Guild Wars 2

while I agree auto groupers are bad and games are better for not having them I would be disappointed if ANet didn’t add any LFG tool period, a good LFG tool should support what players already do when forming groups, at the very least an LFG channel is good, but proper LFG UI that makes finding and contacting people easy and removes the need to spam is better.

I’m a little disappointed with the COMPLETE lack of any group finding/forming support in the game, just an LFG channel would have sufficed for release and I’m sure it wouldn’t have been to hard to include.

technically it’s an exploit, and a bug, but I doubt ANet are gonna start throwing around bans for glitching your gear so you appear naked, it’s not like I can’t do that by removing my gear anyway.

Vexus.5423:

How many times did you go on TS/Vent/Mumble in WoW, and your friends said, “Yeah I’m just grinding X for the raid next week.”

many times, yet they still dropped it to play together (or if I also needed to farm something we worked together) because I played with people worth a kitten and in GW2 shock and horror every time I’ve started a conversation with my friends as they play they almost always respond with “I’m just grinding X for Y”

deriver.5381:

Zoridium JackL.7463:

“you believe that nothing could ever be made that can possibly hinder the playing experience somehow? Ever” I don’t know where you got that from unless you were stressing the can’t in the first sentence of that paragraph, in which case I should clarify that that is more of a subjective “Shouldn’t because it’s a horrible way to make a game and they know better”, but regardless I don’t think it’s a good idea to put ARBITRARY limitations on gameplay there was a key word in that sentence that you missed the first time around, and attempting to FORCE players to diversify their game play when there is no mechanical reason to do so beyond you thinking it’s better that way is practically the very definition.

You realize that the whole game is composed of arbitrary limitations and mechanics, right? There isn’t a single part of it that not follows this rule.

That being said, I can discuss about better ways to make arbitrary limitations, like the DR, for the purpose it was made. I’m not going to enter the merit of it being or not being successful. It’s a controversial topic that has nothing to do with the OP.

But please, for the love of God, drop the “I want to play however I want” mantra. This is just making you people look bad. This will never be the case, period.

“you people”? who you calling “you people”?

I think you completely misunderstand my purpose here, I’m not saying they should make the game something it’s not just to appease the people who don;t like it, I’m not sitting in a circle with my peers chanting “how i want, how i want, how i want” over and over, and I know it will never be the case, see my first post in this thread and i say exactly that, it’s one of the first things I say at that.

and now you are guilty of doing exactly what you said I was doing, you are taking my words and being over literal with it, when I say arbitrary imitation I mean within the context of the game, there is a difference between a mechanic that serves a purpose to further gameplay and a mechanic that imposes a limitation on gameplay for the sake of imposing a developers personal will on people that may disagree (again, not something I’m saying ANet are doing, just a distinction that I think people (in particular you) need to understand)

Red Falcon.8257:

If you want to grind for hours in the same exact place then no, it’s not ok as it’s borderline bot behavior.

the definition of bot hasn’t changed recently has it? I thought it had something to do with automated thingamajigs, not player doing things repeatedly in the same place…

noremorze.1745:

Zoridium JackL.7463:

lastly, you can’t make a game and then put arbitrary limitations on the players because you want them to “play with all of it”, if someone only wants to play one aspect of the game, and you are forcing them to play parts they don’t enjoy just because you think it’s better than something is wrong with that designer. you don’t punish people for playing the content they enjoy. what a good game designer would do is add INCENTIVE to diversify game-play, give people a reason to try multiple aspects of the game WITHOUT punishing them for only playing one, it’s all well and good to get people to try new things, but it’s a whole new cake when you force them to play parts that they don’t enjoy when there are perfectly good parts they do (and it’s not as easy as “go play something else” sure that’s a solution for the player, but it doesn’t help the game get better, and I think ANet will agree with me that it’s always good to make your game better).

Do you also complain if a game like lets say tetris doesn’t have any crafting and you can’t play the game like you want? I know, stupid example right? However, it’s not that different from this game nor any game for that matter.

see my above post, complaining that tetris doesn’t have crafting is an unreasonable point when discussion tetris (although tetris with a crafting system of some kind could make for a very good game :]), while complaining that GW2 prevents players from doing the activities they enjoy in the game already without grinding the stuff they don’’t enjoy is a pretty valid point (although again as stated above it’s only really semi-valid when it comes to DR)

Gehenna.3625:

Zoridium JackL.7463:

firstly, the blame is squarely on Anets shoulders for claiming you can play how you want in the first place, a seasoned dev like them should know better than to promise things you already know you can’t possibly deliver, and a game that can be played any which way you want is simply not possible, too many different preferences and too many unreasonable nutters who will take the term too literally.

secondly, I do expect to go to a theme park and have 100 + goes on the rotating clowns, and on the 150th try I would expect that I have the same chance of winning the big prize as when I started, not to be told that now I can’t win anything not from the consolation box just because I’ve played too long.

thirdly, you don’t understand something very key to game development, you aren’t making the game for yourself, you are making it for your players (no this isn’t entitlement speaking, this is game design 101) and if they don’t enjoy it then nuts to you.

lastly, you can’t make a game and then put arbitrary limitations on the players because you want them to “play with all of it”, if someone only wants to play one aspect of the game, and you are forcing them to play parts they don’t enjoy just because you think it’s better than something is wrong with that designer. you don’t punish people for playing the content they enjoy. what a good game designer would do is add INCENTIVE to diversify game-play, give people a reason to try multiple aspects of the game WITHOUT punishing them for only playing one, it’s all well and good to get people to try new things, but it’s a whole new cake when you force them to play parts that they don’t enjoy when there are perfectly good parts they do (and it’s not as easy as “go play something else” sure that’s a solution for the player, but it doesn’t help the game get better, and I think ANet will agree with me that it’s always good to make your game better).

P.S. the last half I’m not just talking about DR, believe it or not they do it in other ways as well, and those other ways usually fly straight into the face of their design philosophies.

I agree that there is a problem on the marketing side of any company. Truth is they all do this. But aside from saying that you could play anyway you want, they also made it very clear this was not a grind game. And you can still grind, just not in the same place without DR hitting you, but switch areas and you can keep farming. What people are complaining about really is that they have to use their brain and that it takes a little longer, not the actual DR. If other areas gave the same rewards, hardly anyone would be complaining. It’s about grind efficiency (RPS), not that you cannot grind just that the people going 200 km/h now have to go at 180 km/h. They say it’s worse but it isn’t. That’s all exaggeration.

And every game has limits. It’s a programmed organism, not a living one and therefore has borders and patterns that need reprogramming to change. The problem isn’t that there are borders or limits but that they changed and a number of people are unwilling to adapt.

Yes, unwilling to go to other areas. Unwilling to accept that they need to take a little bit longer (not a lot longer, that’s their own fault for not getting that).

And no game can cater to every play style. You chose to focus on one sentence in the marketing campaing and ignored the rest. I put the blame on yourself for wanting this game to be something it isn’t.

Either way you will leave. Because of anger over DR or because of burning through content. You can’t cater to that group of players much cause they always leave in the first couple of months.

This helps the more long term player that stays cause he likes it for what it is and not hates it for what it isn’t.

you make valid points but I wasn’t talking about DR specifically, my points apply to it, but not it alone, I left a while ago not because of DR or running out of content, I just found the content I enjoy in games to be severely lacking in GW2.

and I didn’t focus on one sentence, the people that started this whole silly “I can’t play how I want” nonsense did, the play how you want argument applies to a point, but everyone seems intent on taking it to the extreme of either “you’re playing wrong and should go play a different game” or “I want this and GW2 isn’t this”, fact of the matter is that mid points exist, and some people have genuine complaints when the game prevents them from playing how they enjoy and some people have a genuine point when they say it’s just not the way this particular game is designed, the hard part for a lot of people it seems is differentiating between when a point is valid and when a point is unreasonable.

sorry, had to break it up, 5001+ apparently.

deriver.5381:

So, I hate leveling, but I love exploring dungeons… I hate GW because here, I’m forced to level, that means, playing an aspect of the game I really don’t like, just to be able to do what I like. kitten this game is horrible!

/sarcasm

So, in the ever changing world of the mmos, you believe that nothing could ever be made that can possibly hinder the playing experience somehow? Ever? Are you really that naive? I played almost every MMO out there since UO, back in 97. I can tell you that every single one of them have, in their past, made modifications that limited, somehow, the playing experience. So I guess you should start your own gaming company and be the one who will change the mmo industry for good, making a game where no limiting mechanic will ever be created. I wish you luck!

in that particular case (you know, the unrealistic one you created for the sole purpose of proving your stupid point, and yes I know you were being sarcastic, but lets for the moment assume that you weren’t) I would expect that anybody who enjoys exploration would find it easy to level seeing as how the level progression so heavily favors exploration, if it’s the dungeon aspect that is the real issue than you might have a half point, it’s true that after marketing the game as “play how you want” that you can’t just run dungeons as soon as you jump into the game, you have to level a little first, perhaps a similar issue to that with PvPers experience so often with games because they must PvE before they are able to compete in PvP on a more competitive (I.E. not getting stomped) level. probably not as large an issue because as stated someone with an interest in exploration or dungeons probably has other interests that can aid in that pursuit, and since some vertical progression is required in PvE on some level it’s unlikely that simply buffing players to the dungeons level would be particularly efficient (especially since vertical progression is key to a lot of dungeon runners), really I would say that a player solely into dungeon exploration would be suited to a different game, perhaps even a slight shift of genera if they wanted a truly good experience. of course your point still fails, the developers would still benefit from hearing their feedback that could potentially help them further their game.

“you believe that nothing could ever be made that can possibly hinder the playing experience somehow? Ever” I don’t know where you got that from unless you were stressing the can’t in the first sentence of that paragraph, in which case I should clarify that that is more of a subjective “Shouldn’t because it’s a horrible way to make a game and they know better”, but regardless I don’t think it’s a good idea to put ARBITRARY limitations on gameplay there was a key word in that sentence that you missed the first time around, and attempting to FORCE players to diversify their game play when there is no mechanical reason to do so beyond you thinking it’s better that way is practically the very definition.

of course specific to this topic it doesn’t matter because DR wasn’t introduced in an attempt to make players diversify on any level, that’s just the OP trying to make a bad argument to a semi valid point that someone made (I say semi valid point because while forced diversification is a possible side effect of DR it isn’t an intended one by ANet so pushing that point as bad design is silly in the case of GW2)

congratulations on missing every single point I was trying to make.

deriver.5381:

This really makes me sad. I thought we, human beings, were capable of subjective reasoning as well as objective one, but it’s clear that some people just can’t. “Play how you want”. Guess even without the DR it would never be the case, right? Can you fly if you want? Cant you PK people around DEs, if you want? Can you want around naked if you want? Yeah, lets just complain until the end of the days, then, because “play how you want” won’t ever be the case. You should knew that way before buying the game.

you understand that that is exactly what i was saying yeah? that there are people like that out there and ANet should know this, I wasn’t saying I was like that (I know exactly what they meant, and I don’t think they achieved it entirely on the level they intended, but I’ve already outlines that in detail elsewhere), and no it won’t ever be the case because of the wide variety of players out there, you can;t feasibly cater to all of them nor should you try.

deriver.5381:

Well, guess now you are starting to understand that a game is not made solely based on our expectations, right? Can you accept this as a fact? If yes, have fun. If not, better start looking for different hobbies.

you missed my point, a developer shouldn’t punish the player for playing the part they enjoy, it has nothing to do with my personal preferences (even had DR been implemented while I still played it wouldn’t have affected me in the slightest), if I don’t enjoy slippery slides at the theme park, and I know for a fact that I don’t enjoy it, I don’t want to be docked half my arcade tickets because I choose not to go on it, and you’d have to be a stupid thempark manager to come up with such a silly rule.

thirdly, you don’t understand something very key to game development, you aren’t making the game for yourself, you are making it for your players (no this isn’t entitlement speaking, this is game design 101) and if they don’t enjoy it then nuts to you.

deriver.5381:

And that’s exactly what they acomplished. They made a great game for the players. There are thousands of players our there loving the game and the experience it gives them. What you don’t seem to understand is that you are not the only player out there. While you and some others are here, complaining, others are playing the game exactly the way it allows them to, and are having fun. Why should something change because of you? Are you any better than anyone else?

again you miss my point, when designing a game you have to take into account that there will be different kinds of people playing it, especially with MMOs, and it’s foolish to to throw around the idea that the player is experiencing the developers game without first understanding that the developer is creating the experience for the player, and as such needs to meet the criteria of their intended player base (and playerbases tend to be reasonably diverse particularly with MMOs because there are so many combinations of playstyles that can overlap in so many different ways)

I understand completely that I am not the only player (I’m not even a current player at that), what you don’t seem to understand is that neither are you, sure there are heaps of people who enjoy the game as it is, but that’s no reason to stop trying to make it better, that’s no reason to stop trying to make particular aspects better for those that enjoy them. you seem hell bent on them not accepting any feedback that isn’t complete praise, as if the game can do no wrong because if anybody has an issue it must be the players fault, I hope for their sake that ANet is smarter than that and knows the value of feedback, especially negative feedback.

RSandbach.5743:

Have you used either of these features, OP? I’d be interested to hear what level you are and where you’ve been as well.

I know of both those features, I agree the scouts justify knowing the location of heart quests, just not knowing the exact details and outlines of the problems those people are facing (it’s a bit of a stretch and also the travel time from scout to quest creates a subconscious disconnect). and yes I know of events triggered by talking to an NPC, done several (done some many times over) but there isn’t too many of those and they are still semi-random (certain conditions must be met before they can be triggered, such as someone in some place so on so forth).

last I checked I was somewhere around level 40+ and had been through all the areas left of lions arch (and ventured a little into the norn starting areas with a friend earlier) it was at that point that I gave up because of the issues outlined in the thread, I just wasn’t enjoying the game and didn’t feel like doing it for another 40 levels.

firstly, the blame is squarely on Anets shoulders for claiming you can play how you want in the first place, a seasoned dev like them should know better than to promise things you already know you can’t possibly deliver, and a game that can be played any which way you want is simply not possible, too many different preferences and too many unreasonable nutters who will take the term too literally.

secondly, I do expect to go to a theme park and have 100 + goes on the rotating clowns, and on the 150th try I would expect that I have the same chance of winning the big prize as when I started, not to be told that now I can’t win anything not from the consolation box just because I’ve played too long.

thirdly, you don’t understand something very key to game development, you aren’t making the game for yourself, you are making it for your players (no this isn’t entitlement speaking, this is game design 101) and if they don’t enjoy it then nuts to you.

lastly, you can’t make a game and then put arbitrary limitations on the players because you want them to “play with all of it”, if someone only wants to play one aspect of the game, and you are forcing them to play parts they don’t enjoy just because you think it’s better than something is wrong with that designer. you don’t punish people for playing the content they enjoy. what a good game designer would do is add INCENTIVE to diversify game-play, give people a reason to try multiple aspects of the game WITHOUT punishing them for only playing one, it’s all well and good to get people to try new things, but it’s a whole new cake when you force them to play parts that they don’t enjoy when there are perfectly good parts they do (and it’s not as easy as “go play something else” sure that’s a solution for the player, but it doesn’t help the game get better, and I think ANet will agree with me that it’s always good to make your game better).

P.S. the last half I’m not just talking about DR, believe it or not they do it in other ways as well, and those other ways usually fly straight into the face of their design philosophies.

Derpinator.2894:

1) spawn a personal Crier when you get relatively close to a quest who runs over TO YOU and offers you the quest. I haven’t thought through the details, but maybe if you get in the same 1/4 of the zone as the quest giver, or when you accidentally loot a quest related item? In any case: Hub avoided, heart avoided, quest gained.

for heart quests it needn’t be that complicated, just give the option of hiding the objective/quest until you’ve spoken to the quest giver (keep tracking the players progress towards it), and events don’t really need anything special because from what I’ve seen they are pretty evident that something is going on when you get there so it kind of makes sense that you already know, if anything you just need to make the specific details of the event hidden until you get much closer to the area and just give a general outline of the event location and type when it pops just so people know where to go (you could go as far as hiding the event details until you speak to the giver on some specific events).

because WoW is obviously the standard by which a games success or failure should be calculated.

for every case you can show me where a game that launched with problems has come back strong I can show you one where it struggled to go anywhere at all.

truth is at this point in time you can’t tell whether the game will succeed or fail.

brickforlife.1364:

Diaboligue.8795:

@brickforlife huh? Wow community is pretty friendly

I’ve played WoW for a few months and it seems that most of the encountered community are elitists and trolls. Rest of it is pretty nice though.

that’s only because they have a higher total number of subs, so their are more people who are like that, but believe it or not once you get past the outer layers of trolls and elitists you can find a really great group of people who just want to play and have a good time, funnily enough most of them are on the RP servers, the people that trolls and elitists often kitten on, it’s like the bad rep that some RPers get is an anti-troll spray and goldshire is the magnet that keeps invading trolls away from the nice places.

Zale.9645:

Zoridium JackL.7463:

^ that’s not dying, that’s the population stabilizing after release.

Psst…Ask him to prove it.

I don’t need to, he’s quite right that people are leaving, it’s just a simple fact of MMO life, after the initial release phase you get people leaving in droves, from those who didn’t like it to those that got burnt out too fast, and even some who left because of actual flaws within the game. the mistake he is making is assuming that equates to dying, it MAY cause the game to “die”, but it’s by all means just the population trying to reach a stable point, whether or not it makes it through the stabilization phase with enough people to carry on depends entirely on how many people enjoy the game and are reasonable enough to not jump ship as soon as they see an ice cube on the horizon.

^ that’s not dying, that’s the population stabilizing after release.

when you’ve logged on more than once before realizing the game is terrible?

I kid, of course.

maybe someone should compile a list of posts that constitute feedback and/or discussion, and posts that are nothing more than blind hate/praise. it would just be nice if we had some sort of standard to differentiate, because it seems like some people think that someone with a different opinion on something that they personally enjoy is the same as blind hate/praise.

personally I try to give valid points and feedback, even to games I don’t enjoy (I posted a very large wall’o’txt on this very forum, I like to think it wasn’t just blind hate)

Tharjax.9068:

Lysidian.4653:

Why make a thread about it if you arent worried?

you know ignorance and bliss and all that.

I’m not worried, but there is threads going about regarding this games survivability, this thread is to prove that there are individuals who claim something but are not telling the truth….You know the whole “a picture says a thousand words” saying.

Move along kid.

I’m sorry to tell you this, but a picture of full servers after the game has been live for a MONTH does not constitute any evidence of LONGEVITY or SURVIVABILITY.

give me the same image in 12 months time and maybe you’ll have a point.

won’t let me quote either, ANet needs to get on that.

“Zoridium JackL, for some reason it won’t let me quote. But anyway, I think we can both agree that WoW makes the trinity a necessity. It’s not absolutely necessary to run dungeons with because there are always skilled players looking for a challenge that go with unique builds and have strange group make ups. For the most part, the trinity is standard fare.

I don’t think Arena Net has taken anything away. It’s like saying that I am forced to not use a railgun in Modern Warfare 3 when such a weapon isn’t available in the game. The holy trinity was not removed from the game; it simply wasn’t made available to begin with. I’m not trying to be a smart kitten or anything but that was simply how Arena Net decided to look at it when building their game from the ground up.

Then again, we both could be wrong as some people say you can have tanks and healers; they’re just played differently than you would traditionally. Tanks (guardians) aren’t really damage sponges but they do have support skills that protect the group. Elementalists and rangers have AOE heals but they’re not super powerful heals. That’s where the roll mechanic comes into play. You avoid or mitigate damage so that uber heals aren’t necessary.

It’s a fairly new design philosophy and it will take time for players to adjust to. The philosophy behind it is sound but the execution could use some work. I personally don’t think GW 2 is revolutionary so much as evolutionary."

WoW didn’t force it originally, it’s the way the game has adapted to teh player base, everyone was using the trinity, so what started as Blizz supporting the trinity turned into Blizzard designing around the trinity, I haven’t played in a while but last time I was there it was still possible to run without the trinity, it was just difficult and you had to try and butcher your ay around the mechanics.

that being said the “evolution” (I wouldn’t call GW2 anything more than another MMO personally) shouldn’t be removing the players ability to build tanks/healers, the evolution (or more appropriately de-evolution) should be opening the dungeons up to alternate group compositions, don’t you agree that giving the players the ability to play the way they want is better than making them play the way you want them to? I don’t like the way ANet handles the trinity anymore than the way Blizz handles it, but I certainly wouldn’t call ANets way a step forward.

again I’m gonna talk TSW (I try not to fanboy to hard) and the way they handle it, the skill wheel is open to building well outside the trinity if you want and the dungeons, while easier with the trinity (task delegation and all that) they are all for the most part do-able without it, even then I fear they may go awry because the new LFG tool heavily supports the trinity and not much else, but I’m waiting to see how they handle the community feedback on adding a more detailed comment to the LFG tool.

either way I think it’s a much better approach than simply restricting peoples ability to play how they want with regards to the trinity, something WoW and GW2 have in common, they are just at different ends of the spectrum.

I’ll say it again, the “solution” they use doesn’t actually address the real issue and if anything makes it worse than it was, and what’s worse is that they get praised for doing it because people don’t understand the issue in the first place (which funnily enough IS the issue in the first place)

zeromius.1604:

Zoridium JackL.7463:

6. I think people blew the whole trinity “issue” way out of proportion to begin with, it actually has a place and serves a purpose, not to mention some people enjoy playing that way. and even if it were a problem the way GW2 handles it is poor, they handle it by limiting your ability to build your character the way you want, you don’t have the option of building a proper tank or healer no matter how much you might want to, it’s a poor solution to a non-issue.

While there are great comments being made here I wanted to respond to yours. I think the most contentious is the holy trinity. I don’t think it’s necessarily a broken system but some people may find it to be. It’s not so much an issue itself but it does limit the design choices the developers have available to them. Having dedicated tanks and healers would force designers to design content specifically with the holy trinity group make ups in mind. When you move away from this you create the potential for a larger variety of content that can be tackled in many creative ways. Notice I said potential rather than saying that this is true right now in the game’s current state. I think there are some balance issues but like any new MMORPG it will get ironed out as time goes by.

I think that when you mention limitations on how you want to play your character you are speaking on limitations of what your character can do. No, I agree that the game doesn’t let you play a dedicated healer or tank even if you want to. The game’s dungeons simply weren’t designed with them in mind because if they were then healers and tanks will become mandatory. Allow me to elaborate. If you have a build that lets you absorb a great deal of damage and draw all enemy attacks on you alone (a tank) but the dungeon is designed in such a way that this particular build is unnecessary then you trivialize the dungeon. It’s all about balance.

Once again, I don’t think the holy trinity system is broken. It’s just very limiting in terms of game design potential. I’m a former WoW player. I never hated the game for it’s holy trinity system. I loved the instant queues I got as a tank and the almost instant ones as a healer. As a tank, I can As a DPS, aside from long queue times, I found that my role was not as important as the tank or healer. Yes, I know things don’t die without DPS. It’s a matter of how much control you had and not whether you were needed at all, CC not included. Maybe it’s just me but in GW2 I found that everyone had equal responsibility and all players were vital to the success of the group.

I disagree, it’s very easy to not design content that requires the use of the trinity, in fact it’s better to design content without the forced use of the trinity than it is to just remove the trinity. and I can play without the trinity in other MMOs, I frequently do in TSW, despite a majority of players using the trinity it isn’t required by any means, it’s just the easiest way to do it.

the problem with WoW is that it forces you to use the trinity if you want to use their group tool because of its auto grouping, but a fair few if its dungeons can be run without the trinity if you can find people who want to run it that way, it just takes more communication and a little more hard work.

again, I would think it’s a much better idea to open up your dungeons to alternate styles of play rather than limit your players ability to play how they want. just because the trinity is the easiest way to do things doesn’t make it mandatory, and that’s really the major misconception amongst players. people will always run with the trinity where they can, not only is it the path of least resistance but some people also find it the most enjoyable way to play, removing it was a bad move. rather than actually addressing the issue (the issue being how player perceive how dungeons “must” be run) they put a band-aid over it and made it look like they’d fixed the problem.

this is why I enjoy TSW, I can run without the trinity if I can find 4 other people, it’s not the easiest way to run the dungeons, but It most certainly can be done, in GW2 I don’t have a choice either way, I am forced to run the dungeons without the trinity, which is the exact issue you are complaining about but instead of being forced to use the trinity I’m being forced to not use it.

again, it’s a poor mans solution to a non-issue.

as much as I respect your right to have an opinion, and as much as I agree with a few things you say, the only response I can formulate in my head is…. what?

I just want to make note of the reverse, the amount of blind praise I see, brought on by an over abundance of marketing hype that doesn’t ring true in the game that has been digested and engorged by people who blindly buy into it is astounding.

but I wholeheartedly agree with the OP, these people, on both sides, who spew blind hate/praise do nothing but prevent people from forming actual arguments and kill good healthy discussion dead in the water, and it stops people who might enjoy the game from playing, and sometimes cons people who wouldn’t enjoy the game into purchasing.

Janx.3192:

Zoridium JackL.7463:

because WoW is totally dead, they are definitely gonna be shutting the servers down next week because GW2 killed it dead.

get over yourself, WoW will die one day but it won’t be because of any single game and it will be a slow process (one that actually started a while ago), as it is now WoW is still going strong, and I’d be surprised if it weren’t doing better or equal to GW2.

1st wow is totally dead? a)Are u serious? b)GW2 is going downway cause of DR..which they wont fix it.
2nd wow will die when blizzard goes online with titan..
and 3rd can u compare blizzard’s staff with Anet’s?Pls dont be subjective
im gw fan as well but thats the truth. Get over YOURself
2nd

you missed the sarcasm, and the second paragraph it seems.

because WoW is totally dead, they are definitely gonna be shutting the servers down next week because GW2 killed it dead.

get over yourself, WoW will die one day but it won’t be because of any single game and it will be a slow process (one that actually started a while ago), as it is now WoW is still going strong, and I’d be surprised if it weren’t doing better or equal to GW2.

I disagree with quite a few things you say, but I’m only gonna comment on 2.

6. I think people blew the whole trinity “issue” way out of proportion to begin with, it actually has a place and serves a purpose, not to mention some people enjoy playing that way. and even if it were a problem the way GW2 handles it is poor, they handle it by limiting your ability to build your character the way you want, you don’t have the option of building a proper tank or healer no matter how much you might want to, it’s a poor solution to a non-issue.

9. I think shared loot is a much better way to do it, I like sorting through the loot and dividing it up between the group because it feels more social, it also can make gear easier to obtain by eliminating the possibility that useless things drop for people, and the only things you are likely to get are things you need, you’ll get less overall loot but most of it will be relevant to you in some way.

the trinity was rarely if ever needed in any MMO, it’s just always been the path of least resistance, and I do disagree with their decision to remove healing and tanking, I enjoy healing and I enjoy the structure the trinity offers for PUGs, if I want trinity free gameplay I can do it just as well in other games.

it’s just the population settling down, believe it or not but WoW numbers of subscribers are extremely uncommon (if not unheard of) in the real world, and it’s not surprising that the population isn’t as active as they were, not only will a fair amount have left (and will keep leaving as they “finish” the content, as they do with every MMO) but once people start reaching end game they rarely go back to earlier zones, instead gathering in wherever the most productive “end game” zone is.

nothing to worry about though, it happens with every MMO, it only seems quiet now because you don’t have any accurate indication of what noise to expect (and you probably won’t have any idea for a couple months).

firstly, it’s VERY easy to make such a subjective side by side comparison to make a game look good, you can see it in your post, it wasn’t an objective assessment it was you listing off buzz and glorified features and then taking WoW and using negative and often bullkitten words you make it sound like what WoW has is worse.

1.) The ability to continuously explore the world, and still get loot relevant to your level. (you can do this in WoW just without the loot, and in other MMOs you can do it with the loot)

4.) 30+ different dungeon paths for tokens to get cosmetic gear (different paths same dungeon, and that cosmetic gear? it’s a GRIND, yet you felt the need to use that in similar WoW listings, just not GW2… wonder why that is? (Don’t answer I already know, you didn’t make this list as an objective assessment you made it as a bias spewing piece of kitten))

5.) World boss encounters for loot ( I get that in other games, WoW included)

6.) Legendary weapon “grind” (I get that in other games, I also noticed you felt the need to leave out carrot on a stick part, like you did it in WoW, maybe you sould look into your bias problem)

7.) Achievement “grind” (can do that in other games)

8.) Ability to max all crafting professions (can do that in other games, also noticed you felt the need to say “max” while not using it for WoW)

1.) PvP, Arenas, etc. (grouping all PvP together here but not in GW2? Excuse me but your agenda is showing)

2.) Faction “grind” (yes it is a grind, and GW2 lacks factions in any real capacity as far as I can tell)

3.) Carrot on stick “grind” gear score dungeon runs, to next dungeon runs for gear with better stats (I see you used Carrot on a stick here, an you also grouped dungeons and loot grind together? you didn’t do that for GW2 you left them separate, probably some innocent explanation because you totally aren’t biased)

4.) Achievement “grind” (can do in other games)

5.) Pet battles (that’s right they did add that in didn’t they? never tried it myself but I did enjoy pokemon)

6.) Crafting (you forgot to say max all)

7.) From final dungeon runs, to raid “grind” for gear with better stats (here you go again with the grouping of raids and gear grind)

8.) Other stuff I am sure I’m missing (yeah I’m sure you intentionally missed stuff to, because you can only think of 8 things to list for GW2 and if you list more for WoW it might undermine you biased argument)

let me make my own list, and I’m not gonna be objective, I’m gonna list the things I can do in GW2 at endgame that interest me (because things that don’t are subjectivly to me a grind because I don’t enjoy them) and the things I can do in TSW endgame that I enjoy.

GW2:
1. dungeons
2. quests
3. world bosses

TSW:
1. dungeons (which I prefer to GW2s dungeons)
2. questing (again I think is better than GW2 questing)
3. lairs
4. world bosses (slight overlap with lairs here but not entirely)

end story, stop trying to present your horribly biased and subjective listing as if it were a completely factual assessment of the two games end game, it makes you look like a fool.

nerva.7940:

how has it not earned goty? it’s like saying Obama didnt earn the Nobel for inspiring and giving hope to people. gw2 will easily get the goty award.

it hasn’t earned it because it isn’t the best game released this year? I’m not sure I can make it any clearer than that, firstly it’s hard to compare two things in different genres, even in the same genre it’s hard, games are something that vary a fair amount from person to person and something that sells a lot isn’t necessarily “the best” (even if there is a best) and even then I see many issues with the games design that aren’t actually due to its core intent or who their target audience is, a GOTY should hypothetically be the game that is better than the rest and as far as I’m concerned GW2 isn’t a “better” game, it’s just ANOTHER game.

I wouldn’t give it game of the year, maybe an honorable mention as one of the best MMOs released this year, but the best game overall? I don’t think it’s earned that one.

“So when you say “questing” in GW2 are you referring to the Hearts? If you are comparing Heart “quest” to most traditional MMO quest then yeah, the rewards and overall complexity is stronger in traditional MMOs (for most) but keep in mind Hearts were sprinkled on in the later stage of development, they are not your primary source of entertainment or progression through GW2. You could in fact think of them as bonus content.

I guess if I’m understanding your complaint correctly I would agree that quest are kind of weak in GW2 but then again they aren’t the only way the story is delivered. The combination of Hearts/Events and Personal Story provide a unique experience that counters grind and tops anything else I’ve played."

when I say questing I mean every aspect of it, heart quests to events to personal story, the whole shebang. my complaint is that because of how the features are implemented and come together it makes questing for questers very bad indeed, you HAVE to grind if you are a quester, it isn’t countered by anything in the game questing related, it’s countered very much by alternative activities but that doesn’t really help much of your primary interest is questing and everything else is the definition of casual interest.

understand this, the heart quest is the bread of questers in GW2, they may not be the majority of the content and they may not be the focus of questing, but they are the driving force behind questers experience, once I’m out of heart quests my options turn into stand around and do nothing (much) while I wait for proper quests to pop up, OR move on to the next area, but I can’t move on to the next area without grinding and just standing around waiting for events is not only boring but it makes me want to move on and as such any events that I’ve been waiting around for become un-enjoyable grinds so that I can move on and have semi-decent questing (even if it is only until I have to grind again).

despite heart quests being such a small and simple thing there is a lot hinging on them for questers (and not really anybody else), when the bulk of your quests are semi-random events than you need to give people something to do in the mean time, but questors have nothing but heart quests (the reason why they exist) and they fail to do the job, both as quests and as filler content between events.

LordYz.8941:

How hard is it to find a area for you to explore?

easy; finding a place to quest? not so much.

seems you missed my entire point as well but that’s what happens when you don’t read.

“Go (back) to SWTOR?

My favorite questing of all time was vanilla WoW, but it wasn’t really immersive until I used thottbot/alakhazam to supplement the quest dialogue with all the additional story, lore, and behind-the-scenes info those type of resources contain.

I guess I’m just more willing to immerse myself; I attribute that to excessive sci-fi/fantasy reading as a kid. That is to say, I don’t mind not having the story handed to me as if this was television."

never played SWTOR, and I’m not really interested in starting, anyway this isn’t about what game has better questing or whatnot (as I said I already play an MMO with superior questing so that isn’t my issue), it’s about making the questing in GW2 fulfill its potential.

it’s also not about quest giver dialogue, even the standard dialogue in GW2 serves its purpose fine, what I meant is that while it’s fine as quest dialogue, it isn’t able to mend broken immersion, and again not talking about immersion as a character in the world but as a player playing the game.

I’m not “less willing” to immerse myself, as a matter of fact I try very hard to immerse myself in good game worlds (the lore for WoW outside of the game is actually very interesting, one of the reasons I played it as long as I did), and I don’t care how loosely the story is handed to me (well, as long as it’s there at all) I’ll always look into it myself if it’s in the least part interesting, but as I’ve said my issue isn’t with that (although it does crop up occasionally), it’s with the OTHER immersion, the kind that makes the game seem like nothing but grind.

“So are you wanting the hearts and things you kill to be lowered in level somewhat so that you can progress without ever being too low level? I suppose the other option is to give more exp per heart completed, but not sure what effects that would have on the game (though it would be easier to implement than the first idea, in my opinion).

I can understand that. Unless I have misunderstood, in which case… I er… I don’t understand that?

In any case, this is the one game I have played where I haven’t felt like I have had to grind for hours on end just to achieve some end goal. I am also pretty big on exploring and LOVE the vista idea. Getting me to stop and look at the world has really made me appreciate it for what it is and I am glad for that. I don’t feel forced. Just like I wouldn’t feel forced to enjoy a nice piece of cake after sampling (and enjoying!) the batter."

that’s pretty much what I’m getting at, and yeah the progression is a little hard to alter without potentially affecting other aspects of the game,

and if you’re into exploration than you’d be hard pressed to find a better questing system, it’s just that as a quester I’m kinda throttled by my progression being slower than the zones progression.

Voqar.2349:

I couldn’t read that wall of text. More paragraph breaks. It doesn’t matter what you’re saying though since I would disagree 100%.

The “questing” leveling/xp system in GW2 is the best I’ve ever played. It’s so vastly superior to the refined quest hub system that exists in formula MMORPGs that there’s no contest.

Hub questing beats camp and grind from ancient times but that’s about it. It’s an incredibly boring and blatantly repetitive grind…it’s just a quest grind instead of a camp and grind.

my wall’o’text look so much more formatted in notepad, but then the forums went and bunched it all up :[

anyway I will clarify (again) that I’m not talking about quest hubs, I like having the quests scattered around the zones, i didn’t dislike hubs but I much prefer getting out and about for quests.

johnnycosmic.9130:

Wow you had a lot on your mind.

Some games you walk into a town and every npc in there wants you to do something for them. Thankfully in this game your not crushed to death with quest at every turn.

I like questing in GW 2, out of box its great and it could be easly added too in future.

again, I’ve always liked non-hub questing.

Stevoli.8795:

BTW, I’m not sure how long you hang out at each event area, but a majority of them seem to have multiple stages, followed by an escort mission that takes you to the next “quest” area. So really, each heart area can have up to 4 quests if you just hang out and watch the events unfold rather than running to the next heart.

On one of my alts I rushed through the starter area, going heart to heart completing them, and I was only level 12 by the time I finished the 1-15 area map. On another alt, I stopped and did each event, and the escorts missions, and ended up around level 20 by the time I finished the same map.

I always follow them to their conclusion, it’s a shame to see when people leave at the end of the first collection phase and it’s only me and one other guy that ends up following them back and fighting the whatever gone wrong thing.

I’m gonna make an analogy though as to why no matter how many good things the questing in GW2 has I still considered it the worst I’ve ever seen.

you could make me the greatest cheesecake on the planet, and I LOVE cheesecake but if a dog kittens on it than I’m still gonna have an impossible time enjoying it.

Calavera.1086:

You have a very well made point there but I like the way the game is now. You are a very conservative MMO player and I respect that, but GW2 is trying some new stuff and it’s completely natural that not everybody will enjoy it, specially the more conservatives.

I’ve read an article last week from a blogger that talked exactly about this questing hub mentality and how some veteran MMO players would find it hard to adapt to the new concept of dynamic events, which are the main source of XP in this game. He went from heart to heart completing them in an organic order without attending to events, exploring or crafting at all and he quickly found himself under leveled for the next heart he needed to go to.

Kudos to you for the very well written topic. But in my opinion GW2 is great the way it is.

but i DO attend events (every single one that pops up, I make a point of it) I did do some exploring (nothing too out of the way mind you, but I definitely stopped to smell the roses on occasion) I’ll admit I don’t do a lot of crafting (doesn’t interest me in the slightest), either way I’m still underleveled as long as my focus is questing and not some other activity that I don’t enjoy.

and I am anything but conservative, I’m all for innovation and the like, and again I couldn’t care less for quest hubs, I think events are fine for the most part (they’re not what I take issue with) my problem is with the way the quest system as a whole fails to support itself, the event system for questers is let down by the off progression (for questers) and devolves into grinding, the event system only works if you have something to do between events while you wait for a new one to pop up, questers have nothing because heart quest fail in every respect.

JazzyJay.1367:

I think GW2 questing is great. I would say the thing that stands out to me the most is that it cuts down on running time. Running is the biggest time sink in MMOs. I am tired of running back and forth to quest givers just for the sake of picking up a quest or turning it in. Those days are gone. Thank you ArenaNet for removing the ridiculous amounts of running!

How do you think Marathon 2012 would work out as a console game? I am surprised EA Sports hasn’t created a series.

funnily that feature has been on its way out for years, it wasn’t ANets sole effort, but it’s good to see it go regardless, it’s the same issue as forced exploration, it just turns the world space into travel zones.

gurugeorge.9857:

Yeah totally disagree, but it’s a well-written post and I can understand where you’re coming from, even while I disagree.

But I have to say that I too find questing in GW2 about a million times more immersive this way than the usual quest dispenser method. It’s quest dispensers, quest hubs and quest “paths” that make the process completely mechanistic for me. For some reason, the orange pop-ups and map pop-ups denoting hearts and DEs don’t feel so mechanistic to me. Probably just some psychological difference.

But I certainly wouldn’t object to the option to have the on-screen and orange map pop-up infos turn-offable, for those who want that complete “fog of war”.

(Btw, if you’re heavily into discovering stuff for yourself, you do realize that the map icons can be turned off too? That way you have to actively hunt for POIs, hearts, talk to NPCs, etc., etc., etc.)

just to clarify, I’m not talking about quest hubs or anything like that, I’m glad to see them go and have been ever since MMOs started doing it, the whole “dispenser” thing as well, it’s just as bad to have your questgivers devolve into nothing more than a talking head that tells you what to do next, GW2 does do a good job of that to a degree (some of the questgiver dialogue can be pretty… cookie cutter), when I talk about paths or natural progressions I’m not talking about clear cut things like go from this questgiver to this questgiver ect., I’m talking more about as a character in the world I am traveling in this direction, because of both geographical location and level distribution, even hostile enemy type plays a role (like how I wouldn’t call the metrica province a natural progression for a ow level sylvari because of how it deviates so far from what makes sense for a sylvari to be doing in the world space), you know how some games at the higher levels have all the zones be disjointed so that you have to do a lot of travel to get to one another? it’s the opposite to that, zones that just naturally feed into each other without being devalued completely into “I’m this level so I should go quest in this area”, I hate that feeling it makes the zones feel so… grindy.

I also have no issue with how events are presented, it can be a little sketchy on immersion sometimes but as I said it tends to offset that itself, it’s one of the things that wasn’t PURE marketing hype, you really do get to watch some events unfold via the event system and the way they are presented works with that because they aren’t always things that have a quest giver at one end waiting to give you the go ahead, if they weren’t so repetitive and there was perhaps a more consistent actionable way to trigger them there wouldn’t be a such a problem with the sense that you are forced to grind them, but then again making them something that players can cause on a whim defeats the purpose of them to a degree (although most of them can to a degree be player initiated, they just depend on the player being somewhere when a set of conditions have been met, those ones tend to be my favorites).

whatever I say don’t misunderstand, there are many things ANet did RIGHT, there’s just some bad implementations that make for an overall bad experience despite the good parts, this is what I mean by potential, questing could be so great if it weren’t for these few major drawbacks.

Stevoli.8795:

Zoridium JackL.7463:

it’s not a matter of wanting more content or wanting to skip content, it’s a matter of wanting to experience the current questing content in reasonably immersive way without having to grind out a few levels every few quests.

It sounds like you are wanting a single player game, to be honest. One that progresses from point A to point B with no break in the storyline.

I’ve been having the opposite problem, I seem to be leveling up too fast. Literally everything you do in this game gives you XP. It’s hard to even walk 10 feet without getting XP from something. I got a few levels just from crafting. I dinged once from raising someone.

I’m not sure if you are using foods or potions, but those give you a pretty good boost. Might help you level a bit quicker to stay at level with the map.

I’m not asking for a single player game, and believe it or not you don’t have to be a single player game to offer good questing (GASP), you see, I don’t get exp as often as you because I don’t enjoy doing a lot of those side things, I enjoy questing and sometimes casually detour into something along the way, but the bread and butter of my gameplay is questing, which sadly seems to be one of the things that doesn’t offer an aweful lot of exp thus causing all the progression issues that questers face.

I did try using exp boosters to offset the slow progression, but I still ended up under leveled for the next zone, not by as much, but still enough to make it less than worthwhile endevour :[.

"

I was sympathetic until you started HAHAHAing at someone who enjoys the questing in this game. Now its obvious your just a troll. Hearts are not quests at all. DE’s are the only quests in this game.

Hearts were only added as an after thought because players wanted a bit of guidance in the zone. So, really, the hearts are just map locations that reward a bit extra with extra effort. Dynamic Events are the primary quests in this game and they are the only part that should ever be expanded or worked on. Personally I find them bloody brilliant and is the first time I have felt a part of the game world in an MMO in years.

Hearts already perfectly serve their ONLY purpose which is to attract players to map locations where the REAL quests spawn: Dynamic Events."

not a troll, I just found it funny, I mean did you read his post? it basically equated to “is good because is good”, that is not what I call valid discussion, that is what I call pointless opinionating, and I’m still waiting for them to clarify their reasoning because seeing as how you missed the rest of that post I’ll explain that I did go on to be serious and ask him what his reasoning was, he was very vague about it in his original.

anyway, what you’re saying is I’m expected to just STAND AROUND doing nothing so that I can see the same quest I’ve already done several times pop up again? I’m sorry but not only is that grinding, but it’s BORING grinding on a new level, I’m sorry but heart quest fail at that goal as well, they fail to keep me occupied long enough to run (the same) events until I’m appropriately leveled, as I’ve said many a time, if your primary focus is questing than your kitten out of luck, events, while interesting, are just another way of being given a quest, and when it leaves questers out there floundering while they wait than I start to question there “bloody brilliance”.

so not only do hearts not make for good questing, but they completely fail as draws for questers to events, no matter how I look at the questing system it fails to offer a good experience for questers, sure if your focus is elsewhere and you have plenty of other things to do than the questing system couldn’t be better, but I don’t enjoy most any other feature in the game as a primary focus.

I don’t feel part of the game world, I couldn’t feel like part of the game world IF I TRIED (and I really really did, many times) between the constant forced grinding and constant removal of any immersion, I couldn’t go more than 30 seconds without being booted from the game world and any sense that I was a part of it. it’s really sad to me because I think that it’s such a great world to be immersed in and for me it looks like the games questing has fallen off a cliff not five meters from the finish line, the game comes so close to offering a great questing experience while still managing to fall so far into sub mediocrity (again, only as far as questing for questers is concerned)

"

@OP, so you want heart quests to give triple the XP that they give now so you can move on to the next map without doing anything other than heart quests, or you want triple the heart quests so you can run around ticking them off before moving to the next map?

You know, originally those hearts weren’t even there, people had to actually explore to find favor NPCs and events. They were added in later because people wanted some sort of “direction”."

honestly? no, I don’t want more exp, I just want to continue questing, the problem for me is that I can’t think of any way to allow continuous questing without an exp boost unless they were to reformat the level brackets of the entire game.

an interesting Idea was combining the starting zones for sylvari and the little guys because they are so close together, it could work if they gave a better connection between the sylvari and the inquisitors, and the little guys with the nightmare court, and then you could feed brisban wildlands into the kessex hills a little more smoothly, but the issue there is that it only alleviates the issue for those two races for those few levels, the rest of the map doesn’t allow for such zone grouping without bracket changing.

the idea behind the grouping though is that those that get zone completion don’t have to do the other zone but those that want to quest get twice as many heart quests/events over a larger area so they won’t have any trouble leveling for the next zone, the real issue is the tie in because you need to conserve the immersion to avoid the issue we already have, again the caledon forrest and metrica province are prime examples, they sit so close together yet going from one to the other doesn’t work as a natural progression without some heavy reasoning on the part of the player, and even then it still only applies for a couple zones,

ultimately I’d rather see more heart quests and have them be repeatable rather than increasing the exp hand out, but since this game isn’t targeted at the questing audience I hardly expect them to put such time into questing content, exp point increase is just the most reasonable and easy way to make the questing progression flow from the development standpoint.

it’s not a matter of wanting more content or wanting to skip content, it’s a matter of wanting to experience the current questing content in reasonably immersive way without having to grind out a few levels every few quests.

“If you take the time to talk to the heart quest giver, they’ll fill in all the blanks about why you’re doing what you’re doing.”

sadly it’s not quite that simple, once the immersion is broken it is very hard to re-establish it, especially with such basic quest giver dialogue.

Jack of Tears.9458:

the way you play isn’t compatible with my software,

that isn’t true in the slightest, our ways of play are very compatible, questing and exploration go hand in hand, particularly when you aren’t using quest hubs as means for quest giving, I’m not asking the game to be stripped of exploration, I’m just asking that I not be FORCED to do it, I think it not only cheapens the exploration but has severe impacts on my questing, it’s odd how such small details and implementations can cause two usually hand in hand play styles to be so different, the point is that if you are exploration driving with a touch of questing you;ll find few games better, but if you’re questing driven with little-no added exploration on the side than you have serious issues with being unable to progress by any means other than grinding.

as I said, I think the questing in GW2 has loads of potential, and believe it or not it’s close-ish to my cup of tea, it’s just these few minor major things that need to be tweaked in order to remove the grind, it would have no impact on your way of playing while also making the questing for people who mainly quest a thousand times better.

Algreg.3629:

the condescending tone, the same complaint and the huge walls of text probably implies you are that guy from that other huge thread about the same thing, just with a new identity. What happened, got blocked for insulting everyone that disagreed with you at last?

sorry to disappoint but I’ve never posted under a different name, if I sound condescending than it’s because you’re reading that into the post yourself (try reading it in a more light hearted kind of tone, that might sound a little closer), I don’t insult people for having a different opinion and if they disagree I try and refute their points with actual thinking and productive discussion.

Algomyth.5479:

Hey Zoridium guy, you wrote all that BS just to say “I want to talk to npcs to get quests”. So go talk to them, whats keeping you? You dont like the quests on your screen? disable them.

mind telling me how to disable the quests on my screen, i tried to find an option but couldn’t see one, also that’s one paragraph of the post, mind reading the whole thing before giving such a half assed and unhelpful reply.

Algomyth.5479:

I would like some gear reward too from them but, hey, this is not enough to call questing “the worse”. Actually its the best form and I wonder why anyone before them didn’t apply it.

not talking about gear rewards, I did actual make a note that i wasn’t talking about gear rewards, and that’s not why I called it the worst (I like the way gear is done in this game, for the most part anyway), I called it the worst because it fails to do what questing should, hide the grind, but in GW2 they are forcing questers to grind in order to keep questing, it defeats the purpose of disguising grinds as quests, you might as well not have quests and just call them “grind points”.

Algomyth.5479:

Manufacturing verbal arguments, just to attack a system that lets EVERYONE play like they want, is so out of fashion. Get real.

doesn’t let me play how I want, not unless I grind more than I quest (which isn’t an exaggeration, I spend as much if not more time grinding levels to progress than I do questing, play how I want mykitten , fashion? out of? I don’t give a single flying kitten what’s in fashion, my post was about trying to provide feedback to the devs as best I could, and if you ask a dev weather or not feedback is in fashion I guarantee you that they’ll say “I don’t know if it’s in fashion but I want it” because as a game dev it’s the most useful thing a player can give you (well, that and money, but I’m giving them both).

no level restrictions? maybe when you get to 80 but up until then as a quester I have no choice but to grind, you see, if you’re into exploration as your primary activity than GW2 is great, but if you want questing (not grinding, there is a difference) to be your main focus than you are kitten out of luck, you HAVE to grind to experience the content you enjoy.

exploration is indeed better than grind, but for some people exploration IS a grind because they are only doing it to get levels so they can keep doing the things they actually enjoy.

again, I’m not asking for quest hubs, I like the quests being scattered around the area the way they are, I have ZERO issue with that, my problem is that once I’ve done the quests in an are I am not allowed to move on without grinding, it’s not actually possible to do as a quester.

Echo.7634:

Questing in GW2 is probably one of the best aspect of the game.
I can almost guarantee that you will see this in games/mmo’s moving forward.

Its a great and refreshing change for the better as far as gaming goes.

hahahahahahaha, thanks, needed a good laugh.

in the event that you weren’t kidding, would you mind explaining why? as far as I’ve seen most of the good things about it (and there are several) are trumped by the shortcomings that serve only to cheapen the experience. the most refreshing part of it is the lack of quest hubs (seen it done before, but that doesn’t make it any less pleasant) and to a degree events (although events in and of themselves have some issues and the whole idea of them has been done before except not to such a large degree).

AlexanderFaust.4518:

Zoridium JackL.7463:

AlexanderFaust.4518:

Zoridium JackL.7463:

AlexanderFaust.4518:

MrThebigcheese.2014:

That video is pure sales hype.

Grats on having an opinion :P
*The video still explains the “direction” ANet wanted to take GW2 *(Avoiding typical MMO structure) IE: No typical quests.

they said they didn’t want typical quests or grinding, well grats ANet, what you’ve given me is VERY typical quests with nothing but grind.

do you see what I’m saying? there questing is not only bad, but goes completely against there entire design philosophy. if their game was even half like that manifesto makes out it would be a GREAT questing experience, sadly it’s nothing but unfulfilled potential atm.

Guess we can agree to disagree then.

if by disagree you mean you have absolutely no grasp of the point I’m trying to make and fail to understand that there is actually a difference between questing and grinding and that GW2 has completely failed to distinguish between the two than yes, we can agree on that.

Already said I don’t have the time to read your “walls of txt”.
So yea.. pretty much

I just took your topic at face value

If you want people to reply in more detail, make a youtube vid or something.

I was gonna make it a youtube vid, but then I remembered that my rambling is bad enough in text form, in video form I would go on for hours :]

AlexanderFaust.4518:

MrThebigcheese.2014:

That video is pure sales hype.

Grats on having an opinion :P
*The video still explains the “direction” ANet wanted to take GW2 *(Avoiding typical MMO structure) IE: No typical quests.

they said they didn’t want typical quests or grinding, well grats ANet, what you’ve given me is VERY typical quests with nothing but grind.

do you see what I’m saying? there questing is not only bad, but goes completely against there entire design philosophy. if their game was even half like that manifesto makes out it would be a GREAT questing experience, sadly it’s nothing but unfulfilled potential atm.

AlexanderFaust.4518:

Zoridium JackL.7463:

nerva.7940:

Zoridium JackL.7463:

I’m gonna say this now so you know where I’m coming from, the Questing in GW2 is flat out the worst questing I have personally ever seen in an MMO,

i find exploration, DE’s, with sprinkles of personal story and hearts to be the best leveling experience ive ever had in an MMO.

you’re missing the point, you’re an explorer, you enjoy exploring and doing events along the way, I enjoy questing and exploring along the way, you can stay zone appropriate level and I can’t because exploration is a requirement with questing being practically optional. shouldn’t both ways of play be supported? shouldn’t people interested in questing be primarily able to quest?

Seems you’re expecting something from GW2 that they’ve addressed as something they’ll NEVER support.

IE: Grinding quests.

So from that point of view.. I think you’re right, GW2 does do “Quests” poorly.. mainly because it’s not of any interest to them, in fact something they want to avoid.

I feel I should reference the GW2 Manifesto ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKtGxVj3msM

firstly, I laughed at all the stuff in that video that is nowhere near true of the game, seriously, the best part was when she mentioned bosses spawning ten minutes after you kill them, like that totally never happens in GW2 (that was sarcasm).

secondly, I’m talking about questing and not grinding, at the moment I can’t quest without the game making me grind, I don’t want to grind quests for exp, I want to quest because I enjoy questing in and of itself, but no matter how hard I try the game keeps telling me that I’m only allowed to grind things I don;’t enjoy doing.

nerva.7940:

Zoridium JackL.7463:

I’m gonna say this now so you know where I’m coming from, the Questing in GW2 is flat out the worst questing I have personally ever seen in an MMO,

i find exploration, DE’s, with sprinkles of personal story and hearts to be the best leveling experience ive ever had in an MMO.

you’re missing the point, you’re an explorer, you enjoy exploring and doing events along the way, I enjoy questing and exploring along the way, you can stay zone appropriate level and I can’t because exploration is a requirement with questing being practically optional. shouldn’t both ways of play be supported? shouldn’t people interested in questing be primarily able to quest?

just to clarify I’m not talking about quest-hubs or anything like that, I’m glad to do away with that.

It’s at this point that I want to talk about rewards. my reward for doing the quests in an area is to go do something I don’t want to do just for the exp OR go and grind quests in a way i don’t want to for exp, basically my reward for questing is a negative reward of having to grind in order to keep questing, you see, my reward for questing is grinding and my reward for grinding is questing, it’s a loop that gets repeated until I am XX level and no longer have to worry about being levelled for the next area. what SHOULD be happening is a null reward, that’s how an experience centric game should work, my reward for questing at the very least should be the ability to continue questing, right now that isn’t the case.

the solution for this isn’t an easy one I suspect because of how level distribution has been done, but I’ll say this, for a quester being over-leveled is better than being under-leveled, particularly in this game where we get downscaled (great feature BTW) for the area, so IMO the best solution is ensuring that after completing all heart quests and a fair few events that the player is levelled enough to proceed to their natural progression at the least, this can be accomplished by raising the exp gain to the appropriate level, the problem with this is that it means those who enjoy multiple activities will over level the content even faster (but again if they are doing it because they enjoy it this should;t be too much of an issue) and more importantly, those that think max level should take a longer time will find that it takes not much time at all, there are two ways to offset this, one is to change the level progression of the areas so that you aren’t levelling faster you just don’t need the levels as fast, the other is to raise the level cap with a future expansion and offset it after the fact, the former is probably the better although I doubt you have the resources to accomplish it or at the very least have large technical barriers that would stop you, the latter would be much more reasonable and would achieve a similar effect, at the expense of faster progression to level cap in the short term (although since this game doesn’t revolve around the idea of reaching level cap and then getting end game i think this is a minor issue).

Another issue that arises from the progression is with EVENTS; I like events and the way they are presented is fine (although the way they pop up is a little immersion breaking, I think it’s offset mostly by how evident it is when you get to the location, and they tend to be the kinds of things where word would travel) the problem is that they are repetitive as all hell, you DO have the option to not do them (which IMO would be the ideal fix for their repetitiveness atm) but that becomes a non-option of sorts due to the progression, I feel like I can’t afford to miss them because if I do I’ll be forced to grind out the exp later anyway, this has a double effect of making the event in question seem like a grind anyway and also breaks character immersion in a lot of cases due to the repetitiveness. over time I suspect they’ll add more events and tweak the chances of them happening to lessen the repeat performances we see a little bit, but until then this remains an issue for questers.

that’s really the big issues, I could go on all day with petty nitpicks but that would be unproductive and tedious, so I’ll spare you the boredom ;]

now you need to look at this in perspective, these issues in the grand scheme are probably not that important at all, but as far as questing goes these have a large impact on how enjoyable someones questing experience will be. I’ve tried to provide accurate and proper feedback rather than just complain about things, and I’ve tried to offer possible solutions, I’m not gonna bother with an empty “I’ll leave” threat because they are childish and stupid, I’ll probably keep playing this game every now and then regardless but I still want to see the game fill its potential. I apologise for what I’m sure is repulsive grammar and off key spelling, I’m more concerned with whether or not I got my point across accurately than whether or not the dictionary still wants to be my friend (it doesn’t). Pleas do reply with your own thoughts on the questing in GW2, I am genuinely interested in what other people think of it (no that was not sarcasm).

P.S. wall’o’text apparently