Guild Wars 2

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tamias.7059:

I always assumed that the claims that they ate humans to begin with was propaganda – the charr leader telling the tale of Stormcaller to the cubs on the Perimeter Loop of the Black Citadel claims exactly the same thing about the humans, which

1. Tells us that charr are repulsed by the idea of humans eating charr (and so, presumably, are repulsed by the idea of charr eating humans), and
2. Reminds us that claims of cannibalism (or whatever you’d call it, since humans and charr aren’t the same species) should be taken with a grain of salt.

Not unlikely. But do keep in mind that as I said, you can find a Flame Legion cook book on how to cook humans. And then there’s:

“I spied some Charr a few days ago dragging a sack into their cooking tent. A wriggling, talking sack. What do you make of that?”
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Vael

A charr-loving human might say it’s obvious lies from a pathological liar like Vael.

I say it’s more evidence you can’t trust him if he wouldn’t even try to go for a mercy kill on the thing in the sack.

Gene Archer.8560:

It’s happening, it has happened. The item, with a distinct bonus, is right in front of you, and yet this isn’t them showing plans or intents?

…Really? I’m sorry, but really?

The precedent is right here, right now. The precedent is being set. It only takes it happening once for it to continue in the future.

I posted about this a lot in the other thread which I won’t reference or dredge my posts back up but I’ll point out two separate and relevant issues:

First – Sprockets being available is an issue as a precedent, but there is perhaps a line they set internally knowing sprockets are available in large quantities when the Queen’s Pavilion is open. Something they have alluded to being possible in the future so the Gauntlet is active again. If there are other unlimited gathering items which allow for bonus gains, I would expect they be tempered in just that way. Furthermore, they have allowed it to produce an item which is still available right now, still can be made available to people widely right now in their home instance.

Secondly – Everyone seems to assume this precedent will be chased to incredible, hyperbolic representations. “First they introduce something which generates an extra item, next it starts generating valuable materials, and finally next year we get a pick producing Ectoplasm or straight up gold coins!” It’s telling how many people immediately reach for the concept ArenaNet is going to screw over the players, hard, and there is no other possibility than it coming to pass. It’s almost offensive to consider how this interesting idea is being regarded as “the end of decency” or similar representations of extreme hyperbole.

The funny thing is, as I stated in the other topic ankitten ot afraid to keep stating: those who worry ArenaNet has strayed from the path of the righteous? Pay to win already existed back in GW1 with the Skill Unlock Packs. Trying to say this is the “first step” doesn’t hold water for me if you’re going to say any advantage through real cash is “pay to win”.

RedSpectrum.1975:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Chrispy.5641:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Chrispy.5641:

Anet got the ‘massively’ part right atleast in MMORPG, since Deborah is the most common name in Kryta, and roughly 33% of all humans had their parents murdered by the White Mantle…. (/sarcasm)

White Mantle was 200 years ago. My parents were killed by Centaurs.

The White Mantle were 200 years ago, but they are also still right now, and are still very much around, but since Guild Wars 2 is not human focused, we may never actually see them outside the personal story.

and my 33% comment came from this if you really failed that badly to get the sarcasm in my comment::
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ashes_of_the_Past

I don’t think you understood the part where I said my parents were killed by Centaurs. If you meet me in TC, I’d be more than willing to tell you my RP story at the Dead End bar. My asuran wife could even introduce you to some of her friends back home in Rata Sum.

I’m actually rather curious as to how ,RP-wise, you managed to marry an Asura, being honest.

I’m rather curious why anyone would want to mare an asura.

By the way? I do roleplay. There’s evidence of it all over the place in my posts ANet cannot stop me from doing it. There’s also the character background for “Tobias Trueflight” which I spent the intervening time between WiK and GW2 working on. There’s reasons vaguely racist remarks about asura and charr wind up in my posts other than me personally not liking Zojja’s personality.

Frankly, the lack of roleplay is not entirely the fault of ArenaNet.

It is, however, dependent on environment (that is, server player environment) encouraging it, and not actively discouraging it.

The Lost Witch.7601:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I say this because there may be things they don’t want to discuss because of upcoming content, spoilers for things in progress, or generally “we don’t want to give this idea out to our competition”.

Or, alternatively “we don’t have people who can work on/with that topic right now”.

Yeah, I’m allright with certain topics taking priority according to arenanets capabilities at that time. I am just afraid that with the CDI’s active, and so little response to other sections of the forum, that leaving all the choices of topics up to arenanet is not a very healthy solution.

I would rather have us pick 10 topics and them choosing the order, than them picking 10 topics and us choosing the order. Ideally though, I would like to have a mix of topics picked by the playerbase and those picked by arenanet. That way we are likely to have tough topics picked by the playerbase, but alternated with ‘easier’ topics for the devs to respond in. The hard CDI’s wouldn’t always feel equally worthwhile for lack of dev interaction, but they would at the very least make sure that our problems are heard.

Better idea about a list which will be worked through but the order of it is picked by vote. Really, I now just want the CDI to work across the board even for the ones I’m not paying attention to.

BrunoBRS.5178:

pfft… next you’ll be telling me communists don’t eat babies.

They do. Veal, you know . . .

The Lost Witch.7601:

We may need to discuss things that Arenanet doesn’t feel that they can focus on realistically.

Some parts of the forum are not getting any dev attention. A CDI topic like dungeons, may for example not be something that is on the Arenanet agenda. While it is unlikely that the dungeon topic would have an immediate impact on plans already in motion, they could draw extra attention to this matter and put it on the Arenanet agenda.

I say this because there may be things they don’t want to discuss because of upcoming content, spoilers for things in progress, or generally “we don’t want to give this idea out to our competition”.

Or, alternatively “we don’t have people who can work on/with that topic right now”.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Er . . . I never did ask what meat they were using in that stew of theirs. Hmmm. Excuse me, I need to have a talk with some Ash Legion.

Modern charr – sans possibly Flame Legion – don’t eat sentient beings anymore.

If you believe that, I have some prime farmland to sell you. Of course, there may possibly be a minor issue with centaurs . . .

Atlas.9704:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Atlas.9704:

I’ll just blame whatever servers my own is fighting at the moment.
It is your fault, both of you. :P

“You had one job. You were supposed to make sure only Mist War recruits come in through the portals in Lion’s Arch. Now we got these trolling idiots squatting in a tower building god knows what with the supply . . . is . . . is that an airship?! Who knows this Aetherblade guild, is it some other server’s troll guild? Who the heck is this Scarlet person they say is the guild leader? A sylvari engineer? At least she’s not a ranger.”

Scarlet stands on the deck of her Airship and addressed her crew.
“Follow me! You will earn riches, power!”
No one cheers, her eyes turn into slits of anger.
“I said FOLLOW ME or I WILL kill you!”
Once again not a soul responds.
Exasperated, she turns on her Commander Blue Dorito.
Now the masses cheer, bow, and follow her into anything.

“Aetherblade zerg outside SE Stonemist, 30-50. Rams down.”
“What? There’s like 50 of them outside Red Keep water gate.”
“Hey, green BL needs help, Aetherblades everywhere.”

Steel Fenrir.2791:

What are these portal gates anyway? Reminds me of Doom 3, where they were testing the newly developed teleportation technology, only to discover that Hell was the inbetween place between portals. There’s a conversation between an asura and a sylvari in Lion’s Arch, with the sylvari saying she is aware she’s “disconnected with the others” for a split second while entering the gate. So maybe there’s an inbetween world between portal gates. What if there’s another reality underneath the reality we are seeing in game?

The asura gates were a known technology from Guild Wars 1, shown as their version of fast-travel allowing rather large amounts of material to be moved from place to place. However, the destroyers took over their transit hub and after that any active gate became dangerous to leave open.

Currently it seems the asura have developed the technology further to work in places not linked to the previous network or bound by the . . . same limitations.

Thobek.1730:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Also, it’s now a well known fact Captain Evon Gnashblade stole thousands of silk and other materials from the Black Lion Trading Post. It was long suspected he just flipped it to fund his campaign but now it’s clear he was giving it to Scarlet. Never trust a merchant or banker, especially a charr.

This is not a well known fact. Actually its the first time I’ve heard anyone mention it.

Source please…

The Lion’s Arch chat channel. If enough people say it, it must be true, especially on the internet!

Also, your sarcasm detector is broken, I’d see a mechanic

1 – No, please do not limit by word count or post count further than the forum does. Sometimes people do have a lot to say on a topic and I know for sure I don’t want to have to “soundbite” something into a TL;DR summary to keep things manageable. Some other method may be useful, such as fragmenting off topics which go astray off the main topic yet have a lot of players discussing it into a separate “CDI Discussion”.

Of course, doing that we might never make progress on the core one, such as the talk of Horizontal Progression going completely sidetracked to “housing options” or “subclasses”.

2 – Compromise. ANet tells us what topics they feel they can focus on realistically, and we vote by posting in the thread which one we want first. This way you don’t have the players dragging you to talk about something you aren’t ready to or otherwise cannot discuss.

MrPersons.1560:

BrunoBRS.5178:

a whopping two times as far as the main story goes, with one or two other cases.

yeeeeaaaah… i can’t side with you. even if your post wasn’t homophobic.

I don’t mean in only this game either, I mean in games in general.

I’d almost agree with you, if they didn’t keep “popping up” in real life too. I mean, really now, who gave them permission to intrude on my world with their lifestyle choices?

Yes, that’s sarcasm.

So long as the characters aren’t solely designed as “that homosexual guy/girl”? I don’t care.

pswendel.8179:

Now the issue here, once again, is the precedent. Next year it will be a new pick with 100% chance at finding rare drops. Not very creative and ultimately an alienated player base is created.

Sorry, Volkon, I suspect you will never see the issue of a snowball effect here and how marketing relations are easily crumbled in the face of consumers.

Sorry, your hyperbolic extrapolation of the matter makes it a little laughable to take the argument seriously. I’m sure you understand why the italicized portion really needs to be rephrased.

The issue brought up is the precedent. However, it should be noted there was a decent idea here which is not terribly unbalancing.

But what should be more of interest is not the precedent itself. It’s how people on one side of this are looking at the precedent and immediately deciding ArenaNet cannot be trusted to know where the line is between “pay for a minor advantage” and “pay for an exclusive advantage”.

More alarming than the precedent is the observation of how the people posting here are dead certain the people making this game have either no idea of what they’re doing, or don’t care.

Atlas.9704:

I’ll just blame whatever servers my own is fighting at the moment.
It is your fault, both of you. :P

“You had one job. You were supposed to make sure only Mist War recruits come in through the portals in Lion’s Arch. Now we got these trolling idiots squatting in a tower building god knows what with the supply . . . is . . . is that an airship?! Who knows this Aetherblade guild, is it some other server’s troll guild? Who the heck is this Scarlet person they say is the guild leader? A sylvari engineer? At least she’s not a ranger.”

Raine.1394:

Edit: Btw, an MMO is not a tabletop game or a writer’s forum. And, while testing is an important phase that’s shorted here, it is the actual design that gets the short shrift in a two week schedule. It’s not a writer’s issue. It’s a software development issue.

I agree, there’s a lot of problems there which is probably why the software side of this has been . . . simple, in the middle phase of all this. The “combat moshpit” I referenced.

But some tabletop groups I was in? And some I’ve watched streaming records of? It’s been adlibbed improv-style theater. A group of gamers who see a plot hook and approach it from the side where the GM hasn’t got anything in mind. Or even better: “Nope. We’re not going on that quest, let’s do something else not so crazy lethal.” Or better yet . . . some character who had plot threads in the upcoming game winds up eating a death early on and the GM has a ton of notes they now have to reshuffle.

Leading to the desperate need for “I need a five minute break” where the GM frantically tries to come up with something. Anything.

Of course, the solution is one ANet chose to deal with – “instead of gaming every other week, can we make it once a month for a while?”

Raine.1394:

The problem arises from the fact that they haven’t been successful, to date, with actually telling a story. That’s why we are here talking about it.

It makes me sad I missed that CDI about it, but then I’ve said most of my piece elsewhere. They succeeded at telling a story, in a pretty bad way. I’ve seen worse (ARGs or anything related to a certain thin well-dressed male are notoriously bad about this).

What they really got wrong were a few things in particular:

- It wasn’t a steady progression of the story. Early on the chapters didn’t seem related and later on, tone and content varied quite a bit. Add in Scarlet’s flamboyance and need for theatrical appearances/behavior and that single character overshadowed stuff already having been worked on. Most of the story wasn’t released in the game but on other avenues, notably short stories on the website.

- The single linchpin character was not established well. Scarlet could have been an interesting character if we’d known even a little about her from the start other than “someone manipulated the dredge and Flame Legion into joining up”. If we’d had it telegraphed there was an experiment gone awry in an Inquest facility (shocker, that happens every thirty minutes in some places ) and there were progressive hints of things happening which we only saw ripples of . . . instead of just happening? People would have reacted better to Scarlet. Also, it really needed to be clear she didn’t flat out graduate or learn everything from all the places she visited – she just stayed until she got bored or thought she had learned everything “important”.

- The design of each release was generally repetitive. The gameplay of most of the releases remained similar in the middle period. In the first few chapters each had a distinct feel. Flame and Frost had definite character to achievements and events, Secret at Southsun did too. Cutthroat Politics was amazing for feel even if it barely was related to Scarlet. Then . . . combat moshpit central. Though it seems like they’re getting away from it again now.

- There was no sense of impact of events. After the threat was resolved each time, it seemed not to matter. Things continued the same as they were before the threat showed up with almost no changes. It never felt like the events were really leaving any mark on the world or people.

CureForLiving.5360:

webtoehobbit.4201:

Tell me Eluveitie, how does a God in Tyria die?

Well the Charr seem to have this little theory that the gods aren’t really very godly, they’re just very powerful beings.

Having an ancestor who was present when a god was destroyed? And when another one got imprisoned . . . again . . . I think there was a notable difference between the two events.

Also, if possible, can we clean house of the rest of the Six? I feel the need for a God of War style “kill all the gods” romp.

Raine.1394:

On this front there is a simple solution. The actual problem is Anet’s conception of telling a story. Their model, to date, has been episodic TV. That is, with each episode, everything resets (starts over), and we are left with an adventure which is gone when it’s over.

It’s not a complete reset a la Looney Tunes, there’s continuity. I’d say it’s similar to Castle or (the current cast incarnation of) CSI right now. It’s not like a strictly serial story which every episode is another progression of the story with no wasted filler.

Honestly, i keep going to the Lost comparison because it feels the same. The writers assure us there is a plot and an end in mind, while we don’t have all the picture until way late. At least it’s not Twin Peaks.

What if, instead, they released the equivalent of an expansion, but did it over time? Change to the living world and story would be permanent. There would actually be change, evolution, and expansion to the world. I believe this is where they went wrong, i.e., in terms of how to tell a story.

I get the feeling they were “taking it easy” with this year and trying to get into the swing of things. And they discovered they need to adjust the aim a little on how they do it. I knew that was the game of it after the first two chapters finished – they were clearly trying to get an idea of how internally to work with it. So we get the filler (Dragon Bash, SAB), the secondary plotline (Southsun), and the main plot (Scarlet) for the season.

Their failure, so to speak, largely relates to how the players got the story. If they learn any three lessons from this – I want that to be one of them. Let the players have means of keeping track of the story and make it much more accessible to them rather than buried under hints and teases.

That and, of course, their two week DLC value proposition. I never really got that one even when a was a one month DLC value proposition. You can’t even think about a story, let alone tell it, under those release cycles.

Bull. Yes you can I’ve seen it before. I had two months in which to write a novella story during my college writing courses, during which I had to submit a rough draft with notable progress every Tuesday and Thursday as well as read other students’ drafts as passed out so we could give feedback.

I know a forum where there was one writer who devoted themselves to doing flash fiction daily. By noon PST there was a story up, less than 200 words. Every day for a year.

I, in fact, had that as a New Year Resolution – a story a week for a year. Didn’t have to be connected but at least 500 words every week.

And this isn’t without even stating the obvious: Tabletop gamers who have a regular meeting schedule do it all the darn time.

You can tell a story, and it can be a compelling one. But it is not a simple undertaking and the quality isn’t guaranteed to be there for every input.

Heck, I’m currently thinking of doing a writing project where I use a deck of cards, shuffle it, and take the top card at the start of the week and at the end have a story themed for the card I pull. Then the card is set aside, and next week I pull the next card.

It’s the testing which bogs down the time between releases. And honestly, I’d trade less fancy content for more story.

cesmode.4257:

So if/when scarlet’s minions go away and sprockets can ONLY be obtained through one method: these watchwork picks via the gemstore…thats where the problem lies. theres no alternative to acquiring these goods without dropping RL cash.

Or, you know, completing the still active meta achievement for this living story? Seriously. It can get done by next Tuesday if it goes away then, and if it stays another two weeks it will be incredibly simple to get.

Plus if/when Queen’s Pavilion comes back . . .

Or you can just purchase them off the TP and I almost am sure the sprockets won’t get near the price of some tier 6 materials.

Granted, sprockets are worthless. Its the principle of the matter that Vol is concerned with and I agree with him on that.

It’s concerning this wasn’t mentioned. It’ll be less concerning if they come right out and say “sprockets will always be available sometime during the year somehow”.

Manuhell.2759:

laokoko.7403:

Manuhell.2759:

The precedent was already set with the old digital deluxe edition/digital deluxe edition with heroic edition items. Around six months ago.
People should have complained earlier. They didn’t.

I’m pretty sure people complaint about that among with many other things. There are just far more complaint on the watchwork pick.

That’s the matter – very few people complained, as there were few people involved. And the other people called them self-entitled.
This is just a repetition on a bigger scale, as there are more people involved. But they aren’t setting a precedent – it was already there. People just ignored it.

No, the matter is anytime . . . anytime . . . something is added or changed there’s a group who try to paint it as the most terrible thing ever. If it happens to be a gemstore addition which has no impact other than existing? “They’re out to take our money for junk.” If it happens to be useful? “Pay to win!”

It’s really tiring to see the same thing come up again and again with the hardliners ignoring GW1 having a store (with an arguably P2W component, much worse than anything currently in the GW2 store) and basically sensationalizing with hyperbole to try to make their point.

If the game is about cosmetics being “the win” then GW1 was P2W long before GW2 was announced. So nothing’s new here. If P2W is about people being able to skip loads of getting things you can get through work and effort? GW1 did it long before GW2 was announced. Again, nothing new here.

The biggest difference between the two? GW2 players can convert gold to Gems as opposed to being required to reach for plastic cards.

So if we could drop the argument of “pay to win” and focus instead on the added effect of the pick? That’d be great. Because it is indeed, just a little bit of BS to have it when earlier picks did not have anything.

Buttercup.5871:

Exactly. Some seem to assume Anet will stop at sprockets. What about azurite orbs for the molten pick. Is that still OK? I’ll give you the answer: no. And I say this owning a molten pick myself.

Speaking as someone who missed out on Azurite during F&F . . . yeah, I’d like it to be available more often. And if they make the pick available semi-regularly? I wouldn’t mind it at all. Provided there was normal access to Azurite during some of the year.

If all the unlimited tools had a specific, unusual gathering item associated with them (which nevertheless is available at recurring intervals) this wouldn’t be as much of a conversation.

yorick.1305:

Astralporing.1957:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

dAcIaW.5107:

so how much ranting is needed to get a response from Anet about this P2W kitten?

. . . where’s the “win” getting paid for? Aren’t sprockets tradeable?

It’s really not about p2w at all. Even the fact that this pick can produce sprockets is a least problem here. The real trouble comes from the fact that it is undeniably superior to the molten and bone pick. That means, i just can’t be certain buying anything from the shop, that tomorrow an new, Improved version will not show up making that one i bought obsolete.
It is, as someone already mentioned, something akin to a gear treadmill, only with shop items.

Correct.

I had no idea about this sprocket chance/thing as the item description is exactly the same as the Molten one.

Interesting thought if the Molten Pick was stealth-patched to produce Azurite . . . hmmm . . .

Astralporing.1957:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

dAcIaW.5107:

so how much ranting is needed to get a response from Anet about this P2W kitten?

. . . where’s the “win” getting paid for? Aren’t sprockets tradeable?

It’s really not about p2w at all. Even the fact that this pick can produce sprockets is a least problem here. The real trouble comes from the fact that it is undeniably superior to the molten and bone pick. That means, i just can’t be certain buying anything from the shop, that tomorrow an new, Improved version will not show up making that one i bought obsolete.
It is, as someone already mentioned, something akin to a gear treadmill, only with shop items.

This is a much better argument I’m not addressing because it’s something I can agree with. Somewhat. Though if this pick becomes in rotation with the other unlimited items, well, it’s not limited availability and it’s . . . what, the same amount as the Molten Pick?

Honestly I’d have issued this as either a certified reward for doing some ridiculously hard content or be available for 800 Gems or have a random drop rate of like 1% from the Marionette win chest. If I was required to introduce it at all.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

The only constant in Nature is change. Change is inevitable, it is unstoppable, it cannot be slowed – like time itself, since time is a facet of nature. But of course that is not allowed in humanity’s future in Tyria.

You realize there’s going to be change, yes? One of the introduced recurring groups (The Zephyrites) is entirely human, something which has not happened to other races.

And, as noted, Cantha is more than likely interested in pure human control over the lands. So probably not the end of humanity there unless Bubbles likes Canthan food. (Can’t understand why, I found myself hungry again even off the meals of a renowned Imperial Chef. Even the Celestials got hungry again every four hours and they got a five course meal instead of a sampler. )

VOLKON.1290:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

VOLKON.1290:

TPMN.1483:

I expect sprockets will stop dropping soon – so this discussion will become even more valid.
The invasions of Scarlett’s minions are likely to stop.
The LP boss will stop (in a few weeks)

So this then becomes who has the pick can get this stuff quickly/easily (in large quantities) those which don’t will be really messed up if they only have a home node instance.

The Scarlett minion invasions are set to be permanent content. When the Gauntlet returns that will reintroduce a huge sprocket farm once again, same as when the Zephyr Sanctum returns and quartz mining is once again abundant.

Note: They have said the invasions will stop with the Scarlet arc.

Did they? I missed that. I suppose it makes sense logically. Too bad, once in awhile I’ll go do one just for fun.

I would, but there usually aren’t people interested in doing them. However, Pavilion Champion Trains will start running again and make Queensdale look tame by comparison.

draxynnic.3719:

I’m disappointed in all of you.

Not one of you has mentioned the deadly, unbeatable combination that is spoken only in hushed, fearful whispers in Guild Wars mythology – the all-mighty, devastating, all-consuming Hamstorm!

You have no concept of the power of ham!

Watch, and despair.

Warning: Link to other video game footage.

VOLKON.1290:

TPMN.1483:

I expect sprockets will stop dropping soon – so this discussion will become even more valid.
The invasions of Scarlett’s minions are likely to stop.
The LP boss will stop (in a few weeks)

So this then becomes who has the pick can get this stuff quickly/easily (in large quantities) those which don’t will be really messed up if they only have a home node instance.

The Scarlett minion invasions are set to be permanent content. When the Gauntlet returns that will reintroduce a huge sprocket farm once again, same as when the Zephyr Sanctum returns and quartz mining is once again abundant.

Note: They have said the invasions will stop with the Scarlet arc.

yorick.1305:

The very 1st time these picks went on sale they were meant to be ‘one time only purchases’. Which was false as now they’re on TP almost every few weeks.

Yup. Probably from people complaining about them being one time only. Incidentally why we get the Living Story instead of one time events like Lost Shores.

. . . and the game is much the better for it.

Buttercup.5871:

Wait, wintersday gifts didn’t drop “in massive quantities”? And quartz couldn’t be mined massively during the event through which they were introduced?

Yes, and sprockets are the same. Because of the Pavilion and the really aggressive farms for the Champions there.

Quartz and Sprockets followed the exact same pattern, dropwise. The only difference between them is that one can now be mined consistently (provided you spend 1k gems in the gemstore), and the other cannot.

Crystals. At least three per day provided you got the node from the meta event. Sprockets, at least three per day provided you finish the meta till in progress.

Oh, and there’s of course that tiny difference that you need 125 quartz crystals versus 500 sprockets per insignia. And that sprockets are also required in large quantities for crafting popular sigils. And runes. And portals.

And the sprockets got farmed pretty darn heavily when they existed, as opposed to crystals which could only be mined.

Edit: Also of note, Candy Corn. Which you need 20,000 of for a Halloween weapon. Among other things which no longer drop until next year (and a lot of those things too). These are also incredibly popular, and would require . . . you guessed it, going to the trading post for them too.

Really, at this point, I’m surprised people kick up a fuss at all anymore over this stuff. According to some subscriptions to theory, this game has been “pay to win” since GW1 era. It was “pay to win” back when it began, too, and now this item appears and suddenly this changes?

No. It doesn’t. No, I don’t think this is “pay to win”, I don’t think those home instance ore nodes you can purchase count as "pay to win’ either, and unless there’s a massive overhaul which makes Power/Precision/Healing the most desirable statistic arrangement I don’t see this being anywhere near an incredible problem.

Now, what is a problem? Not being able to get Ascended Armor through any other method than crafting your fingers off.

VOLKON.1290:

After seeing so many posts from people that have no idea what pay to win actually means and/or have no idea what good business sense is (many people that will spend gems have bought infinite mining picks already, how can we tempt them to buy more?) have helped me realize there’s only one possible solution to this faux dilemma.

I need to buy two of these picks and dual wield them.

Oh… and sprockets should be added to WvW loot bags as a possible drop item.

Seriously predicting the Queen’s Pavilion opens again and sprockets become common as dirt all over again

Buttercup.5871:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Also, Celestial stats already require Quartz which people can only get through either mining their own Home Instance node (and then Fusing one per day) or through Trading Post purchases.

Strangely, I haven’t seen as huge an uproar over that.

That’s because you don’t need a gemstore item to get the quartz. The home instance wasn’t bought in the gemstore, it was a meta reward. Moreover, quartz was obtained in large quantities from wintersday gifts. Any and all means to obtain quartz were kept completely separate from the gemstore. Up until yesterday, this has been the policy on any (time-limited or other) crafting material. That is, in large part, what this uproar is about.

. . . Sprockets are available from the home instance also. From a meta reward. They were also earned in the Queen’s Pavilion, which is supposedly opening again sometime in the future to allow access to the Gauntlet.

They also have been dropping from Watchworks from the invasion events, thus have been available in relatively massive quantities since “The Queen’s Jubilee”. As opposed to quartz.

Buttercup.5871:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Buttercup.5871:

Hypothetical? Tell that to the people trying to craft the juggernaut now. Those silver doubloons don’t cost 2 silver each anymore. Doubloons were bought up by people who figured out this item was really difficult to obtain.

Sure you can use your gift of sprockets, but if you need 10k sprockets, it will take a while to get there don’t you think? In fact, the new gear already requires 500 sprockets each, per insignia/inscription. Try and get yourself a full set with just a sprocket node, see how long that will take you.

Luckily those new Insignia/Inscriptions aren’t Berserker so nobody cares

Yet.

The only difference between the new insignia and the new berserker sets will be ferocity (new zerker insignia) versus healing (new zealot insignia). If ferocity turns out to be a let-down – amd we know the damage wil be less – healing might actually be a really good alternative. Especially in WvW, and/or in countering improved difficulty levels of world bosses.

That was sarcasm.

And if Berserker winds up not being as useful, we’ll see builds going probably to find the next best thing. Though I suspect, strongly, unless the entire system is completely overhauled? Berserker is still going to remain “king of the stats” for more people than you’d expect.

Also, Celestial stats already require Quartz which people can only get through either mining their own Home Instance node (and then Fusing one per day) or through Trading Post purchases.

Strangely, I haven’t seen as huge an uproar over that.

Buttercup.5871:

Hypothetical? Tell that to the people trying to craft the juggernaut now. Those silver doubloons don’t cost 2 silver each anymore. Doubloons were bought up by people who figured out this item was really difficult to obtain.

Sure you can use your gift of sprockets, but if you need 10k sprockets, it will take a while to get there don’t you think? In fact, the new gear already requires 500 sprockets each, per insignia/inscription. Try and get yourself a full set with just a sprocket node, see how long that will take you.

Luckily those new Insignia/Inscriptions aren’t Berserker so nobody cares

Buttercup.5871:

Berelious.3290:

And so the poor dead horse continues to be beaten with the big ugly P2W stick. Seriously guys, I’m surprised there’s anything left there to beat. Let the poor thing decompose and get back to gaming like the good little gamer geeks we are.

What if in 3 months time precursor crafting requires 10.000 sprockets? Or 10.000 pristine snowflakes from an “unlimited ice pick”? Should we “revive” the “dead horse” then?

This discussion is valid, and I can assure you not all angles have yet been touched upon. If you have nothing to contribute, please don’t discourage others from doing so.

The discussion is valid from a certain point of view. So would a discussion about a hypothetical crossover between WoW and GW2, or ESO and GW2. I mean, since we don’t know what could happen in the future. Heck, we could also talk about in three months’ time a Precursor could only be earned through landing the final blow on Scarlet Briar and doing the /dance emote.

(Seriously, I hope that one makes it in.)

We can suggest any future we want because it hasn’t been done yet. All we do have is the Sprocket Generator is dead simple to get even starting today, and provides a similar service – accessibility for sprockets after the watchworks go away.

IF they go away.

WvW players do have to come from somewhere, and from what I gather the Edge is sort of a middle ground queue lobby you can get into where it’s sort of even more blended between the two.

Prediction: Edge of the Mists opens, the only involvement with Scarlet are her forces taking over a few points of interest and come the end of Living World Season 1 when we set Scarlet on fire and soak the ashes in charr urine the followers hole up in the Edge of the Mists so people can still fight them after “missing them” so rewards don’t have to be phased out until much later.

laokoko.7403:

I come from the future. Do you know sprocket price have skyrocket to 3 silver each!

Tell me, did we manage to get Scarlet into the wood chipper I tested on Zojja? And did SBI manage to make it to Gold League #1 slot yet? Ooh, and tell me does Kaineng City still stick to navigate?

kokiman.2364:

maddoctor.2738:

kokiman.2364:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Psyx.7368:

When I’m downed my instinct is to press all of the buttons as fast as I can

Fight that instinct. It’s not helping you.

. . . and never play a ranger with a longbow.

Why not?

Point-blank shot will annoy people

So does illusionary wave, I know some people seem to feel the urge to use all their skills in every fight.

But nobody runs around going “mesmers suck” the same way rangers are held up as the quintessential “class nobody should ever ever play”. Even above engineers.

And the reason people give me for rangers sucking usually revolve around idiots with longbows who don’t know how to hold their Point Blank Shot and just use it to shave Defiant off.

laokoko.7403:

Im Mudbone.1437:

laokoko.7403:

Im Mudbone.1437:

rogerwilko.6895:

yes it is.

Message Body length must at least be 15.

P2W is the ability to buy something NOT OBTAINABLE through normal game-play which IS NOT the case for the items mentioned in my reply before yours, so, no it’s not unlike GW2 which has MANY items ONLY OBTAINABLE by paying for them. THAT is P2W.

So GW2 is already pay 2 win 1 year ago? many skins can’t be obtained through normal game play.

That is correct.

You have very high standard.

What if you can obtain every item in the game. But say the sprocket mining pick require 1,000 hours of farming and grinding for gold to obtain or you can just buy from the cashshop for 10$. That means it is not pay 2 win?

Infinite Continue Coin was dubbed “pay to win” despite the potential for one person to farm infinite coins anyway. So, no, even if you had to grind your cute little mesmer’s butt off farming and grinding for gold and could shortcut it with some cash? Still would be called “pay to win”.

kokiman.2364:

Agree we get a lot of features “we don’t want”, sure it’s nice to have them and alot of them are pretty cool but still, the core of the game still has lots of problems that needs to be solved until you expand that core and that’s something they kept saying. Weirdly enough they don’t stick with that plan.

Mostly because of the groups of people who loudly proclaim if there’s not new content coming continuously then there’s no reason for them to stay. I honestly think if they worked on the core between Living Story ‘seasons’ they might be able to nail down a lot of the issues.

Not all of them, because there’s still people who can’t agree on what the issues are.

killcannon.2576:

What the people who are arguing for keeping this and things like this in game are using is a shifting sands logical fallacy. You said it yourself, if it gave out gold coins…then it would be pay to win. Why? It spits out sprockets worth…you guessed it…money. It’s just not that much. But it’s the same exact thing as a pick that would spit out gold coins at your feet. The only thing that is different is a persons perception of what is worthwhile.

Which is a logical fallacy. This is not subjective.

No, I’m not arguing for keeping this. I’m saying there’s always been a P2W element in GuildWars if you care to look hard enough, and this pick isn’t remotely close to what most people think of.

Why? It’s simple. The sprockets are limited-availability. However, the Queen’s Pavilion where there were four areas and you could fight Destroyers, Flame Legion, Bandits, Centaurs? You got sprockets in there. They’ve said, or at least inferred, that area will come back sometime in the future.

This now (provisionally) puts sprockets on the same level as snowflakes, candy corn, quartz crystals, baubles, and the inventory-jamming ugly wool clothing.

Add to the concept of the Gift of Sprockets which can provide a lot of those in the home instance for doing 11 achievements for the current meta-achievement? When it’s possible to earn over half of them in one round of marionette/wurm/energy probes?

Yeah, I really want to point out if anything this is for the lazy people. Much like the unlocks for sale for GW1 mentioned above being for people who were lazy. If this is P2W, so is that. Doubly so since skill acquisition was a major part of that game.

Im Mudbone.1437:

They did? Where? In my six years of GW1 all I have seen was the ability to buy character slots, the GW1 game itself and expansions, extra storage, skill unlocks, hero packs and such using RLM, no stupid gems.

No, no stupid gems but Character Slots were available, as well as:

- Bank Expansion Slots (up to 4)
- Game of the Year conversion
- Costumes (I last counted 7 I think)
- Bonus Mission Pack
- Skill Unlock Pack
- Mercenary Hero Slots (Use your alts as heroes!)

May I note most of that is available through the GW2 Gem Store, except for the last three, were available in GW1? I’m also not sure but I thought I saw you could get License Keys if your account wasn’t unlocked completely . . . wouldn’t know as I bought mine.

Oh, well, you can look for yourself here

How much of this stuff translates to GW2 when there’s a proper analogue? Most of it.

So, yes. By the way, skill unlock pack? “Pay to win” . . . it’s been ArenaNet’s method since before GW2, obviously. So whatever

Im Mudbone.1437:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Psyx.7368:

When I’m downed my instinct is to press all of the buttons as fast as I can

Fight that instinct. It’s not helping you.

. . . and never play a ranger with a longbow.

Why not? I can start by using #4 to start healing up then press my #3 that calls my pet over that doubles or triples the rate of healing and is almost immune to incoming attacks getting me up in the middle of all incoming damage and IMO making the ranger/pet healing combo that leaves all others dead. LOL

I said never play a ranger with a longbow because if you press keys randomly, you Point Blank Shot a lot and kitten people off. Which makes it harder to trick people into thinking ranger is a viable class.

The pet res thing is fine.

spiritus.7983:

But for Watchwork Pick …? if I want to progress in game, how do I get them? ops… I cant, unless I buy this for real money.

and for kids with near sighted opinions, please dont answer “well, you can buy from TP” is not about TP

It’s progression to have Sprockets? Man I must have four stacks of them somewhere, it’s . . . wow, I must have progressed HUGELY then.

Seriously, this is “necessary to progress in the game”? Really?

Obsidian.1328:

You change the lore in your table-top games if it doesn’t suit you? Yikes. That’s low man…that’s low.

Depends on the lore change. I generally get around major revisions by going “okay, new world and new continuity”. Anything minor? I don’t sweat it. The game is there to be enjoyable, not to be my magnum opus, and definitely not to become a continuity snarl of lines I can’t cross.

On the other hand, if it’s something a player brought to me and is integral to their character’s existence? Set in stone, polished, and stuck on a pillar somewhere. I don’t mess with their character histories once established, I only mess with anything I . . . personally . . . wrote, and doesn’t directly impact their characters.

So, bottom line? If the lore and continuity gets in the way of players having a good time? Time for the corrective fluid. If it’s too major I need to basically tear out the guts of a setting to make it work? New sheet of hex paper, new set of index cards to keep track of place names and notes, and new campaign idea. I think I’m up to five now, though I’m not sure how many count since some of them have crossed over via planar travel.

If I wanted to write something where continuity was more important? I’d not be doing D&D. (Seriously, check out how often they go and torpedo their own lore. I refuse to take my continuity more seriously than the people writing the setting books.)

Obsidian.1328:

CETheLucid.3964:

Obsidian.1328:

You realize they literally just changed that a few months ago right?

Nah, that’s been established in the game since launch.

Rytlock Brimstone goes into the short version of it in the AC dungeon. That’s just a case of the print catching up to the reality.

Uhh…no? Rytlock’s speech was simply, “this land used to be ours, then Humans came and built Ascalon on top of it.” Everyone already knew that since GW1 Proph, that was nothing new. What is new is the contention Ascalon is their homeland. There’s a giant area on the map northeast of Ascalon in GW1 that says in big, bright letters “Charr Homelands.”

They could have more than one homeland, you know . . . also a minor difference between “homeland” and “ancestral homeland” – my homeland is one place (Great Lakes region of the US), my ancestral homeland would be somewhere over in Ireland or Germany. Depending on which side of the family I want to call my ancestors today. The same for a significant portion of the US population, come to think of it. As much as it’s their homeland, their ancestral lands would be elsewhere.

It’s important because of cultural identity. Ascalon as the those human’s homeland and not the Charr’s is a huge difference between both claiming it as such. Because it gives the humans a much more legitimate claim to the land. ANet basically went out of its way to retcon that part of the lore to make the Charr seem justified in being there. Why? Probably because they are tired of players kittening and moaning over it and want to move on already. It’s lazy and backhanded writing.

Or maybe they wanted to avoid the appearance of a Palestine/Israel analogue in their fantasy world? We got plenty of that anyway elsewhere.

Does it matter? Not to most players, no. But it just goes to show how little they care for established paradigms and historic precedents when writing the lore. I’m betting they get frustrated with GW1 lore at times and wish they didn’t have to deal with it at all, it gets in the way of their modern zeitgeist of Tyria, as Dustfinger likes to put it.

I write my own stories and my own campaigns for tabletop games and I myself get kittened off at stuff I established before as lore and canon and change it. Especially when I get a new sourcebook and go “this would work great, oh wait, how would they have always been able to use psionics if it was never used before . . . crap”.

Last thing: if Ascalon is the “ancestral homeland” of the Charr, what did they used to call it then?

The litterbox.

Morrigan.2809:

All in all it is a great start I think- and it is what people asked for in the CDI

I hope the other stuff turns out as well as this effect.

Cactus.2710:

I didn’t say anything about USING anything from the CDI. Try to pay attention. What I did say is that ANet made a commitment to LISTEN and RESPOND to the ideas raised in the CDI.

All right then, I hope you guys for the WvW side of things get some of that going on over there. I’ll butt out of the whole bit with that

(Though personally I wouldn’t expect anything. I don’t expect any of the concerns I recall reading about on WvW could really be handled short of chucking the whole thing in a trashcan and designing it all over again from the bottom up.)

Valandil Dragonhart.2371:

Now if they want to have a focus group, then I’d expect the forums would be the last place they’d turn. To put this in context, and if I were a dev myself, I’d much rather take the suggestions from someone that I had the privilege of talking to face-to-face, rather than someone who has put words up on a screen.

And if they’re willing to figure out a way of doing that for me or any other person who wants to meet with a dev for an hour and just talk? I’d be signing up for vacation time a couple months down the line when I could afford the airfare to take advantage of it.

As it is, this is somewhat what the Internet is for. Aside from the appropriate memetic response to that

wookiee.4631:

No, no, no, you’re all asking the wrong question. It’s not about whether he likes Ham or not. It’s about how he likes his ham prepared! Smoked? Cured? I won’t feel like I know this character until more details are revealed!

Warning incoming ham . . .

Lord Kuru.3685:

Again? I don’t think so.

Eh? Best input would be to link the old thread if it’s still up and go “read this before we go further”.

Hope someone gets the memo about how that one’s getting handled