Guild Wars 2

A lot of the time, discussions in this forum result in people saying that a Guardian was never intended to X, or Guardians feel like Y, so I thought it would be a good idea to see how the Guardian community sees their (and other’s) Guardians.

I’d also think it would be nice if you explain your choice a bit more. So instead of going: “I think a Guardian fits the wizard archetype because I think it does,” try give examples, mention existing characters or common traits, etc.

As for myself, I think the Guardian fits the following archetypes:

• The Paladin: This one might be obvious, since Guardians share a lot of traits with traditional paladins. Some people (mostly before GW2 came out) say that Guardians’s aren’t paladins, but they’re talking more about gameplay than archetype.
• The Cleric: With clerics, I don’t just mean priests. Yes, they are priests, but they’re also schooled in combat and know their way around a battle-field, although often in supportive roles. The Guardian has a couple of traits that help flesh out this archetype and has access to Maces, which are the traditional weapon of choice.
• The Battle-mage: While I don’t think it’s a perfect fit, the Guardian uses magic to hit people in the face, so some players might be drawn to Guardians for this playstyle.
• The Leader: This somewhat overlaps with the Paladin and the Cleric, but I feel Guardians can be distinct “leaders”, where they use area-control together with shouts to lead a group.

I actually find the Sword pretty good. The first attack hits multiple opponents and triggers Virtue of Justice pretty fast. The third one is a pretty decent burst skill (for a Guardian and the teleport is pretty useful as well, since Guardians don’t have too much in terms of mobility.

It’s also pretty unfair to compare two-handed weapons with one-handers.

What I find especially weird is that you want to play like a knight (Sword/Shield) and find problems with the Sword and not the Shield. Not to mention that I wouldn’t really picture a knight with a heavy AoE-based playstyle.

There have been numerous threads about this already, and I must say that you’re not really bringing anything new to the debate.

The problems you address are there, but I’m not sure if your solutions are that viable/good.

I’d also not call for a buff or a fix. “Buff” has strong emotional connotations and clouds people’s judgment. It also implies that Guardians are too weak (they aren’t) or need to be a lot stronger (they don’t). “Fix” is also not a word I’d use, although this is less strong than buff. There are things about the Guardian that could stand to be fixed, but the overall profession doesn’t need a grand fix. It also implies that the Guardian is completely broken (which it isn’t).

This kinda changes the dynamic of Shelter. The trade-off with Shelter is that you gain less healing, but in exchange got a powerful block. If enough “unblockable” skills exist (and I have no idea how many there are) or the meta shifts towards unblockable attacks, Guardians will be left with no choice of healing skill in sPvP.
Admittedly, this is a “worst-case” scenario.

kidbs.8920:

So basically you’re saying play your best and hope the guardian sucks right? A smart guardian will pace himself as well.

The difference being that a Warrior that paces himself can, when the right opportunity arises, call upon burst that could be enough to end a Guardian, whereas a Guardian who paces himself just dies slowly.

OneManArmy.5617:

If you want to use shouts for condition removers, unfortunately you are forced to use Superior Runes of the Soldier 6 set bonus (Shouts remove a condition) and avoid using Pure voice because it’s a waste of a trait at the moment.
It’s sad that after 6 months this very important trait has not been addressed yet.

The real problem is that Pure of Voice works some of the time, so it takes a while to notice that it doesn’t work on your own. If it was clearly broken, even a newbie would realize and not take it.

OneManArmy.5617:

I don’t think Smite needs to grant any boons,but it needs to be turned into a symbol.
Make it an aoe symbol that can benefit from traits and we are good to go.
Well we could use some projectile speed increase to our scepter autoattack as well.

If Smite becomes a Symbol, it needs a boon and preferably a defensive one. Because that’s what Symbols are: Ground-targeted AoE attacks that pulse damage and (defensive) boons. This is part of the problem in the suggested solution, apart from Vigor or Aegis, there aren’t really a defensive boons left, and I’m not sure if Vigor or Aegis on a relatively short cooldown is such a good idea. What I’d like to see is Swiftness on the Scepter and Regeneration on the Staff, but this leaves the Mace without Regeneration and it fits the Mace really well. And I also wouldn’t want to see the same symbol on the weapons if at all possible.

hithlain.4385:

In PvP maybe, in PvE enemies rarely dodge my attacks
So as there is no player elephant in GW2… I doubt an elephant will dodge… mmm… I don’t think there’s any elephant in GW2…

I think the solution is obvious. In order to make the Scepter viable, there need to be elephants.

Trying to burst down a Guardian who still has all (or most) cooldowns up is going to be futile most of the time.

What you should try to do is go into ranged (which is where Guardians are very, very weak) or try to whittle them down with sustained damage and conditions. When you suspect the cooldowns are down, then go for the burst.

Key-signs to look out for:

• Blue shields. Guardians have a couple of ways of completely negating attacks, but almost all of them can be seen by blue shield floating around. Don’t waste good attacks while these are up. It’s not a case of luck when your CC’s or heavy hitters are blocked.
• Renewed Focus: I don’t know how most Guardians use it, but I only use it when things are going badly (which might be wrong). Anyway, if a Guardian is invulnerable for a while, it means he just renewed his virtues, but also that he just used a powerful cooldown which will not be available for a while. The next time the Guardian heals, that’s probably when you should try for massive burst.
  Lastly, if things are going bad for you, you can always run away and try again later, when all your health and cooldowns are still up. It’s unlikely that the Guardian will be able to catch up on you.

In regards to healing, the main reason Guardians can replenish most of their health pool with one healing skill is that their health tends to be very low to begin with.

Stroper.5134:

So… what about utility skills? I’ve started using Save Your Self (Smite Condition was taken out) which seems to be helping a little, but I don’t know if I should keep Judge’s Intervention or invest skill points in something like Hold The Line.

I should point out that, along with my earlier mentioned problems, I also fail at multi-tasking. I can run around and attack, but buttons 6-0 aren’t getting used as much since I have trouble keeping track of what I’m doing. I figure Shouts provide a semi-long term reason to fight without worrying about timing special attacks.

If you have difficulty remembering to use your utilities, look into Signets. Shouts are also an option, since you don’t have to think too hard about when to use them. Even if you use them inefficiently, you still get a decent use out of them.

JJBigs.8456:

Ynna.8769:

First of all, learn to dodge. Some attacks aren’t worth taking the full brunt of.
Other than that, Mace+Focus prevents a lot of damage, and if you pair it with a Greatsword (or Sword) you have another Blind.

Mace/Focus is also 0 DPS. No one needs a “Tank” that dishes out 0 damage. They need a “tanky” Guardian that can partially tank but also do damage i.e. GreatSword/Hammer/etc..

When you’re just running solo, this doesn’t really matter, and the Mace does fair damage, not 0, like you’re saying. And you never run only one weapon-set.

I don’t understand why Mace/Torch would be such a bad option. It’s not the greatest, but for farming content, it’s pretty reasonable (and I love that you can use the Mace’s block with the number 4 skill on the Torch).

My favorite load-out is Sword/Shield and Hammer. I like using knockbacks (both on the Shield and the Hammer) and than flashing to the person I just knocked back.

I’m not completely sure, but I think it works with allies. The reasons I’m not completely sure is because I always run it using Soldier runes and because some Shouts are bugged.

Why does everyone always assume that when asking for better (viable) ranged options, people are talking about overpowered ’I WIN-buttons"?

The Shield is a great weapon(?), but needs a bit of effort on your part to truly shine. The knockback alone is invaluable in PvP and the fact that there’s a heal attached to it only makes it better. And giving out Protection is also great (but the cooldown there might be a tad long).

The Shield takes more effort to use well (because there’s little you can do wrong with the Focus), but it also has to fit in your build/playstyle.

Rhogall.4179:

Guardians are melee oriented … get over it.

This is being said a lot, and it bugs me for the following reasons:

• If us being “melee-oriented” is true and important, then why did they increase the range of both the Staff and the Scepter during Beta? Or why do we have ranged weapons anyway, if we’re not supposed to use them as such?
• Ranged combat is a part of the game that every (other) profession has access to. Saying we aren’t supposed to be able to do decent ranged combat means we’re not viable for a part of the game.

Alarox.4590:

To anyone who claims Guardians are fine and they’re super balanced in almost every way… 30 Valor =/= Guardian

This is true, but in casual play other options are least usable and we have (one or two) builds that can be less than 30 Valor and still playable. From what I understand, Necromancers (to give an example) don’t even have that.

First of all, learn to dodge. Some attacks aren’t worth taking the full brunt of.
Other than that, Mace+Focus prevents a lot of damage, and if you pair it with a Greatsword (or Sword) you have another Blind.

My first post here may have suggested I don’t think the Guardian has problem. People who’ve read other posts of me know that isn’t true.
It’s just that Relentliss is a font of negativity. I wouldn’t have called him out if other professions had gotten proportionally more love or if our profession was downright underpowered.

Ah, the joys of not running dungeons

I predicted this was going to be a problem, but I hoped it wouldn’t.
You could explain that you offer tons of support without actually healing (and remind them that Protection is the best boon if you don’t want to die). You could also tell them that no matter how much you try, you’re not going to properly heal, because that’s not how the game works.

If that doesn’t work yell at them because they suck at tanking :-)

If you didn’t find the profession fun enough to begin with, why do you insist in playing it?
Because despite all the issues we have, most people who want to see the profession improve actually like playing it.

I don’t think spreading Altruistic Healing to all Guardians is a good idea. It’s a really, really powerful trait, so just giving it away would create a whole new dynamic that might not be healthy for the profession balance.

Other options might be hard to think of, but that doesn’t mean it’s a viable alternative to just spreading our best trait. Adding some more control options in offensive lines might serve as an alternative to more self-healing. Or maybe giving a couple of escape options to the offensive lines. There are options, we can think up ideas, and if we can, professional game-designers certainly can.

RAVVSlathotep.5463:

This would only make the already above-par Guardian class even better. The way Anet is going to “fix” the fact that we only use less than 6 utilities is by nerfing them so hard the other ones won’t seem as kittenty.

Don’t get me wrong, I’d like to see those changes but I’d rather not have them touch the Guardian anymore, at least before every other class is fixed.

(New post, since the previous one was long enough.)
Arenanet would be fools if they only fixed/changed/tweaked one profession at a time. If they’re going to change/tweak/fix professions, all of them should be done in the same patch.

I agree with most of your analysis, but I don’t agree with a lot of your solutions. I’m not going over everything you wrote and responding to it all (since that would be crazy time-consuming). What I’m going to do instead is give a quick rundown of what I think about the problems and post a couple of suggestions of my own. I think this will make for a more interesting discussion than just answering everything you wrote.

Altruistic Healing
This is indeed one of the biggest problem this profession faces. Not because it’s a bad trait (it’s an excellent Grandmaster trait), but because it overshadows almost every other trait. It caters to our profession, because we spread boons without even thinking about it, and it shores up the biggest downside our profession has (low healthpool). To top it all off, it’s in what is probably the best trait-line Guardians have access to. No other Grandmaster trait can compete, even if they’re more interesting.

Valor
As mentioned above, Valor is our best trait-line. It offers defense and offense and holds a number of interesting traits. Other trait-lines often have interesting traits, but are not enough to make the investment worth it. Every time you spend 5 points in a trait-line, a Guardian has to wonder: “Are these point better spend in Valor?”.
A lot of problems Brutaly mentioned stem from this overarching problem.

Ranged options

As discussed by Brutaly, this is a problem. Most things about this have been said in this and other threads, so I’m not going into it any further.

Mobility
I’m going to address this shortly. I don’t think Guardians lack too much mobility. The options are certainly there, but we have to sacrifice way too much, which makes any build that invests in mobility options non-viable.

Retaliation
I’ve written about this, but it bears repeating. Too much about the Guardian revolves around Retaliation, which is a boring, passive mechanic. It alleviates some problems (like terrible ranged damage), but overall the boon is a poor mechanic in a game that wants an active playstyle.

Solution-time

• Make other trait-lines worth investing in. This will call for a big redo of all our traits, but the end-result should become that each line has at least 1 Grandmaster trait that’s as interesting and effective as Altruistic Healing (Pure of Voice, for example, is on the right track). Our damage-oriented lines also need some traits (preferably Master-level or higher) that increase our survivability.
• I don’t think we need more mobility, per se. Giving us access to ways of keeping our enemy close would serve a similar purpose. Numerous ways of doing so have been discussed in other threads, so I won’t go over them again.
• I’ve discussed ways of improving the Scepter a lot, so unless someone is specifically interested in them, I won’t retype them.
• The Staff could use a redesign. It’s currently unfocused and that’s the main thing that needs to be looked at. Decide what role a Staff is supposed to fill, and work with that.
• Change Retaliation so it does higher damage with a shorter duration, making the decision to use it more skill based, instead of just trying to keep it up as much as possible.

@Hicci: You need a Scepter in your inventory because they game sometimes downright requires you to be at ranged, not because the Scepter is a good weapon.

Ranged Guardians are possible, but the options are limited and melee is almost always better.

I must say that Guardians certainly have options in order to increase their mobility and the ability to stay on a target. The trade-offs for doing so however are often way to high.

And I’m not sure if I completely agree with the notion that any “fix” needs to be available for every Guardian as baseline. I could see any solution that is a trait (Master or lower) in Radiance or Zeal, for example.

Then again, doing so risks making those traits nearly mandatory in sPvP, which results in even less (viable) build variance. I’m interested to see what solutions the community can think of (I might add something myself later after giving it some thought).

Arken.3725:

I’m for getting rid of retaliation all-together. I find it to be a lazy boon that actually takes no skill and it’s just spammed.

I agree. Either Retaliation needs an overhaul so it becomes a lot more active and strategic, or it needs to be replaced by something else altogether.

Lalangamena.3694:

Sword is a short range melee weapon with projectiles protection and Torch is well Torch…

Sword and Torch fill kinda the same niche (namely feeling like Aragorn :-)). They don’t hit that hard, but they do hit very fast, which lends itself to a heavy crit-based build and makes for a lot of passive Virtue of Justice activations.

I’m not going to tell you how to build. You’re going to be a lot more effective (and happy) if you make your own build and understand every choice.
What I am going to say is that going full-blown “support” isn’t the best idea in PvP (especially where 5v5 is concerned) because you’re putting a lot of effort into supporting a team you only spend actual time with 50% of the time. As a Guardian your own survivability should come first (because that’s what’s expected of you).

Therefor, I’d suggest that you take 10 points out of Virtues, and put those either in Valor or Honor. You don’t lose out on that much (if any) support, but your own survivability will rise significantly.

And bunkering 1v3 has as much to do with your build as it has with your and your opponents skill.

Lastly, think about your weapon selection. Look at every weapon you have and think about which kind of situations that weapon is useful and how often such situations occur.

It looks like a solid build, but I don’t see it as significantly more mobile than a generic bunker build. I’d even wager that my Shout-based bunker build is about as mobile as this one.

I find it hard to quantify any weapon as “better” (except the Scepter). I personally prefer the Hammer in most situations, since it offers fair damage and protection with just the first two abilities, leaving the other 3 for more specialized situations. To get the most out of the Greatsword, you’re often blowing all the cooldown and then left auto-attacking.

Changing “Retreat!”s name has been suggested at least 4 times already. Suggestions that I’ve liked were “Move It!” and “With Haste!”. You don’t want the name to imply any specific behavior apart from running, since at some point you’re not going to use it to retreat/advance and it’s going to look silly.

I agree with a lot of what’s being said, but I’d like to make a few suggestions.

1. Maybe trigger the condition when the Symbol appears and/or when an enemy enters a Symbol. This makes the use of Symbols more tactical, while making the trait a bit weaker (it can be souped up if needed for damage and this goes over better with the community than nerfing something that turns out too powerful).
2. Put it at 20 Zeal. While I agree that Zeal needs all the help it can get, Grandmaster traits should pretty gamechanging and not just things the profession kinda needs.
3. Maybe make it a cripple instead of a chill. While I think chill fits the “magic knight” thing the Guardian has going on, cripple makes it a bit weaker (which is important for point 2).
   [quote=1276535;Alarox.4590:]Bump – saw discussion of a trait like this in another thread about Smite being a symbol; we have a thread here already.[/quote]
   Good bump.

hithlain.4385:

Tyber Valens.5148:

I once stood in front of a keep door using my default staff attack. Acutally killed a guy on the other side.

Isn’t what ANet called an abuse, a bug that is forbidden to use till they found the fix for this? I remember reading something about this somewhere…

This has been known since a Guardian first walked into WvWvW during the beta weekends (and should have been found by Arenanet’s QA-team). If it’s still an issue, they shouldn’t scold people for doing it.

Maybe, maybe not. I don’t know if it’s just a Guardian issue, or if other professions also get pigeon-holed into specific roles.

Darx.9842:

But if Smite was a symbol, it would be affected by the symbol traits.

This is more or less the point. And I don’t think it would be overpowered, even when traited. If you look at the Symbol on the Staff, you’ll notice that a long-lasting ranged Symbol isn’t that strong and there is nothing on the Scepter (or any of our off-hands) that could make for incredibly powerful synergy.

@Eveningstar: Well said.

I agree. I see no reason for Smite not being a Symbol. The only problem is that it’s hard to decide which boon it should grant: all Symbols give protective/defensive boons , and only Vigor is left, which I don’t feel should be on a Symbol.

Yaki.9563:

It is good.

It’s passable. At best. In PvE it’s kinda okay, but has almost no internal syngergy (which is forgivable in one-handers, to be fair). The Scepter’s thing is that it’s a ranged weapon, which, in my opinion, isn’t enough. In WvWvW the Scepter has pretty much only two functions, with the first being your safest option to survive the zerg. In sPvP the Scepter has a functional range of 600 at best.

Doomcaster.5084:

Link broken…?

You need to copy-paste it into your browser. The links from that website have been broken forever on this forum, which is the fault of the forum. It has to do with the semicolon in the links.

Twill.6217:

I don’t think Bows or Rifles or Javelins suit the profession.

People keep saying that, but they never say why.

Anyway, I don’t think we need a new weapon. Just make the Scepter into something good.

Favorite things about being a Guardian:

• Banish
• Trapping an entire enemy team in my Ring of Warding in sPvP
• Empower, then switch to Greatsword (with all the faults I have with the Staff, this little combo is amazing)
• Judge’s Intervention
• Shield of Absorption (such a nicely designed ability)

As a Guardian, I felt leveling was obnoxious the first 10 to 15 levels, but after that it was a breeze. For a single mob I never had/have to dodge at all and multiple mobs aren’t very hard either, with some skilled playstyle.
But a lot depends on the build you use. You really have to look for a build that suits your preferences.

I can’t give specific advice towards dungeons (since I don’t enjoy running them), but I can comment on feeling “underwhelming”.
One of the flaws this game has is that there’s no easy way to tell how you’re doing or how good your performance is. Sure, people are going to say: “If you’re not dying, and the mobs are, you’re doing good,” and there’s truth in that, but it won’t help you improve.
This flaw becomes most apparent when you’re focusing on support. When dealing damage, you at least have the numbers on the screen to give you some indication, but support it too broad for just numbers. So maybe you were doing amazing support, even though you felt you didn’t. There’s no easy way to tell.

Amins.3710:

And for WvW it would decimate the AH Build completely, Ynna.

On top of that, your suggesting that guardians be ‘special’ in their ground targeted AoE abilities…

Might as well make Elementalists Ground Targeted AoE abilities follow them too…

EDIT: And we should always be balancing for PvE…. /lol

1) I don’t think Symbols need changes. A few tweaks might be nice, but big changes are probably unnecessary. What I’d like to see (for example) is giving the Scepter a Symbols that grants a debilitating effect (which makes opponents more wary about all Symbols) or giving us a (Master-)trait that grants a chance to apply a chill/cripple to an opponent that enters a Symbol.
2) I don’t want to destroy the Altruistic Healing build in any kind of content, I just care little about it, since it overshadows most of our other options. In an ideal world, I’d like to see more interesting Grandmaster traits for Guardians, rather than a change to Altruistic Healing.
3) I wasn’t arguing in favor of moving Symbols (on the contrary, see also point 1).
4) I’d rather see other professions (including Elementalists) have stronger punisher-mechanic, so they’ll also get more field control.
5) I care about PvE to the extent that I care about the Guardian as a whole. I don’t particularly enjoy the PvE content, so I’m not very knowledgeable about it. That being said, I don’t like to see nerfs (or buffs) for one type of content at the expense of other types.

Obtena.7952:

I’m not sure what your definition of field control is. For me, it’s the ability to move people about, friend or foe, like a sheep dog controls sheep. A sheep dog doesn’t stand still to herd; mobile symbols would be more effective in controlling than what we presently have now.

This is something neither Symbols nor mobile Symbols would do. Symbols are just useless as a mechanic for field control.

Both our range options are pretty bad, with the Scepter being slightly more useful as a ranged weapon than the Staff.

redknight.8036:

This is why slapping a Wall of Reflection is a huge factor in ranged engagements because the amount reflected is never capped, and that’s why a.net doesn’t want guardian to have superb ranged options. You just can’t give Guardians both survivability and high ranged damage option with the accompanying virtue – consecration and shout mechanics.

I’ve seen this argument in the past, and it’s easy to circumvent: make sure any new ranged weapons are not damage powerhouses. Give the first attack decent damage, and just make the rest more focused on utility than damage.
Basically, it’s no excuse.

Obtena.7952:

Improving boons won’t address the Guardian’s because it would affect everyone. Mobile Symbols would actually improve field control (if that’s indeed what the dev’s think Guardians should be)

Improving boons for the Guardian won’t just help everyone (but I’m not sure if it’s needed).

Mobile Symbols would not improve field control at all. It just gives opponents even more reason to run away from you.

Amins.3710:

I don’t see the issue.

The issue being that with how Symbols work now, it goes directly against the playstyle that’s inherent in PvP.

foofad.5162:

I vaguely recall them being larger in Beta, was that the case? I can’t remember now.

I don’t think they were. The notion that Symbols weren’t big enough have been around forever.

Amins.3710:

Huge nerf to Altruistic Healing across the board. No way. Not just PvE. This would kill the Altruistic Healing build.

This is a horrible idea and there would need to be so many other changes to the class to compensate for it….. Just because u can’t learn to fight in your circle?

It would mostly affect PvE and WvWvW and I feel like Altruistic Healing is too good. Not from a balance perspective, but compared with other Grandmaster level traits we have access to.

And the issue isn’t “learn[ing] to fight in your circle”, it’s the fact that we don’t have a lot of options for keeping our opponent in the circle, which means we lose out on either the boon it grants or the damage it provides (or both).

The way Symbols work is fine, but the effects they have on the opponent could be bigger, to increase our ability for field control (which I feel should be a big part of the Guardian’s playstyle).
Come to think of it, maybe the Smite should become a Symbol with a pretty annoying condition (maybe a Cripple or a Chill). This makes the Scepter better (which it needs to be), gives the Scepter a bigger identity (crowd-control weapon) and forces opponents to think about stepping in (all) our Symbols.