Guild Wars 2

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

It isn’t even about being “the” hero. NPCs that should know you, regardless of heroics, simply don’t, and there are a lot of them.

Example. The first Vigil crusader I worked with is a recruiter for them in Hoelbrok. Now, in spite of what we did together, I’m an absolute stranger. This isn’t just about who the story should revolve around but a simple recognition of a simple fact. The guy should know me. Period.

Yet one more detail I really wished they’d gotten RIGHT – I really wanted Agent Ihan to be my mentor for my initiation, not Tybalt. I mean, he’s a fun character but he didn’t feel like the right type to be training my character.

And on the other hand, I didn’t mind my character being handed off to Forgal, because he was clearly an experienced and capable person. He knew what he was doing and he had the air of “just listen to me because you have a lot to learn”.

Lastly, Sieran . . . oh my god, Sieran . . . unless it comes out the Priory assigned my character to her in hopes of tempering her then I really don’t have faith in Steward Gixx to make good calls when it comes to decisions.

All this and more disconnected bits during the middle of the Personal Story drove me mildly nuts. In one instance, I’m supposed to be looking into a corrupt Krytan Minister, and my character should be well aware about the guy being investigated and not surprised. My charr warrior should know what the Renegades are and not have a dime-store explanation of them. My norn should know what the heck the Great Destroyer was.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

You just proved my point. It’s about “the charr” and not “your charr” or “my charr”. Generic vs specific and “personal” demands specifics.

Just like saying,

“By the way, I bought you a new personal toothbrush, but you’ll be sharing it with Larry, Curly, and Moe.”

Don’t call it “personal” when it’s not.

For the love of Dwayna, if you’re going to hang the neutral pronoun of “the charr” when I had been saying “my character” all this time, and suddenly declare it void then you are really not trying to listen.

You know darn well what I was talking about and this is incredibly low to try to step on that one pronoun for the sake of twisting the argument.

Oh, it’s all about the player. Not necessarily the character at all times. But it is about the player, outside the Personal Story, and what they do with Tyria as presented to them. Or don’t do, in the case of the people who largely play WvW.

Now, whether this is executed well . . .

That’s a weird interpretation of the campaign ad where the player become their character in game — specifically “Our Time is Now” ad campaign.

So when you say things like “it’s all about the player. Not necessarily the character” is weird and contradicting because the player and the character is advertised as one and the same.

Which it should always be clear to someone, anyone, everyone is impossible. Physically, literally, figuratively impossible to have “my character” and “me” be the same. Even if you make your character a dead ringer for your RL appearance, it’s not you. It’s never you. Therefore the distinction is necessary, and usually understood to exist at the bottom of the discussion.

I do apologize for assuming you understood that.

As to the thrust of the marketing campaign? I really wonder who didn’t know, and it wasn’t made abundantly clear at the first “one time event” of Lost Shores, this wasn’t going to fly exactly as the wording said. There was simply never going to be that option, because this game has been built in an inclusive spirit instead of exclusive. (Bypassing all the discussion of how it is really technically indefeasible to create something that way which isn’t run live and decided on-the-spot.)

And “well you did this event and now it’s forever locked into this result” runs that edge of exclusion. What about the people who couldn’t make it . . . such as those who come after? We got a taste of the outrage with the Ancient Karka Shell Chest, didn’t we, and the players said:

“Don’t do that crap again.”

So, if you want to talk about how the advertising hype failed? Think on that. The players decided they didn’t want that sort of thing. And they really decided they didn’t like missing bits of LS1 and losing out the chance to participate or get neat stuff. They had that starting way early on (two months post-release) and pretty much got beaten into backing off the mark.

One final minor tangent, and more of a personal reflection put here to be read.

There was another “living world” which existed about ten years ago, maybe fifteen. It had all kinds of the same problems of not being remotely “alive” and no single character had any individual impact on anything which happened unless it was all pre-planned and laid out in advance. It was even backed pretty decently . . . it was called “Living Greyhawk”. And that had the benefit of not being hamstrung by code, or game engines, or voice acting costs.

Why would I expect anything to succeed with those limits attached?

Shriketalon.1937:

If it isn’t in the game, it doesn’t exist. If it never makes it from your head to the page, it is never written.

If that were the case, people would need to stop trying to make me eat crow for saying “Mordremoth doesn’t exist” when the only sign of it existing at all was the name of one skill on one enemy.

You cannot ask us to pretend that you wrote the missing chapter of your novel. If it isn’t in the game, it does not exist. If it never happened in game, it did not happen.

They really needed extra time to polish all these things before serving it to the players. I wish I could have played a game where they’d had specifically six more months just to sit down and run through dialogue and make sure this stuff flows well and makes sense.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

You’re missing the point again. If the “birthright” is about us, then it would have changed us. For instance, when my charr found the item, it should be a unique weapon skin or something that aesthetically changed my character. Or the item can be exchanged for a land, house, or my own legion, or something. With the human unknown parents it can be as simple as something written on the gravestone of my father like;

“A father who will always play the Seraph for his son playing as the Thief.”

.. and if you’re a warrior for example;

“A father who will always play the Thief for his son playing as the Seraph.”

With something simple thing like that takes the story to a personal level.

Instead we get a generic address “…our beloved <Character Name>.”

Addressed later, largely as “polish” which just wasn’t there.

Also, my character’s “birthright” doesn’t change him because that would get in the way of how modular the PS material is – it can’t change them significantly or else it might not make sense when it mad-libs the rest into it.

Again, an issue of polish and finesse. But it doesn’t mean the story wasn’t about my charr, just because they fumbled the persistence of that detail. It still was about the charr and finding the treasure, not anyone else.

That is my point, primarily and once more stated again because you’re not listening.

Again, my point exactly. If those are details to be ad-libbed it only reinforce what I’m saying that the story is not personal — since everything personal are ad-lib.

But . . . that’s almost always the case when you have a setup like this one. It’s always the case in Elder Scrolls that the character might make no sense for what role they need you to play (“A Khajit as the Nevarine? Why not?”). It’s always the case in most games where the role is not so tightly defined and the actions meticulously scripted to make sure there is no doubt about your character’s . . . character.

I’m not saying that ArenaNet should put them in — they don’t have to and I’m ok with the things are. However, don’t expect me to call it “personal story” after they leaving things out.

At the end of the day, I expect you to call it “Personal Story” (proper noun) because that’s what it’s called. Doesn’t make it so, but at the same time, your insistence doesn’t make it not personal 100% of the time.

Isn’t that what they’ve done to “personal” story — it’s about us telling the GM about our characters?

I think that’s the right approach — but don’t call it “personal” because it isn’t.

Well, from experience, it’s never personal, or all about one person at the gaming table. Or if it is, your GM has done something terribly wrong and needs to be flogged with gusto. The story of a tabletop RPG needs to be about the group as a whole, not a singular character.

It doesn’t matter.

It always matters.

~snip~
Similarly, ‘The Hobbit’ is never about Bilbo Baggins, it’s about the dwarves.

Actually is about the brewing evil and the dragon Smaug, but I digress.

Actually, no, it was a bedtime story which was adlibbed for a large part of it and it wasn’t until Lord of the Rings was started details needed to be added and retconned to make “There and Back Again” into something consistent in-universe.

I don’t see the GW2 story a problem at all. The problem lies on the notion that the “personal” is personal —which is not -- and the fact that players bought into the idea that GW2 is about the player — which is also not.

If we all accept this simple fact, and shatter the illusion concocted by the ArenaNet ad campaign, that it’s not about the player and their chracter, then we’ll see no problem with what they are doing at all. It will all make sense.

Oh, it’s all about the player. Not necessarily the character at all times. But it is about the player, outside the Personal Story, and what they do with Tyria as presented to them. Or don’t do, in the case of the people who largely play WvW.

Now, whether this is executed well . . .

Don’t think these are ‘a waste’. I do think some are better than others, perhaps. See Karizee’s link, for instance . . .

And it’s nice when going roaming in the world (or WvW) since it can allow some really interesting potential paths taken.

RoseofGilead.8907:

Since you really can’t do anything to stop them, you might want to consider changing the time you do your missions (at least for a couple of weeks).

If they’re just doing it for the lulz, doing it quietly when they don’t get the chance of screwing it up might just make them bored enough to move on to greener pastures.

I understand bot lane needs some feeding done.

KarateKid.5648:

Facepunch.5710:

…
Jory: “Looks like it was this jungle dragon that was whispering those ‘sweet nothings’ into Scarlet’s head the whole time, doll.”
Kasmeer: “Your detective skills are what I love most about you!” * swoon *
Taimi: “Poor Scarlet!”
Braham: “Aw, sorry kiddo, come snuggle Uncle Braham.”
Rox: “Why am I even here?”…

Immortalized the biconics right thurr!

. . . for a second, and only a second, I was hearing this with RvB voices in my head. Then it became Team Four Star.

Jemmi.6058:

Complaint is like TV. If you miss the show love you likely have to pay for the DVD or download

I hear iTunes is good if the network sells through them. It’s how I caught up on Lost in the time before I could get the DVDs for Season 3 :P

Alternatively, there’s NetFlix and Hulu for whole shows you missed out on. (“Holy crap, Simon Baker had another show before he was Patrick Jane?” -presses ’add to queue- )

tekfan.3179:

The level of detail a character can have is of course limited in games like this and we fill out the gaps.
However, couldn’t the game-world react? Couldn’t we share a bit, at least a tiny bit?
Aside from the journal and a few mostly mute characters in the home-instance there is nothing in the world that takes note of the characters actions.

I suppose so, but we run into issues with time, more notably the time to make those little adjustments and inclusions. Frankly, ANet didn’t leave themselves enough time for that phase of development the first time or the next time and quite likely this time too.

It’s a criticism I do level at them – they did not budget time well enough. It doesn’t matter exactly what obstacles came up, they simply didn’t get there. I’d go into it further but this problem is better saved for a different topic. I’ll leave it at this:

Guild Wars 2 probably would not have suffered terribly if what we got as “Lost Shores” was pushed back and instead we had “Into Zhaitan’s Lair”.

Did you play the LW-Story where you killed Scarlet or not?
Did you kill Zhaitan before entering Season 2?

Those assumptions are part of the issue, I suppose, when I said they’re not leaving time for the polish.

Another example:

I have that experience too, actually, but it was piggy-backing through on someone else’s PS chapter where Crusader Deborah was there and it didn’t check journal flags to see if it should react. I mean, it’s not my PS so I didn’t expect it to but it would have been nice. I was “lucky” in that my Orr trip didn’t have me meet characters I already knew, except for Doern.

Exactly the point I crave and which I think Vincent does, too. Why limit the interactivity when a few more lines of text or one or two checks of the Story Journal could improve the immersion imensely?

See above: it’s the time issue. That points to a layer of polish which hadn’t been given time to be done.

I’ve experienced letdowns too. Namely Mass Effect.

A series I’m not touching primarily for learning how the touted “your choices matter” boils down to “red, green, or blue” in the end. Okay, that’s oversimplifying it but I’ve watched Spoiler Warning (and SF Debris) . . . so when I see what was going on there, I pretty much confirmed my fears – the choices don’t matter as much as they should.

(I do highly recommend the Chuck Sonnenberg play of ME2, by the way. Heck I recommend him completely – he’s worthwhile and entertaining.)

Yet you say that you’d find it a limitation to ignore the personal story, so story seems to have importance to you.

I find any choice I make where I purposefully leave material aside is a limitation. Sometimes it’s a good thing, sometimes not. I would prefer to not pretend Tobias had nothing to do with the Pact, or anything which happened previous. I’d much rather own it and work with it.

I don’t expect every decision I make to make a difference in the outcome, but at least the world could react to more of them, aside from my pc’s race.

There’s more than a few instances I can recall but they’re highly limited and it shows where the time ran out for that kind of polish. Want an instance? Go visit Rytlock’s office in the Black Citadel with a non-charr ranger. That is the kind of polish missing from about the point where the three Orders start to enter into the game.

. . . unless you go with the Whispers. Then there’s some interesting dialogue options you can happen into. I’d tell you more, but they’d probably kill me.

However, the things that already happened in the personal story of a pc could at least get some attention.

Half these things are because LS1 was being generated separated from the PS so it didn’t need to be joined since there are so many people who claim they quit the PS due to a certain necromancer entering the cast. The other half can almost be waved away due to potential in-world reasons. (The Wildlands are kind of the bass-ackward end of nowhere, a dead-end posting from what I gathered.)

However, at least some npc’s should recognize the character and react to the pc in some way. May it be that the Seraph-leader at brisbain recognizes the pc as the Commander who brought down Zhaitan and makes a comment that the group should be in good hands and can take care of their own in uncharted territory.

Given the note of how LS2 now assumes the PS is finished, that’s another sign there wasn’t enough polishing done from what I can see.

Thanks for the discussion. I think I’ve about said all I could without getting into repetitions of the same thing. (“ANet, please, polish is not just for the tile floors.”)

So it’s not malicious . . . instead it’s incompetent?

The Pale Tree isn’t Doc Scratch. I don’t think it has malicious intent.

tekfan.3179:

I can understand why you may see this as an opportunity. If you’re into roleplaying, a blank sheet of paper is allowing you to fill it with whatever you want.
I ran into a group of roleplayers standing at the beach of Sunshine cove and chatting at the bar, talking about how delicious the food was and how they enjoy their vacation.
I’d be lying if I said I didn’t almost laugh my butt off(no offense), but if that’s the way they enjoy the game, I’m also happy they enjoyed themselves.

I don’t go to that extreme, mind you, but it’s more in the context of filling out the details Mr. Vincent asked about way up-thread. Does my character have a rival? What did he do growing up? Why pick the particular profession they did? What do they do when there’s no focus on them (between Personal Story segments, for instance)? Do they like music, reading, acting or watching actors?

I don’t expect ANet or any company to tell me that when I’m playing a game where my character isn’t just a viewpoint from which I see the world (again, JRPGs vs Western RPGs).

However…
Then what do you need the Living story for at all?
Join a roleplaying-guild and ignore the personal story completely. Let the world be your sheet of paper and nothing else. Blank, spared of any interactivity except for the combat-system and the shop-interactions.
If that’s your kind of opportunity, grab it. Create a character, level it to 80 and only interact with other roleplayers, instead of the interactive story.

Why limit myself so thoroughly when there’s plenty of stuff to make use of?

On my part I want to delve deep into a rich story. I enjoy the interactivity of a game.
If I can tell the game that my favourite color is blue and a NPC later sends me a blue dye as a gift or I suddenly find a blue paradise bird in my story instance, that’s a marble of interactivity for me, rather than a cage that limits my experience.

Yeah, the difference is I don’t expect deep, rich stories in my games. In my experience, the more story the developers put into the game, the less there is for me to do with it. There may be branches, and options, but in the end they matter only as a means of getting me to the final part of the story where those decisions might not even affect the outcome in more than a few lines of text.

In short, I want to be part of a game’s world. If there is a Living Story for my character to play, I enjoy it when it’s interactive and the world itself reacts to it.

Reacts to your character, or to the Living Story? Because so far it seems the world is reacting to the LS events and progression (the vines), though it’s far too early to call it one way or another for the whole of LS2. If you’re talking about the character, that’s never going to happen outside something like a MUD where there’s someone in charge changing the the stage dressings in reaction to what players do. There’s too much in the way of potential for people developing the game to get it all.

For instance – I still can’t load asura into trebuchets and launch them back to Rata Sum from Fort Salma. And other players can’t lead a force of Separatists against the Black Citadel to try to retake Ascalon. And yet more players can’t just squat down somewhere in the Shiverpeaks and make a fort from which to fight the Icebrood.

And most importantly . . .

Nobody can beat some sense into Logan over his infatuation with Queen Jennah.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Isn’t that my original point all along? — that the personal story is not about you instead you simply choose to believe in the illusion that it was, even though the story states otherwise? The “personal story” is nothing but an instanced “heart” quest.

I’m not sure if that was your original point, but you’ve went from discussion to just telling me it is all in my head. I don’t know what further to discuss in that vein, because I’ve pointed out about that particular one several times it’s about your character, my character, any other person’s character a lot more than it is about a long-dead father. They’re dead. The only bearing they have is they left this birthright and it’s on our characters to find it.

Or to abandon the storyline right there and never bother with it again, you could always do that as a nice middle finger to a deadbeat I suppose.

You can write in your journal how you completed the heart quest and log every heroic deeds, but the reality is, the heart quest is not about you. If someone else is reliving your adventures through your journal entries, then that would be about you, but not about that someone else.

Hold that thought . . .

That’s my point! The “you” are missing in the story, thus it become necessary to fill in the “holes”. The “you” is not part of the story and now you admit that you have to scribble it in your individual story.

Those are only holes for those who care about them. There’s more than likely as many players who don’t care about what their character’s favorite food is, or what they got for their fifteenth birthday, than there are those who can tell you those details ad-libbing the whole time.

They’re extraneous details for the large picture, and they’re left out because they shouldn’t be focused on before the whole of the story is actually done. (Bear in mind, they were still working on things months before release in that regard.)

Putting on my writer’kitten, there’s a reason we don’t have to hear about what color the drapes are in a room characters pass through on the way to somewhere. There’s a reason we don’t need to know what they had for every meal when we see them, and there’s a reason we don’t need to hear about their first spoken words . . . unless any of it is important to any piece of plot. You have a finite amount of “real estate” when you write a story, and you have to be careful about what you fill it with or you’ll run out of space. (And then the readers won’t care how well you describe your meals, Mr. George R.R. Martin.)

Putting on my tabletop player’kitten, it’s a different approach much the same. I don’t need the GM to tell me my character. I would rather tell the GM about them, and have them meet at least halfway on things.

And putting on my RPG player’s hat? Either go the JRPG route and give me fully realized characters, or WRPG and give me blank slates for me to project onto.

“You can write in your journal how you completed the heart quest and log every heroic deeds, but the reality is, the heart quest is not about you. If someone else is reliving your adventures through your journal entries, then that would be about you, but not about that someone else reliving your story.”

I’ll make one final note on this thread of discussion – pick up any novel and I’ll guarantee you’ll find the story is probably not about the protagonists in it. I could, and have, made the argument ‘Romeo and Juliet’ is not about the titular characters so much as it is about the circumstances which drive them into tragedy. Similarly, ‘The Hobbit’ is never about Bilbo Baggins, it’s about the dwarves.

Simply put — the personal story is the background landscape to define the settings, not the player, the players can then do what ever they want on the foreground.

The difference between you and I is that you see this as a problem, and I see it as an opportunity.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Read your Story Journal again, it says; “The chest contained a Diessa Chalice…” which is a human artifact. That items tells nothing about the Charr nor about your character, the only connection it had to you is that your father and his warbard were the ones who found it.

. . . you are deliberately missing my point it seems. The item itself does not matter, the search for it is what the chapter is about. It is not about the father, it is not about “what’s in the box”, it’s not about where the treasure came from.

It’s about my character searching for it, because he wants to. Not because it’s a powerful weapon needed by the greater plot, not because anyone else is pushing my character into doing it.

It might as well be a sled named “Rosebud” for all the significance the item has.

This is why I said in my previous posts that it is only a “personal story” only because you choose it to be personal, even though the story had nothing to do with your character in a personal level.

Again, don’t see how that chapter isn’t personal. Someone tried to kill the character, and the story stopped being about the parents until the end when there’s a final capstone of “do you really want to know”.

I don’t know about them taking you in, no mention about that that I recall.

And there’s no mention they didn’t. That choice is mine to make, as it should be.

Like I’ve said, it’s a subjective matter — you choose it to be personal and it was so.

. . . so if that’s the case, then how can you say it wasn’t personal before and now say it is if I choose it to be?

I don’t agree, I think the choices which are made through the course of the Personal Story define the character and are supposed to show a path.

I’m sorry but GW2 lacks a story-based character definition. A good defining moment would have been my example above about the unknown parents.

Hold on, I’ll come back to this.

In any given story, there’s a character development process that makes the audience sympathetic to the character. If this key process is missing, the audience feels detached. Reflecting on my noble human Thief, nobody has a problem that I am a noble and a Thief. This should raise a red flag and my good friend Lord Faren should be nagging me to change profession and I would reply with some noble goal why I choose the profession. That would have defined my character and separate him from other human nobles. And if my character is a street rat and my unknow parents left me a fortune and I choose to give it to the poor — that would have been the greatest moment for my character because that deed is more noble than being an actual noble.

Well if you want to play that card, the game should remember it set aside the names “Tobias Trueflight” and other ones from my GW1 account and reference them, but they don’t. So there’s absolutely no consistency of the world because it “forgot” there was a “Tobias Trueflight” two hundred and fifty years ago.

There’s even less since people who know my character for a long time don’t know he is a ranger. Or that he had a lost sister until the relevant chapter. Or have anything to say about a mesmer turning his grandfather into a moa permanently because of an argument, which is why Tobias never uses moa pets.

There’s a lot of holes in the narrative, and it . . . to me . . . seems like a conscious choice because it allows players to scribble in their own notes and make up their own individual stories.

The idea of the game being about you is nothing but an advertising hype. The game as we both agree was never about one character.

I thought you said earlier if I choose to make it personal then it is? So if I choose to have my own journal which details everything which goes on (everything) and keeps it in-character, then how is it not my story? If I wrote in there how my charr joined the Vigil because he didn’t trust the other two orders to be capable enough of keeping Tyria safe, then that’s his story. If I choose to write Tobias joined a different order because he believed in their methods, then that’s his story. If I choose to write about my maniac asura engineer wanting to beat Taimi with a spanner because of how clueless she is, that’s his story.

No offense, but I do want the option of defining my characters more sharply to be in my hands and not someone else’s.

Dusty Moon.4382:

I really disliked mapping in GW1 as part of the map was Glitching, in order to 100% of all maps. I never finished it because it was not fun to me and utterly boring. I am not saying GW2 is any easier or better but, certainly you don’t have to scrape every corner, etc. That I don’t miss at all.

I never glitched to Grandmaster Cartographer. I did, however, have to do stupid JPG manipulations to try to find stuff which I hadn’t uncovered for the last 1.9% . . .

BlueZone.4236:

Yeah, I like my content the same way I like my meals. Served on a plate rather than drip fed.

I dunno, I really liked going to hibachi grills for a long time, where you got served one course at a time. Salad and soup, then rice, then one piece of grilled stuff at a time. I also really like when I go out to eat, and they don’t bring my appetizers and my entree and my dessert all at once.

Sorry, I care more about the quality and pacing of my meal . . . and my gaming . . . than whether I get it all now.

(Don’t take that to mean I think GW2 does either 100% right, by the way. So far the best prize for quality and pacing all still fall to still single-player games.)

Sir Vincent III.1286:

As for the other mentors; there was a suggestion way back when that since Sieran cannot come back as an undead, the other mentors should be part of the undead resistance when the Orders are retaking the island — which should prove that they did sacrificed themselves and did not run away like pansies.

I still think Tybalt jumped into the ocean and swam to Istan where he is drinking fruity drinks with little umbrellas in them.

No, not really. I think it’s just stupid how each and every one of the mentors decided they had to stay behind, when Tybalt is an engineer and could have come up with a way of rigging the gate to stay shut, Forgal could have held the line until the last minute, and Sieran could have used sylvari vines to reinforce the gate.

It’s unnecessary pathos.

It has been decided. It’s obvious that what we’ve seen in the recent releases was decided long time ago and there’s no way we’ll ever be able to change their minds — we can’t go back to the past. That decision resulted our characters to play Dr. Watson while NPCs around us plays Sherlock Holmes.

I’d love to be played by Lucy Liu or Jude Law. Unfortunately I don’t have that luxury.

. . . I’d even let myself be played by Burnie Burns, but that’s not going to happen.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I apologize for mistakenly thinking that you were talking about the gladium path. Regardless, how is loyal soldier path about you and not about your father and his treasure?

And when you find the treasure…it’s more about somebody else. It would have been nice if it shines a light about your past, not you father’s past.

It does shine a light about my past, and not my character’s father . . . because it belongs to my character and the search was my character’s search, and the enemies my character’s enemies. The treasure is a birthright left by the father but it is not about how he got it, where it is from, or what it is. It’s about my character going “this is my birthright, and if it was meant for me then I’m going to find it”.

I don’t know how you begin to think this is about the father, in this case. I don’t even recall them talking about the father except to note he was a Loyal Soldier.

The only reason you are targeted is not because it’s personal, it’s because you are your parents’ child — you’re just an accessory.

I doubt the killer even know your name.

There is little more personal than “I insist this person has to die”, but that’s not the full deal.

Again, it starts with the parents, and while it bookends with the parents . . . the middle is about how my character handles the trouble. It’s not about the parents beyond the initial impetus . . . like the Loyal Soldier path, it’s the seed which starts the story but not the story itself.

Sorry, but Andrew and Petra are just friendly neighbors who probably know as much as you as you know of your character — nothing.

Ah, but they took in Tobias Trueflight and helped raise him.

I understand the constraints but I am not one to believe in the delusion that the personal story is about my character.

Eh, I only half agree. It’s about my character’s journey, even if the plot doesn’t revolve around them. (And gods am I tired of that . . . recently replayed Baldur’s Gate and remembered how, similarly, it’s not about my character so much as it is people hunting for them and a plot pulling puppet strings along the way.)

If I am to believe that, then my actual personal story happened during my character creation and not in the actual “personal story”. The character creation says more about my character than the actual story ever did.

I don’t agree, I think the choices which are made through the course of the Personal Story define the character and are supposed to show a path.

You said “I’d add…” so how was that out of context?

Because I didn’t add it to the others because it’s one where the plot is entirely about something else. It’s entirely about Falcon Company and the past events which the character is discovering now and dealing with. It’s still one of the better written segments. (Also good, Forgal’s mission where you get inducted into the Vigil.)

That question I ignored because it’s irrelevant and sounds rhetorical.

It’s very relevant to the discussion.

But if you want an answer, then yes, there can be more than one special hero. According to ArenaNet, my character was “the” commander of the Pact, but now he’s “a” commander of the Pact. Being the commander is personal, being a commander, not so much. However, even in the current plot of the Pact, my character was never “the” commander because if I choose a path, someone else completes the other paths.

ArenaNet have dissolved the idea of “singular” and “personal” even before launch. The ad campaign was accurate when they were still developing the game but was not delivered on release because of the fact that they are not building a single-player game.

Eh, I don’t know. Again, it may be the writer and tabletop roleplayer in me but the story is more in the journey than the details, and it is compounded by how you handle it. Are the Personal Story bits just minor bits to get done and move on, are they small-stage pieces of story, or are they singular points out of a whole tapestry you choose to weave together from those events and what happens with your character between Green Star Nodes?

Bingo! With other players running around, how can you then say that the game and the story is about one character? What I’m saying is, it never was.

The game isn’t about one character (and never was), and the story is still not about one character (not even Trahearne or Zhaitan) . . . it’s about a lot of characters, and ours happens to be in there as well.

It’s a start, not the whole thing.

1/2

Obsidian.1328:

They could have tried to stay relevant in the hard-knock world of PvP game development. Instead they chose the safe route in fear of losing a healthy bottom line. There’s nothing really terribly wrong with that I suppose, you gotta pay the bills right? I guess ANet never struck me as the kind of game studio to give up so easily. /shrug

Eh, so they’re not Riot Games (I’m glad for that). I’m rather happy with the PvE content developed by ANet.

. . . don’t take that to mean I’m salivating over it and waving signs going “the story is teh awesumm!”. It’s serviceable for me, and it’s pretty much what I wanted and expected out of it. (GW1 and GW2)

The LS is less about “us” and more about “the world”. For some this is an issue, but it does boil down to one question which keeps coming up and I don’t have a real good answer to:

Just how many singular “special heroes” can there be?

. . . at least it’s handled better than EverQuest handled its vaunted Epic Weapon quests. "Sweet, I deciphered the mysteries of the elements long thought to be impossible to reconcile and have the Orb of Magi’Kot . . . as does most every magician past 60 . . . "

What I’m saying is, it was never about us to begin with. The idea that it’s about us is nothing but an advertising hype that was never delivered.

What I asked was a question you ignored, but everyone should reflect on since Angel and Bobby have said it in different ways. So have Ree and Jeff from time to time -

Just how many singular “special heroes” can there be?

It’s an MMO, there are hundreds of us (if you believe the game is declining in population, otherwise “thousands of us”) running around, and the more you tie events to one character the more the other players’ characters are also “the chosen one” or whatever you call it.

It’s bad enough I know there’s many many more people who have Crusader Deborah as their long-lost-now-found sister. Or who were recruited into the Gear Warband. Or who watched Sieran die.

Honestly, and personally, I really want ANet’s writing and planning staff to decide if we’re going to have story revolve around our inclusion or move along around us. It doesn’t seem as if they can really decide sometimes . . .

2/2

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’m . . . pretty sure that’s not entirely the case. My Blood Legion charr had part of his chapter there where he was hunting down something which had been left to him from his father, and it was pretty much about his birthright and not the people in the intermediate parts.

If you reflect on what actually transpired, you’ll see that it’s all about your father and not you.

You’re not thinking the right path. I took the “Loyal Soldier” path, where the events were centered on finding that heirloom because it was owed to my charr. This was not “Honorless Gladium” or “Sorcerous Shaman”.

It started with “by the way, your father left you this”, but it’s entirely about my character deciding it’s his and going to get it. The enemies are not his father’s enemies, they are his.

Furthermore, the one human storyline where White Mantle are after you due to your parentage is decidedly about you. (It also has Logan being useful and amusing.)

Again, this is more about your parents than you. Nothing was mentioned who brought you up and kept you safe all this time ever since your parents died. Nothing was mentioned about which school you attended, who’s your mentor, who’s your childhood rival was, love interest, etc. Nothing.

No, it’s about my character. After all, he’s the one being targeted for death, isn’t that right? Cannot get more personal than “I am going to kill you”.

Well none of that is relevant to the short little plotline, is it? Though if it had been my ranger, it would have been the Commoner thread, so we would have known who kept him safe since his parents died.

Repeating something I said a lot during the CDIs – the Personal Story chapters really seemed too “interchangeable” in some places, to the point where the seams became really visible. This was one such instance.

. . . lastly, there’s the norn chapter where you blacked out at a moot. And happened to steal a charr tank and “lose” it. So you’re press-ganged until it’s either found or you’ve served time enough. Yeah, that’s sort of about you since you’re basically owning up for your screwup.

Again, this is more about your Charr chugging buddy than you. You’re simply blamed on what had happened. Nothing was ever mentioned on who you are before the incident nor what were the circumstances between you and the Charr.

Again . . . because who you are before the incident is not relevant to the plot thread there. Why do you have this fascination with extraneous details? From a writers’ standpoint, you have limited time and “real estate” to deal with the plot . . . and in these little chapters ANet left themselves barely enough time to handle the plot they chose.

Why complicate it with yet more threads which don’t go anywhere and might not ever come up? And from another angle . . . why decide these sort of things for the player when it could be their choice to fill in these blanks themselves?

I’d add Fall of Falcon Company in on that, because I actually really enjoyed the writing of that one.

I agree that the writing is enjoyable, yet it has nothing to do about you, it’s about a missing Seraph Company and the injustice of the captain — one of the soldier simply just happen to be your sister.

Way to take that out of context, thank you very much. I put that in the part where I talked about really good parts which didn’t have anything to do with the player character directly.

1/2

Kohlteth.3715:

Back on topic …… I think they are trying with GW2, but Devs being held back by share holders screaming for more money so limited in what they can do !

This is why it’s usually foolish to try an MMO, because the people who sign your checks want guaranteed money. And, huh, that World of Warcraft thingy is making a lot of money and getting a lot of players so maybe we should . . .

And then there’s the point about offering a game which is “pay once and done” – servers take money to run, people need to get paid, so there has to be some reason for more money to get forked over on a semiregular basis. Either in new players buying in or cash shop stuff.

To quote, not in the same context, the person I am replying to:

Hence why no new skins apart from Gem store

Though “no new skins” is not technically true, because there’s stuff which gets added which you can get. Champion bags added a handful of interesting exotic skins, there were some during Living Story, there was the recent Sovereign skins . . . and then the WvW skins you got for Season 2.

Finally, the inclusion of the Wardrobe now allows most skins to get saved up . . . so long as Transmutation Charges are a gemstore item (or popped out of Black Lion Chests) then allowing replication of gemstore-purchased skins doesn’t seem too terrible.

At least, I say that until I remember there are players who probably have like 100 charges saved up anyway . . .

ZudetGambeous.9573:

That’s probably because all the crazy map people found the centaur camp outside of the dry top map last week, so we already knew there would be centaurs coming.

It will be interesting to see how they play into the story though.

Also, GW1 vets like myself heard something about centaurs and remember farming Maguuma Manes.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sylvaris didn’t exist when the world began because they are non-essential to the well being of Tyria. That’s nothing but a Sylvari propaganda — the Sylvari race can disappear and Tyria will continue to exist.

Technically, humanity can disappear from Earth and it would continue to exist, too.

Honestly, there is a point here . . . the sylvari are not here to keep the world in balance, I think. They’re here to help ensure this iteration of the cycle of Elder Dragons waking doesn’t end in everything being destroyed and them going back to sleep.

That’s right. The sylvari are Tyrian Commander Shepherds.

. . . kill them quickly before we get to the asura building a machine they don’t know how it works based on desperation and it offers only a choice of red, blue, or green.

Mister Midnight.9837:

You’re getting all kinds of congratulation for killing Scarlet? Well goodness do I feel cheated, or blind as can be. I seem to be missing it.

Well, there was the question which raised a fuss on the forums some months ago in the “Aftermath” instance in the Dead End where Marjory acknowledged you’d done it among other people . . .

By the way, another instance of the PS 1-20 not being entirely around the NPCs is the human storyline in chapter 1. Especially the street rat and commoner storylines, the noble one not so much . . . but it has Lord Faren being a goof so I forgive it.

Also, Blood Legion’s opening chapter? I really like how that one turned out. Building your own warband and then getting to use it? I loved it.

Bolthar.7192:

And perhaps the OP’s intention isn’t to have an impact on the direction of the game but rather just to express their opinions. That aside, some changes have been made to the game based on player input. As an example I offer the world boss event timers.

You can also add in the Daily/Monthly revamp which was done (three times), Champion Loot Bags, Account-binding Dyes, Wardrobe, not being able to revive ranger pets, the Story Journal, the Wallet . . .

Kohlteth.3715:

Then again Prequels can be the same … Look at Star Wars Episode IV / V/ VI compared to I/II/III …. Jar Jar Binks, nuff said lol !

I don’t know who you’re talking about, there are no such thing as gungans in Star Wars, and certainly not even a remote chance of a CGI Yoda instead of the Jim Henson puppet.

. . . though in seriousness and not in sarcasm, the Episodes 1-3 of Star Wars prove it’s a questionable idea to go back to your franchise after a lot of time has passed. Also on this list (despite how much I enjoy it) is Doctor Who . . . where the revival has a different feel for it than the classic and your mileage may vary on how that works for you.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

If you really believe that the Personal Story is all about you up to level 20 — you are mistaken — you simply believe that it was, and it was so. If you review everything you’ve done from Level 1 -20, none of them are about you -- it’s always been about somebody else.

I’m . . . pretty sure that’s not entirely the case. My Blood Legion charr had part of his chapter there where he was hunting down something which had been left to him from his father, and it was pretty much about his birthright and not the people in the intermediate parts.

Furthermore, the one human storyline where White Mantle are after you due to your parentage is decidedly about you. (It also has Logan being useful and amusing.)

. . . lastly, there’s the norn chapter where you blacked out at a moot. And happened to steal a charr tank and “lose” it. So you’re press-ganged until it’s either found or you’ve served time enough. Yeah, that’s sort of about you since you’re basically owning up for your screwup.

I can see where you come from about a lot of the PS being less about the character but at the same time there are a few examples where it is. And those are actually some of the better chapters you can have. (I’d add Fall of Falcon Company in on that, because I actually really enjoyed the writing of that one. Also some of the norn chapters were really nice.)

The LS is less about “us” and more about “the world”. For some this is an issue, but it does boil down to one question which keeps coming up and I don’t have a real good answer to:

Just how many singular “special heroes” can there be?

. . . at least it’s handled better than EverQuest handled its vaunted Epic Weapon quests. "Sweet, I deciphered the mysteries of the elements long thought to be impossible to reconcile and have the Orb of Magi’Kot . . . as does most every magician past 60 . . . "

LotuS.4378:

Unloveableone.6082:

Yes, let’s remove something that so many people love and enjoying playing and replace it with a game mode for elitist guilds to show their kitten off instead!
Again, no.

While I am all for GvG being introduced again, replacing an already existing game mode with it is lolable.

Also, if you want “real pvp” go play Spvp.

hehehe

people stop enjoying wvw like half year ago, when most of community left GW2.

stop creating delusion world around you bro.

Yeah, don’t you know there are no more “real” players of GW2 left, all that’s left are all the fake players.

CureForLiving.5360:

Ayriuss.8205:

There is much more to Norn society than brute force and ego and I think it should be explored more.

It’s mostly drinking and that’s not particularly complicated :P

You’d be surprised . . .

tekfan.3179:

I agree completely that not every character in GW1 was the memorable depthly creation like Gwen.

And even that has issues when you step back. Issues as in you can stop and go “. . . that’s Sarah Conner”.

Still I remember Mhenlo’s relation with Cynn and the constant bickering in it.
I remember Thackeray and how he tried to land on Gwen, I remember Glint…there are so much iconic characters I remember who played a big role without ever making me feel like I played their henchmen, instead of going on an adventure with them.

Lieutenant Thackeray was better than most, but he was still . . . I dunno, “Dogged Nice Guy” pursuing a girl who couldn’t accept him. At least until after War in Kryta. Then he got more work done on him . . . primarily because it was decided Logan had to exist descended from him.

(The apple does not fall far from the tree, I will note, with regards to these two characters.)

While the GW1-characters had a lot more appearances in the multiple expansions than the GW2 B-Iconics so far, I think that’s not all of it.
However, most of the characters in GW1 were nothing but henchmen you picked up like mercenaries while Anet designed the Living Story with the B-Iconics as main-protagonists. They are supposed to be the big friends the pc made while fighting off Scarlet and her minions, yet we know barely anything about them.

We know as much if not more than we did about henchmen like Stefan or Aleisa, despite four “chapters” of campaign/expansion work. Heck, we know more about at least two of them than we do about Prince Rurik who we were supposed to feel for when he died.

Mostly I feel more attached to the dead order-tutors than to the posse we’re running with now.

The further I get from the death of Tybalt the more I think he was a wasted opportunity of a character. He should have been saved to die in Orr rather than that early, and we should have gotten a better Whispers mentor.

Also, can’t wait to see Sieran die. Horribly. I may abandon the mission at the last minute so I can watch it again.

We had a few combat-instances with them in Season 1 and Taimi only attached herself to the group at the end without having much to do either.

I’ll take “reasons to never ever put children in your MMO for 1000, Alex”.

GW1 often managed to introduce characters in a short time way better than the Bicons until now.
My example: Eye of the North.
Within minutes I was taken by Ogden and Vekk.
Vekk, Jora and Ogden had established their role within minutes with their character design and dialouge.
Simply as Jora paced towards the group with her armor and size in the first encounter she embodied everything norn that I had to know.
The only character of the B-Iconics that managed to take me like that within the first minutes was Rox, which is probably the reason why I like her the most.

It’s funny, I didn’t know enough about Rox until after her instance to really like her. I liked Braham more, basically for going “no, you have to do something and if you’re not going to, I will” about the Molten Alliance attacks.

In my opinion Anet should have interjected a short time of peace between the two seasons with a few short story-instances to get to know the Bicons personally.

That takes time to develop and handle, and I don’t want them to run their efforts too close to the red line of “will this make it to finish and polish in time?” . . . because they did that already and what we got was the Zhaitan fight.

No. Thank. You.

I’d like to see the teams work on some sideline stuff they can slide in during LS2 where we can do downtime with them presumably at the Tangle Root camp and talk about things. Like the one instance in Lion’s Arch during the Marionette chapter . . .

I’d like them, much more, to think ahead to “Season 2 Epilogue” which can get some of these minor ideas integrated then . . . heck, let them be someone’s side-project like the SAB.

Ronin.7381:

I’d think if there was any dragon-fight for him to get involved in, it would be this one. Better now and take the opportunity so once this threat is over we can hop into the next Season focusing on Prim, Jorm, or Kral.

Him to get involved and pull a self-sacrifice to get him out of the story while giving us a reason to step into the leadership position?

tekfan.3179:

If five random tyrians, who failed years ago at killing an elder dragon, are known to everyone while the pc, with all those achievements, is meant to remain unrecognized in a period of two years of heroic deeds, something is off.

It’s more a sign they had no real idea how to integrate the PC into the Living Story with Personal Story in mind, other than to assume they had already finished it (see the obvious patch over it in how you now must finish Personal Story to get into LS2). They were clearly not sure how far to take it and what to assume player characters had already done other than their tutorial instances . . .

And they’re playing catch-up now, which makes it frustrating to watch and there’s small fumbles here and there which I overlook but when brought up go “yeah, hm”. Fridge Logic at its finest . . .

Honestly, there is character to the B-iconics but it suffers from them not being consistently present in LS1 and sometimes not entirely present at all other than to be stuck in there as “hey, we’re still here”. Aside from Tower of Nightmares and everything after that, the B-iconics got very little character to develop at all.

This is probably why they feel “easy to bleach out and blur” – which is also reminiscent of almost every other character in GW1 whose name was not Gwen.

Kohlteth.3715:

Comparing Sequels to originals never works, I can give you a perfect example of what a difference there can be

You skipped the easy target of Highlander movies for this target? Shame on you. Though I understand if they’d made any Matrix sequels, they could qualify easily.

Obsidian.1328:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

SkiTz.4590:

Its sad but pvp is the absolute last thing on anet’s “want to do” list. they literally could care less about it and its pretty evident.

The odd thing is, that almost feels like what the last couple years before GW2 in GW1 were like, aside from the usual balance patches. It just . . . was kind of there.

We both know that’s not because of GW’s original design principles. ANet’s philosophy changed over the years and wanted the game to shift to the PvE side, and they did just that. Not to mention power/skill creep being a huge factor in the disillusionment of the PvP community.

Calling early GW and late GW the same thing is like calling Roth’s Van Halen and Hagar’s Van Halen the same thing…

And yet, people aren’t differentiating, and as such we have a problem you put your finger on. ANet started focusing on PvE because . . . and I recall seeing this in a Q&A but can’t find it again . . . they intended the first game’s PvE to be a somewhat learning process to get the player to learn the basics of the system and then immediately jump into PvP. That . . . didn’t happen, for an overwhelming amount of players, so they shifted gears.

In short, even way back then the players and ANet weren’t in tune for the game’s ultimate purpose. (What a shocker.)

Eh, just file it this way:

The Pact is on a bit of down-time since Zhaitan was killed, their duties right now are in trying to keep a lid on Orr’s Risen (which still remain after Zhaitan died for some reason) and keeping a front active against the Icebrood and Claw of Jormag (yes, that is Pact up there). The Commander is not needed there, so they took leave and wound up sticking their nose into local affairs. (You can even claim it’s to build goodwill.)

The rest of it can be filed under “Chronic Hero Syndrome”. It’s assumed the Player Character is going to take part, rather than say “eh, screw this I’m going to find a Southsun beach not infested with karka or drakes and laze about for a few months”.

Or that they didn’t go “Oh, Forgal died? Good luck with the dragon suckers, I’m turning Mist Warrior.”

perilisk.1874:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Kaleban.9834:

ANet should take a page from the character design that went into the Mass Effect series.

Are . . . are you sure about this? Because they kind of did take a page from it. (And not much more.)

If they took a page from the Bioware playbook, people wouldn’t be complaining about the biconics’ dating habits, they’d be complaining about all the biconics (well, hopefully not Taimi) trying to get in their PC’s pants; that, or debating about which imaginary person they most want to have their imaginary character have imaginary dry-humping escapades with.

I was more meaning one, singular, page – the biography bit at the start of Mass Effect where you handle how your character’s past happened and having it mildly-but-not-too-much affect the dialogue.

perilisk.1874:

It isn’t that he takes credit, so much as that the writers inexplicably make everyone in the world give him credit he doesn’t deserve. He’s just a bad character in a bad story.

. . . okay, now I need to know where that happens.

perilisk.1874:

Also, the game tries to pretend that he is some sort of inspiring leader, but his VO doesn’t have nearly enough charisma to back that up.

You’re right, we should have gotten BRIAN BLESSED. (Yes the caps are mandatory.)

Kaleban.9834:

ANet should take a page from the character design that went into the Mass Effect series.

Are . . . are you sure about this? Because they kind of did take a page from it. (And not much more.)

SkiTz.4590:

Its sad but pvp is the absolute last thing on anet’s “want to do” list. they literally could care less about it and its pretty evident.

The odd thing is, that almost feels like what the last couple years before GW2 in GW1 were like, aside from the usual balance patches. It just . . . was kind of there.

Jaken.6801:

Ah, good old Nocturne… Sadly it always crashed for me…

If you don’t mind taking a step down, check for Digital Devil Saga. It also will allow you to satisfy that itch for “eight slot skill builds”. Also? Can be tough as balls, but unlike the previous game it doesn’t require a guide to get through.

Again. If you are thinking I want big giant branching tree in the story, then you are mistaken.

More that I want to address that particular sentiment others have brought up rather than your own points.

I actually just want to know how our Character ended up in that position, which is not based on us players outside of the game asuming that we just are.

Well, we were the ones who staked Scarlet. Not Kasmeer or anyone else. And from the NPC point of view, our Character was always at the forefront and so were the B-iconics, so it wound up being an assumption we haven’t deliberately kicked in the teeth like we were asura-punting.

At least we’re not the leader like this guy was the leader. Then I’d have to quit PvE and move on to WvW.

Nerelith.7360:

You forgot the part where in Guild Wars (There is no Guild Wars 2) You had many more skills, you could also pick ANY 8 skills you wanted from 2 separate classes, you had to hunt down bosses and kill them with ONLY 7 skills, since one had to be a signet of capture, instead of 5 weapon locked abilities. You had 9 different categories Into which you could spend ability points that had a GREATER effect on skills, than traits do in Gw2 ( 5 from primary class + 4 from secondary). You also had skills that synergized with one another so that the whole was a lot greater than the sum of their parts in Guild Wars, In Gw2…not that much.

And in GW1 it was also possible . . . not easy, but possible, to do most of the content without ever bringing another human player to the party. It also wound up making a class obsolete for one primary purpose (Monks with Healing Prayers vs Ritualists with Restoration Magic) and for a period one class was “godmode” (Perma Shadow Form Assassins).

The most amount of allied players you could get into one mission was technically 16 (assuming you could sync into Vizunah Square) but really 12 for some elite missions and 8 for everywhere else end-game. Therefore, guilds/alliances really were a more social thing than being able to field all that potential into one thing.

Kalavier.1097:

Zombiism.9375:

I guess since all he does is follow the PC around and get all the credit

Only, he doesn’t. Trust me, I’ve done personal story twice and he really doesn’t take credit at all.

Yes, he does, at one distinct point where “Fort Trinity” is named. And that is all.

Hmmm.

Given this seems more rooted in “I don’t like the B-iconics” more than complaining about the story or the player’s place in it, I find myself wondering what’s the point of trying to argue or even discuss things.

You know, I can’t help but shake the feeling if S2 had none of them until much later in the story and it was “player and whomever else he could party with” there’d be complaints about how it felt like it was “us vs the world” until NPCs entered the picture. (For personal reference, I had way too much of that sensation doing most of Prophecies quests. Not so much the missions, but the quests . . . )

I’d really rather the developers focus on giving us a coherent storyline which we can follow without needing to jump to immense speculation or try to figure out how disconnected parts join into a whole. I’d rather they work deeply on developing the characters they have rather than slice them out “just because”.

If I want an engrossing story where I can be impressed by the writing, I’ll crack open some Timothy Zahn. (Highly recommend my current re-read: “The Icarus Hunt”, for how to work a classic mystery and have it unfold in layers.) If I want a game where I feel like a hero and the center of attention, I still haven’t finished Morrowind. If I want to play a game with a good storyline with plenty of branching choices? I can dust off my PS2 and Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne.

Destai.9603:

Tamias.7059:

I saw this on the front page of reddit today. I don’t think it’s actually a real Henry Ford quote, but the spirit applies here.

Then log off and don’t offer anymore input. ArenaNet will take it from here.

Let’s inject a little realism into this conversation:

They’ll take it from here anyway, either in response to whatever is being raised on the forums or in spite of it. They’ve kind of shown that time and time again they do listen to the players here on the forums, Reddit, elsewhere they go to read . . . but they ultimately decide with what they internally think is the best decision they can go with.

We could all say exactly the same thing, but if it went directly counter to what the developers want out of their game then I don’t think we’d get our wishes. If it went less than directly counter, and was an incredible investment of time and/or resources? We’re still less likely to get it due to a cost/benefit analysis probably saying “this wouldn’t work”.

Anyway, I suppose it could be worse. We could have the Reds and the Blues as our NPC assistants.

Cruril Darksbane.2318:

His character sucks, and you can tell especially when the voice actor sounds bored out of his mind and feels like he is sat down holding the script in front of his face and reading it.

That’s not the impression I got. I mean, I’ve heard “just shove them into a sound booth and record them doing line reads” in early-age CD-Rom games. King’s Quest 5 comes to mind for some terrible reads . . . and in comparison, Traeherne sounds more “subdued”. Then again, I find most sylvari do unless we’re talking Nightmare-influenced or Scarlet.

See, those characters? You could almost see them chewing the scenery and asking for ketchup.

He isn’t very interesting and unless your Slyvari comes out of nowhere. Unlike the Destiny Edge he isn’t established in the slightest, even new players who never played GW1 are introduced to this party of heroes who once fought side by side it’s a simple concept that people understand. However, trahearne comes out of nowhere he isn’t mentioned in the slightest before you begin searching for a way to deal with Orr and his introduction is very intrusive.

I found that more an issue with the story pacing than the character himself. The story outside of the first bits (racial stuff in your home region) felt very half-baked. The last bit in Orr felt more coherent, but that middle part . . .

Making him the Marshal was perhaps the dumbest decision made on the developers part, when you meet him he is wreck and this barely changes in fact he never changes. He is extremely unsure of himself and constantly questioning himself to the point where he keeps asking your character to do everything for him and make all the decisions (you even do speeches for him).

That’s not the dumbest decision the devs made. The dumbest one is including asura as anything other than target practice.

And your interpretation of him, I just don’t quite agree with. I don’t feel like going into specifics (again) so I’ll just say we don’t see the same character out of that.

In short he is in the wrong place at the wrong time, he isn’t fit to be the marshal of the trinity and he shows no qualities of leadership, he isn’t confident in himself, he can’t communicate with anyone but your own character and the only reason he is comfortable with that is because you shared a dream.

Well . . . we do lack Vorlons to help us find the right person, in the right place, at the right time.

MastaNeenja.1537:

They could bring him back if they did it right but I don’t think Anet is up to the challenge he will probably be a minor character at best.

I don’t think “challenge” is the issue, as much as RL issues (getting the actor back to the studio for the LS2 material) . . . and knowing half the forum will catch fire if they do.

Demented Sheep.1642:

Where on earth dose this keep coming from? When dose he take credit for killing the dragon? He gets to be leader of the Pact which is probably because otherwise you’d be stuck with them since you can’t really have the Marshal kittening off to do other things and because you belong to one of the orders.

And the sad truth is, he doesn’t take credit for all that much anyway. There is exactly one indefensible gap in how things flow . . . and a simple edit to include an after-comment would fix it. The time you name Fort Trinity, then he claims it’s a name he thought of. Sure, all that is needed to fix it is to turn around after and say “they needed it to come from me, and not you, so they don’t question my authority – they need to trust in me, and in you, together.”

Ronin.7381:

ZidZabre.7256:

I think most of the hate towards Traeherne is coming of the Kormir hate.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. Even though the reasons for griping about Kormir were more of a joke (no player in their right mind should have expected to become the God of Knowledge – I mean come on). However, the experience was often comically cited as bad only because the player didn’t get much recognition for their deeds and Komir stole all the credit. Flash forward 250 years and Trae does the same thing in retrospect.

. . . sigh.

No. Traeherne doesn’t. Kormir didn’t either. You got an entire epilogue instance both times where our characters could chat up others and get credit. There are more than a few instances in GW2 where credit is not given to Traeherne, but to the player character.

The Kormir hate anymore seems founded entirely in a comedy animation which was thrown together. The Traeherne hate comes from people expecting to be the Nevarine all over again and not getting it.

Flash.6912:

Trahearne will defeat Mordremoth single handedly w/ his legendary sword Caldabolg.

Wonderful concept, except the sword is no more.