Guild Wars 2

Zatoichi.1049:

Shadelang.3012:

Hmm as someone hoping to invest in BM after this the protection to pet of natures ward is pretty nice. Ill be honest the weakness aoe from the ranger should work fine on MOST of the classes we actually have to be afraid of. Since there really isn’t anything besides other rangers we should have to worry about sniping us (inb4 rifle thief).

I don’t want to push for changes to early on before we actually get the trait. After all thats happened over the last month im worried theyl change it to be closer to what we desire and the internal cooldown will be increased or the durations will be massively reduced.

Id rather actually get my hands on and try this trait BEFORE we take it apart. Or else we run the risk of what we get in the end having less potential than what we already have. (OR it being massively overpowered becoming a mandatory trait for rangers and being used in literally every ranger build. Which would be obnoxious. Eles are already having to detox from there favorite traits. I don’t want that to happen to us.)

I see what your saying yes, but the general belief is that the trait that was shown during the live stream was not the final version, which is why we are discussing practical options for it. trying to provide balanced but good,GM worthy options for the devs just in case they are viewing.

and what we are afraid of depends on our current build, but in general we have to be afraid of mesmers and thieves for sure, in the case of Mesmer, they are ranged, and in the case of thief, they will cleanse it immediately through stealth with little investment.

if they leave it as is and let us “play test it” in game, people will cry nerf, ranger Op perma Protection weakness QQ, and then it will be nerfed into the ground harder than we could do prematurely.

Oh I fully understand that. And im fine with that for the most part. My primary concerns are the suggestions that largely seem to shift the priority of the effects themselves. In its current form its quite decent for BM focused players (I fully know and understand we are the minority. And I won’t claim that shifts(or preventing a shift) should be done for the sake of that minority).

Offering a trait that will help mitigate initial burst (requiring them to condi cleanse to continue the burst properly. Buying you a couple seconds to react) while defending the pet in a way that enables it to keep attacking its previous target while you deal with the new threat. That duel play is a massive part of a pet focused playstyle after all. I suppose from my perspective its worrying seeing some of the suggestions coming.

Yes they would be better for the ranger themselves. But it seems that many forget about sustaining the survivability of the pet itself. In a “typical” gank situation in the gvgs im in and in the tpvp matches I run that burst combat usually lasts anywhere from 6-7 seconds. Normally your going to want to try to break out/outlast it yourself without pulling your pet off of your primary target (a typical longbow build will usually have a designated target low enough on health that a buffed pet is a considerable threat.) Natures ward goes a long way towards that. Allowing you to fight temporarily independently of your pet for a short time period without worrying about it being gibbed by a random meteor shower.

Its a functionality thats fairly unique among our trait setup. And im worried about losing it for a more selfish version.

Hmm as someone hoping to invest in BM after this the protection to pet of natures ward is pretty nice. Ill be honest the weakness aoe from the ranger should work fine on MOST of the classes we actually have to be afraid of. Since there really isn’t anything besides other rangers we should have to worry about sniping us (inb4 rifle thief).

I don’t want to push for changes to early on before we actually get the trait. After all thats happened over the last month im worried theyl change it to be closer to what we desire and the internal cooldown will be increased or the durations will be massively reduced.

Id rather actually get my hands on and try this trait BEFORE we take it apart. Or else we run the risk of what we get in the end having less potential than what we already have. (OR it being massively overpowered becoming a mandatory trait for rangers and being used in literally every ranger build. Which would be obnoxious. Eles are already having to detox from there favorite traits. I don’t want that to happen to us.)

Hmm I kinda doubt it. In its current function it acts as a pretty decent counter to ranged attackers. Probably the only mob I believe that has such atm. It adds a decent amount to the overall mordrem swarms survivability.

It was mentioned partway through the stream early in…the warrior part I believe? I can’t remeber if it was at the end of the ranger part or it was mentioned early warrior part as people were flipping there kitten.

Im just glad read the wind arrow speed is baseline. Now I can actually combine the longbow with non longbow focused builds (que choir of angels). This ALSO being baseline is icing on the cake.

Druids are generally seen as protectors as of the world as a whole. Caring more about the total and understanding the way life works. There often seen as having similar temperaments to rangers. They often have little time to waste on the petty worries of the individual.

As far as there capability goes. Ive read hundreds of fantasy novels. And as far as I can tell the only thing every single one of the share is the ability to understand the natural world around them to a level that no non druid can. Though most seem to have a general desire to protect the natural world.

Ive read stories where they can do everything from shapeshift to controlling fungus to drain the nutrients directly out of an opponents body and use it to heal there own wounds in a VERY necromantic use of natural magic. (An example of this in gameplay is the chloromancer from rift)

As far as gameplay goes. Most druids ive seen fulfill one of 3 playstyles.

Support. Using HOT effects and defensive spells to lower overall damage dealt to a group while using EXTREMELY powerful short duration buffs to turn people into juggernauts.

Bruiser. Using layer after layer of self buffs stacking so many different effects on you than when you do hit something it simply dies… (Imagine someone having every single boon in the game for 20-30 seconds that you cant strip off + a massive damage bonus on there weapon hitting you for 90% of your health while moving faster than you taking less damage than you being resistant to CCs being immune to stuns/dazes and generally ripping you a new one) I think we can safely say if our druid is this one it won’t reach that extreme.

Caster. This druid often focuses on control and debuff skills. Youd see alot of these druids using fae fire to make you easier to hit and lower your armor, Causing the trees around you to become mobile and attack you, Charming insects to swarm at you biting at your eyes, creating fields of grass that are as sharp as blades slicing through your boots and into your feet(good luck if you trip), and summoning vines with poisoned thorns to hamper you…and then smashing you in the face with your staff when you DO reach them weakened, crippled, and dieing. (personally hoping for this one)

Hmm if were going to get rid of passive play that has an active role in combat…Lets get rid of 90% of sigils then o.O starting with air and fire.

Its the very DEFINITION of passive. A Chance based proc that you yourself have absolutely no control over other than (do I shoot or not shoot).

If its anything like the heal on f2 trait itl happen at the begging of the cast. So will work instantly for anything from a canine to a carrion devourer. Should be useful actually in peeling a thief off your back if your using a ranged pet with a longbow.

See that first animation and smash f2. as long as its next to you should work just fine.

In all seriousness I would be willing to bet that it wont be minion focused. Judging from the mesmer spec. What im hoping is that it will be minion COMPATIBLE. In example I hope that the class mechanic doesn’t kill every active minion when its used. Or that ALL of the decent traits bar you from using minions.

From what ive seen of the mesmers though the chronomancer caters to multiple mesmer fighting styles (clone/phantasm/shatter) which im very happy to see. Im hoping we get something similar. Where we don’t have to give up a preffered play style ENTIRELY (im 100% okay with it requiring a radically different appraoch though).

GS/DD DM New Trait SM minion mancer sounds like fun.

vince. As opposed to the effort required to play shoutbow? Or the effort it used to take most thieves to kill longbow rangers before they got buffed?

I can think of quite a few builds in the past that could be played at a very similar minimal skill level requirement for the reward they produced. Decap engis come to mind. THEORETICALLY high skill cap but the actual skill required was abysmally low.

Many of those builds were tactically nerfed. not strategically nuked.

Haha sadly im HAPPY there not working properly. If they actually became decent again wed get the turret treatment and be annihilated.

On a more serious note. I play my necro quite regularly as a DS/MM build (20606 cav/valk) and I have a decent amount of success. Nothing amazing obviously. But its still something atleast. But your right about the AI issues.

I just hope they don’t fix it until AFTER HOT distracts the witch hunt going on in the pvp forums atm.

coglin.1867:

maybe it took you a lot of time. I just generally pulled them out of turret range myself, or quickly took out any turrets I felt problematic.

They didn’t kill you? Well, if you say so. So what is your issue then? Your complaining that a bunker style build is not easy to kill? Isn’t that the point?

FYI, do not imply everyone in this thread is “lazy” then act offended when one of those posters in this thread suggest your an easy kill.

Personally, I liked the changes. In my opinion, no object in the game, anywhere, should be impervious to a players entire investment in a stat such as conation damage or precision.

I think even turret engineers would agree with you to that extent. I think whats desired is a way to obtain the previous level of effectiveness with more effort. I.E. having the ability to produce the same kind of pressure they used to yet requiring more micro management. ATM…it just isn’t possible to sustain ANY realistic pressure.

Speaking as a main ranger. I had to forcefully learn to swap pets whenever I stealth using hunters shot during GvGs. Or a thief will use my pet as a spring board to chase me when I drop off his target.

Also having to do the same when a thief is low health to prevent it from C&Ding.

Turning off my pet before engaging so I can force their movement skills to be focused on me (easier to predict and dodge) (guards LOVE to JI to my pets -.- the kittens).

Also as it was mentioned earlier. its a pretty big defensive mechanic for rangers that bother to use it.

Stealthing right as your pet is attacking. Causing them to retab to fight you only to target your pet and use there next skill on it. (that one happens entertainingly often to mesmers. Ty for mirrorblading/shattering/Phantasmal Beserkering my full health pet)

But aye. It IS designed to target players first. So unless your rapid tabbing and you just move past your target. There shouldn’t be any issue.

Oh? Mace/Focus or Mace/Shield with hammer offset symbol burn build will provide MORE than enough burning from the looks of it. Especially if you take the symbol traits in the honor line. Zeal Radiance honor build…holy crap.

Mister Fluffkin.7358:

naphack.9346:

Shadelang.3012:

Maybe if they had only changed the condition aspect. So that condition heavy classes would be able to reliably control/weaken them long enough to destroy them seeing as how condi classes were the only builds truly countered by turrets.

Are you mad?
Condi classes were the number one counter to turreteers.
You don’t need to destroy the turrets if you can just walk onto the point and watch the engineer keel over. Both trapper rangers and condi engis were capable of doing this without problems.
Necromancers had problems 1v1 against turreteers, but that wasn’t because turrets were too strong, honestly, it was because necromancers currently are in a borderline unplayable state.

The only builds, which had problems against turreteers were all those celestial builds and their lookalike, the meditation guardians. The power of those healy, spammy, tanky builds was too low to affect the turrets, which were immune to crits, while their condis were’t potent enough to burn through 27k health. Now any celestial build can just walk up to a turret, slap it once and watch it go down from the combination of a crit and a random condition proc.
Also thieves, but that was more due to turrets having instant reactions to shadow steps and stealth, while being immune to blinds… And thieves have problems going up against any engineer, making a single engineer build more vulnerable to thieves by allowing turrets to be affected by blind won’t fix the fundamental problem here.

So no. Unless you count celestial builds as condi classes, turreteers were never strong against any condi build. The whole build has one way to cleanse two conditions and one way to get rid of movement-impairing conditions.
A ranger can just play cat-and mouse on point, because the engineer can’t use overcharged shot without risking to be stuck in an entangle for an eternity. Of course, bad rangers open the fight with entangle, get blown out by an overcharged shot and then complain on the forums.
The few trapper rangers, I encountered when playing turreteer always melted me on point… I have never seen 27k health go down so fast. That was the few trappers, which despite literally every matchup featuring multiple shoutbows still dared to bring a trapper.

So trappers have been a hard counter because you liked to take a bath inside their traps? This isnt a hard counter, this is just no smart play by engi. Even turret engis dont have to stand on point at all costs, you know?

Also cele engi have been way better to kill turret engis than condi ones, because cele engi was able to kill rocket/rifle turret, instead to condi ones. If the turret engi was played by a descent player, chances for condi engi been very bad.
There simply wasnt a way to survive all that cc over long time(sentinal amulett), without killing at least rocket turret. Condi engis couldnt, or couldnt do it fast enough to even justify their attack.

If theres been a hard counter, i would say berserk staff ele.

Hahaha im glad someone atleast thought for a second that maybe I was talking about the turrets themselves and not the engi himself. Yes. When I made my post earlier I was refering to the inability of condi players eliminate turrets. Cele builds were quite able to kill turrets as they wished through the power aspect of there build. It was just a little bit slower than a pure power build such as a GS or hammer warrior. Meaning turrets were resistant to the cele meta (which is the entire reason why many people played it I might add. Some people hated the cele meta and turret engi was pretty much the only engi build that was resistant enough to the spread of damage types to be able to act through them)

As such I agree with the shift to allowing them to take condi damage. (I disagree with crit damage however it was an unnecessary nerf seeing as how they were ALREADY weak to power damage and immunity to crits would have let them still have the slightest chance of fighting even a bad cele ele. Now cele builds can roll there faces on the keyboard and win against them just as they accused turret engis of doing. oh happy day.)

Especially if eventually anet does decide to allow turrets to be affected by boons. This would enable us…HOPEFULLY, to eventually gain the resistance boon as a method of actively protecting them. Since everyone SAID they wanted turrets to require more active play (of course what they said and what they meant are too different things apparently. What started off as “Make them require more active play” turned into “It doesn’t have the right to exist!”)

I can agree with much of what you have said shaogin.

But is it realistic to assume even a top level engineer can successfully rescue a low health turret in there current state?

I have a friend who has used turrets since the first day of the game. It’s simply the build hes enjoyed the first. And I would say hes probably as close to an expert on the build as anyone whose played any build in this game CAN be.

Hes flat out stated to me that turrets don’t even last long enough for him to try to defend with a ranged cc effect such as rifle 4 or toolkit pull. They simply don’t live long enough for that cast time to go off.

Can we really say that the (pickup recharge) change you suggested would help?

Honestly as long as there vulnerable to crits I can’t see how thats possible. Conditions I can deal with but there current weakness to crits takes it to a whole nother level.

Maybe if they had only changed the condition aspect. So that condition heavy classes would be able to reliably control/weaken them long enough to destroy them seeing as how condi classes were the only builds truly countered by turrets.

But your right in that we can’t expect Anet to revert the changes. Frankly. I simply don’t have faith anymore that Anet can admit when they have gone to far. And I fully expect that they will leave turrets in a completely dead state for another two years.

With that in mind. I’d have to think that since (In my experience and my opinion and the opinion of my friends only) turrets simply CAN’T be retrieved or defended in time in a realistic view of gameplay. Reducing there base cooldown instead of there pickup cooldown is the better option.

With the way they are now. I CAN’T trust my combat decisions in a low chance that I might be able to salvage a key aspect of my build.

(especially when I can run a FAR less risky build like cele engi or shoutbow. Where im always going to get the effectiveness I desire out of my build.)

Id be willing to bet it would have been the celestial meta once again but thats being nerfed. Im assuming slick shoes/power rangers will be next. And once those are gone itl go back to the thieves.

Shoutbow is up there but its mostly hidden. The way it plays despite being nearly as brainless as people thought turret engi to be is much less flashy so people don’t notice it.

Exciton that may be true for you. But for the people that didn’t play because it was strong but because it was fun to lay? Those guys are screwed completely.

Sidizen if you quit pvp becuase of turret engineers I dare say you weren’t a very good pvper then.

DOZENS of people have showed how easy it is to kill turret engineers in recorded videos of actual gameplay. Using incredibly simple tactics that even a 5 year old could do. (one of the videos was actually of a 5 year old doing it -.-)

Even more have explained at the most basic level how HORRIBLE a build turret engis were.

If you had trouble with turret engineers. It wasn’t because that build was strong. It was because you were willfully ignorant.

Turk.5460:

Manuhell.2759:

Saying they should “play smart” to overcome the nerf is simply idiotic, if not downright trolling….

And how many times in those “nerf turret engy” posts have the zealous defenders of the turret build rambled off about “outplaying” “play smart” or “out rotate!”

There is no sympathy here.

The issue is turk that when the turret engies said that before it was actually good advice. Becuase they knew EXACTLY how to kill there own build. The community as a whole CHOSE not to listen. That was a decision they actively made. Hell even ArrDee of ALL PEOPLE says that this was the wrong way to go about it? Holy kittening kitten.

This is a perfect example of what happens when the community refuses to listen to common sense and detailed explanations. We made SEVERAL posts telling step by step how to kill a turret group while taking less than 10% of your health in damage.

You chose not to listen. And instead acted like villagers during the Salem Witch Trials. Listening to a few little girls tell you that turret engineers are the root of all evil.

Haha toxsa just remember. When all the ai builds are gone. The majority of players that run power builds will be on you next.

Just wait Quadox. Soon the hunt for the “evil ai” will turn to the professions themselves. And rangers find there leash range reduced to 300 range to “promote active play” and mesmers lose the ability to create clones (because causing an enemy to attack another target other than yourself is unfair).

GrandHaven it brings up a good point though. And its not the only turret that is worth LESS as a turret than it is as a disposable (although now All of them are as such).

The rifle turret is worth far more to static discharge builds than it could EVER be in ANY situation to an actual turret engineer. The build thats supposed to WANT to bring that utility.

If that isn’t evidence of a bad decision somewhere along the line I have no idea what is.

Maxi what you say would make sense if it (as I mentioned) wasn’t an ACCIDENTAL cleave. The same thing which is a big part of why celestial builds are meta. Youl notice both cele engi and cele ele both feature many aoe abilties. Infact those two have more aoe effects in there build than most CLASSES can reliably put out. (necro wellomancer being the only exception and its well known that necro is being held back by aspects of there core design)

And the phantasmal beserker I mentioned earlier was just an example theres no need to latch onto it. Hammer warriors clear them just as quickly. As do engis in grenade kit. Elementalists do it slightly slower in most of there builds but not by much. (A large portion of there damage is a combo of different effects)

So no. There NOT enough of a threat to be targeted before me. Because they die just by being near me. Meaning the only way for me to save them is to….be far away form them where I can’t benefit from having them? Making the cc aspects of there abilities pointless? Or the blind effect on flame turret not being useable because I have to fight OFF THE POINT where the turret is positioned to hit?

Surely your starting to see the issue. Its not just zerker builds that kill them that fast. Nearly EVERY non bunker build can kill them nearly as fast if not JUST as fast.

Also THUMPER turret is the TANKIEST turret we have. It’s entire purpose is to sit in the middle of enemy fire and soak it as it dishes out its effects. Thats the entire reason behind its existence. It can’t do that now. Which means its lost its reason to exist. Thumper turret in its current form simply shouldn’t be in the game. It does NOTHING compared to the cost of taking it in an actual fight on point. At no point should that one specific turret. The entire CORE of our on point control style. The one thing thats most iconic of the turret engineer’s effect on a node. Be killed within the first few moments of a fight.

Edit: to address your last line. Thats why so many TURRET ENGINEERS suggested that damage focused turrets should by nature be squishy and CC/Soak focused turrets should be tanky as a baseling yet deal NO damage.

Fully separating turrets into clear groups. And giving players fighting them clear targets (do I kill the thumper turret that wont deal any damage at all to me but will CC me regularly. or do I kill the turrets that are easy to kill and won’t have as much cc but do high damage to me if they hit.

Instead. they made it so that turrets can be effected by conditions and critical hits WITHOUT EVEN GIVING US THE OPPORTUNITY TO ATTEMPT TO BOON THEM.

It was a flat GUTTING of the build without even the illusion of compensation they usually provide.

Edit 2: corrected an exaggeration in the interest of honesty.

Id be find with instanced content if it wasn’t going to end up exactly the same way the current content does. Glitched/bugged whenever possible by a large portion of the groups you can get into. Or cheesed in any number of ways. Theres a part where strategy becomes cheese we crossed quite awhile ago in our dungeons.

If they can make the mobs/bosses difficult in unique ways and still manage to make them resistance to the most common tactics used today (as new bosses ALWAYS should be. Lets face it the second generation of bosses should NEVER have the same weaknesses as the first generation. Thats just boring gameplay) then im all for it.

But if they release dungeons and all we get is one more (stack here stack might dodge red hit 1) Snoozefest. Id be massively dissapointed.

MaXi thats just it. I agree with you as far as that goes. But they dont do ENOUGH on the field in order to be worth the placement requirements at this time.

I understand your opinion from your view point. But I think if you looked at the larger perspective and from the turret engineers perspective. Instead of this build being balanced now. It requires disproportionately MORE work than the result it provides is worth. In other words we have the exact opposite problem we had before. A disproportionately high reward.

BOTH need to be considered equal problems. Even turret engineers fealt the same. Which is why many suggested changes designed to force active decision making and planning on the turret engis parts beyond placement.

LIke removing all damage from thumper turrets. And the lowering the damage of the rocket turrets over charge. Giving turrets defined roles so that each turret HAD to be used in the right sequence at the right times or else they weren’t effective. Thumper would be an area CC weapon. Rocket turret would be a long ranged aoe weapon. Flame turret would be a cleave weapon. Rifle turret would be that sustained single target dps option as it is now.

Now we have an issue. You said we had to choose between dead turrets or strategically positioned turrets. Ive already said that thumper and flame turrets NEED to be close to the point….They HAVE to be or they litteraly do nothing at all.

As it is right now the thumper will die to accidental cleave in less than 5 seconds. Meaning the thumper turret simply doesn’t live long enough to do its job of controling the area around it. It can’t. Flame turret lasts even less time. ive seen one die ot a single phantasmal beserker cast….ONE SKILL CAST which is a cleaving line based aoe.

Now even there death effects which was a last ditch attempt to survive. Like a ranger using signet of stone or a guard popping that last virtue. Is safely ignored by any class with a blind. Or there popped so early in the fight they don’t matter.

It WAS disproportionate before in offering too much reward for too little play. Now its the EXACT same thing in the other direction. Offering too little reward for too much play.

It isn’t balanced.

The issue is maxi that in order to put enough pressure on for them to be useful they need to be fairly close. Or atleast the flame and thumper turret do. The flame turret was ALREADY squishy and now even the thumper turret dies in less than 4-5 seconds on point.

Also NOT counting that the fact that they can be hit by things like chill and weakness puts a pretty massive damper on there theoretical pressure (which as mentioned before isn’t even possible anymore). Not to mention that there death effect if youve traited for it can now be ignored by spamming blind fields.

This didn’t just nerf there survivability. This made them incredibly impractical to use. And made there theoretical maximum almost impossible to obtain. This didn’t increase the skill requirement at all. Because there theoretical cap isn’t even obtainable in a practical game. Far more so infact than any other build I can think of at this time.

Yeaaaah. Instead of balancing the build out it killed it.

Haha the thing is I have a feeling players are gonna be alot more dispersed except for major events in HOT. The action may be focused around strongholds. But I have a feeling you wont be actively fighting with more than 3 or 4 other players against a single mob (assuming vet/elite mobs) If its working the way they said it would people will have MORE than enough enemies to keep them busy without them all screaming and shoving there dps down static champ after static champ.

If your unsure. Wait a bit and watch some live streams/gw2 lets play videos after HOT releases. then decide.

(also. If the area is diverse as the mastery system suggests. I have a feeling youl find areas off the beaten trail with stuff just for players that like to have a …quieter…experience)

err. Honestly Id vastly prefer the protection on the pet. Would be pretty good for melee power builds. Regular weakness in the area and protection on the pet to help it survive further damage.

Heimskarl that would work if theyd been designed with that in mind. But they weren’t. Neither there health or armor are designed with crits and condis in mind. Hence why they die faster than ANY non sacrifice based pet in the game now.

It would shaft alot of people that use unyielding blast and vital persistence together though. Not sure if that would open up more than it closes mate.

Edit: Unless you just wanted to swap the two. But im not sure what consequences that could have as well.

naphack.9346:

Rozbuska.5263:

Stupid afk turret for daily noobs was destroyed good. Other smart uses of turret remain the same even better. Ppl still cry to my whisp about OP turrets priceless:-)

First test the blind part, then the part about builds remaining the same again…
Because if my theory is correct, you can now no longer pop your healing turret to interrupt a thief doing a smoke stomp.

Yep. This change hit ALOT more than people thought it would hahaha. I guess theres some small comfort in that when people start to realize how many small tricks simply wont work now.

“abomination” sure is easy for you to dismiss an entire playstyle huh? Rather than actually work it so that it’s more active lets just destroy it! typical.

Edit: Many people played turret engineer because they honestly enjoyed it. Just as many people play longbow ranger becuase they played archers in other games and honestly enjoy the playstyle. Same with MMancers. PU mesmers. Hambow Warriors, decap engis, and even cele builds. And many others.

Are there alot of people who played these buidls just becuase there FOTM? Sure. Same way alot of people did the same with certain thief/warrior builds.

You can want a build to change without annihilating an entire playstyle. Hell thats a big part of what the upcoming spec changes are supposed to be about. Shifting builds while maintaining and even opening up more playstyles.

I am honestly dissapointed that alot of people that truly enjoyed the playstyle are getting shafted just because it was one more in a long line of FOTM builds.

An interesting thing is that entire trait makes unholy martyr look alot more inviting. (I think thats its name atleast).

The ability to soak condis from your minions to regen life force. And hten have hte minion take it back and give it to an enemy is really interesting.

Edit: It feels like minions will in that way atleast provide sustain while were in DS and wihle were out of it. Vampiric traits out of ds and unholy martyr necromantic corruption combo in ds. ALSO Blood fiend is gonna be a really good kittening heal now with necromantic corruption thrown in. Heals AND transfers condis on auto attack? holy kitten.

You keep saying nobody. Acting like your speaking for everyone. Ill flat out say your not. I enjoy fighting in matches that are rigged against me. But unlike you im not gonna claim I speak for everyone and use that as a method of showing how right I am. Instead im gonna call you on that exaggeration right here.

First. It being ANET’s own game has no purpose here. There different games running on different models. With a different set of priorities.

Second. Again. That has nothing to do with this.

Third. It’s name attracted alot of attention not just because of its reputation but also because it was one of the ONLY games that gave a comparable experience. It came out much earlier in the MMO era. In my eyes it was “The game that was different from WoW” Because of how the game was focused. I was able to play them both without feeling like I was playing hte same game. I could play the entirety of the game and feel like it was it had almost NO similarities with other games.

Thats different now though. Because there is a much larger pool of mmos.

GW1 Being a superior pvp game also has no purpose here. For the simple fact that the game had vastly different priorities. GW1 was primarily a pvp game. Just as WoW at the time was Primarily a PvE game. Lets be honest here. It had to be better than its competition in order to survive. Because despite its incredible story. The WoW PvE experience was often more complete and immersive.

GW2 has a completely different set of priorities now. Its not being choked by the other games so it can actually progress the nature of pve (which it has been doing and I hope will continue to). It also has WvW a completely different game type. (which im glad is finally getting content) Which means that its no longer semi clinging to PvP to stay alive. Not only that. It has more responsibilities in more places. And it also means that its players arn’t all crammed into PvP and PvE. But instead are fairly spread out.

The old system needed the number of players it had to function. And more importantly it needed that density. It required having all of its players crammed into a few specific locations.

GW2 Instead spreads people out. Give people more room to grow and theyl naturally expand.

So NO. No I DON’T get your point. Because your point is flawed as it comes form a PvP only mentality. Without understanding of the larger picture (im talking in the dispersion of players throughout the game and its natural effects of player density in TPvP).

Edit: Removed some obnoxious capped words.

Honestly its freed my builds up quite a bit. I can actually take certain lines rather than being forced into one because of a weapon trait at the back of the line. Looking forward to the changes.

Bio Flame. You keep referring to GW1…over..and over. If it was a compelling argument you would have only needed to do it ONCE. Do you SERIOUSLY believe that if the old system would work in the current game they wouldn’t have done it? Do you honestly think that? Because if so then its definitely a case of you believing what you want to believe.

Someone somewhere has considered what your saying. They have sat down and LOOKED at whether or not the old system would be better than what they have now. Theyv compared the pros and cons. And came to the conclusion that it WOULDN’T have worked..

You have made your opinion on that clear. But there isn’t a need to keep pointing at the same thing over and over past the point that its relevant.

As for seperating the ques. I was primarily a solo quer. What I saw more than anything was a few builds that excelled in these unorganized matches destroying entire matches over and over. Often it only took one of them to annihilate a map. Like having a runaway warrior on spirit watch.

I HATED solo que. And would often que solo into the team ques. Wait 2 or 3 times as long for a match. And enjoy myself far more there.

Now however I can actually get the quality of a team que match (less BS builds that are difficult to counter without SOMEONE on your group working together. Often I see a group of 2 or 3 in my games on my team that annihilate anyone silly enough to run those.) With around the same que time as the old solo que offered. Hell its FASTER most of the time.

I MUCH prefer this than to the solo que aids builds of the past. Not to mention how kitten horrible the community in solo que was.

Justine.6351:

Razor.9872:

Keep in mid that having HS be a trap provides the opportunity to heal twice in a very short time period if you set up before the fight starts.

That fact I could appreciate if it became a ranged skill with arming time. I could live with it then.

If I go into a camp im gonna flip I precast my traps before going in and then hit lord to agro camp. They hit traps and shortly after I can toss them out again instead of waiting full recharge. So if I could have precast healing spring and the trap lasted on ground as long as recharge I could appreciate that.

Thats a very good point. Theoretically it becomes an insanely good heal if used properly. Would be useful in TPvP as well if you were fighting near a location. You could set up your heal ahead of time nad fight around it and just walk onto it the moment you need it.

Because its tied to there utilities and not there class mechanic. Meaning it requires more base investment.

TBH I use invigorating bond quite often and find it fairly useful. However I find its most useful in a zealots ranger build. Not a zerker ranger. ATM Zealot ranger has some issues (before you weren’t able to get enough defensive traits while still taking dps traits like read the wind and ALSO getting invigorating bond. ATM you end up 6xxx6 if you want to use longbow with it)

After this though with the velocity becoming baseline I may not take hte marksmanship line at all and go 00666 Zealot Longbow Ranger (atm zealot cant hold even a slight candle to zerker on the survivability scale because of hte trait investment needed to gain enough situational survivability to make use of that healing power. Post change however it WILL be possible. Making it a good set for general pvp activities and even PvE) with invigorating bond/bark skin/beastly warden. Turning my pet into a VERY useful health sponge against burst classes like theives and mesmers (all I have to do is time it right and BAM pet and I get healed pet peels for me and pet takes less damage through it making sure it survives the punishment) turning the pet f2s in very good oh kitten buttons.

Invigorating bond is gonna be a big deal with that (buffs to NM line in the setup im planning on will go a long way to making it useful) especially with baseline pet cooldown reductions just for taking hte BM tree.

All in all is things like this (I couldn’t care less about the old builds. Im looking forward to trying completely new playstyles) cause me to be really happy about the way there changing things.

In your eyes this ruins diversity in my eyes FIVE not one or two but FIVE builds I have wanted try for over a year I will FINALLY be able to do and have them compete on a reasonable level. It has been so long since ive been able to actually break out of the cookie cutter builds that this is incredible for me.

I like what there doing and I hope they keep this.

Are there less TOTAL choices? yes. But lets face it. From a competitive (not just pvp but wvw and pve as well) perspective over 90% of hte combinations simply wouldn’t ever be used. Since they didn’t even have the HINT of a chance of working against builds that had more synergy by there base nature.

A choice that doesn’t do anything isn’t a real choice.

I feel like you saw alot of that wrong o.O The protectionf or minions was on the final minor trait I believe. and it was in ADDITION to protection yourself which is useful regardless. Not a minion only thing.

Unholy martyr will go really well with the new necromantic corruption. Suck up condis and feed em back (provided they get fixed)

The new well trait is pretty sweet. And most wellomancers went for reduced cooldowns ANYWAY. not like itl require any more investment than it did before AND tehy get the free protection now.

The new dhuumfire is great.

Is it perfect? no. But then I didn’t expect it to be. I feel itl allow us to survive in our professed role more easily though.

Still needs more. IMO its not enough. But im waiting to see.

Yeah o.O and my burn guard will actually be able to maintain burning in a zerg train now. Looking forward to that.

Roe.3679:

^ so if you can still queue into team queue if it reverted, why do you even care if solo was brought back? It’s still an option for you in that scenario.

Because quite often the que times for a solo quer in team que could get horendous. And I can’t play in long sessions. More quick sporadic sessions throughout the day. But thats just a me thing.

In general for me the entire idea of going backwards to solo que repulses me. When I look at the current system and it seems like an actual step forward.

In essence. Its mostly a matter of my opinion (ill edit my previous post to stress that point) And the general feel of not wanting to go backwards to something we KNOW didn’t work.

Edit: The following is just a post based on my opinion. Though it is a subject I feel strongly on. Take note before you read that as this is not an unbiased post.
I feel like alot of people are complaining for the sake of complaining at this point. Evon came in and gave us his perspective and all we can do is tear it apart without even really attempting to see it from there perspective.

Well heres my two cents (which will be ignored).

The current system works. I don’t PvP as often as I used to but when I do I can almost always get in a game within five minutes. Before It would sometimes take me OVER TEN MINUTES. I can’t wait for that normally.

I generally end up in games that push me a good bit. But I end up winning.

Sometimes I end up in games where I get stomped. Why I got stomped doesn’t matter. It means I didn’t play as well as I could have. Regardless of whether the enemy team is grouped up or not you can STILL manage things well on the small scale if you play well.

And if they win because of communication so what. Thats a plus on their side for simply being better prepared than I was for queing alone. Props to them they did EXTRA in order to be BETTER.

As for premades never going against solo quers. Are we forgetting what plagued solo q for so long?

As of now ive had less 4v5s and 5v4s than I have had before.

And Im not running into the solo q only monster builds that were never that strong in team que but in a no communication environment annihilated people. THOSE builds were the bane of my existence and they alone managed to suck the kitten out of most of my old matches. Im sure everyone that played att remembers going into mid and hearing (oh they have a xx mesmer or hey they have an xx engi on our home) and thinking (well kitten we lost this one).

Now however I can just ask the generally two people that are in a party in my group to handle it. Quite often those two are in TS together and BAM they actually miraculously DO IT.

So a return on solo que? hell no. Ill just do what I did before and que into team que over and over again. Just like kitten near every other pvper I knew did. Because the fights there were BETTER and no one ran the solo que farming builds. Exactly like we have right now.

I always liked being able to take away the greatest strengths of an opponent. Taking away a bursters ability to crit. A spammers ability to cycle skills. A runners ability to reach you.

I feel like this game got very close to the idea of a true debilitation class. Where a skilled necromancer in nearly any build can roll poison,cripple,chill, and weakness when it needs to. I always liked that because it always felt infinitely more engaging to actively take away a persons key aspects rather than relying on some passive (block x attacks or take x less damage for x seconds) skills or bonuses to survive.

My only regret with the necromancer so far is that ANET took away several of the key things that this playstyle needs to survive for balance purposes. I understand WHY they did it. But id hoped theyd find a better way.

Im not the most experienced person on my engi but I can give you my experience.

Against people that don’t know the engi in and out it can be pretty easy to get kills. Even using the triple kit build which is considered a “skillful” build. Against most opponents though youl never really use it skillfully. Follow a few patterns that experience tells you will work without much inovation.

Against people that know engi in and out though it gets interesting. In most classes cases fighting something who knows exactly what you can do can put you at a pretty big disadvantage.

But engineer just has so many different combinations and tricks it can use at different times without really being set in rails as far as fighting goes that they can get around that disadvantage fairly easily.

So for MOST players your gonna find that it isnt that much different. Thatl give you a chance to learn the class in and out yourself. And when you run into the really good players itl pay off as you find yourself doing combos/chains youv never used up to that point.

Thats just my experience with it in game however.

Support/Control builds seem to synergise better with the offensive lane htan the defensive lane. In the defensive lane you really need something that can force a player off an npc or spike down a door breaker before its guard gets to you.

I wish id known that on my first playthrough haha.

Once I accepted that and took my necro to fight in hte offensive lane I found that it practically devoured most of the people/guard combos I fought due to being able to apply constant pressure without having to peel off. Worked out pretty well for me from then on.

As far as stronghold goes ive been doing rather well on a 20606 MMancer/DS build

The shear amount of debilitations you can pump out goes a long way to slowing down the enemies rampage through your npcs. And there also really good for slowing down hostile mobs.