Guild Wars 2

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

This thread is starting to make me chuckle.

“Having to purchase it makes for better content”

As a GW1 vet, I have one word for you….. Factions.

A loooooot of players absolutely hated that campaign, which I never completely understood. However they would argue that just because they had to buy it didn’t make it worth what they paid.

I didn’t like the campaign, but “hate” is the wrong word for it. I didn’t like the factioned format too much as I was Kurzick and it seemed to kind of always have us on the losing side of the border. It was the last one I picked up, for completeness’ sake, and while I don’t regret it . . .

. . . I never really got attached to it. Nightfall, on the other hand . . . I really did enjoy just messing around in that one.

Kronus.6048:

and I can ask what’s the point of legendary weapon when I can just get an ascended one

Footstep effects.

Agreed, assuming there’s not a catch of limited-time stuff. I am actually trying to snap up as much work hours as I can along with several other RL-time commitments which keep me from playing all that often anymore. (Notably, trying to ensure I continue to have a place to eat, sleep, bathe occasionally between works shifts . . .)

Being able to log in once within the period and have access later when I have more time . . . whenever that may be . . . is valuable to me.

phys.7689:

gw1 reward system was better because the best way to get most things was to do the challenging content. Unless you were a trading hustler. The other option was to grind, which generally took longer to get the things you couldnt beat on your own.

I don’t know, there was the Zaishen RNG Chest, which could make you some money if you were lucky. Or doing certain dungeons for rare skins with good stats you could pawn off trading with little effort. Or, most possibly, getting a green minipet from a birthday box.

The dif is in GW2 the best way to get everything is to do the type of cheesy grinds they would always nerf in GW1. Doing any specific/challenging content is always the worst way to achieve any goal, that isnt hardwired to that content.

want ascended? buy inscriptions for 40 gold, earned in 8-4 hours of grind, other option? get to level 11+ in fractals, get a 1/100-1/20 chance for 40 min to 2 hours of play, you can only attempt it 1-4 times a day tops.

It may be just me but I had well over 40 gold by the time I hit 100% Map Completion (the only goal I’d realistically set myself when I started).

The game design basically screams at you to do the easiest content possible repeatedly to get anything. This would be like if the best way to beat an FF game was to stay in the level one dungeon forever.

Funny you should mention that, there were more than a few kitten which rewarded the behavior of grinding in the early areas. Mostly 2, 3, 5, 8, 9, and to a lesser degree 12. There’s seriously a trick you can access around 1/3 of the way into 12 where you can almost auto-level to 99 . . . almost.

And that’s without going further back to “Power Peninsula”. A glitch so amazing for jumping levels and grinding cash fast with a moderate amount of danger, assuming you had two black magic casters and access to Fire2.

IndigoSundown.5419:

juno.1840:

So while I can concretely point to the existing work of GW2 developers, nobody can point to what these same dev’s would produce under a content driven, B2P model.

Except we can. The GW2 Personal Story was part of the game’s B2P, and is constantly reviled.

So, apparently, is the story of the Nightfall campaign.

People still apparently really liked the rest of the content though . . .

It’s amazing people want to attribute things to Final Fantasy which weren’t part of it as the version I talked about. Final Fantasy on the NES. No number, no re-release, no extra content, and no Pearl Sword to break the game. (Just Xcalbur and Masmune..)

Also, Zelda’s progression . . . the first game . . . was almost entirely based on exploration. Sure, you could get better swords but you could also go quite a distance without ever bothering. (Or, if you were really feeling like a challenge, almost at all.) The vertical progression was minimal, natural, and not nearly as important as the more linear progression of “find tool to get past X obstacle”. I enjoyed it a lot, and enjoy Zelda games where that’s more of a thing than “get special object in dungeon, never use it again”.

Again, we do come to face what I consider one of the lacking things of an end-game focus – there’s not as much of “this is new and/or interesting” as there is this focus on whether it offers tangible rewards. I was asked what I considered rewarding, and went into what video games I remember the most . . . and softballed the answer.

Because of the games outside of MMOs I remember most, three come to mind for having a “rewarding” feeling when all is said and done. “Ys 3: Wanderers from Ys” on the SNES, “King’s Quest VI: Heir Today, Gone Tomorrow” on the PC, “X-Com: Terror From the Deep” on the PC.

The first one because it was an introduction to a series I have grown to love for the music and gameplay, the second because I beat it without a guide to tell me how to do things or a hintbook, and the third because it is balls-out the toughest game I can think of which I not only beat but outright destroyed.

bhcbose.9615:

I played these game you stated because I am also old enough. But lets not compare these games to MMO.

Why not? It’s all valid to me, because we’re discussing what I find rewarding. Not why I play MMOs, which is almost the same reason I occasionally whip out my copy of Settlers of Catan when friends are over and three drinks down for the night.

Because it is fun.

If you truly played real mmo before you would clearly understand why there is currently an issue in Gw2 regarding reward vs difficulty.

“Real MMO”. Were you not reading when I listed that I played EverQuest? Often credited as one of the forefathers of the modern MMO? Or would you like me to list off others? Ultima Online, perhaps? Should I go for total oldschool cred and list Meridian 59, where endgame was all PvP and guild fights?

I played through to Plane of Time in EQ1, and before that I did Plane of Hate raids semi-regularly, Sebilis camps, I had a blast at one point just farming the everloving crap out of Velketor’s Labyrinth.

In Ultima Online, I was a miner, carpenter, and blacksmith. I enjoyed that immensely – dressing up a little tower in the woods with various things and staying the heck away from people who could crush me due to having everything prepared for “utter ownage”.

Meridian 59, last and oldest of them, I would routinely fight in Brax and off on the Island because it was fun, and it usually resulted in the most interesting and tense experiences I could have – no safety for a long way, and not an easy way to escape being caught there.

And you want to know what? All three of these games had a risk vs reward system which was usually completely out of balance. Meridian 59 had very little cool rewards which weren’t from the RNG box (yes, one existed there too), Ultima Online had no unique rewards which you didn’t hide in six layers of boxes in the bank so people wouldn’t take them. EverQuest was the first time I ran into the “gear treadmill” in the full absurdity of always chasing better loot with better stats as a reward for yet another absurd raid, ending with /random 0 100 to see if you got the privilege. (Or if you were in a certain raid and your guild chose to award that way, DKP.)

I honestly don’t miss the reward system of those three games.

Most of the people that player Gw1 can say that there was an endgame in Gw1 that was not cash shop related.

Sure, but I’ll still contemplate and point out the “rewarding” aspect of GW1’s endgame dungeons/missions/content was usually purely cosmetic or another aspect of gold-grinding.

SkiTz.4590:

Whats wrong with having something to different to farm?

Because a lot of people seem to find it unsatisfying to just be given something to farm. It’s a dirty four-letter word, far as I can tell, which is strange as that was most if not all GW1 was after finishing off campaigns. Grind and farm.

Some of it was fun to do, and some had a challenging nature to it which kept it difficult to just “easy way”. (I mean, except the short time Perma-SF was doable.)

Farming content IS the endgame for most MMOs. As long as their is diversity in the content where I can go do x , y , z maps and feel rewarded

But that’s not usually what you get in MMOs. What you get is a couple “endgame areas” where people rush to so they can get the top tier gear or the shiniest of the shinies, while the rest of the game is populated by people trying to rush through it ASAP to get to “the fun stuff”.

Theres plenty of ways to add more unique rewards to the challenging content this game has to offer.

Agreed, there is plenty of ways to add rewards without needing to add new categories of things to be rewarded with (like mounts).

I see some superior runes in the TP that I would love to get my hands on but they have some outrageous prices (might runes, bloodlusts, etc), why not offer some of those runes as rewards in the challenging content?

Same reason there wasn’t Superior Runes of Vigor available cheap – a balance of supply and demand.

If anet just wants to keep rewarding scraps, then why not add stuff like bolts of damask to the loot tables? I want to work on getting my legendary but I can’t go farm a specific location for lodestones because it is terribly inefficient and a waste of time. Its better to just farm gold and buy em. Theres plenty of things you can add to loot tables to add at least something worth farming…. I’m not sayin to add these things into open world mobs for farming, but challenging things likes completeing a dung under x amount of time, capping a tower in wvw, winning multiple arena games in pvp, teq/wurm etc etc.

I do, strangely enough, get Lodestones and Cores from champion bags I get doing WvW combat. I don’t get great amounts of it but I do get some.

I’d also like to point out, just for the sake of pointing it out – gold farming to buy off the TP will almost always be the most time-efficient way of getting things which can be traded. At least until gold farming is made impossible to realistically do.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Really? I see Sentinels doing that work of containment and disruption, not human forces. I see human forces working to claim some areas to expand into, and loan Ebon Vanguard to attack some ogre targets just inside the southern Blazeridge Steppes. Targets which, I will note, are not acted on unless human strike teams also engage.

Again, please, keep going on about how humanity is of no use to anyone.

You have effectively confirmed my point and agreed with me. The East Ascalon regions is effectively a no-go area with no major settlements and no sense of stability than can be claimed by either race. The situation is very fluid and could go either way.

I’ve confirmed your point? I’m curious as to where you think that’s the case where you said there wasn’t anything humanity was doing and I pointed out they were hard at work . . . and winning.

As far Humanity gaining anything from their current situation? No they will not.

. . . by your interpretation of things, not by the reality.

Kryta has limited options and limited resources due to being block by the Centaur tribal clans to the north(with the Dredge behind them) and thus cutting off safe trade routes to the Norn.

Strangely enough, even without “safe” trade routes, there’s still enough trade going on to make it work.

And thanks to Arenanet taking Lion’s Arch from the Krytan Crown control Humanity’s access to the south and the sea is limited too.

I love it how you stick that bit of “out of game” in when discussing lore. It makes it impossible to argue seriously within the context of the game when just a little bit before you were trying to analyze maps and territories and in the next, “ANet made sure they couldn’t have Lion’s Arch”.

Regardless, the access to the south has actually been fairly restricted due to Viathan Lake in Kessex Hills. Luckily, Garrenhoff still has access to the sea. It even has a harbor.

To the east a land route is extremely dangerous with again major sources of danger among them the Centaurs, the Bandits and of course the Dragonbrand corruption – thus access is limited to the Asura Gates.

And back again to lore mechanics rather than “ANet put the Dragonbrand there to screw with humanity”.

Asura gates are also some of the best options they have for moving supplies, by the way. It allows anything quarried in Ebonhawke to be sent to Divinity’s Reach, and anything farmed in Queensdale to be sent back across.

Its can clearly be seen that the only way forward for Humanity is a safe trade route out into the world that it has complete and direct access and control. That access route passes through Lion’s Arch. It is the most direct access to Cantha and Elona to the south.

Again, this is only the way you have of seeing it. Oh, there’s two other problems: both those places are hostile and won’t be of any use to try to connect to. Cantha is in an isolationist period, Elona is mostly ruled by Palawa Joko and is in worse shape as far as good options go.

And a third issue . . . that deep sea dragon.

Thus for Tyrian Humanity to truly prosper beyond it current circumstance it MUST have full and effective control of its only safe window to the world outside of Tyria. That window has a name. And its name is: Lion’s Arch.

Actually, there’s another option but they haven’t fully considered using it. It’s called the Mists.

bhcbose.9615:

@Tobias

You have been given many definitions of rewarding. Then please feel free to give us your definition of rewarding since it seems like none of all the things written here satisfies you.

Errant was pretty accurate with his definition of reward vs difficulty.

I’m completely satisfied with my “reward” for content being the experience of doing it. I’m old enough that I used to play games with a “high score” tracker on them or a scoreboard you could put initials into. I never got onto them, as usually it was hard enough to get to the finish line.

But games like the first Super Mario Brothers, Legend of Zelda, Final Fantasy . . . there wasn’t any reward for them. There wasn’t even an Achievement list to check off. There was beating it. The first game I legitimately finished on my own with no help (guidebooks or other people pointing out solutions) was King’s Quest VI.

And that pretty much is why I play games: to play them. Shiny wonderful items? Achievements? That’s secondary to the experience. In MMOs, usually it’s more the experience with friends and other people which I find far more appealing than “get the shiny loot”.

. . . I am extraordinarily weird like that.

cranos.5913:

Yet we saw a lot larger updates, a lot sooner in GW1 where they used an expansion approach. Ignoring a problem is no solution.

I dispute “expansion approach” only because each campaign was a stand-alone game on its own. It’s somewhat like claiming Pokemon games are an expansion each time they release a new game in each generation.

Most notably, Gen3.

cranos.5913:

Wanderer.3248:

Nothing is a challenge in PVE. Not for longer than it takes someone to master it, blog it, and for everyone to put it on farm.

It is, if it’s fairly newly released. Of course if they sit on their kitten for 2 years releasing nothing new, it won’t be challenging anymore. Even if you know how to do it, you still gotta learn the fights.

Unless we’re talking world bosses, that’s more organisation then personal skill.

It takes all of a day for the hardcore players to figure out how to organize and turn around to beat new released content. With perhaps the only exception being Triple Trouble (Great Jungle Wurm) because of it being three different bosses at once.

And I’ve seen other games where the same day, there’s walkthroughs which are out for significant portions of full video games which got released that morning. I’ve worked a counter where someone bought the game before lunch then was back before dinner having beaten it.

About the only mystery left in MMOs PvE wise would be “How are we really supposed to kill Absolute Vitrue?”

Edit: Okay, one of them got solved :P

Errant.1942:

For me personally? Because you seem so hell-bent on me defining what rewarding would be, I’ll try to answer it.

For me, rewarding, challenging endgame content would be content that’s hard to complete in an unorganized/unskilled group, but fast/modestly hard in a skilled/organized group. Meaning that you need to learn the area to get proficient at it. Arah is something that comes close to this. It’s possible to do all the paths (bar p4) in <15minutes with an organized, skilled team, but it’s going to be hell to complete in an unskilled/unorganized team.

That’s telling me the “end game” you want, but not the rewarding which keeps getting bandied about. There’s a lot of talk about how “rewarding” it was, but . . .

A good comparison to this is DoA. It was very rewarding if you completed it fast enough (~30-35mins for the teams I usually ran with), and it was more rewarding than all other content in the game, barring high-end GvG tournaments. But then again, I spent a lot of time learning all the roles and the area in order to be able to clear the content so fast.

. . . but we’re talking about farming end-game content in the next bit here. Do you see where this goes wrong so fast? If it’s rewarding, it will get farmed. If it’s farmed, it’s not nearly interesting enough to keep doing. The funny thing is, I don’t think DoA had all that much “reward” going for it outside the challenging nature of it.

It had the Gemstones which you could trade for Coffers or Armbraces, sure. But the Coffers are those lovely RNG boxes everyone seems to hate and the Armbraces are basically currency all over again (highly valued in trade). These both seem like rewards which are more a means than an actual reward.

The problem right now is that most content is either not proportionally rewarding, since content that takes barely any skill will reward you very similarly to the challenging content. And the few rewards you can actually get are usually accountbound, meaning you can’t make a profit out of it. Add to that the way most rewards are time gated (although with the current design, that’s reasonable).

And we move on to “reward = profit”, where I find once more we slide into “grind it for gold”. Which most people wanting end-game content want to not be doing since that’s lame.

I know many people will scold me for wanting to be able to do endgame areas to make money by selling the stuff I earn, but I don’t see this as a bad thing. It’s how I enjoyed playing GW1, and besides the benefits it yields me, it also benefits people that don’t want to play challenging content, but do want some of the cosmetic rewards. It’s a win-win in my eyes.

I agree, but at the same time, then we get the same kind of farming we had in GW1 where you never had to set foot in any of these end game areas to walk around with the “exclusive” goods for beating them. Which, if I dare say, sapped a lot of meaning out of the rewards since anyone could plop down some hard-farmed Ecto/Plat and say “I’m buying myself a Tormented set”.

Sort of like how we have it now with people playing the Trading Post for gold or feeling like they need to drop cash for Gems-to-Gold to get things. We’re going in circles here right back to the same problem of “end game content”. Only this time, it’s so rewarding nobody would not be doing it. (Yes, I know it’s a double negative, so sue me.)

Tell me why people would run an elite area in a dead game if they didn’t actually like the area?

Should I? Let’s roll back the tape.

After a while I was so stupidly rich (for reasons other than farming DoA, although DoA provided the starting capital) that running DoA for cash wasn’t a motivator anymore.

Yes, I think I should. “Why would you run it if they didn’t like it?” Because it’s profitable against the other things you could be doing.

Look, I got nothing against adding some “end-game content” but we’re cruising for another debacle here. Such as when people complained there was nothing to do and we got Ascended and Fractals, two things which got both barrels to the gut for trying to fill what people were saying they wanted. Such as the one where they added champion bags and there was the Queensdale Train which was so terrible it had to end.

You want “rewarding” you had better be darn clear about what sort of reward you want out of it. And if it smells like “a better farm for gold”, then you should probably re-evaluate why you want it.

Players would go into the Karanas to kill leapords, because the leapords dropped pelts… they would sell the pets on the bazaar, or they would trade them with armorers…

Going to stop you . . . right . . . there. See, while this is possibly the case, my server (The Rathe)? None of this. Why? Oh . . . the armor which could be made by those hides was incredibly useless compared to what else could be worn by the classes. Reinforced Leather Tunic or Lockjaw Hide Vest . . . which could often just be gotten by people hanging out leveling in Oasis.

Crafting was a joke in EverQuest, as there wasn’t anything really useful you could make which wasn’t surpassed by something which could be dropped or purchased for a considerably easier time. Crafting was always a joke in EverQuest for sinking absurd amounts of money into for no return except for occasionally giving a fresh new character bettered than the crappy drops you’d get in starter zones.

The only ones which got a pass was Jewelcrafting and Fletching. Nobody bothered with Jewelcraft unless they had an Enchanter on tap for making magical jewelry, even still with that it was always a loss of value when sold. Nobody bothered with Fletching because archery was broken early on, and later it was just a waste when your archer could be standing in melee with two weapons.

I know all this because I, unfortunately for my sanity, crafted. I also played a ranger, a mage, and a cleric through various states of the game and witnessed what happened as the expansions piled on and there was revamping of content . . . stuff which used to be desired (Dwarven Ringmail Tunic) got replaced by much higher-tier stuff which was not level-limited and would get passed down. (Who would want the Green Silken Drape when you could go to the Temple of Solusek Ro and quest up something much nicer?)

in Gw2, crafted items lack value. In EverQuest..Norrath had a GDP ranked number 30 when compared to real world countries.

And in EvE Online some corporations/guilds have what is claimed to be absurd amounts of “value” in their ships and fleets. What’s your point with that?

If you aren’t willing to work, the rewards will not be as rewarding. When something is just handed to you, there is less appreciation.

We do agree on this part, but at the same time . . . what rewards are we really wanting in the game? Because apparently “the satisfaction of doing it” and “to look awesome” aren’t cutting it.

2/2

Nerelith.7360:

I agree that something similar would be awesome for gw2.

Another fun item was mechanical squirrels… Completely useless In combat. But it was a mini-pet you needed to:

1. Level up engineering high enough to craft it.
2. Mine for the needed materials.
3. Craft the tools to craft the tools to craft the tools to craft the parts, to craft the squirrel.

End result.. a mechanical squirrel that followed you around. A Mini pet you did not buy off the cash shop but that you could acquire, purely from playing the game.

I’d personally like mini-pets to be craftable through junk materials or something like that from what materials we have. I think I mentioned that during the horizontal progression CDI as a concept which I didn’t flesh out then.

Of course, we run into the other question: Is this sort of thing the reward those who want end-game challenges want? I don’t think it is, but I will let them speak for themselves on that score, if they choose.

Part of the problem with crafting in this game, and in many modern games is..( I know I will be flamed by a Lot of players for this..) That levelling to cap is TOO fast.

That’s not part of the problem with crafting in this game. Part of the problem of crafting in this game is how it’s uninspired for most of the crafting professions and nothing really fun to do with them beyond make weapons and armor. (Note, now with the Wardrobe it becomes easier to get good gear since Exotics are fine to craft with the stats you want and apply a skin on top.)

I know i Lost a Lot of you… for those still with me…

If I get from level 10 to 20 asap, and can get to level 20 with level 10 gear, then level 15 gear is a waste of time, and resources to craft.

if it takes me a MONTH to get from level 10 to 20…a few Interesting things happen.

1. There is suddenly a demand for level 15 gear.
2. There is subsequently a need to farm for gold… or.. to farm for materials that sell for gold… that can then be applied to either craft level 15 gear for either self use…. or for sale.
3. The Player economy for crafted gear suddenly has value pre-cap.

I do follow you on this, but I’ll also note it adds some other undesirable interesting things. Primarily in your point #2 – see, by forcing players to grind for more things as well as slowing the level gain, you’re risking sending the message it’s more important they spend time doing useless things rather than enjoying the game.

Related to this is your references to EverQuest, where leveling was definitely a chore and there was a small bit of accomplishment . . . but there was either never enough money for good gear at your level (due to them being very rare drops sold by players high enough to farm them constantly, also keeping people from farming them at the level they’re useful) . . . or gear was so freaking easy to get because trash drop equipment was better than anything at that level which could be earned. (Back in the early days, Minotaur Axes came to mind as highly desired weapons for low fighting characters . . . and they dropped from things which you had to be much higher to kill reasonably easily, were useless at that level, and were essentially dead weight.)

I keep mentioning EverQuest because yes, it was my first MMO…. but levelling up in EQ, was Glacial compared to WoW or Gw2.

To abuse a meme: “dat monthly fee!”

1/2

bhcbose.9615:

Thats because A R W E N (which is my IRL friend) can’t reply anymore on any forum threads.

I read that earlier, but still not an excuse – they didn’t answer it when I was asking the question and would just rephrase it over again. If they didn’t answer it then, I never really expected them to.

cranos.5913:

So much hate, more money would result in more resources to get bigger content updates. Sure, there’s no guarantee they won’t kitten it up and if they do you always have the choice not to buy the “DLC”.

However, in the several CDIs I followed there were a lot of “we don’t have the resources to do that” comments by devs about things you see regularly in expansions of other MMOs (or even at launch), so yeah I’m not against it.

The term “resources” might not refer to solely money, you realize? And throwing more money at a problem short on resources isn’t always the best solution.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

There are other contributions than projecting military force outside the borders of where you live. Not everything in the world boils down to the strength of a closed fist.

That level of contribution would be best be considered as a support role as best.

What a narrow view you have concerning this. Is strength through arms and conquest the only strength which matters?

But its more likely to not only a support role, but also a minor role. Such a role would do no favours for the human race in Tyria. The more powerful races would be grateful ….. but NOT respectful of Humanity. Some among the more powerful races would go so far to view Humanity with contempt. And we have seem evidence of this throughout Tyria in the events of the current game.

I foresee something different. Let me tell you…

I foresee that sort of future, where humanity does come out of things, stronger for having endured it.

Where-as the Asura and Charr are held in high regard in terms of their overall strength as nations the same is far from universal for Humanity.

. . . they are? I mean, charr are recognized as remarkably good at warfare, certainly. But asura? They’re known more for riding the dangerously bleeding edge of technology and seeing just what rules of the universe they can make cry today.

And so my view that Humanity in reality is seen as a little more than a joke and at best a charity case – holds, and holds firm. Humanity is effectively only allowed to contribute where extra coverage is needed in a non-priority mission/target. Leaving high-value tasks and rewards for themselves.

You’ve seen this? Because I’ve seen human members of the Pact just as active as others, and succeeding at missions perhaps more often than in other places. (Poor Keeper Jonez Deadrun will never succeed.)

Then there’s the undeniable note of a human being one of the last to deal with Scarlet Briar. Everyone else was injured, incapacitated, or otherwise occupied – except a human mesmer.

Talk to me some more about how humanity is a failure.

Proof of this is Ebonhawke and the Field of Ruin region. The area is a virtual wasteland of marginal value, and thus Humanity is allowed to keep their city to contain the threat from the Dragonbrand corruption. This is the reality of Humanity in Tyria at this point in time.

Really? I see Sentinels doing that work of containment and disruption, not human forces. I see human forces working to claim some areas to expand into, and loan Ebon Vanguard to attack some ogre targets just inside the southern Blazeridge Steppes. Targets which, I will note, are not acted on unless human strike teams also engage.

Again, please, keep going on about how humanity is of no use to anyone.

bhcbose.9615:

The question A R W E N asked was where is the high level rewarding end game content. And everything you stated is not rewarding.

Farming does not exist in this game.

No one is asking to be forced into one single instance like most MMO.

A R W E N simply wants something new that is hard and rewarding.

And said person has not even begun to suggest what “rewarding” means for them. This is not unique to that particular poster.

He is a dataminer.

What that means is he combs through the DAT files for anything changed and works on that data until he can find out what it is. This is a highly simplified explanation because I am not someone who can do things like that . . . well, no, not since the days when I was trying to learn Ansi-C.

cranos.5913:

Personally I’m hoping for a new lvl 80 dungeon that’s at least on the same difficulty level as a lvl 50 fractal and new fractal levels till 60… Yeah I know, I should keep dreaming. xD

I so could get behind this, it’d be like trying to fight the Mursaat in the Ice Floe area in Prophecies without infused armor!

(. . . tons of interrupt potential makes it almost viable.)

SkiTz.4590:

What I’m saying is why can’t there be rewarding content for difficulty. Teq box is not rewarding at all. Triple threat is a tough open world raid as well and whats the reward? o more greens and blues. Thats just terrible. Spin it however you want to. Its always boiled down to being rewarded nothing but scraps at w/e you do.

So, what do you want as rewards? Let’s start getting some specifics down, or you’re just wasting space like ARWEN is saying the same thing over and over.

You want cool new skins but cant cash out real money? cool, just farm gold mindlessly. You cant farm any specific content to get a specific skin (outside fractal weapon skins which is stupidly rare btw and dung spec armors)

I’m amused you think any new content which would offer specific skins unrestricted and able to be sold/traded wouldn’t be farmed for it. Or wouldn’t have something in there to prevent repeated easy turnovers.

yerok.5469:

lol why do people keep defending gw2 in this? I love this game too, but after 2 years of promises and content being predominantly temporary, while also being just a rehash of last years same content I’ve given up hope. I know a lot of you are still new and it seems like there is so much more but soon you will hit the same wall.

I moved to WvW as an entertainment rather than PvE. It’s mostly more challenging to play a ranger there, but I have fun. And it makes money too.

As for defending GW2 in this? I don’t really want to defend the lack of “end game”, I would love to have something to do. But everyone seems to just want to talk about “rewarding” or “worth their time” rather than what they really want.

LS isn’t working, does anyone honestly know what the hell is going on? besides a giant sylvari brought robots and ufo’s to kill everyone? I would assume one would need an actual story to create a living one.

There’s a story, there’s lore in it, they made an entire instanced area during the Marionette chapters where it could recap what was going on. I’m really sorry you think there wasn’t one but in this case you are . . . unfortunately . . . mistaken.

Note, however, I’m not saying the story was amazingly good. It just managed to be serviceable.

Boneheart.3561:

Errant.1942:

ARWEN never proposed anything like that…

ARWEN hasn’t proposed anything. This entire thread is bait.

It’s nice discussion, mostly. I mean, if you get past the people who think “having something of end-game difficulty” is going to automatically make the stuff they put in worth getting. That didn’t even work for War in Kryta, let alone Underworld and Domain of Anguish.

But you’re right, ARWEN just pretty much parrots the same question in different phrasings without stating what do they want . . .

Rym.1469:

The absolutely best written NPC stories in-game were the Charr’s “father” options (Shaman and Gladium) and, of course, Tybalt.

Hehe . . . Tybalt’s story best-written . . . heh.

The further I get from it and the more I get a chance to think on it, the less it interests me and the more it stands on the strength of the character and acting rather than on the story itself. I like Tybalt (though I like Forgal more) but his story isn’t all that good.

See, I found the story of Falcon Company far outweighed Tybalt in my memory. Not for the lost sister, but because it basically highlighted someone who had no good choices ahead of them and how it changed them. Also, Logan did not suck dolyak toes.

juno.1840:

My point is (and has always been) that selling content is good for the game.

I’m hesitant to agree, because while it has worked in the past and continues to work in the form of DLC additions to games . . . there’s an equal number of games where that content isn’t sold and the games largely do well. Niche, but they do well enough they still get future development.

They’re not (exactly) MMOs though. And a few of them were “Steam early access” but . . . they did work.

It’s not popular because a portion of the game community would rather spend money on pretty skins, RNG consumables, and other cosmetic fair rather than for quality content.

The first, perhaps . . . but it’d need to be really pretty. The second I give a pass on most times. The last, if we’re talking makeover kits and tonics? Not interested.

I would rather not have to spend money for more content in a small-scale way like we’re talking on this topic. It doesn’t attract me, and it’s too much of a departure from how ANet ran their last game for it to be something I’d be okay with.

Many posters in this thread have said there’s no evidence that selling content will actually result in better content. However there is evidence to the contrary. LS1 is not an “expansion worth of content”. If you feel that way then you are not being objective.

So there is evidence that not paying for content gets you LS1 quality fair. You’re playing it…

I dunno, I have been playing it. Terraria got the Pumpkin Moon, Solar Eclipse, and Frost Moon . . . not to mention ‘Hardmode’. Gnomoria gets constant work on it done to make it interesting and balanced. Minecraft gets fun stuff and many mods which are all offered for free.

Errant.1942:

So no, ARWEN isn’t asking for gear-gated raids that require tons of grind. He’s asking for a format like GW1, where you had rewarding, optional, challenging end-game areas that required teamwork to be cleared fast, with rewards that aren’t account/soulbound so people who don’t want to do the content shouldn’t be gated from the rewards.

But most of the rewards were skins, or ways to get skins, and the person I just replied to seemed to think that wasn’t enough.

So what is?

SkiTz.4590:

Thanks for proving my point. Everything is skins related.

No, your quoted comment was how it was all in the cash shop. All of it. I just sighed and listed what you could get without using the cash shop.

Though if you want to change your point, that’s okay with me. “Everything is skins related.” As opposed to chasing stats? I’m not remotely interested in playing another MMO where stat-inflated items are the end-game goal. I’m barely interested in playing games where that’s the case – I ran so fast from the Diablo series when I had to start playing the loot roulette, I left my saves behind. I don’t even particularly like how Terraria has begun that crap. Borderline on Monster Hunter, because at least the game is fun while its RNG craps on me.

But your point, “everything is skins related” is much more interesting to me to play with after I hit the maximum level than “everything is stats related”.

There is absolutely no diversity in loot. Whatever you keep mentioning, is just skins. Why oh why is that all anet can continue to come up with after 2 years? Lets add more and more skins to an already massive wardrobe.

Because that’s how they want their game to play? Not about the stat inflation people hate (anyone recall that announcement of Ascended and the year-long scream about how the vertical progression wasn’t desired?).

But if you want another reason, I understand ANet has a lot of artists on staff who don’t do much once things are released compared to the devs, who are sort of constantly at work. The stuff which gets added is probably someone’s tinkering around with ideas and making a mock-up which they think look cool.

Teq boxes? you serious?

Yes. Because they exist outside of the cash shop, while you claimed that’s where all the skins were.

End game is purely cosmetics (outside of ascended gear, which is fairly easy to achieve, just time gated) , but thats it. If thats what the majority of the players want, than so be it.

I fail to see what the problem is with the end game being purely cosmetic with a few occasional diversions like the festivals and living story. Mind you, that’s a lot of what went on in Guild Wars 1 – purely cosmetic loot after level 20.

Destai.9603:

Wrong. People want an expansion because they want the game expanded. That’s what that term means. That’s its definition in this context. I don’t want an expansion’s worth of content – that’s just dancing around the subject. You can’t just dismiss the fact people are actually willing to buy an expansion, people actually want to see more than 1 new zone.

That’s what the term means in the barest of definitions.

But we’re speaking of an MMO and players of MMOs who have very distinct expectations with what an “expansion” should hold. Less than that, it’s a failure of an expansion and a sign of the game dying.

There is a set of expectations which comes with the word “expansion” which is why ArenaNet only used it once in the games it released – for Eye of the North.

Nerelith.7360:

Boneheart.3561:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I think the correct question here is:

Where is the Underworld?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Underworld

Where is our epic boss battle with Dhuum, and our collectable end game armor?

Dhuum was sealed away two-hundred, fifty years ago. It took him more than one-thousand years to break his seal, and I don’t think there’s many creatures to die in the Underworld for him to collect power anymore.

I may be wrong, but I think what is meant is…

" Where is OUR Version of an Underworld Type dungeon?"

“Where is OUR version of a Dhuum type epic battle against a Dhuum type Epic Boss?”

“Where is OUR Version of the epic Loot that Dhuum dropped In Guild Wars?”

I take it to mean that, but Dhuum wasn’t nearly as epic as the work to get to him. I remember that way more often than the fight (spam Great Dwarf Weapon on my pet, watch him fall down).

SkiTz.4590:

everything they continue to add in terms of rewards is GEMSTORE ITEMS thats it.

Really? I mean, everything?

The few special exotics which are restricted to coming out of certain types of champion bags are gemstore items? I had no idea. Show me where they are in the gemstore, it’d save me some time.

The tokens for taking part in the WvW Season 2 are gemstore related? Please, sir, direct me to where I can pay for some of these on the gemstore, I’d love to complete my wardrobe.

The Tequatl-chest related goods? Super Adventure Box skins? Those are available from the gemstore? Wow . . .

There is no special loot hunt. Just farm gold as much as you can just buy it from TP. Run your daily dungeons NOT FOR THE LOOT, but for the daily 1g. thats terrible design and its been here for 2 years now.

Well, you could farm gold. Or you could go out there and actually do stuff for it. And I don’t really think the dungeon daily run is near as fun as dropping into WvW when it’s packed and active.

Anyway, whatever. Some people are still “waiting for end game content” and I’m still waiting for many of them to bother explaining why we should add it . . . aside for keeping the 1% of players who would go into doing it happy for a few months until they get bored.

You know, same as every other game and its end-game content.

Zietlogik.6208:

I am seeing alot of “top 3” type posts, cmon guys, put some deep thought into what that ONE thing you feel is the best from Season 1.

No.

But if you insist: Scarlet’s voice actor.

Top three in order:

- The Marionette fight. Entertaining, interesting, and rewarding to experience (not the end loot) when you could have a complete success. The biggest problem is, of course, not having a team who can win or wants to win.

- Flame and Frost. When all of it was complete, it was really quite interesting to look at. Shame it was stretched out on release and there was so much time spent on anticipation and speculation. It fell flat only because the first parts dragged on so long.

- Battle of Lion’s Arch. All technical snags and rebalancing mid-release aside, this was a really interesting and fun concept to see fleshed out. First the evacuation, then retaking the city. However, I find it hard to say I’d want more of these since if it continuously happened then it’d sort of wear thin on the lore premise if major things kept getting assaulted quite so often.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Your and your peers have shown that you lack the ability to isolate the facts independent of its placement in Lore. Its obvious that you cannot accept any substantial opposition to how events and outcomes come to be in GW2 Lore.

Oh, I can accept many possibilities. I mean, I could accept the idea of humanity being strong enough to enslave other races for their own benefit (See: Kourna). But, once again, you’re changing the argument away into something which is about “Us vs You” when that’s not really the case at all.

No, see, the case is simply “this is what the lore is as it is written”. Sure, it is possible Kryta might be strong enough to unite under a single banner all the remnants of humanity to take back all the places they once lived. But that’s not what the lore stands as.

Sure, it’s also possible Ebonhawke can leverage the peace treaty into an opportunity to build up military might in secret until it can lay siege to and utterly crush the Black Citadel. However, that’s also not what the lore stands as.

And that’s the issue I have with how your claims are shaped, aside from moving from “according to how the lore could have gone” into “but that’s not what the writers want” . . . an argument which basically starts inside the game world and then moves to inside the writer’s heads, where once more . . . there’s no room to counter-argue at all.

You are blind of reality that as things stand Humanity cannot make a meaningful contribution to Tyria beyond maintaining order in Kryta and the city of Ebonhawke. It is incapable of projecting force that can called a substantial amount of military might on its own.

There are other contributions than projecting military force outside the borders of where you live. Not everything in the world boils down to the strength of a closed fist.

CETheLucid.3964:

Pyre won’t suffer to deal with the Flame Legion, especially not some snot shaman who has the gall to call what he’s doing petty vengeance given what the Flame Legion has done and plans to do.

Honestly, it’s one of my favorite scenes.

“Let me go, I want no part in your petty vengeance”
“You forget…”
“You, are part of my ‘petty vengeance’”

/onelessflamelegionshaman

Steve Blum forever.

Just the way he delivers the lines as Pyre is amazing. And more amazing, he’s voicing Rytlock Brimstone, but he’s got a completely different voice and feel for him.

juno.1840:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

juno.1840:

Selling content is a step in that direction. If making good, new, quality content is not profitable then the game is doomed anyway.

I dunno, Minecraft has been “doomed” that way for ages now. Still going.

No Minecraft hasn’t been “doomed” — and the parallel is non-existent so it’s not even relevant.

Oh, you need to read the forums I do then. Same as these, any time there’s not a major update with toolkits for modders or cleaning up the memory usage (note, it sucks major skritt) . . . it’s doomed to fail and Mojang has no idea what they’re doing. They’re coasting on the backs of modders who are making the game playable. They got rich so they don’t care.

Really it’s like listening to these forums.

juno.1840:

Selling content is a step in that direction. If making good, new, quality content is not profitable then the game is doomed anyway.

I dunno, Minecraft has been “doomed” that way for ages now. Still going.

Omar Aschi Popp.7496:

Zaxares.5419:

You know what the scary part is? Considering that Evon Gnashblade owns the BLTC and earns possibly thousands of gold a day from his fees, PLUS the possibility that he might be a secret spy for the Ash Legion operating in Lion’s Arch… Nicholas might actually be on to something.

It’s what you get for trusting a Charr.
Only Charr I ever trusted was this guy called Pyre.

I didn’t trust him. I followed him but I didn’t trust him.

I think he’d understand the distinction.

Dusty Moon.4382:

Sceptre of Orr was taken by Glint – didn’t you remember at the end of Prophecies? Kralkatorrik may have it now.

Livia was last seen with it.

We didn’t see Glint’s (Glaust) progeny – we saw eggs but that was all in GW1. They may have been corrupted by Kralkatorrik (the Crystal Dragon) – we may see more since there is a gate in Fields of Ruin to the Crystal Desert.

See: Eye of the North, notably the Elite Mission to protect the nest from destroyers.

Azrael.4960:

For lore hunters, even a little bonus mission that all you got at the end was a token reward (as in a small thing not a token for exchange) but a tidbit into this story or that story. I mean, wouldn’t anyone want to know more about
- how the Sons of Svanir developed into a cult following Jora’s brother?
- what did Jora do after the events in EOTN?
- how did Scarlet convince the dredge and charr to form the molten alliance?

and the big one for me

- Just who is that colossus in Cliffside fractal?

I’ve got a couple too, come to think of it.

- What happened to Zinn and his golems?
- Where is the Scepter of Orr?
- Where are the other Firstborn Sylvari not met so far?
- What happened to Glint’s progeny?
- Can I make asura travel farther with a trebuchet than with a catapult?

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Miscommunication solved.

Don’t worry bout it, I didn’t mind.

Honestly the best way I’d suggest doing this is adding some “deleted scene” type things available through the Story Journal after LS2 finishes.

“The ordeal is over but whatever happened to Timmy after we saved him from the well? Purchase this Extra Episode to find out, and have a chance for exclusive weapon models only found in this Extra Episode.”

That’d be almost in the spirit of what the BMP was back in the day, optional stuff to go through if you wanted the weapon skins. I personally didn’t like a lot of them so I only did two of the missions because I wanted to see the story (Saul’s Story and Gwen’s Story).

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Tobias, correct me if I’m wrong, but if it’s possible to save your virtual pennies (gold) to purchase this (as long as it was a Permanent addition to the gem store) there really is no reason for a player who can’t pay real money to complain. If they want it, they can work hard to get it. There is no reason to make a clause like “if people don’t like the price yaddiyaddiyada” because of course they won’t. No one wants to buy things they don’t have to.

You’re wrong. This is the Internet, where people complain about “free” if it’s not something they want. They complain if something is sold which they want, because it should be free. (See: downloaded movies)

Every time someone seems to think there couldn’t possibly be complaints over an arrangement, I sigh and die a little inside. Because I know, unerringly and with experience, there is going to be some just because it can be done and there are some for which nothing is good enough a deal. Real life or Internet.

The longest fight I had in WvW was taking Stonemist. From what I recall, there were banners in the first five minutes, but after that it became “quick someone sneak into the circle to stall them out” and it turned into a three-way fight as the other server decided they wanted to play too.

It was hectic, and I swear my old computer’s video card was never the same afterwards. But it was glorious, pure entertainment, and I would really like to have it again.

Resurrecting lords is a fine substitute to getting someone to hold the capture circle until help arrives. I’d like it not to disappear entirely as a tactic, but perhaps there needs to be tweaks to it so it’s not “let’s chain-res every time he drops until they get bored”.

. . . because if you’re doing that in the first place, it should clue you in – they’re not going to be leaving til they take it or your zerg gets there to chase them out. In which case, they’ll still hang around for the bags.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Does it really matter if it’s a gem purchase with gold to gem?

To me, no. To others, perhaps. Please try to understand my posts, I’m not complaining about it or saying I’m holding these things. Only that there’s been complaints about it being unfair.

Xenon.4537:

So you wouldn’t pay a flat $50 for a package containing $50 worth of content? Instead you want to be able to pay for what you want with what you can afford? How is the plan for season 2 unacceptable under those terms? It will allow you access for free if you simply log in. If you don’t log in, you can pay for individual pieces of the content for very small fees (the price of a soda, really). If this is unacceptable, can you give an example of what you would find acceptable?

You’re not paying attention. I didn’t say I, myself was against it, merely there were complaints made about that system and how it’s unfair. I love that system, it would let me get access to something if, for instance, I have an issue like I did last year where my PC crapped itself and I was required to step back to an older one which could not run GW2 except on a clean boot.

I have no trouble, at all, with the system of the Story Journal other than it not having access to LS1 at this time.

Xenon.4537:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Dr Ritter.1327:

Lightsbane.9012:

No. it goes against their core philosophy. no player should have access to something that another player cannot have access to. although if you’re in the game, clearly someone paid to be there.

“goes against their core philosophy” They went against their core philosophy a long time ago adding ascended gear.

Explain this one, because what you could have said is “they’ve done it in the past with said Bonus Mission Pack”. Instead you had to bring up Ascended gear again. I’m going to have to deduct style points.

On topic? While I somewhat like the concept, I don’t really want it happening. There would be an uproar about it, as some people already don’t like the idea of the Story Journal and “pay 200 Gems for a chapter you missed”.

Would you be in favor of a full-sized expansion pack for $50 instead?

I’d be in favor of new content of any stripe, especially if it would expand on lore in a forward-thinking way as opposed to looking backwards at what already has been covered.

The price tag . . . would have to be negotiable, if only because while I have a small spot in my budget for that sort of purchase, I know a lot of people don’t.

Dr Ritter.1327:

Lightsbane.9012:

No. it goes against their core philosophy. no player should have access to something that another player cannot have access to. although if you’re in the game, clearly someone paid to be there.

“goes against their core philosophy” They went against their core philosophy a long time ago adding ascended gear.

Explain this one, because what you could have said is “they’ve done it in the past with said Bonus Mission Pack”. Instead you had to bring up Ascended gear again. I’m going to have to deduct style points.

On topic? While I somewhat like the concept, I don’t really want it happening. There would be an uproar about it, as some people already don’t like the idea of the Story Journal and “pay 200 Gems for a chapter you missed”.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I think the correct question here is:

Where is the Underworld?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Underworld

Where is our epic boss battle with Dhuum, and our collectable end game armor?

I’d rather it be Fissure of Woe with Menzies. You know, something new

Shiren.9532:

Rarely did GW1 make me feel like a faceless lackey (if ever). It’s strange to see someone mention the risk of Living Story characters become them, they are so prominent in the story they made my GW2 character feel like a faceless lackey all the time (it was their story, not mine, sometimes not even Lion’s Arch’s or the rest of Tyria’s), then later on slapped a band-aid on the situation by calling my characters a “leader” or letting me “figure out Scarlet’s plan”. Saying something or showing it and allowing the players to experience it, those are different things. I was told I was a leader of the Living Story, I experienced being a leader during the events of GW1 and the Personal Story.

I do feel differently. See, all during Prophecies, I felt like I was being pulled through events with no real choice other than push through and hope things improved. Then it was feeling like the Vizier was manipulating me. During Factions in the middle I was literally going “wasn’t there something we were supposed to be doing about Shiro? Anyone? Isn’t this sort of more important than dealing with this faction war bullcrap?” . . .

Nightfall left my character being a leader (not Kormir, whose leadership failed in the face of Plot Convenient Demons) but almost everything I chose to do seemed too late to matter. It was . . . kind of like trying to stop Scarlet, honestly, with how we were intended to stop Varesh. Everything worked out according to their plan by the time we got to killing “the villain”.

Eye of the North was the only . . . only time I felt like I was a hero, since my character was the only one who kept a level and patient head dealing with the norn and the asura. And was willing to let Pyre step up and be the only charr I’d willingly follow

narwhalsbend.7059:

I have to disagree. You were never the singular hero of any of GW1. You were never without your band of Ascalonian adventurers and the you were always talked to as a group. They were with you at the Temple of Tolerance (in addition to other White Mantle defenders), as well as in the Ring of Fire.

Sorry, minor aside – they were different companions each place.

There are only two sections of the GW2 story that I feel were well done:
First is the mentorship under the order representative. You actually get to spend enough time with an interesting character to form a bond. You both work and explore together for a common goal instead of the your Destiny Edge character forcing all their personal issues on you or Trahearne randomly showing up and dragging you off somewhere then leaving again. This section have the appeal of the “small team” feel. You never did anything alone, but you were a great contributor to the success and vital to the effort.

Or in the case of mentoring under Tybalt, I had to do most everything while he pretended he was an awesome field agent. I know he’s an engineer but I’m a ranger . . . we’re not supposed to have a spotlight to look awesome. That’s why they have guardians and warriors.

Second is the work up to the assault on Arah where you follow an Order’s plan. Instead of just following around Trahearne and killing what he says, you join in as an integral part of an operation currently in motion and contributing to the overall advancement to Arah rather than babysit angsty Destiny’s Edge or follow Trahearne around some more. While Trahearne is out giving orders and all that, you’re actually out in the field joining in with the other soldiers.

Something continually acknowledged by other soldiers in the trenches, yet strangely every player wants to claim Trahearne took all the credit. Weird.

One of the part of the story that I find most enjoyable isn’t even a mission. The explorable areas of Orr are wonderful because it really makes you feel like you’re contributing to the effort. You can wander around and find an encampment under siege and join in the Pact defenders, then have other players run in to help, then the NPC thank you and mention that they are going out to fortify/set up another camp and so you follow them. In general, what I like is that these give the feel of actually being a commander.

The feeling of these events was well done, but their scaling was . . . not. It’s practically impossible sometimes to push any events into success alone, and most of the time that’s how I was in Orr areas. Even more so since the rebalance done to Cursed Shores.

Trahearne is a fine general and can sit in Fort Trinity and plan all he wants, but the commander should be out in the field with the troops guiding them to success instead of watching Trahearne talk to various people and tree spirits.

It’s fair to say that’s exactly what’s going on? I mean, we’re in the field working while we occasionally remember cleansing Orr is important and make effort to push forward with Trahearne on that front. The Personal Story is about striking at Zhaitan and cleansing Orr at that point – the Open World is about the war effort as a whole.

In conclusion, I have to disagree and say that GW2 is way more “singular” of story than GW1 ever was. While GW1 was always a group following a natural progression of events, GW2 is nearly always “You must choose what plan should affect the entire race,” “You must follow Trahearne and do what he tells you do to,” or “You must come and try to fix my personal issues with my ex-friends.”

The first one of those never seemed to be what I read into those things – I was affecting a localized part of a race rather than the whole.

The second was understandable, as it was presented Trahearne had been studying longer than my character had been actively adventuring (assumedly) and had more of a clue on where to go even if it was a faint idea. Also, he usually asked for input at least before presenting me with his plan.

Third . . . these personal issues are easily fixed. Neuter Rytlock, and shove Zojja out somewhere over Southsun Cove with her limbs hog-tied behind her and no Mr. Sparkles.

dkspins.4670:

I also love the craft of cooking and finding new recipes to do. Yeah, I could look it up on various sites, but discovering is much more fun. This applies to the potions as well from Artificing.

So I wasn’t the only one? Awesome!

The other crafting types could use some (more) fun stuff to discover like that, rather than the routine recipe of “Weapon Part 1 + Weapon Part 2 + Inscription”. I know there’s certain special Exotics out there with unique skins but . . .

A R W E N.6895:

I have been saying for a while that Gw1 high level content is rewarding.

Hence you could conclude that something rewarding for me would be similar to the reward we could get in Gw1.

First of all, I could repeat that content as much as I wanted to get my rewards.

Secondly, the end chest reward was useful toward something (high end armor in terms of cosmetics)

And also you should note that the progression was almost strictly horizontal in gw1.

But in Gw2, is it vertical or horizontal? I don’t know. And is the content rewarding and useful toward something? Well not really.

Define rewarding.

Let me elaborate, since you’re not doing so. I found most of the “rewarding” nature in the games I play is not the cool awesome items or vertical progression. It’s having done it, usually with friends I could enjoy playing with because they liked poking fun at the ranger whose job was to avoid a total wipe by running away from the battle if it went south and popping a Res Scroll

It was the event, the journey. I prize the final victory we got over Dhuum because it was after about seven attempts which failed either on the Chaos Planes or at the Ice King. (Also because my pet with Great Dwarf Weapon pretty much made it trivial.) I enjoyed Vanquish runs because that was an hour and a half with friends basically just relaxing and maybe possibly having a drinking game involved.

I really prize when I got my brother into the game and the two of us blew through Nightfall in a month.

Obsidian Armor? Eternal Sword? Awesome minis? Don’t really care. I think Obby is ugly on almost all classes (and too understated on others), the Eternal Sword is useless when I main a ranger, and I hit my quota of minis just through alts and collecting their gifts each year.

Tormented weapons I really do want if only because they’re probably the easiest way to fill my Hall section, but I couldn’t get into farm groups, didn’t feel like pushing friends to do it, and that left the final option of “buy them” so I just decided it wasn’t worth my time/money.

And that’s where GW2’s “endgame loot” is too – it’s similarly not awesome enough to get me to want to drive myself to get it. Now . . . the titles on the other hand . . .