Guild Wars 2

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

By the way, I completely disagree with the comparison that was made earlier with Nolan’s Joker. Scarlet isn’t anywhere as a deep a character as The Joker, as played by Heath Ledger. The Joker as seen in The Dark Knight actually has a plan. On the surface his acts seems random and anarchistic. It seems as if he’s just creating chaos. But underneath there is a much smarter and darker villain, with an actual objective (even if he claims he’s just like a dog chasing a car, but he’s not). His plans are complicated, and unpredictable, and hinge on what the Joker thinks other people will do. He tries to control them, like puppets, and enjoys a game of chess where the pieces decide to become players, instead of simple marionettes.

I agree with your assessment of the DK Joker, because it matches what you see when you stop and figure it all out. He was an opportunist, yes, but there was definitely some advance thinking in his schemes rather than “let’s blow up a hospital”.

I don’t agree with your assessment of Scarlet, as we’ve only seen her in a limited way right now. The childish behavior fits with me because most sylvari seem to have a . . . tendency . . . towards the naive/immature. She seems intelligent, but during the Closing Ceremony it was clear her attention “seemed” unfocused while it was really a misdirection. The first four bombs were obvious . . . the last was not, and did not have a convenient fuse to stop. And it wasn’t exploded until the evacuation point was well to being used.

The invasion Scarlet just seems like an act, her having fun knowing she’s not in any real danger.

I haven’t been into the Playhouse yet, so I can’t speak for that.

I don’t know. Part of me wishes that short story had never been posted, and part of me is more wishing it had been posted the night of the update rather than a couple days later. (I’m guessing other concerns might have had a hand.)

I’m reserving judgement on whether or not she is truly a horrible character until I get to see more. Currently? She hasn’t beat my reaction to Duncan the Black for anger with a supposed “boss mastermind” not living up to the hype. (Seriously, this guy is so incredibly dangerous but he can go down to some smart Swapping and a couple doses of poison/bleed/burning?)

Astralporing.1957:

Zacchary.6183:

I get more loot succeeding the event then farming it.

Highly unlikely, unless you put a lot of effort to farm badly.

For me it’s not farm badly, it’s getting good tags in when the swarm descends on anything labeled “Champion”. Rangers’ Axe autoattack helps though.

Bovinity.8610:

How about stopping Kellach from assaulting Queen Jenah? If I recall, at least 2 of 3 order choices were male at that point. Then there’s helping out Forgal with the ogres for the Vigil . . .

Oh, sure. And the leaders of 2 of those 3 orders? Female. The person most responsible for protecting the queen? Female. And, heck why not, the queen herself? I probably don’t have to say that she’s female too.

Of course . . . of course the queen is female. Why would the queen not be a woman? That’s really . . . really strange to point out.

Try rebooting your computer before starting Guild Wars 2. It’s the only help I can really give you folks, because I’ve had both “no crash” days and “oh my GOD” crash days and since I started strictly keeping myself restarting before playing it’s kinda cleared up.

Bovinity.8610:

Where were you with the personal story being all about males succeeding?

Males succeeding? You mean the story where Trahearne fumbles around, mumbling about not being a leader while Zojja saves the world with a phaser bank she stole from the Enterprise? =D

How about stopping Kellach from assaulting Queen Jenah? If I recall, at least 2 of 3 order choices were male at that point. Then there’s helping out Forgal with the ogres for the Vigil . . .

Turn the question on the head:
Why do people want others not to win the event?

Answer boils down to the same thing someone said: “People want to tell other people how to play.”

So can we stop it? If you want to fail the event and farm? Ignore it. If you want it to succeed? Follow leaders seeking to push the event through. This is really quite simple.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I think Tobias is correct in one regard. The GW2 player-base is deeply divided across many issues. Developers naturally want to provide what players want, because that’s what pays. However, all changes and content additions seem to anger someone. Before the fact, I would have had a hard time imagining anyone getting upset about the wallet, but there were people who did.

How much different would this thread be if ANet had boosted DE rewards instead of Champion rewards? Who would be complaining then?

There’d still be complaints. Seriously. And then DE farming would be back

DeShadowWolf.6854:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

DeShadowWolf.6854:

~snip~

Do you really want me to? Oooookay.

I think the smith mentioned in Hoelbrak actually exists somewhere in game. Have it be a dialogue option in the next Living Story to ask him about “Scarlet” and if he ever tried teaching a sylvari.

Next, allow characters to talk to people in the college areas in Rata Sum and actually use the “Charm/Dignity/Ferocity” to gate whether or not you get a reply (i.e. your Charm must be at least this value to use the Charm option successfully).

Have a LS instance to dialogue with the Pale Tree, who says something along the lines of “Poor (Scarlet’s original name), she could have had a large part in what must come if she hadn’t turned her back on it.” And explaining Scarlet has to be stopped since she now defies the order of things.

All these can be tacked onto or spaced out in minor bits during the SAB update, since it’s light and simple.

Last, have the players go to Orr, Kryta, and the Iron Marches in that order.
/sarcasm

It both 1) doesn’t show the story as it was written in the same way we can read the post, since it has to break it up and put it in-character rather than reading the story itself (which, imo, is written quite well).
2) leads players on a wild goose chase with very little reward. I suspect the people who might actually do this kind of thing (presuming we even know we can do it) are also the ones who keep up-to-date on Anet’s posts there. Given the way in which LS instances are designed, we would probably recieve a mail somehow telling us the Pale Tree has stuff to say, we walk in, her what the tree says, then get attacked by Aetherblades on the way out.Which wouldn’t fit one centimeter with the current events (that is, Scarlet is messing with DR). And the dialogue treasure-hunt might have LS stars like the investigation during DB.

And it wouldn’t be as interesting and immersive as reading the story full out on the official site.

Not using the story as it was written isn’t a huge loss, and “chase with no reward” only assumes there isn’t any based on me not mentioning it. Which, of course, is such a trap because there’s a lot of people criticizing the game for “rewards for pressing F” right now that I actually sort of agree with.

Also, adding things or changing what I said because ANet might put it in that way defeats the purpose of asking me “well how would you do it?” because then you ignore how I would do it in favor of rewriting it to fit your argument. Please don’t do that.

Exosferatu.2961:

Scarlet is not original. Her character is somewhat plagiarized from Christoper Nolan’s The Joker. The Joker and Scarlet have identical characteristics and philosophical doctrine: nihilism.

Don’t knock them for deriving, because I honestly don’t think any character can be made (realistically) which will not be tagged for being derivative of something. Heath Ledger’s Joker is not the first character to take that philosophy, nor was Kefka, nor were anyone else in modern literature.

Also, while I may grant she has certain aspects of the other character? She has some things those two do not: namely, it is not her goal as shown in the story simply to destroy order. That’s a part of the path she intends to take. What she is aiming for is to destroy order and then supplant it with something she sees as superior.

At least, that’s what I saw. She rejects the order she sees the world in, but not simply to have an absence of order. But to have one which, to her, makes more sense.

. . . I’d rather look to Shin Megami Tensei for this sort of plot than The Dark Knight Saga.

Pavees.7281:

Seriously read or watch a few animes hopefully ones that are decently known for their story telling and get an idea bout character depth. Animes can get away with that because of their usual length and lack of censorship on whole. One of my favorite examples is “Fullmetal alchemist Brotherhood” or “Ghost in the shell anime series” both actually show good backstory or give enough crumb trails to keep you interested.

GitS:SAC is not really . . . good . . . at “show don’t tell” as there is an awful lot of having things explained and infodumps going on, from what I remember when I watched it. (And I loved it, watched it and the second season but it was worse in the second season with the infodump and dialogue creep).

It is still a superb choice for viewing, just . . . take notes, because it is complicated. And the show does not help you.

Another good one might be “Cowboy Bebop”, though it’s overhyped these days. not because it’s not good, but because everyone and their second cousin tells people “you have to watch this”. Also, Steve Blum.

Recently I was reminded about “Macross Plus” and halfway through rewatching it I do have to advise to watch it as well.

Also, and this is one I have not seen but enough people I respect speak highly of it, “Avatar: The Last Airbender”. Not technically anime. Still worth it from what little I know of it.

But at the same time, please please please please PLEASE remember there is a world of difference between written works and viewed works. For writers it can be much more difficult to get to a point in the page where it magically just WORKS. If we’re going to try to bring up better works, it would be best to stick to writers rather than animation or film.

I’ll even start: Lois McMasters Bujold’s “The Vorkosigan Saga”, anything by Timothy Zahn (conservation of detail very much so), and Tad Williams’ “Tailchaser’s Song” or even “Caliban’s Hour”.

Eluveitie.1290:

Perfect example of how it could be done.

No, it’s really not There are much better ways, and I know because I came up with THAT one first.

Dustfinger.9510:

aside from the exact nature of the shared memories, the main charr character is allowed to join even though we are still stated to be under the jurisdiction and direct command of the Legion.

So the order of whispers may keep information fragmented and need to know like any good spy master would.

They do. They did in the past, it isn’t really MUCH different now. Trust me on this

DeShadowWolf.6854:

Then tell me, given the dialogue and cutscene systems and how books are used in-game, how they could put this in game without having an incredibly long dialogue chain or some such thing. It isn’t easy, especially if they had to put some design work to insert it in an easy-to-understand manner, and that would draw even more work away from the actual content that isn’t just a wall-o-text broken up by clicking a green arrow. It would be nice to present at least some of the story itself in-game, but the current systems can’t convey it well.

Do you really want me to? Oooookay.

I think the smith mentioned in Hoelbrak actually exists somewhere in game. Have it be a dialogue option in the next Living Story to ask him about “Scarlet” and if he ever tried teaching a sylvari.

Next, allow characters to talk to people in the college areas in Rata Sum and actually use the “Charm/Dignity/Ferocity” to gate whether or not you get a reply (i.e. your Charm must be at least this value to use the Charm option successfully).

Have a LS instance to dialogue with the Pale Tree, who says something along the lines of “Poor (Scarlet’s original name), she could have had a large part in what must come if she hadn’t turned her back on it.” And explaining Scarlet has to be stopped since she now defies the order of things.

All these can be tacked onto or spaced out in minor bits during the SAB update, since it’s light and simple.

Weindrasi.3805:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Theftwind.8976:

It is interesting to note that after reading the OP’s thread the first thing the wife said was "Why is it ok to portray all the females in the game as “battle bunnies” then? Face it in this game or any other females are portrayed sexually while males are portrayed comically. Blame it on the target audience for the game.

All the females? My current guild leader actually has very concealing and not sexualized armor (last I actually saw her main).

If you’re talking NPCs I’m not going to get into that, as I think Ellen Kiel in the Inspector outfit wasn’t very sexualized either.

Edit: Yeah, not really sexual

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/8/89/Inspector_Ellen_Kiel.jpg

Just because you can choose to not wear sexualized armor, doesn’t mean the “battle bunnies” thing isn’t a problem. Although there are covering options, a lot of armors still turn into robes when put on a male, and a bikini when put on a female. Also, consider the female body types. Almost all of them look like plastic catwalk models with fake breasts.
Ellen Kiel wasn’t sexualized, but what about lady kasmiir? or riot alice? or the watch knights?

I’m not getting into the watchknights again. As for Lady Kasmiir, I expect it’s intentional for the character and she is brighter than she looks. Riot Alice, I could see her using it pretty much for the sole purpose of catching out people who stare.

But, regardless, you have a point but at the same time . . . there’s this weird disconnect since I don’t often hear guys going “I want to play a fat out of shape guy” as much as I hear people going the same direction you’re going.

And on the other edge of the coin we have this: just because you look that way doesn’t mean you ACT that way. Countess Anise has one stunning outfit. I would not consider hitting on her. Ever. EVER. I’d sooner hit on Jora, and that would go nowhere much much faster.

But, back to the main subject. While I do not think the portrayal of male character personalities is an issue, let’s wait and see. In the coming year, more living story expansions will come out, with many new characters. If, after a year of living stories, all the lead roles were consistently female, and all the males were consistently “Lord Faren” types—then yes, it would be cause for concern. But at this point, the Living Story has hardly begun. A few lead females doesn’t make a trend, and even then—a trend doesn’t always mean discrimination. I’m sure Arenanet will put out a fascinating cast of characters—good and bad, male and female, weak and strong, leader and follower.

. . . you know you’re not allowed to say “let’s wait and see” when criticizing the Living Story right? I mean, that’s become an unwritten rule around here

BrunoBRS.5178:

the people from ebonhawke aren’t particularly fond of krytans, despite all the help the latter give them. don’t think canthan descent would help or worsen the situation.

I wouldn’t think they’d care about Canthan descent, and would be suspicious of a Krytan noble. After all, Queen Jennah brokered the peace treaty which has roughly half of the city riled up.

Lord Faren will be happy to have been called stylish

I do agree, these are much better than “stand and deliver dialogue” cutscenes. If you find the time and expense to retrofit the PS cutscenes? I’m sure lots of players would be grateful.

Not as many as if you were to kill of Trahearne and Scarlet together over Maguuma Falls . . .

Adminir.8140:

That rationale would be fine if that was how Guild Wars 2 worked. “It will be there when I get back,” sadly does not work when referring to the Living Story, which is the BIGGEST problem.

Yes, but . . .

Name one thing, one thing which is so absolutely vital to have I would be remiss in not logging in to get it? So far I haven’t seen anything which fits that bill. I’ve seen a lot of interesting nice things, but nothing which made me stand up and shout:

“Here’s my wallet! I must have it!”

Theftwind.8976:

It is interesting to note that after reading the OP’s thread the first thing the wife said was "Why is it ok to portray all the females in the game as “battle bunnies” then? Face it in this game or any other females are portrayed sexually while males are portrayed comically. Blame it on the target audience for the game.

All the females? My current guild leader actually has very concealing and not sexualized armor (last I actually saw her main).

If you’re talking NPCs I’m not going to get into that, as I think Ellen Kiel in the Inspector outfit wasn’t very sexualized either.

Edit: Yeah, not really sexual

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/8/89/Inspector_Ellen_Kiel.jpg

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Thalador.4218:

Obviously, it’s a joke to show what would’ve happened in the Tyria we’ve gotten to know over the years. Ever since Scarlet showed up (and even before that, with the appearance of the Aetherblades), the universe has started to become less magical, less Guild Wars, and more some aberrant sci-fi/fantasy amalgam, with more emphasis on sci-fi.

I don’t really mind the sci-fi elements to it, if done right, but IMO, the game’s story has been in decline before the Aetherblades by a month and a half – with The Secret of Southsun.

Though not part of the relevant plot (thank god), Faren was forced to flee Divinity’s Reach because of a riot caused by a cat popularity contest.

Seriously? A riot… over a freaking cat not getting first place?

I could come up with reasoning as to HOW that would have happened. If the cat in question was owned by a member of the Ministers, or the Queen, or a commoner . . . a riot could be orchestrated much as during the first part of the Personal Story for humans. Remember, the Ministers are not all loyal and some of them at least have been turned to other goals.

It wasn’t a riot about the cat not getting first place. It was a riot to try to show other races the human city has grown decadent and weak and is not to be supported. Then it’s all the easier to subvert.

Esplen.3940:

The queen didn’t get kidnapped and if an amazing story with no holes is so easy, can you please make a story in GW2 that coincides with the lore (without retcons, mind you)?

I can take you up on that, but I’m half afraid of writing something for the lovely people I’ve annoyed to go to town on once I post it.

Pacifica.9576:

Walhalla.5473:

Some people here should actually read this short story before they complain about it

Namica.2951:

So from this, we can add some things to Scarlet:

Master Smith

No she just spent one winter with a master smith and left him at the begin of spring. She wasn even close to be a master smith when she left him.

Master Sniper

There are no indication that she IS a master sniper. She just hung around with a good sniper for two years

Evil for the sake of being evil

More like gone mad from revelation

Kain Francois.4328:

earn the respect of all three Charr legions to be trained by them

Thanks for the joke. Go read the story an you’ll see that she isn’t trained by all three Charr legions. Scarlet spent two years with a gladium. a Gladium, not the three Legions.

Nothing against critizising a character but some of you are sue-ing Scarlet much more than Anet.

yeah the story specifically mentions that she left before she could attain master status, despite the protests of her mentors

Please don’t get in a fight with them about it, some of them have already decided and there’s no swaying their opinion with such things as different interpretations. Just sit back and watch with the peanut gallery. Waldorf and Stadler have room in the box for a couple more.

I will stop for events if I know I can finish them without help OR there are people actively working on completing them. Why? Because it rewards you with some cash and Karma. Karma I then turn into Orrian Jewelry Boxes later.

Events pay for my waypoint habits.

Chrispy.5641:

I do to this game the same way I do to Skyrim, Assassin’s Creed, or any other super long game when I get bored…..

…I stop playing. I haven’t played Skyrim in almost a year, and I just started again this week with a new character, and it has been really awesome playing through again.

Shpongle.6025:

One does not simply take a break from Guild Wars 2.

Challenge Accepted! Because I jumped back into Skyrim, I am slowing down my endless Guildwars 2 Grind, and I might hop on to finish a Daily or do a dungeon with friends if they ask, but, it might be October before I hop into the game again (because I missed it the first time while taking a break from this game!), but as far as playing the game with a fresh character and getting serious again, it could be a year from now.

BUT! It doesn’t cost me a penny to play the game, so what does it matter if I quit now and come back in 5/6/12 months?

This is kinda what I did with Guild Wars 1 after immense, extreme frustration trying to get Master’s Reward on Eternal Grove (HM). I literally took a break for a long time after finishing those Guardian titles.

My rationale? It’ll be there when I get back. For now, I got mudcrabs and Ash Zombies to go beat on.

Exosferatu.2961:

Please, please, please Arena Net develop your characters wisely! In Queen’s Jubilee, Braham and Rox don’t even remember us, the players, who helped them fight against the Molten Alliance.

They remembered me at the Opening Ceremonies. Braham said something about “now that you’re here, it can be a party”.

. . . however once down in the Pavilion? Someone didn’t check their responses before it patched in

Ferik.3127:

know what I think?

I want to fight with Scarlet.

Exactly, I said it. This story is guided in such a manner that simply gives me more reasons to help her than to stop her.

I mean, my main is a Human Necromancer who is a Street Rat origin. She just want to change the flawed system Tyria has become. There is no reason she would fight Scarlet (in fact, when Scarlet kidnapped Queen Jennah she thought “Outstanding!”)

My street rat would want to stop her because, frankly, she messed with Divinity’s Reach. You don’t do that and stay alive. Aetherblades bombing Lion’s Arch? That’s over there, and they don’t count. Dredge attacking norn and charr? Better them than us.

Screw with the human city? Knife in the ribs.

Oh, by the way, can someone go find David Xanatos and teach Scarlet how to do things properly? Or maybe teach Evon for the next time he wants to win an election?

Garenthal.1480:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

This is why I get weird looks when I say Cersei Lannister is a really interesting female character.

She’s very compelling. I adore how complex she is, especially when you begin understanding her mindset and past.

Well, there’s the most important part: she never stops identifying as a female. And this is without flashing her bare chest at the camera. And other characters never stopped identifying as a male, without any kind of sex or suggestion of such whatsoever (Eddard Stark, for one).

I could go on for a while on strong characters I know who are either only incidentally male/female/whatever or definitely male/female/whatever without getting in the way of the character, but that’d just be citing examples rather than deconstructing why they work the way they do.

Which I did earlier.

If you want a strong female or male character . . . you start from “strong character” and then decide the gender and tweak as needed. You do not start with “hot blonde” and go from there.

Arshay Duskbrow.1306:

Uruz Six.6594:

Arshay Duskbrow.1306:

I sure wish the chararacterization of Scarlet in the game matched the one in the story. In the story, she’s presented as cerebral, driven, and hungry for knowledge. That’s good, and an atypical role for a female character. But then the game makes her into just another maniacally laughing, smarmily insulting, hostage-chowder-making villain…

I like her backstory as presented. I just think it’s sad and dumb that ultimately her in-game function is to be yet another Joker-like, smugly chaotic anarchist type.

You do realize that by Seeing Forever she went mad, right?

And as I say, that’s both cliché and a cop-out.

I don’t think it was “Seeing Forever” it was seeing the fact her path was one which set her at odds with existence and her pride making her not go “oh I really need to change” but instead go “the world has to change to suit me”.

It’s still cliche, but . . . then again, everything’s been done before somewhere. And cliche can be a good tool to keep in your writer’s toolbox.

Unleashed.6195:

I agree as far as tone is concerned, but disagree that some tones give license to drop any need for quality. In varying layers, in an RPG at least, the story must serve the game and the game must serve the story. Neither is in one-sided service to the other.

I disagree. Again, “Xenosaga” with a bit of “Metal Gear Solid” thrown in. A game is a game, and bending the game to suit the story risks ruining the gameplay at that moment when it happens. And all you need is one moment like that to cause someone to get yanked out of your cleverly crafted game/story dance and start pulling other threads.

I know we probably won’t agree on this but a game is a game first and a story second. If all you’re doing is pushing buttons to reach the next bit of story, it’s not a game. It’s an interactive movie.

Disclaimer: There is nothing wrong with designing this, if that was the intent in the first place. However, if you sell me a “game” with “play this and tell me what you think”, it had better not be you showing off your writing staff’s skills every five minutes wondering where the game is any more than it should be you showing off your animators’ skills every five minutes, and me wondering where the story went.

I’m weird like this, but I do expect to play a game when I pick up a controller. Yes, go for the excellent story, and PLEASE get good voice actor direction. (For the love of Dwayna, make sure your voice directors can do it right . . . ). But don’t forget this is a game, not your screening room.

Take Arrested Development for example. They’ve kept the tone in that series, but lost the quality in the writing. Where the old episodes are often incredible, worthy of watching repeatedly after letting them settle for a while, the new episodes are disappointing and difficult to sit through (I stopped two episodes in).

I don’t watch Arrested Development, and didn’t ever have an interest in it. To be fair, my interest in television has waned considerably. But I do get your point because I’ve seen shows do that sort of thing too, where the tone remained but the writing was less . . . snappy, I guess is the way to put it.

I read the short story for Scarlet/Ceara. It’s difficult to say that couldn’t have been done better while still keeping the necessary gameplay elements and narrative movers intact. Even just the scene where she wakes up could be reworked to improve the quality without changing any of the overall narrative.

It very well could have been, and I can think of about a half-dozen ways it could have been slid into the game even inside the current Living Story framework. I’m sure between the forumgoers we could ALL collectively come up with four dozen or more.

But I’m not in the shoes of the people at ArenaNet (and I thank the gods for that every time I load the forum….) and probably neither are most of the rest of us. Whatever the considerations were, this is how they did it. I’d rather they didn’t but they did. I’d like them to do it differently, as would a couple other people here. But I’m not going to throw a fit over it.

I said it in the OTHER thread concerning feminism and gender equality:

I would pay much more attention for something where I wouldn’t have to be reminded a character is male, female, or otherwise except as a throwaway fact. I want a good character first, a man/woman/whatever second.

I don’t want a strong female character which is some lady acting tough, gruff, and “putting men in their place” any more than I want a strong male character who’s tough, gruff, and tells ladies to “get back in the kitchen and make me a sandwich”.

This is why I get weird looks when I say Cersei Lannister is a really interesting female character.

Seven Star Stalker.1740:

She feels like a character that A-Net was gonna put lots of effort in.. And then, when this patch came out they were like, ‘Ehkittenit.’

“Hey, they’re starting to say the Living Story needs some forward momentum! Quick, get that Scarlet character modeled and ready. Yeah I know your story wasn’t supposed to hit until after Super Adventure Box but we gotta get something non-festive in there now or there’s going to be a riot.”

Unleashed.6195:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

The problem is not that they’re horrible writers, it’s either that people want to hold them to a high standard (they are not Stephen King, George R.R. Martin, or Neil Gaiman, nor will they be; I’d like to think they’re more Richard Castle) . . . or the writing takes a backseat to the game.

I wouldn’t assume they’re horrible writers either, especially in the context of the game they’re producing. It feels intentional, not accidental. However, we should require higher standards from the writing in games. We demand the very high standards in artwork, animation, gameplay design and infrastructure management. Writing should not continue to get a free pass because it’s a game.

See, here’s where I both agree and disagree. Again. In the same thread. (I have issues.)

I do want better story in video games, but at the same time I want it to not cost the game to do so. I mentioned either on these forums or in chat sometime how there was a game I played where the story was so great it consumed the actual game and it was like just barely busy-work to get to the cutscenes. “Xenosaga”, which managed to keep me interested enough to finish, but at the same time . . . the gameplay was so dull I wound up just skipping the rest of the story and watching Let’s Plays. When I sit down in front of a game, I want the game to entertain me and draw me in differently than with a TV show – video games are an interactive medium, and writing for them is different than writing for something else.

Now, I also don’t require television to have excellent story and characters, I would much rather they have a consistent mood than great writing. To stress the example? I should not be getting slapstick watching “Lost” or pratfalls for comedy watching “Star Trek”. Much like I should not suddenly get a deadly-serious “save the world” plot to an episode of “Big Bang Theory”. To borrow from above? I sit down to a TV show, I want to know in the first episode what kind of series this is, and would prefer it not change tones too drastically over its run (one or two episodes now and then is perfectly fine but not a wholesale shift).

Lastly, there’s a time, and a place for great works of fiction. Similarly, there’s a time and a place for Looney Tunes silly “crap”. I’m not talking about externally, I’m talking about internally. Some days I want something stirring and thought-provoking, some days I just want to laugh and not think too hard about where that hammer goes when I switch weapons.

I don’t want to stand up before a team of writers and say “your writing is horrible because it’s too silly” one day and the next return and say “your writing is horrible because it’s too serious”. I would rather stand up in front of them and say “this would have worked better for a serious mood if X or Y instead of Z”.

They want to do slightly silly stories which don’t make sense if you stare at them so long? Fine. So does “Doctor Who” and it’s been going almost fifty years now.

Unleashed.6195:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Personally, if I was ANet’s writers I’d stop trying altogether since people keep lobbing cannonballs at the story no matter what they do.

That’s not fair. We don’t know the root issue at work here. What I’ve decided to go with is that they’re intentionally presenting a less mature story and have not yet found how to do that without also lowering the quality of the writing. They’ve decided that their current tone better fits into the mood of a game where you have 8-bit dungeons and stuffed animal backpacks and jumping puzzles. If you had the story of Westeros or The Road but suddenly someone whips out a mace that is a disco ball with trumpets on the side or a bow that shoots rainbows…

If it’s not intentional, we still don’t know the root cause. Perhaps there is someone without a writing background making decisions that force the hands of the writers. It takes several steps to move all the way down to the writers themselves doing their best but not getting any slack, so they should just “give up”.

No matter what, there are two things that absolutely will not help them. One is their giving up, the other is not hearing any constructive criticism. It is hard to hear, when you’re trying so very hard to do a good job, that you’re not. But, if everyone lacks the courage to tell you that you’re not doing a good job you’re unlikely to ever reach your full potential.

I should reiterate: “If it was me”. But then I’m not getting paid to come up with this stuff to entertain tens of thousands of players.

I continue to present this opinion though: ArenaNet has always been really weirdly divided in the case of story. Sometimes they have this really serious thing that works well and thematically is a great experience (“Saul’s Story” from the GW1 Bonus Mission Pack comes right to mind). Sometimes you get “Drakes on the Plain”, candy cane weapon skins, and the old Wintersday.

The problem is not that they’re horrible writers, it’s either that people want to hold them to a high standard (they are not Stephen King, George R.R. Martin, or Neil Gaiman, nor will they be; I’d like to think they’re more Richard Castle) . . . or the writing takes a backseat to the game.

TheKillerAngel.3596:

Next we’ll find out she can out drink a Norn and eat more meat than a Charr at Meatoberfest.

Pffft, I’m the Omnonmnivore. She’s welcome to take a crack at Belcher’s Bluff with me and Adrul any day.

ShroomOneUp.6913:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

ShroomOneUp.6913:

Auesis.7301:

Why is it that a villain like Kefka can get away with being one-dimensional and still be appreciated, but Scarlet, guilty of far less, cannot?

because kefka despite lacking a tragidy backround STILL MAKES SENSE IS NOT MARY SUE. he works in his universe he is crafted from the very beginning of the story scarlet was thrown in into a world were she should have been recognized much earlier but we never heard anythign of her in term of her achivments. and now we should just except it.

Kefka is so much a mary sue it hurts. The only thing that makes him not one is that we get to beat him into the ground after he becomes a god.

you must have been smoking scarlet lately if you think your view is in any way true.

Kefka doesn’t have a tragic backstory, and he is not a tragic villain. He is a crazy person who was given increasing amounts of power and it went to his head. He is not stupid but he is immensely short-sighted . . . a lot of his doings are just him playing with the power he has or trying to get more.

He never loses anything of value through the story, he is never beaten until at the end. His schemes are rarely thwarted in any way which has meaning to the story, and when you “beat” him he runs away (until the end).

I will grant you that Scarlet is fixed into this pretty sloppily, and while it can be fixed? Nobody who’s already been through this update is going to stop bringing it up no matter HOW they smooth her in.

Personally, if I was ANet’s writers I’d stop trying altogether since people keep lobbing cannonballs at the story no matter what they do. Maybe start pitching things to Cartoon Network.

Durzlla.6295:

I’ve seen the axe one take out an entire event without taking a scratch, she made Garen jealous, spinning to win like nobody’s buisness!!

I’ve also seen the Blazing Gun go at it, he was a monster! After seeing what they could do I totally imagine them as being current day Ebon Falcons (I think that’s the name)

It was the name, but unfortunately there’s less Spice and Wolf involved and with that I lost interest.

. . . where’s the zerg today?

ShroomOneUp.6913:

Auesis.7301:

Why is it that a villain like Kefka can get away with being one-dimensional and still be appreciated, but Scarlet, guilty of far less, cannot?

because kefka despite lacking a tragidy backround STILL MAKES SENSE IS NOT MARY SUE. he works in his universe he is crafted from the very beginning of the story scarlet was thrown in into a world were she should have been recognized much earlier but we never heard anythign of her in term of her achivments. and now we should just except it.

Kefka is so much a mary sue it hurts. The only thing that makes him not one is that we get to beat him into the ground after he becomes a god.

Drage.9816:

I know about those limitations. But we are fighting with them 3 event in a row. It’s not like we are fighting a group of pirates, it feels more like we are fighting a country. From lore point of view it makes no sense. (or did I miss something ? )

Well . . .

For Sky Pirates we only fought small teams for the most part, and found two harbors. There was an assumption that was all, but there was a third ship found during Cutthroat Politics, leading to the assumption there might have been more harbors and more Aetherblades active.

And in this I’m mostly drawn to the “yeah we got a problem here” because they can’t have small groups of really tough pirates (though we ARE getting mostly veterans in some waves) since they’d just melt too fast.

. . . but let’s step outside this and a question which got asked in an LP I was watching:

“Where the heck does Cerberus keep getting these goons to throw at Shepard?”

Elbegast.6970:

Auesis.7301:

Why is it that a villain like Kefka can get away with being one-dimensional and still be appreciated, but Scarlet, guilty of far less, cannot?

It’s because ArenaNet put an entire year’s worth of content on Scarlet Briar’s shoulders. Unfortunately, her character is so thin as to buckle beneath the weight.

Broke like a twig, I think you mean. Go for the pun, it’ll last longer

(She definitely could have used more buildup but I think they were anxious due to everyone crying out for something in the LS and decided to either jump the gun or hope it would work.)

Auesis.7301:

Why is it that a villain like Kefka can get away with being one-dimensional and still be appreciated, but Scarlet, guilty of far less, cannot?

We doing Final Fantasy?

Kefka had a bigger buildup to being an insane god-mode villain, as in 66% of the story of the game he was in. Sephiroth is the same, actually, as most of his development came AFTER the story where we were introduced to him.

Golbez is another example one could use as “comes in out of nowhere and wrecks things” but he at least was classy and not crazy.

One-dimensional and crazy . . . Seymour Guado, can you please stand up? Thank you.

DeusVolt.3298:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

NoxInfernus.2361:

Lucky.9421:

Also:

Chaotic evil villains can have a place in the narrative of a universe(sometimes they are fun) but as side stories. Not as the main story of the IP for a long period. That’s senseless and boring.

O’ really?
I’ll just leave this here then, with the comment that this particular Big Bad either was directly responsible or the motivating force for many of the best selling titles that came out of this particular IP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orcus_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29

. . . sorry, Orcus is responsible for Drizzt Do’Urden and Lolth? Elminster? Takhesis? Lord Soth? Strahd von Zarovich? What about Bhaalspawn, the Nameless, Vecna . . . Bane?

D&D’s fiction is a lot bigger than Orcus.

But in there is another “chaotic evil” who is FAR more influential in a way: Lolth. Or Lloth. Or however you want to spell it today. It’s just that she obeys less long-term plans and works with whatever’s available that day.

“many”

Yes, but practically all those I listed are bestsellers (or close thereof) within one of the larger ranges of D&D fiction history. Certainly the bulk of it, from what I can find, is connected to those listed above BEFORE we get to Orcus.

It may be “many” but it’s not “the majority”. Right now Drizzt Do’Urden and Lolth/Lloth have a higher number than Orcus.

You know, nothing murders suspension of disbelief faster than the pile of corpses left after an Aetherblade portal fight. Or, to put it another way:

MMOs, and by extension video games, really have this problem with portraying a realistic limit on amounts in an army or other group . . . but then the necessary game mechanics screw it all to heck. RPGs fall into this problem rather easily (almost wantonly) when you consider how many random encounters have to be killed between Point A and Point M of a story . . . let alone before the finale at Point X. (Points Y and Z are the vaunted “postgame material” most RPGs come with standard these days.)

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Aye. This is what was needed to save Scarlet as a character

It redeems some aspects of Scarlet, but does not save her, since it lessens some aspects of her.

But that kind of thing is needed in the game itself rather than some short story blog post. Braham’s, Rox’s, and Kiel’s pasts were all good as short stories, because those pasts weren’t important to the plot, unlike this one.

Scarlet still has potential. But for every “good” thing about her they show, they produce equally “bad” things. And she certainly isn’t redeemed yet.

Lucky.9421:

PS – Something about dragons.

After killing Omadd (Umad?), she traveled west and burned down Malyck’s tree. Doing this awoke Mordremoth in a totally unobserved way at the same moment players looked through the jotun path Arah telescope to see the star form. Scarlet then brought out her Aetherized rifle that she somehow had despite the Aetherblades not yet existing and one-shotted Mordremoth in the eye, piercing to his brain. Then all the magic he had been absorbing began to leak out slowly, so Scarlet absorbed it and now she’s 8-feet tall.

Her lifelong goal is now to plant herself in the center of Tyria, to become the first ever Red Tree and bring forth a race of her children – the Twilvari (“Twisted Sylvari”).

This would make an interesting Fractal

NoxInfernus.2361:

Lucky.9421:

Also:

Chaotic evil villains can have a place in the narrative of a universe(sometimes they are fun) but as side stories. Not as the main story of the IP for a long period. That’s senseless and boring.

O’ really?
I’ll just leave this here then, with the comment that this particular Big Bad either was directly responsible or the motivating force for many of the best selling titles that came out of this particular IP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orcus_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29

. . . sorry, Orcus is responsible for Drizzt Do’Urden and Lolth? Elminster? Takhesis? Lord Soth? Strahd von Zarovich? What about Bhaalspawn, the Nameless, Vecna . . . Bane?

D&D’s fiction is a lot bigger than Orcus.

But in there is another “chaotic evil” who is FAR more influential in a way: Lolth. Or Lloth. Or however you want to spell it today. It’s just that she obeys less long-term plans and works with whatever’s available that day.

Cyan.6904:

Unleashed.6195:

Cyan.6904:

These short stories are always great to read, and are a huge slap in the face for all the people who claim the writing around this game is poor.

Those that eat only water and oats are rarely suitable critics of other dishes.

Cliche and lacks an valid argument, do better next time.

Not sure whether your argument is whether the writing is good outside the game but needs more love IN the game . . . or that it’s still poor.

Either way, it does annoy me because we could find ways of incorporating even a LITTLE of these stories into narrative with enough time devoted to it. If it takes expanding the 2 week cycle or reworking how the Living Story teams work together . . . can we PLEASE get some incorporation?

Astasia.1459:

To add a human culture comparison, it would be like if they suddenly added a character who was the king of DR, and had always been the king. While the new NPCs introduce him as if he’s always been there and everyone but you knows about it, while all the old NPCs still say absolutely nothing about him ever. That’s how big a deal this is, and how absurdly shoehorned into the story it is.

You must mean “King of Ebonhawke”, because it’s been abundantly clear Divinity’s Reach is ruled by Queen Jennah but she has no heir named right now.

It’s also not an apt comparison, because you can do so much better with the human storyline. Not just the rightful heir to the kingdom of Ascalon (presumptive on whether Ebonhawke gets decided to be separate but allied, or a fiefdom of Kryta) but a high priest of the Six, having been a Minister of Kryta, AND claimed to have trained in Surmia before the Searing.

I’ve seen one blunder into another event one time and rile up a ton of ogres in Blazeridge.

Champion 1, Ogres 0

Unleashed.6195:

Thalador.4218:

Ironically, that proverb fits you bad writing & plothole lovers just as well – if not more.

I assumed that’s what he meant.

If you’re convinced there’s nothing there, you’re probably not going to find it. And if you’re looking for it and don’t find it, you’ll invent something. But if there’s something there and you say “I don’t see anything”, well . . .

I think that’s worse off than seeing some random splotches of paint and being moved to tears by whatever you imagine is there.

Hand in hand with another favorite saying: “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence”.

And it’s an admission time: I like looking at what’s on the table and drawing conclusions and conjecture. But to not see something and assume it will never happen . . . I can’t do that. I can’t accept that way of thinking. I can only assume it hasn’t happened yet, rather than it will never happen, or else I have no reason to continue.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

. . . I may also like Logan due to having “known” his great, great, great, great, great grandparents.

You forgot “not so great” :P

No, no, I rather liked Gwen and Keiran.

I also acknowledge not everyone liked Gwen, and wanted her strung up by a noose halfway through the War in Kryta.

Namica.2951:

Cyan.6904:

It’s just what you want to see. =’)

That argument can be applied to anything. Thought eventually a horse is a horse, white is white, and a sue is a sue.

And a nod’s as good as a wink to a blind man.