Guild Wars 2

Ok, first, thanks Fay for your help about MW’s damage. So from your values, one would expect a full MW to hit about 8k without modifiers, so 13k with 14 vuln + anguish. Assuming your values for condition damage and 4s confusion, 6s torment, 1 attack/s, we get 12.5k. Since we’re unlikely to use a GS, we won’t build up vuln as much, so this is close to the highest we’ll get.

From this, we see that CoF is as powerful, but can get more if the enemy is a spammer (I think in general 1 attack/s is in the low range) and much less if the enemy has condi cleanse. If the enemy has some toughness (which is not so rare in WvW), MW will get less potent.

Also, the 4 shatters do some decent damage in condi build while MW is the only one in power build. On the other hand, power builds have more source of damage than just shatters.

I think in the case of garland, the key is that guards don’t have condi removal, have a rather high armor (but attack less), and most importantly, have too much HP to be bursted down by one MW. Power shatter mesmer becomes less efficient after the first shatter while condi can hold a bit better in the long run.

So garland: your experience may be very different against actual players.

Simple question: what is the formula for mind wrack damage? It seems to depend on weapon strength and power just like a weapon skill. If this is the case, what is the coefficient for each skill. I tried to use the wiki but it is not crystal clear to me and what I understood does not seem to match the in-game values.

Ok, sorry for my mistake. I will be honest, I haven’t played power-shatter very much. I used to (try to) play lockdown and now I play condi shatter. So I haven’t experienced the actual damage of MW, I was basing my comment on calculations but wiki is not very clear on how to compute MW damage. I am trying to find the right numbers in the game directly.

I do not know how you get that or maybe I’m completely missing how mind wrack works. MW damage is not linear. So the first clone + IP does high damage, but 3+IP is barely better. On the other hand, CoF is linear and hits up to 12 confusion (4 + 4 from minor +4 from blind) and 4 torment which is painful.

To be fair, cry of frustration hits way harder in condi build than mind wrack in zerker even if the enemy is not spamming skills all the time.

It’s not amazing, considering the cooldown (i.e. unlikely to get a second volley). It would be the double with duelist’s discipline + cool down reduced for all interruptions, which are still fairly frequent (since I assume to get the 5 bleeds, you use phantasmal fury, else I am more around 4)

I am currently running a condi shatter build with pistol, but I’m really looking forward for the fix of duelist’s discipline… Currently even in rabid, the precision is too low to see many bleeds.

How much does Mallyx add? Is it 15% of all attributes (so DPS wise power + crit chance and crit damage) or only “internal” (some excluding might) or only base attribute? The first one would be more than 30% DPS increase but at a lower upkeep cost.

I think it is hard to provide a DPS number-equivalent for a non-offensive support. The 150 ferocity are definitely nice, that’s a bit less than 10% added damage to your party. Now to be fair, ranger brings 150 precision and 7.5% increased damage with spirits and is still not very much used in dungeon. The revenant brings might mostly for himself, so its main role would be vulnerability, which is not really unique.

In terms of defensive support, healing is currently not so useful, the invuln from Jalis is on too long cast time, the projectile barrier is nice but somewhat small and reflect is better. Currently, with its rather low DPS, I don’t quite see revenant as such a useful addition to a party.

Now numbers are not final, Glint may be an offensive support legend, so the future may be brighter than it currently seems.

And most importantly, “challenging group content”…

I did not include the upkeep (I thought I mentioned it but apparently not) but I just looked at Shiro (it’s morning for me, I’m too lazy to do more) and the added cost of all utilities + elite was less than 150 so less than 30s. So when I said all utilities I actually meant “of one legend”. The legend swap goes back to 50 which can be nice if you just ran out of energy with your previous legend.
The upkeep just makes things too complicated since it depends how long you think you should keep it to be worth of a normal utility.

As I said, I think the only reasonable thing is to wait to see how the class perform. Most videos I saw of revenant were just spamming utilities more than any other class would allow. I myself had the problem I never used (except the paved road of Jalis) them but that is because I did not play enough to see their use, I got bored too fast

@Knox
Thanks for the correction. I should really look at cast time of skills and not trust tooltips…

I guess the 1000 armor is for a PvP/WvW enemy without added toughness? I never actually asked myself that but what is the average armor of a PvE enemy? I used 2200 because it is the armor of a medium-armor golem :p

I didn’t realize the cast time was so long for sword 3. I should have looked more at cast time before trying to make a DPS estimate :p. Then this is fairly lower DPS than expected.

Sorry for the missing info on AA, I actually computed them but forgot to write them. I didn’t realize the 2nd hit did hit twice though. Ok, so AA is about 10k DPS, and now we can use full quickness since there is nothing else to do so final DPS about 12.5 k ???

edit: it seems we agree Knox

@xarallei sword off-hand is more a defensive + CC weapon which can be very nice in PvP/WvW but not so useful in PvE I think (the block is always useful even in PvE of course)

If my coefficients are correct, sword mh is 2.15 for at least 1.75s while axe 4 is 1.65 for 0.5s. Axe 5 has also a higher global DPS because even in zerker, the torment hits quite high, but it takes more time to tick so won’t be worth it in short fights. For a single enemy, sword 3 is the highest DPS skill of sword.

You regenerate your full bar in 20s. In most cases, that means you can use all your utilities + elite in a row every 20-30s. That is quite good! One may argue that some of the utilities are “weaker” than usual utilities, but I am not so sure. So I don’t think the price should be lowered. And paying a small price in terms of weapon skill seems interesting to me, it is a bit more thinking than sometimes just spamming your DPS skills as soon as they are off-CD.

I did start a similar thread here and chose the same traits as you did.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/revenant/PvE-sword-Shiro-DPS/first

I don’t think sword off-hand has any interest damage-wise (the block can be useful). Axe seems like a better choice.

I think you are confused here… Hammer 2 is the skill which has highest damage if you’re far from the enemy. It does not teleport you and back (that is skill 3). The axe has a clearly higher DPS than the sword off-hand and the sword AA. Sword 5 has no peak damage + it is a pull which you don’t want to use in the middle of a fight.

Since I didn’t try to extract the skill cast time (and since the coefficients I gave may be wrong or in any case not definitive), I cannot give any definite answer, but right now, here is an estimate of revenant PvE DPS. By using hammer 2 to open from range, then axe 4 and 5 then sword 3 2 and AA, using 2 3 4 and 5 whenever they are available, I get an average DPS over a 30s fight of about 12.5k (zerk, scholar, force, night, devastation 1,6,7 ; corruption 3,6,8; invocation 8, 25 might, 25 vuln, fury, banners). I did not include the vampirism from healing and I assumed Swift Termination> Assassin’s Annihilation.

Now I did not include quickness either. And that becomes more interesting because then, one must decide quickness or non-AA skills. Since the AA is about 9k, the question is which skill gives more than 450 additional DPS/energy unit. Unrelenting assault does, axe 4 too, but not the others. So the best way to handle energy would be to remove 2 and 5 from the rotation and use quickness whenever possible.

PS: I realize the order of the traits differ in wiki and in game…
PS2: I am too lazy to estimate how much the quickness uptime would increased the DPS. If we were not using any skill but AA, then we would have a 50% quickness uptime meaning 25% increase DPS. Here it will be less because we use also 3 and 4.

I think it is difficult to make a satisfactory system of “energy” for both offensive skills and utilities. Games usually resort to a dual energy pool system to fix that. Here it is CD + energy, why not.

The use of energy for weapon skills explain why many have a rather low cooldown. Many complained that the energy ran out fast, but I had a very different feeling. Utilities are not meant to be spammed, for most classes, the CD are between 20 and 40s. I think we need more time playing to see how balanced this really is.

And let’s not forget Glint is coming soon. While she was a rather helping character, she was also a kitten dragon. Maybe she will bring in offensive support + another DPS weapon/set…

Well I guess being an asura is always a good strategy in PvP. I love my female norn, but in WvW, when trying to hide in towers, I feel like my size may not help :p

I definitely agree on that, the axe 4 has a high DPS and would probably need to be included in a DPS rotation and can be a good opening.
PS: here are the damage coefficients for the sword:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/revenant/Damage-coefficients-for-swords

No but I was wrong, so all attacks in the AA hit multiple enemies. It was just no clear in the tooltip.

For all theorycrafters around, I did try to extract the coefficients from the tooltips + the video (since he uses the hammer also which we know the coefficients). I THINK the coefficients are:
AA: 0.75 – 0.5 – 0.9
2: 0.85
3: 0.55 × 7
4: 0.75 (this one does not seem to be exactly like AA…)
5: 0.75

Happy they added weapon swap, sad they didn’t add legend-specific skills :p
Weapon swap was the easiest fix and it will do fine.

Ok, I did not see the 3 enemies in the description for the 1st AA (http://dulfy.net/2015/07/17/gw2-revenant-shiro-legend-and-sword-skills-livestream-notes/ ) and forgot about the projectile for the 2nd.

Exactly what I was going to say. I hope glint will bring more condi and a ranged condi-weapon.

It seems that the sword is primarily a single-target weapon. Only the third skill in the AA hits multiple target (3). Then, skills 2 and 3 are also 3 targets and to be honest, the cooldown is not too high, but still. We will have to see if for multiple targets (PvE) mace does not end up being better (although it is still limited to 3…).

I would really prioritize sword-focus over sword-sword because iWarden is AOE + the extra swiftness is so much welcome. But yes, when facing a single challenging foe (champion/elite or whatever) going to sword-sword is more efficient.

The good thing with having a low DPS class is that if your DPS gets even worse, it does not change much to the final outcome :p

Well torment in the idea that we punish players for playing, that is very similar to what confusion does and is a form of soft lockdown. Now the theme “torment” is indeed darker, and that’s probably why the revenant ends up having it (especially with Mallyx).

I am definitely using the staff, and I think it is a great weapon in the mesmer kitten nal. The scepter on the other hand while not bad feels like it could be improved condition-wise.

2) For PvP, the best way to start is not harassing with GS autos. When you want to play bursty, you want to surprise your opponent very fast with a burst.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/MirrorBlink-A-Secret-Recipe-for-Mesmer-Burst/first

Now, while people complain that mesmer burst damage is a bit too easy, it does not mean it is easy if you’re all new in the game. PvP is a very fast pace mode, and it is difficult to get into. The question is how familiar are you with deceptive evasion + shatter as a play style. If you are not, then try it in PvE. It is not very efficient in PvE, but it should be working enough to survive and get a grip over the fast paced it is. Then, in PvP, you may want to try condi shatter build with a rabid gear. It is more resilient and thus more forgiving while still having a shatter gameplay. Finally, if you move to pure damage bursty shatter, try to rehearse your opening burst on golems in PvP training, to make it as fast as possible. You should be able to kill the heavy golem is about 5s or less. A bursty mesmer is very weak after its opening burst (illusions and shatter on cooldown, low endurance) so you really want to make the best of it!

1) For leveling PvE, danger is most often about a group of enemies. So staff 3 is not such a great choice in this case. I think GS/sword-focus is the best combination as it is cleaving. When you’re on GS, don’t forget to use 5 to keep distance (GS is more effective at range + you take less damage).

I think this guide is a good one for new mesmers
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Guide-Kai-s-Complete-PvE-Compendium/first

I think some are (ok, I just love the idea 5). Weapon swap is a good fix for sure and it’s also the easiest. But I like the idea of having 5 skills per legend because it gives the high versatility the class was promised to have and makes it unique.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

You do know that there’s several gap closers on the revenant, right?

If you play staff + Ventari + Mallyx, the closest you have from a gap closer is staff 5 and it has long cool down and does not go very far.

Plus I made a comparison on another thread between mace and a warrior’s sword. They are very similar weapons in the way they are designed except that 1) sword does more damage 2) the sword leap has a longer range 3) sword has many cripples. I don’t know if torment was seen as a (very) soft CC to replace cripple, but it just does not work.

If we are looking for a cheap solution, I think plain simple weapon swap is the best solution. Sure I’d rather have a more unique and thematic way, but I mostly want a working and fun class. I did like the theme and animations of the revenant, it was just lacking efficiency and versatility. Efficiency is just a tweak of the numbers, weapon swap can fix the versatility.

The debate as already been well advanced here, with the initial post summarizing all suggested ideas.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/revenant/Only-class-that-cannot-change-skills-1-5/first

I absolutely agree. I would love the underwater to be reworked to reach its potential.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/The-future-of-underwater-combat/first

I am all for the “become the legend” idea ( https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/revenant/Suggestion-Legend-specific-1-5-skills/first ) but I don’t think it makes sense to add one more “energy bar”. Either you use the current energy (in which case you really have to rebalance the energy cost or just remove it from utilities) or you just allow it without energy cost but really as if it was another weapon set. In this case, those skills would be balanced with the normal weapon skills and not more powerful.

I have a similar suggestion but which I prefer ( :p ) which is instead of 1 new set of skill with a different range for each weapon, 1 set of skills for each legend not tied to weapon. F2 would then switch between your weapon skills and the current legend 1-5 skills in what I called “become the legend”.

suggestion 5 in
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/revenant/Only-class-that-cannot-change-skills-1-5/first
in more details in
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/revenant/Suggestion-Legend-specific-1-5-skills/first

That would really kill the class! I perfectly disagree with " I can’t imagine any stance other than Ventari wanting to use the staff". Jalis works best in melee range. The road is medium range, the rotation hammer is melee, the daunt pulls enemy to you… do you think using it with hammer makes sense? I don’t think so. Using it with staff is perfect because it is melee and adds healing to increase the tankiness. On the other hand, using Ventari with hammer is perfectly ok, since Ventari does not have any range preference. It is thus a good way to add resilience while using hammer + between hammer skill and tablet, one can keep high projectile deflection uptime.

Then for Mallyx, if the sword/sword is fast as they seem to imply, then the torment from traits may proc often enough to make it a viable hybrid condition weapon.

So to tie legend to its weapon is absolutely awful. I would love more flexibility, and while I don’t think weapon swap is the best way theme-wise, I think it would work BUT DON’T TIE IT TO THE LEGEND!!!

Or get a gap opener. Mesmer GS works well with range restriction, but it has cripple + gap opener.

But I still want to see my legend-specific skills

It is actually something I thought of. Very useful in PvE, not sure about PvP since a big part of the job is not necessarily dodge AOEs but just avoid being inside them. I don’t think it will be OP especially since they would probably adjust their HP somewhat to rebalance it.
On one hand, I don’t think Anet likes pet class/builds because they are brainless, but on the other hand, if you start to be in charge of their survival more than is currently possible, that makes it less brainless.

Quite true. The exception would be deathmatch, but deathmatch can be VERY punishing if you are not an organized team. I actually wonder why they don’t put a separate queue for it, like for stronghold… But that’s a digression.

My feeling is that build-wise, MM has been buffed nicely. So if the question is “still viable” I guess the answer may be “more than before although not optimal still”. My gf uses MM and that’s thanks to this build I manage to make her play (and enjoy) the game. It is an easy build to start with, you don’t worry too much about utilities and focus on 1-5. Then once you start playing better, get more familiar with your weapon skills etc… you can try more build variations and see what you prefer.

And as a beginner, you just run for 10 min, meet someone, get wrecked and repeat. WvW roaming is fun when you can sustain 1v1 better (or maybe on more crowded servers when you meet more than 1 enemy every 10 min).

I like the idea. I really think stability fits perfectly in the necro theme. I just wonder if everyone would not end up using this in PvP. Plague is already mostly used as a defensive tool in PvP, so this would probably just completely replace it.

What has changed with terrormancer which killed it?

While I completely agree with the comments made above about the build, I want to add that “practice mode” is surprisingly enough not such a great way to practice in my opinion. The teams are very disorganized, uneven, people leave and come at will etc… I had horrible time when I started there (as a mesmer ). Unranked arena is a better choice. The teaming should put you with people who are also beginners, but during a proper game, which is somewhat more organized and definitely more enjoyable. I don’t know if anyone has a different opinion on that, but that was my experience.

I think in general, a good advice before jumping into the mess of a PvP fight, try on a smaller scale. If you know someone in-game, try dueling. If you don’t, try to join a guild and find help from them.
Spectating some PvP maps can be useful also, though I think it usually goes too fast to be able to get what is going on when you’re not used to it (actually sometimes even after :p ). But really dueling is a very good way to learn your class and how to handle the enemy class.