Guild Wars 2

Andred.1087:

Yeah, I think we can definitely expect the following things:

1. Plot of “young adult novel” quality
2. Things breaking on day one
3. Patch 2 weeks later addressing the release problems, and possibly some other stuff

The second two are probably true because this is how things have gone for most of ANet releases. Even things in GW1 had issues, though I would be hard pressed to name them, I think there were a good number of bug fixes in early patches to a campaign. (Note the date, and remember it released April 28, 2005.)

So, without rancor at how they do it, we should probably expect it as a given since it’s normal for them to patch about two weeks behind things. Of course, with GW2 we’ve had rather quick sets of patches in the first couple days so there’s that.

Personally, I don’t mind the Trahearne thing… it’s not like GW1 was any different. Rurik, Master Togo, Kormir… they were Trahearne way before it was cool.

I’ve been saying that for a while now, though I find people give them more slack. Probably because the story was always centered around those NPCs.

Aside: Don’t forget Evennia and Vizier Khilbron, either. Especially the Vizier with his special skills nobody can get. (Cough, Caladbolg, cough)

Or they overlooked it because the story in GW1’s campaigns was pretty much “young adult” level also. Bear in mind, they do have a target of “Teen” with their rating, and there are ample notes of “young adult” books which are actually better than they appear from the first read.

Aside: Even Harry Potter had nothing special about it aside from a promise of things progressing in later books. It wasn’t til the third book you got stirrings of a more detailed storyline going on.

Honestly, some of the books I really enjoyed in the “young adult” section I can look back and really tear into as being terrible. Trying to aim the story at “young adults” means you can’t go as complex as things like Wheel of Time . . . you really are limited in what your scope is. You might be able to get as good as Timothy Zahn, but even that’s kind of pushing it.

Bottom line? We’re never going to reach a “suitably good” level of writing, or what those with adult sensibilities are going to set the bar at. What we will get is going to be better than Twilight, maybe better than Goosebumps, and likely never as good as The Lord of the Rings.

It will not live up to the expectations, because most players set their expectations so high that unless the next Living Story incorporates Cantha and Elona, while killing three Elder Dragons and Trahearne . . .

It’s going to disappoint, and there will be rage posts about how horrible they are at writing and they fail at life and should quit development to live in a shack with Tycho and Gabe.

Sartharina.3542:

Freemen of Kryta.

I read that as “Fremen of Kryta” and was thinking they’d somehow ride/steer the Great Jungle Wurms into Queensdale.

Thobek.1730:

Shiren.9532:

Thobek.1730:

Also how about some high fantasy stories?!

That’s the MO of the Living Story writing: subversive writing that tackles social justice issues. The high fantasy, the epic adventures, those things come second to duplicating social justice stories in Tyria.

I agree with you, because that’s how it feels when I’m playing the game.

It hasn’t for me, and I still scratch my head when people bring that up. (It’s not all that often if I’m not on the forums.) No, what it’s felt like . . . at worst . . . is being Sansa watching all the interesting characters do their thing knowing I’m “safe”. At best it’s been like being Ser Jorah bring indispensable to the characters doing things but not really doing much to change them.

There’s been no agency for the player characters, aside from being “valued” but not having anything valuable to do on their own accord. Always with someone else. A few times it made sense, some others it was “okay, I can roll with it” and a few times it was “get the heck out of my way and let me work”.

I’d say that lack of agency leads to a lack of connection, and follows right into a lack of interest when players feel their parts aren’t important to the plot.

That’s a far bigger problem than the “social justice agenda” people keep wanting to saddle onto the LS so far.

This is why I turned to Minecraft for my MMO desires

VergilDeZaniah.3295:

Oh no, not Trahearne again -_-’

Now, now, he can’t die unless we bring him back in . . .

Frosch.7809:

But we are all nice to each other now and friends and such, and Jennah is a weak ruler.

I wouldn’t say that. I’d say she’s a ruler having significant issues getting what she wants done, to be done. She has opposition from the Ministry in the form of a small group who want power instead of her, she has people almost constantly under attack somewhere from either centaurs or ‘bandits’, and any move she makes to try to stabilize peace somewhere winds up blowing up in her face.

The human race right now doesn’t exactly need another front to start a war or even disagreements (with the Lionguard). They need less fronts to be fighting on, not more. Unfortunately, I think we’ll be seeing something off to the west stirring once there’s another proper expedition into the Brisban Wildlands.

Lord Kuru.3685:

I don’t think Anet is able to create boss mechanics that require player skill, so they go the easy way: boss mechanics that require organizational skill. All of the mentioned fights are basically just a matter of herding people into the right place. Perhaps GW2 should be renamed Sheep Herder Wars.

I think they can create boss mechanics which require player skill, they just shy away from it for open-world content or anywhere a group is required. I mean, they did have some decently challenging bosses in GW1, but there it was a lot more controlled since they knew they’d only have X players attacking at a given time.

Open-world, they could have anywhere from 1 player to 100 players hitting the same event. And with 100 players who actually know what they’re doing and are paying attention, just about any mechanic becomes overwhelmed.

. . . unless there’s mass OHKOs dished out when something scales up that high, which is a cheapening mechanic in itself . . .

Anyway, there’s not that many games I recall playing where boss mechanics didn’t fall into “recognize pattern/tell and then execute response” or “must do X in Y pattern to win”, or both in the same fight.

Oh, well, sorry there is the “random chance” bosses like the Demi-Fiend. Where you pray desperately the RNG doesn’t decide to just end the battle at any given time.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Vesuvius.9874:

therapite.3645:

The only way to know for sure is to set a trap. Attack the Queen and Logan will come running, as we have seen time and time again….

Scarlet attacked the queen and Logan was there… uh oh…!

But Faren tried to save the queen with his live. Faren = Logan 2.0 ?

Well he did run away . . .

Blue Magnolia.5207:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Blue Magnolia.5207:

Sarrs.4831:

Blue Magnolia.5207:

Boo I want man on man action too!

Haha but seriously – there needs to be that in games tv etc
Girl on girl action even with friends is very common already

Yup. Gimme some TrahearnexCanach anet. We want some fruit salad.

Personal story character and faren

Also Logan and bandit lieutenant – for years queen Jennah wondered why the Seraph hadn’t eradicated bandits from the outskirts of Divinity’s reach. One day coming back early from a royal meeting, she went into Logan’s room to surprise him. That’s where she found her answer.

I ship personal story character and Faren so hard. Faren is just so fabulous, I love him to much.

Here’s the thing about Faren. He’s obviously gay. The problem is that he comes from an extremely rich family and doesn’t want to risk a life of luxury and lordship by coming out. Thus he stays in the closet constantly trying to have people think he’s straight by asking about girls and stuff. However when he tells the personal story character to refer him to ladies it’s so that he can be their friend and get to know their brothers.

Except he seems to constantly hit on my female human noble mesmer, or at least try to get her positive attention . . .

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

This is my confusion even with GW2 – Krytan Lore. The current political status quo makes no sense at all. The Lionguard traditionally form the bulk of the military of the Krytan Crown. They protect the interest of the ruling Dynasty of Kryta – and that means Queen Jennah.

Except after the War in Kryta the Shining Blade were named special protectors to the Queen. This can be read here

Princess Salma: “We thank the Lionguard for their unwavering support of the people of Kryta. They shall continue, under the command of Firstwatch Sergio, in service to the city of Lion’s Arch.”
Princess Salma: “We thank the Shining Blade. They have been our truest companions and have proved themselves to be the true defenders of Kryta.”
Princess Salma: “Guided now by our loyal servant Livia, the Shining Blade will continue to serve Kryta, not as a rebel group nor as a militia, nor even as an army, but shall henceforth serve as the royal guard for all kings and queens of Kryta.”
Princess Salma: “Most of all, we thank the people of Kryta, who have endured so much with such great dignity. All across Tyria, free people sing the praises of the common Krytan, and I join them in their chorus.”
Princess Salma: “This conflict has been a difficult one, pitting brother against brother, and neighbor against neighbor. Not all who fought against us were motivated by evil, for some were deceived by the lies or cowed by the threats of the White Mantle.”
Princess Salma: “In the spirit of the new, reborn Kryta, it is time to put those dark days behind us. Now is the time for rebuilding, not retribution. Now is the time for forgiveness, not vengeance. Let us all face this new era together, without hate in our hearts.”
Princess Salma: “In that spirit, we hereby announce the formation of a new army for the defense of the whole of Kryta and for all humans who call Kryta their home.”
Princess Salma: “Honoring the winged goddess who protected us in our final battle against the fiends who had usurped our kingdom, this new group will be called the Seraph, and the valiant Bartholos shall be their commander.”
Princess Salma: “In this new army, common citizens and former members of the White Mantle and Shining Blade will serve side-by-side. You will know the Seraph by the wings that adorn their helms and shields, and by their resolute defense of our land. They shall be the protectors of Kryta.”

So, the lore was set in motion when the civil war ended and the White Mantle was broken.

And notably, the Shining Blade also doesn’t serve the Queen . . . they serve the throne. There is a distinction there which should not be lost.

Sartharina.3542:

There will always be more foes to conquer, and by the time they overcome the Ghosts, Branded, and Flame Legion, it’s possible their alliance with the humans of Ascalon is so complete (Along with quite a bit of cultural mingling, especially around the borders) that it would be as unthinkable to make war against Ebonhawke as it would be for the Iron Legion to make war against the Sentinels.

I expect it’d be a matter of finding some other way to channel the aggression and humanity either getting over the whole Ascalon matter (hah) or just deciding to pick it back up if the charr leave it for whatever reason.

Honestly, I don’t see the enemies listed there (Branded, Foefire ghosts, renegade charr) being particularly quick to be conquered. I’d say right about the time Dhuum is slain forever . . .

Kalavier.1097:

The charr received barely ANY writing in Proph, so nobody could really make out anything of their culture other then “They revere fire!” and “They hate humans.” We NEVER saw them talk, just charge and roar.

So again, how can we say the shamans or flame legion weren’t forcing them or in control? Because we have NO indicators of their culture at all.

That’s really the problem – they were cardboard stand-ins for orcs/goblins/whatever. They had very little real . . . well, anything to them until Eye of the North. Which, notably, certain people like to lump together with Guild Wars 2 and not Guild Wars Trilogy (Prophecies, Factions, and Nightfall).

So if you look at just the Trilogy at all? Not much there to work with as far as characterization goes.

Which, naturally, means it’s a crime to add any.

Obsidian.1328:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Obsidian.1328:

But overall? If any particular game just isn’t any good I’ll just shelve it or throw it in a box and move on. What’s the point in needing to hold companies “responsible” when it’s not really going to do more for my life than keep giving me a distraction from what duties I have?

If it doesn’t really matter to you, why are you here?

Why are you?

To shame ANet.

Well, good luck with that. Let’s see how that turns out for you.

To return somewhat belatedly to the topic. Again.

It’d be far more interesting to see the asura go after their homelands underground rather than humans returning to Ascalon. We’ve already been there, and there’s this problem of a rather strong grip by a race who pretty much have been fighting someone, somewhere, nonstop for as long as humanity. If not longer, depending on whether charr were native to Tyria.

Far more interesting to mount an expedition to go kill Primordius now. Especially if that can net the asura the Central Transfer Chamber and the associated network which once existed.

Obsidian.1328:

But overall? If any particular game just isn’t any good I’ll just shelve it or throw it in a box and move on. What’s the point in needing to hold companies “responsible” when it’s not really going to do more for my life than keep giving me a distraction from what duties I have?

If it doesn’t really matter to you, why are you here?

Why are you?

Obsidian.1328:

Perhaps I wasn’t being specific. I meant that, based on your arguments, you see little difference between legal and right. Why the 180 now?

That’s not a 180, you’re just not paying attention close enough. There is a definite distinction between “having the right” and “being right”. One is legal in its implications, the other is moral.

That kind of unfettered relativity is irresponsible. While a phrase like my “one man’s terrorist is another man’s patriot” is a solid point, it would be an injustice to simply leave it at that. Research all sides of the story and find out what is equal and unequal in that situation, and draw conclusions based off of that.

If you are admittedly trolling, your points don’t have to make sense and don’t deserve the attention to be researched. They’re contrary for the sake of being contrary, at best.

If you’re not admittedly trolling, it still doesn’t matter much. What a lot of your complaints do boil down to is “I don’t like the way they took the lore”. Again, that’s fine. What isn’t fine is to paint it as a crime or travesty unarguably.

Obsidian.1328:

You are part of the problem.

No, no, neighbor. There’s where you’re wrong. It’s the only sane, and mature, solution.

Not really. The Ascalon fiasco is merely a microcosm of what’s wrong with mmo development in the whole industry, that’s the reason I troll here. Anytime you’re making large-scale decisions/changes for a game with monetization being the overriding reason for doing so, you should step back and ask yourself if you’re doing the right thing. GW2 as a whole is a textbook exercise on how to take an existing niche game with a strong following and try and turn it into a cash cow. They exploited the old game to make bank, it’s starkly evident in almost every change made. Is that legal? Yes. Is it right? Hardly. This topic just happens to be one that is overly obvious about it when it comes to the lore.

And I have no personal objections to them doing that. Other games have done it successfully and at least interestingly (Magic: The Gathering notably, Dungeons and Dragons as well).

Again, if I don’t like it, I don’t let myself be a patron of their work. This is simple.

If you don’t choose to call them out on that, great. But don’t get so defensive when I say your apathy encourages the very thing which is destroying high-standard mmo’s out there from being developed.

I choose to have some perspective and realize this thing, this lack of “high standard MMO games”, isn’t going to affect my life. I have a job, I have a family, and I have friends. I have a game I like to play in my off time, which is one of about fifteen which are vying for a slice of free time, all of them moderately decent.

If one of them is no longer fun, entertaining, or is more of a chore? Yes, I got other choices to go play. I’m not paying $X a month to play this game, so why wouldn’t I be okay to just set it aside for a time if it’s not fun? I did it to the original when it became Grind Wars: Titles.

But overall? If any particular game just isn’t any good I’ll just shelve it or throw it in a box and move on. What’s the point in needing to hold companies “responsible” when it’s not really going to do more for my life than keep giving me a distraction from what duties I have?

Fiontar.4695:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Fiontar.4695:

A micro-budget, direct to video fantasy farce that thinks it’s the video game equivalent of Game of Thrones.

That’d be an awesome slam if they had said anything of the sort.

The following is from the Eurogamer interview a few months back, for proper context:

Johanson told me everything that will happen, and the four patches coming early this year – 21st January, 4th February, 18th February and 4th March – will bring about an end to excite even a bystander. Tyria really won’t be the same after it, and what happens at the end will also set up Season Two.

By its conclusion, Season One will have been developing for 15 months. What ArenaNet wanted to create was a complex plot that kept people theorising and speculating in the same way a show like A Game of Thrones (and the book series A Song of Fire and Ice beyond that) does – to have “people realise what the power of having a video game that can tell a story like a television show is”.

There are enraptured super-fans fervently guessing at what’s to come, mind you, and apparently one person in every 10,000-20,000 has guessed correctly. “And we haven’t told them this!” Johanson cackled. "Most of the rest of our fans are all saying, ’You’re crazy! There’s no way that’s what it is – that’s way too cool.’

“It’ll be really fun in three months when the ending happens for those people to be able to stand up and say, ‘I got it right! I nailed Game of Thrones!’”

But what if it doesn’t work? What if this grand story doesn’t have the affect on people that ArenaNet hopes – will it be time to reassess the formula?

ArenaNet has already. The next step, “and we’re heading down that path regardless”, is to keep a big story but colour it with smaller stories that begin and end every month, the hope being to keep less invested players interested. “That would be our next step before we say, ‘Hey, we really need to change things,’” said Johanson.

. . . nothing on there saying they’re as good as Game of Thrones, or an equivalent. Only that it’s what they hoped to do. It’s lacking a claim of success.

I think they know it didn’t live up to what they envisioned, and really need to do better. Much better.

Obsidian.1328:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I do see on some criteria it does not match. I also point out it doesn’t matter, because it’s the right of the property holder to do such. You can explain all you want, but until you can prove to me it’s illegal or wrong to do so, I won’t entertain it.

This is why I’m trolling you.

And at least you admitted it.

By hiding behind the copyright laws, all you are doing is approving of this type of thing. I don’t know why you can’t separate “legal” and “wrong” in your mind.

Because some things are “illegal” and are not “wrong” by my internal moral code. I won’t go into details, but it stands to reason there are thus things which are “legal” and are “wrong”. But they are, in fact, two separate things to consider. Lastly, most importantly of all, there is a very specific detail which you have failed to grasp spectacularly in your trolling:

Just because you don’t like something, doesn’t make it wrong, or if you like something doesn’t make it right.

I hope you follow me on that score. You don’t like what they did with the lore? Fine, that’s okay, but it’s not inherently “wrong” to do that sort of thing. It’s an artistic decision, which doesn’t have a “right or wrong” the same way, oh, an engineering decision does, or a mathematical equation can be true or false.

It’s not “wrong”. You just don’t approve.

But by doing so, you are in essence supporting and validating all those fail reduxes out there in the world.

Validating? Supporting? You’re really reaching for it if you’re trolling me. Frankly, I don’t care about most of those beyond going “meh, they remade it? Is it any good? I might see it then”. That’s usually as far as it goes, because it does me no amount of good to go full-on-crazy decrying something as trash to people who either won’t agree with me or already do. And to top it off, because I’d want to make an informed rebuttal of why they suck I’d need to play/watch them . . . and I don’t want to do that most times.

See, here’s the real thing people forget – I just don’t patronize their stuff anymore. I’ve left a ton of books sitting at two-thirds because the story took a weird turn and I decided it was not for me. (See: “The Tommyknockers” novel by Stephen King, but I did have to go back and finish it for a class so I could write a critique.)
I’ve left MMOs because I had a problem with their lore decisions, their system decisions, or because I got tired of them wringing time away from my life I couldn’t spare. (Ultima Online, EverQuest, Meridian 59, various others) If I don’t like doing stuff I just leave.

Why not turn activist on the forums? From prior experience, it’s the only metric some of them care about, and to be honest it’s the only course of action I feel is properly just.

If I don’t like “House of a 1000 Corpses”, I’m not going to buy a theater ticket, I’m not going to pay for it on pay-per-view, I’m not going to rent it, I’m not going to watch it when it comes on cable channels, and I sure as all heck am not going to download it illegally to watch it.

Does it make a difference? Well it does to me – I don’t have to sit through a movie I don’t want to.

You are part of the problem.

No, no, neighbor. There’s where you’re wrong. It’s the only sane, and mature, solution.

Kalavier.1097:

I don’t look at the personal story/living story as much as the world and characters and detail.

Which they’ve done an awesome job at IMO. Especially how a number of GW1 major spots are still around in some form, like Fort Koga or Piken Square.

Hmm, well to paraphrase A.B. – That’s another topic.

Obsidian.1328:

Tobi
Like I said, feel free to read any of my past posts over the last year and a half. I’m not going to spend 4 hours cut & pasting for something you can do with a few clicks of the mouse.

Cite or link. You have no credit with me on taking your statements at face value after the following:

It’s also completely understandable you refuse to see a problem in anything ANet puts out there. There are tons of fans who will blindly accept anything thrown their way simply because it’s “official” or “owned”.

It’s not about being a fan. It’s not about even liking the lore. (I have plenty of issues and could probably write a whole essay on what went wrong with the Personal Story. And a thesis paper on the Living Story if I cared enough).

It’s about “this is the way it is, and denying it is being willfully ignorant”.

If you think having an educated opinion about something doesn’t matter, then we are at an impasse. Calling something like “Blues Brothers 2000” anything thematically close to the original doesn’t only mean you are honoring the copyright owners wishes, it also means you’re an idiot.

Who said that? Because I assure you I did not. That movie was terrible, but it was totally within the rights of those who held the property to make it. Same with the repeated remakes of “The Parent Trap” over and over again like clockwork – that’s the right of the companies who hold the rights. I’m relatively sure such rights are enumerated in laws somewhere and if you want, I’ll start digging for them.

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to realize GW2 doesn’t follow along the same lines as GW1 in either form or function. The fact that I have to explain why that is to you is exhausting. How does anyone not see that?

I do see on some criteria it does not match. I also point out it doesn’t matter, because it’s the right of the property holder to do such. You can explain all you want, but until you can prove to me it’s illegal or wrong to do so, I won’t entertain it.

And yes, only the original author should be editing his own work.

I disagree. They should have an editor who has nothing personally/emotionally invested in the work so they can catch troubles instead of skipping over them. Editors are a necessity for writers, otherwise we get stuff which is dreadfully needing work. Sure, it is the final decision of the author . . . but I in no way think the author should be the only one to have input in how good a story is.

I mean, unless you want another Phantom Menace (someone really needed to sit on Lucas on that one).

Quite frankly I don’t give a dam how it is generally accepted in the industry; if someone tried to edit something I wrote simply because “they own the rights” to it, I’d be furious. However, anyone can add to it all they want. They just need to know that whatever they add doesn’t nullify what came before. Cuz that’s not adding, that’s editing. And GW2 has edited.

And your point about it being edited is? That’s the (legal) right of the property holder, not the people writing it. Be upset at it all you want, and pretend all you want the changes don’t matter. Just don’t try to enforce your as what it “should be”, because then you’re sounding extremely . . . entitled.

You do not own the lore, you do not write the lore. You have no say in what the lore actually is, or is not.

Yet GW2 does the same thing, being “inspired by” GW1, and you can’t bring yourself to question it?

I do. I mean, you want me to go back through post history but you won’t look at mine? Let me save you some time, though, and be courteous.

I’ve questioned the Living Story development, and determined at the end of their first “season” it was weak and needed severe tightening up for their next run at it. I’ve said the Personal Story really needed better consistency between “chapters”, so it seemed like one coherent story instead of eight different ones. I’ve said their inability to keep good characters relevant through the Personal Story but to keep introducing new ones hamstrung the development and meant they had to "cheat’ to get us to like them (Tybalt and Sieran notably were subject to such “cheats”).

I like the game, I can like the lore for the most part. I really am not too fond of the two Story threads they’ve put together, though they have good parts surface here and there.

Man up. Or don’t, it doesn’t matter to me really.

And what if happened to be female? How insulted should I be? Food for thought there.

Obsidian.1328:

Tobi

No, I replaced your opinion with reality. I can do that too!

I have explained my case, many times over. I can’t help it if you don’t bother looking it up.

Cite your sources, quote the relevant bits, but if you refuse to explain yourself other than to go “no, I don’t have to”, then why should I continue this any longer?

It’s completely understandable you refuse to accept what happened. I mean, there are tons of people who disavow the Matrix sequels, or any Highlander material past the first movie. There are some people who deny other things because they just don’t fit in their own world view.

Now, I can’t help it if your world view says only the original author can edit their work. Or add to it. And only if it doesn’t mess with your perception of their work, because otherwise it obviously wasn’t a “proper” extension of the fiction. If that’s the decision you’re going to hold to on this front then there isn’t anything to say.

Primarily because you aren’t arguing from an honest position.

If I’m not responding to the rest of your post, it’s because this particular issue has become central to our discussion back and forth. You will not accept anything as lore which does not fit with your personal interpretation of the Guild Wars world, which means anything after Nightfall is lumped in with the “Guild Wars 2” canon and everything before that is inviolate.

That’s not how writing works. It’s especially not how it works when you have a team of writers and not one person. If you like, let’s look at Star Trek and what Ira Stephen Behr, Brannon Braga, and Rick Berman did with it instead of Gene Roddenbery. There are plenty of people who say anything they did is not “the real Star Trek”. (We’re not discussing J.J. Abrams, because that’s just best approached as a separate fiction inspired by instead of in continuity with.) But it happened, in the same series no less, where other writers took what one author had done and played with it for their own work.

So, there’s precedent for what the ANet writing team has done. And it’s actually not a bad example – some of the better stuff came from people who just took Gene’s ideas and turned them on their side to get a different look. And . . . some of the worst stuff too, no argument there.

That’s just how things work when you work as a writing team rather than one writer. And even in the space of one writer, it’s known where they will present one set of truth and a book or three later, present a different one. Good old George R.R. Martin, and J.R.R. Tolkein both did this, as did other authors like Timothy Zahn, Tad Williams, Piers Anthony . . . I’m pretty sure even Jeff Grubb is guilty of it, but I’d need to find his books over again.

In fiction, nothing is inviolate to being changed in future works. The big question is what people do with what they change. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t . . . but when it doesn’t work and become good fiction, that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

Obsidian.1328:

GW2 isn’t Star Trek, and ANet isn’t Gene Roddenberry. Save the life lessons for another game.

Gene was terrible at teaching people how to be good people, remember how his vision of how humanity would become perfect included evolving beyond the need to grieve? Or how about the idea of any sort of economy disappearing, despite there being some things which simply couldn’t be just replicated via technology and still held meaning to people?

Not to mention the consistent flaunting (in a very hypocritical fashion) about how humanity is “beyond” just about any negative thing you can throw at them. At least, until Gene stopped being around to get in the way of the writers.

Generally, Star Trek is a terrible model of how people should behave.

Obsidian.1328:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

fiction changes at the whim of the writers and it is not subject to the change of future writers for whether or not it is “right”.

Fixed that for you.

No, you didn’t, you just replaced reality with your opinion of what should be. Instead of how things are.

Sorry, you’ll also need to pony up something to prove they intended it to be infallible. Which, mind you, is a lot harder than pointing to the myriad pieces which suggest they intended details to be very malleable until it was needed to be solid foundation.

I don’t have to, the burden of proof is with you, not me.

I’m afraid not. This isn’t a court of law. This is the internet, where unless you bother making your case at all you had better just shut up or go home. I made my case, and all you keep doing is “no, you”, so frankly . . . it’s on you.

The Durmand Priory researchers do often leave the one line hanging out there when idle. I suspect, though, you don’t know what I’m referencing so here we are. “History never lies. Historians, however . . .”

Someone already posted that quote last week.

And you either missed it or ignored it, so it’s time to bring it up again.

Who wrote most of the Guild Wars Manuscripts? A historian, Thadeus Lamount. And it even says at the front the following is taken from “manuscripts recently unearthed” which suggests . . . nay, states . . . they are not out-of-universe content but in-universe content.

Odd, the Manuscripts also explain to us the various classes and game mechanics, why is it talking about levels and character customization too? It’s also a manual dude. It’s a narration by the game designers with us RL players as the audience. They use Thadeus as an immersion tool to, you know, immerse us into the history of the gameworld. The manual also constantly refers to us as heroes and what to expect out the the game. So it’s not really Thad there telling us this, it’s some devs being pleasantly creative as they tell us about the game and how to play it. It’s awesome they also reference him in the actual game though, I admire that thoughtfulness.

That still does not mean his existence, or the attribution of the whole writing to him, should be ignored. It’s part of lore, you see, and not “Guild Wars 2 lore”. It’s part of Guild Wars 1 lore, much like map travel is also, for some weird reason.

That’s lore also.

SilverShadow.3021:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

SilverShadow.3021:

+1
Seems like Anet has replaced most of its story writers, because in GW1 story was quite good whereas in GW2’s Living Story it’s (imo) horrible.

They both had good moments but as a whole?

Eh, not really. All six versions of story (four for GW1 and two for GW2) were serviceable but not awesome. Riddled with cliches, predictable, and just strong enough to tie things together. Especially Prophecies and Factions.

Personally I liked the Nightfall storyline, it really sucked me in.
In my experience it is Nightfall > EotN & Factions > Prophecies.

Prophecies was a little bit lacking in my opinion but on par with GW2 main plot.
And for me the LS is at least10 times worse than the GW2 main plot.

That’s about how I rate it too, honestly. But I also count Beyond (War in Kryta, Winds of Change, Hearts of the North) as being just below Nightfall. It didn’t draw me in quite as well but it was fun and had more attention paid to it.

And yes, Prophecies is almost exactly how GW2’s personal storyline/Living Story was for me. “It has decent moments but lacks polish enough to stand out.”

Obsidian.1328:

Helpful advice:

Don’t ever, ever, ever confuse fictional literature with real life historical research. The two have nothing to do with each other. One exists purely as an artificial creation, and the other…you know…actually happened.

And in the same token, I should point out this goes along with something else: fiction changes at the whim of the writers and it is not subject to the review of the readers for whether or not it is “right”.

But, of course, simply saying this isn’t a valid perspective because it’s fiction sidesteps the point anyway. Again.

Claiming GW1 was written from some fallible human perspective in which the writer purposely intended the history to be taken as mythical hogwash is a tall order. Sorry, you’re going to need to ask the original author if he/she meant to do that.

Sorry, you’ll also need to pony up something to prove they intended it to be infallible. Which, mind you, is a lot harder than pointing to the myriad pieces which suggest they intended details to be very malleable until it was needed to be solid foundation.

The Durmand Priory researchers do often leave the one line hanging out there when idle. I suspect, though, you don’t know what I’m referencing so here we are. “History never lies. Historians, however . . .”

Who wrote most of the Guild Wars Manuscripts? A historian, Thadeus Lamount. And it even says at the front the following is taken from “manuscripts recently unearthed” which suggests . . . nay, states . . . they are not out-of-universe content but in-universe content.

Which means there is the required subjective interpretation of what really happened, as written by a character in the world of Tyria and not The Word Of The Author, unassailable and unbending to interpretation.

Thobek.1730:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Thobek.1730:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Fiontar.4695:

A micro-budget, direct to video fantasy farce that thinks it’s the video game equivalent of Game of Thrones.

That’d be an awesome slam if they had said anything of the sort.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/lwd/You-dare-compare-Scarlet-to-Game-of-Thrones

I think its this article people are talking about. Especially this quote:

“It’ll be really fun in three months when the ending happens for those people to be able to stand up and say, ‘I got it right! I nailed Game of Thrones!’”

Well it’s relatively easy to nail Game of Thrones. Pick any decent character, and go “they die”. Wait until it happens (it will).

It was also relatively easy to nail the Living Story. “Scarlet dies at the end.”

lol wot!? I have absolutely no idea why you posted that.

I was just linking the article because you said they never mentioned Game of Thrones, hence why I quoted you. I think you’re just replying for the sake of replying now.

No, that’s what you’re doing.

Also, do get it straight. I said they never compared it to Game of Thrones. Which, well, they didn’t. They said they wanted the same sort of feeling of someone figuring out where they were going with the story, as someone who figured out something on Game of Thrones.

Again, that isn’t all that hard. Take your favorite character from the show, add “- dies” and you have now successfully forecast Game of Thrones.

Thobek.1730:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Thobek.1730:

lordkrall.7241:

Thobek.1730:

I’m tired of waiting as well. My confidence in the Anet writing team has hit an all time low. Its all low fantasy stuff in a high fantasy setting which will always make a lackluster story in a game. I laugh when they compare their story to game of thrones, as if!

They have NEVER compared their story to Game of Thrones.

What they did was that they wanted people to DISCUSS and SPECULATE about what would happen next, as in Game of Thrones.

Nothing more, nothing less.

“It’ll be really fun in three months when the ending happens for those people to be able to stand up and say, ‘I got it right! I nailed Game of Thrones!’”

It’s like me creating a simple space invader game then saying “It’s be great in 3 months when people stand up and say – ‘I completed Star Wars’”

I’m comparing my simple game to a legendary movie.

Also what you would hypothetically say doesn’t make any sense unless that game was named “Star Wars”.

No it doesn’t. Why should the name make any difference? Its the fact that I am comparing my old arcade space invader game to Star Wars. Just how they compared GW2 to the Game of Thrones. The name of the game is not important, saying its up to the science fiction standards of Star Wars is the issue, or in the articles case, saying that “I nailed Games of Thrones” is the same as “I nailed GW2”.

That’s how comparisons work, its not an issue about the names being the same.

Sure it is an issue about names.

. . . because nobody is going to have a clue what the heck you’re talking about.

Thobek.1730:

lordkrall.7241:

Thobek.1730:

I’m tired of waiting as well. My confidence in the Anet writing team has hit an all time low. Its all low fantasy stuff in a high fantasy setting which will always make a lackluster story in a game. I laugh when they compare their story to game of thrones, as if!

They have NEVER compared their story to Game of Thrones.

What they did was that they wanted people to DISCUSS and SPECULATE about what would happen next, as in Game of Thrones.

Nothing more, nothing less.

“It’ll be really fun in three months when the ending happens for those people to be able to stand up and say, ‘I got it right! I nailed Game of Thrones!’”

It’s like me creating a simple space invader game then saying “It’s be great in 3 months when people stand up and say – ‘I completed Star Wars’”

I’m comparing my simple game to a legendary movie.

. . . well, more like comparing it to a substandard platformer on the NES which was really evil about how it worked.

Also what you would hypothetically say doesn’t make any sense unless that game was named “Star Wars”.

. . . gods and demons I hate analogies. Always full of holes and any time you try to plug them you just get more (and worse). Kind of like trying to plug plot holes in your story hurriedly instead of going “ignore that” then making them inconsequential later.

Thobek.1730:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Fiontar.4695:

A micro-budget, direct to video fantasy farce that thinks it’s the video game equivalent of Game of Thrones.

That’d be an awesome slam if they had said anything of the sort.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/lwd/You-dare-compare-Scarlet-to-Game-of-Thrones

I think its this article people are talking about. Especially this quote:

“It’ll be really fun in three months when the ending happens for those people to be able to stand up and say, ‘I got it right! I nailed Game of Thrones!’”

Well it’s relatively easy to nail Game of Thrones. Pick any decent character, and go “they die”. Wait until it happens (it will).

It was also relatively easy to nail the Living Story. “Scarlet dies at the end.”

Rainbow Sprint.3215:

You know I saw an episode of torchwood where that happened, it didn’t end that well.

It’s also something I’ve seen subverted to amusing extents when raised in other places. Or to note how useless it can be made in the same series.

bullyrook.2165:

As near as I can tell, the devs have glossed over the topic in terms of lore. And maybe that is for the best, at least for now. I know that stating any definite answers within the Human’s belief in the Six would cause an uproar in the player community if a side were conclusively taken.

It’s always best if it’s simply not done just because of the general outcry if it is talked about either way. Such outcry/uproars . . . and this whole topic coming up over and over . . . is why most writers tend to skirt the issue rather than plunge headlong forward.

Chrispy.5641:

Since you suggested it….How many Stories came out in the last year that have a crippled child that built and pilots a suit of powered armor so she can move around and protect herself?

I’m still remembering Castile when people bring that bit up.

Though there’s also Miles Naismith, less crippled and more . . . very short.

Also, Game of Thrones isn’t really that good. It relies almost entirely on politics and shock value than actually telling a story. Its the same reason why I think the Walking Dead is average at best. Shocking deaths as the only source of plot twists would be shocking, if they didn’t happen every other episode (or issue, or chapter).

I dunno about shock value being more what it relies on, as opposed to people being wildly outmaneuvered by others who are much better at the politics and backstabbing. That’s entertaining in its own right to the point I would love to see someone drop the “Survivor villains” into Westeros and take bets on how long they last.

As for Walking Dead, I just don’t have a frame of reference on this as I refuse to get into it. “Dude, you should totally watch it!” Considering I get similar replies when I tell people “you should at least try to finish a season of Lost” I am content to leave it be – Person of Interest has been better for me anyway. (Love Mr. Emerson’s work.)

But all said and done, we could go round and round on any particular “awesome”/“legendary” piece of fiction but there’s not one which is universally acclaimed to the point where nobody stands up and goes “I didn’t like it”. Trying to downplay how good something is with that opinion is almost dodging the point of the reference anyway.

The point is to have something which is as speculated on, as noteworthy, or at the least not held in derision by the most people. You know, like The Phantom Menace.

Vanthian.9267:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I believe if there is a “God” who is conscientious enough to leave a complete lack of proof He exists outside of blind faith which can’t be proven, then it’s equally possible He does not exist.

I am not the one claiming knowledge on something that is not even remotely possible to prove. You have the burden of proof not the ones you insult. Think before you speak.

If you make a claim, you are the one charged with backing it up. Not your audience (if you even have one).

I have not insulted you yet, neighbor. You will know it when I do.

Regardless, this is entirely off topic now. We do know there are Gods in Tyria. On the other hand, none of them have expressed sentiments implying homosexuality is unacceptable.

Fiontar.4695:

A micro-budget, direct to video fantasy farce that thinks it’s the video game equivalent of Game of Thrones.

That’d be an awesome slam if they had said anything of the sort.

Knighthonor.4061:

DakotaCoty.5721:

Knighthonor.4061:

DakotaCoty.5721:

I don’t know ANY MMO games that don’t use a form of leveling as a way of progression. Not one.

Many MMOs dont. the first MMOs didnt have character levels. it had other forms of progression.
Didnt need a number on your avatar to tell you your progression.

Yes they did.
Tibia: Skill and Level progression
TSW: Weapon progression and spell buildups
DCUO: Achievement progression to unlock more weapons
Aion: Leveling
Perfect World: Leveling

If an MMO doesn’t have some form of numerical progression, whether it be item refinery (Jade Dynasty), or character levels then it really isn’t filling up to that ‘MMO’ standard that we have today.

Leveling in guildwars is fairly easy:
- Crafting, now gives 12 levels instead of 10.
- Events
- Hearts
- Eye of the Mists is perfect for leveling, got my ranger from 20-26 in just 1 hour.

#TheMoreYouKnow.

Progression doesnt have to be character levels though.
Nowhere is it stated that a MMO needs to have Character levels in order for it to be a MMO. UO didnt have character levels yet was the first MMO.

UO wasn’t the first, Meridian 59 was. And it didn’t have levels either except for skills/spell progression. It was, however, tied to how much health you got which was earned by killing specific monsters repeatedly accumulating invisible experience. (All experience was invisible in that game, actually.)

Ultima Online didn’t have levels, but it was still stuck to some vertical progression due to how your statistics raised (Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence) which meant there was a definite power level going on.

I have trouble reaching for MMOs afterwards which didn’t specifically have “level” involved. I suspect EvE Online didn’t but substituted skill and ships for progression. Minecraft technically doesn’t have “levels” . . . but at the same time technically isn’t an MMO (despite having more active players than WoW, with access to online multiplayer).

lordkrall.7241:

Thobek.1730:

I’m tired of waiting as well. My confidence in the Anet writing team has hit an all time low. Its all low fantasy stuff in a high fantasy setting which will always make a lackluster story in a game. I laugh when they compare their story to game of thrones, as if!

They have NEVER compared their story to Game of Thrones.

What they did was that they wanted people to DISCUSS and SPECULATE about what would happen next, as in Game of Thrones.

Nothing more, nothing less.

The funny thing is, they did get that but it’s a smaller group who does it. Like the discussions about the books before the HBO series started.

I mean, that community was smaller and yet as intently focused as the lore discussions on things such as the “true nature” of the sylvari. It produced the following:(Don’t click this unless you read the books.) [spoiler] “R + L = J”? [/spoiler] Which is as viable a potential truth as “sylvari are originally dragon minions”. There’s potential evidence all around but there’s not enough to be definite.

KarateKid.5648:

Blasdrimal.2475:

Oh my… Kurodius, you deserve a spot in ArenaNet’s Living Story team.

Indeed, +1 kurodius. Granted, we’ve not seen the finale, but your ending would have been much more satisfying.

I really don’t like recommendations like this, not because people don’t deserve it, but because it probably wouldn’t make a huge difference in how things shake out.

It’s like having an editor for a writer, with the option to ignore their advice. Plenty of bad things can happen even with an editor looking over a story draft and going “yeah I dunno about this part right here…”. Or even worse “I don’t want to be the one to tell the four-time-running #1 bestseller author their story needs work, they obviously know what they’re doing”.

What I’d like more than people being shoved into (or attached) to the writing team is them taking extra time to sit down and look at their work and review it with an outside group who have no stake in things.

If nothing else. I want them to take an extra week before release and go check story for continuity of lore, consistency of tone, and player agency before going forward. And heck, while doing that the testers can make an extra pass at the patch for potential bugs/errors/oversights. Players will wait an extra week on a release schedule if the final product is better polished in both function and story.

Obsidian.1328:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

If you want to treat it as a game, then that’s fine. If you want to treat the story as its own entity, that’s fine. Please do not flip between the two because you want to “win”. It’s the equivalent of raising your hand in history class and going “but how do we know the people who wrote this stuff down didn’t lie or were just wrong?”. There may be a valid point, but it shifts the discussion entirely to a different line.

I just wanted to comment on this part real quick before I entertain the rest of your post.

Umm, finding out if the source is wrong or right is one of the most important functions of teaching history! Good grief, you can’t even start the discussion unless you make sure the source material is reliable! The entire premise of understanding history relies on getting as close to the contextual truth as possible. I don’t know how to respond to your comment really.

Except we run into an issue about the source – please remember, we only have human-based sources for a lot of the GW1 lore, and a lot of it is tagged as written by an actual character.

As such . . . it’s sometimes unreliable at best and propaganda at worst.

I’ll put it easier to grasp what I mean. The people who write the history books may not always be completely objective about their writing. And the longer back you go in history with fewer and fewer records available to rely on for data, there’s an increasing non-zero chance they will get it wrong even on accident.

. . . and trust me, in my lifetime I’ve seen history classes which have changed the interpretation of events even within the last two hundred years. Not to mention who you ask about the American Revolution, just to pick an easy target. Go back further and you watch history get a little murkier in so far not about facts such as whether wars or people existed . . . but for motivations and characterizations.

Facts are facts, but ancient history as we consider it is really just an interpretation of data we do not have personal context for. This is not entirely different for fiction, unless you have methods of looking into the past without fail . . . the best Tyrians have is the Mists. And they are notoriously unreliable a narrator.

The physical game, as pertaining to the lore, is an expression of the story. Not the other way around.

Yet, it should be noted, you’ve said things like the following:

Obsidian.1328:

They didn’t because they were slated to be a playable race in GW2, how do you not see that?

Which turns around and says the lore is driven by the game instead of the lore driving the game.

Pick a way we’re supposed to handle it and stick with it.

Kalavier.1097:

And Demmi would be such a more experienced leader of a nation then Jennah?

No, Caudecus. Or at least as he might sell it.

bullyrook.2165:

Not much better. All it would take is a Minister corrupt enough and a few good scholars to track down a different heir to the throne. It will be interesting to see who that is.

A gold on it being Demmi Bettlestone. And of course, good Minister Caudecus has never had an idea of the “true” lineage of his family. Why, if this is true than it means there may be a viable reason for Queen Jennah to step down for a more . . . fair, experienced hand at ruling.

Lastly.

When they write things so they can proceed forward with a concept by filling in a void of data, that form of retroactive continuity can’t realistically be said to be false. Why? Because there’s nothing to compare it to, as there was nothing there to begin with.

Shall we try an example?

A writer in one book sets it in the Kingdoms of the West, rarely talks about the Wondrous Kingdoms in the East. A few facts are peppered through here and there, recited with the utmost confidence in their veracity, about how the Eastern realm people behave.

In the next trilogy he explores them and talks about the Degraded Kingdoms of the West without actually really showing them. But we start getting facts, like before, which we know from having read the other book are completely at odds. Furthermore, some of those “facts” about the Eastern lands are shown to be myths held by people who either never visited, or are reasoning from outdated sources.

Is this bad, sloppy, inexcusable writing?

Obsidian.1328:

You need to learn to read between the lines and view the story not as a flowchart of variables, but rather a painting.

Normally, I’d agree. But to go from discussing lorewise how things might be possible and then come up against “oh it’s that way because the writers wanted it that way” . . . where do you go from there? There’s no way to actually argue against that, and it is by far one of the dirtier tricks of trying to debate game lore at all.

If you want to treat it as a game, then that’s fine. If you want to treat the story as its own entity, that’s fine. Please do not flip between the two because you want to “win”. It’s the equivalent of raising your hand in history class and going “but how do we know the people who wrote this stuff down didn’t lie or were just wrong?”. There may be a valid point, but it shifts the discussion entirely to a different line.

In other words, it’s not enough to simply take the story as a series of related events with concrete facts. You have to try and get inside the authors’ minds and figure out not just what you see, and not even only what they want you to see. But also what they are unwittingly giving away as pieces of their personality attach themselves to the story.

Mmm, I can see your point. However.

Trying to psychoanalyze the writers through their writing isn’t exactly fair, and I’ve actually run across authors who can write considerably heinous events . . . and it’s just not a personal matter to them. Some authors (Spider Robinson) are incredibly simple this way. Some others are not.

You’ve got to be careful trying to do this sort of thing you describe, because you are essentially trying to put together a puzzle from a box of pieces with no guide and there may be pieces of other puzzles mixed in there which fit together but don’t go together at all.

For instance, take Jeff Grubb.

I’d be interested in what you saw based on his other works, such as The Finder’s Stone Trilogy or Liberty’s Crusade. And how they fit into the thing you’re looking at in Guild Wars 2. Also I’d say there’s more of The Brothers’ War going on between Inquest and the rest of the asura. If my local libraries growing up had more of his work I’d be more familiar.

Instead I got Zelazny.

My point is, you can’t separate the author’s mind from the finished product.

No? You really should. While writers don’t write anything in a vacuum, it’s not always something personal to them. For instance, I’m relatively sure George R.R. Martin doesn’t have it in for blonde people but one could definitely construct a case he really thinks they’re not nice people at all. Let alone make a paper on what he thinks of women . . .

Saying that, I’m definitely sure there’s term papers being written (or been written) about either topic. But combing through all the stories he wrote, and analysis being turned on all of his “A Song of Ice and Fire” works . . . it’s too likely a conclusive view of his opinions on either matter would be made erroneously.

(Mostly because the people who are writing/ have written said papers are not Mr. Martin.)

And since there’s always little information on who exactly writes what parts, we have to try and gird what the author is trying to convey through what we experience. So no, I don’t see anything wrong with philosophizing on what the intentions of the story originally were, meta-gaming or not. It’s actually one of the best ways to try and get at the truth of a thing.

But you also can’t saddle any particular author with any single thing if you don’t know who did what or who contributed what. You can guess but unless they say outright “X was my work”, there’s no guarantee of getting that right. And even if so, trying to extend this for getting into their heads seems . . . like a ton of effort to arrive at a conclusion which is less likely to be correct than it is to be true.

Regardless of all this? Back to why I started in on this in the first place:

If someone responds to a topic with some even half-reasoned explanations about, for instance, why the norn do or don’t do X and a counter-argument is “because the game devs did it that way” . . . what’s the point in analyzing the lore at all if it can be basically swept aside?

Sergoros.4398:

ProtoGunner.4953:

What a ridiculous topic. Don’t have people real problems? Concerns about a game’s protagonists making fun of a dead evil character?

I assume you will die or jump from a sky scraper if you play GTA or Bayonetta…

Not just protagonist. Protagonist, whose character we supposedly was able to influence/create in this game. Imagine you playing Fable. All your choices are as dark as possible. U r evil to the core. And then, all your choices become “save the princes” “save a child” “give your money to poor” and etc. I mean….wtf? And same in the game. My Sylvari is Noble. But his answers on the level of the Rat. It. Does. Not. Fit. Do you understand it?

I don’t understand it at all.

Fable really does do that to you, at least the second game. The third game, so I hear, was worse about it.

Obsidian.1328:

Tobi
I don’t know what “meta-game arguments” means. That word “meta” gets used like so much common slang everywhere, I’m not sure it’s so interchangeable here.

Meta-game arguments are when you aren’t talking about the lore for why things are there but real-world or mechanical concerns. I mean, it’s all fine and good because they are potentially real reasons. Except . . .

We’ve determined for meta-game purposes that there will most likely never be a reclamation campaign against the charr. As soon as you step into that level of discussion, there’s nothing you can say which can support the idea it would/should happen.

So, more to the point, when people keep going “oh they only wrote that so the charr could be playable”, that’s a “meta-game argument” since it relies not on lore but on mechanics and outside influences. Especially since it also ignores two points:

- There is not many sources of lore which was ever available during Guild Wars 1 due to not having charr sources available. The invading forces did not see any reason to really sit down with someone and discuss matters, and since it’s been pretty well “established” EOTN was written solely to transition to GW2’s lore then it could be drawn Pyre’s little revolution was written so the charr could be something other than orc stand-ins. All we know is from the (unreliable) human narratives and writings.

- There was never much unofficial lore talked about from the writers about the charr, until EOTN. So we don’t even have any proof there was a massive shift since it’s rather impossible to shift something which didn’t exist in the first place.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

lakdav.3694:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Jennah is said to be the last Krytan royal heir, so I doubt that Anise is her sister. There’d be no reason to hide this information unless Anise is an illegitimate heir.

Wasnt there a maybe other? The OoW guy says so in the Human PS at some point.

He insinuates that there is (“She’s the last of the royal line!” “Perhaps not the last…”), but knowing the Order of Whispers that could easily mean some commoner descended from some long forgotten younger brother a hundred years back, or just an oblique statement to make the Order seem to know more than it does. It doesn’t seem enough to support a theory that Anise is Jennah’s sister.

Actually it insinuates to me they do know more (this is the Order of Whispers after all) and they could produce someone much like Salma was found so long ago.

Kalavier.1097:

Zaxares.5419:

That’s a very good last point, Tobias. Charr society is still very much a militaristic-oriented one. They are peaceful with other races insofar as they have a common enemy to fight (the Dragons). If/when the Dragons are defeated, and the ghosts/Flame Legion dealt with, the other races of Tyria might need to be wary of who the Charr decide their next enemy is.

Of course, this could be several generations later, and by then Charr society has matured by then to be more cosmopolitan and less expansionist. (You can already see it happening to Charr who leave Ascalon to settle elsewhere.) Future Charr generations may move away from their warlike origins and spread out into more sedentary, peaceful occupations.

I don’t get where people form the idea of if there were no dragons the Charr would suddenly invade everybody else.

I didn’t invoke dragons, I meant any enemy they could keep unified against. It’s not a given, but their culture right now prizes and glorifies fighting over other tasks. I honestly don’t think they could adapt well (as it stands right now) to not having any exterior threats to unify against.

Treebeard The Swift.9620:

All I can say is that you guys sure love arguing on the forums. You do actually play right?

I had to reinstall it and do something for the six hours while it patched. I must admit it contributed to the sour mood. And just when I had a day off, and nowhere I needed to be. Le sigh.

At least I’m not missing LS content.

CETheLucid.3964:

Tuomir.1830:

Murder is also known as homicide, the act of killing a human deliberately. Feel free to knock down a few asura, it’s not murder by the book!

Try Troll again.

But he’s got the right idea. I say we line up asura and give them bowls of tasty seasonings so they can follow in the footsteps of the greatest mind in the recent generations, Snaff, and help us defeat the dragons.

Vanthian.9267:

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

Same sexes stuff exists because of our genetics and biology of animals, not because a god said it is to be or not to be so.

Anet did it right and stayed true to real world in that a religion makes it so whether something is allowed or not and laws being written to reflect the will of a religion.

Extremely bold. What proof, pray tell, do you have that no God made it this way in real life? What proof do you have that a God didn’t make it this way in real life? Is it not a possibility that God made all of Biology?

Do you have proof that it was done so by “God”, or are you just trying to fog the issue? Because, my friend, if you’re going to make that claim seriously . . . you need to have some extraordinary evidence up your sleeve.

Claiming things to be true in real life on knowledge that you have no possible way to ascertain… I am just surprised no one has called you out on this logical failing sooner.

That is what you believe sir, not what you know nor is it a “truth” of the world.

I believe if there is a “God” who is conscientious enough to leave a complete lack of proof He exists outside of blind faith which can’t be proven, then it’s equally possible He does not exist.

DarksunG.9537:

Having a character that acts way more wacky than anyone else in the game with silly modern dialogue “later tater” & have more intelligence, influence, skills, power & lore bending than any character in the whole universe for no explainable reason is “out of place”.

How about having quotes directly out of modern fiction show up on many NPCs/Henchmen/Heroes in GW1? And there’s Kilroy Stonekin, who we had to take seriously at least once. There’s the whole-person copy of Milton from Office Space put into an asura. There’s G.O.X who quotes GIR from Invader Zim.

But . . .“later tater” is where you draw the line?

This isn’t even going into how Palawa Joko was pretty much the most powerful thing in Elona and when we deal with him it’s a second-rate hack who seems to be trying badly to regain his glory days. Even Mad King Thorn stomped him down . . . Then suddenly he’s powerful enough to take Elona?

. . . and you’re upset about Scarlet.

I haven’t seen any retcons which were incredibly damaging to the lore which wouldn’t be expected from even the best of sequels. (i.e. Lord of the Rings retconned The Hobbit something awful.)

Something awful? lol no, the changes he made were minor by comparison. Having the entirety of the human history be “well they just lied” is pretty dumb.

And having the entire book turned into “Bilbo telling tall tales to satisfy his ego and he hid the presence of the One Ring due to its subconscious grip on him” was really bad. Seriously, that’s not minor, that’s making everything in that book not substantiated later in LOTR questionable.

“But anyway, this character pretty much shows up as an author’s wish fulfillment to just be evil. Alternatively, in fanfiction, it might show up because the author favors the villain and wants a vicarious relationship with them. It might be a consequence of Evil Is Cool, taken to the logical extreme. Or, perhaps, the author just has a distaste for some (or all) of the protagonists and created the character to facilitate a Hate Fic, Fix Fic, or Revenge Fic. "
blahblahblah.. the point there is a kind of wish fulfillment with characters like that.

Given she died, was proven insane, and there’s nobody running around going “but she was so cool she needed to not be killed” in lore? Yeah, I think “Villain Sue” is overstating it.

In December I might have let it slide. When even Taimi pretty much goes “no, she had to go” when saying how much she envied her insight and designs? She’s not there anymore.

I love how I say something list all the reasons why I think it’s true then you say “prove it” it’s a great way to ignore people. I’m saying it’s more logical to see all the things I listed as being part of a single vision than 100% arbitrary “just happen to be similar” occurrences.

I love how you won’t prove it, you just continue to keep restating it’s something which is obvious or is already known, and when I called you on it you started deflecting it to accuse me instead.

It’s a real simple thing when debating, or even arguing properly. If you make a claim then you must cite your sources. Refusing to do so just makes it look like a personal axe to grind rather than an honest argument.

So you’re saying that because you can’t choose what to do at any given moment he’s a bad character? How does that make sense? I can understand if you said he has no motivation, or that he’s 2D or something… but what the player can do?

Don’t put words in my mouth.

I’ll be more clear though. Because he maneuvered us into fulfilling the prophecies, and it was clear he had his own agenda and wasn’t forthcoming about it, that’s a warning sign. It could be I’ve just seen the plot where an evil adviser has his own agenda not in step with his liege’s . . . it could be his design evoked Jafar way too much . . . it could be how he tells you what he needs you to do but never why or even what it accomplishes?

Sadly, I’ve been party to too many betrayals as part of that whole “treacherous adviser” package in games to immediately trust people. (I still don’t wholly trust Countess Anise.)