seige endlessly for ongoing buildsite invuln during battles.

I trust the invuln only applies to the seige alone and not to a small area around it?

Ashanor.5319:

What class are you again? Nevermind, just checked your post history. A Thief, really? A good thief is one of the strongest counters to this build, mesmer is the first for obvious reasons. I just find it so hilarious that the bad thieves come in here whining about this build. You are currently a top tier tPvP class and you are complaining about a class STILL on the bottom. You realize that right? It just makes you look silly.

So I’m bad and I look silly… because I’m a thief? Mmm, logic just died a bit right there.

I get the hyperbole though. It sucks to have a bottom tier class buffed and then have people complaining about it. You want to hang onto those buffs like they’re your own beloved children. You NEED them. Things can’t go back to how they were, they just can’t! You’re riding the denial train pretty hard, I get that.

First off, lets cast off assumptions and get facts straight:
1. I didn’t say I had trouble vs wars because generally, I don’t. Some are great though and I’m not against dying to a good player of any class.
2. I don’t play a heavy blind/stealth thief. You didn’t say that I did, but I’m assuming that you were assuming because that’s what most people assume when they hear ‘thief’. EDIT – oh, so you know I’m S/D. V. strong in spvp, yes, if you run a dodge build, which I don’t.
3. I’ve noticed that there are a SHlT TON of M/S + GS warriors running about. Just my observations, but if history is anything to go by, (D/D ele I’m looking at you..) generally players running a shlt ton of the same builds = nerf.
4. I implied that the war build is extremely strong right now for the following reasons: sustain, damage, cc, mobility. I don’t feel like wasting both our time going into it as that wasn’t my goal by posting here, suffice to say that this is my opinion and let’s move on.
5. All I wanted was to come on your forums and have a chuckle over some of your lovely hyperbole.

Ashanor.5319:

The popularity of M/Sh has nothing to do with it being overpowered and everything to do with not having many viable choices left. This has been explained in other threads, you can go read it there. What class are you again?

The lion’s share of the warriors I have seen in pvp/wvw are either GS, Hammer, S/S, longbow. Suddenly, there are all these M/S + GS wars running around. I mean the difference is like night and day… And you’re telling me that everyone played those weaponsets in combo before? Pfft.

I play a thief, if that matters to you. S/D + P/P or S/B.

LoBo.1724:

Skull Crack is telegraphed as hell.

So funny all the warriors trying to convince themselves that some of the changes weren’t over the top. I really feel for you guys – sucks to be on the bottom shelf for so long, but if the above is what you have duped yourself into believing then… lol?

I just hope anet doesn’t nerf you too hard. The zillions of M/S + GS warriors running around is proof enough it’s going to happen though. It makes me want to level my warrior and CC/DPS while regening all my health and running away whenever I like while I still can!

Probably Shadow Trap. It sounds good in theory though, however it literally NEVER works due to the terrible shadowstep pathing. It probably took the thief about a 10th of the distance it was supposed to before he snagged on a pebble, however luckily for the thief, this was out of your view.

Not many people run this at all in WvW as it operates slightly better in spvp.

dani.1956:

If you double dodge you still get some damage
You know you can spam unload at least 2 times right ?
that means 10k+ at least dmg ?

Troll.

I’m not even going to begin to explain why, when everyone already knows.

Some good suggestions. My thoughts:

If Body Shot was a blast finisher, P/D would be obsolete and condi P/P would be FAR EASIER to troll with. I’d love to let P/P use Shadow Arts traitline too, but it would just be too strong.

In another P/P thread, someone suggested Unload be AoE (Graves buckshot, MF’s bullet time). Well, if people are complaining about retaliation now…
…plus in my mind, P/P should be a single target, bursty weapon. Leave the zerging to SB.

At the moment P/P is good for:
Single target ranged DPS (better than SB at least)
Some ok support options with Black Powder and Headshot
Ok, that’s about it.

It’s problems are:
Too ini hungry
Caught between condi and power
Support OR damage, not enough ini for both
Damage is way too telegraphed
Cannot interact with Black Powder on #5
Far too reliant on your ability bar

So, with a single-target, no-stealth, power-based weaponset in mind, what does P/P need to work?

Sustain:
- Non-stackable, party-wide regen on Body Shot (5-10 seconds)
- On Body Shot, for the next 5 seconds, all attacks Lifesteal (scales with power)

Evade/escape:
- Teleport on bodyshot (teleports you 600 units behind your target, 600 range) This would also be great to chase as when a player is trying to leg it, suddenly there you are waiting in front of them.
- Dodge roll on Body Shot (Like Withdraw, but normal distance. Yes, yes, Body Shot needs work doesn’t it)

Damage:
- Drop vulnerability from Body Shot and give a 2 stacks of vuln to each hit from Unload (like ranger’s setup) so the longer you channel Unload, the more damage it does. Ie, you are rewarded for landing this long, loudly telegraphed attack.

Ini:
- As the primary source of damage, make Unload cost 4 ini down from 5, like Death Blossom
- Quicken the #1 auto-attack rate slightly to alleviate some (but not all) of the damage duties for Unload. (You shouldn’t be able to spam damage as well as spam support skills, especially from range).

So P/P might look something like….

1. Faster auto
2. Teleport behind target and fire a shot that grants regen
3. Unload 9 bullets on your target that grant a short lasting but powerful vulnerability
4. Unchanged Headshot
5. Unchanged Black Powder (still no interaction here, but it still works well within a group)

It sounds to me that you’re not aware of the revealed debuff. When you come out of stealth after attacking, you get ‘revealed’, which lasts 3 seconds on WvW (4 seconds pvp). During that time you cannot stealth.

If that’s not the problem, just…practice. CnD has a wind-up delay of about 0.5 of a second after you click the skill to when it hits.

Could also be lag.

Your enemies also may have aegis or dodge.

It sounds like you left the game before culling was fixed. If you’re a returning player, thieves have been nerfed quite hard in various ways. Bursting a target is much harder to accomplish, taking more than one pass nowadays.

First time I played Skyhammer? Hated the map to pieces. Maybe it was the comp I was up against, which at the time seemed like nothing but greatsword mesmers and engies who did nothing but chuck you off the edge at every opportunity. Since then, I don’t know if it’s been my improved awareness or what, but it’s been far more engaging. Funnest, most intense fights have been over the laser on that tiny platform. Literally on-the-edge combat.

Improvements? I have two things. There is a place on either side of the laser platform near the door you can get easily get ‘caught’ behind. I’m not talking about getting stuck in the geometry or anything, but where the bank of the sides meets the path to the door prevents fluid movement and is incredibly annoying.

Secondly the only way to access the overlooks on points A and C is to chance a run in front of the defenders of the point. Sure, you can blow a stability, but I would prefer more than one access point. I mean there just seem to be quite a few useless (ie not used) ledges around the area which could be opened up a bit, namely by making them easier to get up onto.

Scoobaniec.9561:

What if someone will have taunt and fear in same time?

They get ripped in half and out pops a raid boss.

1. Shadow steps fixed
2. Shadow steps fixed

Confusion on daze makes so much sense. Well, on every daze it would be way too strong, but it would give sword sneak attack a good way to support condi builds. I would like to see thief weaponsets with more condition options.

I really like some of these suggestions.

^^

And +1.
It would be a smart usability change.

Oh I can deal with it. I know how to fight and stay alive and I know how I can best contribute without being shown. Its the simple fact that if you led a zerg into another zerg as a thief, you would die during the first pass. Without a commander to follow, the train would shatter, each going their own way. Im allowed to flit on the fringe of battle because thats my job. But if everybody did that, ie, the commander just went down and there was chaos, it wouldn’t result in a win.

Ive followed a thief commander before during a seige and it was the perfect example. He couldnt lead the group into the AoE to initiate the fight because he knew he would die and the zerg would collapse. It was a stalemate. It might work with small group ops or during off peak times, but as soon as you switch the icon on you never know how many zerglings you will attract.

Many will dodge out of it. Yeah, its very slow and most of the time you won’t get the full duration off, just like 100 blades. You would be suprised though how many players will just walk backwards slowly after having their ability interrupted by the initial stun, walking through the full duration. Vs good players that wont work, true, but you can always steal during the PW channel to continue the full duration. Infiltrators signet also works. You may also use devourers venom or haste, but only if youre dead keen on it.

Have a try and weigh up the need anyway. I found PW worked best defensively when a melee class tried to open night up on me.

For S/P I would run 0/30/0/15/25.

I dropped the final 5 points from Trickery for a few reasons:
- Ranged daze on steal is good, but you have interrupts already from pistolwhip/headshot
- The 20% reduced steal cd only cuts out an extra 5 seconds or so. It’s not THAT much when it’s on such a low cd already
- The increased dodge is far more valuable
- You get to keep the minor trait +15% damage from full ini

You should run:
- Withdraw + vigor on heal as your only acobatics trait
- Shadowstep
- Signet of Agility for the crit, extra dodge and cleanse
In the final slot, run Refuge or Infiltrator’s Signet, though many other things would work. Signet of Shadows would be staple I guess if you don’t have Centaur runes (I would for perma swiftness on your 15 sec heal.)

Your survivability in S/P is going to come from dodges, inf strike+return, pistolwhip evade and the odd black powder. I personally wouldn’t run S/P without 15 in acrobatics for the extra dodge because ini can’t be spammed forever without running out.

Your condi clear is shadowstep, inf return and signet of agility.

You have a few playstyles available. Each comes in handy depending on your enemy.
- Inf strike in, spam auto, inf return and repeat. This is a low ini way to get maximum damage from your +15% in trickery while staying mobile and clear of condis
- Pistolwhip spam. It’s surprisingly sustainable depending on how many times you generate ini from your crits. Not good in AoE though, best vs melee opponents
- Spam autoattack for weakness and cripple. Best for chasing wounded targets.
Of course the ideal playstyle is a mix of all three. If a warrior is in your face, drop a blackpowder or hit PW. Pistolwhip + steal to jump on the runner. Headshot spam the lone thief snooping around in your Garrison to stop him from stealthing while your buddies pound on him.

I’ve done this build in spvp a bit with success. It’s quite versatile. I imagine it would translate to small scale pvp in wvw very well, though keep your SB handy for ZvsZ. The best thing about S/P is that no one is ready for pistolwhip anymore since no one runs it. This warrior kept trying to open on me again and again, wondering why he kept getting stunned and taking damage while not being able to hit me, looool.

Thief is not a good commander class. A thief survives in Z vs Z by floating on the outskirts of a battle. You CAN NOT lead a zerg train into another zerg train as a thief, no matter how you build. If you want to command, roll and Guardian, Warrior or Necro.

Shortbow poison field, dodgetrops and caltrops can all be laid from stealth without triggering reveal.

Caltrops can be precast into steal in addition to the others you mentioned.

Opening a fight with a dancing dagger can often be enough to blow a cleanse. Either that or get an easy cloak and dagger off without wasting steal.

Throw in a few autos after readying LS. This often blows a dodge or two.

Dodging right after LS cuts out the animation while allowing the damage.

Centaur runes on a withdraw build lets you free up a utility slot. Vigor on heal is yummy.

Who cares about your damage as long as you’re looking good.

Amirite?

sorrow.2364:

It’s just that Thief went to faceroll&win to a profession which needs skill to be played effectively.

That’s why people are whining. They want to keep facerolling.

Ah, here’s sorrow and his 2 cents. Was wondering why on earth you’d chosen to pass up the temptation to post in another juicy thief bashing thread – but, lo and behold, here you are!

Clearly this topic needed it’s own thread…

I’ve actually got quite a few precursors. I’m surprised no one else has..?

Precursors are the green ones, right?

Caffynated.5713:

Thief underwater is just as bad as perma stealth on land.

Evade
Evade
Evade
Evade
Evade
Evade
Evade
Evade
Evade

Mmm. Someone missed the patch notes.

Ive tried runes of balthazar on withdraw. Its hard to land the fire proc. Anyone who has tried centaur runes will know what I mean but the effect isnt triggered when you hit the ability but when the heal takes effect, ie at the end of the roll. This means you need to actively roll into enemies for it to work. HIS will be easier, but its half as frequent. This is why I abandoned the runeset as being inefficient. Glad to see others are thinking outside the box though.

I tried it with a sb/sb condi build with geomancy sigils back when it wasnt hard to put out consistant weakness. The damage was actually frightening. One thing I loved was caltrop+stealing to a ranger and using their heal pool. You clustered at your feet onto him while healing for 1k+ each time. Ah the memories. That build is unviable now due to the weakness change.

Some thoughts occur with your build: when bleed duration is so low its difficult to apply enough pressure. You’re trading this for other condis but poison wont help an awful lot as the extra damage is nice but its more for the cover/anti heal and the fire will proc only every 30 secs, torment 45 secs. Will your bleeds be enough in the meantime to make them worry? Also i think any p/d build not heavily investing in stealth is shooting itself in the foot. Compare what youre missing both offensively and defensively Im sure you will come to the same conclusion.

People are probably running more condi cleanse in the aftermath of the necro changes. Im noticing that they are far more prevalent (necros+condis that is.) Not a good time to run p/d thief imo.

^^

shortbow/PP?

Deniara Devious.3948:

Two conditions got buffed in the last patch: namely weakness and blind.

Thanks for elaborating, though I disagree.

I would argue that those two effects on the shortbow getting buffed, don’t result in an overall improvement to the weapon. For starters, the blind on #5 simply isn’t actively used – not defensively or offensively. You don’t want to waste 6 ini getting into melee range with a ranged weapon, and when escaping, you want to shadowstep away from your enemy, gaining ground, not across him, losing ground. Further to this, often the blind only seems to trigger on the end point of your #5, at least in my experience.

As for weakness, the nerf to Lotus Poison leaves clusterbomb is the only means to consistently generate it. This by itself is a nerf as you now need to waste more ini to stack weakness whereas previously a choking gas+AA did a great job of this with the bouncing arrows. Combine this with the range nerf on cluster and the fact that blast fields cannot overlap in group combat and this is even harder to do reliably. Previously, simply laying choking gas would generate good amounts of weakness, despite any other fields in the way. When the field timed out you simply dropped another one. Now with the lotus poison nerf, all enemies will get a 20 second immunity to your weakness.

Finally, your comment about the clusterbomb range nerf: putting weaponset range comparisons aside, as we can only guess about this, frankly I don’t care what kind of obsessive-compulsive person nerfs a weapon set so all the abilities have exactly the same range. At the end of the day, Anet made a rarely mained weaponset even less viable. This was after the nerf to z-axis shadowsteps, which severely reduced the viability of the secondary mobility shortbow also. If a weaponset is balanced in how it performs practically in game, you don’t fiddle around with the aesthetics of its range.

Albin.5320:

Thanks for the answers!

Sarrow.2785:

He means he’s a thief but will be duoing with a warrior.

Id run shadow refuge to let you both sneak up on targets. Dagger/pistol best unfortunately as you can both use your #5 blind field defensively.

Why do you say “unfortunately”?

Dagger/pistol is the most popular weaponset and therefore boring. I personally dont like it is all. Its very good though.

He means he’s a thief but will be duoing with a warrior.

Id run shadow refuge to let you both sneak up on targets. Dagger/pistol best unfortunately as you can both use your #5 blind field defensively.

Mmm. Quick pockets is already one of, if not the best ini regen thief has. Compare to ini on heal (4 every 15 secs), ini on steal (3 every 21 secs), ini on stealth (2 every 4 or 5 secs), the 2 ini every 10 secs passive trait – 3 ini every 9 secs is a good deal.

I agree that hard to Catch is never going to appeal to anyone who cares a whit about strategic play, since there’s no strategy involved. Like Last Refuge, this trait can be often be a hindrance. Cleanse on dodge is a great suggestion. Instead of having dodge-cleanse work on 75%+ endurance though, maybe having some kind of 10 second CD would be more appropriate. Reason being, it would promote hoarding endurance, which goes against the grain of Acrobatics.

For another alternative to Hard to Catch that retains some of it’s original intention: perhaps an increased range to all shadow steps? That would effect SB#5, Shadowstep, S/P#2, D/P#3, and the signet I can’t remember the name of. Steal would be exempt since, although it’s shadowsteppish, it’s kind of it’s own thing and boosted by many other traits already.

DanH.5879:

d/p users don’t care much about last refuge…
x/d users do mind….
maybe i should join the d/p bandwagon too, just for some lolz

Agreed that it’s certainly not as much of an issue, however in my experience any stealth build is vulnerable to Last Refuge. P/D however has provided my most unpleasant and frequent experiences with this unavoidable minor trait.

Craig.2403:

Very good and detailed. I would also like to add the blind bug fix (auto attack without hitting anything no longer clears blind) that was a HUGE buff to D/P and the blind on stealth trait that many D/D thieves use. It is also a slight buff to the S/P but not enough to bring it back to prevalence imo.

Wow. This is huge. I don’t know how I missed this change. This will boost D/P the most due to blind on stealth, black powder and shadowshot. D/D and S/D stealth builds are still affected, but this will certainly make the most common builds even more frequent. You know, I’ve been playing S/D for consecutive months now and I didn’t realise until yesterday that the sword stealth attack dazed and blinded on hit, making a S/D stealth blind/daze build particularly strong also.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Unlike most people on these forums I can see the logic behind the cluster bomb range nerf,

Would you mind elaborating on that?

I agree that SB could use some changes. Suprise shot has always been great in shortbows role as a support/secondary weaponset but vulnerability would help set up burst. My feeling is shortbow needs some better condi damage. Cover condis are all well and good, but without geomancy swap sigils, it doesnt out anything out worth cleansing.

Travlane.5948:

very close but p/d is a lil higher. its a VERY good build.

You know, I’d love to get more observations on weaponsets, ie from tpvp or other servers. I like P/D too but I jusy dont see many about. It’s tempting to give it another go after this update. But Last Refuge! OMG…

Overall thoughts:
It justifies what others have already stated: D/P and D/D still rule supreme and while this is so, the lesser used weaponsets will continue to lie dormant. Unfortunately for pure Shortbow builds, the nerfs to this rarely mained weaponset have unarguably made them even weaker and therefore they will become even rarer. Thankfully, small improvements to P/D and S/P builds will hopefully keep things interesting and diversify the thief population somewhat.

However, for the niche thieves out there, condi Dagger/Dagger is definitely worth another shot. Also, with the improved weakness on Sword and numerous improved regen traits, I’m also looking at the possibility one or two tanky Sword/x sustain builds.

Overall, although there are still several traits that I guarantee will never see any play, thief traits as a whole have generally improved and have even opened up some new build options. But if anet is really interested in build diversity, the next balance patch needs to balance weaponsets. Thanks, anet, for the effort. Keep it up!

Pistol/Dagger 2%
Buffs:
- Scorpion Wire: Decreased the aftercast by .2 seconds. Reduced the cooldown to 20 seconds. (Good for the lack of P/D chase and for pulling enemies into caltrops)
- Steal: Reduced the recharge to 35 seconds. (Good, allows P/D to close more often for a stealth.)
- Skale Venom: Replaced weakness with torment. (Creates some cover condis. Nothing to shout about. I wouldn’t take this on my P/D thief.)
- Dancing Dagger: Reduced the initiative cost to 3. (Improved P/D lack of chase and kinder on ini-problems in certain builds)
- Pain Response: Reduced the cooldown from 45 seconds to 30 seconds. (A small buff for some P/D builds.)
- Shadow Protector: This trait has been changed to apply 10 seconds of regeneration when the players stealth them. This effect will not occur if the ally already has regeneration on them. (An interesting option for some P/D builds)
- Sleight of Hand: In addition to dazing the player’s target, this trait now reduces the recharge of Steal by an additional 20%. (An interesting option for a Mug/sustain build. Traiting adds condi damage. More ranged stealths with cloak and dagger.)
- Ricochet: The chance to bounce for this trait has been increased from 25% to 50%. (A small buff for a trait no one will take. I know I wouldn’t.)

Nerfs:
- Last Refuge: Reduced the cooldown of this trait from 90 seconds to 60 seconds. (A big nerf to P/D. Thief rage 33% more often!)
Overall: A series of small buffs with an increased number of options to play around with. More players may be interested to main P/D. Torment probably won’t see much play at all beyond a hardcore venomshare build.

Pistol/Pistol <1%
Buffs:
- Body Shot: Reduced the aftercast by .4 seconds. Decreased the vulnerability duration to 3 seconds. Increased to 10 stacks for vulnerability. (A fairly useless buff for a useless waste of ini.)
- Pain Response: Reduced the cooldown from 45 seconds to 30 seconds. (May be useful for more condi cleanse.)
- Steal: Reduced the recharge to 35 seconds. (More steals = more ini gained)
- Furious Retaliation: This trait now grants 10 seconds of fury when striking a target whose health is below 50%. This effect can only occur once every 30 seconds.
- Sundering Strikes: Vulnerability caused by this trait has been increased from 5 seconds to 10 seconds. (A small buff, though I still wouldn’t trait it)
- Ricochet: The chance to bounce for this trait has been increased from 25% to 50%. (Better for P/P than P/D, but there are still much better options to take.)

Nerfs:
None!
Overall: An array for very minor buffs. P/P is still broken and everyone knows it. It won’t see more play as a main weaponset, but due to the SB nerfs, it may see increased play as a secondary weaponset for burst thieves.

Sword/Pistol <1%
- Pistol Whip: Decreased the time between the stun and the sword flurry. (A step in the right direction, but not a huge game changer. It may entice some to dust off this weaponset, but not many will linger.)
- Steal: Reduced the recharge to 35 seconds. (A bigger buff than for D/x and even S/D, due to the usefulness of steal halfway through a Pistol Whip and the dire need for ini return)
- Long Reach: This trait now increases the range of Steal to 1500 (up from 1200). (Awesome potential for chase and cherry-pick)
- Sleight of Hand: In addition to dazing the player’s target, this trait now reduces the recharge of Steal by an additional 20%. (Going this far into Trickery is almost a must for S/P due to the +15% full ini damage. This trait will almost certainly see play here, even though it will be the only daze available.)
- Furious Retaliation: This trait now grants 10 seconds of fury when striking a target whose health is below 50%. This effect can only occur once every 30 seconds. (Core trait)
- Weakness: Changed from 50% fumble on regular attacks to 50% fumble on all attacks. Now only stacks up to 5 times (still stacks duration). (Strong buff for S/P)

Nerfs:
- Shadow Return (Infiltrator Strike Toggle): This skill is no longer a stun breaker. (A small nerf for S/P imo.)
Overall: The changes to steal will almost certainly convert a few thieves to S/P and that’s a good thing. This weaponset won’t see a return to greatness though due to Pistolwhip damage and the Quickness change.

Sword/Dagger 15%
Buffs:
- Steal: Reduced the recharge to 35 seconds. (A bigger buff than for D/x because ini-hungry S/x is more likely to trait into Trickery)
- Long Reach: This trait now increases the range of Steal to 1500 (up from 1200). (Awesome potential for chase and cherry-pick)
- Sleight of Hand: In addition to dazing the player’s target, this trait now reduces the recharge of Steal by an additional 20%. (Synergises well with daze build and new steal CD. Will likely see play.)
- Furious Retaliation: This trait now grants 10 seconds of fury when striking a target whose health is below 50%. This effect can only occur once every 30 seconds. (Core trait)
- Dancing Dagger: Reduced the initiative cost to 3. (Good, this skill will see occasional use now)
- Weakness: Changed from 50% fumble on regular attacks to 50% fumble on all attacks. Now only stacks up to 5 times (still stacks duration). (Strong buff for S/x)
Nerfs:
- Larcenous Strike: Increased the initiative cost to 2. (A big blow to evade builds, but not too bad for stealth builds)
- Shadow Return (Infiltrator Strike Toggle): This skill is no longer a stun breaker. (Again, a bigger problem for ini-heavy evade builds. Not too bad for stealth builds.)
- Last Refuge: Reduced the cooldown of this trait from 90 seconds to 60 seconds. (the ability 99% of thieves love to hate!)
Overall: With the weakness change and new possibilities with steal builds, S/D has the best buffs out of all weaponsets imo, however this is counterbalanced by two very hefty nerfs, especially to the evade variant. Overall, S/D popularity probably will remain static or perhaps increase slightly, though within the S/D weaponset, new builds are certainly viable.

Shortbow 2%
Buffs:
- Furious Retaliation: This trait now grants 10 seconds of fury when striking a target whose health is below 50%. This effect can only occur once every 30 seconds. (Core trait)
- Panic Strike: Reduced the cooldown from 60 seconds to 30 seconds (Unlikely to be traited on SB, however could be useful for short-range clusterbombs – clutching at straws here!)
- Pain Response: Reduced the cooldown from 45 seconds to 30 seconds. (Useful buff, since SB has few ways to cleanse condis.)
- Last Refuge: Reduced the cooldown of this trait from 90 seconds to 60 seconds. (Useful buff for a non-stealth SB build, though no-one will likely trait 5 points into Shadow Arts for it alone.)

Nerfs:
- Cluster Bomb: Decreased the range set from 1200 to 900. (Significant nerf for many reasons. This one really hurt SB.)
- Lotus Poison: Increased the weakness duration to 4 seconds, but it can only apply once every 20 seconds per target. (Can still stack weakness with cluster bombs, but with overlapping blast fields and nerfed range it’s another big nerf in my book)
Overall: The buffs are very small and the two nerfs are big ones. I strongly believe we will see those few weakness generating, cluster bombing SB users dwindle away even further. With Shadow Trap, increased Steal range and new steal cooldowns for mobility now, SB will likely dwindle as a secondary weapon also. A big fail here for thief diversity. I’ve gone SB/SB before and I know how fun it can be.

I exclusively play WvW and spvp as a thief and have done since launch. The below list attempts to roughly illustrate the popularity of main thief weaponsets as estimated via my own encounters during the last few months:

Dagger/Pistol 50%
Dagger/Dagger 30%
Sword/Dagger 15%
Shortbow 2%
Pistol/Dagger 2%
Pistol/Pistol 1%
Sword/Pistol 1%

Again, these are my own rough observations and only in those two game modes. Other players on other servers may see things differently or have friends/guildmates who main what I view as unpopular builds. I myself main S/D and have tried not to let my familiarity with this weaponset influence my judgement, however the above numbers are the general trend from my point of view.

What I’d like to do now is match each buff/nerf from the recent patch with a specific weaponset to see if some weaponsets may see more playtime in the future beyond curious tinkering. I will pass over traits that I feel users of that weaponset will probably ignore.

Dagger/Pistol 50%
Buffs:
- Steal: Reduced the recharge to 35 seconds. (Increased frequency of Mug, steal as engage/mobility and certain stolen items)
- Long Reach: This trait now increases the range of Steal to 1500 (up from 1200). (Awesome potential for chase and cherry-picking targets)
- Furious Retaliation: This trait now grants 10 seconds of fury when striking a target whose health is below 50%. This effect can only occur once every 30 seconds. (Core trait)
- Signets of Power: The 5 stacks of might that this trait grants have been increased to 10 seconds. (An improvement if traited)
- Panic Strike: Reduced the cooldown from 60 seconds to 30 seconds (An improvement if traited)
Nerfs:
- Lotus Poison: Increased the weakness duration to 4 seconds, but it can only apply once every 20 seconds per target. (Minor trait, not integral to D/P)
- Last Refuge: Reduced the cooldown of this trait from 90 seconds to 60 seconds. (the ability 99% of thieves love to hate!)
Overall: Moderate Buff. Thieves everywhere now have even more reasons to play the most hated build of the more hated class in all of WvW!

Dagger/Dagger 30%
Buffs:
- Steal: Reduced the recharge to 35 seconds. (Increased frequency of Mug, steal as engage/mobility and certain stolen items)
- Long Reach: This trait now increases the range of Steal to 1500 (up from 1200). (Awesome potential for chase and cherry-pick)
- Furious Retaliation: This trait now grants 10 seconds of fury when striking a target whose health is below 50%. This effect can only occur once every 30 seconds. (Core trait)
- Signets of Power: The 5 stacks of might that this trait grants have been increased to 10 seconds. (An improvement if traited)
- Panic Strike: Reduced the cooldown from 60 seconds to 30 seconds (An improvement if traited)
- Dancing Dagger: Reduced the initiative cost to 3. (Good, this skill will see occasional use now)
Nerfs:
- Lotus Poison: Increased the weakness duration to 4 seconds, but it can only apply once every 20 seconds per target. (Minor trait, not integral to D/D)
- Last Refuge: Reduced the cooldown of this trait from 90 seconds to 60 seconds. (the ability 99% of thieves love to hate..)
Overall: A slightly larger buff than D/P due to Dancing Dagger. Maybe we’ll see more D/D thieves if the Last Refuge ‘buff’ doesn’t put them off. It should also be noted that, while I didn’t include D/D condi changes, some may be tempted to experiment with these waters.

Go and try shadow trap…

Ya pls nerf. Remove the ‘r’ and decrease the font size.

I would be fine with 900 max range on weapon sets IF thieves had a decent in/out. Shadowstep return duration is too short to get much done. Steal only gives you a one-way ticket. Infiltrators strike is getting nerfed so that it underperforms once more and doesnt have the burst besides… youre not leaving us with many options.

Monoman.2068:

DanH.5879:

omg omg, the zerker thief is killing us !
but it’s not a problem if we also can 3-hit him (or 1 kill shot for 25k+ dmg)

this is not a severe lack of L2P here….no….never…

While I agree with you, it would take a horribad thief to be hit with a kill shot.

Why do people always say that if someone gets hit by so and so skill, they must be terribad? Like youve never been out of stamina, never been cc’d or out of stun breaks before? Not to mention killshot channels thru stealth. Maybe you were concentrating on a fight and didnt see 1500 units away behind you. Abilities like these get landed all the bloody time on all sorts of players. Id love to have killshot on my class.

Other thief builds/other classes are better at what P/D does: single target bleeds. It’s a troll build effective at killing new/bad players + it kills yaks.
Nothing more.

Stick to your engi – better conditions, better heals, better AoE, better single target damage.

Thief has stealth, but cloak and dagger is just so easy to deny. Since this is such an easily exploitable weakness, and vital shot is so bad by itself, it’s just not a viable setup for anything more than the above.

I like the idea of giving the pistol auto 3 attacks, similar to dagger or sword: vulnerability, bleed, poison – or some such.

Needs an escape, but your #2 is op as hell. Give us some kind of leap/roll blast finisher, burning nearby foes.

A ‘shotgun-like’ #3 should have 3-5 bleeds for condi builds, however we can’t have unload as well. Content yourself with the #1 sneak attack.

This gives power dmg, bleeds, poison and burn.

I’d also like the shortbow to be viable for condition builds. It’s got the AoE poison/weakness going for it – that’s about it. To make it work in PvP you have to get weapon swap bleed sigils, such as Geomancy. You can stack a good bunch of condis, like:
bleeds
poison
cripple
weakness
But there’s no great damage to speak of. I think cluster bomb should grant burning + bleeds. Detonating should grant 6 bleeds, not 3 (when all three clusters land perfectly) and detonating over a larger area would spread the burning around.

I just think it’s odd that the devs stated that thieves would be getting their mobility buffed as compensation for some nerfs, and the first thing they do is nerf Infiltrator’s Strike and Infiltrator’s Arrow, our two hands-down best mobility weapon skills. I understand that IS was a ‘bug fix’, but however you word it, the change nerfed mobility.

There was nothing wrong with IA ledge jumps – all classes with shadowstep/flash skills could do it. Sometimes now you can’t even shadowstep in really easy to reach places – places that you could run too almost as quick. Again, I understand shadowstepping through walls shouldn’t occur, but this…….. really frustrating to relearn all the spots, which were second nature. Over-nerfed for sure.

Yep. With five stacks you get 250 vitality until you die. Every zerg will buff up on camps before they engage on the field. Its completely ridiculous. I dunno what they were thinking tbh.

Thanks to the SoR ranger in TC borderlands just now for the great fight. With the way things are at the moment it’s tough to get some combat in where you don’t insta-die to large numbers.

Most of the isolated SoR players I’ve come across only really want to get to the zerg, even if it means camping out in North Camp with seige and the sound of crickets. Every server has it’s zerglings I guess who aren’t too confident in small combat – I’m sure we do too. Or maybe they’re geared and traited for zerg combat, I dunno but it’s not really needed for this matchup.

Anyway, good to see some players actually keen to fight.

Oh, its good on NPC camps…

The reason DS is underwhelming:
1: It doesnt have much of an impact. Even when you shadowstep into the middle of an enemy zerg sometimes it feels like the daggers hardly hit anything.

2. It relies on other skills to be good. Your at risk of damaging yourself, spinning around like a tool. If it werent for shadowstep or signet of malice, DS would be more detrimental to a thief. One root is all it takes.

3. You dont hit things you should. Your spinning right near a bunch of guys and sometimes it feels like your just waiting to do damage.

4. Its easy to counter. Root the thief and melee him. When ranged, switch targets. DS is so ignorable its ridiculous. Yes, its great at killing bad rangers who would die easily without DS anyway..

So, its easily counterable, has inconsistent damage, doesnt work well as a reflect to the players you need it against, it makes you look like a tool and as an elite, isnt effective at all by itself. At least it gives stability, right? Wait, here comes a S/D thief..

Not my favourite ulti.