1: We need to keep thread and post sizes more manageable. Should we put a limit on the word length of posts?
Like that will work. I personally don’t have a problem with a single lengthy post, I have a problem that the same people post shorter messages all day long and steer the whole conversation in a way they want it, making it that other issues cannot properly be discussed. Maybe a limit on the amount of posts per week per person.
2: How are we going to chose topics moving forward, for example, by votes or by Anet choosing them etc?
I’d like to see a vote system INSIDE THE GAME. Cause the forum is such a small section of the playerbase.
Margonite!
Largos and Tengu are amongst my favorites too. But I don’t like the way current Tengu look in GW2 at all.
Sorry but tinkering all that stuff doesn’t interest me at all. GW1 did everything I needed in terms of character customization.
Star Trek Online had a better character creator though, design your own race…
I don’t mind 40 people raids.
But I don’t want to deal with RANDOM PEOPLE that mess up the whole attempt or have the players spread out between 5 overflows. Put this into instances and let us decide who we play with.
Vizunnah Square please!
Something really needs to be tweaked regarding the portals.
It happened twice now that I stepped in the portal, and before my computer had loaded, I was dead on arrival. Often I was the only one there. Then another guy would join in and he gets smacked too. And a third, etc.
There just needs to be a grace period between the time to enter portals and the time the boss on the platforms becomes active, so everyone has a chance to enter, load the screen and get ready etc.
I think killing eggs before they hatch is the most important thing.
If too many adds spawn, the goo and bombs will get removed from the carriers by their attacks.
Teams need to be split 50/50 in egghunters and carriers.
OP is correct, top is 1, bottom is 5.
Some people just scream about inflation and increased price of luxury goods (I assume they mostly mean precursors with this) and as game designer and virtual economist of another MMO I just want to comment on this and explain briefly how it works.
If we take precursors for example. The drop rates of these items are intentionally very low, as they are a long term goal.
I’m going to simplify things a lot to make this example clear, so don’t go nitpick, I know there are some flaws in this example.
Anyway, say precursors are so rare, that on average, 10% of the players get a precursor drop through normal gameplay every year. You can be the lucky 10%, but odds are of course much bigger that you’re one of the 90% of the people that don’t get any.
Some of the people that are lucky rather have the money and put their precursor up for sale. However, since it is such a rare item, there is limited supply and very large demand from amongst the 90% that have none, but might want one.
Thus, since supply is low and demand is high, prices start to increase. And increase they will.
However, the average player notices that halfway through the year, he has learned a lot from playing the game effectively, and is now making much more money than before. But he also notices that the price for the precursor he wants goes up, continuously pushing it out of his reach! No matter how good joe average plays, the precursor remains unaffordable by him. So he goes to the forums and screams NOT FAIR!!! INFLATION!!!
But let me tell you the cold hard reality. The reality in this example is, that this year, there are only enough precursors in circulation for 10% of the players. So 90% WILL NOT GET ANY THIS YEAR, no matter how hard they try. Only the richest 10% of the people will be able to purchase them off the trading post. Throughout the year, the average income of players likely went up, as players learned to play more effectively and earn more gold per hour. But this increase in income is global. So if you’re joe average, it will not be enough. To have enough gold for the precursor, you need to be in the top 10%. So either you have to farm 80 hours per week or you need to adopt clever ways of making gold. Playing the game the way that 90% of the people do, is simply not good enough.
Of course, the situation is likely even more dire. As in the real world, the top 1% of the players likely make a thousand times more gold per hour than the average player. Since there is no limit on the amount of legendary weapons a single player can have, they’ll likely buy more than one precursor. So you see some players with 5 legendary items and others still having none. And the chance for you getting a precursor this year is not 10%, but maybe 5%.
So more come screaming to the forums, NOT FAIR!!!
Just tell me how this example is not fair. Why would you be entitled to an item that drops for 10% of the players per year, if you play mediocre? It is not like you don’t have a chance at getting the item yourself at all, you still have 10% base chance from luck, of course this is scaled by the amount of time that you play the game as well, but still you always have a chance. And if you’re not lucky, you just have to play more or better. Who deserves the precursor more, a guy playing 80 hours per week or someone that casually plays an hour per day?
Of course people will now point out that players flipping the trading post make the most gold of them all. This may be true to an extent, but you can still earn plenty of gold, enough for a precursor, if you play smart.
For example, I don’t play the TP that much, as I do enough spreadsheets in real life already. However, I can easily get 15-20g per hour from normal gameplay. So what do I do? Just look which mats are high in demand and farm those like crazy. Lately, linen was very costly. So I went killing flame legion and got many stacks of linen and sold them. Whee. Before that, platinum was crazy in value. So I stripmined zones for platinum on multiple characters, picking up many nice logs along the way too.
Nowadays, I just keep the gw2stuff open for world events, ofc with 3 pages so I can also guest on 2 other servers and farm those events as well. Melandru and Grenth temples are very fine event, so many trash mobs and champions, you’re almost guaranteed to get 10 rare mats and an exotic from attending that, on top of bags full of blues/greens/T5 mats.
Oops, we made players too powerful with ascended gear!
Lets bring Ascended DPS gear back to Exotic levels!
Errrr what? I think you guys are misreading what I’ve said in the OP…
I’m asking for the existing exotic items to be EQUAL stats to ascended items, NOT BETTER. You know, update to ascended, as the title says…
I’m not asking for more powercreep…
1 Chaos Gun from random champion bag in Cursed Shore.
~200 gold in mystic forge, nothing.
There are quite a few good-looking items that currently have exotic stats, but are far harder or more expensive to acquire than ascended gear.
Most of these are the special mystic forge recipes that require 50-200 skillpoints, loadsa mystic coins, gifts, 250 ecto’s, 250 of a T6 crafting component, and/or 250 rare crafting materials.
It’s a bit of a shame that these do not have the stats to show it, because they often have very fancy appearances (better than ascended items) and a lot of work must have been put in creating this art.
So, a selection of items I’d like to nominate for an update are:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Eye_of_Rodgort
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Feathers_of_Dwayna
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Firebringer
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Illusion_%28spear%29
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Immobulus
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infinite_Light
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spirit_Links
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stygian_Blade
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Anomaly
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wings_of_Dwayna
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Volcanus
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vision_of_the_Mists
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Abyssal_Scepter
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aether
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Arachnophobia
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Azureflame
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cragstone
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Eidolon
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Foefire%27s_Essence
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Foefire%27s_Power
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ignus_Fatuus
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ilya
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lyss
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mj%C3%B6lnir
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaver_of_the_Mists
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Crossing
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Mad_Moon
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wall_of_the_Mists
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whisperblade
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wintersbark
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wintersbite
I find it very hard to understand why weapons with such nice names and skins and that require so much effort to acquire do not come with best-in-slot stats.
Besides the above weapons, it would be nice that ascended weapons can be acquired through other ways. And here we can also use existing weapons for that purpose. For example, the exclusive mystic forge weapons such as:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Charrzooka_%28weapon%29
And rare champion bag weapons such as:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cobalt
When I think Guild Wars, I think awesome looking gear and cosmetic progression. A lot of that was already in the game, but just didn’t make the transition when ascended items were introduced. Perhaps it would be time to revisit them?
What do you think? Is there any other equipment out there that could use an update in stats?
I have a thief with 50% crit.
10% of 50% is 5% dmg reduction.
However my main weapon is shortbow.
Shortbow gets a second sigil.
A 5% damage sigil just dropped for me today.
GG Anet.
Due to personal time constraints, I think it took me close to a year to deck out my main in Celestial gear. If the nerf works out as feared… it’d be incredibly discouraging to say the least. I would probably eschew further gear acquisitions that are time-gated and/or require massive amounts of resources. It’s just not worth the risk.
I thought I was smart to deck out my alts that I don’t play too much in Celestial gear. I thought I was smart, cause I thought that no matter how much Anet altered the game in the long run, those characters would be safe from nerfs cause they had the most versatile equipment that would fit any kind of build.
Anet: TROLOLOLOLOLOLLLLLLL!!!!!
I think Celestial should have all their stats raised, since Celestial already had its magic find stat removed before, and got no compensation for that either.
I really wish they kept the Home Instance unlocks to in-game unlocks. They were on the right path with the idea. Until now…
True… Hopefully a toxic spore plant at the end of next quest line…
I might be buying one just to have it as decorative item for when we get customizable houses. I want a cavern with shinies, so…
But I agree that the material value is in no reasonable relation to the cost of these items.
(edited by Shakkara.2641)
I’ve felt this for awhile, though I still don’t quite know how to phrase it. Wondering if others might have an opinion.
As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.
I’ve suggested zones without waypoints as a way around this. Does anybody else feel the same way? Or am I romanticizing the runs from towns to far-flung locations in GW1?
I like waypoints for the current content, but I would like to see more, new level 80 areas which don’t have many waypoints in them. Really big areas, think the size of the current playable world map. There can however be shrines where you can resurrect if you die (closest shrine only), like in GW1, so you don’t have to walk for hours if you die.
I’d really like to see the housing system tie into this. So you build your house in a spot in the actual game world and it really matters where exactly in the wilderness you build your house. Maybe you can even build an upgrade to teleport to your house. So you have a base of operations in the wilderness. Maybe you can even provide services there for other players, so you’re really a settler and can make money by having a house with services in a location that is 4 hours walk from the nearest waypoint.
I think some of the conveniences we have now should be disabled while in the wilderness (such as being able to send crafting materials to bank), so you really need to manage your logistics. Since storage will be an issue, it’d be fun if players can set up their own dolyak caravan to get their loot and resources out of the wilderness. And they have to guard it against NPCs or lose it all.
Part 1: @ Shakkara
Snip rant vs. Sub Classes
You forget, that ANet has to go sure, that the Game stays at all times easy to balance and clear. Something that you most likely never will be able to guarantee with gameplay mechanisms that you want so badly – a 100 percent super perfect free character diversification, that simply allows everything.
You will never find something like this in MMO’s and you know that! And why do you know this? Because you know as good as me, that a game, that simply allows everything is totally unbalanceable!!.
Oh funny, cause there already have been so many online games that DO HAVE THIS.
Ultima Online (spend 720 skillpoints any way you choose between 50+ skills that go from 0 to 120, many skills may allow you to use spells or special weapon abilities)
The Secret World (spend ability points to unlock abilities, which have a variable cost associated with them ranging from 1 point to 500 points. From the selection of unlocked abilities, pick 7 active and 7 passive abilities at will from a total pool of 700+ abilities; weapons have a skillset just like GW2, but you can mix and match from a pool of 56 abilities for each weapon!)
Nodiatis (dualclassing with 26 classes, then customize character further by speccing in roughly 100 different skills and then build 3 decks of 50 abilities out of 500+ abilities)
I don’t feel like addressing the rest of your post as it is obviously blatantly false and the above examples illustrate that GW2’s character development system is lacking AND that a deep system doesn’t have to become an unbalanced or unintuitive mess – The Secret World is widely regarded as a very intuitive and easy to understand character development system.
i many mmo’s, same end: I quitted as finished exploring-leveling, because i hate any form of increasing numbers and new gear.
diablo 3. wow. path of exile. lotro
everything i tried, ended in…grinding/farming.
every guild i tried psychologically disturbed people who wasted their lives following best dps, best tier, best achievement…you know. 30-40hrs every week.
the common internet gaming addiction.until a friend of mine linked that kitten ed manifesto.
(you’ll say again: you misunderstood it. it is right…etc etc etc. ok. what do you want.
it’s not important here. )
i liked the idea that there was no grinding at all (at least, not for BiS, that i acquired within hours from hitting 80), the fact everything you did gave you exp, so leveling was not a grind. and of course, no real money auction house or payto win, no botters.
“if you don’t like mmo…” we’ll know these words.
just pay the game at start, and keep playing.
so i started gw2..leveled till 80 a pair of characters, did part of the storyline, did some dungeons, some world events.
i mainly explored maps, and did events as they found them in the world, coop-ing with everybody i met. just for my love for exploration.
followed living story when i had time.
everything was fine for me.until the introduction of ascended.
and here we are.
Well said. I’m in the same boat. If I liked WoW, I’d play that game. I played this game because it was advertised as doing thing different. No grind for stupid numbers going up. Cosmetic progression only.
it’s not my obligation to bow to what gw2 has become.
Exactly. The devs must get back on track and adhere to the manifesto and the things Colin promised us before release.
Nike,
That’s exactly why I think that Sub-Classes should be mostly cosmetic. Perhaps give each sub-class a boost to one or two stats, with an equal deduction to their opposite stats.
Cool, which subclass gives me more power at the expense of healing power?
On your GW1 memories:
- In Prophecies it took quite some time to level.
GW1 wasn’t perfect at release and still needed a lot of tweaking. I quit GW1 a few days after release. I came back at Factions and played it pretty much non stop after that. In fact I finished the Nightfall campaign before I finished the Prophecies one.
- Stats were in guildwars 1, they were very simplified but there.
No, they had an attribute system. Which is very similar to the overhaul of the trait system I propose now.
Also, stats were not on gear, with the exception of the “20% chance to get +1 to attribute x” mod on certain items.
-Gw1 skills had cool-downs too , sometimes quite long , meteor shower for instance.
Yes, and I said “MOST” not “ALL”. It also had plenty of skills that had no cooldown, like adrenal skills. Or most of the assassin skills that effectively had no recharge that you’d notice, UNLESS some other skill interfered with them. Most skills had ways to recharge them instantly (Keystone Signet, Dragon Slash, “On your Knees!” or bypass the cooldown (Echo, etc).
-Gw1 professions were roughly designed to be Rock paper sissors, i.e a mesmer beats elementalist, elementalist beats paragon, paragon beats ranger, ranger beats elementalist, ele beats monk. and so on. They were also trinity based.
Disagreed, sorry. My warrior was once challenged by a guildie Necro. I won three times in a row, each time with a completely different skillbar and different secondary class. The last time I had a Warrior/Ranger skillbar that did almost no damage, but would almost permanently daze him and he eventually just died from bleeding. Had Broadhead Arrow as elite too. There is no rock/paper/scissors, its all about how smart you are and what creative builds you can come up with. If you only use other people’s builds, yes, those are rock-paper-scissors…
On your suggested changes:
-levels serve a purpose to get a person to learn the ropes before jumping into fighting dragons, to teach mechanics etc and not overwhelm a player, I know you or I can jump right in , but for a person whos playing an MMO for the first time it is alot to learn.
You got a point here. So maybe the 20 levels like in GW1, that you can play through in a few hours as a big tutorial, wouldn’t be such a bad idea.
-The limited amount of skills on offer was meant to make balancing easier for the team.
That’s not an excuse, that only makes them either lazy or unqualified to work on an MMO.
-synergies do exist and are currently used to do some of the most effective combinations. Burst heals, might stacking , Lifestealing aoe’s
I don’t deny that, but I feel they’re very limited.
-an energy mechanic is another form of cooldown
No, not at all. Lol.
Cooldown only means you cannot use particular skill X for Y time.
Energy mechanic means that you must choose to use skill X OR skill Y OR skill Z as you only have the energy to use one. Or that you can spam skill X Y times in a row but then have to wait Z time until you have enough energy to use any skills at all.
And lastly that is how you would “change” the game, not “fix” your ideas are how you would alter the game to match your ideals, they are not everyones ideals.
Well that doesn’t mean that this game doesn’t have very fundamental problems.
Can either fix these problems, or drop work on them completely and focus on other parts of the game.
But building on top of broken systems is not a good idea. See the post above. Subclasses right now would only result in DPS optimization, nothing more.
i really don’t get why people are talking about sub classes when ROLES outside of damage aren’t even properly supported
want control? defiance says good luck with that
support? good luck passing the Damage threshold for loot
more items like the toxic krait tonic that let players not interested in gear treadmills dump their ascended materials is required, that or make them tradeable/ vendorable
Hear, hear…
If they add subclasses now, everyone just picks the one that gives the most DPS.
Right now it’s Zerker or GTFO almost everywhere in PVE land, for good reason. The game mechanics are just too limited to allow for any variation in strategy.
(edited by Shakkara.2641)
You’re still not really reading that feedback, are you. This is not a forum for telling other people how wrong they are for disagreeing with your vision of the game, and it’s not a forum for addressing the developers specifically. You had the germ of a good argument in the previous post – that having a set of shared skills that every profession has access to is better than having lots of different subclasses – and instead of railing against other people’s ideas, you should have developed your own and shown how it solves problems that other approaches have.
Well the thing is, that in my opinion, this game has become a stack of fundamental design mistakes and it is very hard to fix all of these or even put good new mechanics on top of these systems because the foundation is rotten at the core. So whenever I see new mechanics that continue to worsen the problem, I just cringe. That’s why I hope the developers just ‘give up on’ character-based progression and provide entirely new systems: Houses, Guild Halls, Factions, etc.
The fundamental problems I see with the current mechanics are a very long list but here are a few:
- Levels – the problem with levels is that characters cannot explore the whole world from the start, each zone has a level check. Unlike GW1, Leveling takes a very long time and there is almost no level 80 content. In GW1 Factions and later, only the starter island was low level, the rest was max level content.
- Character Stats – Totally uninteresting way of developing a character. Currently, stats > skill (both player skill and the kind of skill you use). Fundamental problems with stats and stat scaling include the dominance of Power as most important stat and the fact that hybrid characters and skills that have both direct damage and condition damage are inherently kitten, as you need two different stats to use them.
- Skills being cooldown-based instead of resource based (I play Thief as they’re the only exception). This is going to be a very big problem, as it severely reduces tactical and build choices when they’re going to add more skills. And ensures that almost all the skills they are ever going to add are those with ridiculously long cooldowns.
- Lack of synergy between skills. Skill categories not being used much. No clever skills like Keystone Signet or “On your knees!” that interact with a skill category to make an interesting build with. This is also a problem with the lack of interesting elite skills.
So if I must come up with a solution as you suggest, I’d do the following:
- Remove character levels completely.
- Remove stats completely, replace item properties with situational bonuses that tie into skills.
- Allow players to have 2 professions (only use armor and the unique mechanic such as pet or stealing or virtues etc for primary profession).
- Add an universal energy mechanic as resource, reduce almost all skill recharge times to 10 sec and below
- Group skills into traitlines and allow players to spend points in traits of primary and secondary profession to buff all related skills
- Add hundreds of new skills, unlock them through completing hearts/skillthingies already on map, purchase them with dungeon tokens, get them as an occasional ‘drop’ from specific world bosses and champions. Players that like PVP may also purchase them with Honor badges and Glory. Alts can purchase skills that you previously unlocked on the account with Karma.
That’s how I’d fix the game. But I suppose it is rather extreme and would upset a lot of players. But I think it is a lot more true to the original manifesto than what we currently have.
Why would I want to play through the content that I did already?
If anything, the game needs less stats and levels, not more. I don’t want to play to see pointless numbers go up.
There should be much more horizontal progression: New skills, new dungeons, new cool looking items, housing, guild halls, player owned towns, etc.
They’re different kind of games. Most of the best sandbox MMOs require a commitment most people can’t make. Take Eve for example. How many casual Eve players have you met?
Because of this, sand box games will usually have lower populations than themepark games. They’re just more demanding.
And they’ll probably all have open world PvP which a whole lot of people don’t like.
I disagree. Sandbox games can be casual and can lack PVP. Just look at Ultima Online. Everquest Next. Wildstar.
They don’t have to be a hardcore PVP fest like EVE.
And I used to play EVE casually and have seen many casual player corporations. Just don’t expect to play 0.0 casually… Although you could just join a 0.0 corp as low-level grunt and casual through that too.
But anyway, I think sandbox-themepark hybrids are the way to go.
Wasn’t there a city of heroes add-on that allowed players to build their own dungeons and other players had to attack them, or something?
(edited by Shakkara.2641)
All themepark MMOs are going to run into the same problem. There won’t be enough content to play, and therefore, people will have to repeat stuff until new stuff comes out. I don’t really see any way around that.
Well yes, but that’s why we need sandbox MMOs, or themepark-sandbox hybrids (even better). Games that allow the players to create the content or allow for a lot of emergent gameplay.
And just a reminder, Guild Wars 2 was advertised as having “everything you like about GW1”.
So let’s sum up everything I liked in GW1…
1) Getting max level in a few hours
2) Getting best in slot equipment in a few hours
3) 100s of skills to freely choose from
4) Dual-classing
5) Party-based content with heroes and henchmen
6) Being able to customize heroes with gear and skills
7) Title-based progression
8) Almost all monsters playing the game in an identical way the player would, using skills available to players and having similar HP pool as players
9) Much instance-based content so I can choose who I want to play with (or alone)
10) Repeatable storyline missions with secondary objectives
11) Awesome believable villains (eg Shiro being corrupted over time)
12) Hardcore story (Rurik gets banished by his father and almost everyone dies!)
13) Player-owned towns (factions) – could use improvement but idea is nice
14) Guild Halls
15) Hardcore skill-based PVP with deep tactics due to 3 and 4
16) Being able to burn through the gates and unlock everything very quickly, due to 1 – I finished Nightfall and EOTN in less than 2 days each, upon release, and was then free to access all the content in the regions to capture skills and farm and play dungeons and purchase armor etc. I hate content gates, levels and gearchecks in particular!
And how much of that list does GW2 ultimately have? None with the exception of 2, as promised by Colin, which was then burned down as well with the introduction of ascended.
Which is a shame, as you only need to look at GW1 to see a lot of very clever mechanics that actually can be integrated into GW2 to make the game infinitely more fun. In particular, points 3, 4, 10, 13, 14 and 15.
(edited by Shakkara.2641)
Hi Shakkara,
I just want to point out that this is not a particularly collaborative or useful post. Please however don’t take this personally.
The whole point of CDI is to discuss, brainstorm and then ‘reduce’ ideas as a group until they reach their pure essence.
Making assumptions about what ‘everyone’ wants just does not work in this kind of collaborative environment and not lead to progression within ideation.
Finally the purpose of the CDI is not for the developer to be told what ‘Everyone’ wants. It is to work together to evolve our design philosophies and experience in game leading toward synergy in problem solving and ideation.
I hope this makes sense.
Chris
P.S: Go Hawks!
Perhaps you should address the points I made with my post instead of the way I wrote it.
The points that make subclassing a bad system are as follows:
- You offer us a choice between pre-fab packets of skills/traits/specialstuff exclusive to a subclass. So the only choice we have is which subclass to pick. That’s not really much freedom in customizing our character.
- You need to produce and balance a lot of content that is exclusive to each subclass, so basically, a load of work goes to waste as a player locks himself out of 99% of the options when he chooses a subclass. A superior approach is putting out a lot of non-exclusive content from which players can choose, so they can mix and match and effectively make their own subclass.
- You unlock the subclass for ONE chunk. Instead of having parts (skills/traits/etc) scattered around the world and unlocking them bit by bit and really having a journey of unlocking and personalizing your character in little tiny pieces. Of course you can have a bunch of subclass exclusive content that gives you a few more little skills/traits/etc for your particular subclass, but that brings us back to point 2 of 99% of the work going to waste as it is unavailable to a particular character due to subclass choice, thus you’ll never be able to provide a very good experience as you simply don’t have the manpower to make lots and lots of personal stories and quest things for each and every subclass.
GW1 already had a superb character diversification system with dual classing. Why not take a good look at that system? It also allows you to re-use a lot of existing content and mechanics. You just need to make all classes able to use all weapons, and weaponskills to fit all the classes. And then players can choose between the weaponskills from their primary and secondary profession. Maybe even have some skills that you can only choose if you specifically have both professions. Even though I see some issues with it, I think it’d be totally awesome if the whole class mechanics are also available to the secondary profession. So everyone could pick ranger as secondary and run around with a pet, for example. But that’d be something for a later stage, as there will be issues with it.
Anyway, back to your complaint, you can say that ‘we’ don’t want X or Y, but I can see plenty of that in the metrics in this thread. Just like I saw plenty of people vocal about the fact that they didn’t want ascended items, and there are still massive problems in the game due to their introduction, (Jewelcrafting broken, many hard-to-get items that have fabulous skins no longer having best in slot stats, crafting for XP being very uneconomic now due to 500 crafting levels, economy problems, many aspects of the game rendered useless as they don’t lead to BiS gear, lack of 425 and 475 recipies leaving ‘hell levels’ in the crafting progression, to name a few) but the dev team is completely unrepentant about it and just tells us in their face they still support their decision. Maybe two or three points of the whole list will receive a band-aid fix in the future… But nothing is learned from the mistake.
Now we’ve got a similar case and I just see history repeat itself. I fear you’ve already made your decision that we’re going to get subclasses and no matter what we say, you’re going to ram it down our throats anyway. You fail to see the fundamental problems and their implications with your design. Just like ascended.
I think subclasses is a perverted variant of the things we asked for in this thread. Let’s make an analogy. It’s like people asking for a means of transport that allows them to visit friends and familiy and go out with their kids and stuff. And you come back to them and say “Hey look, I designed a train!”. People look at it and point out the bad sides: They have to go to a station which is far away and the train only takes them to specific places. It doesn’t give them the freedom to choose where they want to go. Clever people narrow the wishes down further and it becomes clear that what they actually want is a car. But you already have this train idea worked out so far in your head that you ignore them completely.
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If this game were marketed with no vertical progression, there would be no character levels. There would be no tiers of item (basic, fine, masterwork, rare, exotic).
That’s originally how GW2 was designed. No levels, no rarity in gear.
That’s how it should have remained.
Vertical progression should be banned out of the world of MMOs forever.
Vertical progression is at the very core of this game, and every other MMO, GW1 included.
In GW1 you could get to max level and best-in-slot gear in 3 hours, levels are just there to not overwhelm the new player with options, its a tutorial. I have thousands of hours in GW1, so 99.9999999999% of my playtime was at max level with best in slot gear. With GW2, no such luck.
There are and there will be many MMOs that have no vertical progression whatsoever. Puzzle Pirates. Second Life. Wurm Online. The Chronicles of Spellborn. For a more modern approach, take a look at Everquest Next. No levels, no progression. Just total freedom. EQNext is going to kill the outdated WoW MMO model, and ITS ABOUT TIME!
Is ascended gear mandatory for anything? No. It’s optional, JUST LIKE THEY SAID IT WOULD BE
FALSE!
Fractals quickly become unplayable without Ascended items with Agony resist, and it significantly unbalances WvW.
Even if you switch to a different class after you reach 80, thief is STILL a very good alt, because of all the stealth/dodging/swiftiness stuff allows you to harvest rare material nodes very very easily and quickly. And you’ll need lots of that stuff later on so having multiple 80’s is nice.
Cleaning out a whole zone of crafting resources is what thief is better at than any other class.
I finally got one ascended weapon and a set of rings and necklace for my main….
… but I have 2 more level 80 characters, and they just feel kitten and I don’t like playing with them anymore cause I know I can never afford to outfit them as well
I have a Thief as main and also got a guardian and warrior to max level.
I still like the Thief best. Thief is basically the only class that doesn’t have weaponskills on cooldown, instead it uses initiative as mechanic which is awesome. Thief can be quite challenging to play, for levelling I personally used Pistol/Pistol and Shortbow and just run in circles, cause if anything hits you in melee you’re pretty much dead. Now at endgame I use shortbow almost exclusively. It’s really a nice weapon even though it doesn’t have any very long range skills.
Had the same problem and solved it the same way as Yargesh said.
Get second character in the order you want.
Buy item you want on second character.
Buy a white item matching the itemtype.
Use gold transmutation stone to get the visual appearance onto the white item.
Transfer the white item to primary character.
Use full transmutation stone to put some nice juicy level 80 exotic stats on the item.
Wear it.
And most importantly: How would this result in unlocking an advanced profession or advanced horizontal progression for your character? [I get how a system like this could be used for more world bonus specific rewards which is really cool, but I don’t fully see the character specific journey which was my original question]
The event idea is an interesting one, but it doesn’t feel like a “grand journey” so to speak. Do you feel like if we asked you to do 90 different events in a month, and that allowed your ranger to say become a Druid, you’d feel like that was a cool system.
No, just please NO!
This is a terrible system, and I think you get what we want completely the wrong way around.
We want more skills and more traits to have more diversity and really build a character that suits OUR wishes.
What you’re doing with your subclasses, is once again make DEVS design character templates for players to follow.
Worst of all, you’ll go and produce a lot of content which is EXCLUSIVE to a particular subclass and thus cannot be used by any other player character. This results in a lot of work that doesn’t have much value to an individual player. You should make content for ALL classes, and let players cherry-pick from that freely, and create their own subclass that way!
In ultima online, I can combine skills from 50 different professions and choose become a vampire-paladin-warrior-samurai also known as Sampire, a class designed and created by the players. And sampires come in 100’s of different flavours, mine for example doesn’t have bushido and has much less chivalry, but instead has bandage healing and parries with a shield instead of a 2h weapon.
What you want to do, is give us a ‘druid’ subclass. With a few new standard abilities that are unique to the druid and cannot be creatively combined in any way. You’re once again determining what is good for us, instead of giving us any freedom over our characters.
Worst of all, you propose us to do some chore as task, that has the subclass as ‘reward’ at the end. Sounds an awful lot like vertical progression to me. If this is about horizontal progression, there should be a horizontal approach to acquiring new skills, meaning that like in GW1, they’re split in many little bits which are ALL available for capture at the same time, waiting for you to capture. It’s up to you how you prioritize their acquisition. I think a similar system to the hearts would work, heart-quest like things that each unlock an individual skill/trait/etc upon completion. The only bad thing is that GW2 has so many character levels and thus many zones are not yet accessible to low level characters so that unfortunately means that they can’t capture everything right from the start. But yeah, having levels in GW2 was one of the biggest mistakes anyway.
We want houses, we want more skills.
WE DONT WANT SUBCLASSES!
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http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs19/i/2007/282/b/7/Dark_Mage_by_alanlathwell.jpg
Dreadknight. Combination of dark magic and martial prowess. Where the guardian is sorta a good aligned character, this class is much more sinister.
Hey Chris, all this discussion brings up one big question from me: how feasible is all of this? Cause players (and me too) are putting forward some pretty ambitious and detailed featurerequests. Features that currently do not exist in GW2 at all and kinda move away from the game design as it stands (For example, with the housing I see a lot of requests for sandbox features, while the game is technically a themepark MMO).
I’m currently a game designer in the real world and have designed some pretty big MMOs in the past. Even though I give lectures on crowdsourcing game design and involving the player communities in this process, as a game designer I’d be VERY unhappy if the community gets to make decissions like this: I personally see myself in charge of the game’s overall vision and when I was lead designer on an active MMO (sadly the plug got pulled out of that one due to IP licence being terminated), I had a multi-year plan in place for new features and content to add. I’d poll the community for popularity on each of the features which I had already for 90%+ finalized the design of, so I could prioritize and shuffle the order in which they would appear, so the community input might influence that last 10% which I’d still be unsure about and was still open to discussion.
But in the end it was I, and the rest of the design team, that held the vision for the game. Not the players.
So I kinda wonder how this works with Arenanet? Why are you asking us all this stuff? Is there no multi-year plan in place with features that you’re going to add next? Are you looking how to prioritize upcoming features? Do you have unfinished ideas for features but are you turning to us to fill in the details and get some fresh inspiration? Or did you have a vision but did it fail (Living Story? Manifesto up in flames? Dwindeling playerbase?), and are you now establishing a new vision and turning the players to help you with this?
So what is the role of this CDI and how far will you take it? How realistic is it for players to expect to see any of this stuff being added to the game? And why do you need us in the fist place, why don’t you have a game designer or creative director in charge that tells the team what to do next?
Not to bash this initiative, but I must say I personally prefer a dictatorship regarding game design over a democracy by the unwashed masses. A dictatorship led by CAPABLE people with a vision, talent and great attention to detail.
There has been a huge amount of discussion around sub classes. I would love to see you guys close out this particular area by either putting a sub class proposal together (Sentence detailing how it would work) or deciding as a group that it isn’t relevant at this point.
Personally I like the idea behind sub classes and see quite a few of the counter arguments based upon assumptions around balancing etc. Where possible we should try not to make decisions around feasibility of ideas through assumptions.
In short I would like to see if the CDI group thinks it is a relevant part of Horizontal Progression at this stage of GW2’s life?
Chris
I personally would prefer NOT to have subclasses, as classes and subclasses imply specialization and exclusiveness (skills/traits/gear/content only available to a particular class or subclass).
Instead I would like to see more options and our characters becoming more generalist: being able to equip skills from other classes or even doing away with classes alltogether and seeing a revamp of the attribute lines like GW1 had (without the class restrictions).
For reference, I really like Ultima Online’s system, where there are 50+ skill lines which go up to 120, and you can freely distribute 720 skillpoints between them and really build your own class that way. Sampire is a very popular one: Any weaponskill + Bushido for samurai weapon abilities + Necromancy to turn into a vampire and leech life + Chivalry for extra paladin damage buffs. Really making your own character class is much more exciting than being pigeonholed into a specialization.
So with GW2, this would mean you can put attribute points in attribute lines, and each attribute line has a selection of skills to pick from which improve when you spend points in the line. Each level of an attribute requires more and more attribute points to unlock, so you can either choose to be specialist and have 2-3 attributes maxed out, or generalist and spread your attribute points between lines and seek to gain your strenght from finding powerful combinations and synergy between the associated skills themselves.
The armor type you wear should simply cost you attribute points. Or, if an universal resource (energy) is re-introduced, affect your rate of recovery.
In my opinion the current stats (power vitality etc) should be removed from the game in lieu of attribute lines. Item properties should synergize with attribute lines or skill categories (+X armor when affected by a shout, +Y stance duration, etc)
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I picked new skills, housing and faction-related content initially.
The most important one to me is Housing. I can live with the bad and boring combat system if the grinding I do is for a reason, that reason being the development of my house.
What I would really like to see is player-run towns, with town-based progression and challenges that affect the whole community. Let me explain:
Towns and Housing Overview
The town is a group of players. This can either be defined as any group of players that want to live together in a specific town, or all the players of a single guild having a town, or an alliance of guilds controlling a town. While the whole town thing may or may not be instanced, the houses should never be: The outside location of a house should represent ONE actual player’s home and plots in a town should be limited (but the amount of towns themselves do not have to be). Towns and their surrounding land should be at least half the size of a current game map, as there will be plenty of things to do OUTSIDE the gates as well.
Houses should be customizable to a certain degree (maybe put together with modular blocks or something) and should be decorable with furniture items. Furniture can be crafted, earned in events and from achievements, bought with tokens, bought in cash shop etc. Minipets can be assigned to roam inside the house or in the yard.
I like the idea of assigning rooms in the house to your various characters.
Town Challenges
Towns should ‘grow’ (maybe not in actual size, but in options available to them) based on the amount of active players in them and the ‘net worth’ of player houses that have been constructed (calculated from house material, house size and furniture inside). Once a certain growth level has been reached, challenges appear, that require the citizens to rally. Challenges may be:
- Dynamic events start spawning on the town map: Sieges, caravans that require escorts, etc.
- Dungeon instance entrances appearing on the town map: Cultist lair, Destroyer cave, etc. These dungeons can be completed a finite amount of times by their citizens, then a boss spawns on the town map for all to kill and the dungeon entrance collapses.
- Gathering event: A magistrate from the queen or whoever the city owns fealty to requires X amount of resource Y, which can either be a base product or a bulk order for a particular crafted good (hint hint make crafting profitable). Citizens should rally to gather this stuff.
Successfully completing these dynamic events should reward the players based on their contribution. Failure to complete the events in time should have a drawback in the resource nodes available on the town map (Farm could burn down, mine could collapse, etc) or their quality or their output.
Special Town Structures
While the houses belong to individual players, towns that have overcome challenges should be able to construct special structures inside or around the town. Examples of such special buildings are:
- Guild Halls!
- Mayor’s residence
- Structure spawning resource nodes: Farms, mines, lumber camps
- Crafting stations: Smiths, weavers, etc
- Shops (general goods vendors, house component vendors, furniture vendors)
- Bank and trading post structure
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From what I see in the game, I estimate that at the moment they have between 100k and 150k concurrent users.
460k at launch sounds about right.
It’s silly that an MMO from 1997 with a dozen developers originally could come up with something like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbU6c6d1GC0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FztPLlnOnhk
and we still don’t have custom housing.
How bad I want a successor to Ultima Online.
Housing inside the game world
Drop items on the ground and interact with them everywhere you want (no other MMO has that as far as I know)
No instances
No levels
Sandbox
Good crafting system
No soulbound, trade everything
No classses, use skillpoints to build a character from 50+ skills any way you like
Unique, one of a kind items
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I think most people misunderstand the OP and think he wants to go back to click-to-move and static casting etc.
But I think he means: go back to the CCG mechanics. 1000s of skills, energy management instead of cooldowns, synergy between skills, interesting modifiers on gear, skill categories with skills/traits/items tying into that much more, etc.
And I kinda hope Anet WILL overhaul the battle mechanics and put all of the above in there. So KEEP all the fast-paced action (dodging, jumping, run&cast) but bring back the strategy and diversity of GW1.
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I think it is unlikely that they’re going to do a new race any time soon, because that means they have to do every armor model currently in existence again to fit on the new race. Which is a bit of a big effort and I’m not sure if that effort is worth the benefits.
Ascended items were a terrible idea and ANet should feel bad.
I mean, it completely flies in the face of their “we don’t make grindy games” mantra.
This.
I don’t mind ascended, as long as it would have exactly the same stats as Exotic. The benefits should have been:
1) Cosmetic
2) Infusionstuff
3) Convenience such as ability to change stat layout, like legendary
This way, you remove all the downsides that they have now, because you don’t feel you have to gear all your alts with them as you only need the ascended gear if you want to do high lvl fractals (most people only have one character for fractals, right?). You also don’t have to have multiple sets of ascended armor in case you want to switch your character’s build (most people have different sets for PVE and WVW, etc).
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Personally I don’t think Elder Scrolls Online will be a competitor, as it is just another WoW clone.
I think sandbox games are the future, see Everquest Next.
So the question is, how much sandbox stuff (like houses) can GW2 put in before EQN comes out…
Levels are a stupid mechanic that should never have been in GW2 in the first place. Downscaling and sidekicking tackle some of the major downsides of having levels, but also result in many other issues.
Unfortunately, they cant really change downscaling because otherwise the zones will be too hard for low level players (who do not have access to any rare/exotic/ascended quality equipment).
REMOVE LEVELS!
The NDA is still in effect. It has only been lifted for some invited media people. You’re still breaking NDA if you say you are in the beta or talk about it.
Well too bad those things don’t count in half the world anyway.
(No physical paper and no physical signature = no agreement)
btw this is not a ftp game it is btp :P
Yes so even less reason to charge money for anything other than full blown expansions. We paid for a full game, but instead it is crippled. Not enough bank slots, not enough char slots, no WvW until you pay up, etc.
Server transfer service is meant to be a paid for service, the gold to gems method is nearly an option, which I feel is meant for low income people or those that reside outside USA or other countries where the currency exchange rates make these costs prohibitive.
Gold to Gems doesnt equal free. Someone has to pay for these gems in the first place. So it still costs money.
The costs A-Net charges for this service in comparison with other games is extremely low, with an option, to grind for ingame gold and get it entirely for free. I remember the very 1st time I transferred my account in WoW where the costs were $25 per character, not account, character, consequently I paid $125 to transfer my whole account, twice.
The costs for doing this on other games is just insane. The total value of the game is 50 bucks. So any services should be a fraction of this price.
The amount of entertainment hours per buck spent in GW2, is absolutely worth it when you think about other entertainment options in comparison, for example cable subs, etc.
LOL. For 50 bucks, I could purchase a completely different game, like GTA5, and have at least half a year of entertainment off that.
$20 + 1 achievement chest, or $30 with leftover gems, is indeed a very low transfer cost, and I do not see any regularly working person having issues with such costs. Honestly, any person having serious issues with these needs to re examine their life altogether and weather they should be spending time on this game at all, unless as stated above, they reside in a country / region where currency exchange rates are extremely unfavorable for them to do so.
I earn over 2 times the average income in my country and I still refuse to pay UNREASOABLE fees. Just like I don’t pay 150 bucks for a pair of jeans when I can get nice jeans for 30 that fit just as well and I don’t spend 50 bucks on 10 new plastic warhammer models when I can get the older metal ones off ebay for a third of that price. And I think anyone that is willing to pay such sums for such a small service like character transfers should have their heads examined.
I refuse to pay more than a pay-to-play MMO subscription fee on a free-to-play game. Anything else is insanity.