Guild Wars 2

But why would you take a dps ranger/druid, if other classes can fill this role much better because they have either more aoe/cleave dmg or better mobility + burst? Offensive ranger brings nothing special, which he could do better than other classes like thief, mesmer, dh, rev, …

Edit:

2)wiki says that pets getting the Moment of clarity buff even without that trait -https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Moment_of_Clarity
It can lead to big undeserved spikes.

Can’t confirm. Maybe this can happen under certain conditions, but definitely not on a regular basis. Wouldn’t be the first time, the wiki is wrong …
And smokescale and bristleback doesn’t even benefit that much from Attack of Opportunity buff because their main dmg comes from multiple hit attacks.

Entangle IS unblockable. I use it all the time against blocking opponents, because it is the easiest way to land it. Still feels useless most of the time, because almost everybody has so many ways to counter it, “counting escape utils” doesn’t help if there are so many things to count.

Jana.6831:

On EB every second pair of unprotected dolyaks coming from golanta will die.

Since the dolyak speed increase last week, they don’t get killed by mobs anymore, because they just outrun them.

Yea, LB2 spam works great on a melee ranger :p

Vault deals more (burst) dmg so i guess, the higher ini cost is justified.

And yes, d/p is the best weapon set for thieves – not only for power thieves, but for thieves in general – because d/d condi doesn’t offer much outside from being “annoying”. The big advantage of d/p (and burst builds in general) is the instant nature of the damage, which gives the enemy less time to react. And (kill-)time is a very important factor.

SlayerSixx.5763:

[…] it doesn’t change the fact that they’re simply not fun to fight against as a power user.

This is your very personal view, but not a general fact. I don’t mind fighting condi builds with my power ranger, even if i don’t run much condi remove all the time. The build i hate fighting the most is actually a power build (scrapper). Of course some condi builds can be quite annoying, but others can be fun to fight (for me).
Btw, how is a DB/caltrops spamming condi thief much different from a vault/bounding dodger spamming power thief? Attacks with build-in defense are not a condi only feature.

Thanks for proving that burnzeker is great for PvE. Unfortunately this discussion is about PvP …

The “burstiest” condi build (which works against players, not only against stationary mobs) is burn guard i guess (+ maybe p/p burn engie), and it gets easily countered by cleanses, because it lacks cover condis. And those aren’t very tanky builds. (marauder scrapper for example has better survability despite using an offensive amulet). How tanky a build is, isn’t only dependent on stats – traits and skills matter a lot too. And many condibuilds have to give up defensive traits and/or skills so their survability isn’t always better than power builds, even with more defensive stats from amulet/gear.

Terrible idea. The game needs (slightly) less CC, not more passive immunities, which allows you to ignore important enemy attacks.

StickerHappy.8052:

Couple of questions:

1.) Does interrupts coming from the pet (Taunt, Knockdowns, etc) proc MoC?

2.) Do you need NM (fortifying bond) for your pet to get remorseless too via fury?

1.) No.

2.) No. The pets always gains Opening Strike when the ranger gains it. If you apply fury to the pet only, it will not gain OS though (regardless of NM).

Dojo.1867:

Keep in mind that like for most squishy druid builds you want to almost double tap celestial avatar to safe as much astral force as possible and to put it on a low cooldown.

I wish, double tapping CA would be still possible. It was a great escaping tool in the beta, but now you are forced to wait 2 seconds in CA, which leaves you with little to no defense (depending on utility skills ofc) for this short time, so basically useless when you get pressured. One of the reasons, why i don’t like playing druid.

Depends on what you define as “dmg spec”. Ranger has very high dmg potential via pets (smokescale/bristleback) while having decent survability, which makes it very strong in 1vs1 (druid or not doesn’t matter that much in this regard, it just brings better teamsupport/utility). But you will be 100% reliant on those pets.

Glassy builds with the ranger as main dmg dealer doesn’t work very well though. LB gets countered too much by reflects/projectile destruction, blocks and LOS. GS burst is too slow/easily to avoid with low sustained dmg and sword has only autoattack as main dmg source.

I don’t see many people running MM/WS/Druid – for good reasons.

1st: this build WILL suffer from heavy conditions pressure. Bristleback has only 15,4k hp and is very vulnerable to conditions, especially without BM (low hp and higher cd on petswap). If it is dead, smokescale will die sooner or later too and then you are left without your main dmg and only with the delayed and stationary cleanse from glyphes and CA.

I would use EB only in combination with shouts/soldier rune (unlike glyphes this is actually a reliable way to remove condis from the pet) and beastmastery.

2nd: SotW and RaO are on 60 sec cd (unless you give up MoC, which is usually the main reason, why druids trait for MM) and have 1 second casttime. You have to use them preventive and can’t use them as reaction to cc. If you get jumped, it is already too late.

3rd: Without protection from NM and no SoS/Guard, the build is weak against power spikes too.

4th: NM/BM offers better dmg than MM because of stronger pets and might stacking. On top of better survability against direct dmg. You don’t gain much by taking MM as druid (MoC got nerfed, Remorseless only usefull with RaO – so 9 seconds every minute).

5th: No swiftness/running speed increase and untraited main heal (unless you use the healing glyphe, which is weaker than traited TU or HaO).

Unfortunately a brain doesn’t (hard) counter braindead builds :/

Condis are not a hard counter to scrapper. Maybe the new condi necro/reaper is, but that’s pretty much all. And marauder is not a bruiser amulet.

Imo it is more a question of bristleback/smokescale or not and less a matter of druid or not. WS/NM/BM builds with survival skills and/or shouts work extremly well with those two pets in 1vs1. With old pets it is much harder to compete, regardless of the choosen traits.

If you have time to spam GS autoattack, you are not pressured. Sure it is nice to avoid some random aoe dmg, but i’m talking about defense against focus from multiple players. They won’t wait till you have completed the first two parts of the autoattack chain before they burst you. All you can do in such a situation is to try to get away with GS or Staff 3. And hope it is not a thief or rev who’s chasing you. Good luck kiting those …

Btw, 50 games say nothing. I have hundreds of games with suboptimal ranger/druid builds and some of them worked quite well too. Doesn’t change the fact, that those builds were not optimal and worked mainly because my opponents were not the best, uncoordinated or simply didn’t know about the weaknesses of my builds.

You coun’t evade on GS autoattack as viable defensive option in PvP? Really? Hilt Bash hasn’t much defensive value and the block has it’s downsides too, especially against multiple targets.
Staff 3+5 are nice and help with survability, sure, but that’s pretty much it. Of course Staff/GS druid is great at kiting/running as long you can avoid getting locked down by cc/immob, but while you are doing so, you aren’t helping your team much. Your main healing/support skills – glyphes and CA skills – work better with a more stationary gameplay. The enemy team has to let you heal your allies and if they are good, they won’t.

Of course it is too early to tell, how the meta will evolve and maybe i’m wrong. But since druid hasn’t changed much, i doubt it’s role as a dueler/side point fighter will change.

If you have to evade/kite – you can’t heal (your allies). If you get cc’ed – you can’t heal. It is too easy to stop/prevent a druid’s healing by focusing him. And even prepatch a druid wasn’t that great against focus from multiple players. Less defensive stats from amulet and dmg buffs (mainly to thieves) will make it even harder to survive in teamfights. You need defensive stats/traits/skills as a healer, because healing alone doesn’t save you from burst. As a bunker/bruiser druid might work well, but not as a pure healer.
“Old bunkers” (chrono, tempest, guard) had less healing than druid, true, but they had great team support through boons, aoe condi removal (better than those tiny fields with delayed cleanse from druid), better dmg mitigation/avoidance, and more instant abilities (shatter, auras, shouts, …), so they could deal better with focus fire and keep up their role as healer/supporter.

Guard + HaO still gives perma swiftness/regen, even with 0 boon duration.

I’m not even sure, if SoS or the bear’s invuln prevent the dmg from guard. The smokescale definitely takes dmg in it’s smoke field.

Edit: Tested it, SoS prevents the dmg.
Edit2: Same with bear’s invuln. They use it only if they are at very low hp.

I don’t think, protect me will be able to replace SoS, it can only replace a stun breaker. 1st because the taunt is applied after you got hit, 2nd because there is so much stab and attacks with build-in defense that the taunt won’t do anyhing very often.

Guard can be very strong and a replacment for SoS, but only with tanky pets.

Chokolata.1870:

I do not mind the MoC duration nerf. It used to be 50% as a GM trait. Now its a master trait in an already powerful line. We also got a new proc for taunt so thats ok.

Skirm is probably the only traitline which is used less than MM in PvP.

Edit: Bristleback and Smokescale seem unchanged (Spike Barrage still hits 20x). Haven’t checked all pets, but i doubt, anet will nerf other pets.

Expiatus.4210:

UmbraNoctis.1907:

MoC got nerfed (Stun/daze duration increase down to 50% from 100%). Yay for nerfing core ranger because of druid …

I don’t see that in patch notes. Do you see this in game?

Yea, it isn’t in the patch notes, but I checked it ingame.

MoC got nerfed (Stun/daze duration increase down to 50% from 100%). Yay for nerfing core ranger because of druid …

Fear doesn’t break the roots. And if you have a problem with knocking your enemy out of the roots there is a very simple solution: Don’t use a knockback in those situations.
(I can’t count how often an enemy ranger saved me from his own roots …).

Who says, old pets are better?

Even though it isn’t a bad idea to get used to sword, i would recommend GS for leveling/open world PvE. Against multiple targets it is better than sword and it offers better mobility to get faster arround the maps. River drake’s F2 is a decent aoe ability too.

Burtnik.5218:

Um.. if you get oneshooted by dh then i have nothing to add here. And btw you said “abilities” as far i know bristle is just one skill that deals more damage than 3,5sec channeled selfroot skill called hb. Looks balanced right?

I got oneshot by DH only once when i was running full zerk (actually it wasn’t even the DH itself, only his traps and it was in WvW, so it probably doesn’t count). And i never got oneshot by bristleback. For me, bristleback F2 is way easier to avoid than DH burst. So i have to assume, those who die to Bristleback will die to DH burst too.

But that’s not my point …

I don’t even want to defend the bristleback. I have already stated in this thread, that i think, it is too much/too easy dmg. I really dislike the current state of ranger and especially druid in PvP. I have tried many builds without bristle and smokescale but none can compete with those pets. It is not even close. You are better with a non druid build with those pets, than the other way arround.

If you take away the pet’s damage, what has ranger/druid left?

(In WvW, where nobody can blame me for using suboptimal builds, i never use bristleback btw)

DH can oneshot players with other abilities. Does it really matter, which button(s) to press?

Burtnik.5218:

Didnt know profession mechanic is supposed to 1 hit people.

Hey Anet, equilibrium is underpowered, i cant one shot people with legend swap. Please buff kthxbye

When reading such posts I wonder, why serious teams don’t stack multiple druids as dps/burst class instead of … revs?

How many rangers did you see in tournaments pre HOT? Yes, ranger were very strong in 1vs1. But that was all they were good at. And still not good enough to be desired in pro teams.

And overall (aoe/cleave) dmg was lower back then.

Bad comparison. Bunker Druids don’t deal much dmg and glassier versions would be easier to kill.

I can totally understand the complains about bristleback and don’t like it either, but currently ranger is totally reliant on the pets for a reasonable amout of dmg output. Even if they would use an offensive build. Longbow gets countered by the high amount of projectile hate, blocks and los options. GS lacks sustained dmg and the burst is too easy to avoid. Sword has only aa as main dmg source, which hinders your ability to dogde. Condi builds aren’t a viable option too.

And reducing the pet’s survability would make them useless as long ranger has no real way to protect the pets. Don’t forget, the aren’t just additional minions, the are ranger’s class mechanic. Ranger are actually the only class, which can lose access to their mechanic for up to 60 seconds. Without reliable ways to prevent pet’s death in certain situations. That’s something no other class has to worry about.

Why not Sharpened Edges? Even in a non condi build it is a small dmg increase, especially for the pets (both cats and bristleback have 1k condi dmg).

I got accused for running a “cheese condi build” at least three times, when i was playing a gs/s+x melee ranger with zero condition damage.

Got called “cheater” as trapper with trapper runes two times and a condi thief (back when they were one of the most op builds in wvw) complained about my “lame condi stealth build”.

Mortifer.2946:

It is not about overall DPS, we are not asking for DPS, we are asking for balance so all professions are viable there. Current situation is, if you are not burnzerker warrior/DPS herald/fresh air tempest/alacrity chronomancer/heal druid you are not welcomed in a raid party.

It will always be this way in PvE, no matter how Anet balances the game. There will always be those “best” comps, because unlike players, PvE enemys don’t adapt and try to counter the meta. And many player want to play only with those builds, because it makes it easier, faster, or because they don’t know it any better, even if tons of other builds are totally viable and the difference would be barely noticable. At least in casual runs.
If people wait 10 mins or longer to find players with the perfect classes and refuse to take anything else, even if the difference in run time would be way less than their waiting time, it has nothing to do with bad balance. It is just stupidity and that’s something, Anet can’t change.

Keep in mind … PvE can be balanced by changing the player’s stats/abilities and by changing the mobs/mechanics. For PvP only the first way works.

And 99% of PvE can be sucessfully done with almost any build. It might take a little bit longer, but that’s it. In PvP the success of weak classes/builds is much more limited.
OP stuff in PvE might make something too easy, but nobody is forced to use it. In PvP, OP stuff can ruin other player’s fun. There are some good reasons, why PvP balance is more important than PvE balance. Ofc PvE shouldn’t be ignored (same for WvW, which should be more PvP oriented balance wise) and splitting the class balance across the game modes would be better anyway.

Tragic Positive.9356:

(Carrion against Condis is good; Rabid vs Power)

Dire is better against both :p

Unless you are using Sharpened Edges, there is no reason to not use dire (or a dire/apothecary mix) for a condi ranger in wvw. The extra power from carrion won’t do much (no precision/critdmg and bad powerscaling of weapons) and precision from rabid is useless without critprocs.

I never felt the need for MM when using lb since the traitchanges in June. I’m only talking about WvW roaming though. In zergfights lb sucks anyway due to the amount of projectile reflect/destruction.

Condi rev and necro are the only classes which can deal with the insane amout of boon spam of current meta (bunker) builds. It has absolutely nothing to do with condis generally being superior to direct dmg.

And if a pure necro/rev condi comp would be better than anything else, as you claim, why isn’t this comp used by all pro teams? (Actually no serious team uses a pure condi comp).

Please, stop ignoring the fact, that the majority of condibuilds suck as much as the majority of powerbuils (maybe even more).

Protection is already a very powerful boon. No need to buff it even further. Builds shouldn’t be good against everything with such low investment.

An alternative could be, to reduce the efficiency of current resistance from 100% to something lower (30-50% maybe) and make it more aviable to some classes. It shouldn’t be as spammable as protection currently is.
Btw, nerfing protection uptime could be a reasonable way to indirectly nerf condibuilds (by buffing power dmg), without introducing more powercreep.

Edit: Some runes reduce condi duration.
If you use block/invuln after getting hit by direct dmg, it won’t reduce this dmg afterwards.

Most complaints about condis refer to specific skills/traits/builds (sometimes justified, sometimes not), yet many want to nerf all conditions, while ignoring the fact, that many condi builds are quite underwhelming currently.

If certain traits or skills are op or broken, it doesn’t justify the nerf of a whole mechanic, which isn’t even used that much by most classes.

Let’s be honest, many players dislike condi builds for whatever reason and just want this playstyle to be deleted when they talk about “balance”. But balance means, that everything should have its place. Including condi builds.

Unlike you, I’m not complaining, nor making useless arguments without any justification.

Valky.2574:

Now i love my Ranger it’s my main and always will be but atm we are very very underpowerd vs the other elites you will have much more fun on others than ranger/druid atm imo

Druid is in a better state than some other elite specs. And definitely not very very underpowered. In none of the three gamemodes.

Valky.2574:

But if you must have a ranger remember STAY in ranged or you are gonna die no matter what gear or traits you use

Ranger/Druid is very capable of fighting and surviving in melee. Even with offensive gear/traits.

How many classes have a viable condi build? 2 out of 9? Better nerf all condibuilds then …

You shouldn’t mix up passive traits in general and passive procs. Yes, many traits are more or less passive and this is totally fine, because they still need active input to be useful. The OP is talking only about passive procs though. Those things that punish you for successfully hitting the opponent without him doing anything. They don’t need any skill to be usefull. They promote lazy play, because you get rewarded (or at least not punished in case of those 25% health procs) for taking some hits instead of actively avoiding the enemy’s attacks.
This includes warrior’s defy pain and last stand, which are actually quite strong procs and only a non-issue because of the weak state of warrior in the current meta. Which might change soon.
Diamond skin is passive but not such a passive proc. Imo it is still a bad designed trait, but for different reasons.

Pets use their own condition dmg for the burning from sun spirit.

Everything with a movement ability with more than 430 range, some CC or stealth can escape easily. We aren’t talking about rev’s UA here.

Bristleback has significantly higher thoughness than birds (same vulnerability to condis though because of low HP). And the ranged nature allows it to attack from outside of all the melee cleave/aoe thrown arround by many classes, which helps a lot at keeping it alive. Unless it gets focused of course.

Btw, even though i think, bristelback deals too much dmg, it is (in combination with smokescale) pretty much the only reason, why ranger/druid is viable in PvP. And still not op enough to be mandatory or to get stacked multiple times by pro teams. If those pets gets heavily nerfed without any compensation, ranger won’t be part of the meta any longer – once more …

Skullface.7293:

Once Bristleback becomes kittenty the ranger can just put an Owl and one shot people with the appropriate build.

Birds are too vulnerable to the high aoe/cleave dmg of some classes. They won’t survive long enough to be a real threat in many cases.

Serraphin Storm.2369:

Stealth wont save your opponent (the proposed changes would do nothing one target stealths).

Sword auto does NOT follow stealthed targets. You will leap forward regardless of the enemy’s position. It is for example impossible to cleave a stealthed downed body with sword, because you will jump away instead of sticking to the target. So manual movement control would be actually better against stealth than the current state.

Also keep in mind, that the “stickiness” of sword autoattack is very limited. If the opponent uses movement skills, he will get away anyways. If he is just running, you can stick to him without those “auto leaps” (cripple helps, additional superspeed, as proposed by some, even more). Of course it would require the use of movement buttons instead of just smashing 1. But if you are able to perform super skillfull maneuver with current sword autoattack this shouldn’t be an issue at all.

Overall the animation lock is more harmful than advantageous in most cases and just because it is possible to make it work somehow, doesn’t mean, it is good.

+1

Strong unavoidable or (more or less) random offensive procs should get removed or at least nerfed too. Unfortunately this passive crap is kinda necessary to survive currently and will be even more so after energy sigil nerf and dmg buffs …

Since the trait changes in June, mesmer could deal with thieves just fine …

Btw, rev has much more unblockable attacks and are way stronger than thieves (at least for now). Why don’t you cry about those?