Guild Wars 2

When people talk of vertical progression it should also be remembered that adding new skills, that increase effectiveness over previous skills is also a form of vertical progression. I.e powercreep

We saw this in GW1, when PvE skills came in and (after a period of ‘grind’) were so OP they became pretty much mandatory and thus restricted a lot of build and player diversity.

For me, the issue isn’t about how easy or hard it is to reach the next tier of stats/effectiveness but the fact it’s there at all.

Given how vocal people have been ever since their introduction I had hoped this thread would have been about the above not how easy/hard it is to get it.

I’m sorry, but I feel this is a missed opportunity and will do little to recover the good will and confidence that many lost with the introduction of ascended items. The passion by which people feel about H vs V has to show they care more about the approach than the method of acquisition.

As I mentioned previously. Keep the effort etc the same. But
1. No more tiers of gear and say so
2. Add dynamic flexibility of stats to ascended and above. I know for many this would be a far better incentive to play to get it.
3. Revert to horizontal progression asap and don’t use the gem store to bypass the effort to get stuff

Vertical progression is to me at least chasing after shadows. Either you increase the effectiveness so little it becomes pointless to have it, or you have it so it makes some difference and then have to include it into your game balancing equations.

Eventually everyone will have it, or get bored and thus you are backed into a corner of either needing to up the effectiveness again or accept that you have to now go by horizontal progression.

You are also faced with the same question as to raising the level cap. Raise the level cap AND increase effectiveness you then have to balance everything to that new level cap as well as deal with the bad press and community backlash of all their hard won gear being outdated and comparatively ineffective.

Since we are where we are, and the removing of ascended tiers would create just as much harm as making news ones. I think drawing a line under things and looking at ways of improving things horizontally is the most logical and cost effective(both in money and community good will) way to go

If the objective is to provide an intermediate step between exotic and legendary in terms of time spent that kinda fine(would have been nice to have been told this up front) then my suggestion is to increase flexibility as you go up a tier not effectiveness

So.
Rate and Exotic: Fixed stats, limited looks
Ascended gear: Variable stats(can change on the fly) Limited looks
Legendary: Variable stats and shiny looks.

No one wants their expensive, ascended gear to be outdated if subsequent patches make a certain stat combo unviable or suboptimal. I know for me, I would just quit rather than be made to regrind all the mats again.

If exotics are easy to get, then changing a build is less expensive and less painful.

This way we work towards flexibility and looks as a reward progression rather than short lived power increase which exponentially increase the effort and workload. It will also help increase build diversity which at this point in time has to be a good thing.

There also seems to be a lot of community damage control needed. So again, I would suggest.
1. End the speculation about more gear tiers
2. State that level cap will not rise.
3. Be transparent and open about future plans
4. Apologise for the upset these moves have caused, and state that don’t worry we’ve learned the lessons and moved on.

Over the last couple of days we’ve seen controversy erupt over youtube’s use of a content ID system which seems to flag and ‘hijack’ video content (such as reviews, live stream recordings and the like) which contains excepts from games.

The content creators then have to go through a dispute mechanism to try to reclaim the ownership of the content they created.

http://kotaku.com/youtube-copyright-chaos-continues-game-publishers-to-t-1481517758

A few games companies have come out and published their stance on it (such as blizzard,capcom and square enix) while others have adopted a ‘sort it out amongst yourselves’ approach

Since fan content creation (such as SPvP/livestreams etc) is such a key part of game awareness and community participation I’m wondering does Arenanet have a position on youtube’s content ID system and how content producers should go about resolving any content flagged up.

Note this isn’t a demand, calling out or anything like that just a player asking a question about an area of concern

it’s cheaper to buy the gems, convert to gold.then create your own storage guild and then convert the gold into influence to create guild banks.

Vaugh.7193:

Its allready “implented”.

On this website, follow these steps: Community -> Leaderboards -> Achivements -> Filter by -> Guild -> Select a guild -> [YOUR GUILD]

Hovering your members AP will show the date when they got thier last AP.

You have to be logged in to do this.

It’s not the same thing. Just because people don’t earn AP doesn’t mean to say they have not logged in or done productive stuff towards the guild.

A better suggestion would be to allow players to participate and see all the guild chats of the guild they belong to.

Mutl-guilding is a nice ideal, but remains practically pointless as in effect all you are doing is leaving one guild and joining another. You have no idea what is going on in the guild’s you don’t represent and so have no opportunity to participate.

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

The problem is that none of you doomsayers have any context. There are currently no publicly viewable server stats for GW2, so we have no idea exactly how many people are or aren’t playing this game. Without that information making assumptions about the health of the game when a random new game is released is tantamount to the logical fallacy known as cognitive bias in the form of overgeneralization. And you really shouldn’t do that in a reasoned discussion.

Yup you are quite correct. The only metric we can reliably go on is the quarterly NCsoft revenue figures which if I remember rightly show a quarter on quarter decline of about 15% :/

Not enough to hit the panic button just yet, but I’d be concerned if I were in charge.

A bump to say all are welcome to come for this and subsequent Sunday’s runs.

In keeping with the time of year it’s time to spread some good news to all men and all that With that in mind my guild, DVDF think it’s time to celebrate and remember those people who have done some amazing and noteworthy things for others in GW2.

We have 4 prizes to give away, first prize of 50g, second of 25 and two of 12.5g each.

All you need to do is nominate someone else and tell us (in this thread) what acts of kindness they performed that are particularly noteworthy and should be rewarded.

My guild will then judge the entries, and choose the winners. The contest is open to everyone regardless of the region or server.

Closing date for entries is Christmas day and contest winners will be announced in the new year.

Have fun

Shan

Grenchie small print

Our decision is final, and we withhold the right to not award a prize to a winner and give it to someone else if their entry is found to be false

This contest is not open to members or ex members of DVDF, we have our own contest

same here. hardly anyone doing the tower now and really cba to keep dying my way to the top.

I know bugs can be expected, but to have so many bugs in every single LS is pretty shocking QA imho.

Same bug here. Guess we’re too far along in the LS cycle to get it fixed, or maybe it’s Anet’s way of increasing the number of players doing the tower

It’s an inevitable consequence of their decision to have servers for PvE and not implement a district/underflow system

durend.6237:

Mesmers that use feedback….. when there aren’t projectiles to be reflected.

In all fairness, feedback can be used to put chaos armor around the melee group as it combo’s with blast or leap finisher. So maybe the mes is trying to buff the group rather than kill the mob.

If you have access to a friend with GW2 you can copy their GW2 directory onto a USB stick (32gb or more) and then copy it into your smaller installation. The game will then sort itself out and you wont need to download it all.

Vayne.8563:

While this is not completely congruent, I can remember decisions made about titles in Guild Wars 1 that received much the same reception.

Defender of Ascalon title was once only accomplishable by death leveling. Anyone who did this (and it was mind-numbingly boring), did it because they wanted a title that required a huge amount of work. Now anyone can get it over time by doing the dailies in Pre every day which takes a few minutes.

For the Survivor title, it use to be that people would have to survive on a single character, and get all the experience on that character. If that character even died a single time, your title track was broken and you had to get it on a different character. No more. Now even if you die on a character, you can still get the survivor title.

The drunkard title track was changed so that you could continuously consume alcohol instead of having to wait and time it, making the title track many times easier.

These grinds took a tremendous amount of time, and the titles earned by them became almost meaningless after those changes took effect. No one would ever know that my Survivor was a Survivor, for example, without doing the Kilroy Stonekin over and over with no chance of dying.

The 80th level fractals were more rewarding loot wise than anything I’ve listed above BY FAR. They also confer no title. There was no title track for this. People made their own goals and should be satisfied that they reached those goals, but within the context of the game, it’s a number that goes up on a dungeon that no one can see except for the four guys going with you. It’s meaningless in the context of the broader game.

Does it suck? Probably? Is it as kittenome people are making out?

People felt just the same way when titles they killed themselves to get were made meaningless.

Difference was, people’s survivor, drunkard, etc wasn’t bumped down to the previous tier just because a new way was implemented if doing it. Sure it became easier to get, but then everything in an MMO does over time.

The issue’s is around people’s perception of how they have been treated. Which is actually pretty important when it comes to customer retention and money spent in the gem store.

A probably more pertinent set of questions would be
If you have had your fractal level reset, how likely are you to redo them?
Has this decision improved, degraded or given no chance your view of Arenanet
How likely has this incident made you want to buy items from the gem store or support Arenanet in the future.

I’m struggling to think of an instance in an MMO where player progress has been reset on purpose outside of bugs or the result of an exploit. Personally, I always thought it one of the big No No’s of online gaming.

It’s user/customer perception that is just as important as the facts and on this aspect the level reset seems a very bad move.

A probably better solution would be to add a one off title track that gives people who were reset something to show for their efforts.

They were probably there to see what makes them bug out so they can fix it. Back in GW1 I had teamed with a couple of devs a few times to try to work out what was glitching out. It probably means the bugs are high up on the list to be fixed.

BobbyStein.2315:

Jaken.6801:

I hope we can get a more through discussion about the matter after the arc is finished. You are in the process of learning and i am courious about what you learned, which ideas you had had to be revised and what your overall vision was against how it ended up.

Yeah, we’re learning a lot about integrating story with gameplay with the two-week Living World release cadence. It’s exposing issues with our writing process, presentation, and development methods that we’re working on improving with each release.

I’ve been formulating a LW season postmortem in my head that I am looking forward to sharing internally first, and then one day discussing publicly if I’m given the opportunity.

Just a quick, short idea. Have you considered opening out the writing/plotting to the fans as a sort of contest. The winner get’s their idea incorporated into the LW. It’d be a great way of connecting the fans with the developers and getting some great buy in from the community.

I realize it might clash with some ideas you have on the go, but you can always set limits and rules as to what is acceptable (for example, no Shatterer Vs Jormag battle godzilla style in LA)

A slight diversion, but still relevant I feel is the design of most of the LS content in terms of difficulty as time goes on. For example. The Labyrinth. Easy as pie early on when zergs were aplenty, now practically deserted so the LS achiv’s for the meta are practically impossible.

In ToN we’ll see the same. Unless you get the stuff done within the first few days the content will become harder and harder as people just don’t bother coming back once they are done. When the zergs dry up it’ll become harder and harder to reach the top thus leaving late comers (I.e those who didn’t get it done in a few days) effectively stranded.

Basically the LS is designed to create and maintain ‘locust’ style gameplay and behavior. Something which just can’t be good for the longevity of the game, nor well-being of the community.

I realize it’s player driven behavior, but as designers the content put in place goes a long way to govern that behavior. I.e
1: Don’t rely on zerg sized groups of people to do content. Zergs <> community.
2: Gradually roll out the achiv’s over the course of the 2 weeks, so as to encourage players to keep coming back
3. Make the scaling better with smaller numbers of players.
4. Encourage co-operation not mindless zerging. For example, in ToN barely anyone stops to res, everyone runs in a lemming rush to the top. Provide waypoints and checkpoints such that people can easily get back to where they were rather than being penalized heavily.

Basically, think about the whole player experience from the birth of the LS chapter to the end not just in game play but it’s knock on effects in the medium and longer term

Nope :/ They stopped portal working up there. The meanies

Stars.2179:

ArenaNet doesn’t want to force people to choose one group of friends over the other, hence the multi guilds and representation system. There are guilds that allow members to represent if they choose, there are guilds that don’t. The guilds make their own choice. Some will flourish, some wither and die off. If a guild dies, the fault lies at the leadership that can’t keep the guild, not at ArenaNet.

Actually, they only got the system half right. It’s great you don’t need to choose one friends guild above the other. But in effect you do.

When you represent one guild, you can’t then see the chat of the other guilds you’re not representing. You have no idea what’s going on in the non represented guild, have no opportunity to join in or contribute to that group of friends community at all.

Probably the closest analogy to how guilds are seen by a lot of people in GW2 is that they are like facebook groups. You join the ones that suit your purposes at any one time. That’s all well and good IF the tools existed to make it work. They don’t

At the moment, it’s like kicking one set of friends out of your house as soon as another set turn up.

As implemented, multi-guilding is simply having the same effect as being able to leave one guild and rejoin it without needing to ask for an invite. Basically, it’s pointless and counter to the goals Anet so laudably set.

Hi

Every Sunday at around 16:00 GMT/UTC we have been opening up our guild missions to anyone who needs them.

If you want to be able to take part in puzzles or challenges then please drop me a PM for a guest invite.

We do, do bounties and rushes earlier (at around 15:30 GMT/UTC) so if you have not done those either you are welcome too.

The only things we ask is that you’re not crude or crass in guild chat and that you don’t kick the missions off until we are ready (don’t touch the shiny)

If you’ve not done them before don’t worry as we’ll explain everything and make sure people won’t be left behind if at all possible.

PM me in game if you want to come along. We’re on Gandara, but other EU server denizens are welcome.

There’s still plenty of time left, and besides some stuff can take longer to get right than initially expected, there might be game breaking hot fixes that divert resources away from promised areas and a whole load of reasons.

Personally, if I had a choice between getting it right or getting it on time I’d choose getting it right.

Just heard this from a friend of a friend who’s friends with a friend who works at Anet that you’ll need to complete the entire meta set of achievements within 24 hours else it’ll reset and you need to start again.

Just been round again with a new character and a new gadget, after a patch and after a reset. Still at 23/24. This is intensely irritating :/ IMHO don’t bother about fixing the bug, just add another Obelisk so we can be done with it.

There’s no motivation for the majority of players to care about successful or failed event areas. Failed events in Orr just mean it takes a little longer to get around the map. In order to care about event failure players need a carrot to chase after.

For example, the FoW/UW equivalent opening up based on freeing all the temples in Orr. E.g When all the temples are free, this elite area is accessible which is instanced, contains hard mobs and bosses and has materials which go towards crafting a pre-cursor.

Basically make it worth the players while, not just in drops but content to do the events. Otherwise they’ll just champ train farm.

Jski.6180:

. So in GW2 farming is more about team work where in other mmorpgs farming is more about composition.

I don’t see a lot of teamwork in the zerg’s I’ve been in. It’s more like everyone for themselves in a rush rush to tag the champ enough so you get loot. Woe betide you if you are slow or get downed.

Zergs here are in my experience the antithesis of team work.

A question to the Dev team if I may as it’s one thing i’ve always wondered and I think has a bearing on the discussion.

One thing I’ve noticed is that you have about 5 days from release to get all the achievements done and then it becomes increasingly more difficult to get them as people’s interest seems to wane or they move onto another living story/part of the game.

Are you looking into how this can be rectified? or is it a user perception thing and the difficulty of completing the LW achievements doesn’t increase over time?

Better way would be to provide more points than you actually need. As for the busy UI, you’ll notice if you drill down into the achievement there’s a whole new pane on which to show info. E.g instead of
Tier 1 5 points
Tier 2 5 points

Show
Kessex hills 4/4 2pts
Mount Maelstrom 3/4 3pts
Gandarran fields 3/3 1 pt

etc

No need to clutter up the main UI at all, just use whats already there better

With the populations of Pve and WvW linked you’ll always get an imbalance as some pve servers are bound to be more popular than others. You can put in game mechanics to try and get around the issues, but so long as that link is in place the imbalance will remain.

The scales will always be tipped in favor of the more popular PvE server.

The answer is I believe is to separate the PvE server you play on with the WvW server you WvW on. This allows the population caps on each WvW server to be directly managed without impacting on PvE caps, as well as providing immense benefits to the wider game. For example.

Multi-region play: The reason why we can’t transfer servers at will isn’t technical but because of the impact to WvW. Take away that reason and we can transfer PvE servers at will, enabling us to finally play with our friends in other regions. Just like we could at launch, but without the impact to WvW.

Of course, the current server transfer restrictions would be in place for your WvW sever of choice. I.e you can move wherever you like in PvE, but you cant move WvW .

Protection from server merges: At some point in time, server merges are inevitable. Separating the WvW servers you play on shields WvW from PvE server merges.

Guild buffs: At the moment, change server and you lose all your guilds buffs, influence, bank and missions. The reason for this is WvW. Split off WvW servers and the need for this restriction goes away, thus allowing for true cross server, cross region guilds again.

How would you control population caps on the WvW servers? Well in the same way as you control population on the PvE ones, except this time you know the cap is directly going to affect the WvW numbers making it easier to manage.

Queue times will self-regulate, as people will move WvW servers to ones with a shorter queue and unlike now it won’t cost them the ability to be in their guilds, or play with their friends. In short it’ll make queues easier to manage and the adverse impact on the player is reduced.

Here’s how it could work.

Create a new field on an account, lets call it ‘loyalty’ On logging in after the patch you are asked to choose a WvW server you are loyal to. This loyalty field would not change even if you moved servers.

If you change to another server and its not your loyal one you cant enter WvW or indeed see the map.

If you want to change loyalty that will cost you gems, and have the same restrictions as now.

In short, in any comparison check within the code you are making to see if a player can WvW change that comparison to the loyalty field rather than server choice field.

As for the nodes and the like if you are not on your loyal server have a short message pop up saying “you can only loot this on your loyal server” Thus stopping the economy effects. Now sure you wont be able to gather or loot world event chests but that’s a tiny sacrifice compared to not being able to at all

Server pride is maintained by use of the loyalty mechanic so that’s unaffected. As is spying as it’s possible to have people on different servers in the same guild right now, so this suggestion would change nothing.

In this way we don’t need to redesign the network, servers or routing. We use whatever is in place and working now.

As I said above, not only would this help the PvE community come together, it would solve the fundamental population issues with WvW

Or just add more Obelisks than you need to complete..

They renamed GMT to UTC to keep people happy who didn’t want Greenwich at the center of things and thought it all way too colonial :p

In all seriousness, when they do announce event times it should also have GMT/UTC mentioned just for ease of translation for people in other countries.

Since the entire world’s timezones use GMT as a basis, seems reasonable GW2 should do the same

Stuck on 23/24 too. There was one node I had to break off transcribing with as 3 krait spawned on top of me. I’ve been round each zone 3 times, including the new Dulfy map so I know I didn’t miss any. Even went there on an alt.

Since there seem to be a number of people with the issue(and probably more being unreported) just hot patch a couple more obelisks in to allow those stuck to complete it and the next time add more items in than is required.

It’s so annoying. I was commanding a DPS group in Teq today and got suppressed so quickly it made it almost useless..

There’s only so many ways you can spell Stack, restack, cleanse west, Defend west battery etc etc, especially when in the middle of a zerg killing Teq, fingers and risen mobs.

Hmm.. The TV show comparison is an interesting one.

TV show’s I would aspire the LW to be like:
Breaking Bad
The Wire
West Wing

What it’s currently like
Power rangers
Looney Tunes
Animaniacs

Imho the order was the wrong way around, probably driven by the 2 week cadence thing.

What we should have got was all the build up stuff for this 2 weeks while halloween was on. Then this content and the one after combined in 2 weeks time. This patch feels like it’s only half done, which while ok from an LS story does leave a meh taste in the players mouth which is something you really don’t want to do.

Just a quick question. is this the only topic for collaborative discussion or are we getting other ones for the other hot topics (e.g ascended gear, guild systems etc)?

The main issues I have with the LS are as follows

1. No build up to either antagonists or new environment. It’s all pouf it’s suddenly there. This breaks the immersion of the player, making it easy to just see the LS as a checklist.

Potential fix: Use DE’s to set the scene some weeks before the LS goes live. I.e use the game engine and NPC’s to drive the back story.

2. 2 week Cadence is too short. This makes every LS feel like a rush with a time limit, thus suspending normal gameplay for most players. For example. the hourly invasions seemed like a day job with barely any downtime due to the nature of the achievements.

Potential fix: Slow down on the actual LS events, but use the 2 week cadence to introduce mystery and then tie up loose ends of the previous LS. I.e
2 weeks before. Introduce DE’s and back story for LS, introduce LS, 2 Weeks after wrap up LS with more DE’s and back story.

Since LS’s overlap it’s possible to have the player have several LS’s on the go and each LS would last longer.

3. LS rewards and achievements. Currently it seems like LS rewards are yet another clutter inducing backback plus some AP’s. Again, this leads to gaming by checklist which diverts attention away from the LS being told.

Potential fix: Revamp reward to stuff players will actually use. E.g a token after which a set amount can be traded for an ascend weapon. Make rewards less of ‘open 100 presents’

4. playerbase expansion. Unlike and expansion, currently the LS does very little to entice new players to the game nor old ones back again. IMHO it’s a life support drip, keeping the status quo. I.e the game would seem to be on a slow spiral of inactivity, esp with new AAA MMO’s out next year.

Potential fix: Slow down the cadence, divert the resources to a full blown expansion

5. Overflow and server systems. This causes player fragmentation and frustration when they cannot play with their friends or complete the content (witness the Teq feedback). It also breeds server bigotry, splinters the community and fractures guilds.

Potential fix: Separate people’s WvW server choice from the PvE servers they play on. Keep transfer restrictions in place for WvW server choice, but allow world wide, free and unlimited transfers for PvE.

Just a bump. These are still going on, on a weekly basis Time and place is unchanged

Drax, I was being semi serious. Regarding Scarlet. I’m kinda ambivalent about it. Like most people I just tend to look at the achievements as a to do checklist and get on with it.

It don’t want to, I want to be engaged in the story, want to feel like scarlet is a real threat and a priority way above that of the dragons but… I just don’t.

She’s like a whack a mole villain, one of those characters who emerges from nowhere and goes bwo-ha-ha before skulking away. I think it’s too late for scarlet now.

We need a proper build up, use the DE’s to set the scene before suddenly pouf’ing new stuff in the map. While I like that the new LS was dropped in before hand it could have been so much more.

E.g More DE’s with krait taking captives, stopping krait or whoever chopping down the woods. DE’s to help majory and Kassmeer investigate etc etc. Use the game engine to set the scenes, not external stories or suddenly appearing content.

The way to judge popularity is to have 3 bosses in 3 identical instances. They all drop the same loot, have identical mechanics and you can only kill one, once a day. The bosses are:
1. Traherene
2. Scarlet
3. A new boss we’ve never heard of

:)

Looking at LA chat, and the sorts of guild tags I see around I do wonder if it’s not the other way around..

Personally, I hate skipping. It’s a lazy reward centric approach to lazy design. Up the trash rewards, and make it so trash mobs don’t break aggro once roused.

If this is your first character don’t rush. Enjoy the game, explore and clear the zones. If you really must rush then the mad kings labyrinth(entered from the doors in queensdale) will give you huge amounts of XP if you run with the zerg, It’s boring, but very fast XP

Lonesamurai.4852:

Guilds are massively important, BUT in GW2, unless you’re in a really big busy guild, the GW2 guild system doesn’t work, people are stuck on different servers and theres no way for Euro and US guildies to play together

Also people can’t see the guild chats of guilds they are currently not repping thus making the quiet guild chat issue even more apparent. The multi-guild system should be a great boon, but in effect it’s like leaving one guild and joining another at will and as such is mostly useless.

Didn’t say VC needed to be added to the game, and you’ll notice I said some not all players . If someone in my guild doesn’t want to use VC because they want to protect their identity/gender that’s fine I’m not going to make them feel uncomfortable. We’ll make do.

Separate channels aren’t really the answer. They split you off from the main ebb and flow of guild chatter while you are in them. But anyway..

My point is, the combat system doesn’t lend itself to chatting in party or in guild. Which I consider to be one of the significant factors in why people see a quiet guild chat. Ofc reasons like people having to work, families etc account for an ebb and flow too just that the above is an additional reason people might not immediately think of

I’m not sure why people resist VC either. But it does beg the question as to the adequacy of the in game chat system if people need to resort to using a third party program just to chat to guildies when playing the game.

For content, sure VC is superior. But it also has issues such as not protecting people ‘s privacy as much as text chat (for example some women are loathe to use VC due to being hit on, people’s behavior changing, not being taken seriously as players etc).

There’s also chat segregation issues to consider. While i’m in a dungeon I just want to focus on what i’m doing, not listen to guildies chatting about this and that. With text chat I can just scroll up and see what’s been going on.

Not being able to chat in party or guild is a symptom of the combat system, which is why i’m convinced a quiet guild chat means more active players, not necessarily less active ones

It’s up to us, the players to realize this and adjust our expectations

Supposedly it’s to do with our characters data being held in two separate data centres and due to the inherent latency in the networks the gaming experience would be compromised if they were allowed to cross over.

Therefore Anet have decreed, that to protect us from bad lag they won’t allow cross region anything.

However, there are some logic issues with this reason:
1. If latency cross region was so bad, how come players are allowed to play on different regions than their own
2. How come we’re allowed to transfer servers cross region?
3. Many players, play cross region without their experience being adversely affected.
4. Isn’t it down to the individual to decide what is acceptable and what is not?

There have been many suggestions as to how to resolve the issue. Including separating your WvW server choice from the pve server you play on, thus allowing you to transfer wherever for free (like we could in early launch) while keeping the restrictions for WvW in place.