Guild Wars 2

Challenge and reward do not go hand in hand, that is simply false. Just take a look at your surrounding and come back to tell me with a straight look in the face that for example a surgeon should not be paid and morally rewarded better than he is right now where he has to look at every step he does to not get sued while a middle management bankster cashes in royaly while screwing up on all fronts.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Astralporing.1957:

Neither are you, remember?
Basically, both of you ask for rewards that you want to be obtained playing content that you like. The only difference is that he is okay with you getting what you ask, while you do not want to share.
Now, who is more entitled here, i wonder?

Except that I don’t ask for anything. Devs create content and add exclusive reward to it. No one cared about this for 3 years. What changed now?

Astralporing.1957:

Therefore, if you use that gear as a baseline for the new content, you do need to rebalance its acquisition – because the assumptions for it no longer hold true. Or you admit, that this assumption was a lie from the very beginning.

So increased drop of ascended chests with select-able stats from first bosses in raids, map reward system that will give expensive mats to you for doing random events and entire fractal rework to make them more casual friendly is not enough?

Because it is the first time that something useful for anyone is hidden behind only a single type of content, that´s why. Nobody, probably included you too, cares about a fractal weapon skins, fancy burning backpack from PvP or exotic quality edge of the mist weapons in regard to comfort and versatility.

And no, Ascended is not the same as legendary armor. It may statistically be the same, but misses the one quality that makes legendary vastly superior, versatility. It´s like driving a tank against an omnimech. Both are build of the same material and have the same firepower, but how one thing is superior to the other should be clear to everyone.

I think this is pretty funny. There are really guys, assuming very few girls are willing to do such, that like to make a raid their second or even first job. As long as my dps is fine, nobody cares if I don´t give any boons or have the movement abilities of a brick shelf with my colleagues having to bust me out of this or that. Glorious, indeed.^^

PopeUrban.2578:

People want to use their hard won, hard earned, meticulously designed gear and builds. It is the task of the developers, not the players, to create challenges that take the progression up to that point in terms of learned player ability and equipment and say “alright, you’re so tough, try this.”

Creating content specifically designed to be trivial doesn’t create an inherant challenge at all. You could call dungeons extremely challenging, but only if you solo them, but the intent of the content is not that they are solo instances.

What I actually said was that the raids are, obviously, designed and tested around the best tools avaliable. Would it be cool if there were some sort of reward system that handed out even better stuff to people that chose to do the content in greens or whites? Absolutely!

Thing is, the content is designed with a certain checkpoint of gear, and that checkpoint is the exotic/ascended bar. It’s also designed specifically around the understanding that those attempting it will likely do so with every advantage they can muster. Designing it any other way, say, with everything completable in whites solo as the baseline goal immediately trivializes the content and calls in to question why better gear or larger parties exist in the first place.

When people complain about the challenge of content, it isn’t becuase they can’t create additional challenge for themselves. They certainly can. However, there’s a certain assumption when you take the time and effort to, say, build a set of ascended armor, and that’s that you can actually use the little extra numbers on it. That was after all why you built it.

Content intended to further the goal structures of players also must be designed around the assumed maximum power capacity of those players, including all statistical buffs and class synergies.

The people saying to htfu or whatever are speaking a truth in the rudest way possible. It is healthy to have content intended to be “the ultimate achievement” toward which players are intended to strive if they truly wish to prove themselves. It is also healthy to reward those that can succeed with something special.

Attacking that concept is a personal choice, but it is one that simply discounts the very real and valid desire of a massive part of the player population that says “I want to do something difficult in PvE, and I want to get really cool loot from it that I can’t get by doing anything else, because that’s what makes it special.”

The persecution complex espoused by certain players (not necessarily you) that they deserve equivalent rewards for doing content that is not equivalent has reaches a much higher point of forum toxicity than the counterpoint. It is littered with thinly cloaked or outright brazen insults, and quite frankly it saddens me. If people can play PvE for years and never care that they’re not getting WvW or PvP rewards, why do they suddenly have such a massive problem with raids?

There is no reconciling these two points of view as they are diametrically opposed.

One side of the spectrum wants unique and valuable rewards for unique and challenging content. They are of the mind that rewards should be primarily a test of skill, and that trophies are fun, meaningful, and add to the game. They see these as new and interesting challenges to acquire new and interesting things.

The other side of the spectrum would prefer rewards to be a function of scale, in which any given thing can be acquired by working longer rather than harder. They are of the mind that rewards should be primarily a test of earning power of just desire, and that trophies keep them from having things they want. They see these as impossible roadblocks that prevent them from acquiring new things.

Neither extreme is completely right, nor completely wrong.

Arenanet has opted to hover in the middle, realizing that pleasing extremists is effectively impossible. Anet values the non-raider that recognizes and accepts why they don’t have raid rewards, and anet values the raider that recognizes and accepts that they can’t fully utilize their rewards without playing a hefty helping of content they may find “easy” and “boring”

The entire system is built on a foundation of assumed tolerance. They expect the raiders to tolerate open world content and living stories, and they expect the non-raiders to tolerate raids.

Why people can’t simple tolerate one another is beyond me. It’s a video game for the sake of pete. I haven’t attained 100%, or max rank,, or collected all the collectibles, or whatever in virtually any game I’ve ever played, and it’s doubtful I will do so. However, is seems silly to suggest that simply because I can not achieve it no one else should be able to. I simply haven’t because I haven’t made it a priority, not because the game itself is actively hostile toward me.

There is no hard to win content vs. People want to use their hard earned builds and equipment.
How does that fit together? And even if it fits together somehow, how does this take away that the central ethos of raiding, htfu and get better by practice and hard work, is violated by the concept that they demand equally good equipment and chances when it suits their needs and desires, but do not want to work for it? In my perception, this is the central hypocrisy here.

I am more willing to have PvP people have unique rewards because you can get nothing there that a dungeon/open world can´t give you too or skins only. I dislike PvP and only do it when I have absolutely nothing to do elsewise, but there is little of interest for me to get out from, so I tolerate it. If I was a PvP player, I would probably have complained for years how unfair that is.
Wvw is the red headed step child of GW2 anyway regarding rewards. And again, there is nothing in wvw that is needed outside of wvw that could not be adequately(my central point) replaced by other stuff.
I tolerate and do fractals because they start easy, anyone with two hands and a vague idea about playing GW2 can play them from 1-9 with little practice and give rewards quickly. Beside, nothing of any gaming value that you can´t get elsewhere can be gained there too, skins are cosmetic only.
And there we are with raids. Unique reward with legendary armor, cannot be gained by any other source. I would also be kittened if it would be at least tradeable, but not that much as right now. Give any other mode of playing the chance to obtain the amor, and you ill never hear me complaining about raids again or set a foot in them. And this is the central problem today, Anet knows that there are enough people like me that they could never catch with raids if the reward is not exceptional, so right now I feel shoehorned and forced into it.

Tough luck you may think. Well, yeah, tough luck for me. But don´t think everybody of my kind is a loyal customer of a franchise, some people will just pack their bag and go.

My conclusion would probably be:
Give me an alternative, even grindy way of obtaining the items I want if that pleases the hardest content for best reward crowd, then people can be happy in raids with my best wishes.

Raids are either here because:
a) The raider supporters, cried so loud and passionately that Anet finally gave in to their latent desire to build a standard element of MMOs in their game while pushing away any ideas about the unique attempt of GW2 being a game without old routines. Yes, other things are taken from other games too, but that may be as wrong as implementing raids too depending on what we would be talking about.
b) Numers don´t lie, and they told Anet that income is either not as desired or could be better if they targeted the hardcore audience more.
c) a third party with enough influence(pulisher, shareholders, parent corporation, money loaner, bank) demanded it.

That you feel challenged by them is part of the strategy to sell them to you, not the purpose. I feel annoyed by this feature and was not even sure if I would buy HoT because of it but bought the expansion in spite of that content, not because of it.
Concluding from that, my physical, social or mental ability to do a raid is irrelevant if I am not sold on the concept. Anet knows that peole like me are at least a large minority and so puts their best carrot behind the content, forcing me to at least try my hands on raids.
Kind of like a parent that tries to sell the vegetables/meat/sauce on the tables to the children that don´t like them with the promise/thread that there will be only sweets for them if they eat their plates empty. Funnily, this leads to a growing number of adults who passionately hate vegetables/meat/sauce because they were forced to eat them as children.

“You will like it, if you think you like it or not.”
never sold anything to anyone on a voluntary basis, but still it is a largely held opinion even today.

Although I had a pretty good laugh at the car example and it also has some merit, it does not really fit the problem.

HoT(the car) is running. So you already have wheels, steering wheel etc etc. But you´re buying the basic model only while you really want the luxury car, with the seller assuring you that there will be more gadgets coming in the next time for your car and they will be free to you because of the buying contract for the luxury model you made. Depending on how long it takes and what kind of a person you are, this is either an argument for a sale or totally irrelevant for you(buy HoT or not) .

I have to admit that I felt that asking for a character slot was justified as it was good practice in GW1 too and would have won hearts instead of leading to a lot of angry people instead of emotionally worthless trinkets and titles. A title stating that you bought HoT earlier than others is totally worthless in my eyes and says the same like your telephone bill about you, aka how long you have lived in a certain place. Do you even tell your friends how long you live in your appartment or house? I certainly don´t.
I also thing it is bad practice and rude behaviour to treat your regular customers like second class people, but it is also a common business practice to give the best offers to new cutsomers in the hope to lure them to stay with you.

PopeUrban.2578:

Torolan.5816:

PopeUrban.2578:

Leodon.1564:

Brimstar.9036:

The people who are saying 5% difference is nothing but between 10 people its a 50% difference collectively but…that 1-2% extra damage (per person) can be 10-20% more damage effectively.

Before you decide to have a hernia over math, you should first make sure your math is correct.

Truth. Here is math in real life.

1% of 100 is 1

100 * 10 is 1000

1 * 10 is 10

1% of 1000 is 10

a 1% buff times 10 people is still a 1% buff.

a 1% buff times a billion people is stilla 1% buff._

Math is not my strongest suit, but if you have for example 100dps per member and per tick and need to reach 10000 in another amount of time, 5+ for everyone per tick would be quite a factor if it is designed in a way that you will barely make it if you have only 100?

With that in mind, should the hardcore crowd not shed off their ascended armors voluntarily rather than asking for them to be not necessary? I thought that you are looking for a challenge? There it is, build just for you, the 1%ers, as you are so fond of saying to us others.^^

I don’t know what you think I’ve said, or what group of people you think I represent. I’m sure some people will happily attempt to do it in greens or naked eventually, but that has very little to do with the challenge versus reward baked in to the encounters themselves.

Personally, I try to use the best tools avaliable to me to complete the task at hand, but most of my test raid party (and my live guild for that matter) hasn’t ever found ascended necessary outside of fractals. Unless there’s an artificial mechanic (like agony) that literally requires certain gear the difference is pretty miniscule.

I’m also not sure what I’m supposed to be fond of saying, and to whom “others” refers.

Can you please clarify this a bit so I can respond to you properly?

Quite the contrary, it has everything to do with reward vs. challenge debate. If you artificially lower the challenge by putting on the best available gear, should not also the reward be lowered on the premise that you spun kind of a safety net? If not, any argument that raids are done for the challenge and not for organization-fetish elitism or group experiences are moot or at least severly weakened. The fact that it is available so you should use it is irrelevant for that kind of argument, either you are looking for the unbriddled wrath of a challenge or are also indirectly asking for less hard content in that way.

And for the second paragraph I was refering to a group of people, not you specifically there. The kind of people that tell others to htfu and seek challenges with a dedicated resolve but are unwilling to spend some hours crafting because they quickly sell all their materials after they get them and are now to cheap or lazy to farm them so they come out of the woodwork, ironically demanding that their hand is held and exotic is enough for them to do a content that is made! for people dedicated to the game and their content who are willing to sacrifice time and effort into it.
The irony, hubris and hipocrisy of this is so thick that I nearly feel compelled to cut out a piece of it.

I refuse to use my feet, the feet of another being carrying me, a machine carrying my lazy bum etc etc as long as there are teleporters waiting to carry me^^-

Once you do lvl 20 fractals regularly, you are not showered with rings, but bombarded with them. I right now hope I don´t get another ring until they are made salveagable, and I already sold dozens of them over time for 4S 95C, that´s how often you get them.

If legendary armor is crossing my way as frequently as ascended rings do and I can grind them from the first raid boss, you can take the rest of the raid and shove it up there where the sun does not shine until I have it.

I find it particularly funny that PvP players, the probably statistically at least likely group to join a raid(being characterized as killer types of players), defend them. You people should be angry the most that raids are implemented because you were basically fed garbage for years and always came back for more to ask
“Thank you, good sir, can I have another one please?”
just to look at another round of garbage drops for the foreseeable future while a minority(Yes I, think it is a minority. Prove me wrong if you can.) of hardcore PvEers finally get their stuff with the best loot available.

Edit: If the accounting division of Anet tells Colin tomorrow that he has to dance naked in the streets before the Anet HQ to metaphorically keep their heads over water, you can bet your last dollar he would do it. If things turn out invaluable and have no in company defender(which is the worst thing that can happen to a company, a product defender in its own ranks), they are discarded or put on hold. A promise from a CEO means nothing if it is not made to stock holders, and even then it is debatable.

PopeUrban.2578:

Leodon.1564:

Brimstar.9036:

The people who are saying 5% difference is nothing but between 10 people its a 50% difference collectively but…that 1-2% extra damage (per person) can be 10-20% more damage effectively.

Before you decide to have a hernia over math, you should first make sure your math is correct.

Truth. Here is math in real life.

1% of 100 is 1

100 * 10 is 1000

1 * 10 is 10

1% of 1000 is 10

a 1% buff times 10 people is still a 1% buff.

a 1% buff times a billion people is stilla 1% buff._

Math is not my strongest suit, but if you have for example 100dps per member and per tick and need to reach 10000 in another amount of time, 5+ for everyone per tick would be quite a factor if it is designed in a way that you will barely make it if you have only 100?

With that in mind, should the hardcore crowd not shed off their ascended armors voluntarily rather than asking for them to be not necessary? I thought that you are looking for a challenge? There it is, build just for you, the 1%ers, as you are so fond of saying to us others.^^

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Didn’t log into the forums for a day, and I walk into this…

Anyways, let’s go over some of the discussion that’s been going on in this thread. I’ll take the arguments apart one by one to make it easier to digest:

Raids should have different levels of difficulty like FotM

No. Raids are hardcore end-game challenges. What’s the point in saying “I beat the first Raid Wing” when someone can say the same thing with an easy button engaged? There should not be the opportunity for everyone to beat a Raid. Either your team is good enough to beat it, or they’re not. Simple as that.

Raids with lower difficulty levels won’t reward as good

It’s not just about the loot. It’s about the accomplishment of actually beating the content. If Anet were to implement easy Raids and hard Raids, you basically kill the content.

I can’t do Raids. I’ll quit the game.

Raids are just one single challenge in an entire game full of Casual friendly content. Just because you can’t complete this 1% of the game, doesn’t mean the other 99% ceases to exist. No one will quit the game just because of Raids.

Designing Raids means Devs have no time for other content

There are multiple teams working on multiple projects at any given time. Once HoT goes live, the team goes right back to designing Cantha making other content. I wouldn’t be surprised if Colin already has people working on the next expansion.

Raids are an MMO trap the Colin promised there wouldn’t be any

No, Raids are just one more type of game play. Don’t like Raids? There are still Dungeons and FotM for you and your party to run.

I’m a Casual gamer, so I can’t play Raids

Not true. Raids are open for anyone to try. It’s not locked away from you. The part that will prove to be difficult is beating the end boss. But failures should encourage you to become a better player, and a better team.

Raids require me to have good gear

Yes. Yes it does. And that’s not a problem at all, since this is end-game Elite level content. If you’re not geared to walk into the hardest content available, then you’re not prepared to win. There’s a Gear Gate, Skill Gate, and a Mastery Gate. Later wings require all three, and then some. Think of it like that sign at the Disneyland rides: You have to be “this” tall to enter.

1. Maybe people like me don´t care about beating that wing easy or hard, but we care about legendary armor. That`s my personal motivation to even touch raids, elese wise I would not even mind them at all.
2. See point 1. Doesn´t matter to people like me, grind is ok as long as we get the shinies in the end. You can still boast about your Red Alert Hardcore raid, especially with people who care about that.
3. Lol, of course some people will quit because of raids. Some because of broken promises, some about being treated as second class citizens if they don´t bend over and do raids. The same would have happened with fractals if there was a substantial reward in them. The question is the incoming vs outdropping players ratio, not that it will happen.
4. You know as good as I that Anet can barely make one thing, how could they devote time to two or more things. SAB and a million little other things say hi with that.
5. Raids are a trap is as good of an opinion as raids are not a trap.
6. “I am a casual gamer that does not have time to beat the raid” is a very good reason to not make a raid. Just because “I am physically and mentally able to try, so all is good and fair” is such a dribble and meek argument that I can barely understand that it is used. I can also try to reach my working place by foot, but I would basically go home as soon as I would have arrived home. Should I go to work now with that idea because my anchestors obviously walked at least 10 miles a day and I theoretically could too?
7. Raids require good gear, the only point I agree upon with you. I especially like the disney land comparison with rides where kids are crying be cause they can´t enter this and that and have to be caressed by their parents then. I am pretty sure that Anet will have to caress too, or the families will not visit Disney Land again…

There is a Tengu with a drawn bow in the news about PvP paths. That´s how desperate I am looking for some Tengus even in news not even concerning them.^^

She already is in the reactor fractal, although it is just a cameo appearance.

Caudecus could be the best villain in this game if really let loose. He is the guy with the diplomatic pass than can basically do as he pleases as long as it is not open rebellion. But so, he is part of a dungeon chain of events and will stay the same, a guy with potential but second fiddle for the sake of continuity.

I barely remember Kudu, probably because he is a smurf which I loathe. Shame on you Anet for not bringing in Tengu but smurfs! shakes fist !

Scarlet on the other hand was nice, as was ls1. Sometimes I caught myself sympathizing with her because she seemed to follow a plan to save her sanity and people from themselves.

Faolain is ok, but I am more of a Trahearne guy to be honest.^^

I also have a personal distaste for both Logan and Rhytlock and could see both as heroes and villains all at once. Logan would let everything go up in flames if Jenna asked it from him, and Rhytlock, beside being a xenophobic isolationist, is a father that barely and then only meekly confirmes this fact to his daughter, one of the lowest forms of life I can imagine.

Did not really understand or sympathize with Caithe in ls2 either, but that may be just plot hammering.

Taimi on the other hand should be put into arrest immediately after running away and finding so many fascinating things in Scarlet´s hideout. There you have a new scarlet growing directly at the powerbase of the new heroes.

Edit: Evon, that bankster scum, is also high on my list of despisable people that should be seen as villains.

I don´t know about you PopeUrban, but i would have been much less kittened if the message sent from Anet would have been:
“Hm, ok, you can have the legendary armor. But you at least need to do any one part of the raid successfully once for the piece of legend found there”
instead of:
“Hm, ok, you can have the legendary armor. But we hide everything about it behind multiple instances you have to suffer through until you get your legendary armor. If you´re interested in raiding or not is of no consequence for us.”

Although a toad, I would have swallowed option A with much less groaning and moaning than option B as that not only offers me just one way of playing for a long time if I want the content, but is nothing less that a hardcore grind for me.

Content does not change in the middle of the fight either, so that it does not change in combat is rather irrelevant in my opinion. But you are right in a certain way, it is much more like the omnimech instead of the transformer then.

You can change your zerk gear into soldier or celestial within a few minutes and join where you want with whatever you want in the confines of your armor type and available classes. If that is not a vast advantage and a comfort funtion all in once, I don´t know what comfort and versatility are.

PopeUrban.2578:

If you want legendary armor that is functionally identical to ascended armor should it not also follow that you’re willing to do what it takes to get it? You’re not going to just get it handed out during the raid either. Getting any new legendary from here on means doing stuff you might not want to do because they are all account bound

It is statistically identical, not functionally identical. Ascended is missing the central component of the function of legendary armor, adaption.
Basically, if you have a zerk ascended Armor, you have a fast car. If you have legendary armor, you´re sitting in a transformer or clan omnimech.

Doam.8305:

My main isn’t a Necro but I feel sorry for Necros…

If people are expecting ascended then Necro’s will even be more neglected

Like some else said if it needs ascended then it matter more about what classes you bring. So Zerker Zerk(No idea about warrior elite zerker being a meta but I just like typing Zerker Zerk) ascended only no Necro. Which I’ve never understood because this groups state Warr/Guard Zerk only yet still type no Necro.

Because people listen to some math computer geek gamer with a fancy you tube channel(Fun with Flags anyone?) who told them, probably a couple of years ago, that a necro does this and that X% badder than class X and so has to be shunned, avoided and shamed on all levels instead of listenig to their heart, their experience(come on people, do you really want to tell me you can´t do AC with a necro in the party? Who needs a training wheel now?) and their feeling of time(would we be already there if we had not kicked that necro instead of waiting for class X?).

It is indeed not entitlement that people don´t want to be discriminated. But take a look around here and you will see that a considerable number of raid supporters almost promote that not everyone will be able do the raids and that they are the chosen 2% with content just for them and pugs should step up or shut up. If you want to fight against discrimination of that kind, I am with you. In GW2, there are already people discriminating others everywhere. Wrong type of armor, unskilled, slow, these are all pariah fringe groups if they don´t create their own groups. You can´t change being clumsy or disabled, but nobody is interested in that kind of players from the start in this kind of duscussion, so discrimination starts at a much deeper level than gear checks already.

If I find someone that has a time problem and wants to avoid grinding for his armor, I just can´t think of a better word than entitlement at first. GuzziHero is neither disabled or lacks skills to make his armor, he just does not want to invest time into it bt still wants the armor. For me on the other hand, making a raid is a grind until I have legendary armor, then I can leave it behind until the next shinie appears. Anet is offering me no alternative to raiding to obtain legendary armor, so I have to deal with it or forget it. And anyone who has the same problem as OP could probably also look at it this way for the sake of not going nuts over it.^^

But how will you do a raid if you don´t have ascended? And how do you practice raiding when you have only such a limited amount of time? With that argument, raids are useless for you anyway as you surely won´t succeeed raiding on the first attempt, and probably not on the second or tenth attempt, so we´re back at the commitment to work out the armor problem to join a raid that you have limited time for. Therefore I suggested that you should stick with the time problem, it is so much more reliable than the other one.

But hey, if you just don´t want to grind ascended armor, I understand that. Why not just buy the materials and bite in the sore apple to level one crafter for your prefered armor, built it and get over with it? If you´re a shift worker, you probably can afford the cash to do that, because you can either put money on the table or grind the materials needed if you think you need it to succeed your desired content. I feel forced to do raids for other reasons, so we´re both screwed in a certain way by the same problem but from a different approach.

Hm, really? A fractal is likely shorter than a raid. And you said you could “probably” have time, so my energy aka commitment point still stands.

So still the right answer.

If you don´t have time to do fractals, how will you do raids? Stay with energy aka commitment instead of time, your argument is much better then.^^

DistantStatic.6098:

MashMash.1645:

It’s also 3 weeks till launch, and a lot is broken. Combine that with the rush job on druids, and it’s looking sketchy. Maybe it’ll be amazing and everything will be fine. /sarcasm

This is why you shouldn’t pre-order

Exactly. Preordering is basically telling everone that it is ok to charge for beta testing(which was free all the time) and that people are stupid enough to buy your stuff despite lack of knowlegde about content and! Information what you need for said content. The first thing still kind of surprised me, the second fact was only a sad confirmation of what I already knew from other electronical devices like mobiles..

Nobody is asking to know everything about every detail but a general sketch is not asked for too much if you ask me. And no “Soon” “When it is ready” “We´re so excited!” are not release dates, not even blurry ones, but simply a candy coated way for saying that what they had was neither sufficient nor attractive enough to not be hanged at the next tree.

What can you get out of TA Aether, Nike? Cosmetic stuff and the usual garbage opened by randomly dropping key parts and not the best armor available in the game.

That dungeon does not even appear on my radar anymore after completing it, but raids on the other hand will stay so long a theme for me until I get legendary armor, which is probably even more time consuming and a chore for me than wipping early in the TA dungeon in the first attempts.

Azumi.9572:

If you’re a Casual player, then you’ll have the same kind of end-game you’ve had since launch – World Bosses, Map/Event Farm, Karma Train, Low-Difficulty 80 Content (Dungeons, etc.) All Casual content geared toward Casual players.

Raids are different. They are geared toward another subset of players, but they are not exclusive. If a Casual player wants to play them, they can. Nothing stops a Guild of Casuals from Raiding.

And guess what? When you get bored of being a Casual player doing Casual content – Raids will be there for you.

Keep demanding they nerf it – and it won’t be.

Yes because if enough people demand it, it won´t happen. Like the added character slot to the basic edition did never happen, or the commander lamps were not reworked or…oh wait…

The funny thing is, OP, that you and your supporters show exactly the type of entitlement raiders are notorious for.

To quote the band Queen here:
“I want it all, I want it now!”

You want the shot of glory, instantly, now, pure. You are on the other hand unwilling to suffer through the pain a glory junky has: work, equipment check, work, practice, work. Do you think people that jump from sky scrappers, climb the K7 or do pearl diving without air tanks do that with their old equipment if new one is available? Of course you can continue to attempt to reach the deep sea with your trusty snorkle, but to give you a spoiler, it won´t work.

And speaking of fairness:
I find it to be gloriously fair that if I am forced to do raids if I want the shinies, you on the other hands are forced to make the grind to get an ascended armor if you don´t want to be shunned from your own brethen for being a lazy bum. Just because you don´t like it does not mean that there should be ways around it. That sentence sounds familiar to you? It´s the here often used argument to defend content exclusivity, just in the reverse direction.

I know this must be hard to swallow for you, but maybe not even everyone that has the time to do raids likes to do them too?
And even with that thought, I would not even have objected to the people that like raids if Anet had not broken the two things that kept casuals and hardcore people distant but not overly hostile to each other, availability by different methods and the all are equal and nobody is a gypsie thought.

It started with ls2 where you had to suffer through content over and over again or you just did not get the armor and the reward for it. No big deal at all you may say, there are other ascended pieces to obtain elsewise. Exactly, spot on. Give me the opportunity to get legendary armor in a different way than with raids and I´ll shut up and be a happy customer.

When you divide your playerbase into the able and disabled, aka accepted and barely tolerated people, you get the gypsie or refugee problem. Gypsies in Western and especially Eastern Europe stand in the highly questionable reputation of being thiefs, liars, con artists and even hired killers. The predisposition to these folks is so overwhelmingly negative that they could settle nowhere for long, even if they wanted so they travel from place to place like a circus.
Would you like to be treated like a gypsie in a game? I don´t know about you, but I would probably give up joining a society at some point and either stay just with my people(other casuals in their own guild), try to get away from the problem itself by changing my name and settle in the city that hated or just tolerated me some time ago(play different) or move away from my people and the other people to set up camp in a place where nobody dislikes me(leave the game).

The character slot debacle was a massive outcry. This here, hm, not so sure.

GuzziHero.2467:

Id have no issue with Ascended having the same stats as exotic PLUS infusions. Its the Exotic-plus that grinds my gears.

I guess that it was only a matter of time before they started making non-fractal Ascended-intended gear to truly force us players to craft or be excluded.

So I should have invested considerable amounts of money through materials into an armor I already have but with an extra slot? Who would build something like this at the current materials you need for it?

Your unwillingness to craft = my unwillingness to raid for legendary armor
Both things suck, both are rooted in the same problem, and we both have to somehow deal with it.

GuzziHero.2467:

So basically another thing that makes their word about Exotic being final tier gear and usable for all content into more of a lie.

I hope in the actual raid, Ascended is provided (if only for that instance), or basically it means that they are excluding a lot of players who don’t have Ascended.

You really made my day, thank you for that. This totally counters any ideas of
“I earned it the hard way "
elitism with
“Oh my, I have no ascended because I was too lazy/occupied/unwilling to get it. Please Anet, give me ascended armor while I raid. Because, you know, raiding is funny, but dying because I did not keep up is not.”
in just a simple sentence.

This is a little bit like the financial crisis here. Bankers of course wanted the money, but came tugged with their tails between the legs to the governments when they blew it colossaly and begged, yes BEGGED for help because their empire was seriously crumbling and they had no reserves to weather out the crisis.

Drow.2081:

I hate Steam. I hate what they did with Skyrim for PC. I don’t want a world where I cannot shop at GameStop. I like those mall employees. I like seeing Americans have a job. I don’t like monopolies. Their Steam Fortress and reduced prices seduced you. You don’t see them as a mega corp taking over and making citizens jobless.

+1.

Replace Americans with people around the globe and it would be even better. Sadly, Valve is not even the worst offender in the general category of the new world order of mega corporation, it´s not even close to the worst offenders.

Tipper.6973:

Azumi.9572:

Casuals strikes again.

Raid players beware. They are applying pressure on Raids already.

aNet will break.

The thing is, I barely see ANY players calling for nerfs??

Currently there are like 3+ threads on this forum begging for a difficulty increase. What is going on?

You probably enlarged the wrong word. Probably you won´t see them because the majority of people asking for easy mobs are not on forums min-maxing or bickering like we do, but give feedback directly by ticket or with likes dislikes or something like that while they sit in the train or something like that.

sharkswithlazers.7632:

I agree with this. If raiding was easy, we’d just have another dungeon. It’d be a loot train (which they’d have to nerf because of the economy). I want there to be content that pushes my limits as a player. That’s fun. It’s like pvp, wvw and pve. As it stands, I never do wvw (not for any particular reason save for me not liking the idea of just running around in a zerg). That content isn’t exclusive. I’m not prohibited from playing, I just choose not to. Likewise, if I had a choice in fractals, I’d never do Mai Trin or Ice Ele. The mechanics in those fights were very poorly designed and they punish you for playing correctly. Some people like that it’s hard. But I wouldn’t ask them to remove content that I don’t personally enjoy. I have never asked anet to remove wvw bc zergs aren’t according to my tastes. Likewise, raids should be left difficult. There’s plenty to do in this game and each facet doesn’t appeal to everyone.

Just because you probably use the exploit with Ellen Kiel to make it a faceroll, the actuall mechanic of Mai Trin is for skilled players(dodges, field uses, rather hard opponent). If you want to complain about something, think about the endboss in the Ice Fractal or the lets hide in a corner stuff of the aether fractal, which is ridiculusly easy to make even if you´re new to it.

Lol, I love it. Although I sometimes think that I am looking at an old episode of Punk´d from MTV when entering here.

People really have the opinion that the most versatile and best reward should be gated by a hard raid, but flip out if they have to level crafters for ascended armor. Where is your effort should be rewarded mantra here?
People think it is ok when massive quantities of people are locked out of said content by time/skill restrains. You can only hope that you are snowflakey enough to be within the ranks of those who can do the raid, or you will find yourself sitting in the last row of the bus seats.
People think that losing your job is a chance first, not something you are depended upon if you´re not an investment banker, politician or something like that. That only barely needs an explanation, at least that is what I hope.

Bee.7081:

Please, change the difficulty back to where it was. Now it is just a walk in the park.
If you have made it easier because there were some crying about them being hard, are you going to nerf the difficulty of upcoming raids too?!

This is lvl 80 content… at least make the mobs as hard as they are on Cursed Shore… This is not Queensdale!

Wow, mobs are weaker than the mobs in Cursed Shore? That would be sad, really.

Kevan.8912:

@torolan
If ascended is not mandatory and there’s not any elitism ingame…just make ascended and legendaries SKINS…with the same slots and stats Exotic have.

You probably guessed it, I am not that big of a fan of raids. I have ascended armor because i had nothing better to do then and it bugged me somehow to stay on exotc if another tier of gear was there. But if Anet decides tomorrow that there is only one suit fits all build and equipment for a given class, I would be ok with that because it is one of the few ways to really separate skill from equipment or youtube video learning. And on top of that, I could leave themes like elitism, fairness in games and raids in general behind me. So you´re bashing in open doors with me with that suggestion.^^

Edit:
I have ascended gear on 4 characters, pope. It just bugs me that Anet has the audacity to put a type of gear of the same stats as ascended but with much broader means of use because you can change said stats as you need them behind a content that I not only personally loathe (which is of course a motivation to write here too, I don´t even start to deny that) but also because of my perception of it being poisonous for games for the lack of fairness involved with casual players and the resulting two class society.
As stated above, I woiuld also be ok with a general suit of armor for everyone, but I know that this won´t happen.

PopeUrban.2578:

Torolan.5816:

PopeUrban.2578:

Torolan.5816:

SNIEVES.3964:

making it a requirement to have assendd gear/celestial would not be fair to all players because not everyone has kitten armor , it sextremly expensive and takes long to gather, and would not be fair that a small percentage of the gaming community can do raids where a larger portions can not enjoy raiding

It is not, at least not in my opinion, fair. Of course that does not stop other players from demanding it to be that way.

Even before this whole thing with ascended came up, people upright demanded that not everyone should be able to complete the raid. Which better way of excluding people that are not entirely commited to the exclusive content could there be than to make a commitment, aka a grind barrier? Working as intended for the hardcore raiders I guess, mission accomplished by Anet.

If there is any challenge whatsoever in a video game, it will by its very nature exclude some part of the population through virtue of player ability, free time, or patience.

Queen’s gauntlet excluded a bunch of people. So do dungeons. So do fractals. SO does grinding out the massive pile of stuff required to get silverwastes armor. So do WvW seasonal skins. So the the PvP balthazar pack. So do the world champion finishers.

The only way to be sure that a given piece of content excludes no one is to simply not make them play content in the first place. There are varying levels of exclusion in video games, commonly based on a simply risk/reward metric. Raids are a small part of HoT intended for a portion of the player base that wanted higher risks for higher rewards.

How is the statement that Raids are intended for a small portion of players negating the opinion that it is unfair by default to exclude all the other players who want higher rewards too but are not good or connected enough to get them? Just because you consider it challenging does not negate it, neither does that other content has barriers of entry too.

This is actually the first time Anet sets their highest rewards behind a really exclusive wall. Every moron can farm his way through low level fractals until he has enough relicts to buy stuff to rise in level and stay competitive with agony. The same with wvw and pvp, if you are willing to eat dirt over and over again because you suck at GW2, you still will get everything Hardcore Hans has too over time.
If you don´t cut it with raids, legendary armor for example stays exclusive and unbuyable, you´re screwed for life or at least have to wait until someone begins to sell raids.

So why are not only skins to obtain from raids? Because the number of players willing to do them then would probably in a really low % range then, and Anet probably does not want their raids to be seen only by a handful of people like Aetherpath before it.

• Fractal weapons
• World Champion Finishers
• Queen’s Gambit

Legendaries are not more powerful than ascended. You don’t have to be hardcore Hans to acquire ascended. You also don’t need Ascended gear to attempt raids.

*Skin
*Finisher
*Title
yawn, snorkle and dubbdidoo. Nothing is really of any nongloating consequence for the game. I would trade you my fractals skins for legendary armor any day, although i have to admit that this is personal preference of course.

You indeed don´t have to be Hardcore Hans to obtain ascended, I even applaud Anet for anchoring the thought of Ascended is mandatory into the heads of the players as this means that equipment elitism will rule even more than usual and the cycle of neglected content, with the latest being raids, will begin again.

PopeUrban.2578:

Torolan.5816:

SNIEVES.3964:

making it a requirement to have assendd gear/celestial would not be fair to all players because not everyone has kitten armor , it sextremly expensive and takes long to gather, and would not be fair that a small percentage of the gaming community can do raids where a larger portions can not enjoy raiding

It is not, at least not in my opinion, fair. Of course that does not stop other players from demanding it to be that way.

Even before this whole thing with ascended came up, people upright demanded that not everyone should be able to complete the raid. Which better way of excluding people that are not entirely commited to the exclusive content could there be than to make a commitment, aka a grind barrier? Working as intended for the hardcore raiders I guess, mission accomplished by Anet.

If there is any challenge whatsoever in a video game, it will by its very nature exclude some part of the population through virtue of player ability, free time, or patience.

Queen’s gauntlet excluded a bunch of people. So do dungeons. So do fractals. SO does grinding out the massive pile of stuff required to get silverwastes armor. So do WvW seasonal skins. So the the PvP balthazar pack. So do the world champion finishers.

The only way to be sure that a given piece of content excludes no one is to simply not make them play content in the first place. There are varying levels of exclusion in video games, commonly based on a simply risk/reward metric. Raids are a small part of HoT intended for a portion of the player base that wanted higher risks for higher rewards.

How is the statement that Raids are intended for a small portion of players negating the opinion that it is unfair by default to exclude all the other players who want higher rewards too but are not good or connected enough to get them? Just because you consider it challenging does not negate it, neither does that other content has barriers of entry too.

This is actually the first time Anet sets their highest rewards behind a really exclusive wall. Every moron can farm his way through low level fractals until he has enough relicts to buy stuff to rise in level and stay competitive with agony. The same with wvw and pvp, if you are willing to eat dirt over and over again because you suck at GW2, you still will get everything Hardcore Hans has too over time.
If you don´t cut it with raids, legendary armor for example stays exclusive and unbuyable, you´re screwed for life or at least have to wait until someone begins to sell raids.

So why are not only skins to obtain from raids? Because the number of players willing to do them then would probably in a really low % range then, and Anet probably does not want their raids to be seen only by a handful of people like Aetherpath before it.

SNIEVES.3964:

making it a requirement to have assendd gear/celestial would not be fair to all players because not everyone has kitten armor , it sextremly expensive and takes long to gather, and would not be fair that a small percentage of the gaming community can do raids where a larger portions can not enjoy raiding

It is not, at least not in my opinion, fair. Of course that does not stop other players from demanding it to be that way.

Even before this whole thing with ascended came up, people upright demanded that not everyone should be able to complete the raid. Which better way of excluding people that are not entirely commited to the exclusive content could there be than to make a commitment, aka a grind barrier? Working as intended for the hardcore raiders I guess, mission accomplished by Anet.

Blaeys.3102:

TLDR –
relying on stats to provide the illusion of difficulty is just that – an illusion – it sets up unnecessary barriers for friends wanting to raid together and it encourages lazy fight design.

Important note – I write this having multiple (6+) full sets of ascended gear in my bags. This has little impact on my personal ability to raid. However, I know many highly skilled players who, for whatever reason, do not (most common is that they do not enjoy crafting). They may have, at best, one set – but what happens when we need to theory craft and we need someone with tankier or more support based stats?

I will need those people (those FRIENDS) to fill out raid groups when the content drops. An arbitrary gear grind shouldnt diminish our ability to raid.

That´s your friends personal problem. They should adapt, gear up, form their own parties with you as leader because you have the necessary stats and so are bestest(not only the best, but bestest!) by default, or get out. People will gladly take their salvageable stuff when they leave because they lack the backbone of commiting time and ressources into ascended gear.

Sounds harsh, elitist and unfair to you? Welcome in the world of the casual gamer with RL responsibilities or lacking the will to make GW2 more than a way to spend time with, friend.^^

Nice attempt to coax more peple in content you like, OP. Like the effort, not the idea, still good attempt.^^

Neox.3497:

“Nonsense”. Have you ever thought about a meta that isn’t so strict?

The current dungeon meta (zerk meta) is about saving time, the new raid meta will be about completing the raid.

There will of course be a pro raid meta at some point which focuses on the time. However the most IMPORANT for casuals will be COMPLETING the raid. Thus MOST players will be using the casual raid meta.

Remember that raid-loot will be on a weekly lock-out and the devs said it will be really hard to complete. Do you really think casuals will try to go for the best time? REALLY? They won’t CARE if it takes 40 or 60 minutes as long as they are able to even FINISH it. Unlike dungeons that you farm as fast as possible since it’s easy as f***.

There will problably be different kind of ways to complete the content (multiple casual metas = “the not so strict casual meta”). And casuals will use the one that is available to them depending on their professions and equipment they have or maybe even create a mix of them.

Also it’s not really the meta that will be more strict it’s the CONTENT that is more strict!

/Edit: I replaced “pub” with “casual”. That’s a better wording.

I put the word strict into it because I kind of was expecting that someone would come out and defend the idea that you can´t complete it if you don´t field class X that can do Y in rolle Z instead of class A that can do B in rolle Z with inferior but still comparable and sufficient results. This was, is, and always will be nonsense. To stay with my example, you can travel to space by rocket, shuttle or capsule right now. One method is vastly superior to the other two, but that does in no way mean that it is impossible to lift off if you don´t have a shuttle. If the needed % to make it is 85%, and you break that barrier with 85%, you made it as good as the guys who broke it with 99%. Even better if you are looking for skill and determination alone.

I agree with you that it will probably be impossible to complete a raid with 10 nomad geared guardians if people don´t work in shifts with them. Groups like this are unable to break the lowest barrier if they don´t stack any available circumstances in their favor.
I also agree that people have to fill roles to defeat a given mechanism.

ScribeTheMad.7614:

I don’t have any, because for years I’ve been told I would never need it outside fractals
And now I’m expected to have it for content outside fractals.
How can anyone possibly be surprised that some of us feel lied to?

On that promise I’ve planned for years to make legendary instead of ascended if I was going to put in that kind of grind, and now that’s not going to be possible.
I’ll have to grind ascended, drop hundreds of gold and mats, to be able to work on legendary.
That’s starting to look an awful lot like a treadmill.
So we have to grind ascended if we want to get to legendary, whats next? The next raid will introduce a progressing Agony grind?
I’ve always been fine with needing to grind for some cosmetic stuff, like legendary weapons.
But would it make sense to have to grind out a full set of ascended weapons before you could work on a legendary?
I cannot fathom why people think it’s okay to have to grind out ascended stats before we can get legendary skins.

Am I the only one who’s noticed that the ascended gap bump to 10% they were going to do until the leak would have made this even worse?
Were would we be if we’d all just rolled over for them?

How can you on the other hand be surprised that just that you support raids means that everything is going to be fine and tailor made for you with them?
I want legendary armor so I have to deal with the chore off making raids. Am I angry because I have to bend over now? Sure.
You wanted the raid and are now realizing that you may have to bend over too. As much tough luck for you as tough luck for me now.

Nobody is a winner here, but you probably can´t dispute the fairness of the situation.

And by the way, isn´t that the mantra of the raid crowd anyway, harden the …. up? The revolution eating up it´s children?

EdwinLi.1284:

Unless they already have a new character ready to replace Trehearne as the Pact Leader I doubt he will ever die. Maybe become less important, making only small appearances here and there when the Pact is involved, as the story become more focused on Destiny Edge and Destiny Edge 2.0 but that about it for my expectations.

Player character can’t become the Pact Leader due to being a member of one of the three Orders not to mention the Lore reason why the Player character can be adventuring, PvPing, and WvWing is because all the time consuming task goes to the Pact Leader which is Trehearne.

A Member of Destiny Edge and Destiny Edge 2.0 are too whiny for my taste to be a Pact Leader. I still haven’t forgotten how Destiny Edge constantly argued like children in the Dungeon Storyline. They also have their own personal issues in their Nations which they often do get involved with. Destiny Edge 2.0 are not as experienced as Destiny Edge and current they’re always being lead to important places by this “E” person, or persons.

As for another character taking Trehearne’s place well you know what they say “be careful what you wish for” because Anet may just put a NPC with a far more hateable personailty as the new Pact Leader.

Not to forget that the Destiny´s Edge group consist of an official traitor and turncoat, a mad smurf scientist, an isolationist with a family problem, a hotheaded xenophobic kitty and a naive salad traitor girl.

I would not trust one of them to get my laundry, not to speak of a makeshift army.

ArchonWing.9480:

This is all part of the new plan for Anet to solve all the complaints about population imbalance.

When there are coverage gaps, Anet will form their own zerg and PvDoor as needed to balance the matchup.

Enter the new super champion “Here comes Johnny”, a supertough and hard hitting champ that will effortlessly bash your door in with a hatchet, smile and look menacingly at everyone in the keep in a short movie sequence.^^

Zania.8461:

Eldbrand Charging.8902:

Anyone asking me for a GW2effiiency link will be reported, NO ONE should be able to keep another player from certain content because they refuse to use 3 party programs.

You always have an option of finding a raid with someone who does not have such requirement. Your report will not be taken seriously as the raid leader does not have obligation to accept everyone in his or her raid.

So the raid leader is the official master and commander of a raid group? Nice!^^

PopeUrban.2578:

Torolan.5816:

lordkrall.7241:

Torolan.5816:

Maybe because it is a game and not the olympics?
Maybe because Anet needs many people to play GW2 and buy items in their shop, not a wasteland with a few really skilled people?
Maybe because it is fair?
Maybe because second class players are first unhappy and then former players?

But just go on with that arguments please. It argues much better for my points than I ever could.

So because about 1% of the game is too hard for some people to do the game suddenly turns from a game to the olympics?

Raids is a single VERY minor part of the game. The vast majority of the content will still be fully possible to do for everyone.

Fair? So someone that plays for 10 minutes a day should have the exact same things as someone that plays 10 hours a day? Why should anyone bother playing any more than 10 minutes a day if everything could just be done and accessed with that time?

Well, basically yes? I can run, shoot a bow, ride a bike and swim, but will never be called into the olympics or even the national respective championship team, so I have not made a career out of either. So why should I continue to play GW2 at all if it is already set in stone that I will never reach the best stuff and content if my time schedule does not change and I personally change from average sportsman to world class athlete?

As you see, this is your argument turned around. Both views are possibly right from a certain angle. The important part is probably how raids will sell, as it is the case with almost everything that is produced by a company.

You, on the other hand, seem to expect that by shooting a bow you should also be admitted to world class archery tournaments, because if you can’t be admitted to those tournaments… then there isn’t any point just shooting targets out back.

So, I mean really, are you shooting that bow because it’s fun, or because you want a gold medal? Sounds to me you’re more worried about the medal than just having fun shooting the bow.

I can ride a horse. I enjoy riding a horse. I also don’t need to ride a horse in the flippin’ kentucky derby to enjoy riding my horse.

The funny thing is, I own both world class horses and bows(ascended armor and weapons) right now. I am indeed worried about the medal(legendary armor), and would not touch raids with a pole elsewise.

Now imagine that my position is maybe the majority position, or a large minority, or just a noticeable minority. Why and who would you open that can of worms in the first place? You would open it only if you are sure that raiders are such an overwhelmnig majority that it pays off in the end, or that they are so loud and the luminiation of raids is so high that they can reel in people that were not sure if they wanted to join or not. If you now raise the requirements in term of high quality time gated equpiment, you take the ability of raiders to pull people with them, thereby lowering the chances of the exclusive ccontent even more. Even if people begin to buld more ascended armor, raiders likely don´t want to wait for so long and leave again.

It´s a glorious self bitting system in my eyes.

lordkrall.7241:

Torolan.5816:

Maybe because it is a game and not the olympics?
Maybe because Anet needs many people to play GW2 and buy items in their shop, not a wasteland with a few really skilled people?
Maybe because it is fair?
Maybe because second class players are first unhappy and then former players?

But just go on with that arguments please. It argues much better for my points than I ever could.

So because about 1% of the game is too hard for some people to do the game suddenly turns from a game to the olympics?

Raids is a single VERY minor part of the game. The vast majority of the content will still be fully possible to do for everyone.

Fair? So someone that plays for 10 minutes a day should have the exact same things as someone that plays 10 hours a day? Why should anyone bother playing any more than 10 minutes a day if everything could just be done and accessed with that time?

Well, basically yes? I can run, shoot a bow, ride a bike and swim, but will never be called into the olympics or even the national respective championship team, so I have not made a career out of either. So why should I continue to play GW2 at all if it is already set in stone that I will never reach the best stuff and content if my time schedule does not change and I personally change from average sportsman to world class athlete?

As you see, this is your argument turned around. Both views are possibly right from a certain angle. The important part is probably how raids will sell, as it is the case with almost everything that is produced by a company.

lordkrall.7241:

Torolan.5816:

After reading stuff like this: Are you still excited about raids, casual player community? Ready to add work after coming from actual work? Exciting times!^^

Why does everything have to be doable by everyone?

Maybe because it is a game and not the olympics?
Maybe because Anet needs many people to play GW2 and buy items in their shop, not a wasteland with a few really skilled people?
Maybe because it is fair?
Maybe because second class players are first unhappy and then former players?

But just go on with that arguments please. It argues much better for my points than I ever could.

lordkrall.7241:

irrumatio.4893:

I worry that elitists will demand FULL ASCENDED ARMOR when in reality the benefit of adding ascended armor (to someone with ascended weapon and trinkets) is <2% damage output.

Source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/159ml1oahEyM6zWQ-oD4XQcHsk1mI5G6tVnjk_FOeinA/edit?pli=1#gid=348011649

I am not really sure that raids were ever supposed to be pugable anyway.

After reading stuff like this: Are you still excited about raids, casual player community? Ready to add work after coming from actual work? Exciting times!^^

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I will say that if the encounters are tuned so finely that you need ascended gear to complete them then Anet’s raids are a failure before they even launch.

The terrible PvP focused balanced that has plagued PvE since launch is MUCH MUCH wider than the 12% dps difference between exotic and ascended.

The presence of 2 PS warriors in a group makes a 20% difference alone. That means 2 PS warriors will be required in every raid since that is more important than the stat difference.

Ele’s outdamage Necros/Rangers by ~20% DPS, if the encounters are tuned so finely that 12% gear difference is make or break then Ranger’s and Necro’s will have 0 chance of getting into raids.

Either balance needs to be redone or these raids are doomed from the get go.

Is that even a realistic option in the Bizarro Land of Minmax right now, rangers and necros in group content?

I already kind of sensed that raids will begin to eat their children very soon in the trinity thread, and this is the proof. Hillarious, really .^^