Guild Wars 2

Houses

Capes

Kjeldoran.3849:

you can’t decide for this, if anet decided to give all for free it is all for free and you are always free to spend your money for in game “P2W” (which aren’t) items. This thread is no-sense and the whole discussion is only damaging this great game for those who approach to the game for the first time.

Lol fanboy alert.

He made a great comment: Get rid of the cash shop and just release paid expansions every X time that have all the content we want.

Basically how GW1 operated.

Puzzle Pirates had this painting feature, for some small amount of currency, you could make paintings of your character and if you paid a bit more you could get group paintings. Paintings would be permanently uploaded so you could link to them remotely and you could put them in your house and display them in your character profile which players would see if they clicked on you.

http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/Portrait see here for all the mechanics and stuff.

I still think that was an awesome feature and would love to see something similar in GW2.

Rifle for thief so we have a 1200 range weapon.

Torch in offhand would fit too IMO.

Zaxares.5419:

This thread is not about trying to change anyone’s minds though. It was just supposed to let ANet know that some of us have concerns about the Watchwork Pick, and what it might mean for future gem store tools. We want a response from ANet about it, and while there are already (several) threads about it in the BLTC forum, this one is here because the General Discussion forum gets more traffic from the devs (including some top level designers), and hopefully someone will get back to us.

This. I’m not going to let this thread die until a dev has answered some questions.

Questions like:

• Will there be any future gathering tools with bonuses or advantages on them and if so, is there a max to those?
• Don’t you agree that releasing a better pick just a few weeks after selling the molten pick is a decision that would give many people buyer’s remorse?
• Don’t you think that a convenience item that sells for 1/4th of the price of the full game should remain best-in-slot forever?

blackoil.2673:

Rangersix.1754:

Karizee.8076:

Would cost about 65g at today’s exchange rate. Up to you if you want to buy it, if you don’t care for it save your gold for something you like better

It’s still lazzy and people who in the community that deem it so have the right to make their opinion heard. I myself consider these Flameskins as lazzy, lets-make-a-quick-buck and uncreative armor.

This is not the road that I want Guild Wars 2 to take.

^^^ This.

I really hate when I find out that a “New armor skin” is just some old skin with a sparky effect on it.

Can’t they just get creative and make something new? Or maybe “based on”, but not plain copy-paste with some particles here and there.

Exactly.

I liked the toxic shoulders though. That’s the only gemstore wearable that I bought so far.

Aw I saw red and I thought we got a reply… Guess not.

Marketing isn’t accountable to the players, huh.

We already have a subscription fee: pay for better infinite gathering tools every 3 months.

Lord Kuru.3685:

At best, this is a bad business decision. Many people will now wait on buying tools, hoping that the next one will have an even better pay-to-win bonus.

Well I spent my last gems on this thing, and simply won’t be buying anymore gems in the future until we have some official statement that this vertical progression trend in the cash shop is over.

Wanze.8410:

Gaile Gray.6029:

Sorry for my misinformation earlier. I amended my post, as per the request of the forum team. Thanks.

It doesnt matter anyways in which forum we post as we got zip feedback on the issues that have been discussed in either one of them.
Even though you commented a couple of times here and in the account issues forum, your posts were only giving advice on where to post about this.
Dont get me wrong, I dont expect you to comment on these issues as I dont think it is your responsibility as Liason.
Personally I also have some reservations about the introduction of the watchwork pick but the bigger issue for me is the lack of communication on this (or any other related topic in the BLTC Forum) from you guys, which has blown this discussion way out of porportion across the board.

This.

I know what they’re coming from though, as I work in the game industry. What I frequently saw is that the marketing department comes up with some new ways to monetize the game. The designers raise red flags but are forced to implement it anyway (you see this a lot, conflict between marketing team vs design team, but from my personal experience, marketing always wins). Anyway, in my experience, marketing always feels as if they don’t need to account to anything. Even if the community is in uproar, they’ll stay silent. Instead, they’ll convince management that it are just some loud troublemakers on the forums. And they will ONLY let metrics govern their future decisions – so as long as it keeps making money, they’ll do it again and again.

Some of those marketing guys even told me straight in my face that it is good that some players quit over such things, as they are always non-paying users or users that pay little, and the game is better off without such players as they only cost bandwidth and CPU cycles. They only aim to please the people that drop 50+ bucks per month on the game. Anyway, that particular game died, partially due to its aggressive monetization and marketing interference in all the design decisions. The company collapsed a few months ago and was bought out by another party. Luckily I already saw that coming and quit that company 2 years ago.

Now this story comes from the F2P mobile gaming segment and GW2 fortunately operates in a different segment. But the story isn’t unique to F2P. There was another company I was involved with before that, and this was the result of their repeated marketing screw-ups:
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/07/monocles/

“There is a pretty overwhelming perception amongst EVE players that these changes are bad,” he added. “I think they’re brilliant, but our players don’t. We’re going to face an uphill struggle, and the reason many of us never talk about this publicly is that we’d be burned at the stake by the players.”

followed by
http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/10/05/ccp-games-ceo-issues-letter-of-apology-to-eve-online-players/

So yeah. Don’t hold your breath if you expect an ArenaNet response on this. Marketing likely wouldn’t allow it. The only thing you can do is well, not buy any more gems so you show up in their metrics, and loudly state on the forum WHY you’re no longer dropping money on this game. Maybe organize an in-game riot or two if you really want to accomplish anything.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Yes, I see your points, Lilith, and I respect there are many different ways of looking at things. I just don’t want RD to feel bad, or betrayed, or somehow feel negatively towards us, as a company. That really is all I’m hoping, because I <3 ArenaNet and I believe we do right by our players.

Gaile, I’m one of the people that requested a refund for my now obsolete mining pick and I must unfortunately say I have been VERY VERY unhappy with the way this issue has been handled so far, to the point that I will no longer buy anymore gems and am seriously reconsidering if I should continue to play this game.

When I purchased my first unlimited gathering tool, I purchased it because I thought I’d NEVER have to buy another pick, ever. I thought that the price of 10 euros was quite steep, but I went on and purchased it anyway as I imagined I’d get many years of use out of this item and maybe after 5 years or so, it’d pay back for itself. It was supposed to be an investment. Even then, I thought that 10 euros (1/4th of the price of the full game!) is quite expensive for such a simple convenience item.

Now, only a few months down the road, you chose to release another item that is a BETTER version of the one I had. Since I cannot equip both the old pick and the new simultaneously, the old pick is now gathering dust. I might as well throw it away, as it is occupying an inventory slot and I would never consider equipping it, as the new pick is plainly better.

The reason you lost so much goodwill is two-fold: I didn’t get the value for my money that I expected (I expected at least 5 years of use out of the previous pick), and I now fear that ArenaNet will start to continuously release better gemstore items that invalidate previously made purchases. Which sounds an awful lot like actually having to pay a subscription fee if you want to retain the best-in-slot gathering tools (or any other future items available in the cash shop!). I think it is obvious why I don’t want to see the game going that way.

I do not understand the smartphone analogy. Smartphones exist in the real world where you get real technological advances and companies have to release better products, else the competition will take all future customers. In a game, the developers control the whole economy and have a monopoly on releasing products. Planned obsolescence is not natural, nor is it desired.

By the way, I have a 7 year old dumb-phone. I don’t think paying 700 bucks for a phone that is obsolete after a year is worth the investment. Instead I spend lots of money on indestructible clothing of an amazing brand that gives lifelong warranty. Currently replacing my whole wardrobe with that stuff, so I never have to buy clothing again. I hate planned obsolescence with a passion. That’s why I was so excited with GW2. No gear threadmill… Oh wait, ascended

ILLSPAWN.5340:

I love the logic behind this post. I bought a 2013 Camaro and the 2014 Camaro is better so maybe I should ask for a refund because they sold me exactly what was stated, but never told me the 2014 would be better.

I love that logic, because you’d be free to trade your old 2013 Camaro to the dealer, or any other driver, and recuperate parts of the money.

If it was up to Anet, only you would ever be allowed to drive it, and you couldn’t sell it. So it’d be gathering dust in your garage, taking up space, forever.

Draknar.5748:

Shakkara.2641:

They ruined the tools I paid for previously, so I hate the new ones.

So then any time a new model of the car you drive comes out then you clearly must feel it ruins your current car. At least with your backwards logic anyway.

Example: my model year Audi did not have parking assist (back up beeps), literally the next year’s model has that standard. Should I now be able to take my car back to the dealership and demand a refund because now this new model ruined my old one? Big ole NOPE on that one. Car does what I bought it to do. It doesn’t matter if I tell them “well if I had known that the next year’s model would have parking assist I would have just waited to buy that one!! WAAAAAHH”

It’s the same exact situation here.

Not at all.

First, if you see a new, better car, you can still sell your old car and get (part of) the money back. Not the case with the obsolete picks.

Second, and that’s really the most important question, is planned obsolescence a desirable feature to have in the cash shop? I’d say, NO. I do my best to avoid this in the real world already (I do not purchase ANY good that rapidly loses value – I purchase a 30 year old car that I can sell for the same money, use a 7 year old phone, etc). The gem shop picks main advantage was that it offered the player peace of mind that he’d never have to buy new tools… but now he has to buy better tools in the gem store, only a few months.

zenleto.6179:

You just accuse a guy of lying and then you create that second paragraph. The old picks do continue to work. Has your whole case been based on misinformation?

They DO NOT WORK as I can no longer equip them. There is a better item occupying that slot.

Katz.5143:

I don’t like the precedent it sets. The item itself, I don’t care about one way or the other.

This. The pick all by itself isn’t that bad.

But it’s just a matter of time before they add better stuff. And again and again and again. Each a little bit better than the last.

Before long, the frog will have boiled to death. But the fanboys will keep on saying that the water is fine!

Symph.8407:

If you buy the new one with the intend of using it instead of the old one, obviously the old one won’t be used. – meaningless argument

Most meaningful argument, and the main reason why so many people are angry. Too bad you do not possess a superior Asuran intellect to understand this, bookah.

Symph.8407:

The point is, you don’t have to buy the new one, you don’t NEED it, because the one you already have still works.

It’s no longer best in slot. So it’s not the “last pickaxe I’ll ever buy”, as advertised.

Symph.8407:

It does EXACTLY what it has always done,

No, until now it has always gathered my ore. Now it’s sitting in the bank gathering dust. And I’m better off deleting it to free up an inventory slot.

Symph.8407:

and that’s the reason you bought it to begin with. Just because there’s something new (and possibly better) now, doesn’t mean the it won’t perform the function you bought for, or that it didn’t over the past few months.

The new and better one prevents me from using the old one. I cannot equip both at the same time. There is no reason or incentive to keep on using the old one, as the new one is statistically better in every aspect.

If the old pickaxe would yield resource A and the new one would yield resource B, or the sprockets come at the cost of the extra ore etc, then we wouldn’t have this problem.

It is a problem that we now have vertical progression in the gemshop. This should be killed in the bud, as they might repeat this again and again. Like I said before, soon we’ll be paying 3×12 euros every few months to keep our harvesting tools best-in-slot…

Symph.8407:

Your purchase will never be obsolete, it works as intended, the way it was described to work when you purchased it.
Why should you get a refund for this, just because something new and shiny has come out?

You keep on repeating this obvious falsehood but it is a lie. Repeating a lie doesn’t make it true.

The pick no longer works, as it can not be equipped and used anymore when you purchase the new pick. There is no reason to ever use the old one again if you have a new pick. It will simply take up storage space and you might as well delete it.

They should never ever have released a better pick. Especially not so soon after selling the previous version. 12 euros is already a lot of money for a best in slot gathering tool. If they keep repeating this behavior, you need to pay 12 euros every few months to replace it. And there may be others too. Where does it stop? Pay 3×12 euros every few months to replace your obsolete picks, axes and sickles?

Ashabhi.1365:

Char have a hard time with armor in general… I can only imagine the issues with capes.

Then make some Cultural back items. Capes for everyone except charr!

Raine.1394:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

So, does this all matter? Not really. Guild Wars 2 is doomed to fail due to simple, inevitable entropy. Eventually, at some future time, the game is going to shut down. Next week, next year, next decade. In the face of that inevitability, nothing matters.

I was right there with you right up to this. It does matter. It is the human condition that we oppose an inevitable entropy. Herein we are heroes.

salutes

Finally someone that understands.

I’m not going to play a game that renders all my efforts useless and keeps me on an endless treadmill to nowhere, especially not if this endless threadmill keeps milking me of my money. I play Guild Wars 2 because I thought it’d not have endless vertical progression and planned obsolescence. GW1 was king at this. And I’ll be up on the barricades to make sure that GW2 will eventually live up to its legacy and not stray from the path even as the developers stray away from what makes this franchise special and turn their back on every principle set forth in the manifesto.

And by the way, entropy isn’t that inevitable at all. One can only break the laws of nature when one understands that they’re not set in stone.

Azreell.1568:

2013 Q3 box sales and Gem store sales were down 25% according to many financial reports which all of you can easily look up.

That could explain a lot.

Hmm it does, but I still think that tricks like this only help short term, and alienate players in the long term.

I really hope they start working on features that players want and are very easy to monetize well, such as player houses. I’d really pay loads of money for premium house types, land size increases and furniture.

xXxOrcaxXx.9328:

Essence Snow.3194:

2) I’m not sure here as if by votes we might end up with flying mounts and if via Anet the community might feel ignored. Maybe a balance of the two?

I think votes would be the better way to go. However if something is about to set in stone, the whole GW2 community should be asked (For example: You will get a letter ingame which announces this vote). At the end ANet has to decide which suggestion should be implemented, so we don’t run into flying mounts anytime soon.

Or just do it the evon vs kiel way, where the vote is part of an event. I really felt that was the ONLY time when all players could influence the development of the game. It’s still my favorite event.

StinVec.3621:

As I mentioned in the previous thread:

To Moderators,
It has happened in the past that people who disagree with the stance of the topic creator on a subject will intentionally make comments specifically calling out employees and will attempt to derail the thread and make inflammatory comments for the sole purpose of getting the thread closed. This is quite evident in the previous thread to where it was closed instead of being moderated.

Instead of closing the thread, Moderators, please remove these individual posts (and infract where applicable) to allow the thread and the spirit of its discussion to continue.

As I mentioned, with a topic such as the one discussed in that now-closed thread, closing it will not end the discussion as many players have an interest in the outcome of this matter, thus many more threads are now springing up as a result of its closing.

Again, with this in mind, if a Moderator is scanning this thread, please judge and take action on individual posts based on their content and do not slam the doors on the entire thread due to these inappropriate few.

This, and beware of the trolls. I was jumped upon by a few people that kept asking the same question repeatedly, even though it was not related to anything I said but only aimed at derailing the tread and causing intense frustration.

Buttercup.5871:

Please don’t confuse opinion for fact (“sprockets are useless”) and please don’t think this gemstone strategy will stop at “just” sprockets. Hence the word “precedent”.

Exactly…

I expect a scythe that harvests pristine spores next…

XacTactX summarized it as follows:

These are the main reasons why people dislike the new pick:

1. P2W giving out free crafting materials, this is more than the 0c cost per gather on infinite tools.
2. Gear treadmill for infinite gathering items that cost real $$$.
3. No prior warning about having old gathering tools made obsolete.

Not much more to add. Eagerly awaiting Anet reply on this situation.

XacTactX.6709:

After reading through several dozen posts by other people and observing the situation these are the main reasons why people dislike the new pick:

1. P2W giving out free crafting materials, this is more than the 0c cost per gather on infinite tools.
2. Gear treadmill for infinite gathering items that cost real $$$.
3. No prior warning about having old gathering tools made obsolete.

Excellent summary!

I personally agree with all these complaints but are most unhappy about problem 2.

TChalla.7146:

I said nothing about “vertical progression.” I said progression. Period. Could be vertical and could be horizontal. Doesn’t matter. I happen to find the new pick axe horizontal progression, since it in no way affects the power of my character.

It is statistically better than the old one, thus it is vertical progression and power creep.

Also called Mudflation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudflation

Something I hoped wouldn’t be present in GW2. But then came ascended. And now there’s mudflation in the gemstore as well.

Fungalfoot.7213:

Just avoid the gem shop in the future. You learned your lesson, yes?

Good point!

Tolmos.8395:

Korossive.7085:

Company replies: 0

If they say nothing, eventually the thread dies and everyone just accepts it and moves on. That’s happened many times since the game released.

It really is a situation of “ignore it and it’ll go away”. And guess what? It does lol

Yes, the angry players go away, never to return or buy another item.

Tolmos.8395:

Could someone post the description of the molten pick that stated that it was the best, would always be the best, and no infinite pick would ever come after it that had better features? I can’t find that anywhere. :-\

The massive pricetag of 12 euros implied it. I certainly didn’t expect them to come out with a better tool less than a year later.

You cannot honestly expect players to pay 36 euros per year, or 3 euros per month, for what is basically a subscription fee for the best-in-slot harvesting tools?

TChalla.7146:

I’m not going to explain why it IS in every game out there. I’ll let you figure it out on your own if you like.

You feel disgruntled. I think it’s misplaced. Whatever.

Every game?

Cool.

Is it in Dwarf Fortress? No? Good, your point is proven a lie, concession accepted.

Thief is most fragile profession, basically dodge-or-die.

The heavy armor classes are much more resilient. That’s why most people play those…

I play thief too by the way so I feel your pain.

TChalla.7146:

If and when that time comes, I might buy that one as well. I bought it for the convenience. Nothing more and nothing less. And I fully expect things to progress in the game. It’s part of every single game out there. So what?

It’s NOT part of every single game out there, and in fact I refuse to play games that have such bad practices.

Guild Wars 1 had no vertical progression, GW2 was advertising with that as well.

Now we have vertical progression in the dratted gem shop. WTF?

zenleto.6179:

I love threads like this. It brings back memories of my 15 years working in retail, and reminds me why I’d never work in it again.

Yeah I worked there 15 years ago. Was very nice experience.

Customers that wanted it, would ALWAYS get a refund, no questions asked. Great policy, no hassle and seeing happy customers.

Let’s hope Anet is equally amicable.

TChalla.7146:

I didn’t say I’ve never purchased from the store. You can assume that if you like, but you’d be wrong.

I can show you a picture of my Salvage-O-Matic if you really like.

Cool. Just wait for Anet to release a new Salvage-O-Matic that has is exactly the same as the copper one, but has the added bonus of giving free extra goodies.

Scumbag Mawile.6384:

76% don’t like it?

Wake up, America Tyria.

Shakkara.2641:

They ruined the tools I paid for previously, so I hate the new ones.

Unless they give the old tools a bonus of some kind as well.

Pretty much this.

Since this new pik is 200 gems more, they could even offer a 200 gem upgrade option to let old infinite gathering tools proc additional mats, too.

This would be acceptable.

Or just add something to the older picks. I’d want both to have some diversity.

mesme.5028:

Shakkara.2641:

TChalla.7146:

Odd… I have never once felt forced to buy anything from the store. I do it because I want whatever item they have sold. If you feel forced, that is your issue.

If you dont purchase from the store, then you have no right to speak on this issue at all.

That’s just silly tbh.

It doesn’t affect you, so why are you here whining?

TChalla.7146:

Odd… I have never once felt forced to buy anything from the store. I do it because I want whatever item they have sold. If you feel forced, that is your issue.

If you dont purchase from the store, then you have no right to speak on this issue at all.

Warlord.9074:

You never “needed” to buy either one of them. You “wanted” to buy them. As far as “the last pick you will ever need to buy” Technically you only needed to buy the game to play it. You don’t need to buy anything else from ANET with real money.

Therefore your argument is invalid.

Game is not complete until all slots are filled with statistically the best items. Anet thus forces people to make repeated purchases, making older purchases obsolete.

Your argument would be true if the upgrades were cosmetic. They are statistical upgrades. Thus your point is false.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

The Infinite Molten Pick still works. You don’t need to buy the new pick, you WANT to. Big difference.

Anet FORCES people because they release a new, more powerful version, making the old one useless.

TChalla.7146:

It is an “infinite use” pick. It still works as intended. You do not need to buy another pick.

I do, cause the old pick is no longer best in slot, thus devaluated, made obsolete, and is useless as only one item can occupy a slot at a given time. It is no longer able to function.

TChalla.7146:

That is by choice. It is not required for you to buy the new one. There are other means of getting the sprockets. The old pick works fine as it was advertised originally.

The previous pick was advertised as “The last pick you’ll ever buy”, so best in slot for all eternity. And it was priced accordingly, as for a full set of them you’d almost pay the price of a full game.

Now there is another pick that is better. Thus my original purchase is wasted and worthless as it is no longer best in slot.

TChalla.7146:

Shakkara.2641:

They ruined the tools I paid for previously, so I hate the new ones.

Unless they give the old tools a bonus of some kind as well.

They did not ruin the ones you bought. You’re spreading a falsehood with this statement. The functionality of what you bought did not change at all.

They did. I can no longer equip the molten alliance pick. The watchwork pick now occupies the slot and there is ZERO reason to use the MA pick over the watchwork one. So the MA pick will now forever gather dust. Thus RUINED.

killcannon.2576:

You are using sprockets in your argument. The example is a pickaxe that creates sprockets.

As stated earlier you are using the shifting sands logical fallacy. If the pick created gold coins instead of sprockets is that ok? Legendaries? Precursors? All these things are obtainable in game. The only difference is perception of what is worthwhile.

Your perception of worth is the logical fallacy. It is p2w. I’m not sure how I can make it any clearer.

I agree. While the current pick doesn’t YET have a signficant impact, it is a slippery slope. They also added mining nodes recently, and these things can get out of hand fast.

But what if we can pay for a bolt of damask farm in our home instance, and new mining picks that quadruple all the resources?

You’d expect stuff like that in P2W farmville games, but Anet seems to be heading that way too.

mesme.5028:

And im sure peeps wouldn’t throw a hissy fit if new versions of the car had better features, but somehow they think it’s ok to do so with a mining pick in a game.

Errr? The best way to kitten someone off is to say that he made a bad buy on his brand new car, cause XXX is better/cheaper/etc. Many wars between neighbours start that way.

mesme.5028:

Mystic.5934:

I would never of bought this pick had I known a functionally better one was going to be released.

fair warning: I’ll be requesting this same refund again if you ever release a pick that is better than the watchwork pick.

I wonder if you would do the same with say a car rl :P.

That’s why I drive a Volkswagen. After 30 years, it’s still as new.

That’s why I don’t buy iDevices and use a 8 year old mobile phone. At least my battery still lasts a full week.

That’s why I replaced my entire wardrobe with Haglofs clothing. Never wears out.

That’s why I bought Victorinox gear. Lifelong warranty.

Death to planned obsolescence!

They ruined the tools I paid for previously, so I hate the new ones.

Unless they give the old tools a bonus of some kind as well.

killahmayne.9518:

It isn’t like they changed the item that you bought, they just introduced a new pick.

Which made the previous one obsolete.

In a game that shouldn’t have planned obsolescence in the first place (Advertised as having no vertical progression!)

ShinjoNaomi.1896:

Shakkara.2641:

VOLKON.1290:

Still not seeing you getting screwed over here. You chose to buy the molten pick and used it for how many months now?

Not long enough for it to pay back for itself, not in gold and not in convenience.

You paid for the convenience of having a pick that doesn’t ever run out. And will continue to never run out. It will continue to work just fine.

Not really, as I can no longer equip it as there is a new pick occupying the same slot. So a good I paid real money for no longer does anything.

ShinjoNaomi.1896:

Hmm… If you never planned on getting a new pick anyway, regardless of what it did, then why are you up in arms about this?

Err what? I was just FORCED by anet to purchase a new pick to replace my now-worthless one, cause they added a bonus to it that the previous one does not have.

ShinjoNaomi.1896:

Oh, so the Molten Pick no longer works at all?

100% Correct. I can no longer equip and use it at all, as the slot is taken by a better version.

They came out with the new pick and deleted or otherwise broke your Molten Pick, /forcing/ you to buy the new one…

Exactly!!!

VOLKON.1290:

You kidding me? When I get around to buying a watchwork one (I intend to do so) I’ll be happy to put my current one on an alt, it saves the bother of having to switch it around (which I don’t bother with now to be honest).

Buy the way, you’re really not intended to any time soon make up the cost in gathered materials or coins saved buying disposable tools. You’re paying for the convenience first and foremost of never having to hit a vendor when you run out of the tools. In the convenience regards alone anyone that mines a lot is getting their value for the cash investment. So go ahead and use the molten on your most commonly played alt (if that’s not your primary “mining” character). You won’t have to swap around the new pick if you don’t want to bother and you’ll never have to hit a vendor for that character for mining picks. If most of your mining is done on your main anyhow the handful of coppers you may or may not miss out on on the alt really aren’t worth the bother or the waste of emotions.

Are you getting paid by Anet to spew these dumb apologist messages or what? You really make no sense whatsoever.

I agree, I was already writing a support ticket to get a refund on the obsolete molten alliance pick I bought earlier.

12 euros per tool, should be best in slot forever. A full set is already close the cost of the full game, and now we’re supposed to pay AGAIN for better version? WTF!