Guild Wars 2

Saiyan.1704:

I haven’t even entered WvW and theory crafted gear so.. i have no idea how that differs from TPvP! From tpvp experience, DS are hands down unkillable.

I will say that Eles have the biggest skill gaps in the game now, next to Thieves. There are more “decent” Ele players than there are “pro” ones and the difference between the two are very noticeable.

I was talking with PvP numbers and gear, hence the very specific armor/HP values (in WvW, it could be anything because of mix-and-match gear). I still haven’t had major issues with them besides them being somewhat slower kills than other professions, but I think that the burn build most people are running currently is more heavily hard-countered by Eles than the one I use. Inner Fire is awful against DS Eles, as is the Radiant Power minor, so you lose a ton of your bonus crit chance from the start and need to rely on the Fury you can get from Smiter’s Boon, JI (which you don’t want to waste), and CoP (which you also wouldn’t want to use just for Fury). Not being able to crit consistently means less access to Radiant Fire, so it’s harder to spike down their HP on demand with Torch 4, and if you’re running any crit sigils, they’re not going to be proccing, either. Having RHS with Sword for procs is a significantly better option here.

Scepter over Sword means damage from autoattacks is much less consistent because of how easily the orbs are kited, forcing you to rely on burst combos with 2,3, and 4, or slow channeled damage from 5 every 12 seconds. Purging Flames can also frequently be a dead utility against them, and it gives a huge telegraph for any type of burst you’re going to attempt. I run with Smite Condition instead, which frequently applies Fury to further solidify your crit chance, gives better sustain to help you keep up with the Ele, and can take a decent chunk out of their HP if you crit and remove burning/bleeding.

Not saying that the popular burn build is a worse build overall because of these things, but I think that DS Eles in particular counter it in a lot of ways that aren’t as problematic for other styles of burn Guardian, and the matchup doesn’t have to be so one-sided.

Saiyan.1704:

Any ele who actually knows how to play will kite the guardian the momen the gets on gs.

GS dmg doesn’t compare to Ele’s fire attunement damage, you’ll lose that battle. That’s the only time the Ele will engage the guardian when he’s in GS.

Unfortunately, there’s no way to counterplay the DS Ele. Your best bet is to ww + bb or Zealot’s Fire x2 with crit effects… and JI/PU the moment he’s under 10%… but the ele will still heal up the moment he’s below that threshhold. There’s no way to counter them effectively.

I dunno, I’ve had decent success against them on a burn build with the Sword autoattack and Air/Fire sigils. You only need to do 1,725 damage to a Cele Ele with 17,245 HP to put them below 90%. A Cele build has 2448 armor normally and 2598 when traited for extra armor while attuned to Earth, and the Sword auto chain can deal more damage than 1,725 damage to them in one cycle even without landing any critical hits (500-600 non-crit damage on the first two hits, 900-1100 total on the third). When you’re actually landing crits and proccing sigils, even their Protection and healing won’t keep you from hitting that damage threshold, and as soon as they dip below it, you can start applying burns.

If they heal above 90%, just autoattack them again. If they kite, Flashing Blade, Leap of Faith, and JI give you up to 8 leaps/teleports every 40 seconds to sustain pressure, and you’ve still got ZD, ZF, and your utilities when you need them to make a push (just pace your burn application so you don’t lose all of your stacks to a single cleanse). Smite Condition is also a great tool for keeping DS Eles in line, since it provides Fury and healing for you every 16 seconds along with an extra chunk of damage for them to deal with.

DS Eles aren’t my favorite things to fight, but I also don’t feel much pressure to disengage if I face off with one. I guess I could just be fighting some bad Eles, but I don’t think that only pro Eles are capable of maintaining protection, applying CC, and healing when they go below 90%. Eles are one big reason I enjoy running a moderate amount of power-based damage even on Carrion builds: if they’re DS, pressure ‘em with autos and crit procs, and if they’re Stone Heart, let the burns do the work instead.

I don’t know the specific reason why high-level teams aren’t running them, but I’d suggest that there are a couple factors at play:

1) As others have stated, the Hammer Meditation build received a mix of buffs and nerfs this patch, while many other builds across various professions received straight offensive and defensive buffs. This just naturally makes it less appealing in the new meta, even if the build itself still works fine.

2) Bunker Guardians have found their way back into the meta, so the support that the old Hammer build offered to teams (e.g. Absolute Resolution and Indomitable Courage) is no longer something exclusive. If my understanding of the previous meta is correct, bunker builds fell out of favor due to the prevalence of “bruiser” builds like Shoutbow and Cele Ele, which could hold a point while also dealing considerable damage and winning 1v1 fights. Bunker Guardians essentially needed their team to babysit them and kill opponents who engaged on the point, while Bruiser builds were more self-sufficient and only needed help when multiple enemies engaged simultaneously. Teams still wanted the support that Guardians provided, however, and so the Hammer Meditation build became part of the meta as a bursty, resilient teamfighter that could hold its own while helping its allies. With bunkers back in the meta, however, there’s more access to Guardian support and less demand for the original niche the Hammer Guardian filled.

3) Hammer Guardian has even more competition in this meta as a burst build, and personally, I feel like there’s a lot of overlap in the role that Hammer Guards and Mantra Mesmers fill. Just to outline some of the ways that Mantra Mesmers compete with/edge out Hammer Guardians:

-Mantra builds also possess the ability to teleport in from long range and CC targets, but unlike Hammer Guardians, they’re not dependent on their teleport to compensate for broadly-telegraphed attacks. Hammer Guardians sometimes have a hard time bursting efficiently without JI, which is only up every 36 seconds, while Mantra builds have non-telegraphed options for controlling targets and only a 24 second cooldown on Blink.

-Mantra builds’ main AoE burst combo recharges in 12 seconds, while Hammer Guardians generally can’t go off more than once or twice per minute thanks to cooldowns on JI and Shield of Wrath. Mantra builds can also just burst harder than Hammer Guardians, since besides the incredible damage modifiers they have access to, their higher HP gives them the option to run a Berserker’s Amulet instead of Marauder’s, and they have more consistent Fury uptime (permanent, so long as they keep hitting people below 75% HP).

-Mantra builds have more blinds and better condi cleansing than Hammer Guardians. Most Medi Hammer builds can’t take Vigorous Precision anymore, but Mesmers still have access to their version of the trait, and they have healing on their Shatters in addition to the cleansing/blinding. Never mind all of the CC/Stealth/Invulnerability, and that they can trait to summon Illusionary Defenders when they successfully dodge. The Guardian’s sustain is still strong, but the point is that Mesmers don’t need to run glassy to achieve better burst.

-The Mantra Mesmer can’t provide Stability for its team, but it can still provide plenty of safe stomps for its team with Blinding Dissipation, Distortion/Inspiring Distortion, Portal, Chaos Storm, and its instant-cast CC. It also provides a bit of healing for its team via Inspiration traits.

-Mantra builds generally have better mobility than Hammer Guardians, since Blink is ground-targeted and on a shorter CD than JI, and Portal is always an option for the Mesmer.

Anyways, that’s my take on it. It’s not that Hammer Guardian is a bad build just because Glacial Heart is competing with Absolute Resolution now, but it’s become easier for other builds to offer the same things as the Hammer Guardian while being more specialized in their roles.

Jerus.4350:

Zui references the PVE uses where it’s the top dog right now. With Symbolic Avenger (zeal GM) you get extra 10% while the enemy is in the symbol as well as the minor 10% boost to your symbol. And, you can run Honor tree for the larger/longer symbols. It’s just a PVE powerhouse, but a lot of that relies on more or less stationary targets staying in your field. That said, the block and healing it provides have always been pretty nice regardless of the damage.

Obviously PVP is different. Just from a practical stand point something is always going to be the best option. Mace and hammer by design do best against immobile enemies with their high reliance on field damage, scepter is like this too though being a range weapon has it’s own benefits.

So basically, just like Meditations are weak in PVE the mace and symbols are pretty unimpressive in PVP.

Are you referring to PvP in general, as in both sPvP and WvW? Right now, the Mace is a popular choice on the meta bunker builds in sPvP, since its lack of mobility isn’t a huge problem when you’re fighting on capture points, and you can run a Staff and/or “Retreat!” to move quickly between teamfights. It provides fantastic sustain and great support/area control, and since you’re not usually trying to kill things quickly as a bunker, it’s a solid choice all around.

Mace is definitely the least effective in WvW, where its short range, poor mobility, and lack of CC become significant issues. Like you said, though, certain weapons are bound to just be naturally stronger or weaker in different game modes, so I don’t see this as a specific reason to buff the Mace (especially when it’s part of the meta in the other two modes).

The only changes I’d really agree with for the Mace would be letting the final hit in the auto-chain cleave, and allowing for early activation of Protector’s Strike. I think that the Mace currently only needs quality of life changes, and not a straight-up performance boost.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I actually have a theory about this. Since the forum search function doesn’t work, I’ll have to search in google to find relevant topics. What google returns isn’t sorted by date or relevance to current builds, so I’ll get a scattershot of both recent and ancient topics.

What I imagine happens is, someone does this too look up a question (I.E. the toughness one), but forgets that the topic is a year old, and posts their opinion on it.

If you search “gw2 toughness,” this thread is currently the second result (just below the wiki page on Toughness), so I’m willing to bet that this is exactly the case.

Accidentally did this to a Warrior on Khylo a few weeks back when he came to kill our treb. Shot him so that he was stuck halfway in the wall, and he was helpless to escape. It occurred to me that I could have just left him there to make the rest of the match a 5v4, but for the sake of sportsmanship, I just went for the mercy kill instead.

I’m not sure how new this wall glitch is, but PvP in general has been buggy for me since the last update. There have been several occasions where I’ve respawned in the enemy base, and if I’m testing new builds in hotjoin, I can expect to get volunteer notifications to transfer to the team I’m already on. Hoping we’ll see some fixes before HoT.

blitzkrieg.2451:

Soryuju.8164:

Speaking from a biased Guardian perspective (no experience playing an Ele, so not going to comment on that):

Yeah, burning probably needs to be toned down, but when the nerf inevitably hits, it would be really nice if Guardians got something to compensate. The popular consensus in the Guardian community right now is that while our burn build is a fun, fast killer, it’s gimmicky and not suited for high-level play. Our power Meditation spec is already falling out of meta, and “Feel My Wrath!” is likely going to be nerfed as well, so if we don’t get any buffs to compensate, we’re just going to be stuck with basically the same bunker build we’ve been running since launch.

I’m well aware that Guardians are still relatively well-off compared to some professions, but lots of us are getting sick of never having any new builds in the meta. Our Spirit Weapons and Signets aren’t viable, there’s no dedicated Consecration build, our Symbols don’t work very well, and until this last patch, we were also struggling to put together a condition build. Regardless of how well off we are in the meta overall, losing a new playstyle like the burn build is going to hurt the profession as a whole and seriously demoralize its community. When the hammer drops, I sincerely hope that there’s some consideration for that fact.

Eh, you act as if you don’t have any other good builds. Guardian has amazing bunker builds and they have amazing burst dmg builds with medi mixtures esp with hammer in teams. Burning getting nerfed doesn’t mean you need to be compensated for kitten.

Like I mentioned in my post, DPS/Burst Guardian has been falling out of the PvP meta, and many of those who still run it have said that they feel significantly weaker. We lost our ability to stack Might rapidly with Shelter, and now that Glacial Heart competes with Absolute Resolution, Hammer isn’t such a popular choice for the build anymore (we lose CC along with the additional burst of damage from GH). We gained Smiter’s Boon and can take the (nerfed) Fiery Wrath now, along with the GS cooldown reduction trait, or we can go into Radiance to trade power for crit chance, Blind, and an Immobilize every 30 seconds.

That’s what Power Medi builds have going for them post-patch. There are 2 problems with this:

1) Other professions have seen more significant improvements to their burst damage than the Guardian has this patch. We have increased competition for that role on a team, especially now that Hammer is a weaker choice, and our sustain doesn’t help us survive for nearly as long as it did in the Cele meta.

2) Our bunker build is no longer being pushed out of the meta by builds like Shoutbow, and it can spec fully into Valor, Honor, and Virtues now. DPS Guardian caught on last meta because teams wanted the support a Guardian provided, but didn’t like how little pressure a bunker could provide on point compared to bruiser builds like Shoutbow or Cele Ele.

Now bunkers are back in demand, which makes it more efficient for teams to dump the DPS Guardian, get even better support from a Guardian bunker, and take a dedicated burst profession that can hit harder than a DPS Guard. The niche that DPS Guardians filled is losing its importance.

As I said, this is going to leave us with basically the same bunker build we’ve been playing since launch. Is that still a good build? Sure. But our diversity is awful, and always has been. We’ve never had more than a couple good builds (in PvP, at least), and unlike a number of other professions, our good builds haven’t changed much since launch. Meditation builds got stronger a couple years back, but that’s about it. When was the last time you faced a decent Guardian outside of casual play that wasn’t running a Shout bunker or Meditation build?

I don’t want our bunker or burn builds buffed from where they are now – it’s just that if they’re going to take the first new playstyle we’ve had in years away from us, I’d like them to try to make something else viable instead, or possibly keep our burn build viable in some way while nerfing the condition itself. I don’t feel like that’s asking much.

Here’s a topic from the Guardian forums about how to counter Burn Guardians:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/good-counter-to-burning-guard/first#post5288922

Thieves aren’t the focus of the thread, but there’s a lot of general advice in there that should be useful (what to dodge, how to pressure, etc.).

Speaking from a biased Guardian perspective (no experience playing an Ele, so not going to comment on that):

Yeah, burning probably needs to be toned down, but when the nerf inevitably hits, it would be really nice if Guardians got something to compensate. The popular consensus in the Guardian community right now is that while our burn build is a fun, fast killer, it’s gimmicky and not suited for high-level play. Our power Meditation spec is already falling out of meta, and “Feel My Wrath!” is likely going to be nerfed as well, so if we don’t get any buffs to compensate, we’re just going to be stuck with basically the same bunker build we’ve been running since launch.

I’m well aware that Guardians are still relatively well-off compared to some professions, but lots of us are getting sick of never having any new builds in the meta. Our Spirit Weapons and Signets aren’t viable, there’s no dedicated Consecration build, our Symbols don’t work very well, and until this last patch, we were also struggling to put together a condition build. Regardless of how well off we are in the meta overall, losing a new playstyle like the burn build is going to hurt the profession as a whole and seriously demoralize its community. When the hammer drops, I sincerely hope that there’s some consideration for that fact.

With Elite specializations coming with HoT, we’re going to be experiencing even more shifts to game balance, and it would be great to have some concrete reassurance that developers and players are on the same page. At present, I’m not convinced we are. Here are a few reasons I can cite:

1) Anet has repeatedly made the statement that they want to avoid “whack-a-mole” balancing, and instead gradually tune the professions by increments, but for quite some time now, we’ve alternated between sudden, massive balance changes and long periods of stagnation. Why is that? I wish we knew, but we don’t.

2) We’ve got professions that have been crying for specific changes since close to launch, but many have either been ignored or addressed in ways that ignore community feedback (e.g. Guardian Shield skills). Why? We don’t know.

3) Why weren’t so many obviously overpowered builds from the recent patch filtered out during the testing phase? These weren’t “hidden” combos by any means, and players found them immediately when the patch released. So why? We don’t know.

We don’t know anything about these types of issues, so it’s hard to put our complete faith in Anet’s design decisions going forward. It would be great if they could at least keep us somewhat in the loop as they’re making changes, because otherwise, it’s just going to lead to worse community relations over time. There doesn’t need to be an essay explaining every change, and not everything has to be open for discussion, but again, just about anything would improve the current situation.

Wolfey.3407:

“The Forum Specialists are a step forward, but they still don’t give us much insight into what the devs are actually thinking or doing at the time, and that feedback is precious to players. With no test server and very little back-and-forth between devs and players, each patch feels like a stab in the dark, and it really doesn’t have to be that way.”

We are forbidden to speak on behalf of ANET or state anything that can be considered concrete unless it’s public knowledge already. The forums specialist job is to keep the threads on the right track with ideas and constructive input, answer general questions in regards to their subject areas and pass along information to the development team.

For the most part, the emails we send are not directly responded to by a member of the dev team. It’s usually just “Got it” along with any answers to questions that they are willing to publicly answer.

The pvp community is being heard though, within the last 30-40 days you can go back through the dev notes and see things the community has suggested that been implemented in one way or another.

Just to be clear, I didn’t mean that remark as a criticism of the Forum Specialists. I understand that it’s not your job to be spokespeople for Anet, and I wouldn’t expect you to pass on information that the developers themselves aren’t speaking about. The point I wanted to make was that it’s frustrating that the communication usually only goes one way – from players to devs. The devs’ half of the conversation usually remains unheard until patch time, which leads to an impatient and uneasy community. That’s not the fault of the Forum Specialists, though. You guys are doing your job perfectly, and I just wish there was a way that we could turn the lists of feedback we give you into something more resembling a conversation.

About Anet never discussing future content, I know that’s been their policy since well before launch, and when it comes to implementing major pieces of content, I can definitely understand the policy of not making promises you’re not sure you can keep. However, game balance is generally more dynamic than something like new game modes or reward systems, and the strength of the game’s professions is something players have to interact with continually during their game experience, regardless of what game modes they play. If my Ranger currently has weak weapons and skills, that affects my immediate experience much more than the upcoming Stronghold game type, or even more than future Elite Specializations. Having a dialogue regarding balance helps to reassure me that the devs are aware of the specific issues, gives the community insight into the solutions the devs are planning, and gives the devs a chance to gather feedback on those solutions from players who are able to spend more time playing the game itself.

As an example of where balance currently goes wrong, consider the recent nerf to the Necromancer trait Chilling Darkness. Necromancers were blindsided by this change, since no one was really complaining about it in-game or on the forums, and it made a trait that was once a viable choice for builds much less appealing. There was no discussion leading up to the nerf, and no explanation following it. Without any context from the devs, it looks like a nerf for the sake of a nerf, and that’s not a good way to market your balance changes. I can’t help but think more community interaction would have either resulted in a different outcome, one way or another.

I do understand that the developers have more responsibilities than posting on the forums, but I agree that communication (particularly regarding game balance) has been a consistent problem during GW2’s lifetime, and that the lack of communication has taken a toll on the community’s spirits. “Uncertain” is definitely a fitting way to describe the mood of the players in the past few weeks.

For me personally, it doesn’t really help that the devs’ current silence is following a major burst of communication in response to the uproar over the expansion’s price tag, and a short-lived spurt immediately after the last balance patch. That suggests to me that the developers only commit time to communicating on the forums when they need to do damage control. Perhaps that’s not true, but so long as we’re not hearing anything to the contrary, what exactly are we left to think? We went from silence, to major activity, to silence again as soon as each crisis had passed.

When Anet decides to talk to us, they tend to say some incredibly smart things. There have been more than a few times when their posts have illuminated why issues that seem to have simple solutions are actually complicated problems that take time to solve. When devs take time to fill us in on what they’re up to, it helps build trust with the community, even if we don’t always like the things they’re saying. It also gives them a chance to get feedback from a player perspective, and I can think of more than a few balance updates where having more of that perspective would have been valuable for Anet.

The Forum Specialists are a step forward, but they still don’t give us much insight into what the devs are actually thinking or doing at the time, and that feedback is precious to players. With no test server and very little back-and-forth between devs and players, each patch feels like a stab in the dark, and it really doesn’t have to be that way.

I’d honestly love it if some of the dev teams could write a paragraph at the start of each week that briefly goes over what they’re working on, the types of solutions they’re considering, ideas they’d like to explore in the future, and so on. Just a paragraph from each team, compiled into a weekly report and posted on the blog each Monday. No major time commitments, no expectations of anything they say being set in stone, just brief updates to keep us in the loop and let us see the way that they’re progressing. If that wouldn’t work, that’s fine, but anything would be better than what we have right now.

As for general counters and tactics:

-Watch for Purging Flames and Judge’s Intervention – both of these skills can start off a burn burst (sometimes together), and reacting effectively to them will put you at a significant advantage for the next ~30 seconds. When you see Purging Flames go down, you can expect to see the Guardian pull out their Greatsword and quickly follow up with either Whirling Wrath, Leap of Faith, or Binding Blade, depending on the situation. WW can stack a huge amount of burns with PF thanks to Burning Bolts from the Fire field, while LoF gives the Guardian a Fire Shield for a few seconds that will force you to back off. Binding Blade is another Whirl Finisher, but it’s mostly dangerous because it can pull people into PF (inflicting 3+ stacks of burn immediately) and set them up for a Whirling Wrath follow-up. Conserve some of your dodges, stun breaks, and other defenses until you see that field go down in each fight. Even if you’re not inside of it, don’t let your guard down.

-When a burn Guardian uses JI, there’s a good chance that you’re going to immediately end up with 6-8 burns on you, since they’ll often start casting their attack (Zealot’s Defense, Zealot’s Fire, Whirling Wratch, etc.) before using JI and warp to you the moment it fires. It can be hard to completely avoid a burst from a well-timed JI, so keep your condition cleanses on hand. If possible, try to interrupt the Guardian’s momentum with blocks, teleports, or hard CC as soon as they warp in. JI is a gap-closer, a heal, and one of the Guardian’s two stun breaks, so getting us to waste it is a great way to gain the upper hand.

-If you don’t see a burn Guardian use Purging Flames during your first extended fight with them, they’re probably running Smite Condition instead. SC gives the Guardian more sustain against direct damage, but more importantly, it changes the way that they burst. SC grants the Guardian Fury and can crit for up to 3k with a Carrion build, and with the Smiter’s Boon trait, they’ll automatically cast SC whenever they use their heal. Guardians using Shelter can burn you if you hit them during their heal, and they’ll proc a second AoE burn if they’re running Balthazar runes (which most do). All of this comes out instantaneously, so if you’re starting to get the Guardian low, you need to watch for a SC+Shelter counter-burst. This will give them a 2s continuous block, heal them for 8k, cleanse two of their conditions, potentially give them 2 stacks of might, hit you for up to 3-6k damage, and put 2-3 stacks of burning on you. This is also an AoE effect, making it especially dangerous if you have multiple allies nearby. Timed appropriately, it can end a teamfight before you have a chance to react.

On a Warrior: As others have said, CC and Berserker’s stance/other cleansing are the key, and the Mace/Shield + GS build is probably more equipped to deal with a burn Guardian than the Hammer/GS build (I don’t recall seeing a Shout Warrior yet in this meta, so I can’t speak for them). Take Brawler’s Recovery and swap weapons often, and be prepared to counter JI with a block (e.g. Shield Stance), stun, or dodge/evade (e.g. Whirlwind attack). Once JI is gone, we’ve only got Contemplation of Purity left to break stuns (and vice-versa), so if you can use a short CC to bait out one of these stun breaks, you can put a lot of pressure on us. Popping Berserker’s Stance early and playing aggressively can go a long way.

On a Mesmer: As mentioned above, kite and CC from a distance. Do NOT stand near your clones, regardless of how far you are from the Guardian or whether you’re stealthed. Burn Guardians will cleave through them in 1-2 hits from a Sword or GS, and your clones feed us VoJ procs for Permeating Wrath. A Guardian can use Flashing Blade, Leap of Faith, and/or JI to rapidly close the distance to you, and being in a crowd of bodies during a WW or Sword auto chain will melt you even if the Guardian is swinging at the wrong target. Don’t give them the opportunity. Be especially careful of Guardians with Smite Condition, since they can wipe most of your clones out instantly every 16 seconds.

If you’re running any type of interrupt build, try to force the Guardian’s stunbreaks with your CC’s, but be aware that the Guardian may still be able to block part of your burst with Shelter/Renewed Focus. Don’t over-commit to a burst until you know that the Guardian has depleted their defenses. With PU, just keep stealthed and at a distance while you wear the Guardian down. If you’re using conditions, it may be in your interest to space them out. We can flip a condition burst into a surge of boons via Contemplation of Purity, or use Purging Flames to cleanse and reduce incoming condi duration for several seconds, but our cleansing over time is weaker.

I’m out of time, but I tried to touch on some points that hadn’t been covered. Hope this helps!

ThePaladin.2140:

I’ve been having trouble with none of the ones you mentioned except mesmers and that one weird engi that I can’t seem to burn down. Eles are easier for me and so are necros. Warriors are a bit tougher but they are very susceptible to burns. [/quote]

What I’ve taken from the recent burn Guardian threads is that your counters are going to vary depending on your weapon set and choice of utilities, because right now, lots of people seem to have a different experience with what counters a burn Guardian and what doesn’t. There’s even disagreement on whether or not condition cleanse is an effective counter, likely because some people play the condition Guardian for burst (popping cooldowns to stack 14+ burns all at once) while others use it for more sustained burning (spacing out burns and rapidly reapplying them after cleansing to maintain 5-8 stacks).

If I recall, you also play your burn Guardian primarily in WvW, while Saiyan plays Guardian in sPvP. There is no Dire amulet available in SPvP, so most burn Guardians opt for the Carrion amulet there, and that likely changes our performance against similar builds in these game modes.

Continuing on to a second post! I think I put this up in your other condi Guardian thread, but here’s the build I’ve been running:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNAsfRlsAhqhY3QwcIwPEH+DVOCnwM0GAVQdeD3L4DA-TpBFwACOBAMOCAe2fIaZgEHCAAPAAA

I’ve had a very different experience against many of the builds you’ve described as counters to the Duelist build, so I thought I’d post my version here for the sake of comparison. I’m not a “pro” player by any means, so I’m not going to comment on how the build performs against what you call “good” players in a 1v1. If you’d like to try the build out, you can decide how it stacks up for yourself. Here are some of this burn Guardian’s more notable features, though:

• 29-49% critical chance on the 1H Sword (Right-Hand Mastery, Radiant Power, Fury). I run Air and Fire sigils to further ramp up the build’s power-based damage. Besides helping to keep the build’s damage high against opponents who cleanse, these are important because they count as extra hits for VoJ. Normally, the Sword’s auto chain can maintain 2-3 stacks of burning on a target with VoJ’s passive. With A/F sigils, it can maintain 4-5 stacks.

• In this build, the Greatsword is primarily a utility weapon that complements the Sword/Torch and rounds out its weaknesses. It provides additional AoE damage/cleaving, mobility, CC, stealth tracking, and area control. Since the Sword is the build’s primary damage source, I run utility sigils here instead of things like Geomancy or Smoldering. The combination improves the GS’s cleaving even further, lets it instantly weaken heals (since Doom procs immediately on the hit from Hydromancy), and helps keep people close by and grouped up for WW/SoW and Permeating Wrath.

• You can stack instant skills and effects for a surprise AoE burst during fights. Moving in with FB or JI when your HP starts getting low, activating Smite Condition and Shelter (with Smiter’s Boon, Balthazar Runes, and MoTP/AW), and swapping to GS will stack a variety of effects that can easily reverse bad situations. I’ve killed many Thieves and ended many teamfights with this secondary burst, since it hits hard (3k crits from Smite Condition, an easy 5+ stacks of burning) and can come out of nowhere. Even a partial burst that doesn’t use all of these effects is useful, but since the longest cooldown in the burst is only 36 seconds, there are times when unloading everything will pay off.

• Unfortunately, I don’t really have room for Purging Flames, since the Fury uptime from Smite Condition is too important for the build’s damage output, and losing the surprise burst and extra healing would also hurt performance quite a bit. Running SC does let me take the Retaliatory Subconscious trait, which gives me some extra burst resistance and extra burn/Might procs every so often. It’s not a great trait, but I do think it’s a little underrated.

Anyways, I’ve typed a lot, but hopefully some of it will be useful to you as you continue to refine your builds for your guide. I’ve attached a screenshot below that illustrates the damage potential of a single Sword auto attack chain with A/F sigils on a Heavy Golem (tested without Fury, though the crits were in my favor here regardless). Even ignoring the residual burn ticks, it’s a good chunk of damage, and it’s hard to defend against because it’s distributed between power, procs, and burn ticks.

@Bash

I did some basic tests with Scavenger at your suggestion, but I think as things stand, I’d still have to stick with Balthazar runes. I definitely agree with your thinking, particularly about how the number of burn stacks we can apply at one time doesn’t matter as much as how well we can maintain burn stacks through enemy cleanses. I actually think that our ability to rapidly reapply burns after cleanses is the Guardian’s strongest feature as a condition build, much more so than our potential condi burst. However, I think the +45% duration from Balthazar runes is too much to ignore with our Virtue of Justice. Radiant Fire puts us at +65% burning duration, making each hit from VoJ worth over 3 seconds of burning. I don’t know of any builds that can cleanse rapidly and consistently enough to block out all of those extra burn ticks. If the opponent’s not cleansing those burns, Balthazar’s damage is going to win out.

As for other aspects of the runes, Scavenger’s lifesteal is a wonderful bonus, but it’s also competing against Balthazar’s AoE burn on heal, which is almost 5 seconds long without Smoldering sigils and can put on lots of pressure in teamfights when combined with Smiter’s Boon. I think both effects are good, but would still pick Balthazar right now for the extra damage.

@Saiyan

No doubt that there are lots of great options for burn builds, and until the meta stabilizes more, there’s no way to cover everything in just a couple forum posts.

As for your question, I’d personally stick with Radiance even if I wasn’t running Scepter. To be honest, I don’t think Zeal is a particularly great line for condition builds unless they’re using a Scepter, since the only trait a burn Guardian would really find worth taking besides Zealous Scepter is Kindled Zeal. All of Zeal’s minor traits are going to be situational at best in a condition build, since you have limited access to symbols and few ways to make sure people stay inside of them. Radiance has fantastic minors that improve your crit chance, stomp game, and general utility, so it wins straight-up here.

For Zeal’s majors, if you’re not running a Scepter, that probably leaves you with Fiery Wrath in the Adept tier. While FW is a classic Guardian trait, it’s not going to do that much in a build with middling power and low crit chance. In the GM tier, you’re probably going to be taking Shattered Aegis, which does about 450 damage to light armor NPCs with the builds you’ve posted above. Even in teamfights, that’s not too great, but your other options here are probably even worse.

Just to illustrate the comparison, Radiance is offering you blinds, renewable VoJ and Zealot’s Fire, bonus critical chance for both weapons, Sword and Torch cooldown reduction, extra burn damage/duration, and burn on block. Without a Scepter to factor in, it’s not even a competition.

Have you considered running a Greatsword on the Duelist build instead of the Scepter/Focus set? I’ve found that it makes Thieves and Mesmers considerably easier to deal with, since the GS can track them in stealth and pressure them with AoE damage (especially if you’re running Supreme Justice and Permeating Wrath). I’ve mentioned before that I’m not really a fan of the Scepter for burn builds, since Smite depends on the Immobilize from Chains of Light to hit consistently, and the autoattack can’t proc VoJ quickly thanks to its single hits and slow, innacurate travel (at least in a power build, the orbs themselves hurt). I think you’ve even mentioned elsewhere that you “replace” the Scepter’s autoattack with the Torch 5, but that really just makes me wonder if the Scepter is really pulling its weight. If popular builds on 6 of the 8 professions are countering a burn Guard that’s supposed to be a duelist, I’d personally consider trying out some alternatives. That’s just my two cents.

The build you put up for the Duelist has Absolute Resolution and Indomitable Courage as the default traits – when you were writing up the list of counters, is that what you had been running? Since you lose a ton of pressure by taking those traits instead of Supreme Justice and Permeating Wrath, I could see some of the builds you listed being more problematic for the AR/IC build than for a fully-traited burning build. These traits also make enemy cleansing less problematic, which you cite as an issue with some of the counters above. They may not be enough to get you over a well-played Ele’s defenses, but I haven’t generally had issues dealing with Guardian or Engi cleansing when running SJ/PW.

I guess it’s frowned upon in high-level play to not take AR and IC, but honestly, I feel like if your team needs that extra support, you should probably be running a bunker Guardian and getting your DPS elsewhere. Team roles in this meta have been more clearly defined between DPS and bunker/support, and if a burn Guardian is sacrificing its amazing cleaving damage and condition reapplication to pack in extra support, I feel like the result isn’t going to offer most of the things that makes either a burn Guardian or a support Guardian good.

I can’t test it now, but I thought I read somewhere that CD had a shared cooldown across Guardians, so that once one Guardian’s CD activated, it would be 15 seconds before another Guardian’s could. That would prevent zergs from abusing the trait by stacking multiple Guardians and generating long chains of Aegis procs on the entire group. It makes sense and would push the choice back in favor of SiN, but it would be great if someone could confirm or deny that this is actually how the trait works.

Torch 5 is definitely more useful than it’s been previously, but the channel time and lack of benefit to the Guardian still make it pretty situational. The two main uses I’ve found for it:

1) Cleaving downed enemies, especially in a burning build with Supreme Justice and Permeating Wrath. When enemies are downed or busy trying to revive their teammates, the channel is much safer, and the burning you can stack with it is often enough to stop the revive and down the reviver (or at least force them to back off). If you’ve got an ally trying to finish the enemy off in a team fight, you can stand close behind them and use Torch 5 to keep conditions off of them while still cleaving the downed target. When combined with the VoJ active for blind and extra burning damage for your team, it’s a decent skill for wrapping up mid-sized fights.

2) Chasing fleeing enemies, since they have far fewer options to to stop/punish the channel. It gives you a steady stream of damage that stacks burns, refreshes Zealot’s Fire, and keeps opponents in combat. If you’re using the Torch with a Sword, the extra range is also appreciated.

In situations where opponents are more free to react, I’ve found that using Torch 5 generally just gets you punished, and the cleansing mechanic is awkward overall. I don’t think that Torch 5 being situational is an inherently bad thing, especially since Torch 4 can basically be used whenever it’s off cooldown, but it’d be nice if the skill didn’t have quite as many limitations. I also wouldn’t mind raising the skill’s cooldown in exchange for some additional functionality, even if it just cleansed a condition from the Guardian at the start of the channel.

I agree that Feel My Wrath is too much as things are now, but I don’t think that nerfing the skill is going to fix everything. In order to mitigate the impact that FMW is having on the PvE/WvW metagame, you’d have to raise the skill’s cooldown far past 45 seconds, or the problem isn’t going to be solved. You would just go from perma-Quickness on PvE/WvW zergs to 80% Quickness uptime, or you just stack more Guardians to make up the difference. Even in dungeons, 5 Guardians could still stack 30 seconds of Quickness at a time, so even raising FMW’s cooldown to 90 seconds could still give Guardian-centric groups with 33% Quickness uptime a good chance to outperform mixed compositions.

Unfortunately, nerfing the skill significantly enough to break the Quickness meta in the aforementioned settings would mean rendering it useless in areas of the game like PvP or WvW solo roaming. In the end, it would probably mean that RF would once again become the Guardian’s sole viable elite. With Symbolic Avenger disabled/nerfed and burning damage likely up next on the chopping block, most Guardians aren’t eager to lose more options for builds.

The problem right now is Quickness itself, which is an absurd boon that never should have become so prevalent and easily accessible. Cap Quickness duration on each player to 5-10 seconds at maximum, reduce the duration of Quickness currently available on all skills by at least 2 seconds, possibly increase FMW’s base cooldown, and then give FMW some other bonus effect(s) to compensate. Maybe have it provide super speed for 5 seconds to help address our mobility concerns, and/or make it a stun breaker. Maybe it could take some inspiration from Reaper Shouts and inflict Burning on nearby enemies in addition to providing support. Those are just a couple of random ideas off the top of my head, though, so don’t take them too seriously.

The point is that if FMW is going to remain competitve with RF after being nerfed, it’ll need to bring something else unique to the table. Whatever it does, it should be facilitating new playstyles for Guardians, or we’re going to find ourselves once again locked into the same type of builds we’ve been playing since launch.

messiah.1908:

fire and air are crit base and with carrion you get 4% and with fury 24% and with sword +15% so 39% for about 4 sec as u need to use meditation which yield just about another burn tick

with gs +sc which immobilize you can ji (inner fire proc use gs aoes skills and you proc much more

Don’t forget about our Radiant Power trait. Against burning foes (all of them), the Sword’s minimum crit chance is 29%, and it goes up to 49% whenever you receive Fury from a Meditation or other source. 5 attacks per auto chain lets you proc Fire/Air on almost every chain, and the build has over 60% uptime on Fury without support from allies (63% within one cycle of Renewed Focus, the build’s longest Fury cooldown).

Since Scepter isn’t an effective ranged weapon, the only thing you lose by taking the Sword is the Immobilize (and some Might-stacking if you’re traited into Zeal instead of Radiance). In exchange, you get a low-cooldown gap-closer that blinds, which makes you difficult to kite and helps you conserve JI for when it’s most needed.

The Sword doesn’t offer a burst as extreme as the Mad King builds discussed above, but I’ve found that it has an edge when it comes to the consistency of its bursts. The Sword can keep a target continually at 4-5 stacks of burning with just its auto-attack and then push to 11-14 stacks by using the Torch skills and JI. Even if they survive the 4-5k burn ticks, the Sword puts them back at 4-5 stacks within a few seconds. It’s a huge amount of pressure that just gets more intense in group fights, thanks to the Sword’s cleaving autos hitting multiple times per target and Permeating Wrath spreading all of those burns around.

I’ve been running something like this for the past few days:

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-BFkg;1NFk30E33G-90;9;4OnQ;0146147136;4ING7T;15NV05NV01L

I haven’t seen much talk about our Sword in this thread, but I actually prefer it to Scepter for burn builds. The Sword lacks range, but its attacks are much more reliable than the Scepter’s (especially with Flashing Blade for gap-closing), and this makes it easier to proc VoJ consistently. With Fire and Air sigils, the Sword can proc VoJ twice per auto chain on a single target, and much more on multiple targets (which amplifies Permeating Wrath). This rapid application helps sustain your DPS through your opponent’s cleanses, and the power-based damage from your Sword on top of this will force most opponents to either burst you down first or disengage. If they’re unable to do either, the burn ticks (which often reach 4-5k) will wear them out quickly.

Flashing Blade is excellent with the Torch, guaranteeing that you’ll connect with Zealot’s Flame for a long burn while blinding your target, and it puts you in a good position to land a follow-up with Zealot’s Fire and/or Smite Condition. It also lets you conserve Judge’s Intervention for critical moments by helping you to sustain pressure against kiting targets. Zealot’s Defense is also surprisingly useful in this build. Even when some hits miss, it’ll stack burning while potentially triggering Fire/Air sigils and Radiant Fire.

I mostly end up using the GS as a backup weapon because the Sword seems to do significantly more DPS. The GS is for mobility, utility, and more AoE. I’m currently testing Doom and Hydromancy sigils, which let the GS finish off opponents who have survived the Sword/Torch’s burst. Hydromancy triggers Doom, so I get an instant-cast Poison and Chill on weapon swap, and more healing disruption from Binding Blade. Cleaving downed players with Whirling Wrath/Symbol of Wrath is brutal after swapping, especially with Permeating Wrath active. In general, the GS complements the Sword/Torch by helping you move between capture points, letting you control your distance to your opponent, and restricting enemy movement and recovery.

We’ll see how it does when burning gets nerfed, but I’m enjoying it for now and thought I’d share.

Vizardlorde.8243:

Personally I think will be fine in pvp if they fix the ridiculuos condition damage some classes have (engi >.>). PVE on the other hand I feel like we are being fixed w/o being broken.

This has been my concern since the condition damage buffs were revealed. I think that offensively, Guardians came out pretty well this patch, despite the nerfs to some of our damage traits and MotP/AW. The Radiance Master traits are looking phenomenal, enough that I wish they switched one of them with one of the GM traits so we could take more than one. Renewed Justice is a nice trait that we’re picking up for free, but one that I consistently see underrated in PvP (for teamfighting, it can really help you snowball after you use Justice is Blind to help secure a kill). Our Fury access has improved, we get another 10% crit chance on burning enemies from Radiance, and one-handers get an additional 15% on top of that, totalling up to 45% free critical chance with Fury. Smiter’s Boon and Shattered Aegis will also hopefully be nice sources of free damage, and since most PvP Guardians didn’t spec into Zeal, I believe we’re looking at higher base power for most of this if we keep the same amulet. None of this even counts potentially higher burning damage, depending on how you spec.

The question is whether or not we’re even going to get a chance to use any of it. Most of our condition removal is still tuned for the metagame from launch, with Purging Flames being our only condition removal skill to receive any buffs since that time. The game’s pace has continually accelerated since launch, however, and I think that the cooldowns on our powerful cleanses are basically going to put a timer on us when we’re fighting condition builds in this new meta. I’m not even convinced that Pure of Voice/Trooper Rune bunkers will have the cleanse to sustain themselves, thanks to the moderate cooldowns on Shouts and the necessity of having to give up Force of Will for PoV. Maybe the next few weeks will prove otherwise, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Guardian meta just pushed further into burst damage. Kill before you’re killed, because Meditation healing probably can’t keep up like it used to.

I personally want to try a condition spec using the Torch, which looks like it’s our main way to participate in a condition meta. Wrath of Justice is incredible for burst builds, but I feel like Radiant Fire has flown under the radar up until now, and might have a lot of potential. However, if the best we can do is attrition damage when everyone else is bursting, it’s probably not going to work. The only way to tell will be to play the patch and see the numbers.

Thanks for the feedback! To answer the point about the cooldown increases, the main goal was to make room for a cooldown reduction trait while keeping the changes to True Shot and Deflecting Shot minimal. If I hadn’t raised the base cooldowns, their respective recharges with the trait would be 3.2 seconds and 8 seconds. I felt like this would be too much in PvP situations when combined with the increased utility and improved mechanics each of these skills can acquire from the new traits.

For example, True Shot no longer roots you with Hunter’s Agility, and we’ve already seen that it can hit like a truck. It’s basically a Mighty Blow from up to 1200 range, and I think being able to kite while firing it every 3 seconds would be too much. Puncture Shot and Spear of Justice can provide a consistent stream of damage in the meantime while maintaining a lot of Cripple uptime on individual targets, and the new Symbol of Energy can work with Hunter’s Ward to help prevent opponents from escaping. I don’t think True Shot needs a 3-second cooldown for the revised Longbow to be effective.

Deflecting Shot is a bit less problematic on its own, but since the knockback can set up for True Shot, and Symbol of Energy makes it easier to control your distance relative to the opponent, I felt like the base cooldown increase was justified. One alternative solution would be to make Deflecting Shot’s piercing baseline and only include the knockback/cooldown reduction with the Heavy Light trait. This would justify some increase while improving the skill’s utility if you opt not to take Heavy Light.

In the case of both traits, I felt like the 2-second cooldown increases were worth the cooldown reduction on Hunter’s Ward, which can be reduced as much as 20 seconds from its current version. I also don’t think those cooldown increases would make the Heavy Light trait mandatory, though most Longbow builds would probably opt to take it anyways. Since you can’t run Longbow without the DH specialization, I don’t think that’s as much of a problem for build diversity as it might be elsewhere.

@ Ragnar the Rock: The idea was that the Longbow should have a flexible range, because all of our Virtues and most of our utilities lose their power when we’re distant from our allies (and you can’t use our new Spear of Justice at all from 1200 range, since it will miss/break if you go beyond 900). This version of the Longbow works just as well as the other one at 1200 range, but it tries to address the fact that always staying up close or at range isn’t preferable for Guardians. We need to be able to dive into fights to support our allies, but we also need options for creating distance and disengaging when we start feeling pressure. I believe that creating a weapon which provides a medium between the two playstyles is preferable to creating one which specializes in something we haven’t been built for up until this point.

Unless our support skills have their range increased and our general focus on support is broadened, I think that a compromise between playstyles is the best we can ask for, and I think it’s still addressing some of the big issues that the Guardian community has been dissatisfied with since launch (specifically our lack of ranged counterpressure and disengages).

Oh, I almost forgot to mention, I like the idea of Deflecting Shot blocking projectiles instead of just destroying them. Makes the Longbow feel a little more cohesive with the rest of the Guardian’s themes and gives it some synergy with other traits in different lines.

Next up, revised Traits!

Previous Version: When we were last shown the DH specialization, the traits looked messy, especially compared to those from the Reaper specialization later on. Some traits, like Pure of Sight, seemed distinctly out of place. Others were much more polished, like the new Virtue traits at each tier. Aside from the Virtues and some vaguely synergistic Longbow traits, however, the DH seemed to be missing the distinct themes present throughout the Reaper’s traits. I wanted to establish these themes more clearly, so I picked the three most obvious ones: Longbow, Virtues, and Traps (with some traits more directly linked to these themes than others). Here’s what I came up with:

Minor Traits:

Virtuous Action (Adept): Unchanged.

Defender’s Dogma (Master): Cleanse one condition when you block an attack. 10 second cooldown.

Zealot’s Aggression (Grandmaster): Moved from Major Adept tier.

Adept Traits:

Dulled Senses: Moved from Major Master tier.

Soaring Devastation: Unchanged.

Piercing Light: Trap hits Bleed enemies for 8 seconds. Trap abilities have 20% reduced recharge.

Master Traits:

Heavy Light: Deflecting Shot pierces enemies and knocks back targets within 300 range of the user (Distance: 120). Longbow abilities have 20% reduced recharge.

Bulwark: Unchanged.

Dragon’s Blood: Apply 3 stacks of Bleeding to nearby enemies for 8s when you inflict Burning on a target. 360 radius, 8 second cooldown.

Grandmaster Traits:

Hunter’s Agility: You are no longer rooted in place while channeling any abilities.

Big Game Hunter: Unchanged.

Trapper’s Focus: Traps cleanse 2 conditions and break stun on the user when triggered.

Notes:

-The new Defender’s Dogma helps us a little with cleansing in a meta where conditions keep coming faster. It’s similar to the Purity trait, but less passive if you manage your blocks well.

-Zealot’s Aggression fills Pure of Sight’s role perfectly while being much easier to use. It’s somewhat weaker than our pre-patch Radiant Power minor, though.

-Dulled Senses will synergize with both Hunter’s Ward and traited Deflecting Shot, so the Longbow line seems like a good home for it.

-Piercing Light gives Traps some much-needed cooldown reduction, and I upped the base Bleed duration from 6 to 8 seconds to improve damage consistency slightly.

-Heavy Light gives Deflecting Shot better general utility at all ranges, and the brief knockback + Blind can let you set up skills like True Shot or Hunter’s Ward at close range. Symbol of Energy’s new teleport mechanic gives you flexiblity in using this skill for the CC or projectile defense as the situation demands. The cooldown reduction mostly offsets the increases I listed above while helping to bring Hunter’s Ward into line.

-Dragon’s Blood can fit with condition-focused DH’s while also supplementing Trap-based Bleeds from the Piercing Light trait. Traps have a lot of conditions incorporated, so I feel like this matches the theme while keeping the specialization flexible. Despite the potential for 100% uptime, 3 Bleed stacks shouldn’t be overwhelming.

-Hunter’s Agility fits the Longbow theme by removing the root from True Shot, but it could also help improve abilities like Zealot’s Defense, Empower, Ring of Warding, Shield of Absorption, and the new Signet of Courage. GW2 is a very mobile game, and being locked in place hinders many of these skills. Mobile RoW is a big incentive for Hambow DH’s, but they’ll pass up Big Game Hunter if they want to take it.

-Trapper’s Focus helps give Traps some defense and utility. Guardians often live and die by their utility skills, and running multiple Traps for burst damage is likely to make for some gimmicky builds. Traps are likely to trigger shortly after the start of a fight, so this can help you ride out the initial wave of condis and CC while you set up your burst. Defensive Traps like Fragments of Faith and Purification will also let you conserve some cleanse and CC protection for when you need it later in the fight, so you don’t have to burn all of your defenses while bursting. This trait also makes it more feasible to splash Traps into Meditation builds, but again, you’ll lose Big Game Hunter and potential Hambow shenanigans if you do.

Anyways, that’s all I’ve got for now. Would these sort of reworks be appealing, or do you think they’re way off base (underpowered, overpowered, not addressing the real issues, etc.)? I enjoyed coming up with them either way, but I’d love to hear the community’s feedback.

The recent patch notes have brought on a lot of discussion about the Guardian’s flaws and the tools we’ll need to keep up with an accelerating metagame. In light of that, I thought I’d put together some of my ideas on how our upcoming Elite spec could help us accomplish this.

I know that the current Dragonhunter has likely changed since the last time we saw it, and I know that these types of topics rarely yield actual changes in-game, but it was a fun brainstorming activity for me regardless. I don’t think these suggestions are perfect, and I’m certainly not any sort of authority on the Guardian, so constructive criticism is welcome.

Let’s start with the Longbow!

Previous Version: The existing version of the Longbow has some quirks, but it seems like it’s intended for teamfighting from afar and thinning herds of distant mobs. For example, its autoattack has a conditional cripple, and True Shot self-roots. These aren’t desirable traits in single-target fights or duels. Furthermore, the recent Virtue nerf will make it harder to support our team from the back lines, and I think the Longbow needs to be more versatile to account for this change. This will require reworking both its skills and associated traits (discussed later).

Revised Longbow Skills (All skills have 1200 maximum range)

Puncture Shot: Fire a bouncing arrow between multiple nearby foes. If an arrow strikes a target with at least 2 stacks of Burning, the target is crippled for 1 second. 20% projectile finisher, 3/4 second cast time per shot.

True Shot: Effect unchanged, but base cooldown increased to 6 seconds.

Deflecting Shot: Effect unchanged, but base cooldown increased to 12 seconds.

Symbol of Energy: Chain skill. Fire an arcing arrow that Burns targets at its destination for 2 seconds and creates a symbol that grants Vigor to allies (5 second duration). 3/4 second cast time, base cooldown increased to 25 seconds.

Lightspeed (Chain from Symbol of Energy): Teleport to the center of your Symbol of Energy. Chain resets and goes on cooldown after the Symbol’s duration has expired. 1/4 second cast.

Hunter’s Ward: Rain arrows down on the target area for 2 seconds, pulsing damage to enemies 4 times and Crippling them for 2 seconds with each pulse. When the barrage ends, create an impassable barrier around each enemy still inside the area for 4 seconds. 50s cooldown.

Notes:

-Puncture Shot’s change was intended to make the skill perform more consistently across different types of encounters while retaining its conditional control. With the previous version, Rangers would have an especially bad time with it, while the skill would just be a slow, regular autoattack in 1v1’s and many boss fights. The number of required burning stacks could be raised if the condition’s too easy to meet.

-Everyone wants a ground-targeted teleport, but Guardians aren’t meant to run from fights. My solution is a slow, telegraphed teleport via Symbol of Energy. This will allow a Guardian to disengage from fights, but not immediately, and opposing PvP’ers will know exactly where we’re heading in advance. Alternatively, it can be used to engage from afar and bring the Guardian back into range for supporting allies with Virtues, Shouts, etc. This solves two problems simultaneously without making Judge’s Intervention obsolete.

-Hunter’s Ward was too long of a CC on too long of a cooldown, which is generally boring and not always desirable for PvE content. I sort of fudged the numbers here by mashing Ring of Warding and the Ranger’s Barrage together, and I’m open to changing the durations if people think they’re off.

Continued below:

Obtena.7952:

I’m not going anywhere. Just because you don’t agree with me doesn’t mean I need your permission to post. We aren’t getting a shield that blocks melee because we already have an offhand that does that … awesomely I might add. Think about that.

Why are we getting a Focus that will be able to apply Protection when we’ve already got a Shield that does that? Just because one offhand partially covers a role doesn’t mean another can’t have some overlap, especially if it fills the role in a different way. Our Shield could supply a channeled block and/or the Aegis boon to itself and allies instead of regular, individual blocks like the Focus.

In regard to your previous post, CD used to be the only issue with the Shield, but bear in mind, the Shield hasn’t changed since the first few months of the game’s release. The game’s PvP has gotten much faster in the time since then, and our defenses have been pressed harder and harder while the Shield has been left behind. Even bunker Guards have been pushed out of the competitive scene. In a metagame that’s burstier and filled with more condition spam than it ever was in the game’s first 6 months, Shields will need some extra defensive power to see any serious use.

Outside of PvP, Shield’s never been popular because it’s all about defense when PvE is all about damage, and that mob-scattering knockback on the 5 doesn’t help it there, either. I don’t see it ever being popular in PvE without a complete overhaul, but then, Warrior and Engi shields aren’t very popular in PvE either, so that’s par for the course.

Josh Davis.6015:

How about this?

• Shield of Absorption cooldown goes from 30s to 24s baseline.
• Shield of Judgement cooldown goes from 25s to 20s baseline.

Added to the release notes maintained in General Discussion.

Edit: For clarification, the shield recharge trait is still there on top of this. It brings the cooldowns from 24>19s, and 20>16s.

Thank you for the show of good faith from the dev team – it’s reassuring to know that there’s willingness on your end to work with the Guardian community to make changes that will help resolve long-standing issues with our profession, since the most recent set of changes have raised a lot of concern among Guardians about our direction going forward.

That said, I agree with the sentiment that cooldown reduction isn’t going to be enough to make people want to use the Shield. One of the most frequently voiced concerns about the Shield is that it doesn’t synergize with any of our block traits, which often leads to the Focus being a better "shield’ than the Shield itself. With skills that only provide a brief protection boon and a knockback + temperamental projectile barrier, the Shield’s actual defensive power is somewhat lacking. Applying Aegis with its skills would be a great start to fixing this issue, and eventually, a complete rework of Shield of Judgment could benefit the weapon. I like the idea of SoJ as a counter that blocks incoming attacks and applies Aegis and Protection to nearby allies if you’re struck (not just in a cone). That’s just one idea, though.

Since I doubt a rework is on the table for this patch, though, other issues can be addressed. One big one is that Shield of Judgment remains split between sPvP and other game modes. This change is a relic from the game’s early days, and the metagame the change was made during has ceased to exist. The Guardian’s protection uptime is far worse than it used to be, so there is no reason to leave the skill split, especially when many other skills and traits are being merged again with this patch.

Today’s PvP metagame is far more aggressive and fast-paced than the environment the Shield was originally designed for, and there’s much more burst and condition pressure to deal with now, so the Shield simply needs to bring more to the table if it’s going to compete with the Focus’s cleansing, burst, and block synergy. I’m not as well versed in the PvE meta, so I’ll leave it to others to say what changes could make the shield useful there.

Once again, thank you for making an effort to address the community’s concerns on this issue, and hopefully this feedback proves useful.

Speaking from a PvP perspective, the main thing I’m concerned about is how we’re going to handle the new condition buffs. Our cleansing is currently decent, but not great, and the improvements to our condition management with the upcoming patch are pretty bare-bones. To list off the main buffs:

1) We can pick between Smiter’s Boon or the Focus CD-reduction trait for marginally improved cleansing, but can’t take both.

2) “Feel My Wrath!” can be traited with Pure of Voice and run with Trooper runes for up to 2 extra conditions cleansed once every 24 seconds. However, this comes at the cost of being able to refresh Absolute Resolution via Renewed Focus, and you also lose RF’s invulnerability, which has the potential to negate incoming conditions, so the gain isn’t as large as it initially seems.

3) If you were only taking 20 points in Virtues before for AR, you get kitten second cooldown reduction on AR now. If you had 30 points, the cooldown is basically the same (.5 second increase).

No one’s going to use the new Healing Breeze, so I’m not listing its interaction with Shout traits here.

Our sustain is a little better from things like Smiter’s Boon and un-nerfed Selfless Daring, but I’m having a hard time believing that those will offset the massive influx of conditions Anet is pushing for with this upcoming meta, and our low HP pool is liable to dissolve under that kind of pressure. We have no access to Resistance (unless we get lucky with PoV/CoP and convert Chill), and our existing cleanses are geared for a much slower metagame, since most of them haven’t really been updated since release. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think our only cleansing skill to be buffed since launch is Purging Flames. We’ve held on up until now, but I’m worried that this patch will be the breaking point.

Outside of the cleansing issue, I like the idea of FMW, and I’m not really bothered by the new Honor line quite as much as some people are. Protective Reviver will be a nice trait for PvP and decent for group-play in WvW, and most people don’t currently run Honor in PvE anyways. Having the three GM traits competing with each other for slots on bunker builds is annoying, and it’s frustrating that they kept the fall damage trait around without adding anything to it, but I think the rest of the line seems decent enough.

Like many others here, I’m disappointed by the numbers nerfs to our traits, and also with the general laziness apparent in some of the specialization redesigns (or lack thereof). This update was supposed to clean up undesirable traits, so why do we still have Healer’s Retribution, Wrathful Spirit, Symbolic Exposure, Stalwart Defender, and other traits that have been complained about since they were implemented? We may be “in a good spot,” but if you don’t want to buff us, at least let us diversify with some new options.

I’m still excited to try out things like FMW, but after looking over some of the other professions, it definitely seems like less effort went into our changes, and the devs don’t seem to be listening to a lot of the feedback we’ve been giving for the past couple years. I don’t really see our meta growing or changing in many interesting ways in the coming weeks, and that’s what this patch was supposed to be all about.

I haven’t actually seen too much discussion in the Guardian forum about our new Elites yet, and I was curious how people feel about “Feel My Wrath!” now that we know the numbers. To recap:

-10 base seconds of Fury
-5 base seconds of Quickness
-30 second cooldown (!), traitable to 24 seconds
-Can remove up to 2 conditions per cast with Pure of Voice/Trooper Runes, potentially converting one into a boon.
-No indication of a cast time in the patch notes, so until we learn otherwise, I’m assuming it casts instantly like our other Shouts.

Of course, any Elite we get is competing with Renewed Focus for the slot, and RF grants its own shorter-duration Fury when traited, but FMW’s 5 seconds of Quickness on a 24-30 second cooldown is really something. If we want to make comparisons, the Mesmer’s Time Warp Elite currently provides up to 10 seconds of pulsing Quickness to allies standing in the circle, but on a 180 second cooldown, and it’s still considered a good Elite skill (I’m not going to discuss its upcoming buffs here, though). FMW can provide half that effect at least 6 times as frequently, with a more flexible range and Fury as well. I haven’t had the chance to review all of the other balance changes yet, but it seems like a strong contender for the best source of party-wide Quickness in the game.

Quickness also has some pretty great synergy with some of our weapons, especially our 2-handers:

-Some people currently use Sigils of Rage with the GS in PvP to take advantage of how deadly its burst can be while under Quickness, and bringing FMW will let you replace that sigil while gaining the same effect (plus Fury) more consistently.

-Hammer’s slow animations suddenly become much less of a burden while the shout is in effect, making it easier to land clutch control skills, burst down targets, or even drop Symbols of Protection.

-Empower on the Staff doesn’t leave you exposed for nearly as long under Quickness (and gives you some nice Might stacks to complement FMW’s boons) and Line of Warding becomes even more disruptive when you can basically drop it out of nowhere. The new Staff trait also increases boon duration by an unspecified amount, improving the Fury/Quickness from FMW even more.

Besides specific weapons, my understanding is that FMW will also have synergy with Shelter, since Shelter’s channel is independent of the 2 second block the skill grants. If this is accurate (and please correct me if it’s not), then casting FMW before Shelter will accelerate Shelter’s heal while allowing us to block for a short time after the channel completes. This will make it more difficult for unblockable interrupts to put Shelter on cooldown and lets us use Shelter to set up other skills, or to regain momentum in a fight (especially with Smiter’s Boon).

There’s lots of other great utility packed into Quickness, like how it speeds up downed state revives and finishes, and since we’ll have Slow to contend with in the next patch, being able to speed your animations back up when you can’t cleanse seems valuable (I assume Slow and Quickness cancel out). I’d like to know what everyone else thinks, though. For all that it brings, do you think FMW will still get edged out by RF, or do you think it will see play in some builds/game modes? Discuss!

Nike.2631:

I’m sorry, you are pitching the real-world profession of the guy that’s called in when unions and management can’t settle on a contract?

If this were to happen step one is to roll a new one named “Judge Judy”. Followed by “Small Claims Court” and then “Stalled Negotiations” and “Who Needs Juries” and, and, and…

The list of terrible jokes writes itself.

Arbiters are important, and useful, but they’re also about the polar opposite of heroic.

If we’re judging names based on their context in modern society, shouldn’t we also petition for changing the Engineer’s name?

I’m one of the people who’s indifferent to the Dragon Hunter name – as long as it can keep up with the other professions and is fun to play, that’s good enough for me. If we’re brainstorming, though, I think that a good alternative name for the specialization would be “Arbiter.”

“Arbiter” conveys the powerful and relentless nature of the Guardian while still suggesting a profession that hunts down Tyria’s enemies. However, it’s less specific than Dragon Hunter, so most people wouldn’t need to be upset about lore or its thematic resemblance to the Ranger. I generally agree with the idea of a “judge” theme for the specialization, since many of its abilities involve trapping enemies and punishing them in some way. A new ward on the Longbow, cripples and knockbacks throughout the traits, and of course the Trap utilities themselves all fit neatly within the concept. It just feels right and sounds professional.

I used to run Sword for a long time in PvP, and damage was never the problem with it. I found that the Sword faced two main issues:

1) Sticking to the target can be tough, since the Sword only provides one teleport to close gaps. Flashing Blade is a great skill, but it can’t do everything on its own. The Sword has no snares, no Swiftness, and not much defense against incoming CC/snares. You can try to compensate with the Shield 5 or the Focus, but the cooldowns involved still make it difficult to stay on a kiting target consistently. The narrow cone on the third hit of the auto chain only makes this problem worse, since you need decent positioning to get the most out of it.

2) The Sword doesn’t offer much team support – again, Flashing Blade is trying to do all of the work, and that only really cuts it while playing PvE and solo roaming in WvW. In competitive group play, be it sPvP or WvW, Swords have stiff competition from Maces, Greatswords, Hammers, and Scepters (and probably Longbow soon, as well). These weapons compete with the Sword’s damage output while also offering defensive support, AoE damage, CC, and/or range. With its teleport/Blind being its main asset outside of single target damage, justifying Swords isn’t always easy.

I feel like the best solution would be to lower ZD’s damage output in exchange for raising its utility. To break down the changes I’d make:

1) Mobility during the cast. If you’re being attacked from range and use ZD to stop the projectiles, ZD probably won’t connect, and because you’re rooting yourself, there’s a good chance that you’ll end up even more distant from the target than when you started. Unless ZD stops a powerful projectile, it will likely leave you in a worse position against a ranged harrasser.

Allowing the user to move while hurling projectiles will not only allow you to safely advance against ranged attackers and improve your positioning, but it will also help to compensate for ZD’s terrible accuracy. Furthermore, it could give ZD’s projectiles the reach to hit attackers who are beyond 600 range.

2) Upon use, ZD grants 3-4 seconds of Resistance to all nearby allies (360 radius, maybe?). This helps the Guardian to ignore snares from incoming conditions while providing valuable support for its team. Combined with projectile blocking and the ability to advance on ranged attackers, I think this would make the skill worthy of its name.

3) Blocks projectiles instead of destroying them, giving the Sword some trait synergy. This change could be excluded if the skill ended up being too powerful, however.

4) 20% Projectile finisher, because ZD has been unloved for too long.

5) Reduce ZD’s damage to balance out these changes. ZD doesn’t out-DPS the Sword’s auto chain anyways, so I feel like this is an acceptable loss, and being able to move during the cast will make the skill a more viable damage tool regardless of the damage reduction.

These changes get rid of the anti-synergy that ZD’s self-rooting has with the Sword’s dependence on mobility and help ZD complement Flashing Blade. However, they still leave the Sword with a number of weaknesses to compensate for (lack of AoE, lack of snares/swiftness, vulnerability to CC when Resistance isn’t up, etc.). Guardians still perform well in all areas of the game and don’t need many buffs, so I think leaving those weaknesses intact is fair.

Anyways, I’ve been out of the game for a while, so please correct me if anything I said is wrong. Maybe I’m off base about what the Sword needs, but I feel like the weapon and the issues it’s had haven’t changed much since release.

I took this as an additional effect to match the change to Purging Flames, but I guess we’ll see. Assuming that the Stability effect is staying on Hallowed Ground, I wonder if it’ll be effected by the boon duration boost? That would be a double-buff to the skill, if so. I’m also assuming this will only affect boons that are applied after HG goes down, and won’t modify the durations of those already in effect.

A stun breaker would be nice on HG, I admit. I’d be a lot more tempted to take it along in different builds if it were, and it might even let full Consecration builds see some play. If this change doesn’t do much for HG’s popularity, I think that it might be a good next step to take.

ODB.6891:

Soryuju.8164:

The changes to Meditations also show that they’re trying to at least throw offensive Guardians a bone, so we’ll see if any more changes cater to that style.

Based on this preview, I’d say that overall, it looks like an exciting patch for Guardians. Once the condition meta settles down a little bit, I’ll be looking forward to pulling out my Meditation Guardian in SPvP again, and hopefully we’ll see at least some diversification in viable playstyles across the board. My only concern at this point is power creep – they didn’t talk about nerfing very much in the preview, and a lot of things need to be brought down before the game can truly start to be healthy again.

Honestly….making changes to meditations does not show any intent to “throw offensive guardians any bone”. Offensive guardians do not trait for toughness. Offensive guardians trait for power and critical chance…and grab at least 5 in virtues and honor for vigor and inspired virtues.

If they want to throw offensive guardians a bone…they will either move all of that mandatory symbol stuff out of zeal to accommodate players using weapons that don’t have access to symbols…or they will make symbols available for all weapons. They will finally grant combo field finishers for 1h sword and give us some mobility without having to use 2/3 utility slots to get mobility. They will add some sustain to offensive guardian traits or make the addition of symbols/combo finishers for the currently excluded guardian weapons provide sustain. They will provide an offensive elite that doesn’t lock out your normal skills.

About this power creep that people are mentioning. Attempts to equalize (somewhat) damage out put between professions or between builds within a profession does not constitute power creep. It would be different if the top damage professions were being boosted..but that does not appear to really be the case. Many mmos have learned the hard way that balancing does not mean that every time you buff something…something else has to be nerfed. There is such a thing as just correcting an inequity and there not being anything else that is wrong after that inequity has been corrected.

I’m also not excited at yet another semi mandatory utility slot that groups will be demanding me to use to hold their hands in dungeons/fractals. I don’t mind using stab or wor…and I always slot save yourselves just for the group condi clear/swiftness/stun break….but now I’m looking at purging flames being the new demanded utility slot. Got to say…that does not excite me.

Perhaps I wasn’t clear…as Brutaly pointed out above, PvP-oriented Guardians do indeed trait into Valor, and that was my focus in my post. Your arguments seem focused more around min-maxing in high end PvE, which I have relatively little interest in. I think most of your points seem valid, but we’re talking about different things.

I believe that power creep, which was also a point I brought up, is also more of a concern outside of PvE content because it can take more forms than the damage normalization you mentioned (this would be the case for PvE too if groups had a reason to care about anything besides DPS). Off the top of my head, the only real nerf listed in these preliminary patch notes was to the Thief’s Larcenous Strike, and just about everything else was a buff. The rate of condition application and AoE spam is already fairly ludicrous to keep up with in PvP formats, and from the look of these notes, some of the worst offenders (Engineers and Necromancers) are receiving even more buffs. My hope is that the actual release sees some of the problem skills toned down for these classes, and that things like the Runes of Perplexity are also brought under control (to help alleviate condition spam in WvW without significantly affecting classes in PvE).

The Purging Flames change, in light of this, still does sound cool, but it makes me a little worried that Anet is hoping to introduce more condition removal and reduction into the game to take care of the condition meta, rather than targeting the problem at its source (the rate of application). It’s all speculation, though, so I guess we’ll see in a month or so.

For those raging, remember that these are just preliminary patch notes, and there’s probably still a lot more to come. To quote directly from the post:

We increased the power of many support skills which weren’t seeing much play.

That line alone could mean any number of things for the Guardian, since I’m fairly sure Purging Flames isn’t the only skill they were talking about. That could be buffs to Consecrations, Shield skills, our Elites, or perhaps even a couple of our Spirit Weapons or Signets, to name some possibilities. The changes to Meditations also show that they’re trying to at least throw offensive Guardians a bone, so we’ll see if any more changes cater to that style.

Based on this preview, I’d say that overall, it looks like an exciting patch for Guardians. Once the condition meta settles down a little bit, I’ll be looking forward to pulling out my Meditation Guardian in SPvP again, and hopefully we’ll see at least some diversification in viable playstyles across the board. My only concern at this point is power creep – they didn’t talk about nerfing very much in the preview, and a lot of things need to be brought down before the game can truly start to be healthy again.

Proteus.6320:

Ran this last night! Hilariously fun and devastating area denial. Played it with the intent to utilize large groups at chokes and it shined very well; basically a bunker type with offensive condition capability which doubles as damage mitigation.

Thanks Soryuju, this thread got me super pumped so I tried it out because I feel a condition bunker type guard was lacking for us. Even in a small roaming setting it was pretty successful; I did some 2v4 and 2v5 with a warrior (surprise) and it was subtle in how much tactical control it gives you over the battlefield. The smarter the opponent, the more you can deny them damaging you.

Here is what I used:
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=V9;4NF-20D3RG-90;9;4J;0JT41;538-58Aa-V8;2bUytbUytC0kA1-q5;2Vn5oao5pap5qa0D06-03;5V0-N;9;9;9;9;9;0V6s5Y

Awesome to hear! My apologies to everyone for not really keeping up with this thread – real life has been a bit busy, but I’ll do my best to be around if there’s still interest in the build. I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if the next patch saw the runes get nerfed, which will probably render this build useless, but it’s still something for people to enjoy while it lasts.

Anyways, responding to some of the points raised in the thread, I’m pretty sure you only proc an interrupt when you manage to catch someone mid-action, but this still includes things like auto-attacks, so it’s fairly manageable to do, especially in large groups (as I mentioned above, you’ll often see clouds of interrupt messages if you throw down a Line of Warding in front of a charging zerg). I also like the idea of Geomancy Sigils in the build and think they’d be a good inclusion. The condition damage from Corruption is still valuable, though, so it might be worth starting a WvW run with Corruption and switching to weapons with Geomancy after you build some stacks.

The racial skills are interesting, and could definitely be a part of a build like this, though I think you should ideally be able to run the build without having to resort to using them. The goal wasn’t to develop a build that only certain Guardians can play, so I’ll probably avoid making any revisions with racial skills included (but if you think racial skills can improve your personal success with the build, more power to you). Proteus’s post about the build’s performance is encouraging, so I do think potential exists within the general pool of available skills and conditions.

To Proteus, just a few questions about your modifications: first, how do you feel the Celestial gear worked out? It’s an interesting option that certainly works with the Staff and Hammer’s nature as power-based weapons, but did you feel that the gain to direct damage was appreciable compared to the loss in healing power and condition damage?

Also, in Honor, I originally included Writ of Exaltation instead of Protective Reviver, figuring it would speed up the proc rate of Permeating Wrath, make it easier to get Protection in the middle of zergs with the Hammer, and increase the general pressure the build can exert on enemy groups. How useful was PR, though, and were you mostly using it in situations where Resolute Healer wouldn’t be effective?

I’m also glad to hear it worked well in small group play, and I feel like you could use the GS and Shield effectively in these situations, too, since their interrupts won’t be as limited by the AoE cap. Besides Staff/Hammer, I think that GS/Hammer, GS/Scepter+Shield, and Hammer/Scepter+Shield could be interesting combinations for small battles.

Finally, if we’re talking small fights, I’d really be curious to see the Spirit Hammer in action with these runes (assuming it works, it would be devastating, and with the 20/0/0/20/30 setup, you could even make the build a proper Spirit Weapon hybrid). Spirit Hammer is already annoying with its knockback every few seconds and knockdown on command, and if the runes proc on its interrupts, it could become a major threat.

Hey guys, thanks for the replies! Let me maybe try frame my early-morning ideas a little better now.

I got curious about the potential of these runes after reading up on Necros using them despite them not working with Fear. A lot of Necromancers have been giving these runes rave reviews, despite the fact that it only works with two of their skills (Wail of Doom and Spectral Grasp, and a lot of people opt not to run the latter). Wail of Doom is a short-range Daze on a 30 second cooldown, and apparently many Necros feel it’s enough to justify running the runes over ones that give general condition duration. Our interrupting options (or at least the ones I listed above) have better range, similar cooldowns, and aren’t constrained by the AoE cap, so if Necros are making it work, I feel like we could at least give it a shot.

Trying to address some of the individual concerns in this thread, I designed the build in the context of large battles because that’s where we have the potential to generate the most interrupts, and that dictated my choice of the Staff and Hammer as weapons. As Shoe said, interrupts happen very frequently when people hit those walls. Throwing down a wall in front of an enemy zerg as they make a push will reliably generate a cloud of interrupt messages on your screen, and using that to spread mass confusion is a something that most other classes aren’t capable of. Doing it without sacrificing your core duties as a Guardian could be very powerful in a meta where conditions are so rampant, if you can pull it off.

For smaller battles, I’d probably opt for a different approach, running some of the interrupts that Bash suggested (Maybe a GS/Hammer combo?), and I’d focus more on Retaliation to complement the high sustained damage of Burning and Confusion. Keep in mind that the Runes of Perplexity also give you 3 free stacks of Confusion on a target once every 15 seconds, in addition to the interrupt effect. I don’t know the duration of these stacks, but if it’s at least 5 seconds base, you’re getting 3 stacks of confusion on a target for 10 out of every 15 seconds. On a similar note, you’ve got at least 50% uptime on the Confusion generated by each interrupt (20 seconds per stack, generated primarily by two skills on 32 second CD’s, so a potential 100% uptime on it if you can keep landing interrupts).

If that still leaves you worried, maybe think of Confusion as a tool to supplement Burning, rather than as the focus of the build. The build still puts out a lot of AoE burning thanks to Permeating Wrath (though sadly, I don’t think 100% Burning duration is possible with the setup I posted), and its Symbols inflict Vulnerability, which can act as a cover condition. Combined with the Guardian’s ample amounts of Retaliation, you ought to be able to keep up a lot of sustained pressure on targets and punish them frequently for using their skills. It’s strange, I grant you, but I don’t think it’s without potential. As stated above, I’d try it myself if I had the means to do so, but I lack the gear, the funds for the gear, and a strong enough computer to get footage of it in action.

As my title states, this idea occurred rather suddenly to me at an unfortunate hour, and since I lack the means to test it myself, I wanted to present it to the Guardian community for consideration.

The general consensus about Guardian condition builds has been that the poor variety of conditions available to the Guardian stifles the potential of a condition build in most serious contexts. A number of Guardian players have done work to demonstrate that potential does exist for such a build, however (see, for example, Foofad’s excellent guide to Burning stickied in this forum).

The recent introduction of the Runes of Perplexity have boosted condition builds to new levels of power in WvW, granting Confusion to classes that previously lacked access to it. I can’t find any recent discussion about how this could impact a Guardian condition build, but I think that the rune set’s 6th effect has a great deal of potential for Guardians, particularly in large battles (e.g. WvW zergs). For reference:

6) +15% Confusion Duration. Causes 10 seconds of Confusion on Interrupt.

To get straight to the point, the 6th effect drops 5 stacks of Confusion per interrupt, it has no internal cooldown, and Guardians can abuse this with some of the best mass-interrupts in the game (specifically, Line of Warding, Ring of Warding, and targeted Sanctuary). These skills are fairly unique in that there is no limit to the number of players who can slam into them, and they have historically been used to great effect in WvW zerg warfare. It sounds appealing, but the question comes down to what you need to sacrifice to make this a possibility, and whether or not it’s worth it.

Here’s a very, very rough sketch of what I had in mind for a build (5:30 AM, remember?). I can’t find a builder that has Perplexity Runes in its database yet, so you’re all just going to have to pretend that they’re there and adjust the condition damage score accordingly.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQJAWSlUgyDXFyMEf4ES2jRCBVwKFxz8gpQjyIA-jUxAYtARLCUesIas6Zioa1NmQALWDA-w

Things I had in mind when putting this together:

-This is a Guardian build first and foremost. In order to be viable for consideration, it needs to be able to survive well at close range and provide support for its allies.

- 20-second Confusion stacks are lovely, but they’re concentrated in two 32-second CD skills and one 120 second CD skill. The build needs good access to Burning to supplement the damage, hence Permeating Wrath and other burning traits/utilities.

-The hardest part, in my opinion – both condition damage and duration are important to this build, since confusion is good for bursting down reckless enemies, but serves as good psychological pressure against attentive ones. I’m not sure I’ve hit a good balance between the two yet, and I lack the gear/funds to do any personal testing. Any input others have is very much welcome.

With that said, here’s the gist of how I envision the build working: in a large battle, you’re a frontliner, keeping yourself and other alive while dropping your wards when blobs of enemies make a push. This enhances the disruptive effect of the Wards and causes it to linger, causing damage, stressing enemy cleansing, and reducing the enemy group’s ability to commit to a full offensive. You’ve got lots of AoE for rapidly proccing Permeating Wrath, and you’re using Empower whenever you can with your Staff/blasting Fire Fields with your Hammer to sustain high Might stacks on yourself and allies. This makes your Confusion very scary when it hits and lets Permeating Wrath keep the pressure high on nearby foes. You’ve got access to the same sort of boons a standard Guardian does, healing on par with Healway builds, and some fairly respectable cleansing built into your traits and utilities. The hope is that sustaining yourself won’t be too difficult when you add control skills and mass Confusion into the mix.

Again, this is 5:30 AM thinking, so let me know if this all just sounds crazy. I’d definitely appreciate any feedback anyone has about this idea, though, since my experience with condition Guardians is nonexistent, and this just seemed like a cool, unique approach to a build that most people, including myself, had written off.

TL;DR: Guardian condition build using Runes of Perplexity to add Confusion to skills like Line and Ring of Warding. The runes give 5 stacks of Confusion per interrupt for 20 seconds each, no internal cooldown. The tentative build has most of the basic features of a standard frontline Guardian, but with the potential for substantial condition pressure. What do you think?

Just guessing, but I think the point the OP’s trying to make has to do with the number of Necros on the Red team. Combine that with the double Necros on Blue team, and you’ve got some fairly absurd condition spam flying around this game. Also, throw what’s likely an S/D Thief into the mix for extra cheese, and you’re just a Spirit Ranger short of the GW2 PvP meta. It’s a fun time to be a bunker!

The result is that Gadget utilities are mostly useless to the Engi, the Tool Kit and Bomb Kit are impractical, and the FT/Grenade Kit will kill you faster than you kill anyone else. In terms of basic weapons, the Rifle’s AoE is limited mostly to the autoattack (good luck using Jump Shot), and their Pistols don’t have the range or volume of conditions to have a serious impact. Shield has little offense, and is mostly for personal defense and combo finishers (not saying that it’s bad, but it’s not helping to offset the Engi’s awkward offense).

What’s left to the Engi is Turrets and Elixirs, and Elixirs are mostly a non-factor due to RNG, limited support capabilities (Toss Elixir R being the exception), and the selfish nature of the buffs outside of the toolbelt skills. The design of turrets is directly related to the third major Engi flaw. Since turrets won’t last for a second in zergfights, Supply Crate is hardly better than a Warrior’s Earthshaker. Sad thing is, it’s still the best option, since Elixir X will paint a target on your head and Mortar is worthless in this sort of combat. A class’s Elite skill usually lends them some sort of unique appeal that can make them worthy of bringing along, but the Engineer has none to speak of. Its chance to specialize at something is being squandered.

What should be done?

Trying to change the Engi from being a jack-of-all-trades class would require huge amounts of work, so I would suggest fixing the second and third problems instead. To address the Engi’s offense, change Retaliation to deal back a percentage of all damage dealt, rather than a fixed number per hit. This is not a new suggestion, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see it implemented eventually, but the Engi gets screwed harder by Retal than any other class in WvW. To fix the Engi’s lack of an Elite for these situations, completely redesign Elixir X into anything else. It’s a lazy skill for using other class’s elites instead of contributing to the Engi’s own identity, and even after it’s been buffed repeatedly, I still don’t know of anyone who uses it. I’m not going to make specific suggestions on what to change it to, but there’s no excuse for it to still exist in its current state.

Anyways, those are my thoughts. Hope I didn’t offend any WvW Engis out there who have had success with their builds in zergs, but I’m of the belief that the Engi needs some retooling before it will be able to truly compete with light and heavy armor classes for a spot in an organized group.

I’ll speak from my experience with Vindicated Honor (vH), a former T1 guild which was previously ranked in the top 10 in NA.

It’s probably not the answer you want to hear, but the Engineer was the only profession I never saw vH run with in WvW. A lot of what Deniara Devious said above applied to our group: we made regular use of all light and heavy armor classes, with sparing use of Rangers and Thieves, but Engineers seemed to be the black sheep. To reinforce this, the only empty section on our guild forums was the Engineer section. No guides, no builds, no questions about the profession from anyone in the guild.

Now, I’m not going to go so far as to say that the Engineer isn’t viable at that level of play, but I will say that an Engineer’s profession design isn’t well-suited to it. I believe the reason for this has three major components:

1) The Engi’s nature as a “jack-of-all-trades” class
2) Limited access to AoE damage, and the way Retaliation punishes so many of the AoE skills available to the Engi
3) Their lack of a viable elite skill in WvW

Starting with the first point, Engineers are known for their versatility, and this can be of great use in S/TPvP or small group roaming in WvW, where what you’re able to bring to the table is limited by your number of allies. In organized groups, however, this ceases to be a factor. In a group of 20+, you ought to have all of your bases covered: Stability, heavy condition cleansing, CC, combo fields/finishers, AoE condition pressure, boon-stripping, stealth, DPS, etc. This is where the Engineer’s limitations begin to show, unfortunately. The Engineer can provide many of these things compared to what an individual class can (I imagine you could make an Engi build that has all of the things I listed above incorporated), but the scale they can apply these effects on and the efficiency with which they can apply them often doesn’t match up to other classes. Some examples taken from this thread:

-Toss Elixir R: a great skill, but outdone by the Warrior’s Battle Standard. In an AoE meta, downed allies in the radius of the thrown Elixir R are still prone to cleaving ground-targeted effects that comprise most of the damage in a GvG or zerg fight. Elixir R’s advantages over BS are largely overshadowed by BS’s ability to res downed players immediately under AoE pressure. Its shorter cast and recharge times are easily mitigated with good communication and by having multiple Warriors in a group.

-Bombs/Healing Bombs: In order to use bombs offensively, an Engineer would need to be in close with the frontliners. Engineers lack the Warrior’s defensive stats and the Guardian’s active mitigation, and if you take skills that allow for that kind of survival, you’ll sacrifice most of the utility you bring to a group. Even if you do survive without specifically building for it, you’re going to be putting a lot of strain on the people in your group who are trying to keep you alive, and putting too much stress on these players is the best way to cause a wipe.

Bringing along healing bombs is a nice thought, but the majority of healing in a group is going to come from players dropping blast finishers on Water Fields. Your positioning with your bombs is far less flexible than the positioning of these fields and finishers, and your healing is much slower. Whether you choose to be up front with the heavies or in back with the casters, there’s some disadvantage to your group (they either have to work to keep you up, or you lose the offensive potential of the bombs).

Elixir Gun: A single Ele brings almost all of the utility of this kit and does it much better. Higher healing, more condition cleanses that aren’t all limited to small area, and blast finishers that don’t throw you out of position. The EG’s 1 and 2 skills are useless in large groups, so unfortunately, they’re not a factor.

Water Fields: Eles and Rangers already provide plenty of these. The Engi’s water fields are low-duration (the longest being 3 seconds) and don’t provide supplementary effects with nearly the same power.

And so on. Most of the utility the Engi can pack into a support build is outdone by other classes. Meanwhile, their offense is awkward and hampered by the sheer number of players involved in large battles, which brings me to point 2. Engineers don’t have access to a ton of AoE, which is king in WvW, and Retaliation wrecks most of what they do have (Grenades, FT). Unfortunately, this pushes them in the direction of a support role, where they’re forced to compete with Eles and Guardians. An Engi does have a nice range of single-target damage and CC options, but as zerg assassins, they’re handily outdone by Thieves, so an organized group is unlikely to make use of these.

Continued…

I’ve actually started using it more recently, because if you time it properly, you can detonate the orb after it passes through a target for an extra spike of damage. The detonation doesn’t do as much as the initial hit, but I like to detonate it if I’m about to swap weapons, since in that case, I won’t be able to take advantage of the lower cooldown on the first half of the skill anyways. The combined damage from the two halves of the skill is actually a decent spike, which can matter in a PvP or WvW context.

For a healing-based Guardian, the skill can heal for roughly 1500 HP per target, which isn’t bad at all. The easiest way to use it is to run near any allies who need healing and detonate the orb immediately after casting it. This will provide a point-blank AoE heal, and if you can catch the maximum of 5 allies in it (most likely in a WvW zerg), that’s 7500 healing every 10 seconds. Not a game-changer, but still a pretty decent effect.

Just to offer some feedback on what you’ve got so far:

Zeal Minor Traits: Rather than just shifting these down, I’d like to see them reworked entirely. I’ve taken issue with these traits since beta, since they’re specific to certain builds and generally underwhelming. If you’re not running a build that’s using symbols frequently, they will do nothing for you, and even if you are, their impact is minimal (for example, the single stack of Vulnerability that Symbolic Exposure gives with each pulse lasts for only 3 seconds). Replace them with anything else – maybe even buff them and combine them into a major trait. But these should not be traits you’re forced to take if you want to invest in Zeal.

Revenge/Strength of the Fallen: These should really be combined into one trait and left alone. It won’t see much use, but Anet seems to like these sort of traits, so I doubt they’ll remove it entirely. Alternatively, remove one trait and add some utility to the other trait, like what they’ve recently done with the downed traits for Engineers and Eles. A reworked Symbol Major trait could fit in here, due to Symbol of Judgment – something like 50% more damage in downed state, and Symbols inflict 2 stacks of 10s Vulnerability per pulse?

Shattered Aegis: I’d agree with you that this one feels a little random in Zeal. I could see moving it to Radiance, though I’d also combine it with Wrathful Spirit, which I feel is one of the more underwhelming Honor traits (3s Retaliation when Aegis ends). Having it give Bleeds could be interesting for condition builds, though I’m not sure how likely that is to happen.

Spirit Weapon Traits: I definitely agree that these need to be combined, and I’d like to see them condensed into the Zeal and Virtue lines exclusively. I like your ideas about which ones to combine, but personally, I’d like to see Eternal Spirit removed and made base functionality for the Weapons. Being on a timer, having a small HP bar, and being destroyed on use makes them the most fragile pets in the game, and having to trait around these issues is silly.

Focused Mastery: I’d also like to see this in Valor, and it’d be nice to see it pick up an additional effect. Maybe another on-block effect, to synergize with Might of the Protector.

Scepter Power: I honestly don’t see Smite ever becoming a symbol, so unless the devs surprise us with one of these patches, I’d rather just have the Zeal Minors reworked. This trait already gives double the standard damage boost, anyways, and I don’t think it needs improved.

Kindled Zeal: I think this should be moved down to the Minor Grandmaster slot, like many similar traits amongst other classes. All Guardians have burning, so it conveys some benefit regardless of build, and if we ever do get a viable condition spec, having it slightly lower in the line will afford them some more flexibility.

Chilling Symbols: I have to admit, thematically, I’ve never been a fan of chill on the Guardian, and if symbols were going to get some sort of snare effect, I’d prefer it to be Cripple. That said, I could see such a trait fitting nicely as a new Major Grandmaster trait in Zeal, perhaps combined with Symbolic Power’s 10% damage boost.

Healer’s Retribution: I agree that this one is a little weird right now, but I’m not sure Fury is the right buff. Inner Fire is in the same tier and already gives us a source of Fury, and it’s my opinion that the Guardian’s limited access to Fury is an important balancing factor for our offensive builds. It would be interesting to see this reworked into another trait to promote condition builds, but I don’t have a suggestion ready for how to do this.

Shimmering Defense: Shattered Aegis could certainly fit here, though I wouldn’t mind them just reworking this trait into something useful and maybe raising the damage threshold to 50%.

Searing Flames: I agree that an ICD reduction is necessary, but I’d start at 10 seconds, to put it on par with Sigil of Nullification, and then cut it further if it’s still not seeing use. I don’t perceive Guardians as a profession meant to break bunkers.

Inscribed Removal/Perfect Inscriptions: Besides a stat buff to PI, I’d like to see these combined into one Grandmaster trait.

Powerful Blades: Any sort of bonus. Torment, CD reduction, combo finishers, etc. In TPvP, most teams don’t bother with Guardians that aren’t bunkers, and it’d be nice to give them an incentive to.

Retributive Armor: A stat buff would be nice, but adding something less passive to the trait would be even better, in my opinion. Major traits should give more than just a boost to numbers, since they help define a build.

Focused Mind: I’d like to see this combined with Meditation Mastery, since it only benefits half of our Meditations at the moment.

Those are my thoughts, anyways. Looking forward to seeing your posts about Honor and Virtues!

@ Lord Trejgon

Since you mentioned Orr, I assume you’re referring to PvE, and RoJ is definitely effective there, since monsters don’t usually try to circle around you and move in fairly predictable patterns. Most of my concerns about the skill pertain to PvP and WvW, since like Lucentfir said, trying to fire the skill while turning usually means it will fail. When it fails, it either goes on a 3-second cooldown, which hurts if you were trying for a clutch blind or cleanse, or it goes on full cooldown if you’re unlucky (here the projectile fires, but somehow fails to track the target and disappears at your feet).

@ Lucentfir

I do agree that reducing the cast time is the primary fix for this skill, but I suggested changes to the bouncing mechanics because blinds and condition removals are effects best used with precision, and sometimes using RoJ amounts to randomly flinging these effects into a group of players and hoping that things go the way you want. Using the skill reliably means using it exclusively when only one or two other players are nearby, and this strikes me as bad design.

Linguistically Inept.6583:

i disagree with you using deathly swarm as a comparison

… but i would like to see it provide a longer regen

Would you mind expanding on why you think Deathly Swarm is a poor comparison? The skills seem mechanically similar to me (albeit not identical) and I find that when I play Necro, I use Deathly Swarm in a similar fashion to RoJ. My point was that the unreliable nature of RoJ’s support will often make DS more effective at cleansing and blinding, and that there aren’t many things RoJ does better. RoJ may arguably be stronger in 1v1 situations if you get a clear shot with it, though, since it can double cleanse and stack some vulnerability if traited. Personally, I’d like the skill to have more of an advantage than that.

I agree that longer Regeneration would be nice for the skill, however. At the current 3 seconds per hit, it’s only worth a few hundred HP every 25 seconds. I’d prefer to see issues with the cast time and bouncing dealt with first, but more healing would be welcome.

Since there’s been a decent amount of discussion about polishing the Guardian’s Torch and Shield recently, I thought I’d bring our Focus up for discussion as well. Specifically, I’d like to talk about its #4 skill, Ray of Judgment.

Now, don’t get me wrong – this isn’t meant to be a whine thread. I love using the Focus in PvP, and Ray of Judgment is great when it works like you hope it will. However, it seems to me that getting RoJ to work properly is disproportionately difficult for the benefits it conveys. This difficulty comes from two primary sources:

1) The cast time. 3/4 of a second doesn’t sound too unusual, but since RoJ is a projectile dependent upon your character’s facing, the cast can fail if your opponent moves at too sharp of an angle to you while you’re casting. This can put the skill on a full cooldown without allowing it to properly activate, and it can be frustrating trying to get the skill to fire at all during teamfights where both you and your target are constantly moving.

2) The bounces. RoJ is capable of bouncing to both allies and enemies, and it seems to prioritize its bounces by whoever is closest to its current target. Unfortunately, when you’ve got multiple players involved in a fight, these positions change rapidly, and trying to get RoJ to bounce to a particular target can be difficult, especially with the 3/4 second cast. Even when it doesn’t cancel, using this skill with precision outside of small fights is often an exercise in futility.

Perhaps these difficulties could be justified if RoJ had a powerful effect. The Blind and the cleansing are nice when they hit where you intend, but they’re not outstanding when compared to the other AoE blinds and cleanses available to Guardians. The 3 second Regen RoJ provides is more of an afterthought than anything. The projectile these effects are attached to is slow-moving and does mediocre damage, and it can lose bounces when used at long range. Also, the skill only seems to bounce 3 times after the initial hit, rather than the listed 4.

To reinforce my points, let’s compare Ray of Judgment to a similar skill on the Necromancer’s offhand Dagger, Deathly Swarm:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deathly_Swarm

Deathly Swarm has a 1/4 second cast time, slightly higher base damage, twice the Blind duration, transfers conditions instead of removing them, can copy up to 3 conditions onto each target, and enjoys a CD that’s 7 seconds lower than Ray of Judgment’s. RoJ’s advantages are the potential to cleanse conditions from allies, a longer range, and the ability to grant 3s Regeneration boons. Additionally, RoJ can hit one enemy twice in small fights. Both skills are slow-moving projectiles susceptible to being outmaneuvered or dodged.

Other points to consider: Ray of Judgment cannot cleanse conditions from allies precisely in any sort of teamfight, and it loses bounces at range, so these advantages over DS are dampened. The Regen boon, as previously stated, is negligible due to its very short duration. RoJ’s blinds are also less reliable, since the skill may bounce only to allies after the initial hit. In the majority of situations, RoJ is completely inferior to DS. DS is easier to use, more reliable, has a more potent effect, and can be used more frequently.

This is not to say that RoJ cannot be useful, but the power of the skill seems misaligned with the effort required to use it effectively. So what could be done about it?

1) Reduce the cast time of the skill. A 3/4 second cast is just too long for a skill that requires proper facing to use, and effects like Blind and cleansing are less effective when they aren’t available on-demand. Make it 1/4 second, like Deathly Swarm.

2) Additionally, make the skill only bounce between enemies to improve its reliability, and change the cleansing effect. Either make the skill cleanse one condition from the user for every enemy hit, or have it cleanse one condition from allies who are near each enemy struck by the skill. The former change would still leave RoJ considerably weaker than DS, so adding another effect may be necessary to bring it up to par.

Optional: Bring back GW1 Ray of Judgment. Please?

There are plenty of other potential fixes as well. Speed up the projectile, reduce the cooldown, add more effects onto the projectile, etc. These are just my own thoughts about the skill, and I welcome any disagreement about the problems or my recommended changes. It could be that I just need to L2P. However, the recent condition-heavy metagame has made every failed RoJ hurt much more than it used to, and I’d love to see the skill get some improvements.

Excalibur.9748:

I’d like to see a sigil to add chill on crit hit (2s icd, 5s duration)

I wouldn’t get your hopes up too high, seeing as this type of sigil already exists in the game, and its duration/ICD don’t allow for permachill. Personally, I think that’s a good thing.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Ice

CMF.5461:

Sounds pretty spot on honestly Soryuju.

Good insight on the spirit rangers, because without those 2 pets (sun and storm) he wont be stacking as much burning and getting extra damage, can they be AOEed easy enough like our spirit weapons? Or are they fairly durable.

My personal impression is that they’re more durable than our Spirit Weapons, but I couldn’t give you numbers on it. I only have a vague idea because I honestly try to avoid fighting Spirit Rangers 1v1 in tournies. Even if I do manage to take them down, it takes way too much time for me to do it, and that gives the Ranger plenty of time to get help from their teammates. It’s much more efficient for me to bring a buddy along to kill the Ranger and his pets before the other team’s roamers arrive. In a duel setting like this one, though, that’s obviously not a factor, so 1v1ing with a proper build may be more viable.

In regard to the condition Mesmers, be careful using melee AoE against them, since many will trait to inflict a number of conditions on clone death. Whirling Wrath may clear the clones, but you could spike yourself with conditions in the process, and those sort of Mesmers can have two or three more clones up in a couple seconds. Personally speaking, I’ve always found our ranged weapons to be the fastest and safest way to deal with condition Mesmers, since the clones can’t inflict conditions on you if they aren’t near you when you die. It also gives you more time to respond to bleed-inflicting projectiles from the clones, and makes it easier to conserve your dodges for big attacks, like Chaos Storm or the iDuelist’s volley.

If you’re fighting a Shatter Mesmer, AoE and melee is safer, and you just need to keep stun breaks/cleanses ready for their combo. Watch for the clone rush, remove CC, and dodge toward the clones. The Mesmer will be exposed and at their weakest after a Shatter, so push your advantage and force them to burn their CD’s. Standard Mesmer counter-tactics apply (calling target on the real one, watching for strafing/dodging/healing, turning off monster names in your options, etc.)

About Necros, aggressive play is the best strategy. It’s way too difficult to try to cleanse and heal through the Necro’s endless waves of AoE condition spam, so the best way to handle them is to DPS them down. Be careful with using any burst damage you have while they still have Death Shroud available, since after the recent patch, Spectral Armor + DS can absorb huge amounts of damage, and builds investing in Soul Reaping get Spectral Armor automatically at 50% HP. The good news is that your average condition Necro isn’t especially strong in DS. They have access to small amounts of Bleed, Chill, Fear, Torment, and potentially Immobilize, but Burning from Dhuumfire is going to remain their primary source of damage. Anticipating Doom to avoid Fear and the subsequent Terror damage is critical for keeping pressure on the Necro, and moderate, well-timed cleansing should be able to keep you in the fight until they leave DS. A Necro without Life Force is a squishy Necro – I don’t know if the tourney rules will permit them to build any LF beforehand, but if not, come out swinging to put on lots of pressure from the start, while dodging the Marks and the other unpleasant AoE’s they’ll probably try to throw at you early on.

For Spirit Rangers, the general consensus is that their Spirits need to die first. Try to take out the offensive spirits (Sun and Storm) first. Doing so will severely hinder the Ranger’s offensive capabilities, and will make taking out the Stone Spirit and Spirit of Nature much less stressful. Once the Spirits are dead, you’re basically fighting a Ranger without utilities or an Elite. Speccing for some AoE is recommended to kill the Spirits efficiently, but past that, stick to the same strategy as above – strong DPS and cleansing to pressure your target until it’s dead.

All of this advice comes from my personal experience, so others may disagree, but hopefully at least some of it will be useful. Best of luck!