Guild Wars 2

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

This paragraph is just absurd. Have you even looked at the mechanics of what needs to be used to do what you suggest? It is a lot of investment. You are looking at your runes, one or more traits and your food for WvW, so its 40% less effective in PvP.

These things are called counters.

A lot of what you say here is simply not true.

His statement isn’t absurd. Hoelbrak runes and traits, which reduce duration soft cc, are not as rare as you might think. And will be even more common with HoT. It is a strong combination, worth the investment for many players.

(Hoelbrak is currently overshadowed by vampirism rune, which can counter the root too btw, but was the most used rune in pvp before and will probably become it again after the vamp nerf)

mistsim.2748:

doesn’t ancient seed rootlet act like the entangle one? i.e. the longer u sit in it, the more immob gets stacked. I think it was working fine for me in BWE3, unless they nerfed it. entangle and AS totally kittens up profs that don’t have on-demand pbaoe, high power damage, or multiple condi cleanses. the root has at least 3k HP. at least.

p.s. most people don’t use hoelbrak or melandru…that was wvw meta like 2 years ago.

It seems to work like entangle. Haven’t tested it much though, because it was very unreliable with dazes.
The problem with entangle (and most likely AS) is, that the first pulse applies only 1 sec of immob, so with (enough) condi duration reduction they can walk out of the vines before the second pulse appears. Condi remove (including traits/skills which only remove immob), stealth, teleports, invuln all counters the root too. It is usually not necessary to kill the vines.

And as far as i know, hoelbrak is still common in WvW and will probably be used often in PvP too after vamp nerf.

Smoke field -> HS, CnD, HiS, Steal, SR, … Thieves have plenty ways to stealth without trapper runes. It would make it harder for them to stay stealthed permanently, but nerfing/changing trapper runes, which are totaly fine on ranger/dh, would affect those two classes still more than thieves.

Using lick wounds revives the pet, if it is dead, but if you kill the pet after is starts ressing, it can’t rez anymore until lick wounds is ready again (20 sec cd i think, not sure).

Necro usually wins downstate fight in 1vs1 against ranger (and most likely against every other class too). How strong the downstates abilities are, depends mostly on the situation. Ranger/Warrior can do nothing against stability/invuln stomps. If you have a portal or a thief for ressing or a nearby tower in wvw, ele downstate is by far the strongest. And so on …

Crapgame.6519:

UmbraNoctis.1907:

It is possible to dodge/avoid traps. Not even that hard …

If you could see them…

I can see and hear, when/where they are placed. And if i dodge over them, the get triggered without hitting me. Or my pet/other AI triggers them …

Of course i will step into the traps, if the are placed before the fight on a point in pvp/at a choke point in wvw and i don’t know, I’m facing a trapper. But this is, what stunbreaks/condiremove/heals are for.

The problems with ranger’s stunbreaks is, that they don’t let you escape if caught in the middle of things like slick shoes, gravity well, everything else with multiple cc in a short time frame, because you get cc’ed again right after stunbreaking (LR gets often interrupted – can happen even against thief with basi venom). Ranger is the only class with no stunbreak tied to a mechanic like teleport, invuln or stability, which prevents subsequently cc.

Tragic Positive.9356:

You are strongly contradicting yourself.
I won’t drag this further because it wouldn’t lead anywhere. You like to argue, not to search for solutions.

No, i’m not. I was just asking questions. Questions, which you obviously can’t or don’t want to answer …

How does the smokescale solve the problems of the other pets? Or do new traits/skills make things like Sharpening Stone or Signet of the Hunt or other useless stuff suddenly usefull?

It is possible to dodge/avoid traps. Not even that hard …

No buffs/effects are automatically shared between AI and the related player. And i’m pretty sure, this is intended. There is no reason to assume otherwise. And again, minis and AI like pets are not the same. So visible minis might be a bug, because they should not affect combat, but this does not apply to pets, clones, spirits, necros minions, turrets, …

I don’t think it is a bug, that pets don’t gain stealth. They count (more or less) as an independent character. Just like other AI. And don’t compare them to minis, those are only visual things like skins, and don’t (or at least shouldn’t) affect combat at all.

And of course there is nothing wrong with running trapper or whatever else build, as long it is fun to play. But it has its limits and isn’t too hard to counter by competent players. Just great against noobs, who run without condiclear and just sit in those traps all day long like shown in the video.

Maybe because ppl are tired of crying about stuff, which has mentioned over and over in the past without any changes. Or maybe because useless traits and skills are not only a ranger problem.

Oh, and they already confirmed to solve the problems of pets i mentioned? You know, stuff like lack of control and reliability? Link?

Btw, pet’s opening strike gets refreshed every time the ranger’s opening strike gets refreshed through remorseless. You could argue, that those minors are weak without the trait, but with remorseless they are not too bad.

Uhm, i was just responding to Dojo, who was talking about the smokescale. Why should i suddenly start to talk about Sharpening Stone or Signets or whatever?

Yes, of course all bugs get fixed immediately …

Did they state somewhere, that pets not working in pvp was intended?

And of course i’m only talking about BWE3, since we don’t know, if/how the pets will change. But yes, i think (well, at least hope), they will nerf the smokescale. And then hopefully change/buff all those useless pets …

Dojo.1867

I would not call anything broken before you actually played it versus other players. That wvw video someone posted here? You can do the same thing with drakes if you commit all your high cooldown utility skills to it and have opponents that cannot dodge or avoid damage.

Bristle doesn’t seemt that good at applying damage to players to be honest. Have to play it myself first. This seems like very avoidable damage. For smokescale a large amount can also be dodged but the pet as a whole is just a good package.

Smokescales unrelenting assault deals way more dmg than a drakes tailswipe (10k+ with zero! buffs), instant 750 range teleport, can’t be avoided by kiting, can’t be interrupted or blinded, can’t be fully avoided by a dodge roll.
To deal massive dmg with a drake (or other “old” pets) you have to use multiple cooldowns to stack dmg modifier, their dmg can be easily avoided by walking, dodging, blind, cc, and sometimes the pet just wastes those modifier because it autoattacks instead of using the special ability. To deal lots of dmg with smokescale you have to do … nothing. Or maybe just use Sick’Em, and enjoy 15k+ burst dmg.
I have tested the smokescale by myself against other players and i would call it op.

babazhook.6805

Condition wise a trap thief can only lay on three stacks of bleed and one stack of poison from their traps. tripwire does not add conditions and neither does any other. If people can not handle this amount of bleeds coming in , even if multiple needle traps used, they should rethink their build.

The majority of bleedstacks comes usually from caltrops. The most dangerous thing from the needle traps is actually the immob. If you stand in the caltrops and can’t clear the immob, you are pretty much dead.
Steal applies some condis too (confusion + poison).

Venoms only get applied if you hit your enemy with direct dmg. Steal only applies them with mug. Steal alone, traps and caltrops don’t apply venoms.

Edit: You could apply them with thieves guild and venom share though.

This “No. 1 Server” is loosing against rank 6 server and is only very slightly above your poor rank 10 server. Nobody said, sm isn’t flipped constantly in matches like yours.

But it is a fact – there is nothing to discuss – that matches exist, where one server is dominating enough to be able to fully upgrade and defend sm for the majority of the time.

YOU won’t be affected by the stealth fountain much. But others will be, and not in a positive way.

Traps don’t go through invuln. Unless you are talking about Endure Pain/Signet of Stone – those are not invulnerabilities, only immunities to direct dmg. Traps are unblockable, but can be avoided by other defensive mechanic like dodge, blind, invuln, …

kleym.2340

- Celestial Shadow: Re-work this trait when leaving celestial avatar form (if you put stealth to allies in a point its a fail, because the enemies decap your point when you leave the celestial avatar form, “in teamfights you cant leave the celestial avatar form with this trait”)

This trait is fine. If you don’t want stealth, don’t take this trait.

Your other changes would make druid pretty op …

meepeY.2867:

First and foremost, Disrupter Trap aka Reveal Trap is the biggest counter. Drop one on yourself and wait. A smart Ghost Thief however will use Shadow Trap, pop the Disrupter and then port away.

I have actually tried to use this trap against you once, but you never stepped into it. Instead an other thief, who got ganked by multiple players triggered it and died.
What do we learn? Don’t play perma stealth trapper, it gets “innocent” thieves killed :p

Offair.2563:

It would annoy them fighting something that does not show up for a single or half second during a fight yet unload conditions on you like crazy, thats my point. “fighting” and killing and staying stealthed.

It would be still useless outside of some hotjoin trolling. So making the rune accessible in PvP would not require a nerf. Even if it is annoying.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Roaming in Wvw any class can roam in Wvw, you see thieves tack on as a +1 since they can immobile with their great mobility, but they need the party to kill the opponent.

Thieves are still the most annoying gankers imo. Sadly i can’t be angry with them, because it is pretty much the only thing left where they are good at. Outside from running away.

Offair.2563:

It is not about class mechanics, but a rune that makes them completely invisible during the whole fight. Try to use trapper runes in spvp…oh wait a minute you cant and if you could they would have been revamped to get rid of this cheese right away.

Trapper rune would be useless in PvP, at least for thief, because it is all about capping points, which you can’t while sitting in stealth and because lots of aoe cleanse would make those condis useless.

Perma stealth trap thief is not op. But imo it is bad design, if somebody is able to deal dmg and kill ppl without being visible ever. Just like it is bad design, to create a class/build which can’t survive otherwise …

Again – the wiki is wrong. You get revealed if you deal direct dmg or through special reveal abilities (stealth trap, engi trait, …). You don’t get revealed if you enter combat. Best example is condi trapper thief who can kill ppl without being visible/revealed ever.

The video says nothing about a special buff. Or did i missed something (if yes, which minute? – I just watched the part with the fountain at ~ 9 min). It seems to apply the usual stealth. The fountain itself has a cooldown, just like stealth skills have a cooldown. Nothing special there.

The wiki is wrong. Never seen somebody stealthing during combat? Do you even play the game?
And which facts are you talking about? Nobody says, you can’t take an undefended sm. You haven’t proved yet, to be able to flip sm with low numbers, regardless of how many ppl are defending it.

It doesn’t matter, how much or big blobs are running arround, as long the don’t defend and upgrade sm. Which they obviousely didn’t. Maybe because they were busy fighting each other.

Also you are ticking for 260. You may be outnumbered on EB at this time, but most likely not in general. And the outnumbered buff doesn’t show, by how much you are outnumbered. Somebody will always have this buff, regardless of how balanced a match is.

Thanks for proving, that this change won’t affect balanced matchups.

Now go to T6 and try to flip this thing with your “havoc squad”. Keep in mind, a 40+ man blob will show up as soon you touch a wall or door. Good luck.

Edit: You don’t get revealed if you are put into combat. You only get revealed if you deal dmg.

If sm isn’t upgraded, there is no new challenge to beat.

Jayne.9251

What’s the argument against it, other than the stronger server will potentially abuse it […]

Isn’t this enough?

Btw, why do you even care about a mechanic, which won’t affect you, because sm is constantly flipped?

Eleandra.4859:

The problem stays that condi builds are very strong against power builds and those are very weak against condi builds in return because condi builds have a LOT of sustain usually and since 26.6. also a LOT of damage.

This is not true in general. Some power builds are weak against condis, but others are strong against them. Some condi builds are weak vs condis, some are weak vs (certain) power builds (for example condi trap ranger is weak vs power lb ranger), others are not. It depends on the specific builds, not whether it is condi or power.

Eleandra.4859:

Also, I propose to reduce the sigil of generosity sigil internal cooldown to 3 seconds.

If what the people playing condi saying is true, they should have absolutely no problem to manage the conditions coming back to them.

I joke obviously but I would be intrigued to see what happens.

Then zerker builds could hardcounter every condi build, because the condi builds don’t have to deal only with their own conditions, but with the high direct dmg from the zerker too, who can be nearly immune to the condi dmg, thanks to the frequent transfer on top of other condi remove options.

Would it be op, if a (nomad) bunkerbuild can oneshot enemys? Yes? Well, ranger can do this. But it is far from op, because it is not reliable and has too many trade-offs. I think, similar is true for MoC druid.

Why do people use vampirism rune (which is terrible against condis) more often than hoelbrak or melandru, if conditions are a bigger threat than direct dmg?

CA is useless against burst. You can’t heal while being CC’ed and healing takes more time, than bursting you down, especially when focused by multiple players. CA offeres zero dmg mitigation, leaving you even more vulnerable than outside of the transform.

On top of this, mesmer could remove stability. Ranger can’t. MoC Druid gets absolutely hardcountered by stability, while being vulnerable to cc and burst itself.

I play on Miller’s Sound. Just look at the EU T6 matchups of the last year and you might get an idea, what i’m talking about.

Ninja’ing towers/keeps and stealth ganking players isn’t a challenge. Doing this against outumbered opponents is even less a challenge …

So your server constantly flips sm, which is defended by 3-5-times of numbers and plenty of siege every single time? No? Not heavily defended? Well, just like i said, you don’t know, what i’m talking about.
And i’m still waiting for a reason, why this stealth fountain would be a good idea.

Btw, i have a second account in gold league, played against every single server up there, and the difference between those server is not that big.

The Piken-Deso-Jade-match is fairly close. Those server obviously don’t have a too big population gap, despite the big rank difference.
Other matches are not that close, and even if sm get flipped 2-3 times a week, most of the time it is fully upgraded, because one server is outnumbering the other two by such a large margin, that it is impossible to flip it. You don’t have to deal with this situation, but i have for about a 3/4 year now. You don’t know, what i’m talking about, but i know. Fully upgraded sm is not fun to play against, and this change will make it worse.

Why should the smokescale benefit less from bm? It might not be the best pet for the taunt, but works very well with quickness/might on pet swap. Swap to smokescale, press sick’em, enjoy 15-20k burst dmg …

UmbraNoctis.1907:

[…]if nobody defends it, but thats usually not the case.[…]

The main argument for why it’s bad is that it only benefits an already dominating server, making unbalanced matches even worse. Idk why this is so hard to understand.

I have already soloed sm during prime time, how does this matter? It can be flipped easily if nobody defends it, but thats usually not the case.

I still haven’t seen an argument for this stealth fountain other than “don’t worry, it won’t be that bad” …

The biggest counter to conditions is to remove them and there is actually a food, which can do this …

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bowl_of_Saffron-scented_Poultry_Soup

Smokescale can carry almost every (druid) build …

Rank says nothing. The difference in rating/population between Rank 1 and 10 is smaller than the difference between rank 16 and 17/18. Yet those server have to face each other over and over again
It is not always possible to flip sm frequently enough to prevent an upgrade. And if people have the chance to use it, they will. Why should they stop and “forget” about it?

forum bug … 123

I can’t think of one single positive thing, this could have. In the best case it isn’t used at all. In the worst case a dominating server has an even easier time at rolling over his outnumbered opponents. You might not care, because you don’t have to deal with an upgraded sm too often. But there are server, which are heavily outnumbered almost every match for weeks, months or even a whole year. No need to try it, to know, it won’t have any positive influence.

Even if few players reveal themselfs, you don’t know, how many are still stealthed. It could be just a small grp or a big zerg.

This change won’t affect balanced matchups much, but in unbalanced matches it will benefit an already dominating server even further …