Guild Wars 2

KirinDave.6451:

Penguin.5197:

Engineer
The Engineer is a highly versatile class. While it doesn’t have the long range capabilities of the Ranger, or the melee capabilities of the Warrior or Guardian, they are comfortable at medium ranges in most fights. They have a lot of control, and use their boons to keep themselves (and allies) alive in a fight. They can use different kits based on the situation, but this extreme versatility comes at a cost in damage on their main hand weapons.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012

Its on second post. Man I don’t know what to think of kits anymore. Considering we still give up a utility slot I thought that was a price enough for “versatility”

I don’t understand it either. Because it’s not the case that the engineer can hybridize in mid-fight, so it’s in exactly the same boat as the Elementalist: you pick what you want to be at the start of the fight (in the Ele’s case, it’s staff vs Scep+? vs Dagger+?).

So why exactly does Engineer get a hybrid tax at all? Itemization is fixed. Maybe the engineers could get armor swap abilities?

As far as I can tell, the Engineer is a failed design concept. The idea of a mid-fight hybrid class is a really neat one, but mechanically very challenging to pull off. Of all the classes, Anet seems to have the least idea what to do with the Engineer. It’s clear they’ve hit their stride with the warrior, guardian, elementalist, thief, and they’re dialing in the Necromancer (this terror change is a great change) and ranger.

But the Engineer is basically a broken class right now. I think it’s one of those classes Anet envisioned having a high skill cap, but they haven’t figured out a way to do it that doesn’t break the game or fit into the existing framework.

The real problem is, they made all the classes versatile, then decided to make a class that specialized in being versatile. What’s the point?

You have a class like the Elementalist where they purposefully made 4 attunements work with each other. With the Engineer, we just have random kits. They don’t offer the same synergy that attunements do. We basically just have a bunch of different weapons thrown together haphazardly. It’s not a great way to build a class.

It’s like the devs just wanted to put a flamethrower in the game, so they tacked it on. They wanted to put grenades in, so they tacked it on… but they didn’t make sure all of these things worked together; certainly not in the same way that they did for Attunements, Virtues, Initiative, or Shatter.

Perhaps that’s the answer. Perhaps we need a central mechanic around which all builds would function. “Kits” aren’t actually a mechanic in and of themselves, after all. Perhaps we need something along the lines of Adrenaline or Initiative, where regardless of what kit we’re using, are always working to build a certain resource up. Perhaps we could have “ammunition,” or something of that sort.

That would at least tie all these random kits in with each other. If each of our abilities worked towards a central mechanic, this hodge-podge list of skills might gain some synergy. It might give the devs a clear focus for the class, too, because right now the Engineer has no idea what it wants to be.

-Travail.

Wasdclick.1764:

Versatility is about more than just putting kits on your skill bar.

It’s about seeing a situation, and adapting to it. Going to a dungeon with some friends? Bring out the Elixir Gun. Need to protect some points in sPvP? Pistol/Shield, mine, elixir S, and a Rocket Turret sitting behind you will make for some great coverage.

I’d like to be a pure DPSer at some point, maybe… But honestly, we have so many special effects coming off all our skill that we don’t need to be all about damage.

It’s like being a */Devices Blaster in CoH, or a Controller… Or a Shaman in WoW. An Engineer in Team Fortress 2… We have a set-up time, and we don’t have the sheer kill power of other classes. But we make up for it by having intelligent solutions for every challenge. A little more effort, a little more time, but for a job done to perfection.

The thing is, we don’t make up for it. I’ve never seen a group request an Engineer, but I have seen plenty of groups groan about having to “carry” Engineers. the bottom line is, it’s better to support a little while dealing heavy damage than it is to support a lot while dealing very mediocre damage.

In PvP, it’s better to either specialize fully into a bunker build, or a spike damage build. The kind of “support” you’re talking about doesn’t really have a place in the game right now, and it never will. It would take a fundamental redesign of both dungeons and PvP for that to happen.

-Travail.

DreamOfACure.4382:

I’ll give you 3.

Flamethrower + Ice sigil for 1) Irony.

Bomb kit + Fire sigil for 2) Better Explosions.

And… a post confirming that kits will eventually scale with weapon-damage.

Step two is to get the weapon stats to apply to kits as well. We felt sigils was the more important first step because it creates build diversity. Flamethrower with sigil of air? Yes please.

What he doesn’t say is that nerfing Grenades is necessary for game-health between the engineer kits. Nades being higher DPS in all ranges is no fun for other engies.

Well, at least some Engi’s were having fun before.

If it’s no fun for other Engi’s to be overshadowed by Grenadiers.. then buff the other kits. Grenades weren’t overpowered, so they shouldn’t have been nerfed. Period.

-Travail.

You can have a second weapon the day the Engineer can equip 8 kits without using up a single utility slot.

That is all.

-Travail.

Wait just a minute here…. I read a little further down…

We see the elementalist as the king of versatility. The skill ceiling for the Ele is exceptional, as the ability to leverage all four attunements at the right time is crucial for understanding the elemetnalist. The Ele boasts some of the best team support and control abilities in the game, as well as some great area of effect damage.

So… we get a hybrid tax in exchange for our versatility, while the Elementalist is touted as the “King” of versatility (ie., better than us) and doesn’t have to suffer any nerfs?

That’s just too much.

Yeah, when kits take up a spot which could be used for a buff, or a stun breaker, or an escape tool….

We pay for our versatility plenty without an intentional nerf to our damage output compared to other classes.

Furthermore, we are not more versatile than any other class. That assertion is simply not true. How are we more versatile than an Elementalist, who can run with the equivalent of 4 kits (attunements) and 3 stun breakers (cantrips)?

It’s not like Engineers can spec both into healing AND damage at the same time, or damage AND tanking… so how are we “more” versatile than other classes? What is the sense of giving only one class a hybrid tax when EVERY CLASS is a hybrid, and can make hybrid specs just as good as any of ours?

All I can say after reading this incite into the developers design philosophy is, I’m glad this game doesn’t charge a monthly fee. I’ve already paid the purchase price, but no way would I continue to sub monthly knowing that the devs actually buy into the concept of a hybrid tax.

-Travail.

It definitely irks me that they apparently prioritized nerfing grenades over buffing the FT. Grenades didn’t “need” balancing. They were good, but they weren’t exactly making us a FoTM class or anything. There was no reason to be spending time looking at grenades when something like the FT is obviously in need of some love.

It basically tells us that the devs were more worried about the grenade kit “possibly, maybe” being “slightly” overpowered, than they were about fixing everything about this class that’s underpowered.

I don’t mind nerfs. I’m not one of those people who take the Grover Norquist-esque “never nerf, ever” approach to game balance. But, if they’re going to nerf the only real viable DPS-ish spec we had, they probably shouldn’t do that until they buff our other skills to the point where we have options.

-Travail.

Whoa, 30%? Like.. three-zero?

That probably translates to a 15-20% nerf, taking into account what was added in the patch. That’s unfortunate. Grenades were better than any kit we had for DPS, but they weren’t better than other professions. This change likely brings them in line with other Engineer kits, which unfortunately are sub-par compared to other classes.

I though ANet wasn’t making “big changes” all in one patch? What happened to smaller changes over time?

-Travail.

Coltz.5617:

I would be really happy with a much better version of elixer U with increased reliability and benefit to justify its major sideeffects.

Change the Kit refinement for Medkit would be awesome as well. That backfire is getting annoying. More useless than the jagged horrors on necros.

I’d like to see the kit refinement on Medkit either drop a random item from the kit (bandage/antidote/stimulant), or even just a bandage. At least that would fit the theme of the kit; that tiny explosion is just so out of place for a support kit. If they keep the explosion, I think it should cripple, knockback, or chill. Any of those would have synergy with the kit, since you are usually kiting around while using it.

The only change I’d like to see to Elixir U is to have the utility belt skill changed to an AoE that does one of the following (not all, just one):

- cures immobilize/chill/cripple.
- breaks stuns.
- grants stability.

Because kits take up utility slots (and not, say, our “offhand” slot) we have limited room for stun breakers in PvP. We are often forced to make a choice between either Elixir U or a stun breaker in PvP; and stun breakers easily win out. We need to be able to slot Elixir U into a build without completely losing our ability to break stuns in PvP, because currently every PvP build needs a stun breaker (or several) to be effective. This becomes even more true when we are taking such heavy penalties while under the effects of Elixir U.

Plus, the wall is lackluster and unreliable, and has no synergy with Elixir U. Curing movement impairing effects fits the “speedy” theme of the Elixir.

-Travail.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

my take on an improvement would be pretty brutal I guess:

-) cut the waypoint-ressing in this big events
-) the area is cut off from the rest of the world when the event starts
-) everyone can participate, but once you die you stay dead until someone resses you during the fight

In my opinion the absence of graveyard/waypoint-rushing a boss in the fractals greatly improved the experience in comparison to early-dungeon mechanics.

this would lead to huge wipes and a lot of dead people lying around and waiting for a resurrection, but the positive part: the group gets smaller and smaller and the event suddenly much more interesting. Only really good players stay alive and beat the encounter – or you get ressed.

It’s brutal, but it’s also a challenge – shouldn’t be the high level zones be all about challenge? A developer once said that if you want to experience harder content, just look for higher level mobs / areas. But what if you are 80 already, where to look now if not in the lv.80 area?

Yes, dungeons are much more difficult and I could look there, but what if I don’t have 4 other people to play with? Or what if I want difficult content in high-level zones? The events there would allow this… but not for too big groups currently imho.

No waypoint rezzing is a good idea. I’m not sure cutting off the event from the rest of the world would be a positive change. I wouldn’t want a random person to get impatient and run in to tag the boss, while we knew other players were still on their way to the event.

Allow anyone who happens by to join in, but prevent anyone who chooses to rez at a waypoint from returning. Once you leave, you no longer get credit for the event. That way, dead players can choose to leave and go do something else if they get tired of waiting for the event to finish.

If everyone dies, the event resets and you can all waypoint rez and start over.

-Travail.

Lorana.2468:

the system is fine the way it is, Universal Tokens even at a reduced rate of exchange would be terrible

and you can use tokens for other things as opposed to gearing yourself, like salvaging for ecto’s or throwing weapons into the forge for a free gamble at a precursor.

I’m not sure the system is “fine” the way it is, but a system of universal tokens could create more problems than it solves in GW2. You’d have to be very careful about how you handle the exchange rate.

You’d have to consider not only the difference between dungeon completion times, but also LFG wait times. If the shorter dungeon becomes so popular that you can get a group within 5 minutes, but the longer dungeons have a 30 minute wait, you’d just added 25 minutes onto the longer dungeon run.

If they were going to implement a token exchange, the best way to do it would be to have a system where the tokens from each dungeon have different exchange rates. The longest dungeons could be exchanged at a rate of 1:1, while shorter dungeons would require reduced rates, based on their relative average completion time + average LFG wait time. It would be a lot of work to get that balance right, and potentially game breaking to get it wrong.

-Travail.

That’s a good elementalist video, but there are problems with that one, too.

There are many times when every cantrip is on cooldown, but no one is CCing the Elementalist. With that many players around, that player should have died 10 times over. Especially if anyone had bothered to chase the them down when they ran away. Half the reason that video seems so epic is because they allowed the elementalist to escape and heal up, over and over again.

Now, the Engineer build from this thread in that situation would be in an even worse position, sure. All I’m saying is, that build shouldn’t have been able to do what that Elementalist was doing. Player skill -or lackthereof from the opponents- won the day, not necessarily the build itself.

When the strength of the build itself isn’t the reason for the epic PvP video, it’s hard to use that video to justify buffs to your own class. I do agree that either the Engineer needs some love, or they need to say that this class is balanced, and proceed to bring some of the specs from other classes down to our level. Since the community generally doesn’t like nerfs, it should probably be the former.

-Travail.

lothefallen.7081:

But all professions that don’t have a knockback like guard or a tele / movement skill like ele or thief…people just want that because without it, they are fundamentally disadvantaged in almost all situations. Im saying, if that’s what it comes too, i’d just rather have revive numbers adjusted, downstate gutted, and healing playing a bigger role in support rather than just regen, protection, homogenization.

I agree. I’ve never felt like the downed state brings anything worthwhile to the table (it’s more of a mechanic for trolling the other team after they kill you than anything, IMO) and the extra class balance hassle just isn’t worth it.

It might be better if we could pick our downed state abilities. Sure, the Engineer’s big blast is great in group play, but our downed abilities are useless when we don’t have a full team backing us up. It would be nice if I could choose a different #3, instead of the big blast, when I knew I was going to be flying solo most of the time.

-Travail.

Med Kit is good when you spec the right way, or have the right utilities. Med Kit with Elixir S is pretty powerful. Overall, though, I’d say Elixir H is more generally useful in most builds. The potential to proc two protections beats anything the Med Kit can do without Elixir S to back it up. Plus, it doesn’t take nearly as long to pop Elixir H and get right back into the fight.

Not that it matters much. Our best “healing skill” is the Elixir Gun. I haven’t taken that thing off my bar since I got it. I keep the Med Kit on my bar just for the sprint/fury, and use the EG+Kit Refinement+Healing Mist for all my healing needs.

-Travail.

I thought of something else I’d like to see added to the Engineer class. I’d like to see us able to equip a single kit in the “second weapon” slot most classes get.

This would only apply to kits, no other utility skills could be placed in that slot. Also, you wouldn’t have access to the toolbelt skill for that kit. This would basically make one of our kits a true second weapon for us, and then allow us to build our utilities around both our default weapon, and that one kit. I feel it would bring more parity between the Engineer and other classes if we had a true second weapon.

This would give us access to the Sigils which apply “on weapon switch,” and would also allow us to use 3 turrets + the Toolkit, which is something I mentioned earlier that I’d like to see.

edit: Oh, and for the record, I’m ALWAYS in favor of dual shields. I think the last time I could equip a character with dual shields was Phantasy Star IV. ;P

-Travail.

1) They need to look at turrets. The targeting, damage scaling, health, cooldowns, the amount healed by the wrench, everything about them needs to be looked at, really.

I’d also like to see a way for us to use 3 turrets at once, instead of 2 turrets and the Toolkit. Perhaps offer the wrench as an equipped weapon, or allow us to equip maces and trait them to heal turrets, or something.

there also needs to be some sort of stun breaker with turrets, or some way to grant stability. I mean, you are forced to remain near your turrets, after all. We need a way to not be such an easy target while remaining relatively stationary beside our turrets.

2) Thrown elixers underwater. Ground targeting for every class while underwater needs to be addressed. For the Engineer, this could be as simple as changing the action of throwing the elixer to simply applying the elixers effect in a radius around your character. That’s a simple solution which, while not perfect, at least makes these abilities usable and reliable.

3) Random buffs. Hate ‘em. I’d rather them reduce the strength of these buffs, but make them more reliable. Same with the “summon a random wall” effect of Toss Elixir U. Walls in general aren’t very good to begin with, and the randomness doesn’t help. At least make it a guarantee that it will stop projectiles (2 of the 3 do that already) so I know at least one of the effects I’m getting out of the ability.

-Travail.