Guild Wars 2

i got over 18k ap and im a total pro…n stuff… (more or less)
okay just interesting that i stopped playing for achievement points half a year ago… xDD
anyway back to topic NO it is definetly NOT a good indicator if the player is experienced or not
why not searching for at least “title dungeon master” if you are looking for experienced players… okay i got mine about 4months after release
(since there were a few bugged paths..>__<)
but i still dont know how to do speedrun here..and there just because im heavily focusing on pvp …
also second accounts my not have the 5k mark or something…
it just means the player has spent a lot of time within the game
which doesnt mean hes skilled
a "2k ap at least level 80 and champion title from pvp) that would mean he knows what his class is capable of…or at least one build and some mobility…

the time spent and achievent point gatherers however often are quite good jumping puzzlers (at least most of them) so i could possibly see the ap being used as a reference in the super adventure box..
(even if it is in most cases solo the easiest and ill do it dou with a good friend just awesome to find out which flower blows up and which rock jumps in your face )

in case of dungoen running..
from time to time i do take part in such a party i know my skills what they do i know the enemies perfectly.. but what i dont know is where i am supposed to drag them (sure just stacking with teammates is almost enver wrong ..but still)
well yeh i would probly just ask for full exotic lvl 80 and just start quicker than the guys who are lf 10k ap
in fact i did it quite oftne at cof instead of full berserker ping gear 6k ap min ..blablah.. id join with my mes a p1 group and were half way through eb4 they start..
this whole zerker meta to run dungeons quicker is just kitten if you take up to 10minutes to even start.. rly^^

another thing…: i hate guys who post lfg fractals 49 8k ap when they (they where two) have together not even 9k…. just wtf?!?^^

Morsus.5106:

In my opinion, getting a legendary should not:
1) Be locked behind farming/RNG.
2) Feel like a grind
3) Be impossible to accomplish

A legendary should:
1) Show that a player is skilled and have more bragging rights besides I have no life.
2) Take time, but not feel like you have to give up a normal life to achieve one.
3) Be obtainable, but not given freely.

well it should take some time but it should not contain grind?!?
at least a bit grind should be in there.. not THAT MUCH however..
and how would you do it?

getting the precursor for a few different possibilities
every 500th rank in wvw
every 42 ( ) ranks in pvp (from 39 onwards)
every 200 dungeon paths ran
every 300 fractals ran
maaaybe also at 20k achievement points?!?
these should be account bound automatically!!

and then u would need to do different things to craft the gifts for each legendary
but not like a grindy way because u dont want grind..
just 500 dungeon tokens… no crafting materials
(ill come to that later because ud need some other equally hard to aquire stuff)

i like the idea of the black moa mini
(i had so much fun same goes for the black moa ranger pet)
and the places u had to visit so like visit 15 for each legendary different places and do something there like for the sword some asuran laboratorys with electricity spark etc
(at least a event that is in the place or go to the end of that specific jp)

we could besides of crafting materials changing to palces you got to visit to aquire special account bound things like jormags claws teth
(which would be easy to get..xD)

and then also places to “learn things” where u can red books in with is standing what u need and why this weapon is epic
a book that describes the particle effect
a 1. book that describes where u can find the other books.. xDD

and you could surely look in the wiki or just dont read the books
(u wold still need to go to each book for each legendary and press f once)
however if you coose to read you get a reward that is not in gold or anything that u can wage…well i liked gw1… xDD
there are a lot of nice places in this gmae that are just empty caves or alike

and a lot more such things they COULD have done

however i highly doubt any of this will happen..

Ehecatl.9172:

On top of all the other issues with being a ranged fighter in this game that have already been mentioned, I think the biggest imbalance is the conquest type of spvp.

Ranged fighters are forced to fight on point or they lose the point. This means that, no matter what your build, you’re going to have to fight in melee in order to not give the enemy team an advantage. I mainly play a staff elementalist, and while I can do a great deal of damage by standing off point in team fights my limitations are always thrown in my face when it comes time to capture a point.

I see that warrior on the point about to capture it. I know that if I try to stop him from capturing the point I’ll have to fight him in his preferred range. The value of having a ranged weapon is completely negated by the fact I have to run into the warrior’s range in order to stop him from capturing the point both our teams need. At the same time my damage and passive defenses are significantly less than the warrior simply because I have the option to attack from a distance, even if that choice is being punished by game design.

So I do less damage overall, less passive defenses, and cannot kite unless I want to give up the point. Where is the advantage I get from choosing a ranged weapon again?

for example a sword pistol (psitolwhip) thief
bursted in mellee two -three times and is low life
either u run away out of fight (or to any other point) or you stand to the side of the point let your mates stand in the point while u fire with your shortbow which clearly does less dmg… but this wa u dont die..

the only place where i feel range is underrated is pve
just because the usual mobs dmg is a bit too low ai often crappy etc
but in wvw u need ranged aoe attacks ind pvp almost every build got 1 mellee and 1 ranged weapon

this is just like eles were when gw2 was still in the beta and newbs in the first few weeks like “i want to play a fire mage” u dont just play on one attunement u want to use all of the skills the frequently weapon swaps etc

jus because there is a class called ranger does not mean that he does only have ranged weapons (okay the axe which usually is mellee is ranged..) and the greatsword does way less dmg than the warriors greatsword but keep in mind that the ranger does also have a pet which deals dmg..

i was really suprised but yesterday i made almost 2g with pvp..
sure pve is waaaayy more efficient

with with the coming update frostgorge sound farming will be nerfed at least a bit
and pvp reward tracks will give u quite a bit i guess
aditional to the gold u already gain just by playing

but ..yeah buy them..^^

Zomaarwat.3912:

Better remove Capricorn

mhm… no need to argue about Capricorn with you just wait 4 days

i dont want to say stuff like Hugh didnt say it all but.. you will also get account bound levels trough ranking up
(i can only remember from 39 onwards 20k rankpoints each)
which is compared to the reward tracks nothing really xDD
but it adds up over the time..
by the way im currently rank 56 will be scaled up to 80
i will get all those chests inbetween for those rank ups but what im interested in are the transmutation charges you get for each rank
will i get the charges and then scaled rank up?
or will i get scaled up and then get 24 extra charges?!? xDD

edit: well im not really getting scaled up its just the ranks that get scaled down…

11. NO! I want to know every map that well that i can sa tranq or stillnees in 20secs
what if i jump down and it wont spawn…-.-
what if there are 3players with 2 games, 4 with 5games and 3 with 7 games? will they not be plaing together? that would increase the time you would need to wait a lot
also i think the maps are well designed and balanced alwas keep in mind that both sides can use the maps specific mechanic.. as long as it isnt too overwhelming 150 sure are a lot but you need to get to the lord through gates that can be seen as well as you hear when somethings hitting them and to kill the lord u need time time in which one team is not on the points.. or at least got less people on the points..

12. No. Too man thieves would cry up they cant be permastelath anymore
too many others would cry up they cant knock thieves that are almost perma stalth out of the point or even hit him
and without revealed debuff a thief could do way to often a first weapon stealth attack
how it is right now it is okay invisibility is neither over nor underpowered

13. This again makes hte game more complex (personally i like the general idea)
however what happens with celestial gear the whole idea is that your overall number is bigger since you have no fokus to spend on…
it would be harder to help newer players
“id prefer soldier”
is easier than
“xpoints in condi dmg to x points to power and …y to x and stuff..”
also i do WANT nr 3 soo badly this would make the game more complex sure still possible to bring both together but with the sstem pvp gear will be like from 15.4. on its realllly easy to make a build template out of it

14. I do like the idea but id rather put some of them in an instance with the later this year coming megaservers the pvp lobbies will also be fused together (i think) and ive already seen guilds guesting on millersound to do some gvg/wvw zerging practise with formation and stuff and on their server were a few guilds that already practiced with the golems… xD
i dont like the idea of Leaderboards for all this stuff
however an achievement or a title for some challenging yet not impossible task would be nice like dodge 50of the Kill shots of the npc in a row
or live 5 minutes against those two npcs

15. I doubt this will come this way the current problem is that all pvelers are just all zerker
your idea to most HP% dealt would mean cleris supporter etc will not rally
while zerkers will… -.-
the cap of how man can rally is alread on 5 (i guess pls correct me if im wrong)
however i dont know what will priorised id prefer the one who lived the longest will rally up or just leave it as it is
(as long as your enemies wont rally everythings fine so make sure your allies wont fall before enemies are down stayed all over the place )

16. So every seconds 4 lines of 300bleeding 600burning 400konfusion etc?
That might be helpfull however a bit toooooo extreme #spam

What about the information once you died what did how much dmg to you
(that already is in pvp ..also ad this in wvw would allow players to see what killed them what their build lacks of like condi removes and maybe even encourages players to build a similar build in smallscale)

even if some of them dont really fit in pvp discussions…
quite some interesting ideas

first of all i doubt thies is the right place to ask for a job …

1. I do really like the idea of unlocking all skins in the game after playing a ton pvp however i would do something to exclude skyhammer farmers or hotjoin in general from this thing
and keep the ranks at 80
make something like “legendary champion of the mists” for 10.000 Tournament wins
or something more complex like for 10k tournament wins u get some title and to get the legendary mist champion you do also need at least 1 legendary and some more pvp probly also some wvw stuff

rank points however should not be the way to go (i think)

2. I’d like this one waiting for this for quite some time especially since this isnt that difficult (i imagine)
im in quite a big guild and have to explain it sooo often that hotjoin is not really compettetive pvp… xD

3. The easier the builds get the easier it should bekome to make it happen so lets hope theyre already working on it (i loved it in gw1 it would me soo happy)

4. Not needed

5. A option that allowes you if enabled to see through allied clones would be nice it would also help newer players not to res the wrong one^^

6. I think this would force a rebalance of pretty much everything related to conditions so…meh on the other hand i have heard something about they want to remake condis anyway so that condi dmg would be a viable option against tequatl etc
if they will remake condis it is still questionable if their idea cooperates with yours so… without someone already working on it there are tooo many ifs to say anything clear

7. That would make stacking tons of different condis useless (condition overload)
so less variety in gameplay of a condi class
also it would be REAAALLLY complex to rate the different condis due to duration intensity (6bleeding for 12secs + 3bleeding for 5 for example) and condis from different enemies so they tick with different itnensity.
so even if anet would allow us such a thing
players would need HOURS to set all thing till they finally can play effectively.
i do like complexity but that is too much xD

8. I like the glass panels in skyhammer however skyhammer in soloq is a thing that i would probably remove

9. I like the idea because you could try out a new class without playingagainst the same experienced enemies without a handicap..
one could argue go hotjoin to test out a new class to learn it and once you are good enough you can go tournaments (why i doubt this will come)
but i like the general idea and would encourage players to switch classes fore frequently and ultimately try out some more things

10. Yesterday i won a soloq match with 3 thieves (i was ele… ) it was fun
as a part of soloq i want this to stay
it would work well with nr 9 but i like these awkward moments that you never get in teamq also if you need to wait till a heavy clas wants to play soloq (in your rating) it may take some time and even then he could be dps guard..
(which is fun and good but not very tanky… )

mhmh.. i kinda disagree with you
one of the most powerfull builds mace sword
on condis and confusion on interrupt
got 20 poits in the first line so this build got this trait in it and it makes it stronger

however i doubt it is nearly strong enough worth nerfing for

on the other hand
anet probly wont undo their nerf unless a huge amount of players will post that it sjust total bullkitten will break the game etc
(like we have seen with the rune of perplexity.. )

so we will need tolive with the nerf..
since it wasnt that strong it wont make some builds unplayable… either : ))

i got quite a lot of chras (i fact each class at least once at 80)
currently working on my 3. guard

a gem shop item that would allow pushing a class that you already have on 80 would be nice

since u will know how to play your class (most likely)

and it would keep the twinks out of wvw

you get upscaled yes
but they still are a problem since they die much quicker than the average lvl 80
and the enemies rally on them…

i do like most on your list
but even though i am pretty sure anet got their own list already..
however there will proble be a few points that they will add to it now..

there is just not enough time to add it to this page since it will hit in 10days

especially all your suggestions to make options to play the game this or that way sound promising ( and some of them easy to achieve as well )

anyway thanks for your effort
this made my day

lets just hope that some of these features will find their way into the game

Maze.1902:

Precision / Toughness / Vitality

Toughness / Vitality / Healing Power

yep precision as main rest minor thats what i would vote for too
but toguhness vit and healing might be a bit over the top.. xDD

we currently have not enough precision main stat combos so please bring
Precision / Toughness / Vitality

Kharr.5746:

bhagwad.4281:

Kharr.5746:

Getting to level 80 in PvE takes only a few days. That has not stopped people from continuing to play the game, and neither will getting to glory rank 80. It will still take as much time to get to glory rank 80 as it does to level 8 characters to level 80 in PvE (probably way longer). It’s a great move.

Ooh, bad example. PvE players have other ways of showing off time spent. Gold. Legendaries. Achievement points. Loot. Take away all that, I can assure you GW2 will be a desert. No one plays “just for fun” in an MMO.

So far ranks have been the only marker of our time spent in PvP. Taking that away is akin to confiscating everyone’s loot, legendaries and gold in PvE.

Uh, after the patch PvPers will be able to work toward legendaries, can make gold, dungeon loot from reward tracks, and various max level rewards from glory rank chests. Have you even looked at the blog posts or watched the Ready-Up episodes? GW2 youtube/twitch channel is your friend.

uh jeah youre right HELL YEAH

party everyone after 1.5years working for skins and ranks
we can finally build and do all that what pve lers could do … 1.5years already…
we can start building elgendarys while in pve and as soon as the updates hit also pve lers that start with pvp will walk around with legendarys…. great.. so we can look just like them once we have made enough money an stuff…-.-

if they dont give more than just the bathasar backpiece uniqe to pvp

pvp is going to die

we need a long term goal

like legendarys for pve were…

like these crazy titles for wvw

or.. like dragon rank right now in pvp is
if they really scale the pvp titles down as well and we got nothing from playing pvp other than pve loot …..

great : ( …

but hey we can build our legedarys….
now… we can start doing that..
when a TON of legendarys are out there …
awesome..^^

the equipped pvp stuff will be deleted as well as your complete pvp locker
but all those skins will be in your wardrobe
and if you want to look like be4 yo have to use a few transmutation charges pick the skins out of your wardrope and put them over your pve armour

if not equipped u might considder buiing rest of the armour

since most of my chras are still lvl 2 and not that good equipped but nicely equipped in pvp… >__>

anet could have gone against the hotjoin and skyhammer farmers
just give everyone for each tournament loss 1000rank points and for a tournament win 1337 rank points… okay or something along those lines of 2000 and keep the rank system or make it steps 45k each
but no they decided hotjoin players should berewarded as well..
thats the only sad thing i can see there

so we wont do much against it just accept it..

for the account @ Ken DeBoer

if you start new with the game and are fully pvp player.. never gone to pve then you still play so much that you can quite easily do these dungeon tracks when theyre active to get those skins

also
youre leveling yur pve charakter through pvp rank ups bejond.. i dont know what rank^^
so a fully pvp player will be able to do these pve story mode dungeons if he so chooses
but he doesnt even need to since the dungeon tracks constantly change so he can get those skins periodically as well
i mean sure if a pvp player starts with the game at the 10th day of … arah for example he will probly not be able to get the full 40/40 neither can he do the storymode
but a pve ler wh starts on the same day will (without help) not achieve a full set of arah in 4days…

new players constantly evolve their characters
both in pvp and in pve if they want or not^^
thats what anet wanted to do with this update
and i think they did a great job with it

and if u have played pvp for a long time you will get some tome of knowledges for level ups in pve
as well as chamion bags and if you complete a 40/40 dungeon track you have your gear to run every story dungeon you choose
the only problem i see is that pvp players cant get instantly to story dungeons they have to walk from starting zones to arah (extreme)

simply filling up the sea with sand is unfortunately not as simple as it sounds
so this will not be enough time to do it
(especially since they need to talk to everyone else in this company as it seems.. )

and if they would do such a thing then.. it would be amazing if theship and some other things would look likeabandoned for like 200years
really old wood and everythigns falling appart
then it woudl look like the cryal dessert

but that would mean even more work

however your idea is great

MAYBE (i hope so) they read this and think.. yeah that idea is not so bad
redesign the map and well see it in half a year redesigned
(id even like this quite alot sicne they took the map from us) no player played onit for ages… an then this old wrecked ship suddenly appears.. it would be nice

there would be many ways to fix that map
and since it ist even in solo q it isnt that big of a deal i feel..
mhmm anet seems to feel that way..

but i do like your idea!! : DD

i think as soon as the update hits the chests will just disappear

so the ebst thing would probly be opening them all and keeping that pvp stuff in your ivnentory .. it will isappear as well but this way u got a bunch of account bound dyes..^^
i mean sure you could salvage all those things…
if u have a lot of pvp salvaging kits left.. oterwise you have to buy them with glory..
what u have already spent all your glory for skins dyes and mre skins?
well thats unfortunate then delete very f—— KITTEN #%&§%#$ pvp thingy on its own with just a simple…bunch of klicks

but since the dyes are so expensive
it should be better than farming in frostgorge sound…

you sir just gave me a nice idea.. opening bags for a few hours… >__<

but yeah.. answer is simply they disappear^^

im 56 and i wont play that much pvp until update as well
just because ill farm pve gold to unlock stuff to buy skins etc
doing pvp now gives minor gold and a bi rank points what would only give me a bit pve levels….
doing pve i get more gold..
also testing some things even if a lot will change
once the update is there ill keep on playing pvp a lot because then i get reward tracks and feel a bit rewarded…

ofc if i want to play pvp i will do so or f a freind calls for a tpvp +1 or something alike

but other than that
i doubt ill have that much fun playing something that doesnt really rewards me at all..^^
and if my speculations are correct and the super adventure box opends tomorrow
ill have something to play around
during the time i have to wait for the reward tracks : DD

to answer your question
(even if some guys might hate me for posting this)

271.500 rank points till 38 then u will need 20.000 for each rank u got 825.000 more than that so you will get 41.25 levels more than 38 which means ull need 3/4 new level or 15.000 rank points to hit the dragon isntantly when the update will bring destruction and death .. or at least A FEW DRAGONS .. aw my god its goin to be soo many.. xDD
( pls dont hate me if its wrong… http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pvp_rank
if u want to you can correct me.. D : )

Allie Murdock.8152:

I’m just asking you guys to be open to it. If this goes out and it didn’t work out as we had planned, then we are open to change too.

Now, I won’t post for the rest of the weekend, but I had to get that off my chest. The movers are going to be here in 30 minutes so I need to go scramble to get things ready.

“We wants it, we needs it. Must have the precious. They stole it from us. Sneaky little hobbitses.”
ok so if it doesnt work out as you planned then please promise us that you try hard to bring back our precious jewels asap!

i think most of us complaining here are open for some changes
however some just seem quite drastic and the fact that you announce SO MANY changes all at once doesnt really help on top of that : D

i could also imagine that some dislike the fact of pvp being simplified to a point where it is just sad to make it even simplier since it is already so much easier than pve
i do like complexity like playing with a cooldown of 15seconds and a weapon swap of 5 (it would be nice if cooldowns would always be on the sigils)

(however sigill remake and cooldown not interfering with each other will bring a lot of these small changes and complexity like one weapon set fire + air on the other energy and bloodlust —-these combinations allow quite a lot actually)

well.. then i hope for the best..
and wish you the best

(btw thx for replying to this topic so quickly)

sorry idk but some maybe just a few ranks higher than u are or can ony be aquired in reward chests (rare)
however i want to know of some as well
that skull bone staff (srry dont know its name in english >_<)
was my favourite skin in gw1 and id love to give it to my nek..

the glyphic warhorn you dont need to bother getting it i thin kstill it will drop in pve almost everywhere so ull get it..^^

same goes for steel greatsword?!?
is that the greatsword you can craft via steel ? then it may also be easy to aquire later on

i will check if i have a few of these later

but it would be great if we could get some of those skins

yeah that /rank x liek zaishen rank in gw1 was soo nice

doing r6 because it looked so nice shiny golden a random bystander thinks heh im so much higher and troll him makes r7… >_< 30seconds later me doing r8

in short…
yeah please make /rank x

be4 reading this thread i was secretly hoping it will be announced at 4.4 since they seem to announce pvp related things EVERY friday and this observe mode is something a lot of people desire so much… : (

well all we can do is look forward for the day when Nabbo.2845 makes a lot of cookies… : D

mhm.. probly noone read it…

but i do know one in my friends list who is playing every day pvp and is past 70 however that is only one.. and he playes quite long time every day

however i wouldnt say he carried the rounds i teame dup with him..
(hes pretty good nevertheless)

i actually do like this change
ive done my dungeon master about a year ago
but i liked most of the story dungeons (obviously not arah guess why…^^)
but since ive played pvp i got most of the dungeon armours
so i dont need to do them
pve lers dont have these armour skins
if they want them they need to do dungeons or dungeon story then change to dungeon track

if a mainly pvp player havnt done dungeons
he will most likely have the armours..

however a mainly pve player will probly have the dungeons and need to do them again

so this is a update that does NOT prefer pve players

also this is a nice way to get more characters into story modes so more guys can open dungeons

and i will not start with the balthasar backpice the pvp only stuff
because u can get that too easy
i much rather go and make the krytan area and the following ones since there are some kind of uniqe skins
and the last track uniqe skin might be QUITE a bit rarer than the only pvp thing since even pve lers can get that only pvp thing within a week…
well.. thats just my guess

i had this idea as well the only problem i see there is that people who have farmed in skyhammer weill be kinda up there

they should take some rank points away and give points for played tournaments to reward skill not time

however rank 80 for everyone and then continuing counting upwards to see who have played a TON of pvp instead of just a lot
is better than everyone at 80

and what goes for astetics if the add titles that u can get every 10 or 20levels
which are easy to make

but nice to showoff itd be nice as well

or another soloution to give titles for every 250 tournament wins

or somethign like a winstreak achievement
3tournament wins in a row will give you 1 winstreak
with 5 winstreaks a title then 25 then 50 then in steps of 50

a lot of ways to encourage tournament and skilled palying over playing a lot

anyway overall hte update will be nice.. : D

Raunchy.6891:

Mrbig.8019:

The issue is not with thieves.

The issue is with engies that will magnet pull -> pry bar you for 10 stacks of confusion, + pistol 3 + concussion bomb in less than 2 secs, potentially 19 stacks of confusion.

Add this to big ole bomb, shield 4-5, flamethrower and all the kitten. even without flamethrower engi has so many interrupts it’s not even funny.

Or interrupt condi mesmers ( even rampagers Sword/pistol-Staff).

God, it’s going to be ridicolous.

I agree with the part about Engineers, but please read the changes. It has a 25sec icd, so the max stacks the engi can get is 13. Don’t get me wrong, that’s a lot which can be hard to deal with, but saving your cleanse for something like that seems smart.

As far as condi mesmer goes, that’s been a joke for a long time. The only good condi spec that has come along for mesmer has been PU, and it’s not that great for decap or capturing. Power builds will still hold as better builds, with this in the mix just to fool around with.

saving comdi remove for that peek..
okay what if the enineer just builds up a bit confusion and waits till u cleanse tp then apply the rest?
or for other clases hat doesnot have a full condi cleanse
confusion bleeding burning chill poison might use sticky bomb as well…
if the engineer just variates hi gameplay the slightest u cant do much against him

also that 25second icd is still lower than most full condi cleanses
so if the fight lasts for 30secs .. its probly over then..

if they dont add quite effective anti condi runes / sigils this is most likely going to chynge quite a lot…

i highly doubt that they restricted hte number of skins you can get via pvp
on the one hand youll not only get skins but items that u cna salvage wear and.. ofc wil lalso give you the thigns skins
but there will be champion lootbags and the krytanian lootpath for example will have in its last slot something u can choose that can drop ONLY in kryta
on the way to that 40/40 chest you will get some other sthings than can drop there as

on the other hand there are less sets you can choose fro mthan how it was be4 if u wanted something (if your ran kwas high enough) you could simply craft it
now there are a lot of random drops o nthe way to the chests where u can choose

since eternal light is crafted i nthe mystic forge it cant drop out of lootbags
thus i think u wont be able to get this particular skin from pvp soon

but i much rather think that the overall pool of skins you can get via random dropps from pvp will be increased for quite a bit

even if the really nice skins…. : D

the only thing i can see in long term goal pvp are titles
in gw2 titles were bound to the ranks
now if they dont change how to get the titles you will still need a LOT of pvp to get the higher titles

that whole system .. could…will probly.. work somehow

however i dont just skip phoenix i do also skip shark
and i highly doubt that i find it rewarding to get the dragon given without even stomped once with a shark… >_<

btw i like how anet says stuff like “a small group of rank 80’s”
seriously i do really think that we will see more dragons than we see sharks right now..
so it really is nothing special..
fortunately i already have my guild shield finisher and my quaggan finisher : D