It is my belief that this pathing/LOS issue with the teleports that you don’t agree with is a limiting factor to curb the power level on such abilities, whether or not it was intended by the devs. Again, they should work 100% of the time in the right spots.
what a ridiculous belief
you are comfortable with how thing are so that is how things should work whether the devs intend it or not?
you just lost all credibility with that one.
They need to make the abilities work or not work consistently regardless of terrain.
Then they need to give us a DS 5 ability that can block any and all movement enhancing abilities on a player for 6-8 seconds.
I think you’re misunderstanding the entire statement. Having teleports work anywhere and everywhere would only make it better for the classes that already have teleports and make it worse for classes have bad ones or none. I do believe that devs intended this but that doesn’t matter if they did or didn’t. If teleports were more amazing than they are now, then they would need to consider giving every class an instant teleport for balancing purposes. That should not be the case. There would be less class diversity.
The way they work now is that you need to be in a certain spot in some cases for them to teleport into amazing spots. These need to work 100% of the time, they don’t seem to work 100% since this recent patch. It should be 100%. Learn those spots and teleports are very powerful. Making them more powerful would make balance worse.
Flesh Wurm shares the same mechanic as Shadowstep as a ground-target based Shadowstep and always has.
Anyways, here’s a small clip taken from some of the testing on Khylo. There are many more and many hours was put into testing other spots as well.
http://www.twitch.tv/loljumper/c/2419557
Just by judging from that video, the Shadowstep return from the point across the stairs didn’t work because of the line-of-sight with the top of the stairs. I know that it’s still supposed to work but maybe that’s what bugged/changed about it now. The times that it did work it seemed you weren’t being LOS’d by the top of the stairs.
Without giving classes boon removal, I do agree that there needs to be more endurance hate not in the form of Weakness. Classes like the Necromancer would be ideal for this kind of mechanic since they themselves have no reliable access to vigor or endurance generation themselves.
Flesh wurm is a LOS ignoring teleport that can teleport you up cliffs and behind walls. It’s different from your targetable ones.
This is just blatant misinformation. It works exactly like every other teleport in the game in regards to pathing/LOS.
Tenderly, how do you treat this game? When I see a placed teleport similar to flesh wurm I think of other games. Other games all follow an intuitive and reasonable system of these kind of teleports being limited by range but completely ignoring pathing and LOS. That is how it’s supposed to work for me, yet they work in a very weird way. Judging by your responses you don’t mind it at all, heck you’re promoting it.
Is it the case where people want to see the game being this special snowflake so they can think of how special and cool they are that they play it while hating on the other giants out there in the market? Is this the reason for people to promote these clearly bugged mechanics?
Please try to not use the word “intended” in your posts since the devs seem to not know if stuff is intended or not themselves.
I’d rather just keep it on topic and still support the idea that having the teleports work almost anywhere like they do in other games would actually make it worse for the Necromancer and other classes with worse/no teleports, not better.
It is my belief that this pathing/LOS issue with the teleports that you don’t agree with is a limiting factor to curb the power level on such abilities, whether or not it was intended by the devs. Again, they should work 100% of the time in the right spots.
There you go with the L2P style, sigh……
I personally do not find it broken to have teleports not work where they weren’t intended to work.
Have you seen the devs reaction on the SOTG when they are asked if something is intended? Is that convincing enough for you? Is the excuse of the lack of fixing on the devs part enough of a reason for the players to accept all those bugs as intended and promote them?
To me, this would create havoc where classes with teleports would outshine classes without them more so than they already do.
So perma evades, perma stealth and perma stunbreakers as well as other stuff in this game is not chaotic enough?
Yea the teleport locations are very L2P. Anyone can learn them. I also believe they function like this to actually put a limit on teleports. Your suggestion is to have them work almost anywhere as long as they are within the confines of the ability. And that’s understandable since Flesh Wurm is arguably the worst teleport because of it’s non-instant nature. I just don’t agree.
I don’t find that the locations themselves are bugs. The recent post about them not working 100% of the time when before they did I can agree with. They should be consistent and this issue should be fixed.
Perma evades/stealth/stunbreakers are a whole other issue entirely. And I’m not sure where you got perma evades or stunbreakers from.
It’s not really perma evade, but there is a high uptime on certain classes, not gamebreaking.
Perma stealth is annoying to deal with but not impossible, especially since in a tournament game it does hardly anything at all to win the match.
And you’re actually agreeing with me when you say that “they” are chaotic enough. Changing the teleports to work almost anywhere makes it more chaotic and unbalanced in some cases. It’s hard to see when Necros only get one legitimate ground targeted forward teleport that’s arguably worse than what other classes have. I’ve been maining Necro since BWE 1.
I’m with Iceflame on this. Necro’s have been dealing with issues like this for ages and no one listened to their complaints. I say suck it up and learn to play around it like they have. Mesmer and Thief are still among the most mobile classes in the game.
If you want to make it a positive thing, make it as relearning your class or the maps all over again like it’s brand new! Want to be all doom and gloom? Wait around for 8 months til they finally get to fix it the way Warrior and Necro had to wait for fixes.
This change isn’t breaking the game, it’s making you think differently. Different concepts entirely.
I disagree, and I main Necro.
The flesh wurm necro teleport works exactly like every other teleport in the game as far as pathing goes.
Spectral walk works differently but that is to our advantage.
In my opinion Necros do not need more mobility, but do need to receive a little love in a few other areas.
Hello again there Tenderly. We seem to live in different worlds when it comes to an image of a properly working quality game. I am not able to understand your point of view. Those keep cliffs work that way and I am aware that you need a specific angle to make it work, I see it as broken because for example henge terrain that is on the same map doesn’t require these telepathic abilities. I see the keep zone as one with pathing issues.
Then you seem to ignore the problem where sometimes you get teleported to the wall, sometimes you get teleported only a distance of 200 and sometimes you don’t get teleported anywhere at all, that was pretty much what that thread is all about.
Not once did I mention that it wasn’t broken to have a teleport fail when using it in the same spot where it previously worked 100% of the time. That’s what the thread was talking about. It wasn’t talking about having teleports work in spots where previously they had not.
I personally do not find it broken to have teleports not work where they weren’t intended to work. All teleports are essentially pathing algorithms that trace the ground to your intended teleport location. It’s really a learn to play issue of finding the correct locations. All the players that know these locations have tested them to work.
It could be argued that teleports should work if your intended spot is within with range of yourself and within the confines with the range in the ability. But that’s not how the teleports have been working in this game. To me, this would create havoc where classes with teleports would outshine classes without them more so than they already do.
If we were able to go in and out of ds that fast we would have 100% fury uptime pretty easily as well as mitigating all sorts of damage and of you took the stability trait you would have 100% stability uptime too. Seems far to op.
Cooldowns can be placed on those abilities.
It’s totally intended and we all need crystal balls or telepathic abilities to know which cliffs would let you reliably port onto them using the wurm and which won’t…..
Actually you can just get into an empty map and start testing the locations like every other player wanting to know where the locations are.
It’s like talking and providing proof to a wall……….
I am using flesh wurm behavior as a >>>>reference<<<< to your new added problem. It is a pathing problem and it messes with a LOT of stuff….. You say other teleports don’t work on that cliff? Well spectral walk does…. You don’t mind spells acting different on similar terrain(flesh wurm teleport works on henge fine and a lot of other places too) and don’t see it as a bug? What is there to be discussed then?
Again, the problem has always existed but it just wasn’t affecting your precious classes, welcome to the club…..
Providing proof would be to use the teleport-on-ledge properly from the correct spot over and over and having it fail randomly for no reason without any outside variables messing up the equation.
And Spectral Walk works differently than all other teleports. No matter what is between you and your original starting location, you will be teleported back 100% of the time.
At it’s core the sPvP in this game revolves around you hitting your big skills and having your opponent miss theirs. Build and strategy come into play but are based around the fact that you have to hit your skills and have your opponent miss theirs to win an engagement.
You can have the build advantage versus another player but it wouldn’t matter since if you missed your abilities and an opponent hit theirs, you will lose.
Whether or not it’s harder or easier to do so is entirely reliant on balance.
WvWvW, small fights
- downed players and CC
You can’t pull downed player to you but he can still stop you from pulling his ressing partner (if he is in front of him)
Suggestion: Remove this invisible(CC) barrier from DP
- Obstructed and Spectral Grasp
INVISIBLE WALL
- Death Shroud
I would like to see recharge time(small icons above the LF) on DS skills before i transform
If Big Bomb affects downed players and knocks them back then every pull/knockback in the game should do the same.
Spectral grasp randomly fails from a random obstructed when there’s nothing, not even elevation, between you and your target.
Death Shroud should not only show you your Death Shroud ability cooldowns, but also all other cooldowns while in Death Shroud. It’s stupid to have to guess when my heal is off cooldown while low and under pressure in death shroud.
Here’s a video demonstrating the flesh wurm teleport problem:
http://www.twitch.tv/iceflame1988/c/2418886
This was only an example of the forest map, other maps also have a ton of spots like this.
If you want proof of it being bugged pre patch, you can check the necro forums or search my pre patch streams(highly doubt anyone would do that but if you want proof, it’s there). It’s been like this for a very long time.
To the people who were declining the existence of this problem, please try to refrain yourselves from spreading false information when bugs are discussed since it’s very important to make it clear that something is broken in the game.
I still do not understand how people can use the lack of dev response as an excuse to promote bug exploiting as build diversity, more interesting play for spectators and skill gameplay. Promoting bugs is like defending something OP and displays the sad state of the design that this game has. Pretty much promoting a low quality product.
I’m actually surprised it worked on the 3rd attempt. But every single one of those attempts was not the proper way every teleport works to get on the ledge.
You’re actually supposed to be on the (left or right) edge of the bottom of the stairs. The edge closer to the bridge. Then aim the teleport on the closest edge of the ledge.
After leaving deathshroud, there is sometimes roughly 1 second of all the necromancer’s skill being inactive. This happens while you are not in deathshroud and happens completely randomly. It was introduced something like 3 patches ago when the weapon swapping in deathshroud was also inadvertently prohibited.
Please fix this. Necromancers aren’t exactly amazing right now and both of these annoyances really cap the powerlevel on Necromancer.
Thank you.
Increasing our fears from 1 second to 2 second can go a long way. They would actually be good CC tools. As it stands now, fear is the most countered CC in the game since stun breaks, stability, and condition removal all counter it.
It doesn’t help that condition necros have to use fear to kill their target or prevent the stomp/rez where say an Engineer can use burning to kill and other skills to interrupt stomp/rez.
If people are actually running rangers on the side point now, the competition is definitely weaker
I apologize, but if you’d like to catch up on the current meta and see what the top teams run right now, there are a multitude of recent tournaments recorded and shoutcasted on twith.tv. Necro is near non-existent.
There have been a numerous amount of patches since you’ve played 4-5 months ago.
I agree Bhawb, and I was talking about high-tier play, Necros are perfectly fine in low-tier!
Other classes can just do it so much better!
But also, right now a back-point BM Ranger is good for high-tier play as a defender. Their only movement skill is the number 2 on sword. They have swiftness from a random attack on Raven. But the reason they bunker very well and have amazing team fighting is
- burning
- pet damage
- spirit of rebirth,
- quickness stomps/rez (a bit weaker now)
Daze/dodge with shortbow variant, and more condis with axe/torch sword/dagger variant.
On top of bunkering versus two very well with
- evades
- two types of constant healing over time
- 4 condi-removal every 10 seconds,
- prot on dodge, prot on trait proc
- vigor
It’s not only the mobility that determines a good back-point.
Our stability, while very accessible, won’t prevent you from get neutralized by a good player.
It is possible to get nearly-perma protection, by using two 15% prot runes, 20% boon duration from traits, spectral cooldown trait, spectral wall (running through it twice), spectral armor, well cooldown trait, prot on wells trait, with well of blood + a well of your choice, and 15 points in soul reaping.
At most you’ll have rgen + prot and any boon strip will negate the build unfortunately.
Still fun in low-tier PvP though.
Something like this I put together for the sake of the post
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=;0_-3-0;0IFI084-K-K0;9;6JTJ;413-17B39-U;1U;1pJICpcW59cP
Plus or minus traits that you like, there’s around 15 points to spare.
I’m looking at the current leaderboards and unless some players have gotten a lot better in the 4-5 months since I played last, the competition in NA looks a little softer than it used to be.
A lot has changed since 4-5 months ago. Back then, Necro was actually wanted for at least the 30/30/10 power wells build. Players that were just OK before have become much better.
There are certainly less players playing now, but that just means that the higher-tiered players and mid-tier players play the same top teams more often. Which breaks groups after losses more oft than not due to playing the same top team over and over. Players not wanting to queue because “X team is playing right now” and you’ll only match up against them every queue, but I digress.
Let’s not compare ourselves or any bunker build on any class to a guardian. Guardians are the best mid-point defenders hands down. Lets specifically compare to a close-point defender where viability should be a possibility.
You’re mistaken if you think a necro bunker can’t survive in high tier pvp. They’re just not as effective as guardians. It’s not a survivability issue though.
I would certainly love to see a Necro bunker defending back-point vs any high tier team in NA right now. Because when I queue tournies it’s a team from the top 25 on leader boards.
And when I say high tier, any decent team in the top 50 of the leader boards. You will get neutralized, back-capped when you try to help mid, and die too fast vs two of them to receive support in time.
Necro is by far my favorite class. More power to them. I have over 2300 PvP games as this class. 1500 hours played total. I want to see it have any viable build for top tier play as much as the next Necro. I’m not trying to deter a Necro bunker build at all. I just wish it was just as viable as say a Ranger BM back-point is right now.
It’s very easy to fall into the trap of "this build is good or that build is good".
These types of statements are relative.
In a low-tier PvP game, there are certainly Necro bunker builds that could withstand 3 people long enough for team support to arrive.
On the other hand, playing in a high-tier game, a Necro bunker build is not good enough and will either get neutralized or killed rather quickly.
And IMO it’s only ever good enough to run in a close-point defender anyway, if ever.
So when speaking about a build and how good or effective it is, it’s very important to state where it was successful.
This goes for any build for any class.
The fear-dot stability stomp 0/30/10/0/30 is a good build to play in high tier PvP games, but at this moment Necro is just sub-par compared to what an HGH Engi can provide to those teams. High tier players will lock the Necro down before his life force can generate since it’s an easy target to train. At the same time, this build is fine and works well in almost every other PvP setting.
Then make life siphoning traits scale with healing power (life siphoning skills already do)
No, they don’t currently scale with healing power. Not even a little.
There are only 4 siphon Necro skills:
Deadly Feast
Life Leech
Life Siphon
Signet of the LocustAll scale with healing power except I think Life Leech. I have tested in the past and Life Siphon and SotL scale with healing power (the healing portion of the skills), and Deadly Feast I never tested because it is an underwater skill which nobody cares about but apparently the wiki says it does.
However none of the Life Siphon traits (Vampiric, Bloodthirst, Vampiric Master, Vampiric Precision, Vampiric Rituals) scale with healing power at all and is just a flat number.
Apologies, I misread your post, you said skills scale with healing power, I meant the traits do not.
Then make life siphoning traits scale with healing power (life siphoning skills already do)
No, they don’t currently scale with healing power. Not even a little.
I like both of those ideas, but this is assuming that the devs actually care about Necro.
Source – April 30th Patch.
sPvP Version:
Siphon Soul – Applies a condition that is stronger than poison but weaker than burning which Life Siphons your target. Heals you and your minions every second for a % amount of health per condition on the target. This heals life while in Death Shroud. This condition is unaffected by Epidemic.
60 second cooldown
1 second cast
7 second duration
Has a base damage that scales with condition damage.
Has a small base heal that scales somewhat with +healing
An animation that is unique and clearly visible
Increases the strength of Life Siphon traits
Provides more survival for yourself and the AoE on minions in Teamfights
Promotes bunker Necro as a possible build
Promotes more Berserker-Type Necros
I’ve found that right now there is a bug with the melee minions in the game.
They sometimes just do not auto-attack at all. Flesh Golem gets bugged the most.
While a little condescending, this is a video displays the bug perfectly.
Source – 2100 sPvP games as Necro.
These builds are fine but I wouldn’t go around telling new Necros to PvP to not use Greater Marks.
It is absolutely essential if anyone wants to use staff. There is no way that staff is worth using without it, no matter how much you try and justify it.
I’m sorry.
This is an oldy but a goody. This build requires the necromancer to be right on top of the capture point for maximum bleed stacks.
Can also consider changing hemophilia to Weakening Shroud for another 3-stack of bleed burst.
So the ideal rotation is something along the lines of:
Staff 2, staff 3, dodge roll forward, geomancy sigil, Dagger 5, Dagger 2, Deathshroud 3, Epidemic, Staff 5
The off-targets should now have 25 stacks of bleed and some poison on them while being Fear-dotted.
Of course that is ideal, but the main point is to do 5 of the 7 sources of 3-stack AoE bleeds as fast as possible to everyone on a capture point and Epidemic for 25-stack of bleeds on off-targets.
So a quick rotation can be:
Spectral Walk while running in, Staff 2, Dodge roll, geo sigil, Deathshroud 3, Dagger 2or5, Epidemic, Spectral Walk out
Some Tournament PvP Vidoes of Necros doing this are always fun to watch. Shoutout to Gibbly and Well Whale Well (RIP) as it’s similar to what they have been doing for quite a while.
Thanks for posting!
(edited by Tenderly.7019)
Please don’t ever use staff in tPvP unless you run Greater Marks in Death Magic. Staff isn’t worth using without it.
Source – Over 2000 PvP Games as Necro.
If I find one mistake in this Gibbly, that’s it. Our relationship is over.
I think that there should be a separate leaderboard that calculates SoloQ only. Without removing the current SoloQ functionality, this would give SoloQuers a way to measure up against a premade and not feel like they have forsaken their ranking in pvp on a leaderboard that’s really meant to calculate team-based play.
No such thing as half-way cruuk
I just want to post here because Taym.
Thank you for your time.
One thing you have to remember is that if you want to play in tournaments, Signet of Undeath is why most players want to bring a Necromancer to the team. Spectral grasp would probably be the first candidate to suffer removal.
Also, be very careful about where the enemy thief is located on the map and always call this out to your teammates and vice versa. All good team do this. You have very low toughness as you know so they can kill you in their backstab burst very quickly if you are not prepared with blinding well and/or deathshroud. Especially in team fights. Good thieves will just shortbow out of blinding well and backstab afterword as well.
Corrupt Boon conditions are a static durations regardless of the boon affected. The fear is 1 second (not taking into account your own condition duration). In my opinion this utility is the second most useful for tournament play after Signet of Undeath. By far the best removal of stability in the game. I personally run 20% reduced cooldown on corruption specifically for this. The amount of stomps you can interrupt will save your teammates more than you can count.
In conclusion, it’s a very viable build as far as SPvP goes, but some changes might be necessary for high level tournament play.
Thanks for sharing.
I’m not a prevalent forum poster but I personally have played necro 90% of my time in GW2 since BWE1. Almost rank 50 in Spvp but have stopped that 2 months ago. 1500 total hours played. My favorite class in this game by far.
But my gripe with death shroud and necros in general actually (as it’s the same problem), is the scaling. Some skills seem to require it to be good and others have poor scaling. The only life siphon skill that scales is Dagger #2.
The rate at which death shroud scales seems to get worse the higher death shroud you have. The rate of the auto-drain is a static percentage so each tick increases with the more maximum you have. This is why I agree with your analysis regarding stacking more vitality / Soul reaping to increase maximum death shroud having diminishing returns.
The high base vitality along with death shroud supports the philosophy of necros being able to take more hits. This somehow is supposed to justify us not having many or great escape/mobility abilities. In reality, the survivability we get from this doesn’t compare to the survivability other classes receive from their escape/mobility abilities.
So in my opinion it’s really a scaling issue overall and attrition can be very viable when there is better scaling!
TL:DR;
WTB reasonable Life Siphon and Death Shroud scaling please!
I would like this video if it weren’t difficult to watch.
The quick cuts, zoom-ins and the cutting-off of the UI bugged me greatly.
Just as I was enjoying the action, one of the above would happen and completely ruin the experience.
Good enough play though. Wish some of the opponents were slightly better.
Thanks for posting.
Fool of a tuk! cutting off the UI? i mean come on man you should know the move that’s used? zoom ins are useful in terms of explaining what actually occurs and quick cuts are use for transitions.
The reason why it seems like the opponents are bad is because the person in the vide made him look bad however I do admit some of them were bad but the player himself is probably even better than them?
It’s more cutting off the boons, conditions, and HP bars than skills used. You can still see the skill without the UI.
The simple white text that was used sparingly was good enough to explain what occurs. Zoom-ins disrupt the action and mess with the view of the battle. They actually make it harder to tell what was going on as it takes the eyes more time to adjust afterword.
The cuts for different fights are fine and they are needed since they happen at different times obviously, but making cuts in the middle of fights again disrupted the flow of battle.
I would like this video if it weren’t difficult to watch.
The quick cuts, zoom-ins and the cutting-off of the UI bugged me greatly.
Just as I was enjoying the action, one of the above would happen and completely ruin the experience.
Good enough play though. Wish some of the opponents were slightly better.
Thanks for posting.
Just a tip, only use the Bone Minions for their Boom Boom otherwise they are the worst of them.
The point was that all melee minions suffer from the bug, bone minions and jagged horrors need love too.
It’s not just flesh golem, it’s all of the melee minions. Shadow Fiend and Bone Minions seemingly have the same bug associated with them.
WTB F2 attack button.
I’ll pay gems for it.
The easiest way to get it back on track is to hit auto attack twice or use your charge. He will then begin attacking a majority of the time.
The best way I found to have them attack again is to switch your auto attack to another target while the first is not dead. Our auto attack is apparently supposed to be the rangers “pet attack” button. It’s not full proof but they will most of the time attack again.
But it’s an intermittent bug, they just do as they please. I was really surprised this wasn’t fixed in the last patch.
(edited by Tenderly.7019)
Cruuk still has his perma-stealth and 100% crit out of stealth now always.
All is right in the world.
Necro’s use bleeds for damage(because they have no poison/fire with high dmg).
-Do the overall damage top rangers? No. Rangers have poison(which also blocks heals) and bleeds at the same time.
Bro, do you even necro?
(edited by Tenderly.7019)
I like the build you are using, it’s refreshing to see those utilities and weapon combos. I saw the build you mentioned in another thread. A+
Though the players you fought weren’t good. And that made some of the fights little boring to watch =(
And there are parts of the video that made me cringe, like the complete lack of dodging downstates.
Thanks for putting yourself out there though, still worth the time to watch the video, mostly for the build you use.
I know, I do it as well, but it’s never been clarified as intended, even though we’ve asked many times.
The only reason I think that it is intended or they are leaving it in the game is because Foot in the Grave stability is not even worth taking without DS stomp/revive in my opinion.
That first power build looks promising. I just tried it in a few games and I actually feel like I was contributing. A little squishy for my tastes, though. What are the limitations of this build? What classes will typically give me the most trouble?
It’s a high damage build with good power and good condition damage since it’s meant to use with carrion amulet. It runs double wells with signet of undeath. It was designed to be played within a tournament structure in team fights, with good communication and peeling from teammates.
Backstab thieves will instantly kill you without any deathshroud. At high level play though, premade teams have learned to target and kill necros first and this build was one of the reasons why necros are generally the first target in a team fight. Left alone, this necro build will crush a teamfight on a regular sized node.
Powerr invented, protected, and used build #2 extensively with his team.
Sorry to be that guy, but Powerr didn’t invent this build, nor did he even play it correctly. Going into staff and spamming 2 3 4 5 isn’t a good way to play necro ever.
It was Jaja who came up with the build.
And the build hasn’t been viable for a long time.
Functionality they have denied us in DS include:
*Stomp
*Revive
You can still stomp and revive in DS by entering DS and hitting the stomp/revive keybind extremely fast.
My DS button is “T” and stomp/revive is “F”.
By rolling my finger across “T” then “F”, I am able to stomp or revive a player.
Same problem, lags and rubberbands for 1 of more second every second. It’s unplayable
Same thing here. Was perfectly fine before the patch. Now I get .5 seconds lag every 2 seconds. Only noticeable in combat. Checked every internet network problem on my end, everything works perfectly.
Tracert on the ip from “/ip” there are serious issues with 150+ms and timeouts.
It’s something on Arenanets end.
Also opened every gaming port, 443 6110 6600 that players have been talking about on various forums.