Guild Wars 2

now we get to the bread and butter of this post (sorry about all the sprinkles, I just want to minimise misunderstandings as much as I can :] which also reminds me, if you haven’t already you should try “fairy bread”, it’s bread with butter and sprinkles), I’l start with the worst offender; heart quests.

HEART QUESTS: these little buggers are not only the driving force behind quest, but also one of the most immersion breaking. when i say driving force i mean that while one their own they may not be the majority of quests (once you factor in events that is) but they certainly steer the quester around the area, and are what questers do between events, sadly there is only a few in each area but I think with the frequency of events it’s not too much of an issue.

the real issue is how they are presented to the player. the way they appear on your screen when you get in the general area is fine if your just doing them to get to the next thing (in a way grinding them) but if you actually want to enjoy questing I find these to be massive inhibitors. they break immersion in both ways, as a character in the world I have no way of knowing these things without talking to the quest giver, and as a player it breaks down the quest into a “go here do that for exp”, it negates any sense of presentation, sure I have the option of talking to a quest giver before doing it but because I already know the objective and details it becomes something I do just to tick off a box in my head, again devaluing it into nothing more than a set of objectives I need to do in order to progress, it still negates the sense of questing and makes it feel like a grind.

the solution that I would recommend wouldn’t drastically change anything and I believe it would make these a much better part of the questing experience, simply add in the option to hide the objective until you have spoken to the quest giver, still have it track your progress but don’t show the quest in the quest log until we speak to the quest giver, this brings back immersion as both a character and as a player while not impacting those that like it the way it is.

PROGRESSION: this is more of a category of issues, so I’ll break it down into sub issues. the things with the progression in GW2 is that for questers it’s off, once I’ve done the quests in an area I am still several levels under the next natural progression (by natural progression I mean the next level bracket area that leads on from the previous one, sort of how a sylvari will go from caledon forest to brisban wild lands), this give me two options, both equally bad.

my first option is to do all the areas exploration, vistas and PoI, this ruins my immersion as a player because I’m only doing these to get levels, thus I’m grinding so that I can continue questing, but that’s not the worst part. the worst part is what ramifications forced exploration has for the nicely crafted world. when exploration is mandatory and you are only doing it for levels it becomes a basic “go here do this” objective, the then turns the area between the objectives into a travel zone (at least in the mind of the players) which in turn devalues the world space that the devs have put so much effort into crafting well, but again, this is only an issue of you are being forced to do it, if you enjoy exploration and are exploring because you want to this is a non-issue.

the second option is to go to another level appropriate zone and quest there, but this breaks my immersion not only as a player but also as a character, it has been put to me that it makes sense to kill weaker guys in order to get stronger, and that it does, but it doesn’t make sense that after looking at the guys in the next zone my character up and decided to travel all the way to the shiver peaks and bash some of those guys around to get stronger. as a player it’s even worse because now I’m not questing because I enjoy it, I’m now questing because I need the levels it provides, now any notion that I was questing rather than grinding has gone out the window.

I’m gonna say this now so you know where I’m coming from, the Questing in GW2 is flat out the worst questing I have personally ever seen in an MMO, it’s not something that can’t be fixed, and its not a problem with questing on a fundamental level, it’s a problem with the implementation of a lot of features and I think it can be “fixed” without changing the fundamental ways in which the game plays. Please read my entire post before taking it at face value and misunderstanding my point.

I am a “questing enthusiast” (take that for what you will) and I mostly play MMOs for the questing and dungeons, the rest doesn’t interest me more than as a casual endeavour and as such I will only be talking about questing (dungeons seem mostly fine, although I do disagree with the removal of the trinity) and why it is such a poor experience for avid questers, keep in mind that while everything I say is very much my opinion I have tried to be as absolutely objective as I can.

before anybody brings up the “go play a different game then” argument I will state that I already do this (I play TSW mainly, best questing as far as I’m concerned) and the reason I post this is because I see a lot of potential in the questing of GW2 and would very much like to see it fulfil that potential. another argument I have no doubt will crop up is the “it’s not bad it’s different” to which I say poppykitten, I understand the difference between bad and different and this isn’t bad because it’s different, it’s bad because of the way many features have been implemented.

before I get to the meat of my post I want to clarify a few things that I’ll be talking about. when I use the term “immersion” I’m not JUST talking about my character in the game world, I am also talking in the sense that I as a player am suspending the idea that I am just grinding things for levels/whatever, keep in mind that this is the primary goal of questing, the difference between questing and grinding is a slim one and revolves mostly around the concept of presentation, dressing up the grind so that it doesn’t seem like a grind, it’s the same as how every quest at a base level is just a fetch quest or some variant, there is nothing wrong with that because that’s just what questing is, the problem arises from how GW2 fails to accomplish this (I’ll get to that later though).

when I talk about rewards I’m not talking exclusively about gear, gold or shines in general, I’m talking about what I get for doing something, think of it like a spectrum, on one end you have positive rewards, the kind we are used to getting in most MMOs, but on the other end we have negative rewards, where we are punished to some degree for doing something, usually not intentionally punished but still suffer some negative consequence for our actions, in the middle we have null rewards, something that I think GW2 needs to aim for due to the experience centric gameplay.

which brings me to my final clarification, when I talk about exp I mean the points you get for levels, when I talk about experience I am talking about the actual experience of doing something, this is what GW2 has been marketed as, a game where you do things because you enjoy doing them. on a side note I’m going to attempt to stay away from the term “fun” because it is so horribly vague and varies so much from person to person, I will instead be using the term “enjoyment/enjoyable/ect.” to mean a positive experience.

been there, broke that. still have immense trouble enjoying the game (which makes me sad because I do want to enjoy this game).

immursion breakers?

the entirety of questing in GW2.

no I am not exaggerating (ok maybe just a teeny tiny little bit), most every feature of questing in GW2 has been implemented in such a way that it fails to accomplish what questing should, the hiding of the grind (by this i mean that questing is just a grind, always has and always will be, the difference is that questing gets dressed up so it doesn’t SEEM like a grind).

I’m not gonna go into detail here (might make a thread later though), as much as I want to enjoy the game it’s hard to do when everything has been devolved into a grind (questing wise anyway).

Jestunhi.7429:

The only way it “doesn’t make sense” is from an immersion / storyline point of view. And I agree that the storylines across zones could be better inter-connected.

But it’s hardly unrealistic to fight easier enemies while training for harder ones. Practicing on a challenge which you can do to allow you to acheive greater challenges from the skills / experience learned is something that happens both in real life and in computer games all the time.

It’s not done badly, it’s done differently. It may well be done in a way which is less suited to your personal playstyle, but that doesn’t make it bad.

It’s less linear. There is more content that I could ever need to get enough xp to reach level 80 and the level downscaling means that it can be a challenge (depending on the quest, etc).

firstly, when I say immersion I’m not just talking about the character and how they fit in the world (although it does violate that as well), I’m also talking about suspending the idea that I’m just doing this to get exp to progress, I’m talking about GW2 completely failing to make it feel like I’m doing anything other than grinding, when I talk about immersion I mean in every aspect, and in every aspect I am let down. my character progression makes no sense for my character (he didn’t just look at the guys in the next zone and decide to go to the shiverpeaks to get a bit more buff). the idea that I’m questing as a character and not just grinding is completely ruined the second I am forced to sacrifice my questing experience in order to gain levels, something that I am forced to do after every zone.

and when I say badly I do mean badly, I know the difference between that and different. it’s like saying being shot is just different to not being shot, it’s true to a point. maybe the fact that I don’t enjoy crafting/forced exploration/PvP/grinding is part of the cause, but I find that even then the Questing is designed badly, even looking at it objectively the questing is bad. if by less linear you mean I can’t progress in a path that makes any sense what-so-ever and have to go places for no reason other than grinding levels than I wholly agree, but that’s not “less linear” so much as “there is nothing linear about it because there is absolutely no connection or linearity between them” which is bad because it returns us to the problem of stripping the player of any immersion on any level.

level down-scaling only applies if the content is a lower level, my problem is that I don’t level up fast enough via questing to allow me to continue questing in any good way, hell I couldn’t care less if I was several levels above the content in question, if I’m over-leveled for the next zone than that’s great because it means I don’t have to worry as much about the kitten progression interrupting my questing experience. I am also not complaining about the content, I think there is plenty enough content, my problem is that I can’t enjoy said content in any enjoyable way without the kitten progression actively making me stop enjoying it until I grind out some levels in one of a number of ways that I don’t find enjoyable in the slightest.

is it too much to ask that I be able to go to the next quest when I finish the one I’m on rather than be forced to craft/PvP/explore/grind or any other thing that doesn’t involve continuing with my otherwise good enough questing experience?

“Look at 1-15 zones as an example.

There are 5 I think.

If you do just one fifth of the content available for level 1-15 players (and that’s discounting exploration, gathering, crafting, WvW, and the various other things you can do to get xp – when those are taken into account it’s much less than a fifth of the content available to characters in that level range) it’s unsurprising that you aren’t completely ready for the next level bracket."

please do listen to what I say, i have addressed everything you just said and I’ll do it again.

I enjoy questing, in any MMO, and while I think the questing in GW2 is sub par I still enjoy it enough to want to do it (or at least enough that I want to try and enjoy it), I don’t want to be forced to PvP/explore(when I say explore I mean go to points marked on my map just to get exp, I actually do enjoy looking at the world while I quest)/craft/grind in any way in order to quest, so what option does that leave me, go to other level appropriate zones, that’s my only other option.

but this creates more problems than it solves, now not only does my characters progression in the world not make sense but I am actively removed from the game, I am unable to immerse myself or in any way feel like I am doing anything but grinding for exp for levels, I want to quest for the experience of questing (not the exp points for levels) and I want to continue questing, not to get to 80 but rather because I enjoy questing (and I have been told time and again that I should be doing things because I enjoy them and not for the “reward”, which is what I’m trying to do), but every time I finish questing in a zone I am forced to run alternative objectives that i do not enjoy just to grind out a few levels to correct my progression, it completely goes against the design philosophy of the game, and makes for an even poorer questing experience (and the questing is not that good to begin with).

I dunno, maybe I’ve just been spoiled by another recent MMO that had the best questing I’ve ever seen in an MMO, but the more I look at the way questing is designed in GW2 the more I see how badly it was done, which is a shame because I also see so much potential for questing in GW2 and it wouldn’t take anything more than some heavy tweaking.

Gibbed.1572:

Questing in GW2 is the best system I’ve ever experienced in an MMO. EQ, EQ2, SWG, WoW, AION, Rift, SWTOR are so inferior with their quest hub, run back and forth crap. This game feels organic in the way quest just pop up when you get to an area.

What I find funny is the comments about how tedious and boring it is to explore, yet the same people in this thread want to ‘grind’ to level 80 as fast as they can. Talk about boring… Well, there is always other MMOs out there for you guys. Have fun storming the castle.

feels organic? what game are you playing, because it sure as kitten ain’t the one I’m playing. the way quests just “pop up” is one of the worst features, its one of the things I am talking about when I say lack of presentation, it’s the poorest attempt at concealing the grind I have ever seen (and concealing the grind is why quests exist in the first place).

also I couldn’t give a kitten about getting to level 80, I just want to quest in a way that makes sense and doesn’t ruin the world space.

“What I’m reading here is “I want to limit my gameplay to a small percentage of the content & map, but I still expect to be given loads of xp as if I’d completed it all”.

You want to skip the majority of the content designed for each level? Fine, you’re free to do so. But it’s hardly surprising that you find yourself too low level to succeed in the higher level areas."

no, I don’t want to do vistas or PoI for the experience because it turns the areas between them into travel zones thus devaluing the world that has actually been well crafted, I like vistas and I like PoI, but there is a difference between incentivising them and making them required, I’m not asking to be fed EXP so that I can be a higher level, I’m asking that questing give enough exp that I can go to the next zone once I have exhausted all the quests in the area (or at least be no more than 1-2 levels below), questing should be in and of itself its own reward, but instead my reward for questing is being forced to do something else so that I can continue questing, and even then the questing isn’t that good. people tell me just to go to anther level appropriate zone? but that removes me from any sense of character/immersion and makes it feel like I’m grinding for levels, when I’m actively trying to avoid grinding for levels, again, the difference between grinding and questing is presentation, GW2 severely lacks it.

I’m not asking to be rewarded for questing, I’m asking not to be drastically inhibited for questing.

“Congratulations.

It is sad that some people still blame GW2 for not having holy trinity as if it wasn’t advertised before that the game won’t have holy trinity. I think only unskilled players need holy trinity since you don’t have to do anything else but only one, single action (dps, tank or heal people) while in GW2 you have to dps, tank yourself as much as you as well as your group if you’re playing with that kind of build, heal yourself and your group -again, if you’re playing that kind of build-, dodge and other stuff.

This game is a good one."

skill? skill has nothing to do with it, I think it was badly handled, and they “accomplished” it (of you can call it an accomplishment) but limiting peoples ability to play the game, I could play this way in most MMOs ever made, it isn’t new and it wasn’t a design choice made for any good reason, it was a design choice made to play on peoples fundamental lack of understanding when it comes to the trinities existence.

I think that they approached it in bad way, why outright remove peoples ability to play how they want rather than open up the classes and dungeons to allow much more potential for playing outside the trinity? maybe I just don’t like being told I have t play a certain way, because I usually like running dungeons outside the trinity in other games, but I also enjoyed playing within the trinity (healing is fun yo), but in GW2 I can’t do that, I can’t play the way I want despite being told that I could.

not that I was unaware going into it, I knew from the second they announced the details that they were making a bad decision, and that the people were jumping on it like it was some revolution of gaming, that’s what really pisses me of about it, people touting it like it’s the best thing an MMO has ever done (it really isn’t). but I knew dungeons would be like that, I didn’t particularly care because I also enjoy running them outside the trinity, but that doesn’t make it any less of a poor choice.

i haven’t, not yet, and i have doubts that i ever will.

Amlin.6041:

Here’s what you do: You do a zone that’s your level range, just do the hearts and if you run into any events along the way awesome and if not no biggie. Just make sure you do a many of the hearts that you find fun. Then once you finish with that go to another map that is in the in the same or close to the same level range.

That way you’ll see new sights and keep things fresh, you were never supposed to stick to an area and grind out the same events or do the Exploration stuff, in fact Exploration is actually just a bonus thing.

here’s the thing, I don’t want to be questing with my sylvari in the forest, fighting the nightmare court, only to find that once I’ve done all the karma quests in the area and run every event that has popped up (even if I didn’t want to) that I am still several levels under the next area and can’t keep questing in my natural progression path, my only options are to go get all the vistas and points of interest (things that I don’t want to be forced to do because not only does it trivialize the nicely crafted areas but feels tedious) OR go fight the inquisition or the dragon worshipers or any other “not my problem” in areas that make no sense for my character to have traveled to, that aren’t part of my natural progression path, and remove me from any sort of immersion and turn what should be a nice quest arc into a set of go here do this objectives to get to the next level.

I think that the questing in this game is most aweful I have ever seen in any MMO, not because it’s “different” and not because it’s “hard” but because it’s so badly designed that I am punished for doing it by being stripped or any immersion and being made to feel like I’m grinding for exp, all I want to do is quest, the major distinction between questing and grinding is presentation, something that GW2 lacks to a large degree.

you purchased an MMO that has been out for less than a month, what did you expect?

you want a more stable MMO get one that’s 6 months old at least.

firstly, you cannot quantify fun, fun is not a “reason”, fun is a result of many different possible inputs, you can’t have a game that revolves around being “fun” because fun isn’t a cause of a good game it’s a product, but that’s all terminology and I think it’s just a poor choice of words on your part, I get what your saying anyway (which is really what matters).

anyway, I enjoy questing, love it to death when a game has good questing (even mediocre questing will do), I don’t mind dungeon running either and I don’t really need a lot of end game to be satisfied. but I love a good quest. I do it because I enjoy the experience (not the EXP the actual experience of questing) I couldn’t care less about the rewards as long as I can keep questing. that being said I think the questing in GW2 is some of the most god awful game design I have ever seen, don’t get me wrong, they do some things really well, but I found most of their features just cheapened the experience of questing and made it dull, made it unengaged, made it so bad that I just can’t get into it, no matter how hard I try. it’s not that I don’t like the world (I love it), it’s not that I don’t like the combat (combats fine, even if it is the same most of the way through), I just feel so removed from the game when I quest and I could go on all day as to why (but I’ll bekittenif I’m gonna type all that kitten out).

When was the first time your sylvari saw a wall?

like, ACTUAL WALLS, made of stone and stuff rather than grown from the ground.

I only ask because the first time I remember seeing a proper wall was when I passed a half toppled wall masquerading as an outpost of some kind and I remember thinking “Wow… that’s new”, and then when I first went to lionsgate (so I could meet my Nord pal) I was star struck for a good couple minutes when I realized these were the first actual structures my sylvari had ever seen in their entire life, it felt a little… odd.

here’s the thing, the sylvari don’t reproduce through sex, so their culture hasn’t got this built up precedent of male-female relationships that humans do, they have relationships for purely non-reproductive reasons. so while humans have a heterosexually driven urge to mate the sylvari don’t have that urge at all, instead they choose to form a close bond to better their lives in all ways.

here’s a question for you, would you rather have purely non-sexual relationships with a person of your own gender or the opposite gender? think of it less like marriage and more like being best friends (like, THE BEST FRIENDS EVER FOREVER) because that’s probably closer to how the sylvari view it.

because someone still has to tank, they won’t be doing it full time but someone has to get hit by things or targeted by things, and it’s best if you try and have it be the guy who has the best defenses. same goes for heals, it’s always good to have somebody with a few extra heals on their bar.

as much as I like playing outside the trinity I think flat out removing it was the wrong way to go about it, I’d much rather they had just opened up the encounters so it wasn’t as much of a path of least resistance.

Notsure.7028:

You really believe that? Anet cares so much about their customers that they stopped sales of their game so that they can get the time they need to get more servers online. I jsut read today that they are doing that and should have them online soon to compensate for the large population. I havent seen ANY MMO company (Including the giant) care as much about their players as Anet does.

And since lvling is so easy, why didnt you switch to your friends servers day one and not have this problem?

you really truly believe the only reason they did that was because they care about you? not because it would reflect extremely poorly on the game if a large number of paying customers couldn’t play the game, or any number of other issues that would affect future sales if they continued to sell more copies than they could accommodate.

it’s like airlines that over sell plane tickets, howkitten would you be if you showed up to catch your flight and they said "sorry but we oversold the flight because we were hoping some people who bought tickets wouldn’t show up).

I’m sure the player bases experience was one of the reasons they did it. but actually genuinely caring was a very minor part of an already small part of the reason.

Honestly? nothing.

I’ll keep coming back and playing every now and then but somehow this game keeps failing to hold my attention, I keep Switching over to TSW to go play that, which seems odd to me because I’m not even half way to anywhere In GW2 but have done nearly all there is to do in TSW.

I’m only really logging in to GW2 for a hit of high fantasy and because it doesn’t cost me anything to do so.