Guild Wars 2

@ drarnor berserkers stances is 10 seconds immunity every 60 seconds at most, there is no -20% cooldown for stances if I ’m not mistaken.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

This “Boon” would not increase in duration based on Boon duration and would have low access to it, say from a defensive skill in the 60-75second cool down range. So it wouldn’t be spammable or anything either.

Still it does not remove the fact that it has no countermove on the power skill of the same type. Deflect damage and send it back immediately. What you want is to give classes an improved/Op version of berserker without adrenaline gain with a 5 sec duration.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

The send the conditions back at target would be there to punish those that mindlessly bash buttons thinking “More conditions, i need more conditions” rather than using them at the right time.

They are already punished when you dodge/block/ evade their attack by a cooldown.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Please, i have been hit for 16k Backstabs before, so i know Thief isn’t fine. However if you go zerker expect to die. It is that simple. What defense do you have against that? Toughness as well as weapon and/or utility skills. what do you have to protect yourself against condition spamming?

-condition duration (for info look runes of melandru) as well as weapon and/or utility skills.

Health like that is really a counter anyway. Plus likes of Warrior, Engineer, Necromancer and even Mesmer have MORE access to conditions than another class has access to removals. At the VERY best they won’t be abler to kill you – of course you have been forced to take EVERYTHING you can to counter conditions so you pretty much cant do anything else.
Does that seem fair?

Yes it does .
I mean you wouldn’t say: “It is fair that you can negate all power damage of a power class in his berserker build and still kill said user/do something else?”

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

It would be a boon with a reasonable say 5 second duration that couldn’t be spammed or anything. It would mean that these Condition users most of whom are clueless button bashers that have no idea how to actually play but are just living off the power of conditions would be punished for what they do – spam, spam, spam.

It takes next to NO skill to press a few buttons and get 5-8+ conditions on a target and then proceed to auto attack that person while they are trying to remove said conditions which then gives them new conditions.

Conditions SHOULD be about using them at the RIGHT time to great effect, not spamming them until the person you are fighting dies because they can’t out cleanse all the conditions that you spam them with.

Still 5 seconds condition immunity and being punished on top of it which can scale to 10 seconds with boon duration. Not a good idea.

Also it takes even less skill to remove a condition then to apply one. So by that logic there should be a debuff that makes cleansing inpossible and on top of that doubles the conditions it was trying to cleanse.

Cleansing is not the only counter to condition damage. The others are dodging, blocking, invulnerability,… . The list is almost the same as the list for power skills.

So wait you would make the return of conditions,which is mostly unique to the necro, a boon???? What kind of ridiculous request is that!?!?!?!? It’s like making retaliation reflect all damage back to the use while taking none your self. Think of the OPness of that kind of skill.

Also as long auto attacks exist so will spamming, this applies for power as well condition damage.

Dynnen, where do you get that 5k?? Because the maximum base pvp condition damage (without might stacks) value is 1737. To get 5k damage numbers you need like 25 bleeds+ perma burn + perma poison + perma terror, 25 stacks of torment while moving or 25 stacks of confusion while attacking. If you get such numbers (which is impossible to achieve solo due to low condition duration is in such cases) then you deserve to die.

For those who believe that condition damage should only invest in one stat here I have a little post:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Personally I don’t put all my eggs in one basket, and I go hybrid.

Anyway, not a lot of people have done math on the issue. What most people get is the tooltip, and that is misleading to a large degree. The tooltip assumes 2600 armor, and since the minimum is 1836, this means it can be up to 41.6% higher.

So, with that in mind, I’m going to make an arbitrary comparison between a guardian’s auto attack with his sword, and a Necromancer’s auto attack with their scepter. This is assuming a few things: Full PVT / MVT gear, exotic level gear, 300 in the relevant damage stat, and an appropriate rune/sigil. Off-hand weapon will not be considered. So, in full PVT/MVT we get the following bonuses:

Guardian:

Vitality: 698
Toughness: 698
Power: 1003 from gear + 165 from rune + 300 from stats = 1,468 Power
Runes of the Ogre bonus: 4% damage increase
Sigil of Force bonus: 5% damage increase

Total effective power: (916 + 1468) x 1.04 × 1.05 = 2603 power

Necromancer:
Vitality: 698
Toughness: 748
Malice: 1003 (from gear) + 300 (from stats) + 183 (from runes) + 83 (run undead bonus) = 1569
Total Malice with Sigil of Bursting: 1663

At 1663 condition damage, bleed does about 126 per tick, and poison does about 250 per tick. This means that the necromancer’s scepter auto chain will do 4 (126) x 2 + 4 (250) = 2008 damage over the course of 7 seconds (3 seconds to initialize the damage, 4 for the poison to tick). If you want to get technical, the motions to inflict all the damage is done in 3 seconds, so we’ll just go with that. Note that the auto attack also has a direct damage component (118 + 118 + 168), so the real total damage comes to 2,421 in 3(+4) seconds, factoring in crit chance and crit damage.

At 2603 power, the sword auto attack will do 764 × 2 +1,432 damage, or 2,960 damage in 2.5 seconds. Now, this isn’t assuming any crits, but if we factor in a 4% crit chance along with a 1.53 crit damage, we will get a further 2% increase, or about 3023 damage in 2.5 seconds.

This tooltip damage is also assuming 2600 armor. That is actually more than the necro has ATM (2584), but assuming we were fighting something like a GC mesmer, who would only have 1836 armor, then we would do 41.6% more damage, up to 4281 damage in 2.5 seconds. But, we’ll just go with the tooltip for now.

Ultimately, the guardian is doing more damage, doing it faster, doing it in power, and doing it while in heavily defensive gear. A lot of people constantly point at zerker gear, saying it is the only way to run a damage build. It really isn’t. I’ve been running a PVT guardian build in sPVP for a long time, and it does hit things quite kitten its own. One of my favorite things to do is just go around auto attacking people with the greatsword, since the combination of power + bulk means I’ll win the auto attack war. I’ve even played around with Valkyrie, which I recommend to many people, as it hits really kitten crits, and still has plenty of vitality for defense.

Those “builds” above are merely skeletons. The more modifiers you throw at it, the more things change up. But if you do throw modifiers on, you have to remember to do it to both classes: if you include trait abilities, you do it for both. If you include additional stats, you do it for both. If you include consumables, you do it for both.

From what I understand of the necromancer is that we are made to be an attrition class meaning the longer the fight the better position we are. But in reality we are forced to become something else: a burst type class(both pve/pv) without the tools for them. The only tools that remotely works in this case are terror and dhuumfire. In PvE we are forced to use burst due to the dps meta.

The reason why are forced in pvp to become burst type is because:

-life force generation is either hard or low. The easiest example is looking at the weapon skills the only two weapons which provides a decent stream of life force is the dagger and the staff. The dagger functions well in that regard but it is not that of a great weapon, the staff just plain sucks except for the mark spam.

- Necomancer need life force : simply said without life force we have almost no way to defend ourselves. Powermancer even need it for their damage and with the new dhuumfire change conditionmancers too.

-Life force is lost when using death shroud even when taking no damage.

- All the necromancer’s defences do not scale with the amount of users. This means that if two people attack us we die twice as fast which is not the case with other classes which have defences like blocks,evades,stealth,… . It makes us easy targets for focus fire and burst, add the lack of counters to cc and we are just sitting ducks waiting to be killed/stunlocked.

Combine those four reasons and you can see why the necromancer can’t play an attrition game since:
The longer the fight takes, the more life force we lose which is hard to regain and the more chance we have to encounter an extra enemy which will make it nearly imposible to survive.

I can say a bit more of my view on the necromancer and it’s playstyle but I’m a bit short on time, I hope it helps you with understanding the necromancer.

It looks the weekly new anti condition thread has arrived.

First thing why is 2-3 condition users in a team bad? I mean power builds and condition builds should be equal. I have also never seen anyone complain that a team has 5 power users.

Second it is unlikely that people will be killed in a few seconds by condition build due to their dot nature.

Also conditions are not passive you need to hit an enemy with your weapon as well. It’s not like condition are applied to you if the enemy is afk.

Conditions scale from 3 stats (precision,condition duration and condition damage some builds can drop precision though) as well .

The problem with support and healing is not the fault of conditions it’s with the way pvp/pve are designed.

kusanagi.3150:

Conditions just ignore one of the two mains stats of defense we have. Sounds legit, yeah.

I thought we have at least three visible defensive stats(Vitality, toughness and healing power) and then 2 invisble stats (condition duration, damage modifiers).

Bunda.2691:

Out of the box idea:

A heavy support class that projects 600 range fields/shields that can, depending on alighnemnt, protect allies from condis, cc, (some) direct damage, etc. Obviously limited and one at a time. This would encourage zerging, so the class would also have skills to combat other and disrupt said fields.

Look at the consacretion skills of the guardian. Maybe this is what you want??

Shroomer.8645:

…

One good analasys of the bleeds of a warrior, I also like your idea of impale but not that of precise strikes ,but one thing 8 sec of bleed weightless??
I can question that since people are complaining of scepter autoattack and that’s only half the bleed. That aside though there are alternatives to make for deep cuts:

3. remove stacks from pin down but keep the duration: 6 secs stack of condition + immobilize is a lot for a single skill so maybe we could change this to 5~3 (imo 4).

4. change deep cuts to +50% bleeding duration while wielding a sword. It’s very similar to 2 but it includes precise strikes but also sigil of earth.

5. change deep cuts to increased bleeding duration on sword skills and balance for each skill differently, it does not count for the bleeding duration cap as an example see lingering curse. That way you can give flurry 50% while giving the others around 25% duration. The fact that it does not fill in towards the cap of 100% can make it too strong but it can be switched with blademaster in that case.

6. change bleeding cuts to 30%.

I find it funny that people can find a adept +50% bleed duration trait in a condition trait line, the most normal thing in the world while +40% condition food is one of the most hated things in the community.

As an extra illustration: those 10 trait points spend are less then 2 sigils and six runes from a bleed build point of view. (take sigil of accuracy and earth, 2* runes of the centaur, 2* runes of the afflicted and 2* runes of the krait).

You would think that it would be better to release such things but with the insane speed of posting in the ranger CDI , this piece of information will not even looked at by the devellopers due to its size. The same will be happening with the elementalist CDI. So posting this piece will have no positive influence whatsoever.

I think it is best to save this when we ever get our turn in the cdi (if that ever happens), introducing it right now would be a bit disrespectfull towards the ranger community.

xXxOrcaxXx.9328:

While the pet is a huge part of the ranger mechanic, the ranger is not only defined by its pet. if you would remove the pet, the class would still work. Furthermore, the pet is the only classmechanic with drawbacks attached to it. You gain advantages but you also have disadvantages. Me and a lot more don’t want to use the pet.

Death shroud is also a class mechanic with drawbacks:
death shroud has several of them:
-no healing (both from itsef and allies)
-no condition removal
-no stunbreakers
-life force diminishes on its own
-no life force on death
-no utility skills

Turamarth.3248:

The current minor traits also rely on you having allies around you that you can rezz. And don´t tell me that you put points in this line just for the minors.

While I like the idea to make the minors center on combos I don´t think that additional adrenaline or health are necessary. Maybe giving short buffs to oneself and others would be better.

Yes you need allies to be effective , but in the combo minors you need allies which places combo fields which is a bigger dependency then the reviving ones.

And no I don’t take this line for just the minors, though I do feel they are usefull.

I find these suggestions not good: while longbows, warhorn and banners are part of the tactics trait line, they are not the only thing that are part of the trait line. Shouts for instance benefit from this trait line immensely also (in a minor degree) greatsword. Do not forget the traits like empowered and empower allies. All of those do not use combo’s. Making all minors revolve around combo’s will make those trait lines less interesting for them while reviving is very usefull no matter what type of build.

Also the warrior suffers from a lack of combo fields (with combustive shot being the only one). So the introduction of combo fields are only usefull if you have a teammate which uses combo fields. Such dependancy on allies will weaken the trait line.

Also not everyone uses warbanner: many use signet of rage.

xXxOrcaxXx.9328:

PvE

Pet update

This aspect is crucial for a class, which relies on it’s pet to deal max. damage.

If ArenaNet manages to switch the AI engine to the client,
I would like to see this happen:

If you’ve played FF12, you may remember the gambitsystem.
Thats exactly how I want to control my pet.
For those who don’t know what I mean:
The gambits where an easy and fast way to “programm” the AI of your characters.
They are arranged according to their hierarchy.

As example: The first instruction (gambit) will be executed as long as the requirement is given (e.g. “retreat when below 20% HP”). If the requirement is not given, the second instruction will be executed as long as its requirement is given (e.g. “attack nearest foe”). So you can not only control how your pet will behave in certain situations but also remap your F1-F3 keys.

I do agree with this, but I prefer the tactics system of dragon age. Quite similar but with a bit more depth (imo at least).

Specific Game Mode
All
Proposal Overview
Making the pet scale partially with ranger
Goal of Proposal
making a bigger connection between ranger and pet while maintaining the idividuality of the pet (between itself and the ranger and between pet classes underling)
Proposal Functionality
Right now 100% percent of the stats ( I will leave traits out of this) are determined by the type of pet (cat, canine,…). My suggestion is to make around 25%~75% of the pet’s stat to be determined by the type while letting the rest be scaled by the stats of the player. Condition duration and boon duration are excempt of this and should scale 100% with the player.
Associated Risks
-determing the amount which should be scaled by the type of pet and he amount which should be scaled by the player.
-condition based players and power pets and vice versa are not completely compatible.
comparison with other similar systems (this threat is discussion based so why not)
1.no scaling:
+ the pet will always perform otimal
+ every pet is viable
-‘abuse’ is possible (tanks with power pets, condi with power pets,…)
- less connection between player and pet
- less costumisation of the pet
2. 100% scaling with player.
+ the pet will always fit your playstyle.
- The pet and player are the ‘same’ (why let bad ai do it if you can do it yourself better???)
3. scaling with affinities (some pets scale better with power, some scale better to precisio, some scale better with condition damage,…)
- pets are pidgeonholed into certain stat combination since there would be a mayor stat loss if you chose a pet with different affinitie then your stats.

haviz.1340:

Why are conditions against active combat?

• You have to hit your target: Y
• You can dodge conditions: Y
• You can Block conditions: Y
• You can cast while moving: Y

Because you can kite around and spam condies. How do you play as condy necro or a mesmer? You stay back.

That’s just ranged combat how can you kite with the warrior sword?
Btw how do you play power ranger longbow? You stay back.
how do you play power scepter guardian? You stay back.
…

The thing that irks me the most about the dhuumfire change is that it is shafted towards death shroud. Death shroud may be our class mechanic but the importance of it becomes is too big. Also death shroud is flawed by it’s design since it doesn’t allow any healing, it has no condition removal, you don’t have any utility/healing skills, signet doesn’t work in death shroud,… . A conditionmancer has it harder since they have low life force generation and death shroud is most of the time a loss of damage.

I think mending is in a decent place but with the presence of the (in my opinion) overpowered cleansing ire and healing signet it is easely outclassed. For a suggestion of improvement I thought of this:

-mending heals the same and it gives 3 buffs that lasts for 5~10 seconds that each removes a single condition (if the player has conditions the buff is used).

Wintel.4873:

The problem isn’t chill, it’s how absurdly long attument cooldowns are.

It used to be 16 seconds baseline, ANet brought it down to 13 seconds but I believe it should be more along the lines of 6-7 seconds in order for Ele core mechanic to start feeling USEFUL instead of a frustrating hindrance.

I aggree on this one as well. Their skill have already their cooldown and their auto attacks are not that great, so why do they need such long cooldowns on attunement switches?

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

You know, there is something that is bothering me. I could’ve sworn that, awhile ago, I did a comparison between a PVT build and a condi build, and found that direct damage did more damage.

Ah… I found it:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

…

This was in the WvW forum, so the context is slightly different, but nonetheless I think it applies.

Thank you for this post. I’m really happy I finally found a post like this (a detailed comparison of soldier vs dire). Though the method may be debatable (you maximized conditions damage and added no duration into runes and such), it will provided an answer to the following notion:

“conditions only need one stat.”

Rhyse.8179:

unleashed.8679:

What (best) condition skill deals much more damage then any power skills?

All of them. Assuming we are comparing equivalient skill types, like autoattack. A condition damage skill will do roughly 50% more damage then a power skill- the catch is that it can be cleansed and that damage is stretched out.

If that were true then conditions would be desired in pve but they don’t. Kinda strange right?

Jackums.3496:

Tim.6450:

Also you’re complaining that a player that goes for a damage-bunker style is doing more damage than control-bunker style? This is what I got from your post.

No. It’s making a point of the imbalance between power and condition damage.

yet you said that your power build does control while the condition build does condition damage.

The former relies on three stats to be effective (power, precision, critical damage), whereas the latter only requires one (condition damage). Therefore the latter can build into defensive stats whilst maintaining the condition damage equivalent of a zerker power build.

Before you mention condition duration; it’s a completely optional stat that can be increased quite sufficiently through consumables already.

What about precision? It is a necessairy component to increase condition damage, it increase the amount of stacks that are created on the enemy. Also there exist -40% condition food as well, which balances it. Before you complain there exist many OP food not only condition food. Like “Omnomberry ghost” or “Bowl of Orrian Truffle and Meat Stew”.

Also conditions even hitting like a zerker?? in dire gear??? Are you even serious? Condition damage is lower then zerker by default.

Can you show me a bit of proof in the form of a video of your damage and your build? It would be quite helpfull for these kind of discussions.

Also you’re complaining that a player that goes for a damage-bunker style is doing more damage than control-bunker style? This is what I got from your post.

I play most of the time PvE and sometimes a little bit of PvP (tournemants or rankings are not in my interest, just having fun against a player) . WvW is almost never played.

My main is a necromancer in open world, team related (like fractals or dungeons) is it my warrior.

Fractals: I like fractals actually especially the newly added mai trin and molten fractal boss fights. I don not like the concept of agony though: it totaly negates health or armor promoting a zerkerish playstyle but then again some of the mechanics promote a bit more defensive playstyle so it’s not a big deal in my opinion.

pvp and wvw: Those are not my things so I will not comment on them.

Ranger:
This may sounds a bit strange but a big problem to me is how the ranger feels. It feels like “you or your pet” instead of “you and your pet” and this why:

- The passive of trait lines only affect either the player or the pet.
- most traits affect either the player or the pet in a positve way.
- sigils, gear,… only affects the ranger.
- I also see a lot of animal cruelty traits/skills like empathic bond/“protect me”/“signet of renwal”
- pets are unresponsive to the ranger
-…

I hope that the ranger balance moves from this difficult to balance “you or your pet” ranger towards a “you and your pet” ranger. Making a pet (partially) scale with it’s user would be a good idea (maybe even in the damage modifiers).

Darmikau.9413:

Am I missing something here?

yes you are.

Darmikau.9413:

For one, running straight damage requires a three stat investment: power, precision, and critical damage. Conditions require one, and that’s condition damage. There’s condition duration, but conditions are already so spammable it hardly makes a difference. If you’re going for straight damage, you have to go all in or you see huge losses in your ability to actually hurt people, and once your raw damage is low enough, you’re getting into areas of attrition where conditions are just straight better anyway. Meanwhile, in running a condition spec, you free up one or two stat slots for stats like toughness, healing power, etc. Stats, which I should add, make you more defensible against raw damage builds (healing power and vitality are a good defense against conditions, but toughness does nothing except mitigate raw damage, and the first two also mitigate raw damage).

Only needs condition damage? Look at this:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQJArIiAieAAAAA-TkAgyCuIaS1krJTTymsNNWA
The oh so fearsome scepter auto attack does 511 bleeding damage with only condition damage. Conditions also need three stats they are called: condition damage/condition duration and precision.

Darmikau.9413:

And that’s just the stats side of things – there’s the mechanics, too. There are so many defensive mechanics that only minimize raw damage, it’s insane. Dodging, blocking, “invulnerability” skills, stealth, they all stop basic attacks and skills from getting through. And while they do prevent condition-applying attacks from hitting, they do nothing to stop conditions that have already been applied. Dodging, Renewed Focus, Engineer’s Tool Kit Shield, Warrior’s Shield, conditions already on you will keep burning you while using them, but they make you invincible to straight damage assaults. And to make matters even worse, not only are these kind of skills and abilities abundant, but conditions themselves come with ways to out-shine raw damage. Weakness only mitigates straight damage, and it reduces endurance regeneration which is so much more valuable to raw-damage dealers who have to invest into three stats to do what they do, giving up other defensive stats. There’s also poison, which reduces healing and is invaluable for preventing all the prevalent self-healing, which a lot of the more DPS-based classes don’t get access to.

All defense mechanisms prevent the application of new conditions. The damage you’re still receiving is damage you still should have gotten by being hit. It’s like saying invulnerability should block all my attacks plus a part of the previous six attacks. Also most raw damage weapons get different functions like giving vulnerability, mobility, cripple,evade,… (btw for weakness look thief sword, warrior mace or warrior hammer).

Darmikau.9413:

Couple these together, and you get a design scheme where the only way to become a bigger raw damage dealer is to spec more intently into less defensive specs, which is not only disfavorable due to how squishy it makes you, it doesn’t actually accomplish much because there are so many mechanics that just flat out prevent damage. You become more squishy, but you don’t actually make yourself any more effective because of all the blocks and dodges, etc.

Doesn’t that apply to conditions as well: the more condition we want to do the less defensive we have to spec?

Darmikau.9413:

All things considered, I get that DPS has the advantage of being burst-oriented, as opposed to the over-time nature of conditions, but it just seems like there’s such a ridiculous amount of ways that going raw damage isn’t favored in the spectrum of PvP. Which is a shame, because to me it’s one of the most fun specs available.

To me condition specs are more fun but hey each their own. Also where is condition removal in your argument?

Cynz.9437:

Since AI and condi tank is a thing now and apperently Anet supports it with recent patches i think it is fair if every class would get cleansing ire + HS + same HP pool as warriors + army of pets + spammable condi aoe. Thank you.

Anet is planning to weaken those type of builds. Look at the future changes for the necromancer.

MiLkZz.4789:

Tim.6450:

I personally think that the adrenaline gain on cleansing ire is too much. It’s unlike every trait that I have ever seen.

You do know warrior has had that trait since beta right? And it was adept tier aswel, it got moved to master when they added the condition removal factor to it.

I now realise that I phrased this wrong what I meant was this:
I personally think that clearing conditions and gaining the adrenaline is too much. I haven’t seen a single trait that demands a resource but also gives an extra way too gain it.

I personally think that the adrenaline gain on cleansing ire is too much. It’s unlike every trait that I have ever seen.

digiowl.9620:

Could have sworn that at launch, support was not capped at 5 and it turned WVW into a glorious mess…

Anyways, i could have sworn that ANet patched the support AOEs to have some sort of priority where minions and non-party friendlies were near the bottom.

I know but I’v heard that WvW is still a mess. I know that removing the cap will be a bad idea but to increase it to 10 ? Or my other idea as well?

I also have seen pets buffed before other players but they were not party members. Party members do get priority but that doesn’t mean that you as an ally have no interest in keeping the pets alive. I just find it not good that support builds are less effective when pets/minions/illusions/… are involved, especially when some classes have no choice but to use them (ranger/mesmer). I fear it will make rangers and mesmers unwanted/inefficient when Anet makes support builds usefull in PVE.

I have been thinking and I think that one thing needs to be added to the list :

AOE cap:

Right now we have a cap of 5 if I remember well. This is the maximum size of a group but with the addition of pets/minions/illusions/… ,this cap is immediately surpassed. This hinders support build immensily since the wrong targets could get the boons/buff/heal. There several solutions:
-remove the cap: this is ill advised since it will make aoe op in wvw.
-increase the cap to 10: This will not completely solve the problem if there are to many pets (like with a minion master) but it will increase the chances of hitting the right target.
-keep the cap at 5, make pets/illusions/minions/… the last one to receive aoe but if a player is hit then so are the pet/illusions/minions/…, if they are in range of course: this would be the most elegant and most prefered but it creates a lot of work and maybe it can create some work on the server.

kylwilson.9137:

Sigil doesn’t need to grant Vigour when it recover’s 50% of your endurance, so the point has quite obviously gone over your head.

If you expect anyone to use up dodges on say, the Necromancer scepter auto-attack which is obviously notorious for it’s condition application, you’re delusional.

Never mind the fact that a vast majority (and I say this because I can’t actually think of any heavy condition causing animations in the Necromancer repertoire with enough telegraphing) have no real tells, again your argument falls flat. And even so, then a Necromancer can use dodges in exactly the same way and take advantage of a Sigil of Energy, seeing as condition causing skills are just so simple to dodge.

Now the point of the post was a counter to my vigour suggestion, they replied that Necromancer had no access to vigour, which has absolutely zero impact on the suggestion I had made, seeing as ~they wouldn’t NEED to take advantage of any condition damage reduction tacked onto vigour~ because they already have both a sickening amount of health and options to deal with stacked conditons . Try and stay on point with this.

really scepter auto attack, powerfull? look a this http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQJArIkQgeAAAAIG9gYAgkB-ToAAzCpIgRNjbGDMSfs+MCYuA .1071 or 1421 on hit in a best case/unviable scenario, that’s not powerfull, I’ve seen better auto attacks.

It’s also logical that condition attacks don’t have the same telegraphing power like power attacks. It would be stupid since you can cleanse afterwards.

sorrow.2364:

Yeah, but they should take the sPvP balance as start point, not WvW/PvE.
And, by the way, not every WvW/PvE player share your opinion, actually pretty much none does.

It’s nearly impossible to use pvp balance as start point since, that would mean we have to nerf/remove gear and remove the craft chef from the game, make artificier almost meaningless, remove several runes from the game,… .

maybe you could explain the term for those who doesn’t know it or place a link for those who do not know with what you mean (like me) ?

whyme.3281:

I wonder right now, why the mesmer is the only “pet-class” which has scaling pets.

I think it’s because the pets need to be fundemental different from the user.
“Why would you take a pet if you can do the same?”
“Why sacrifice 30% of your damage so your bad ai can do the 30%?”
…

That’s one of the reason why I suggested semi scaling ranger pets.

RashanDale.3609:

But ele? maybe theyre a bit weak (no idea, honestly. i hear ppl whining about them but i also see the screenshots of fullzerk-hammereles with ridiculous damage), but at least the class is finished and all and works, unlike necros.

I personally believe that ele’s have a problem in design. I have played ele a bit and these are a few of my observations on the ele which compelled me to vote on the ele.

Elementalist are very active class, they have lot’s of weapon skills with lots of combo field and finishers and in return have very few passive boosts.

The problem is that those skills are blocked due to attunement cooldowns plus their own cooldowns. The utilities are either weak (like signets) or have long cooldowns (like cantrips) which hinders this active playstyle as well. In fact I believe that engineers and their kits are what an elementalist should be with his weapons. It would require a bit of work though with some on attunement switch traits.

Another problem is that elementalists have to interrupt their dps uptime due some long cast times, the need of doging or the fact that they need to switch to eath or water to defend themselves. The last one forces them for +- 10 seconds out of their preferred attunement which is not good.

1. elementalist
2. ranger
3. necromancer

Aegael.6938:

They are allowed to build much tankier while still outputting lots of damage.

Do you have any proof of that statement? Because both side claim the other does more dps while in damage/toughness/vitality gear.

Aegael.6938:

Many of their powerful skills have limited tells.

That’s because a player has two chances to migitate a condition attack while power has one. So it’s fair that conditions have less tells.

Their stuff comes off cooldown very fast.

what about might blow? smite?

They deal much higher theoretical DPS.

Unless I misunderstand the meaning of theoritical dps, is it very well known that power builds have the highest build by default. There is a reason why speedruns don’t have conditions in them.

Aegael.6938:

As an example, let’s shift topic for a moment and talk about direct damage. Direct damage counters include block, blind, block, evade, invuln, and potentially killing them before they can output their damage.

It may come as a surprise to you but those are all applicable to condition attacks as well.

Aegael.6938:

They’re tankier, their damage is easier to apply, their stuff ticks while you’re mitigating further damage, and their overall DPS is higher.

The first one depends on the build, the second one is true and the fourth depends on the build. The third one is true but let’s put it in perspective:
So if you use a invulnerable you get the right to negate the attacks at you now and a part of the previous 6 attacks that have hit you? Compared to power builds that does not sound fair.

Aegael.6938:

Yes, there should be reasons to play a condition damage class. But right now it’s overtuned. You have extremes of very tanky condition damage dealers that need to be built against in order to have a chance of survival. I’d go out on a limb and say there’s stunbreaker-less builds that can beat CC chaining due to high tells, cast times, and cooldowns. There’s no build that can take zero condition removal yet still beat a tanky condition damage dealer.

That’s just an assumption.

Monoman.2068:

Condition spam easily outputs the most practical dps in this game imo which is plain wrong with the readability of most condition skills considered.

Where is the proof in that statement?

It doesn’t help that there isn’t any stat to decrease condition damage and condition classes only really need one stat to output moderate damage, two if they want to see the world burn.

So runes of melandru doesn’t exist? Nor do runes of hoelbrak?

Some classes are actually unplayable against conditions if you don’t plan to hug large cleansing groups because your ability to combat conditions is dependent on your class and not your play style.

The same can be said bout CC and mobility. Some classes can deal with them others not.

Monoman.2068:

There really needs to be some sort of stat to decrease condition damage that super tanky characters won’t have easy access to. Then they should allow conditions to crit to counter it and we might be able to get rid of a large chunk of this condi spam and removals.

So wait now do conditions have to rely on four stats (condi damage/crit/prec/duration)? On top of that do they have to find a way to survive against the other player so that their damage can tick, not fair.

cheese.4739:

Condition-applying attacks don’t have nearly the same visibility/telegraphing as power attacks do, so are much easier to land – this becomes even more of a problem when you factor in all those random procs that apply conditions on top of the hard-to-dodge attacks. There is no build that can dodge every single attack so that these on-hit procs don’t affect them.

Of course don’t they have the same telegraphing power like power attacks. It would be stupid since you can cleanse afterwards. Also the random procs are also an option for power attacks like sigil of air/fire/ice/frailty/… . Btw how are procs different from +X% damage? There is no build that can dodge every single attack so that this boost don’t affect them.

Aegael.6938:

Clearly, both options need stronger counterplay.

more counterplay? everything that is applicable to power moves is applicable to conditions. Conditions have to worry about diamond skin/automated response and condition removal on plus.

Aegael.6938:

Add more tells and longer cooldowns to big condition damage attacks. This would make it so we could interrupt, block, and dodge them. Longer cooldowns would punish misuse.

combine this with condition removal, after finally placing your attack does it get removed befor it even ticks. 0 damage for such high skill fair,right?

Aegael.6938:

Tone down condition application, and instead make each condition application worth far more. In other words, you could remove bleeding from a lot of skills, and remove such high stacks on some others, but also make each bleed worth a lot more damage.

Can we do the same to power attacks? make them all hit 200 damage and a few strong ones of 4000?

Aegael.6938:

Allow conditions to crit, but tone down base damage. This would somewhat lessen the tankiness of condition damage builds, and also mean that they would have to invest in roughly the same stats as direct damage builds in order to achieve such high damage.

Power builds do generally more damage then condition builds so yeah they do deserve the right to be a bit more tanky. Also four stats for condition damage? not really fair.

Aegael.6938:

-Lessen condition removal. If conditions are easier to prevent, it shouldn’t be as easy as it is now to remove them.

And people complain now that some classes have to few removal, good idea.

Aegael.6938:

-Add more specific condition removal. More of “This skill removes X and Y condition,” rather than “Removes a condition.” This way we could build around what conditions we didn’t like and ignore the conditions that were less detrimental to our build. We’d have little niches like poison counter builds and bleed counter builds rather than some builds having nigh-immunity to condition damage. Instead, you’d be able to see which removals your enemy took, and consciously focus on using the conditions that they were weak to.

And hear the community whine so much because they can’t remove condition X? Also not every class has acces to lot’s of conditions necro has acces to bleed and poison but poison doesn’t really do much dps so yeah not a good idea of making such hard counter build.

By the way removing condition removal while adding condition removal???
Also what is the counterplay of condition removal in your suggestion?

Aegael.6938:

Counterplay to conditions currently consists of a line – There’s no triangle, like rock-paper-scissors.

If you stack enough condition removal, you beat condition builds. If you don’t stack enough, you lose to them. That’s literally it. There’s no other counter to it.

Actually there is counter play to most condition removal it’s either overloading or corrupt them. necromancers are good at them but people don’t like them.

Aegael.6938:

-“Kill them before they can stack enough conditions.” Because conditions can be removed before they deal significant damage, their theoretical DPS is higher. And because condition damage revolves around high-DPS DoT, you’d think one counter would be killing them before they can stack enough conditions on you. The game mechanics work against this. To maximize direct damage, you typically need 3 stats. Power, Precision, and Critical Damage. To maximize condition damage, you need only 1-2. Condition damage and a bit of precision if you want crit-procs. Condition builds can get very tanky with those extra stats.

conditions have at least three stats prec/condi damage/condi duration. On top of that do we have to gear for defense so we can see the full damage of the attack happening. Also high dps power builds are better in terms of dps.

Aegael.6938:

-“Interrupt or prevent the key skills that apply dangerous conditions.” Many powerful condition damage abilities have extremely quick cast times or even none, such as Incendiary Powder, Pin Down, or Necromancer’s scepter autoattack. What are you gonna do, interrupt a passive trait? Feeling lucky enough to dodge a 1/4 cast time projectile? What about blocking an autoattack? Compare to Jump Shot, Eviscerate, or Life Blast, all of which have very large tells, cast times, and appropriate counterplay.

really scepter auto attack, powerfull? look a this http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQJArIkQgeAAAAIG9gYAgkB-ToAAzCpIgRNjbGDMSfs+MCYuA .1071 or 1421 on hit in a best case/unviable scenario, that’s not powerfull, I’ve seen better auto attacks.

Aegael.6938:

-“Outlast them until their DoT abilities are used up.” GW2 does not have an energy system, except on the thief. If you last long enough, they’ll just throw even more conditions onto you. Not to mention, many condition attacks are noticeably cheap in terms of cooldown. Drake’s Breath and Fan of Fire are two very low-cooldown attacks with high condition damage attachments. Compare to Fire Grab and Arcing Arrow. Condition damage builds will typically outlast you, rather than the other way around.

That’s the point of conditions. That’s why necro’s got conditions for their attrition playstyle aka as outlasting. Also you shouldn’t be able to evade all condition moves it’s like evading all power based moves.

Aegael.6938:

Right now, almost ANY build will lose to a condition build if it doesn’t take condition removal, due to how easy it is to apply conditions and how effective they are. I don’t think it’s balanced that tanky condi will beat any other build unless it’s specifically built against. You may say that “it’s your choice” to choose not to take condition removal, as most say about builds that have no stunbreakers. However, I’d say many specs can survive without a stunbreaker, but almost no spec is useful if it doesn’t have condition removal. If there is one, I’d really like to see it.

Of course it does, it’s like expecting to beat someone without preparing, also about stuns what about hammer warriors they can chain cc you to death.

Aegael.6938:

Condition removal itself currently has no hard counters either. Many condition removals are also instant cast, making counterplay a headache. Gameplay when playing condition damage literally becomes “Keep spamming conditions and hope the next one doesn’t get removed.” Compare this to blocking or dodging against direct damage builds, each of which comes with their own counters, such as unblockable abilities or weakness stacking.

isn’t that same to power builds “keep spamming attacks”?

Make it optional for every transformation skill.

Karl McLain.5604:

Hi all!
Once again, thanks for the feedback!
We’ve been discussing elementalists quite a bit recently in PvP and one of the things that’s brought up constantly from feedback is the internal cooldown from Cleansing Water. This is something we feel is out-dated and we’ve been playing around with removing the ICD totally from PvP. We’ve got some concerns, but would love to hear some feedback on this.

In general, we’ve got quite a bit more stuff coming. As before, we can’t say what these things are just yet… But there’s a bit of stuff that will shake up the meta. We’re really looking forward to it!

-Karl

In my opinion I think that that ICD may be removed. I have one concern about it though: the changes to runes and sigils more specifically the runes of dwayna. If the changes to the runes of dwayna grant too much regeneration at a short interval, then it can become overpowered.

1. save yourself is a stunbreaker.
2. save yourself has 7 boons, spite 6 conditions
3. All boons are very usefull to a guardian the same can not be said of the signet.
4. The power of signet of spite is kinda useless since it’s active is mostly used by conditionmancers.
5. signet of spite can be dodged/blocked/interupted/… if I’m not mistaken.
6. cleansing of conditions is easier then removal of boons.

Vuh.1328:

I know that, but to please the general stupidity of the community. But gear like Dire/settlers is quite kitten ed overpowered for conditions in wvwvw with duration food/perplexity etc. But having a third stat could maybe work as way to create glass condition builds which can compete with zerkers. Tho that i guess would just make people cry even more..

I can not speak about dire or perplexity since I never tried or encountered those though it would be handy if I ever saw a comparison between dire and soldier or a comparison between dire and knight.

The food issue is a point I can speak about. We can decrease the food to 10~20% but increase the bleed/confusion/… duration on runes by 5% to 20%. It would bring conditions on par with boons in terms of runes.

On the adding of a third stat I will say you this to create a zerkerish condition build. This kind of build has been created by necromancers and the result has been a nerf to all it’s condition type builds in pvp/pve.

Vuh.1328:

Altho condtion damage could perhaps be affected by a third stat, like crit damage but for condis somehow.. So stuff like DIRE/settlers etc become less useful for offensive.
Perhaps lower the damage across the board for conditions but allow them to crit to achieve about same overall dps now if running say rabid, but way lower dps if running dire/settlers

Well conditions are “affected by a third stat”. You could call that stat survivability. Since conditions are damage over time we need to survive longer to make sure our conditions tick.

KickBitBeatBorg.7941:

I think you’re right. But it’s also generally accepted, that GS offers to much mobility and Hammer to much CC and/or dmg. Well … i think ranger sword is not a good example since its dealing low dmg. Maybe it all sums up to: theres just to much dmg.

Strangely is it said that the sword is the ranger highest dps weapon. That aside I can find many more examples of multi purpose weapons (I even think that every weapon is a multi purpose weapon) and if al those examples are too much dmg well then I think there is a problem with your reasoning.