Guild Wars 2

Sirevanac.3178:

Tera is just one more grinding game with different combat system, nothing more….

I find this comment hilarious, since it perfectly describes Guild Wars 2. There’s nothing to do in this game but grind, grind, and more grind.

You guys forget that Gw2, as any other game in its beggining, its not nearly finished. Every mmorpg begins with a lots of flaws and systems that are in their very beggining. You just have to give them time, and there’s not much to do about it.

It’s absurd to think a game should be forgiven for shipping unfinished. Plenty of MMOs have flaws at launch but the unfinished ones (SWTOR most recently) have short lifespans. There is absolutely no excuse for launching your game without the most basic features the way GW2 has.

Gw2 by the moment is not a game to play full time as you can do in WoW or L2. If you do, you’ll encounter this problems, or lack of endgame.

You can’t excuse lack of endgame on the game being “not meant for fulltime play.” You don’t design an MMORPG around that unless you’re trying to make it fail. Even a buy2play MMO like this requires lots of active players buying gems to stay afloat. Assuming customers won’t play full time due to it’s non-subscription nature is foolhardy.

MrDmajor.7084:

Mirta.5029:

MrDmajor.7084:

Video game difficulty should not be something that goes beyond “reason”.

Guild Wars 2 difficulty is not measured by reaction, timing, position, and team work… it’s based on player base finding ways to exploit or find short cuts around bad design for some “cheese”.

GW2 battle design is BAD in general especially in dungeons. I’m willing to bet nobody at Anet has tested fractals at these levels or there would be “guides”. They just used some loopy algorithm to scale w/ the level and sit back and watch in amazement.

“Holy kitten, somebody got to Lvl 50, these guys are nuts!”

ever played really old games? Ping pong, pac man, tetris? The difficulty tends to be infinite. This is an infinite dungeon.
They’ll also release more asended gear during the year (they couldn’t because of the whole uproar), so just roam around until you get more gear against agony.
Now about dungeon exploits – it’s actually more damaging than rewarding. I hate groups that skip, because a) you’re missing out on the loot b) you make it really tough for squishies.
Also it IS based on reaction and skill. You know how easy it is to go down in a dungeon if you’re not tanking spec? That’s why you have to have a good dodging reaction. You can also use your skill to take down mobs 5 levels higher than you in PVE.

My bad, I thought it was 2012-2013.

GW2 Dungeons/Difficulty and battle system are poor. It is what it is. They tried to shoehorn some things last minute to compete w/ Tera but it was contrived.

Bad design does not = difficult. It’s bad design. Period.

Agreed. It’s so obvious they removed the holy trinity to compete with Tera but forgot Tera has the trinity as well and didn’t think ahead of time how it would permanently cripple their encounter design. Now Tera flopped in both Korea and the west, WoW is riding high again after MoP, and GW2 continues to sink deeper into the pit of failure with the weight of incompetence around it’s ankles.

Hindsight is 20/20 I guess.

Same problems: No mechanics, no strategy, just kite and dodge. It’s difficulty is fake difficulty brought on by needing to stack Agony resistance. If it wasn’t for Agony the dungeon would be a faceroll even on the highest difficulty settings.

IHatePugs.3671:

I would have to agree with this a lot of the bosses in this game are just boringly simple. I mean the boss in Arah is like the only one that takes some “Focus”

I’m going to pray you mean Simmin or Lupi and not Zhaitan. Even then the former is only “difficult” since she’s broken. Lupi is the only decent boss in this game.

critickitten.1498:

This discussion ends here. If you’re going to actually go so far as to try and pretend that gaming is some sort of elitist clique that you can only join if you play games 5 hours a day, and that anyone who doesn’t behave in this fashion is a lesser being who is not worthy of having a fun experience with video games….then we have nothing to discuss here.

When potentially good games are ruined by the developers need to cater to the lowest common denominator then yes it is something to complain about. This game has so much potential and we’re watching it fall apart before our eyes in order to make casuals happy while the true gamers are left out in the cold.

Goodbye.

No, I think I’ll stay.

critickitten.1498:

lothefallen.7081:

In reality though, it is a bad thing because it forces homogenization and lack of engagement from the skill system and encounter design. When you have to dumb down a game for a very liberal, casual-feeding structure, no one really wins.

People keep saying that there is no variation to this game, that everyone is the same. The only way someone can claim this is by creating an alternate universe for themselves in which this is true. There is plenty of build variation, and plenty of class diversity. The fact that any class can build themselves as a glass cannon, or as a tank, or even a support or healer type, is honestly rather astonishing and allows players to enjoy the diversity of a game with multiple classes while still playing the classes in a variety of ways.

Second, “casual” is not a synonym for “easy” and I do wish that gamers would properly educate themselves on the meanings of these terms. “Casual” refers to a time commitment, not a difficulty setting.

To your first claim: Variety in build does not equal variety in role. You can have a million different builds but it’s all pointless if the only available role is DPS.

To the second: Casual content is easy to reflect the casual player’s time allotment. It’s also a known fact that casual players devote less time to perfecting their play style and thus are lesser players than more hardcore gamers.

You might say, “But if you make the content difficult then they can’t see it.” I’m sorry, but the only thing preventing you from seeing the content is you. Just because you don’t want to experience hardcore content does not mean those who do are to be denied.

critickitten.1498:

Vasham.2408:

Honestly it’s a moot point. Every class’s role is “deal damage” even if it’s through a gimmick like kits, clones, or pets. With no defining trinity roles the gimmicks that form the backbones of classes are pointless window dressing, nothing more.

I’m not sure you understand the meaning of the term “gimmick”. This seems to be a common problem with gamers nowadays, ever since the Wii’s release.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimmick

In marketing language, a gimmick is a unique or quirky special feature that makes something “stand out” from its contemporaries. However, the special feature is typically thought to be of little relevance or use. Thus, a gimmick is a special feature for the sake of having a special feature.

Pets do not function at all like clones which do not function at all like turrets. These are special features that not only define the class but also differentiate how that class conducts the roles of offense and defense, as well as how it functions in regards to the “loose trinity” of damage/control/support.

If you’re going to boil everything down to such an absurd degree as “everything does damage, ergo the way in which they do damage is a gimmick”, then I’d argue that GW1 is a game built upon thousands of gimmicks. Because what’s the difference between heal + condition removal and regen and just straight healing….aren’t they all just heals in the end after all?

Heck, I guess that means WoW’s built on gimmicks too. And every other MMO, to boot.

How about we take a stance that’s a bit more grounded in reality, please? Delivery methods for damage are perfectly valid forms of differentiation in every other game so let’s stop pretending it doesn’t count in GW2.

But the definition of gimmick clearly defines the classes in GW2. Each one is a DPS class that is only defined by it’s gimmick:

• Warriors – Can build Adrenaline
• Guardians – Can give people Aegis
• Mesmers – Clones and Phantasms
• Thieves – Can steal from people for an extra attack
• Engineers – Kits and the toolbelt
• Elementalists – Can switch attunements
• Rangers – Have pets that fight with them
• Necromancers – Can shift into Death Shroud

Now yes, WoW classes have similar resource gimmicks with their classes but it’s different. The resources (Runes/Runic Power, Rage, Energy/Chi) are just something to draw upon to perform your role within the group and each class/spec has other defining features within each individual role as well. However there is only one role though in GW2. To make an analogy it would be like each WoW class is a different flavor of ice cream while in Guild Wars 2 everything is a variant of vanilla. And like such it gets boring and stale quickly.

critickitten.1498:

Kurakura.7281:

I totally agree.
GW1 had very distinct variations between the gameplay across the 10 professions. GW2 is more like…. most ranged is the same, most melee is the same.

Erm, wat?

No, they really didn’t. In fact, the dual profession system only blurred the lines between professions even more.

It was entirely possible for me to run a very effective necromancer leeching build on my ranger. Or a ritualist spirit build. Or a scythe build, or even a dagger build. All while still having the primary purpose of playing a Barrage ranger.

GW1’s profession lines are far more blurry than WoW, to be honest.

Whereas in GW2, I am never confused when I see another player. I can tell precisely what prof that player is, just by watching him in action. I see a pet, I know he’s a ranger. Turrets? Engineer. Clones pop up, it’s a mesmer. There’s never a question of which prof I’m looking at.

And what makes this game work for me is the fact that all of these distinct professions can perform a lot of the same roles, just in different ways. To those not paying attention, that just seems like “everyone’s the same”. To those who are, it’s the sign of a game which has done away with defined roles and is allowing everybody to play the game the way they want to play it, without being shoved forcibly into the situation of “you’re running this build because we need an X in our party”.

And that’s honestly not a bad thing. It’s just a lot different than you’re used to.

Honestly it’s a moot point. Every class’s role is “deal damage” even if it’s through a gimmick like kits, clones, or pets. With no defining trinity roles the gimmicks that form the backbones of classes are pointless window dressing, nothing more.

Wethospu.6437:

Bosses are boring because they are so easy you don’t have to care about their mechanics.

You’re half right. They have no mechanics to care about. Kiting, doding, and massive HP pools are not mechanics.

HiddenNick.7206:

Vasham.2408:

HiddenNick.7206:

FourthVariety.5463:

Interesting game mechanics need to be programmed on a per boss basis. High HP are just one value to edit.

Part of it is the lack of trinity. If you have a trinity system, it can be rubber stamped onto every encounter and no matter how boring it is, the encounter retains the trinity mechanics of players being cross-dependent. GW2 does not have this option. While the game has some bosses who have interesting game mechanics, there are far too many to expect a custom programmer’s job be done on every single one of them.

Trinity mechanic is only interesting from healers perspective (and tanks in far smaller degree). Others just stand in one spot and hit all their skills as fast as they can… From their perspective it is far less interesting then Gw2 system because they can’t die.

Have you ever actually played a real MMO?

What do you mean by “real MMO”?

One with combat that doesn’t consist of mindlessly blowing cooldowns, or one with boss encounters that aren’t just trash mobs with ridiculous health pools, or one with real PVE progression that’s an actual challenge.

You know, one not like Guild Wars 2.

HiddenNick.7206:

FourthVariety.5463:

Interesting game mechanics need to be programmed on a per boss basis. High HP are just one value to edit.

Part of it is the lack of trinity. If you have a trinity system, it can be rubber stamped onto every encounter and no matter how boring it is, the encounter retains the trinity mechanics of players being cross-dependent. GW2 does not have this option. While the game has some bosses who have interesting game mechanics, there are far too many to expect a custom programmer’s job be done on every single one of them.

Trinity mechanic is only interesting from healers perspective (and tanks in far smaller degree). Others just stand in one spot and hit all their skills as fast as they can… From their perspective it is far less interesting then Gw2 system because they can’t die.

Have you ever actually played a real MMO?

There is nothing hard about Fractals other than stacking Agony resistance. It’s 2005 all over again stacking Fire Resistance for Molten Core, but less fun.

That’s the price you pay for removing the holy trinity. No mechanics, no strategy, nothing but high HP pools and fake difficulty.

Sylv.5324:

OP, this is my advice.

Take your time doing everything there is to do in the game, and don’t pay attention to level.

By the time you’re done it ALL, another expansion that focuses on later-level content will come out. ANet focused its development on the 1-80 experience (though most of the dungeons are meant to be post-80 content, as the skins are all level 80!) in order to give it the depth that many other new MMOs lack.

The future xpacs are meant to address post-80 stuff.

ANet is taking its time to try to do it right. I’d rather see multiple starter areas and stories than just one, like most MMOs besides WoW have been, and a bunch of dungeons that people burn through.

See there’s a problem with this attitude. There was a little known game called SWTOR that came out recently. Small budget title, relatively unknown developer and publisher. They released their MMO assuming the fact it focused on story over endgame content would carry it until they could release more content down the line. By the end of the first month most of their player base had quit because there was nothing to do.

GW2 is headed down this road. Replace “focus on story” with “everything is endgame” and you’ve got the the same issue in a different package. Could Arenanet be saving some massive, uber entertaining endgame content for release? Sure they could. Will it be too late if they don’t act fast? You’re kitten right it will be.

Red Falcon.8257:

Vasham.2408:

WoW is the industry standard, so there’s nothing wrong with using it for comparison. For all the zealots like to fling poo at it’s mention they have to accept that GW2 needs to stand up to WoW in terms of quality in order to stay afloat. Right now though GW2 has a one ton weight around it’s ankles dragging it deeper and deeper into irrelevance every day while WoW continues to recover and grow after an admittedly bad expansion pack.

That’s not even remotely true.
Soccer doesn’t need to “stand up” to basket, they’re different sports for different people.
Similarly, GW2 is a different game than WoW and needs to appeal to different people, it makes no sense to compare the two beside mentioning they’re both online games.

This argument would make perfect sense if GW2 was a game in a different genre. It’s not because like WoW it is an MMORPG. This means GW2 must recognize WoW as it’s direct competition.

WoW is only the standard for theme park, grind-based, P2P MMOs.
Any game outside those standards won’t pick from the playerbase of Blizzard so they don’t need to care about any comparison with WoW.

But GW2 is a theme park, grind-based B2P MMO. One differing factor does not disqualify it from being in the same genre. They do need to care, especially with Blizzard’s upcoming content they’ve announced. Lack of a subscription is not enough for most people to keep them playing GW2. Content will define it’s future, and it’s failing in that regard on all fronts.

GW2 itself got his playerbase from people that was unsatisfied with traditional MMOs – it would be pretty naive to say it needs to stand up to a game its userbase was tired of.

You assume everyone who bought GW2 played other MMOs or stopped playing those MMOs. I play WoW and GW2 because it isn’t an extra impact on my budget. I know people who play GW2 alongside other MMOs like EVE and Rift. Likewise others I knew never played an MMO before. Many of them have since quit. I’m abstaining until changes are made to GW2, personally.

You also forgot that the vast majority of GW2’s remaining yet dwindling population are GW1 veterans, not converts or genre newcomers.

My family owns a restaurant and rest assured they don’t compare themselves to McDonald.
They cater to people who like healthy food, people who like trash food will always go to McDonalds anyways.

“Everyone who likes the other guy likes trash.”

This is what you’re saying. Class act right here. Subtle insults toward the people who disagree with you aren’t going to make people take you seriously.

phys.7689:

lothefallen.7081:

phys.7689:

Przemek.6835:

Osculim.2983:

No thank you no trinity otherwise i would play other mmos but im not.

couple of reasons :

1st you have healers and tanks thinking they are more important than everyone else in a group which in turns breeds a horrible community.

2nd There is no way in wow that a dps player get a quick group you always wait much longer than a tank or healer.

Also whats the point of standing still in a fight thats the most boring thing in other mmos for me doesnt matter what you do you always gets hit that is just not realistic its like standing still in front of a person with a gun and just wait for him to shoot you and hoping for the best.

It is not as if you didnt know that there is not gonna be a trinity either if that was your thing why switch to another mmo. If the wow type machanics is your thing then play wow that is the exact same reason i moved to guildwars the trinity is not my thing so i left wow and im happy.

Speaking about the realism… how realistic downstate is? You lay down and raise your hand so you can magically get back to fight endless times?

I won’t comment on finding party because I haven’t tried much yet. Looking at other posts tho it seems that finding one is easier with certain classes/specs. For me it doesn’t matter if I have to look longer because bleeds dont stack past 25 or because they already have 3 dpsers.

Looking at your post you are another one that thinks trinitiy=wow and thats the game on wnich you are basing your opinion. Well than I did every raid and dungeon in that crappy game and I hardly ever stood still during encounter, and I only stood still because I couldnt cast while moving and every second of not casting counts as dps loss.

On a side, in WoW after every encounter I knew I could have played better. I messed spell priority a bit, or I popped my cds a while too fast. I don’t have that feeling in gw2 there is no self improvement.

have you ever done any group content? or are you basing this soley off the open world events? If you did dungeons or fractals higher than 10, and didnt feel any teamwork, or see the importance of your build, playstyle and how well you execute, you were probably being carried by a team, because even ascalon catacombs can be pretty harsh without people who know what they are doing and how to effectively deal with situations, beyond a dps race.

I did a dungeon naked with my Guardian + Hammer and went AFK on bosses with 1 on auto and never died. Cleared the dungeon, got almost 70 silver, tokens, loot, and only had to move my character to the bossfights. Didn’t have to communicate with my team at all. Didn’t have a role, i just sat there, put down wards, and never died. I washed the dishes, watched a few youtube videos and made a bagel with cream cheese and capers all while auto-piloting.

Yeah, this is part of the reason why implementing a more solid trinity or direct healer class would improve this game socially, depth wise, and design wise. Then maybe the team could design an encounter in which the boss had real difficulty not just a health bar in scientific notation and 1HKO you had to dodge out of once ever 25 seconds.

Do people defending the game as it is not play it? Are they even lv 80 yet?

what you just talked about defines being carried, and you can carry people in every single MMO out there, so i dunno what your point is other than you take advantage of people/friends

So because his class is so unbalanced he can practically solo every dungeon ingame while afk that means, apparently, he was carried? If anything everyone else was carried since he was playing one of Arenanet’s three favored classes and brought enough power to the group solo, while afk, to kill everything and hold aggro.

You have an odd definition of carried.

McSlappy.1372:

Jandus.2834:

Vasham.2408:

projectcedric.6951:

Vasham.2408:

projectcedric.6951:

What do you mean ‘needs to come back’?

Its not like you bought it knowing it has a trinity system, and then they changed it. This game never had a trinity system as far as I know.

Do you know what is the cost of redesigning the classes to become a trinity system (assuming you are right that trinity is better)? Might as well make a new game.

That being said, I still don’t understand why would you force yourself on GW2 if you liked the trinity system and you know that this game doesn’t have it.

I didn’t force myself onto anything. I knew this game wouldn’t have the trinity and I was naive enough to think Arenanet would be capable of making it work. Clearly my hope was misplaced.

Clearly it was.

So what are you still doing here?

As a dissatisfied customer it is my right to voice my dissatisfaction and advise the creator of said sub-par product how to improve and maybe win back my support.

Sure it is. But to think for a second that Anet is going to totally revamp the fundamental game mechanics that the game is built upon is just totally naive. If you truly believe the game is broken because of the lack of a trinity then don’t play. <shrug>

/cough Ascended gear /cough

You forgot how GW2 is a grind free grinding game. Or how the endgame starts at level one…since the endgame doesn’t exist.

JoakimFA.4713:

What is this “endgame” you speak of?

Here, lemme reword that in a manner that better reflects the issue at hand.

JoakimFA.4713:

What endgame?

There we go.

Fox.3469:

Funny how people from both sides only react to what they can counter, check my previous post at the top and react, i dare you.

You can’t…

I’ll take that bet.

I don’t want “heal” “dps” “tank” and that’s it, i want my playstile to mean something and it does right now, people playing the same class can play it totally different and still do kind of simular things, it’s a personal system, instead of “if you want to dps, do this, it’s the way to go”

There are no roles in this game other than DPS. Your playstyle means nothing because it’s all the same role with different window dressing.

GW2 is about creativity and anticipation, wow is about execution.

The only way “creativity” can be used properly discussing GW2’s class build system is if you call it “creatively bankrupt.” DPS with some gimmick skills, that’s all you are. If you’re a class the devs don’t favor (ie: not a Warrior, Guardian, or Mesmer) then you’re even less than that.

So wow and GW2, wich one? it’s up to you, choose, but don’t try to make them the same game, they can be different, that’s why we have this choice in the first place. I don’t want wow to die and i don’t want GW2 to die, i want to be able to freely choose where to put my time in. If GW2 goes trinity it will die, cause that’s something wow has mastered, and then we won’t have the luxury of choice.

Everything we have to go by tells us that GW2 is already dyeing. Adding the trinity won’t magically kickstart it’s demise, rather it might save it by adding solid PVE design and challenging content therein. If you chose to stick with a sinking ship don’t complain when you drown after refusing to patch the hole in it’s side.

Kausion.9384:

Nayru.4537:

What you will find on the forums is a lot of blind fanboyism, they often lie to try to defend this game, try not to pay too much attention to it.

Anyway, it’s kind of interesting how people think tank, heal, dps = WoW.

Shows how much WoW has the upper hand in this market.

Who says holy trinity means WoW? A lot of people have left the game due to the boring combat in GW2. Lack of roles played a huge part in that.

True. I only referenced WoW because I believe it sets the standard for endgame PVE. It is true, however, that many other games have it right as well. I left WoW as a result of being burned out and I love GW2. I am just a realist. GW2 has some serious changes to make in PVE.

WoW is the industry standard, so there’s nothing wrong with using it for comparison. For all the zealots like to fling poo at it’s mention they have to accept that GW2 needs to stand up to WoW in terms of quality in order to stay afloat. Right now though GW2 has a one ton weight around it’s ankles dragging it deeper and deeper into irrelevance every day while WoW continues to recover and grow after an admittedly bad expansion pack.

Red Falcon.8257:

Kausion.9384:

Vasham you are correct on all fronts, although from what I have read few seem to understand. The simple fact is that GW2’s PVE is egregiously inferior to WoW, Rift, etc. I know it is blasphemous to say this because GW2 “revolutionized MMO’s” and we no longer have to be “subjected to the grindfest gear treadmills that are all other MMO’s,” but let’s look at the facts. PVE is a mess. The trinity was replaced by no real substitute as has been discussed on numerous threads on this forum, and the mechanics of the fights are laughable when compared to Blizzard’s fights. Call WoW a gear treadmill all you want but you are either a fool or someone with no serious endgame PVE experience if you seriously suggests ANet’s PVE meets the bar. Vasham has covered the implications of this as well. The player base is defined by PVE players and I do not see anything sustainable right now. This game could be great but ANet did not have to abandon what WORKED in other MMO’s.

Disclaimer: I am a former WoW raider with realm first world top 50-100 kills for 6 straight tiers. You can hate on Blizzard all you want but you can not deny that they masterfully design amazing encounters, something ANet has not come remotely close to.

Interesting.

As an old person with a certain degree of skill and 20 years of MMO experience, I found WoW PvE -especially the trinity- to be the pinnacle of autopilot easymode watch-tv-while-raiding mess.
GW2 PvE at least require you to dodge and block manually (which is automatic in WoW), requires position/warding/BB to block mobs whereas in WoW it’s a mere calculation (threat) that you build by using threat buttons, is reaction-based while WOW is as easy as “memorize this rotation and do it”.

Blizzard’s simple-minded design of encounters and simplistic, brain-dead combat system that requires no skill makes it seem they are directing their game to kids in the ages 8-12.
I ran all WoW had to offer and everything was terribly easy and straight-forward, whereas in GW2 I found some challenges even in PvE.

See, this is my opinion (like yours) and I didn’t even need to put it down as a fact as you did which gives it more value and credibility.

Remember my statement about how no one who sees the trinity in such a simplistic light cannot possibly be experienced enough to understand why it’s a superior system? Good example right here. Also, you said earlier in the thread:

Been playing MMOs for 15 years and no trinity game requires a quarter of skill that GW2 does – especially those where tank and healer gimmick the whole fight.

So apparently this thread has been going on for five years? News to me.

Kausion.9384:

Vasham has already shot down this argument that is used often by people like you. I don’t know what your 20 “years of experience” comprised of but it obviously was not serious endgame raiding. To seriously suggest that it is “autopilot easymode” is ludicrous. You are seriously suggesting that players could watch TV and eat while pushing for top kills of Yogg 0-light. Let’s be serious.

Some people cleared Scarlet Monestary and believe that makes them an authority on the intricacies of PVE progression and the holy trinity, I guess.

critickitten.1498:

Vasham.2408:

That’s why the successful MMOs have learned to make multiple versions of content that everyone can experience, but can still be skin rippingly difficult based on the setting. It appeals to everyone without leaving one group unsatisfied. The problem here is what can you do to make GW2’s content more challenging?

More HP on mobs? It’s already too high

Mobs hitting harder? With only two dodge rolls before needing to recharge that’s not viable.

I already covered how Agony is bullcrap, so no more needs to be said.

See what I mean? Without a solid foundation to design encounters around, without something more than “dodge and kite” there is no way Arenanet can appeal to anyone but the most ubercasual players. That’s fine, but even casual players want more at some point. I may be into hardcore content but I never underestimate a casual player’s desire to challenge themselves, a mistake Arenanet is making right now. They assume casuals will be content with this boring, ultra easy PVE for all time. The truth is they won’t be.

I dunno about this notion that they’re only appealing to casual players. I would most definitely argue that notion, considering just how much of the game is rendered too difficult or time-consuming for truly casual players….but that’s besides the point.

I actually thought that Fractals was a step in the right direction: bosses that have some sort of “trick” to them, in the vein of classic Zelda bosses. Okay, they’re not “difficult” in the modern sense, but they’re still a heck of a lot more fun than the previous bosses. I think if they rebuild all dungeons to be more like Fractals, that’ll be a positive step for the game.

GW2’s content is very casual, almost insultingly so. It’s less casual and more “we assume our players are idiots.” There is no real challenge so much as there is extreme tedium. High HP pools on mobs to burn through, instant kill moves with no telegraph for when to dodge, Lengendaries where the only thing legendary is the grind to aquire them.

Fractals added gimmicks and an resistance gear check, but no challenge outside artifical difficulty. It’s quite frankly not enough.

Megido.5061:

Why do you keep making this thread? it pops up every few months, the collective community tears you a new kitten but the OP’s sheer bigotry negates any semblance of thought that isn’t horribly fallacious in its logic. Anet isn’t about to tear apart the entirety of their combat engine to play to your ridiculous fascination in such a tired system. The entire proposal is ridiculous; as if any company with even a fraction of a brain would go to make such radical changes on the whim of a single player’s opinion. Go play Tera if you want GW2 combat with the old trinity.

Problems with this statement:

• This is my first time making a thread about this, and I’m not the only one who has. It’s a valid concern and you can’t just toss it aside because you disagree.
• You don’t know how to use the word bigotry properly.
• You also don’t know much about logical fallacies either, though there’s plenty of ad hominem in your post
• I think Tera is morally reprehensible for reasons I won’t mention here in the name of decency and not going on an off topic rant.

critickitten.1498:

Vasham.2408:

It’s not about masochism, it’s the desire to be challenged and to overcome those challenges. There’s a reason WoW, even with it’s pug friendly Looking for Raid has a market for Heroic Mode raids and why Rift with it’s audience releases PVE content that’s a challenge to overcome. You can argue that we’re the minority among PVE players and I wouldn’t say you are wrong, but other developers have shown their ability to release not only content for the masses but also content for those who crave difficult endgame. Hell Rift’s entire niche in the market is due to it’s sole focus on a singular endgame difficulty.

See, that’s the thing. I do enjoy challenges and overcoming them, but I’ve never understood why people put such a tremendous emphasis on them to the point where the game becomes TOO difficult for most players to digest. That sort of design doesn’t make sense to me.

I don’t disagree that GW2’s challenges aren’t at that same level of difficulty, but I’m not actually sure that’s a bad thing, either.

As for Agony, I think it shouldn’t exist at all, to be honest.

That’s why the successful MMOs have learned to make multiple versions of content that everyone can experience, but can still be skin rippingly difficult based on the setting. It appeals to everyone without leaving one group unsatisfied. The problem here is what can you do to make GW2’s content more challenging?

More HP on mobs? It’s already too high

Mobs hitting harder? With only two dodge rolls before needing to recharge that’s not viable.

I already covered how Agony is bullcrap, so no more needs to be said.

See what I mean? Without a solid foundation to design encounters around, without something more than “dodge and kite” there is no way Arenanet can appeal to anyone but the most ubercasual players. That’s fine, but even casual players want more at some point. I may be into hardcore content but I never underestimate a casual player’s desire to challenge themselves, a mistake Arenanet is making right now. They assume casuals will be content with this boring, ultra easy PVE for all time. The truth is they won’t be.

critickitten.1498:

Vasham.2408:

So I was farting around earlier and something came to mind to try and show you people the error of your ways in defending GW2’s poor PVE design. This, as you know, is the Jade Maw encounter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcKG4IJD6X4

These guys went in completely blind and killed the boss in a single attempt. The encounter is simple:

• Phase 1 – Kill tentacles
• Phase 2 – Kill Jade Colossi
• Phase 3 – Kill the Jade Maw
• All Phases – Dodge the beam or catch it with reflecting crystals. Throw them back at the Maw to damage it. Repeat, then collect loot.

I don’t mention agony because let’s face it, agony on that boss is more a hard gating mechanic than anything which requires skill to avoid. Now having shown you that, let’s look at another tentacle monster from another game, Akylios: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efUmhV3V80U

And because a lot of what’s going on doesn’t make sense if you never fought him, here’s his strategy: http://www.endgameguides.com/Rift/Raids/Hammerknell/13

This kill came after nearly a month of attempts to learn the encounter.

This is what I mean by saying the lack of a trinity can’t support complex, challenging encounter design. Considering Trion released that fight on their second major content patch for their first MMO ever and Arenanet is still making simplistic content with their second content patch fast approaching on their second MMO to date it says a lot about Arenanet’s commitment to good game design.

Er, so it’s considered “good game design” to create content that requires an entire month to formulate a strategy for?

I mean, I like difficult games….within reason (i.e. not Dark Souls)….but that doesn’t sound like good design to me. But then, I was never a masochistic sort of gamer, and I don’t understand why people like to torture themselves in that fashion.

It’s not about masochism, it’s the desire to be challenged and to overcome those challenges. There’s a reason WoW, even with it’s pug friendly Looking for Raid has a market for Heroic Mode raids and why Rift with it’s audience releases PVE content that’s a challenge to overcome. You can argue that we’re the minority among PVE players and I wouldn’t say you are wrong, but other developers have shown their ability to release not only content for the masses but also content for those who crave difficult endgame. Hell Rift’s entire niche in the market is due to it’s sole focus on a singular endgame difficulty.

And that’s why we have a problem with the prospect of never facing PVE that’s a real challenge. Kiting and dodging isn’t a challenge, massive HP pools aren’t a challenge, and Agony isn’t a challenge. The latter is especially bad since without it Fractals would be steamrolled even on the higher levels. It’s artificial difficulty at it’s worst, a resistance based gating mechanic Blizzard realized ages ago isn’t worth the hassle compared to fights that are legitimately hard to beat. There’s a reason WoW hasn’t had a resistance based encounter for the last three expansions.

Could Arenanet fix the problem without adding the trinity to GW2? Maybe, but the chances are slim to none. It would take creative encounter design on a level I’m not sure they have or are willing to commit to and even then without that necessary foundation it still couldn’t compare to more popular MMOs in terms of difficulty.

So I was farting around earlier and something came to mind to try and show you people the error of your ways in defending GW2’s poor PVE design. This, as you know, is the Jade Maw encounter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcKG4IJD6X4

These guys went in completely blind and killed the boss in a single attempt. The encounter is simple:

• Phase 1 – Kill tentacles
• Phase 2 – Kill Jade Colossi
• Phase 3 – Kill the Jade Maw
• All Phases – Dodge the beam or catch it with reflecting crystals. Throw them back at the Maw to damage it. Repeat, then collect loot.

I don’t mention agony because let’s face it, agony on that boss is more a hard gating mechanic than anything which requires skill to avoid. Now having shown you that, let’s look at another tentacle monster from another game, Akylios: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efUmhV3V80U

And because a lot of what’s going on doesn’t make sense if you never fought him, here’s his strategy: http://www.endgameguides.com/Rift/Raids/Hammerknell/13

This kill came after nearly a month of attempts to learn the encounter.

This is what I mean by saying the lack of a trinity can’t support complex, challenging encounter design. Considering Trion released that fight on their second major content patch for their first MMO ever and Arenanet is still making simplistic content with their second content patch fast approaching on their second MMO to date it says a lot about Arenanet’s commitment to good game design.

Maybe another zone with no content that is the end result of three days of unforgivable amounts of server lag and unfixable bugs for a “one time event.” I mean why not, Lost Shores was such a smashing success.

Konfuzfanten.6503:

Vasham.2408:

It’s a well known fact that GW2’s PVE is horrible.

And its a well known fact that ppl that are horribad at GW2 PvE thinks that GW2 PvE is horribad.

This thread, as a lot of the “we-want-trinity-back” threads boils down to players that cant play without someone carrying them or a heal/tank crutch. Saying that standard trinity MMO dungeons requires “skills” is a mockery of the word skill. 95% of all trinity MMO dungeons is about gear, as soon as you got the gear everything turns into a snoozefest.

I have played a lot of the top end dungeons in the most populare MMOs and skill wise they aint challenging, get the right gear, a proper MT and a main healer and go afk watching TV. Yes playing MT does require some skill, mostly placement of the boss/pulls and you got to control the encounters but everyone else just stands around doing what their addons tells them…

So rather than try to give actual points to your view you insult everyone who disagrees with you? Class act right here.

Hinoreth.5978:

What is “Advanced” about standing around and spamming “taunt”? While someone else stands around and spams “Heal” and still another spams “Attack”?

I’ve said it before and it still stands true: to view the trinity on such shallow, ignorant terms doesn’t say much about you as an MMO gamer. Just because the basics of a role can be boiled down to a single word doesn’t mean it lacks complexity and doesn’t necessitate skill.

I could also ask what’s so “advanced” about “damage, damage, and more damage?” That’s GW2 in a nutshell. One role for everyone with the illusion of doing something more and having a “choice” of your playstyle.

Are the fights in GW2 chaotic for the most part? Sure. I personally find it fun and a whole lot less boring than what you typically get with the trinity-based games that I have grown overly tired of though.

Again, saying trinity based fights are purely static and boring shows your lack of experience and inability to make an educated argument. Tell me with a straight face that this fight isn’t chaotic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RMVAN-w1Ek
This is the Lich King fight on it’s easiest difficulty (10-man normal). Now compare that to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CmZ5O_XjKs
Only the first phase of Zhaitan kind of compares because, like phase 1 Lich King it’s an add rush. The rest is so dull and boring it’s mind boggling. If this encounter had the trinity supporting it we could have been up in Zhaitan’s face rather than spamming 2 for twenty minutes.

Kind of amusing how you bring up Dungeons and Fractals and whatnot—I hated raids in WoW…huge, boring wastes of time. You didn’t even get decent rewards unless you ran them over and over again and then roll a die if something for your class dropped (hopefully you had enough DKP to even get to roll). I find the GW2 dungeons refreshing and fun and run them constantly with friends.

Bolding for emphasis on where you destroyed your own counterpoint. How is RNG drops any different from grinding dungeons in GW2 for tokens? Let’s not forget that advancing in Fractals requires, you guessed it, RNG loot drops. Yes you can get tokens to buy rings now once every 10 dungeons, but how is that different from Justice/Valor points in WoW?

Protip: It’s not.

Some people like turn-based RPGs a la Final Fantasy and some people like dodge and fight RPGs like Dark Souls. They buy/play whichever version of play they like. It makes no sense at all to hop onto the Dark Souls forums and demand they remake the game because you only like turn-based play. This is basically what you are doing here. The game was advertised from the start that there would be no Trinity. You came into the game knowing this, tried it and didn’t like it. It’s time to move on. other folks like the play style just fine, despite your doom saying.

I’ve said it before and will say it again. I knew there would be no trinity, and I honestly throught that Arenanet would be competent enough to pull it off. I don’t see change as a bad thing, but you can’t change things just for the sake of change. Removing the trinity feels like that in the long run, change for change’s sake and not for any attempt at innovation.

Also, lol @ comparing GW2 to Dark Souls. No one who consider’s GW2’s combat mechanics good plays Dark Souls. Or if they do they’re terrible at it.

Death Reincarnated.3570:

Trinity=wheel

GW2=re-designed the wheel

The trinity is still there, but more elaborate.

In redesigning the wheel, however, Arenanet turned a circle into a square and didn’t stop to ask, “Is our cart going to be able to move.”

Sure, the cart can move. It’s clunky, inefficient, and is really only being done to be “different.” There’s a specific reason the wheel hasn’t been redesigned, and that’s because it works so well it doesn’t need to be.

I’d also question a system that’s “more elaborate” when only three out of eight classes are desired for any content because the roles classes posses are so samey that damage delt is the only thing that separates them.

Jandus.2834:

Vasham.2408:

projectcedric.6951:

Vasham.2408:

projectcedric.6951:

What do you mean ‘needs to come back’?

Its not like you bought it knowing it has a trinity system, and then they changed it. This game never had a trinity system as far as I know.

Do you know what is the cost of redesigning the classes to become a trinity system (assuming you are right that trinity is better)? Might as well make a new game.

That being said, I still don’t understand why would you force yourself on GW2 if you liked the trinity system and you know that this game doesn’t have it.

I didn’t force myself onto anything. I knew this game wouldn’t have the trinity and I was naive enough to think Arenanet would be capable of making it work. Clearly my hope was misplaced.

Clearly it was.

So what are you still doing here?

As a dissatisfied customer it is my right to voice my dissatisfaction and advise the creator of said sub-par product how to improve and maybe win back my support.

Sure it is. But to think for a second that Anet is going to totally revamp the fundamental game mechanics that the game is built upon is just totally naive. If you truly believe the game is broken because of the lack of a trinity then don’t play. <shrug>

“No criticism. No questioning glorious leader Arenanet. Find the game perfect or leave.”

Sounds like the SWTOR forums. We all saw how well that game did with fanboys touting this kind of attitude.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Honestly, it is still in the game. I can specc my Mesmer to facetank most mobs. The trinity is gone in terms of class roles. It is not gone in terms of gameplay.
I can specc my Mesmer to be a healer. Or a tank. Or a supporter. Or a damage dealer.
If you want to play as a trinity, get some players, coordinate setups and builds and you will be fine.

I’ve noticed this too. Guardians and Warriors seem to attract a lot of aggro, at least when I run Explorables and Fractals. It’s egregious enough that one starts to think why they bothered to remove only a third of the trinity (healing) and taunt skills. It was probably a last minute design choice, but such things seem to be the defacto approach to development at Arenanet.

projectcedric.6951:

Give me a break, dude.

You think they gonna do it? They’re not gonna do it. Even if you were right, who’s crazy enough to go change all the skills, class balances and battle system at this point – especially when it basically means redesigning the WHOLE kitten game.

Now two things may happen. It may go like you say, and game closes within a couple of months. OR. People like it and they still be playing.

Either way, you can’t control it, man. What the hell is the point of all of this?

I know they won’t do it. Arenanet has proven they’re not good at admitting mistakes. Loot DR, Trahearne, Zhaitan being a “spam 2 to win” fight, Ree’s horrible writing, poor rewards from meta events. All things they did wrong but would never admit to, let alone correct.

Still, I won’t be the one out of a job over it.

Hobocop.1508:

I wouldn’t call simply dropping everything that they’ve already built in favor of a hard trinity an improvement.

The core mechanics they have in place right now are solid. It needs refinement and expansion, along with content that actually takes advantage of said mechanics, much like what the trinity has already gone through for many, many years already.

You can’t build a skyscraper on mud and expect it to remain standing. That is the issue here. Innovation for innovation’s sake won’t fix anything, just cause more problems as we’ve seen the past few months.

projectcedric.6951:

What exactly do you intend to gain by persistently disseminating your negativity and disgruntlement around here?

That they would refund your 60 dollars?

That they would change the game according to what YOU thing is right?

That the game would belly-up as soon as you seem to be hoping it would to prove your point of how much a failure it is?

I mean, I don’t wanna poke my nose in people’s businesses, but most people come to the forums to discuss things, find some info, ask around, maybe rage a little after a bad game day.. and everybody gets something for their time.

But you come here almost everyday just to trash the game. And as far as I know, nothing has been changed much according to what you and people who voice the same as you do say. How long as it been, man? I mean, again, maybe its none of my business- but don’t you have better things to do with your time?

And please. Win back YOUR support? WTS man, who the F do you think you are?

I am discussing something. You appear to dislike me discussing it.

Coffeebot.3921:

Here’s a challenge for you OP, name one game with the holy trinity that a) Wished it were WoW by virtue of it’s mechanics and play style and b) Didn’t rely on a gear based revolving door to force people use the trinity.

Guild Wars 1

Coldtart.4785:

The trinity in other mmos takes absolutely zero skill. So long as you know what you have to do and when and your gear is up to par, you cannot fail. You may as well play DDR on your keyboard.

I find this statement funny. Anyone who makes this remark clearly has zero experience in true endgame content in other MMOs. Have you ever killed Algalon the Observer? Maybe Akylios? How about any boss from Final Fantasy 11? I would wager any player who says the trinity takes zero skill probably played WoW to level thirty and quit.

The most basic of endgame encounters in any other MMO you can mention put GW2 to shame in terms of challenge and skill requirement. This isn’t an opinion, it’s a fact.

projectcedric.6951:

Vasham.2408:

projectcedric.6951:

What do you mean ‘needs to come back’?

Its not like you bought it knowing it has a trinity system, and then they changed it. This game never had a trinity system as far as I know.

Do you know what is the cost of redesigning the classes to become a trinity system (assuming you are right that trinity is better)? Might as well make a new game.

That being said, I still don’t understand why would you force yourself on GW2 if you liked the trinity system and you know that this game doesn’t have it.

I didn’t force myself onto anything. I knew this game wouldn’t have the trinity and I was naive enough to think Arenanet would be capable of making it work. Clearly my hope was misplaced.

Clearly it was.

So what are you still doing here?

As a dissatisfied customer it is my right to voice my dissatisfaction and advise the creator of said sub-par product how to improve and maybe win back my support.

projectcedric.6951:

What do you mean ‘needs to come back’?

Its not like you bought it knowing it has a trinity system, and then they changed it. This game never had a trinity system as far as I know.

Do you know what is the cost of redesigning the classes to become a trinity system (assuming you are right that trinity is better)? Might as well make a new game.

That being said, I still don’t understand why would you force yourself on GW2 if you liked the trinity system and you know that this game doesn’t have it.

I didn’t force myself onto anything. I knew this game wouldn’t have the trinity and I was naive enough to think Arenanet would be capable of making it work. Clearly my hope was misplaced.

As for the cost of redesign? That’s not my problem. Arenanet is the one that needs to add some structure to their PVE or face the consequences of a declining playerbase.

It’s a well known fact that GW2’s PVE is horrible. Trash mobs have ridiculous health pools, boss strategies consist of nothing more than “kite and dodge” with singular gimmicks if you’re lucky. Event bosses, meant to replace raiding, are mindless zergfests with no strategy involved (Risen High Priests) or giant monsters that sit in one place and roar at you helplessly while you kill them with zero resistance or challenge (the dragon encounters, also Zhaitan). It doesn’t help that the loot from all of this is either non existent or just plain sucks.

There’s a simple reason why this is true and will remain an unbreakable constant for GW2’s lifespan as a game. It’s the much touted “no holy trinity” gameplay. Now I know how the responses to this will go:

But Vasham, the trinity just put all the responsibility on the healer and no one else! DPS could sleepwalk through encounters and tanks just had to not die!

False. To say the trinity was that simplistic shows one’s ignorance of PVE mechanics and overall lack of experience in true endgame content. Tanks, DPS, and Healers all had specific sub-duties in encounters, mechanics to watch for, and skills to master beyond their base role in the raid. I would dare say the trinity required a higher skill ceiling than any role a class can play in GW2.

But the trinity forces people into playstyles they don’t like and extends the time it takes to form a group!

False. While a time existed in previous MMOs where to play a certain class meant you played a certain role in the trinity that time has long passed. MMOs with good class balance (read: anything not by Arenanet) have either been released or changed their classes so the one you play isn’t pigeonholed into a specific role. I never met a tank or healer in WoW, Rift, or other games that played those roles exclusively yet didn’t enjoy it. The lack of those roles have turned many players away from GW2, and I can’t blame them.

But the trinity is an old and tired system! This game’s system is new!

New doesn’t mean good, if anything it’s proven the opposite. The lack of the trinity as a solid foundation for encounter design is why GW2 has had such trouble with it’s PVE content. Arenanet made the mistake of viewing the trinity in such shallow terms during development that they forgot why it’s stood the test of time. Without the trinity to provide that basic framework encounters boil down to a murky cloud of damage dealing and kiting. There’s nothing to support more advanced mechanics than the most basic of gimmicks as GW2’s dungeons and events have proved, and the new Fractals dungeon has reinforced that proof.

Deny it all you want, but PVE players are the backbone of a healthy MMO. With GW2’s sPVP in a rapid decline and the pipe dream of esports becoming more unreachable every day Arenanet will need to appease the PVE playerbase to stay afloat. With such poor encounter design limited by a wide eyed dream of a world with no trinity it’s an avenue they are not prepared to deliver on unless drastic change is made to class balance and the trinity is reinstated.

That, or we can look forward to spamming 2 again to kill the next Elder Dragon.

This thread is assuming GW2 isn’t shut down before 2013 is out. The way things are going that’s what we’re going to see happen.

Kacigarka.5176:

Aeth.5348:

So far I’ve Salvaged 7 Rare lvl 80 items and have gotten no ectos. I did not have this problem before… Anyone else having this problem?

So after you salvaged 7 rares and you got unlucky, you just asume that it got nerfed ?

NO? you just got unlucky.

Considering Arenanet’s stance on nerfing ingame monetary gain with DR and drop rate nerfs to make people rely on buying gems it’s a valid concern.

Kuruptz.4782:

Nuka Cola.8520:

there’s no end game. The only end game content i can think of is standing in a city like LA afk, that’s gw2’s end game.

standing in Stormwind / orgrimmar and being afk is boring and not cool places at all

Lion arch is atleast much cooler place to afk Plus its more fun

Difference is in WoW there are actual things to do when not AFKing in Stormwind/Orgrimmar. GW2 doesn’t have the luxury of things to entertain it’s players at level 80.

Angry Joe is part of That Guy With the Glasses and thus loses all credibility as a critic of anything.

Barabbas.8715:

Vasham.2408:

Congratulations. Only two things on your list count as true endgame. So how are you going to justify your argument now?

So you’d rather have to wait until 80 to do most of that? GW2 gives you the freedom to play how you want from the start and is less restrictive like other garbage MMOs that have outlived their usefulness. The entire concept of “endgame” is crap, and should be mostly done away with anyway. But of course the stupid WoW fanboys think endgame is a must and that grinding = endgame. They can’t handle a less restrictive MMO so they kitten about there being no endgame. If they want a gear treadmill they should either play fractals or look elsewhere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Study these and understand why your response is null and void.

To humor you a little though GW2 giving me the freedom to do what I want at 80 is a very novel and welcome concept. The only problem is that there is nothing to do.

Karizee.8076:

Killing the Claw of Jormag feels 100x more epic to me than punching in a rotation to kill tentacles in WoW.

But it sounds like you really like it. Maybe that’s what you should be doing?

I’d be careful telling people to go back to WoW. The way current population trends are showing makes it seem most GW2 players are following that advice.

Karizee.8076:

Vasham.2408:

Karizee.8076:

Ubung.7423:

Ok id like to know where you get your numbers

There ya go!

http://www.wowprogress.com/

34,876 guilds beat one boss in MoP. Just one boss – not the last boss, the first boss.

34,332 were 10 man guilds. That’s 343,332.
2,823 were 25 man guilds. There’s 70,575.

For a grand total of 413,907 players.

They have a 10 million playerbase, that’s 4%. I rounded up to 5% to account for bench players.

I’m just going to be blunt. You don’t know how statistics and data work. This website also does not track raid finder, which is designed for players without guilds and casual players.

This doesn’t change the facts though. GW2 has no endgame. Period. End of story.

Raid finder? The equivalent to raid finder would be the epic outdoor events in GW2 like the dragon encounters and Corrupted God Temple events. Perfect for the casual or unguilded person

There is plenty of endgame in GW2.

Dungeons – collect all dungeon sets, get Dungeon Master achievement
Fractals – see how high you can go, get Ascended gear
Level all crafting disciplines, you can learn all 8 on one character
Mini pets – collect them all
Achievements
Titles
Build a legendary weapon
Jumping Puzzles
WvW – join your server’s Teamspeak, help your server win!
sPvP & tPvP
Exploring, finding/triggering obscure events, open all mini-dungeons
Find and collect all the toys and shapeshifter items in game
Organize or join a raid to take the Temple of Lyssa in Malchor’s Leap or any of the other Corrupted God Temples.
Get a couple friends and try to control the Jump puzzle in Eternal Battlegrounds (I’ve spent many a fine evening doing that, fun skirmishes & mesmer portal play)

Not really sure what you are looking for. Sounds like you just want to advertise for WoW on the GW2 forums.

Stationary dragons and poorly designed Risen Priests are not endgame, they’re overgrown quest mobs. Raid Finder, for all the flak it gets in WoW as easy mode, is harder than any world event boss in GW2 by a long shot. WoW also has world bosses, and in an upcoming patch anyone can join in at any time to get loot (good loot, I’ll add, unlike the Chest of Blues you get here) with the only stipulation being it’s been tagged by your faction.

Now, let’s take apart your list.

Dungeons – This counts as endgame, but they’re buggy and badly designed.
Fractals – Also endgame, but as before buggy and badly designed.
Level all crafting disciplines, you can learn all 8 on one character – Not endgame
Mini pets – Also not endgame
Achievements – Only endgame if it works in association to endgame content.
Titles – Same as achievements
Build a legendary weapon – Endgame only because you need to run dungeons to grind gifts.
Jumping Puzzles – Not endgame.
WvW – Not endgame because you can do it from level 2
sPvP & tPvP – Not endgame because you can do it from level 2
Exploring, finding/triggering obscure events, open all mini-dungeons – Not endgame. Exploration doesn’t count.
Find and collect all the toys and shapeshifter items in game – Not endgame
Organize or join a raid to take the Temple of Lyssa in Malchor’s Leap or any of the other Corrupted God Temples. – See my above rant. Not endgame.
Get a couple friends and try to control the Jump puzzle in Eternal Battlegrounds (I’ve spent many a fine evening doing that, fun skirmishes & mesmer portal play) – Part of WvW, thus it is not endgame.

Congratulations. Only two things on your list count as true endgame. So how are you going to justify your argument now?

Karizee.8076:

Ubung.7423:

Ok id like to know where you get your numbers

There ya go!

http://www.wowprogress.com/

34,876 guilds beat one boss in MoP. Just one boss – not the last boss, the first boss.

34,332 were 10 man guilds. That’s 343,332.
2,823 were 25 man guilds. There’s 70,575.

For a grand total of 413,907 players.

They have a 10 million playerbase, that’s 4%. I rounded up to 5% to account for bench players.

I’m just going to be blunt. You don’t know how statistics and data work. This website also does not track raid finder, which is designed for players without guilds and casual players.

This doesn’t change the facts though. GW2 has no endgame. Period. End of story.

Karizee.8076:

Vasham.2408:

Karizee.8076:

tonyl.5063:

Amra.6028:

tonyl.5063:

No kitten I don’t want a point where any meaningful progression stops. I don’t want it to be possible to “beat” the game and literally run out of stuff to do. That’s how GW2 is designed right now. What point is there to level 80? What do we gain by being level 80 and not being able to level to 81? But hey, maybe if ArenaNet actually described the game better than they did, this would have never been an issue. They marketed the game as a game where the entire game plays like end-game in most MMOs, when in reality, endgame plays like leveling.

I bought a game that was going to be challenging from right when I created my first character, not a game where getting to level 80 just means keep doing the same thing with nothing really meaningful to work towards.

What point is there in watching a movie, what point is there in reading books, why go to work, why do you live if all you get is death at the end? Silly questions.
What you get when leveling is exploration, questing, you keep getting skill points to spend and you do dungeons and PVP/WvW. That’s exactly what you do after you hit max level, so you do the same thing. All game is end game, that’s exactly what they told and what you get.
If you expected a silly powergrind where you’ll always get levels that don’t mean anything but a counter on how much time you spent, I guess you need to go see a doctor.

You’re just not getting it. You can finish exploring the world. You can do every heart and jump puzzle. You can actually run out of content to work on. That’s a death sentence in group based games. Everyone playing relies on other people having something to work towards.

Actual endgame content has to exist, you nee to still have goals at the level cap. This game was marketed as an MMO, so it needs to be treated as one. What you want is basically multiplayer skyrim, while we want stuff you do as a group of people with a common goal, something to work towards with a sense of accomplishment at the end… Unless the idea really was that you can beat the game and then you’re done.

It sounds like you are talking about raids. But what happens when you beat the raid in that other game? Most of it is cheap easy these days.

In WoW after you beat the raids there’s achievements for beating each boss a specific way and a meta-achievement for total dungeon completion that give unique rewards. They’re also bosses that drop better loot based on beating the fight in different ways, like killing a council style boss in an order that makes the fight harder. To say it’s not worth going back just because the content is outdated or “beaten” is incredibly short sighted.

Compare GW2. There’s one way to beat each boss, and 99% of the time it’s “dodge the attack.” There’s so few bosses in this game that actually have strategies outside this method that it’s not worth mentioning. No, the “press 2 to win” strategy on Zhaitan does not count since that’s bad design, not an interesting strategy.

Dungeons have replay value too. You farm the gear also. Working on my TA set now

For long term goals you can make a legendary.

Then we have new content coming every month. End game looks pretty good to me compared to other MMOs.

You grind for gear in WoW raids and dungeons too. They also reward you for completing achievements as I said up above. So far WoW dungeons offer you far more than GW2 dungeons.

Also, new content? Lost Shores was a joke. I have no doubt that January and February’s patches will be equally lousy additions to GW2’s so called “endgame.”

WoW dungeons are brain-dead easy unlike GW2 dungeons which require skill. But it sounds like you really want to play WoW. Here’s a hint, 95% of the people here want to play GW2. You are recruiting on the wrong forums.

I’m not recruiting anyone. I’m making fair comparisons between a poorly made newcomer in the MMO market to the industry standard. Just because the truth is hard for you to swallow doesn’t mean it’s any less true.

Also, don’t even try to say GW2’s dungeons are difficult in any true fashion. There’s plenty of fake difficulty with mob HP pools being stupidly high, buggy encounters and mechanics, and loads of trash mobs, but there’s no true challenge. I would ask you to run a heroic raid in or challege mode dungeon in WoW before spouting uninformed opinions.

Karizee.8076:

tonyl.5063:

Amra.6028:

tonyl.5063:

No kitten I don’t want a point where any meaningful progression stops. I don’t want it to be possible to “beat” the game and literally run out of stuff to do. That’s how GW2 is designed right now. What point is there to level 80? What do we gain by being level 80 and not being able to level to 81? But hey, maybe if ArenaNet actually described the game better than they did, this would have never been an issue. They marketed the game as a game where the entire game plays like end-game in most MMOs, when in reality, endgame plays like leveling.

I bought a game that was going to be challenging from right when I created my first character, not a game where getting to level 80 just means keep doing the same thing with nothing really meaningful to work towards.

What point is there in watching a movie, what point is there in reading books, why go to work, why do you live if all you get is death at the end? Silly questions.
What you get when leveling is exploration, questing, you keep getting skill points to spend and you do dungeons and PVP/WvW. That’s exactly what you do after you hit max level, so you do the same thing. All game is end game, that’s exactly what they told and what you get.
If you expected a silly powergrind where you’ll always get levels that don’t mean anything but a counter on how much time you spent, I guess you need to go see a doctor.

You’re just not getting it. You can finish exploring the world. You can do every heart and jump puzzle. You can actually run out of content to work on. That’s a death sentence in group based games. Everyone playing relies on other people having something to work towards.

Actual endgame content has to exist, you nee to still have goals at the level cap. This game was marketed as an MMO, so it needs to be treated as one. What you want is basically multiplayer skyrim, while we want stuff you do as a group of people with a common goal, something to work towards with a sense of accomplishment at the end… Unless the idea really was that you can beat the game and then you’re done.

It sounds like you are talking about raids. But what happens when you beat the raid in that other game? Most of it is cheap easy these days.

In WoW after you beat the raids there’s achievements for beating each boss a specific way and a meta-achievement for total dungeon completion that give unique rewards. There also bosses that drop better loot based on beating the fight in different ways, like killing a council style boss in an order that makes the fight harder. To say it’s not worth going back just because the content is outdated or “beaten” is incredibly short sighted.

Compare GW2. There’s one way to beat each boss, and 99% of the time it’s “dodge the attack.” There’s so few bosses in this game that actually have strategies outside this method that it’s not worth mentioning. No, the “press 2 to win” strategy on Zhaitan does not count since that’s bad design, not an interesting strategy.

Dungeons have replay value too. You farm the gear also. Working on my TA set now

For long term goals you can make a legendary.

Then we have new content coming every month. End game looks pretty good to me compared to other MMOs.

You grind for gear in WoW raids and dungeons too. They also reward you for completing achievements as I said up above. So far WoW dungeons offer you far more than GW2 dungeons.

Also, new content? Lost Shores was a joke. I have no doubt that January and February’s patches will be equally lousy additions to GW2’s so called “endgame.”

Zookeeper.2513:

There is no real end game at all, except if you count Fractals which pretty much killed all other PvE aspects to the game. I wouldn’t exactly call this game an MMO either. It’s more of an RPG with a multi-player option and group PvP. Even PvP as of late isn’t all that great. sPvP is losing people fast and WvW is pretty much a zerg fest with no real reward for holding anything.

The only thing this game has that is the same is the grind. If you love that part of a game, you’ll love this one.

Bolded the important part of this statement for emphasis. GW2 isn’t an MMO, hence why Arenanet won’t add any true endgame content. The even admitted that GW2 isn’t an MMO awhile back. True endgame is raiding and meaningful structured PVP.

Grinding the same 8 buggy dungeons is not endgame. Exploration is not endgame. Beating on a door for twenty minutes is not endgame. These are facts, not opinions.

Karizee.8076:

Calae.1738:

Arena Net’s current PVE endgame is designed around the lowest common denominator. The end game is brain dead easy. You could be mentally challenged, slam your hand on a one button mouse and be successful.

I don’t imagine there’s too many people that got their Dungeon Master achievement with this method

Only boss that requires you to pay attention is Simin in Arah path 4 because of the stupidly high DPS requirement. Other than her I snored my way through that achievement.

They need to fix the content that came at launch and do something worthwhile with that useless crab island they added. THEN the community will take additional content seriously.

Until then nobody wants it.

Braggo.7819:

this doesnt seem very good then, looks like i wasted £50

That about sums it up.

nofo.8469:

Rannulf.9417:

Vasham.2408:

Rannulf.9417:

Vasham.2408:

Nurse.1085:

I realize Anet must have done something to increase the cap or filtered it out or something, since the other week they all went from Full to Very High.

However, now they’re filling up again and I can’t get on the server my husband and Guild transferred to (which is Tarnished Coast). Neither can my sister-in-law.

Are these servers stuck at Full? Every time I look, it never moves from Full. Any Tarnished Coast members know what times I should be aiming for to camp the World Select screen?

Server status is based on the number of accounts tied to a server, not the number of players actively online. Even if Tarnished Coast was completely empty of players it would still read full. Shame Arenanet chose to lie about their subscriber numbers like that. : /

Not sure if serious or trolling. anet doesn’t have subscribers, and the server status do base on number of players online.

One of the community managers admitted to it being based on number of accounts. Denying the truth won’t change it. It’s probably all Arenanet can do to prevent NCsoft from shutting the game down after it failed.

Show me a link until then you’re a troll.

He’s right. Crawl back into your cave thanks.

I posted the link awhile ago. You clearly haven’t checked back up the thread to look, or read it and are going through the stages of acceptance. Anger and Denial are the first two after all.