Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
Bear with me on this.
I suggest make the oasis a completely flat surface. No funky terrain, no trees, no cliffs or Ewok homes, just a flat open plain.
It is equal running distance from all spawn points and would become the ideal place for groups to fight. In the blink of an eye it would become the most popular BL.
Flame away:)
My suggestions would be to completely rework the middle and get rid of about 60%-70% of the vertical crap that stands in the way of getting from point A to point B anywhere on the map. Bring the vertical obstructions to the level of EBG / ABL maps to make the map actually intuitive.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
Skill lag has been horrible. We had to pull out of EBG and leave the map many times because of it, sometimes even when defending or attacking a critical objective, and even when we went to another map, if the zerg(s) from EBG followed it resulted in the same, map hopping.
This causes the game to be completely unplayable.
I strongly suspect it has a lot to do with overall HoT powercreep and additional stacks of everything, new boons, more of them, more frequent, more condis, more removal of them, more reflects, more CCs, alacrity, quickness, etc. etc.
On top of that, the raised map caps so now more people are generating the above in the same area / map. Skill lag used to be pretty much limited to 3-way battles, but recently has been occuring in just 2 way battles between full squads.
Either the games servers / infrastructure is completely unable to process all that stuff in a reasonable manner or there is something else going on that is seriously wrong.
In my guild, we were even talking about making an all guardian group for staff 1, since its the ONLY thing that still works semi-reliably. But who the hell would wanna play a game with a group ranging from 30ish to map que size players made up of nothing but guards and DH and using nothing but staff 1 ? Thats stupid and self defeating, as a game is a form of fun and entertainment, and being unable to use your characters and their skills / builds, is absolutely not entertaining, thus defeating purpose of the game.
So we need a fix and a real solution to this, not silly stupid suggestions such as: play a guard, or go somewhere else and roam.
A fairly large percentage of us play this whole game in organized groups because this is what we find the best about it and the skill lag kills this.
As for original topic, naturally, the side with most guardians, or other 1 auto attack spamming power based players will win any encounters where they have numbers advantage. So yes, this is also very bad.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
(edited by Tongku.5326)
To me, the vamp signet just doesnt drain enough, the well really needs a buff, minion I dont use at all, shout is just too meh and needs to do more on both ends.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
Haven’t played WvW since pre HOT.
I had loads of fun playing on a condi-terrormancer support build. (0/6/4/0/4)
I have full set of ascended gear Dire armor with perplexity runes and rabid trinkets / weapons.
Is this gear setup still viable? Or should I spend my time farming a new set with different stats?
I haven’ messed around with the new trait system to see if I can still do a build like this, wanted to see if this gear is still relevant at all…
Appreciate any advice!
FYI, since your gear is ascended, I would switch it, or at least some pieces of it, to traiblazers / viper. Those 2 go together very well when you mix them for various degrees of offense / defense.
You can switch stats on ascended gear nowadays really easy, only thing is, traiblazers can get expensive due to some component prices, or can take a long time if farming for it. Other then that, just do it.
Runes, ditch them, you can use remover if its viable for the price, otherwise use runes to maximize your highest DPS condi.
If you have infusions, those are easily removed as well now, you can buy the removers from a vendor in the fractal lobby, no fractal badges needed, just some silver.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
I’m a new player and don’t feel comfortable roaming yet, so I’ve just been sticking with the zerg. I’ve mostly been dropping null field and trying to spread boons around with signet of inspiration while trying to throw some damage out here and there but I feel like there’s more I could be doing. As someone who doesn’t really have a lot of gear options at the moment what sort of setup should I be using in zergs?
Hi
Ok, for just running around and following a whatever color “dorrito” in text chat, play whatever you want. Pick chrono, inspiration, and chaos for trait lines. Make a power build, make sure you have at bare minimum 2800 armor and 22k hp. Use lots of cleansing traits, run blink and whatever else you like for stun breakers. Make it power based to keep it simple and to the point. other then that run whatever you like, that is a good starting point.
For small scale and roaming you have a ton of options for both offensive and defensive styles and can excel at it, but that is a bit more advanced actually to optimize on all that.
For organized groups, you will unfortunately end up being 90% portal / veil, 10% alacrity. That is your role. Period. This is great fun at first, and there are a few people that enjoy it longterm, but most of us hate being pigeonholed like that and when running in organized guild groups end up quitting our mesmers and switching to other classes because of this. Lack of bags on such a utility mes vs what we get on our other toons is just too much to bare.
So you’ve been warned. Mes certainly has its place, but if you’re not one of the players that can enjoy portals + veil or dinky kitten roaming in very long term, I just do not recommend it for WVW.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
tra la la la, you would see a much higher return on investment if ANet were to focus on improving their ability to use multiple CPU cores than DX11 or DX12. Only 12 really brings a new model to how the software interacts, and even then, only for games that have good support for multiple concurrent cores working on scenes.
Just because DX11 or DX12 have a higher number doesn’t magically make them faster, better, stronger, or bring anything new to the table. Sorry.
^^ This, on the client side.
On the overall game side I would like to see better server hardware and networking so we stop getting skill lag during mass events and WVW battles. Its so bad now it renders much of that unplayable to the point where entire guilds end up leaving maps because of it. That needs to be fixed at least somewhat.
Though I don’t know if going up to DX 11 / 12 and its equivalent network related components wouldn’t help address any of that to at least some degree. I’m not a network or IT guy.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
Not sure tehre is one, but its pretty simple for guards and while individual choices and mechanics are somewhat different from those old ones, not difficult to figure out their overall effects and function and duplicate with the new system.
In WVW you can just hop on teamspeak with any organized or somewhat organized guild, most of the time you don’t even have to be a guild member, just say “hi” and run with them a bit, then ask and talk about it, they will help you out quite a bit. And there is no one way you should be doing things, hence no guide. You will need to adjust to the group you are running with and the function.
Likewise in SPVP and PVE. It depends on your goals and people you run with and what is needed within the given team comp.
Guards can do a multitude of roles and mixes of any of those roles to various degrees, so putting out a single guide is pointless.
If you want to ask examples for some specifics, ask for example :
What are the current recommended builds for max self sustain in WVW ?
What are the current recommended builds for max group support / sustain in WVW ?
What are the current recommended builds for roaming in WVW ?
etc.
Repeat that question for SPVP and PvE,
What are recommended builds for entry level fractals pugging ?
What are recommended builds for entry level raids ?
You get the point ? Its all different, no guides. So with that said, specify your goals and ask for some templates. Please use templates as examples, do not commit ascended gear or alike to them until you have played them on cheap exotics 1st and you actually like how they function and what they do.
Also, for the most part avoid metabattle. Metabattle is bad and often gives outdated, erroneus info, to right down trolling people. To give you an example, it even lists vanila rangers as part of organized large scale group vs group for WVW, thats how bad it is. So avoid it.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
(edited by Tongku.5326)
For me thats relatively easy
Guardian and DH are both in a good spot, not the best at any certain aspect, but good.
There are some things and reworks I would like to see to spice it up and make it more fun though.
Most definetly and absolutely: Gimme Spear and Trident or their equivalents on Land instead of just underwater !!!!!!
Seriously, they are good weapons, 1 utility, 1 melee with some unique mechanics, just adjust them to function on land and off we go !
Rework some stuff that is underused. It is underused for good reasons. It either falls short and fell more behind as everything else got buffed via HoT powercreep, or just kinda sucks in general. Scepter, torch, mace come to mind. Yes these have some situational build and situational uses, but they need to be viable in more general gameplay. Not going into specific issues because they are the same ones that were there since forever and have been brought up and discussed many times in the past. But these along with some traits etc. just need a rework.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
hello, I’m a pvp only player, probaly about average
my skill rating: 1431
main profession: necroI know staff is an utility weapon and builds take it because of the good LF regen with the trait.
But the dps of this thing is waay to low, I always feel like once I swap to staff my opponent is healing more than he is taking damage.. reasons are obvious:
-low single target dps, almost average dps in teamfight if you spec for condi
-autoattack projectile speed is soo slow it misses if opponent runs in a horizontal direction (left or right)So today I had the following Idea, it wont solve the problem but its one step into the right direction in my oppinion:
autoattack: double projectile speed, add 3s of torment on hit, 100% projectile finisher instead of 20%
staff 2: cooldown down to 2.4s, double or triple raw damage so its equal or 1.5 times the autaattack damage, nerf regen duratiom to 3s, leaves a dark field for 3s when triggered
wont talk about staff 3-5 bc they seem to do fine
reasons for idea:
staff 2 cooldown is 2.4s because you can cast exactly 2 autoattacks in between. adding the cast time of the mark a staff necro would gain acces to an every 3second moving dark which he can use for life steal combination with autoattack if it is well placed. this will enhance survivability and dps if played well..on top mark of blood (staff 2) will now deal considerable AOE damage on both condition and power spec, adding more pressure. the autoattack-projectile speed increase will help landing it and the torment is a sort of lackluster for condi builds, can be changed though..
what do you think?
I think that increasing speed on staff 1 attacks would be great, and I would also increase power scaling of off power gear for staff 2 and staff 1 for power necros. Other then that I would leave it alone.
On a condi build my mark 2 already does base of 14-16k (pending might, sigil procs etc.) so increasing that would put it very much out of balance. Of course you rarely reach that due to -condi duration, cleanses, etc. on opponents, but it is good for a low cooldown and ground target instead of direct target, + can be traited.
Staff 3,4, and 5 are good as they are. If you decrease any of the CDs you would have to significantly lower their effects or they would again be out of balance.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
GS is somewhat problematic and not a good choice outside of small or 1v1 encounters.
It has utility if you use GS 2 on top of GS 4 for cleansing, but then you have to stand in the symbol for the duration which in turn gets you killed, thus negating that utility entirely.
GS 2 for DPS is no good because on multiple targets you end up taking too much damage from retal to the point where on offensive builds you’ll end up doing more total damage to yourself then actually dishing out.
GS 5 misses to often for a wide plethora of reasons, target moves out of LOS or buggy terrain, evades, dodges, blocks, stab, etc. Its just no longer usable as it was in the past.
Only thing thats left decent on GS is GS 3, but that is not enough to keep it equipped as we have better choices that do much more and no need to waste a weapon slot.
So overall, it needs to be looked at and buffed a bit as it has been significantly indirectly nerfed via HoT powercreep of everything else.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
They have one giant map but they also have different campaigns with various restrictions/no restrictions and guesting.
To make a single large map work you would have to figure out a proper population size and then you would have problems like que and how to deal with slide show graphics because gw2 encourages zerging heavily.
Graphics is absolutely not the issue, even during the laggiest battles, you can still have a high and steady FPS. If you have graphics issues, then that is entirely and purely on you and your rig.
However, skill lag and general network performance in the game is a huge problem. Just look at your ping rates during different battle sizes and at the same time ask on TS and compare. You will find a ton of correlation there.
Then imagine if there was only 1 server, 1 map, and instead of having a triple map que size blob at SMC for example, you now had map que size blobs from 12 servers, all in the same spot, same battle, then multiply skill lag accordingly.
Simply put, this game does not have even remotely close hardware and networking capabilities to do that. It struggles as it is already to a point where many times, we end up leavign the map because the game is simply unplayable for everyone in the raid.
That is a problem.
Then the 2nd problem. Do you like the days and weeks when all you got is 20-30 people vs 2 map ques ? Is it fun ? Sure it may be a novelty for a day or 2, but pass that …..
Now imagine multiplying this effect times maybe 5 or 10 because now you’re going vs 5 or 10 map ques ? How will you and your team mates feel in the longrun ? how many will just leave to either pve play something else or just do something else ?
How will that go ?
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
im trying to make the greatsword work but enemies like the thief especially interrupt thieves or druids that have immobilize kill me without a scratch on them. anyone have any power builds that use the greatsword that theyd be willing to share?
Unfortunately, GS only has a place in PVE. It does not work well in PVP environments. There are some situations where you get some use of it, for example make a tanky power reaper with GS and use on frontline pushes, but even then, your other weapon sets give you better choices and GS is kinda “meh” at best.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
Trailblazer has super synergy with viper and you can mix the 2 back and forth for various amounts of offense / defense. It also goes fairly well with sinister and carrion on the cheap end of things.
I tend to run a group build with it and change up on the fly depending on what is needed.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
What do you usually see when two zergs charge each other?
Personally, I usually see half the zerg of the smallest force dead in the first 10 seconds of the battle. It doesn’t really make great fight. Would it be more interesting if the fight last longer? I think so and here is my suggestion :
Double the health of everyone in WvW
What do you think?
Personally, I would like to see the sustain and damage reduced across the board. One recent change that I liked made by A-Net was done to the druid class healing. Druids healing base has been drastically reduced, but the scaling from + healing on gear has been vastly increased.
We actually had a guild conversation about it the otehr day and it occured to us, that nearly all stats / abilities on most classes should work like that but do not.
We have too many class / trait ability combos which do not give enough trade offs. If you were to just make a global flat reduction to base of everything across the board, but bumped the scaling from stats gained from gear, then that would take care of majority of the balance issues.
Add to that a reduction across all passives and switching them to actives, and you get overall far more skill based gameplay with far more team comp options etc.
As for fights being longer or shorter, it would vary depending on the comp vs comp. Some would become extremely fast, others would stretch out. There would simply be more variety in group vs group as well as 1v1.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
all this 2v1 stuff should be a thing in the first place, tell me how the following makes sense, how can a server that has come 2nd twice and third 19 times be winning over a server that has come 2nd 18 times and last 4 times. this is basically making 2nd and 3rd place redundant .
Stop going for second and go for first. i’m sure YB knows what’s up. They don’t wanna go T1 again so they don’t really care about the score.
Of cause we don’t want to go to tier 1 , tier 1 is just bg map blobs and mag 15 omega rushes and flying mesmers , but when JQ has a map blog 24/7 it is hard to anything about that and dropping down to t3/4 just means another week of farming db or hod again, no one wants that, but with the system how it is atm there is not much choice.
Thing is, we don’t want you in the tiers below that either. Many of us don’t wanna fight with you, or against you due to your servers playstyle and think T1 is exactly and precisely what you deserve.
As far as the original topic and scoring goes, I like 2-1-1. While in the previous scoring scheme servers would fight for 2nd much more, it also made it logical and most efficient for the 2 stronger servers to fight and decimate the weakest one.
So in practice what too often ended up happening is the weakest server got almost non-stop farmed and its players demoralized and logging out of the game mode. There was no incentive to go after the strongest server. Now there is.
The weakest servers still get ganged up on and farmed but far less then they did before this change because farming them has been made somewhat irrelevant with this change.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
Indeed, HoT introduced lots of new stuff an lots of new / additional stacks of everything for the servers to track, which clearly, in a full scale 3 way battle, this games infrastructure is not able to handle.
In my guild we even made some semi-serious jokes about making full Guard / DH comps for EBG because nothing else except staff 1 works in these situations, its that or simply leave the maps which we have done cause none of the classses / builds requiring higher skill and timing work.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
I think MOA is ok. Only issue I see with it is if you get immobilized for whatever reason while in it and prevented from using moa #5. So maybe reduce immob, cripple, chill duration while in moa and make immune to roots ? Otherwise leave it as it is. If someone doesnt use moa#5 when they should, that is on them, not on the moa caster.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
If it is so powerful why isn’t everyone in that armor and condi build? People forget that condi does damage, but does damage over time, and that makes the whole difference. You have time to properly react to that. It’s much worse to get hit 7k instantly than get 10k condi on you that ticks for several seconds.
Condi is fine, it’s just that some builds aren’t.Builds that hit for 7k instantly do not also have 3200 armour and lots of vit though….. maybe I should have said that the builds that use condi the best tend to be inherently defensive to begin with , and those builds when combined with defensive stats while being able to do damage is annoying to deal with in a small man environment.
Correction your power based builds with 3200 armor and lots of vit do not hit 7k. Ours do, and not just 7k, actually its more often to 9-10k range, 7k is actually an average depending on given team comp at the time of engagement.
+ more cleanses + more resistance + wayyyyyyyyyyy more stab + more stun breaks.
Please keep your personal issues to yourself or the group you usually run with and do not generalize.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
ugh, seriously, you guys truly have nothing better to complain about ? why would anyone want devs to waste their time on something as miniscule as this ?
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
People are leaving WvW is because anet ignore this game mode. There is nothing wrong with the WvW tournament. It brings lots of players into WvW during the tournament. The big population decline after WvW tournament is an excuse by anet. It’s too naive to shirk the faults to the players.
A years after the HOT expansion and the WvW overhaul is just a joke. We find out that anet will only focus on PVE, FOTM, raid, living story, pvp and the next expansion.
The PPK/KDR in december shown that lots of the players left WvW and will never come back. You shut down the WvW tournament as the impact to the WvW population. On the other hand, what had you done when thousand of players left WvW due to lack of WvW update and the same boring content over 4 years.
WvW need a tournament to bring the old players back. There is no reason playing WvW now as winning is meaningless.
This game mode should have never had a tournament in the 1st place due to population / timezone coverage imbalances. And jsut cause you havent seen people leave WVW and the game entirely after a tournament, taht doesn’t mean it didn’t happen and won’t happen again.
I have seen it happen, I actually have the numbers since I was in a huge guild and was doing organization and recruitment. And it truly is a huge number when I multiply it times about half the servers (cause not every server had guilds of our size). If it happened today you’d likely be left with literally nothing but roaming on most, even linked servers.
BTW, the most people ever I have seen leave GW2 and WVW, was not because of balance or tourneys or anything like that. The most people I have seen leave, and those were actually active players, was when YB got propped up by the alliance and all the populated tier 2 servers disappeared. That was so toxic to the entirety of WVW that people literally left GW2 in droves, T2 was left with nothing but single groups of 15-25 players at prime time for months.
So no, tourneys are a negative thing so I wouldn’t want to see them, but even then, mass server hopping and server overstacking is the most negative of all.
All the rest of the stuff like class balance, siege, blah blah blah, all small potatoes in comparison.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
I’m all for deleting dire / trailblazer, as long as we also delete soldiers, commanders, minstrels, etc.
And most of all, delete zerkers. I want that skilless PVE crap out of my PVP modes, completely, totally and utterly. So sick and tired of dumb scrubs setting themselves up for one shots (or single combo deaths), and instead of actually even remotely tryign to do something about it coming here and filling these forums with their utter crap complaints.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
I see a lot of them around, just curious, how come?
As stated above, guards / DH have a ton of group defensive abilities, most important of which is stability. Outside of the stability there are other classes that perform each function better. Rev for boons, eles/druids for heals, war for invulns, etc. etc. but guards have a decent mix of everything + the stab.
Also, DH is a lot more fun to play then vanila guard, so more players switched back to it.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
Good job.
I haven’t messed around with condi guard since the days of the GS burst hybrid builds. But running around with 11-12k health got just too risky for me. Went back to power / sustain. Might take a look at the newly available builds, see if there are any fun looking options.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
This was originally my guild mates nern idea he brought it to my boyfriend then all three of us started talking about it. So this is not all my idea. You all know that in order to have power you have to sacrifice either toughness or vitality somewhere to get precision and ferocity into your build to crit some where. This is not the same with condition damage they can run toughness vitality condition cause damage and be a living tank they don’t have to sacrifice anything to make themselves more deadly. The idea is to have them run precision with condition damage if they want to crit. This makes it so that they have to sacrifice something to be powerful. Now for the criting damage you would not want to run condition damage ferocity and treat it like a for of beserkwrs this would be a bad idea. Because you can have multiple conditions going off at one time and having those all crit for massive damage would be awful. I think the criting should be condition duration so you run condition damage, precision, condition duration of you crit then you get to have that condition duration you have acumilated. If you do not crit then you get the base condition duration of the skill sets why I say use condition duration because it still gives the person that is fighting the condition wielder a chance to cleanse all the conditions.
I dont see this at all. Personally when I run condi, I run viper / trailblazer, roughly about 2/3 viper, 1/3 traiblazer, except some trinket slots and such which are too hard to get or not available in those stats, those slots I tend to go sinister / carrion.
Armor is my next to last stat, usually end up around 2400-2500 range. So dire armor is not where its at, its vitality + protection boon that make condi tough. And heres the thing, that protection, most of the times comes from team mates, my condi traits negate any protection applications most of the time. So the trade offs are there, it is not as you say.
Also to give you some perspective, for example on my necro, in my old, old dire and carrion gear on scepter 2 the base duration is 10 seconds and staff 2 is 8 seconds. Whereas with trailblazer, traits, runes, foods, etc. etc. It gets bumped into 30 secs and 15 secs respectively. To get the 30 secs, I have to have several traits + runes + foods. So forget about me running Runes of Durability (which BTW is an actual and true meta), gear with lots of armor etc. I have lower end armor, mid range health, mid range crit rate, low power. Rest of my tankiness comes from my team mates, which incidentally, are power builds.
To be fully effective I require crit + expertise, lots of it, or there is no way for me to actually stack condis as you say even when using things such as plague signet, corrupt boon etc. They just fall off too fast, dont even need to be cleansed. My opponents usually just LOS me and heal. You have to remember without crit, we can’t stack those stacks you refer to because it takes way too long and by time we get the full stacks fight is long over one way or the other.
On the flip side of it, I run into quite a few people that eat whole maxxed out duration of my scepter bleed, all 30 secs. They LOS me as well but I have them targeted and see their health ticking down. They dont run even a single cleanse, then come here and complain.
On condition meta, what condition meta ? My 2 guilds have entirely switched to power + sustain. Maybe it was a roaming meta like 2 years ago or just before HOT came out and you had all those perplex mesmers running around and engis popping 20k pistol 4 on you, but those days are long, long gone. Things of this nature are far sub-par today and have been for a long while. They still do OK against opponents choosing not to cleanse, but that is a niche role and they do just OK, not anywhere near good or very good.
Condi today is nearly a supplement, mostly used for the soft CCs which are all cleansable. There are some exceptions here and there, for example when trex has their necro condi bumping day etc. but we got around that with ease, took like 3 of us to switch couple traits and utilities and that was that for them.
On the entire flipside of it, my DH and Scrapper are both power based and far better then anything condi. I don’t have to stack anything, I get soooooo many more bags its not even remotely funny, and while on DH in small scale I have some issues because I run large group builds, I tend to eat anything condi for breakfast when on my scrapper. Literally can play one handed vs condi reapers, require 2 hands for thieves and mesmers but still pretty easy.
It all comes down to player choices, naturally, in team vs team, it comes down to team choices, how aggressive or defensive you want to play etc.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
(edited by Tongku.5326)
This new scoring change has upset 95% of the wvwer’s out there. Please change it back
To have 2nd and 3rd place get the same war score per skirmish is awful.
If you are trying to kill wvw faster this will do it.
Please I beg of you change the score thing back.
I’ve done many thousands of hours of wvw and maybe 1% of the population would like this change, but the majority don’t like it and it has made some people already stop playing the game for now.
Please change it back to allow 2nd and 3rd place to get the proper points.
On my server (or rather current link), the vast majority of people I talked to in TS were indifferent to it, rest were divided about equally. And I had a chance to do several raids with different guilds since it went live. So no, you got your numbers very wrong.
On the other hand, there have been a lot of complaints about the T3 structures giving extra points, in these forums (just scroll down and back a page or few), on reddit, guildchat, TS and mapchat while in WvW, because it promotes nightcapping and overall inactive gameplay instead of active participation. Also have already seen days where matches were very stale as all defenders per each respective side would hop from one T3 objective to another, making it too difficult to fight, while simply k-training the T1 objectives over and over. People have indeed simply logged off out of boredome caused by it, myself included.
So your complaint seems to be misplaced about wrong part of the scoring changes.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
This is something I’ve mentioned in another post. Given the recent discussions about scoring I think it’s worth asking for feedback on this alone. The idea is that the WXP gained by the players would be used for scoring. Using WXP gain means the score reflects player involvement in WvW now.
The wiki gives a table of current values for WXP: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_Experience#WXP_Acquisition
I would change the WXP gained from killing players to add +10 WXP for each player rank (invader +0, bronze invader +10, silver invader +20 etc). Experienced players should be worth more WXP. Spawn camping would get you zero (players not alive long enough) plus the players rank (for basic invaders +0, for Platinum invader +50 because they should know there’s another exit!).
I would increase the WXP gained from defending an objective to be the same as that for capturing an objective so that defending is as worthwhile as capping stuff.
To get started:
1. Remove Glicko, and set all server scores to zero. It’s time for a fair and clean start anyway due to the changes in scoring and linking etc.2. Server score = total WXP gained across all the players on that server. Show score for each server. This allows us and ANET to see the active contribution each server makes; helping players see more active servers and ANET to make better links.
3. For multi server links, the linking group score is the sum of all the servers in that group.
Using WXP would keep an element of PPK, and PPT would change to points per cap/defend (which is why it should be the same score for defending as capping). However, other useful activities such as destroying enemy siege would now help towards score too.
Feedback (with reasoning) is welcome!
It is a good idea which I have brought up in the past as well, or similar. Particularly because as you stated it is self balancing across playstyles PPT, group fighting, roaming, whatever else you throw into it.
However, no matter what, the other huge score disrcepancy, being outnumbered would still remain.
If you were to combine this, with some sort of outnumbered system, regardless if its a tiered local outnumbered buff, area local, or even map wide, a buff or just an indicator somewhere on the screen of the current score adjustment or something else entirely, it would really solve or drastically reduce a lot of the negative issues in this game mode.
So as long as there are score adjustments based on player numbers in it, I am all for it, but otherwise no. I can not support any changes which favor the bigger numbers as those will do nothing except make the current biggest issue worse.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
(edited by Tongku.5326)
I dont think ppk needs to be increased simply because of the amount of players the top 3 tiers have atm. If they did that, there would be no way to win against a large server if your even slightly outnumbered.
What needs to be done, is finding a way to balance the population across servers or allow only a set number into wvw (far lower than it is now) because , for example, Tarnished coast has a problem now queing even 2 maps on reset and most of the week, we are outnumbered on all maps. We might have around 40 on map and BG and JQ have several blobs of 40+ running around capping everything.
This has been a problem for far too long… opening already full servers in tier 1 (TC is always between tier 1 and 2 even with low population) while servers like TC with low wvw population struggle to maintain even a prime time presence.
I personally wouldnt mind sitting in que for a while if it meant there would be equal or even close to equal number fights on all maps.
various forms of local “outnumbered” buff affecting scores could also take care of that without having to force player populations to divide and leave servers or stack in order to have a decent chance. it could also be made to affect both playstyles equally further balancing the game.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
No. No it wouldn’t. Having access to both would turn it into a skill spam class.
Weapon skills -> reaper shoud 1-5 ->utility/wep skills -> death shroud 1-5 when cd is off.
Having 5 entire skills is much greater than a single skill.
It wouldn’t because shrouds have CDs. If you were to make the CD global instead of each shroud seperate then it will not be spammable. On top of that, to get the most out of a shroud (either one) you need to refill your bar, otherwise you get only limited use out of it.
its actually a really great idea that would give necros more tactical choices and how to approach each combat, making the game truly interesting.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
Since the beginning of the game and WVW, the hardest thing in it remains one and the same for me.
That is finding a somewhat balanced server to play on that doesn’t suffer from constantly being outnumbered or constantly being held back by gaps in time zone coverage, and doing so without transfer to T1.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
There should be a reward for winning. Let’s brainstorm ideas for it.
It should fulfil the following criteria:
- The reward should be cool/desirable,
- The reward should not be something that makes players more powerful,
- The reward should be temporary i.e. for the duration of the following week (so players don’t end up with stacks and stacks of reward),
- You can suggest alternate rewards for other criteria, such as most camps flipped or whatever, so servers who know they will be creamed (we all know this is due to dev neglect, let’s not discuss that here) can focus on one of these instead of winning,
- I would suggest to any dev considering this that the reward should require a certain amount of hours spent in WvW per week.
To clarify: we’re looking at a firework, a finisher or something equally fun/pointless.
I completely and totally disagree with you. The biggest rewards should not go to any server that stacks the most, but to the one that sticks it out against unfavorable odds the most. That is the hardest, most challenging and effort requiring thing to do in WVW. Hitting the transfer button and 1 spamming ez mode should in fact have its rewards greatly reduced, not rewarded.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
The way the whole current scoring works is kinda stupid. PPK in its current form encourages blobbing to map que size, so many players do just that and justifiably so. But the PPT is even worse, not only does it encourage k-training empty maps but also even moreso avoiding fights in a game mode that is supposed to be PVP based. The extra points for T3 objectives might have been OK, IF the upgrade system was the old system where everything had to be upgraded manually, yaks escorted, camps protected, etc. Under the new system with auto upgrades and speedy or invuln yaks the system is just right down stupid silly.
For small scoring adjustments, as pointed above, capturing a T3 objective should be worth much more and capturing a T1 objective should be worth next to nothing, since paper structures are just too easy to flip.
On the fight side of things, there should have been a local outnumbered and extra points awarded for the players who are under its effects, while a lot less points awarded when they get killed for a long, long time now. This would help with a lot of the scoring issues.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
Right now in wvw Dragonhunter / Guardian >>>>>>>>>> warrior. Indeed, wariors outside of some roaming nike builds are almost as useless as vanila rangers.
In PvE it doesnt really matter unless raid meta, you can pretty much do well on any class on almost all content except upper fractals and raids and even then its more dependant on the rest of the team comp rather then a single player, neither of which I do so I can’t comment.
In PvP I think guardian is in a better spot then warrior, though there is a smaller gap then in wvw.
Also, fun wise, while warrior with its funky novelty builds back in the days such as killshot, rifle, mace/mace/hammer etc. was more fun then guard, currently DH is way more fun then warrior in just about every aspect. Though different peoples opinions will vary.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
(edited by Tongku.5326)
I played a 60 levels of Necromancer way before HOT… what i disliked was that the staff felled like a predominant weapon required in every build i came up with…
How much has changed after HOT, can you have a full ranged or a full mellee build?
And what about a strong support build?
What makes necro fun for me is Reaper spec, a good mix of Viper + Trailblazer gear, well of corruption, corrupt boon and epidemic.
Everything else on it kinda sucks and blows monkey balls.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
I don’t think server hopping in this game can be stopped. In the next game, it will be.
The actual money gained via WVW server transfers is negligible, assuming that around 50% of transfer players spend actual $$ on it instead of farming SW or whatever else meta maps for a couple hours, I would be surprised if it even pays for 2-3 employees per month, and then there are the rest of the business costs.
The transfers can not be stopped because:
- “But I can’t play with my cousins uncles sisters brother !”
- “A-Net U ruined my life cause I can’t go to T1 with my ex-boyfriends BFF !!!”
Etc.
The only legit reason I see for transfers is those that finally got fed up with the flawed system of constant losses due to nightcapping. I have seen servers lose large chunks of population over this, either transferred to something with enough coverage to at least have some sort of a fair match once in a while, or left the game entirely.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
PvP chests are affected, but I have never seen / heard anything directly from A-Net to either confirm or disconfirm that they are affected inWvW.
Would be nice to get an official clarification.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
I need a new game… Waiting for WvW to git gud (any suggestions on alternate MMOs while I pray for a new WVW?).
kinda http://www.tomshardware.com/news/eve-online-ascension-update-feature,32996.html
i played it on and off throughout the years and intend to check it out again after the update launch and patches. its free now so why not ? very different from GW2, slower combat where “evade” skills of all sorts are taken to whole new levels and there is always a possibility of FFA PVP both group and solo, makes things kinda exciting.
word of warning though, very steep learning curve despite the newbie tutorials etc. read up on it 1st, a lot.
AFAIK there is no comparison to WvW though, where you can just hop into a zone and do some 50v50+ random fighting on a fairly level playing field within minutes.
That said, I will definetly try free Eve. The subscription and obvious dedication the game require has always turned me off. The idea of lower level free cannonfodder fighter/small ship mode played just for fun is interesting, but I fear they managed to get something in there that “forces” you to pay at some point even to enjoy that.
tip: check out faction warfare. somewhat of an equivalent of roamers / havoc paradise that sometimes, or sometimes more often, escalates into bigger or even huge battles.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
I need a new game… Waiting for WvW to git gud (any suggestions on alternate MMOs while I pray for a new WVW?).
kinda http://www.tomshardware.com/news/eve-online-ascension-update-feature,32996.html
i played it on and off throughout the years and intend to check it out again after the update launch and patches. its free now so why not ? very different from GW2, slower combat where “evade” skills of all sorts are taken to whole new levels and there is always a possibility of FFA PVP both group and solo, makes things kinda exciting.
word of warning though, very steep learning curve despite the newbie tutorials etc. read up on it 1st, a lot.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
I will skip the talk about flaws and good sides of desert bls so there wont be too much salt on this thread about them. As if that is possible.
Id like to see some changes towards the middle area of desert Bls, its completely useless at the moment with the Powercore event removed. My idea for it would be that they add bloodlust ruins to desert border with a little change. There would be like jump pads that would take you the next ruin (thus bloodlust cappers can help defend the other ruin easier, and defenders can manage to cover more ruins in the 2 minutes). Also it would help getting around the map faster if the pads and ruins are placed smartly (they can be more apart than in alpine borders).
As I see the pads would work like this: each ruin would have 2 pads towards left/right ruin. So it would take 2 pads to go whichever ruin you want. You cant use the Pads when youre in combat. You get revealed when you use a pad. Youre invuln for really short duration when you land (to prevent traps).
Do you like my idea? Do you have better idea? I challenge you to make one!
No jump pads. Jumping puzzleness and vert stuff in general is what makes a lot of people right down hate the DBL, myself included.
I would have some of those vet mobs on steroids, or some sort of objects requiring interaction instead of circles / squares to stand in, that way whoever goes for the “ruins buff” is setting themselves up for a gank just like they do currently standing in a circle or square, but a bit different to break the monotony of it.
Alternatively, put something like 5 ruin type objectives in there and if any side gains control of all 5, they get a supply depot in middle. Not a supply camp that sends out yaks and replenishes itself and has a 5 min RI, but just a single time supply drop kinda thing with maybe 200-300 supply in it that anyone from either side can pick up and once its gone, its gone until all the ruins get flipped again.
But the above idea would be unbalanced unless there was its equivalent on all 5 BLs, as it would make k-training much easier on this particular map, that goes both offense as well as defense (back caps trains).
So i don’t know. I would love for it to have some sort of tactical / strategic importance other then just bloodlust buff.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
For this to work WvW rewards should be drastically increase.
-Each Server would be turned into an Alliance.
-Every month, an alliance is required to pay 1k-2k gold upkeep. (Depend on tier)
-Winning Server would be exempted from paying Upkeep. (3 wins in a month)
-Server unable to pay upkeep would be deactivated.
-Players from deactivated servers would get free transfer to lower tiers.
-Guild can start new Alliance by paying 5k gold.
-Deactivated alliance can be reactivated by paying 2.5k gold
-A new tier will be created once there are 3 new pending alliance
-An Alliance wont get deactivated if there are no pending alliance to replace them.
-Loyalty buff would be given to players, bonuses would depend on how long they remain on the server.
-Winning alliance would go up, losing would go down. Or Winning alliance would get (+ 100) temp glicko (+ 200 for 2 straight win, loosing will get (-100)Edit:
-Bulk of reward should go to Player Kill / Competitive gameplay
-Alliance inactive for 6 months would be deleted
-tier gets deleted if 3 alliance is unable to pay upkeep
-Upkeep scaling, alliance with higher population would need to pay more, to help keep the economy stable, due to higher rewardsUsing this approach, only server with existing community would remain, this approach would also help people keep their “identity” as long as they are willing to pay, this also prevent servers for pushing for 2nd place, and instead servers would focus on the winning server, helping create more balance matchup. Upkeep is needed to prevent WvW on inflating the economy due to better rewards
Better rewards are needed to encourage more people to participate on WvW, and adding loyalty bonus would “help” prevent players from constantly hoping servers. (Perhaps + 100 magic find after 3 months / 200 – 6 months, 300 in 1 year? Etc..
I strongly disagree with several points of this idea and have questions / concerns about others.
1. The gold freebie should not go to the winners, but to the underdogs that decide to stick it out against all odds often through a rather unpleasant and unfun overall experience and most often due to being outnumbered all around or via night capping. Prize should always go to those that put in the most and best effort, not the least.
2. Your gold calculations of per player cost are way off, they may be applicable in T1, and even there sometimes invalid, sometimes applicable in T2, but mostly not. And completely off the scale for anything T3 and lower. Add to that the fact that despite improved rewards WVW is still the least profitable (gold wise) game mode and a ton of WVW players are often flat out dirt broke a lot of times.
3. What about solo pugs and small guilds ? Do they count as a guild and take up a full guild slot in an alliance ? Do the alliance heads (big guilds) just prevent them from joining thus completely excluding them from the game ?
4. What happens to those of us that have multiple guilds in different alliances ?
5. Both PPT and PPK tend to currently favor vastly larger forces, though not always. How does defeating opponents half your group size or smaller fit into the whole “competative gameplay” scenario of yours, do you think that is competative ? The exceptions to these are too few, you have to focus on the averages. You would need to design and impliment some sort of a system which can actually judge “competetiveness”, start taking into account outnumbered conditions etc. and have all its kinks worked out before you start rewarding the so called “competative gameplay”.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
As title says, those deployable cannons were the worst thing I’ve ever seen in this game. And I’ve seen pu condi mesmers…
I have an idea, actually, a really good one, it goes like this:
1. Bring back the portable cannons but only on the lower servers / links.
2. Lower the supply cost to build them to zero.
3. Make sure they do not count against siege cap.
4. Match up the above mentioned under populated servers / links against the overstacked servers.
Done and done.
Underpopulated server issues solved. Overstacked servers issues solved.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
For the most part, I support a lot of the stuff that has been done to help WVW, reward tracks, removal of DBL as main borderlands map, scoring changes, etc. These are all very nice, only shame they weren’t done sooner.
I also really like the server links, had some bad ones, but also some excellent ones, fought against my old server, etc. Its a lot of fun and breathed a lot of life into the game for me.
But the one thing that remains is the population balance. And no matter what is done, it just can not, and will not be done unless the transfers and server overstacking are brought under strict control. And to this account opening of any of the servers that need to be destacked, is right down kittened in every possible form and from every possible perspective except short term only, another round of overstacking them.
This is exactly and precisely what you, A-Net, as devs and administrators needed to prevent from happening in the first place and ever again. But instead you kittened it up hard and now you’ll lose even more players and be faced with even more dead servers.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
I think this thread exemplifies the challenge Anet has with regards to getting guilds that want new members to move to smaller servers.
Na 22 Server no full. why no one want xfer off ?
because Anet Server Population include Quit game player.
still doing WvW player is lowest and lowest.
Is 2014 wvw same as 2016 now ?
no.
Nope.
You need to check your facts. Like you said, its 2016 not 2014 and the system which currently determines server population no longer counts inactive players / accounts. In fact, I do not understand how can someone that has been a WVW player for any decent length of time be so unaware and miss this entirely.
On topic, the current situation is a total mess and no matter what they do or do not do it will just create a bigger mess.
If they open the top tier servers for transfers, then the remaining tiers will become desolate, like they did about 2-3 months after HOT launch and this desolation does go upwards, just like it has done before. Do you want that ? Right now you are bleeding people slowly, do you want to bleed out half more in a matter of 2-3 weeks just like the last time around ? Is your memory that short you wish to repeat that ?
On the other hand if they leave them closed you will continue to bleed people out slowly just as now. BUT, you will eventually get low enough for server to open, while the lower tiers will remain mostly as is. This is the lesser of the 2 evils. There are no good choices here, only bad and worse. So you can only pick the one that will do less damage to the game as a whole, rather then the one that destroys the whole game and does it at many times faster rate.
My personal thoughts are that it is too late for overhauls and complete system changes in this game. Hopefully next game will be limited to, and done by geographical locations / timezones. Another words have server groups for player populations limited to their own / similar timezones, or have no servers at all. This will eliminate the coverage / gap issues.
Last but not least the whole game could be redesigned from the ground up and have for example only 1 or 2 servers for whole WVW / RVR game regardless of how many players are on it. There are technical challenges, but it can be done for example :Eve Online (among others).
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
(edited by Tongku.5326)
Just curious.
Me?
Once. Three years ago.
Transferred, once, reason: wanted to have more people and more WVW focused people to play with.
But I also opened a 2nd account in the days of $10 GW2 which now adays has been almost completely shelved.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
I am really looking forward to Tuesday’s class balance, spvp has been a nightmare as well, to the point where I stopped playing the season after like 20 games.
Anet cares about roaming in that they keep making changes to make roaming more helpful. Yak-upgraded objectives and the new skirmish system are fairly recent changes that encourage roaming.
The problem is neither the spvp nor the wvw teams have any control over class balance and the team that does is mostly interested in pve.
That is incorrect. The primary balance in this game goes of off and is designed for ESL matches. Then PVE 2nd, WVW altogether, regardless of fights scale the last.
They did state that WVW focused balance changes are coming, we’ll see how it goes, and just because they are coming, no one knows how many changes there will be or if they go out all or most or one at a time etc.
Granted that often times it fails even at that, but that is its main point. BTW, try some other MMORPGs and you’ll realize just how good, our bad balancing here is. Yes, MOBAs and FPS games obviously surpass GW2 in balancing, but I play GW2 because its an MMORPG, not a MOBA or FPS game. When I want to play those, I do exactly and precisely that.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
Hey everyone,
I wanted to address the idea of moving world linking to monthly instead of every 2 months, since it is being brought up more and more frequently.
The team isn’t opposed to this idea; we actually think it would be beneficial to move to monthly because it would allow us to iterate faster on how we are calculating which worlds should be linked.
I don’t think how many people realize how much a 1 month relink will discourage band wagoning. It will cost to much to do for the usual wvw player. Band wagoning in some form will always be a thing, because people always try to game the system.
You are never going to stop these kinds of movements, and taking options away from the player base is only going to be met with backlash. You want to stop server server stacking?, then give players incentives to stay on their server. It could be as simple as giving wvw reward tickets for staying on a server every month after being there longer than 2 months.
Imbalances will not have 2 months to widen, instead they will have half the time which will result in better linkings and match ups.
Lastly, I get your from EU, it the linkings may not be working there. Here in NA it’s a totally different story (aside from the same bandwagon problem). WvW has not been this lively in a long time.
Scoring adjustments per tiered outnumbered across all WVW maps per each skirmish can negate the entire bandwagonning without preventing people from playing together or how they like, or in tiers they like for fights size etc. Its a Win-Win-Win situation.
BTW I like the links and strongly disagree with the OP. Yea, he/she got shafted on the particular link and matches, but that does not mean things will not change with next links or that its bad for most of the other servers.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
(edited by Tongku.5326)
Hey everyone,
I wanted to address the idea of moving world linking to monthly instead of every 2 months, since it is being brought up more and more frequently.
The team isn’t opposed to this idea; we actually think it would be beneficial to move to monthly because it would allow us to iterate faster on how we are calculating which worlds should be linked. However, the main reason for not doing this right now is the matchmaking algorithm, Glicko. Each time we shuffle worlds via world linking it takes about 4 weeks’ worth of matches before Glicko begins to reliably match make those new worlds into balanced matches. If we did world linking monthly, Glicko would not be able to create balanced matchups.
Our next priority poll is going to be asking if players would rather have us work on adding rewards to skirmishes (and possibly other feedback items being collected from this thread) or replace Glicko matchmaking with a 1-up 1-down system (wherein the winner moves up a tier and the loser moves down a tier.) The 1-up 1-down system should work better with monthly linkings than Glicko, so we are most likely going to hold off on 1 month linkings until that system is in.
Another possibility we could pursue is 1 month linkings, but use the Glicko offset system to guarantee the matches. Alternatively, we could manually change Glicko ratings to what we believe they should be for each world. Either option would force worlds to start out closer to being in the correct tier and thus give better matches faster. These options are contentious, so even if everyone on the forums seemed to like this idea it would be something we would poll on.
Glicko definitely needs to be more reactive or gotten rid of. Personally I am OK with either.
The link merge time, I am a bit weary. On one side 2 months is enough time to get to know people and play with them, 1 month may be too short. On the other side there are those servers that no one wants to be linked with because they just plainly and simply suck as a server and that is the bottom line of it. In the latter cases people on just can’t wait for the link to be over so that they get paired with someone else.
For the same reason noted above, permament server merges are a horrible, just horrible idea, unless the only servers that get perma-merged are ones where the population votes on it and both gain the upper majority to proceed. And yes, there will be servers left without any links because they suck either altogether, or people are too vulgar/hostile, or their overall playstyle is sub par to what most players expect, etc.
The 1 up 1 down, I would definitely give a try and see how it goes, but reserve final judgement for after a month or so. Give it a few weeks for some one ups and downs to actually take place to get some results.
The thing that all these changes will help to various degrees (some more some very little), but not solve, is population imbalances both during each respective links prime time and off-hours.
To do that, the score system, no matter what it is and what form it takes, needs to be at least somewhat based on the population differences per given skirmish. This needs to affect both PPT and PPK on about equal basis. This would also alleviate the effects of bandwagonning to an extent (from little to large effects depending on the value of the adjustments)
One of the primary purposses of server linking was to help alleviate those differences and I just don’t see it happening without such scoring adjustments no matter what timeslots etc. the matches are cut into.
The thing that the links succeeded at, is providing actual action in what was a nearly completely dead and empty game mode. Yes there are exceptions to this, but its a much better overall situation then it was many times over. So I would love for the links to stay, don’t want to go back to empty maps
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
Skirmishes themselves are OK, but they are not enough still to reflect population, and / or population per timezone differences.
As many above have posted I would like to see skirmishes go to 2-3-4 or even 3-4-5 instead of 1-2-3 for the same exact reasons as they did.
Also, there needs to be some sort of scoring adjustment based on outnumbered conditions. And by outnumbered for the score, I mean total players in WVW on all maps per each respective side during any skirmish. The game already has ways to keep track of how many players it has, it knows when map caps are reached and outnumbered buffs activated, so it wouldn’t be very hard to add a few tiered thresholds and some scoring adjustments based of off those.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
Does anyone know if the chill traits work with any chill source or if they only proc’ with greatsword? I will look into this over the weekend.
Chilling Nova, Chilling Victory and Deathly Chill work off of all sources of chill that you inflict.
Irrelevant. Equip other weapons that have actual condi synergy, watch your damage output go up somewhere around 5-10 times vs all of that put together, scratch your head, take waypoint to LA, try out a couple GS skins, put them in your bank or inventory to look at.
Thats about the extent of it.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
Moa I do not see as an issue at all, all classes are affected by it equally.
Not really, engi keeps his turrets/gyros.
its still negligible even with the turrets and gyros. I happen to play all toons, including engi and mes and I can tell you, moa is sub par in a ton of situations. Most of the time I end up using Signet of Humility on my mes for its passive in certain builds, not for the moa. With Engi, I use the moa on top of hammer 5 in WVW which is quite effective on mellee frontline pushes both for defense and offense, but then again, thats 2 skills combo vs a single well from either nec or mes that does same basic job for the reduced cast times / usage and only 1 skill.
turrets i care nothing about, they are supremely easy to deal with even on a traited engi and if that engi is actually dumb enough to trait for them then he/she will kitten their entire build in both defensive and offensive manner, double that if its a scrapper, its about the most stupid thing an engi could do.
gyro traited hammer scrappers are of course all about the bunker and survivability. they don’t run kits or turrets. while they will survive the moa sometimes because bulwark or stealth can be up, they can’t kill you. if they do pop out of it and kill you then that is purely on you not on them, they do just about the 2nd least DPS in the game whic hanyone can confirm simply by doing it by themselves on the in-game available golems, or by using google and checking out any of the widely available DPS charts / spreadsheets if they don’t feel like testing themselves.
in addition, their survivability with the said gyros up, is still comparible to that of tank build guard / DH, war / berserker, druid and even tankish build tempests. those also survive moa on regular basis and they don’t need any gyros or turrets, that is mostly of off passives.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF