Guild Wars 2

DHawk.2687:

well then i don’t see where the problem is, if a shatter, no matter in what scenario reveales, that’s fine
and i personally don’t mind the high stealth uptime
but what bothers me a bit, i was roaming with friends yesterday, one of them PU mesmer, he had the trait, that everytime he gets stealth, it decreases his torch cd’s
the thing is, when we stacked stealth as thieves ( Pistol #5 + Shortbow #2) it also reduced his cd, so fast that he could spam the skill as much as he wanted
that imo needs to be tweaked, so only stealth from either yourself or mesmer stealth decreases the cd

I created a thread about that trait, perhaps you could comment on it and make sure your voice is heard. I also feel a lot of the “high stealth PU OP mesmers, plz nerf” from other people (not you) is in relation to the torch trait which is just plain old bad.

Fay.2357:

@Apharma:

That’s not correct. When a Mesmer shatters, you should think of the clones as large, slow projectiles that the Mesmer shot at something. Despite the damage being produced when a clone finds the target, the Mesmer is the ultimate source of all shatter effects. This can easily be seen through a second or two of testing, either with stealth/revealed or by using the scepter block/counter on a shatter.

I stand corrrected, thanks for the info as always Pyro. I’ll edit my post accordingly.

1. Yeah it’s annoying but that’s a learn to play issue. Get used to not stealthing after using auto with staff.

2. Turn of auto attack and auto target.

3. As corrected by Pyro below. When a Mesmer shatters, you should think of the clones as large, slow projectiles that the Mesmer shot at something. Despite the damage being produced when a clone finds the target, the Mesmer is the ultimate source of all shatter effects.

To make it easier you just need to know the source of the damage. If the sources of the damage is in stealth it will become revealed. If you are not the source of the damage, you do not get revealed.

Forgot to mention, it only affects direct damage, if you apply a condition but didn’t do direct damage you will not be revealed.

Edited in light of Pyro’s post.

Yeah I know what you’re saying Carighan however it’s also worth saying instanced content is 5 player and most skills/traits have a 5 player cap.

It’s essentially balanced around a full party.

In all the games I’ve played it’s very hard to balance around 1-100 without factoring in scaling which has it’s own problems of hidden mechanics.

Having said that if we were to bring PvE also into this discussion of PU I can flat out say giving another class the ability to help skip via invis and then by portal and alternating it is fantastic. No longer are we mostly reliant on thieves or possibly engineers for skipping which is nice. Though GuardWAY is still a thing and incredibly strong for skipping also.

I also forgot to mention stealth generally loses value when scaling up to that 100 player fight. Not massively like pets but because there’s AoE everywhere you’re always on the outskirts and generally mobility skills will help more to jump into protection range of your zerg than stealth as AoE will still get you.

Note: That is not a reason to tone down stealth.

Yeah I was thinking of things like -1s for each stack of burning or something like that to keep the spirit of an active cool down reduction but quite frankly I think 20% as it was is just a lot simpler to balance around. Especially with PU.

Choppy.4183:

@apharma
I replied to your comment already and even gave an indication of when I’d be looking to get off the PU crutch. You also suggested it’d be better to try it out after the golem week was over. You do know what day it is today, right?

I also said do your best in this week as most roaming groups are finding out that fighting in golems isn’t great given chill, cripple, immob etc. You also quoted Denis in your response and given the number of circles we keep going round I missed the last bit about PU crutch.

Choppy.4183:

I’m also not sure how to factor in the increased dps I’ll be facing post patch. Open to ideas if you have them. Of course, I could forgo the whole experiment by pointing out that none of you stalwart defenders of PU have actually admitted to using it… In fact, I think you’ve all said that you don’t. Ptetty easy to conclude from that alone that the buff wasn’t particularly needed. Same with the general lack of demand for a stealth boost to PU pre-patch. I could also just ask all the people I know who main members whether they felt they were just free bags in Wvw. I’m fairly confident they’ll laugh at the idea.

Guess you missed me say this:

As someone who played with and without PU pre nerf, then pre patch and now after, I can honestly say mesmers needed a stealth boost to disengage as I only ever got away with decoy+blink or if I was let go due to easier lootbags closer to the enemy. Anything less than 5s isn’t enough to put distance on a class that has poor swiftness.

So, no, you don’t get to simply blow off testing yourself. Mesmers also lost the cripple on clone death trait, so now we have fewer ways to slow the enemy down, don’t you think mesmers with poor swiftness should be compensated for, perhaps by some kind of buff to stealth disengage? As for more damage, you do more damage too, so go figure.

Choppy.4183:

I’m also not auto dismissing PvP elements. More than one of you guys made the case that the PU stealth buff provides little benefit there, yourself included iirc. If you want to walk back on that point, go ahead. But you’re the one taking PvP out of consideration by saying PU doesn’t matter there, not me.

Here it is, you “taking PvP out of the equation.”

Incorrect. Someone, you maybe, originally made the point that it didn’t provide a stealth benefit in PvP and so it shouldn’t be nerfed. My response then, and to you more recently, was that the proposition that PU stealth doesn’t matter in PvP pulls PvP out of consideration on whether or not the trait should be nerfed.
Every example I’ve given in support of a nerf has come from small to mid size Wvw, which is applicable in at least 3/4 of Wvw play.

Thing is, you can’t, as it’s the main balancing mode. This is what the game is balanced around. I also believe people said extra stealth is of less benefit due to point capture mechanics, not that it doesn’t matter. You’re whole argument is effectively saying, we should ignore how it’s balanced in all other game modes but WvW which by it’s very nature is really unbalanced not just in game mode but in stat inflation and general opponent differences.

Choppy, while we’re on the subject of dodging questions:

If you had a party, they generally gave you what you needed, especially thieves (stealth) warriors (swiftness) and eles (condi cleanses) which were all abundant whatever you did. Solo it was a different story.

Don’t take my word for it, go solo roaming with this build and see for yourself. I left out trait options as they either weren’t what people usually ran or they ran traits that were made baseline. Even just jump into WvW with your group and see.

Feel free to switch to S/T as well and see how it works for you.

Edit, lol forgot about golem rush, try the best you can this week but definitely try next week when things get back to normal.

You asked why it shouldn’t be nerfed, I said because 3s of stealth isn’t enough to get away with in WvW as you’re auto dismissing PvP elements. You said you thought otherwise and that mesmers were not easy kills pre patch.

I challenge you to run without PU, the build above which should give you the pre patch experience. Antitoxin runes can double for hoelbrak. Only difference is nike warriors got their obscene movement cut down but they should still outpace you.

Edit: On the subject of people surviving party wipes, thieves often do in PvP as well as other classes with high mobility like warriors, engineers and elementalists. In WvW Warriors, rangers, engineers, thieves, elementalists and now PU mesmers survive due to great disengage. What’s your point?

This is again without anyone paying attention to that torch trait I brought up earlier and how it can get as low as a 13s CD in stealth. Before you blame PU, the torch trait is simply bad, it’s bad on it’s own and it is completely bouncing off the walls strong for camping stealth with PU and other sources of stealth exclusive to the torch.

DHawk.2687:

just shows you don’t play thief xD
yes the damage got buffed, but so did every other class’ damage
e.g. pre patch i had 2,2k power and 220% crit damage, my backstabs hit for 9-13k almost all the time
NOW i have 2,85k power, 250% crit damage and you can barely get over 9k xD
but yeah we are so strong
thief is somewhat the weakest class, it works when playing in a group, but 1v1 you always need to have more skill than the other player to even have a chance, 2 players on the same skill lv, thief dies instantly. done deal, If you ask ppl around, especially the good players will ALL say fighting a thief is a joke, no challange at all, if you think thief is so good, try him out and die, over and over again

Yeah it’s weird, I barely get over 9k BSs now but I have more power and crit, well in PvP. In PvE I get 20k BS and rediculous HS and C&D numbers. Maybe there’s a bug or something because I feel all the extra power in PvE but not WvW where I have massive stat inflation too.

I don’t agree with the last part though, generally I either win or get away. I guess if you count someone getting away as a win then yeah but I call it a draw if they come back after CD’s are up.

I wouldn’t be averse to a shave in cool down by about 30-60s. Slow is strong but it doesn’t have an effect on movement speed so it doesn’t stop anyone running out of it.

Did you know quickness doesn’t just speed up your actions? It halves the duration of certain skills. Blurred frenzy being the mesmer example but swirling winds and consecrations I know last half as long. It probably affects wells and many other things which can be good or bad depending.

DHawk.2687:

As i said before i don’t really mind the long stealth uptime when fighting a PU mesmer with zerker stats, that’s managable
and mesmers are able to get out of a fight without PU, the stealth was enough, at least in my opinion
the only PU build i really do hate is condi, condi is so strong post patch, add that to PU and at least for a thief it’s almost unkillable, mostly if i see a PU mesmer, no matter if he just entered wvw, if he’s at full hp, i won’t engage, it’s just not worth it

Fair play on the PU condi but then they trait the torch which is massively over performing trait with PU and massively under performing without. Ideally I’d like to see that trait changed first then reassess PU as it is causing some huge variance in stealth for mesmers.

I created a thread about it but people seem to be looking but not commenting so it seems to be falling off front page. Perhaps you want to check it out.

As someone who played with and without PU pre nerf, then pre patch and now after, I can honestly say mesmers needed a stealth boost to disengage as I only ever got away with decoy+blink or if I was let go due to easier lootbags closer to the enemy. Anything less than 5s isn’t enough to put distance on a class that has poor swiftness.

bhagwad.4281:

Thief stealth =/= mesmer stealth.

I agree but I was just showing a comparison of stealth uptime.

bhagwad.4281:

For one, a thief can’t stack stealth in a fight without painting a massive target over his head saying “I’m stealthing! Do something! You know I’m here”. As a mesmer, here are things I can do to counter thief stealth stacking:

1. GS 5 on BP or Refuge
2. Focus 4 on BP or Refuge
3. Stand in the circle and disrupt the stealth stack chain
4. Cast Chaos storm on it

Other classes can do even more. I mean…you know the thief is there! That red circle is a huge marker.

However nothing stops them getting further away, then stealthing up and re-engaging which is what happens with good thieves. I fought one the other day and while yes there is some counterplay by the time I get to the 1200 range they’re stealthing at they’re done and are setting up. You also brought yourself in range and made it easier to BS you.

Mesmers also want to be next to you to burst you, the same logic applies to them otherwise they will do a pitiful amount of damage. Additionally mesmer auto attack is half that of thieves.

bhagwad.4281:

A mesmer’s stealth skills on the other hand are instant apart from Mass Invis (which they can start casting before their other stealths run out). Instant casts means no counterplay to prevent it – unlike a thief. Torch stealth is immediate. Decoy is immediate.

Immediate but not without tells. Torch has big flames appearing and blasts after it’s done which can make you revealed if you’re sloppy. Mass invis has almost a 2s channel with a big white border expanding from it’s cast point. Decoy, fair play.

bhagwad.4281:

Next – a mesmer doesn’t have to be in melee range to initiate a decent burst. Completely unlike a thief for whom, burst = at the side orbehind you.

Yes they do and fixed it for you.

bhagwad.4281:

So please stop pointing to thieves and saying “Oh, thieves can stack stealth”. Sure they can…at great personal risk. Mesmers can stack stealth without huge signs over their heads saying “Here I am!!”

Great personal risk? I never knew waiting for initiative to regen was a risk and yes I do play thief, I would usually run it after being fed up spending a few hours with the terrible mesmer disengage being an easy focus. The ease of their disengage is fantastic.

You also forgot how blinding powder blinds people so they will generally need to remove that first otherwise whatever you do to counter a thief stealthing will fail.

That’s without pointing out you missed the spirit of my post. It was a comparison of stealth uptimes but mainly to highlight just how silly The Pledge trait is in how much stealth it gives.

DHawk.2687:

but the difference is, that thief needs the stealth to maintain it’s dps, mesmer does not, ranger does not etc.
they stealth time mesmer had pre patch was fine, and noone asked for a buff
or am i mistaking? :/
what they did is make mesmer somewhat the new thief, just stronger

The problem is clones were meant to be part of the defence of mesmers but clones without giving the mesmer stealth don’t confuse anyone. Added to that the removal of clone death traits and there’s really no punishment either for mowing down clones which are also the source of a mesmer burst.

My question to you is, where would a mesmer get survivability and how do they gtfo without stealth? They have blink and phase retreat which is nice in PvP where you can shortcut up a ledge etc. Outside of that they have a F4 distortion and that’s kinda it.

You can trait signets for distortion and I do in PvE (mainly for the signet heal to keep phantasms up) but generally signets are pretty poor. Midnight is alright but it’s essentially like eles signet of air, alright but you wouldn’t pick it.

If you pick sword offhand or use the scepter main hand they do have a block but currently they’re kinda clunky and unlike other blocks they only block 1 attack then leave you stuck in a counter animation for follow up burst.

So yes, mesmers do need stealth and while the increased duration of PU wasn’t asked for recently people weren’t happy with PU after the boons were watered down. The increase in duration allows you to really slip away from a bad situation especially in WvW.

Don’t take my word for it though play a build without PU in WvW and you’ll see how little it helps you escape. In PvP it’s neither here nor there but certainly helps your personal survivability at the cost of your team survivability by not going inspiration and illusion.

Choppy.4183:

Lol, I didn’t ignore it, it was just irrelevant to the point.

Here’s a whacky idea for you… why don’t you mount a case in defense of keeping the PU stealth buff where it is? With most mesmers apparently opting not to take the trait, and no mesmers calling for a stealth buff prepatch, what’s the reason for the dogged defense again?

How many times must we say this in how many threads?

You can’t assume to change something and ask people to defend the change citing people don’t use it as grounds to nerf it.

DHawk.2687:

1 question, are mesmers supposed to be a stealth class?

Considering they have had 1 weapon and a few utility slots that grant stealth since day 1, yes.

That’s without mentioning that no-one worth balancing the game around should be getting confused by mesmer clones for longer than a second without some form of stealth to lose that giant red target.

We could ask the same of rangers, engineers and soon to be guardians with trapper runes as they have access to stealth in some way in various amounts. There was a nice post on reddit about stealth uptime a while back, sadly finding it will be like finding a needle in a very big haystack.

I hope Anet takes their time and brings things down slowly. A good place to start is the stats and to scale the damage aspect down a little. Another good place to look is that horrible torch trait.

Mesmer Stealth no PU, no reduced cool downs:
Torch off hand: 3s, 30s CD, 10% uptime.
Decoy: 3s, 40s CD, 7.5% uptime.
Mass Invis: 5s, 90s CD, 5.5% uptime

That is pretty kitten low. I don’t include veil or mimic as they’re specialized uses and generally not worth the opportunity cost.

Mesmer Stealth PU, no reduced cool downs:
Torch off hand: 6s, 30s CD, 20% uptime.
Decoy: 6s, 40s CD, 15% uptime.
Mass Invis: 10s, 90s CD, 11% uptime

Even using all of them to stack stealth you’re looking at 22s of stealth and waiting 8s before torch is off CD again with decoy you need to wait 18s. If you’re complaining about that what I say next will blow your mind.

Mesmer Stealth PU, reduced cool downs:
Torch off hand: 6s, between 13s and 24s CD, 25-46% uptime.
Decoy: 6s, 32s CD, 18.7% uptime.
Mass Invis: 10s, 72s CD, 13.8% uptime.

Well kitten, what’s happening here? By running the illusions line we get a slightly higher uptime on decoy and traiting mass invis is pretty nice (13.8% uptime isn’t exactly game breaking though) but hey, what’s this with the torch trait? Could it be that this trait is what’s causing the obscene amounts of stealth in WvW? Could it be that maybe PU isn’t as much of an issue as people thought?

Thief stealth:

No SA:
C&D: 3s, 6 ini cost (so 6s CD), 50% uptime.
BP+HS: 3s, 9 ini cost (9s), 33% uptime.
BP+BP: 6s, 40s CD, 15% uptime.
SR: 12s, 60s CD, 20% uptime.

It’s also worth pointing out a thief can HS through a smoke field multiple times to stack it (managed 9s myself) and so long as they have any sense and aren’t running auto target they shouldn’t hit anyone. By the time their stealth runs out they will have all or most of the initiative back.

I really don’t want to start on the SA line as you get +1s from a minor and it becomes a lot harder to compare due to the -25% damage minor, the 1 initiative every 3s in stealth trait and whether you run the reduced cool down on deception without even mentioning improvisation.

Choppy, stop with this thieves get 3s of stealth and have less than mesmers BS. It shows you either have no grasp on stealth and the mechanic or you need to learn to thief.

Thieves can stack stealth to stay in stealth permanently and choose when to engage. They also have a short bow for extreme gap opening if the fight goes sour and can then stealth engage after. Many are training stealth on steal as well so that’s a teleport, damage, heal, stealth into backstabbing and heartseeker.

This is without mentioning you’re mainly talking about WvW and as that other person mentioned in another thread, use stealth traps if they’re really giving you a problem.

Now, how’s that pre patch mesmer build I linked for you working for you?

Ele in PvE doesn’t just blow Mesmer out of the water, it blows it 3,000 miles in land and buries it 6ft under its meteor shower.

As a Mesmer in most speed clears you’re there for portal and time warp (maybe reflects). For casual runs, whatever you like but your job would be done just as well by a guardian with less effort and more tagging power. No I’m not meaning staff, I mean just doing upfront AoE damage that isn’t reliant on a brain dead AI that at best can be described as suicidal.

Mesmer is nice for a change of pace especially if you have no guards and really excels when guards aren’t around. However it rapidly becomes less important when guards appear and considering how many players love guardians it’s pretty common.

Staff ele is as far as I know the highest or second highest dps in the game second to only thief and can provide a lot for the party even if things start falling apart. If you already have a zerk staff ele I see no reason to get a mesmer unless you wanna ditch guards in your usual party.

Open world it’s up to you, few people care but Mesmer has problems keeping up without investment in swiftness uptime and trouble tagging stuff due to lack of AoE and phantasms having poor scaling.

Wow, that is so very, very sad, pathetic and disappointing to hear. I’m so sorry for you UW guys, you were always fun to play against when I was on WSR.

Look at it not as a they will dodge it.

Look at it from a “They’re gonna shatter so I’ll use my invuln state…wait why am I blinded?!”

It shouldn’t go through invulns or evasion frames, sorry but it’s just BS when things do that, like some guardian stuff.

If you give portal to other classes then mesmer becomes possibly the bottom class for anything PvE orientated. Their damage outside of burst is absolutely terrible and about 50% tied to AI and we all know how much rangers QQ about ~30% of their DPS put onto their pet.

That’s without mentioning the terrible AoE they have and the way their auto attack damage is half other classes. Seriously go check it, it’s hilarious to compare.

So yeah, please don’t give portal/veil to others.

If you had a party, they generally gave you what you needed, especially thieves (stealth) warriors (swiftness) and eles (condi cleanses) which were all abundant whatever you did. Solo it was a different story.

Don’t take my word for it, go solo roaming with this build and see for yourself. I left out trait options as they either weren’t what people usually ran or they ran traits that were made baseline. Even just jump into WvW with your group and see.

Feel free to switch to S/T as well and see how it works for you.

Edit, lol forgot about golem rush, try the best you can this week but definitely try next week when things get back to normal.

Choppy.4183:

Purecura.1795:

This truly displeases me because people are acting as if the class cannot be beaten now, but what I really see, are people whining about how they could kill the class before without thinking twice, but now, they actually have to work hard.

That’s because it’s what you want to see. While Mesmer required some finesse before, it wasn’t the most complicated class to play and was actually more accessible than the gw1 mesmer.

Now it’s insanely easy to play, and a major threat to boot. Not invincible against everything, obviously, but definitely not balanced.

Mesmers weren’t free bags before either. You’re fooling yourself if you think otherwise.

Lest my comment be interpreted otherwise, I don’t think mesmers as a class should be reverted to pre-patch, and I don’t think they should be hard to play. But get real.

You’re fooling yourself by saying they weren’t free bags pre patch. Everyone except guardian had better mobility than mesmer. The only thing a mesmer could do to escape a bad situation in WvW find a nice place to port up to where the enemy would take longer to get there. If not, they were chased down and murdered with ease and I say that as someone who has chased down and murdered them on all classes and being on the other end of it.

PvP it’s much easier because of point mechanics and the rediculous amount of stuff to LoS behind.

You should also add that some runes are prohibitively expensive with alternatives being either not very cheap or sometimes require you to PvE a fair bit to get. For example nightmare runes, hoelbrak, strength etc.

That’s without mentioning ones you can’t get any more like generosity or the recipes aren’t around like tormenting and perplexity which also require items which are hard to get.

It depends on the builds tbh.

Running the new fotm mesmer with PU, MI, decoy and torch and power lock/CS and blinding dissipation (bugged) then yeah it can be harder for other classes.

Running the good ole classic shatter from pre patch you’re still up against it big time, 3s stealth isn’t a lot to get away with if you need to buy time and only MI will help in that regard unless you use moa/timewarp. Even then it’s dubious if it would help.

When I play without PU I find survivability tanks quite a bit, especially for roaming.
If I drop CS at the same time it goes back to pre-patch days almost where mesmer has to really play their socks off not to get roflstomped by most classes pressing 2 buttons.

That’s without mentioning thieves have had a bit of a nerf too, not straight up but certainly a shave or two.

The problem is a lot of people want us to go back to pre patch days and that wasn’t a sustainable place to be. It wasn’t friendly to beginners, very unforgiving and had the build variety of a Model T Ford.

Thanks Pyro.

/15char.

Edit: So I decided to do some maths comparing pre patch damage vs post patch damage. It’s a very rough first draft and I would greatly appreciate it if you could give it a check over, point out glaring omissions or correct values that may be off. Posted below.

P.S. I expect the first responce to be “Good lord wtf is this mess”

This is why there’s no point discussing or staying on this topic, you’re just a raging ranger who acts like a child. Good luck on your nerf quest but it won’t stop you getting destroyed till you start checking your surroundings.

I’ve been playing around with the formula and I get the MW damage on crit to be about 8266 against a 2k armour target with my current mesmer sitting on 2419 power 220% Ferocity. Now I’m guessing that’s divided between the 3 clones but I’ve seen people hit for 5k on each clone.

Even adding 450 more power (guard stacks, food, bloodlust stacks) I get it to be 9804 which if divided between clones and self wouldn’t explain a 5k MW hit I took on my thief the other day. Running it as a 2 clone shatter I end up with a crit of 5663 but I thought that had already taken into consideration what each clone does.

Any chance you could help me understand this a little better?

Edit: I think I know where I went wrong. I was working out skill damage not actual damage, forgot to use multipliers and now get each clone doing 3774 damage off the 9804 skill damage number. I also get about 4300 per clone for the 2 clone shatter which is in about the right area.

My own mesmer should be doing 3182 per 3 clone shatter with myself for 4 lots of damage. Never knew 450 power could make such a large difference in damage of about 2.4k.

WilnerGW.3275:

Every opinion is welcome here. But if u dont wanna discuss anymore jus tgo away. thx

Then care to welcome our opinions by showing the original video where you drop your pants faffing around for a few seconds not checking out your surroundings?

blitzkrieg.2451:

apharma.3741:

The video isn’t there, the one linked in the original post was 15s long, showed him dawdling and not looking behind him for 4s before bursting on someone then being burst himself.

The OP took the video down and then edited it, re-uploaded and replaced the link. The one linked to now was published a day after this post was made and very clearly has been edited to only show the burst happening not the run up to it.

Yes but my point is that everyone here thinks the ranger bursted that mesmer down quickly when it was actually the golem that did 70% of that damage when the ranger did almost nothing to him at all with an entire burst skill from ranger (2,6k capped damage, again, half of a mind wrack) from the only burst skill on the ranger longbow set and using that as a basis for a “SEE A RANGER CAN BURST TOO” argument when it’s clearly no where even close in comparison AT ALL, then look what happens when you accidently don’t look behind you from a shatter mesmer? That blackgate wasn’t even dodging, he was sitting there taking the damage, he didn’t need to react.. See the difference in burst between a zerker mesmer and a zerker ranger? The dmg is over the top on shatter mesmer in wvw and pvp at the moment and comes with an amazing set of viable survivability which is precisely why everyone is running fotm mesmer right now, specifically inspiration mantra shatter builds.

The zerk ranger, oh wait he’s got knights so not full zerk, didn’t get too offload most of his damage. I never said the ranger in that vid had done his burst only that he was intending to do it.

With no might, no buffs, nothing, my ranger easily does a good 10k from rapid fire, with quickening zephyr it all hits in 1s and I can do it from a very safe range to +1 a fight. Ranger has a great way to burst and a lot of survival too.

Besides, I don’t like having discussions with people that go back and re-edit their stuff to remove the bits where they messed up. He messed up because he wasn’t looking behind him which was shown in the original video, which is the reason he was bursted. He has gone back to edit that out to appear like the burst just came out of nowhere and is so OP.

Torch cool down if traited can get horrifically short, think I got the prestige down to a 13s cool down by sitting in stealth the whole time.

Change the way that cool down works and you will at most be able to get 22s of stealth from a PU mesmer without them showing up. They would then have a 2-4s cool down before torch is ready again (assuming no mimic or veil) to feed into decoy and then they’re out of stealth 12s later with MI still on a sizeable cool down.

The video isn’t there, the one linked in the original post was 15s long, showed him dawdling and not looking behind him for 4s before bursting on someone then being burst himself.

The OP took the video down and then edited it, re-uploaded and replaced the link. The one linked to now was published a day after this post was made and very clearly has been edited to only show the burst happening not the run up to it.

WilnerGW.3275:

Those analysis were perfect! Maybe i didnt made myself clear till now: The problem is not only the DAMAGE itself. Its how mesmers do insane damage with GREAT survivability/desingages.

Finally some coherent and weighted analysis, and not some “L2P noob”

Well I’d love to recheck the video but it’s no longer there.

I’m pretty sure rangers got a lot of survivability in their RF from 1200 range build, I know I did especially with SoS, lightening reflexes, entangle, traited survival skills and GS.

Edit: Oh you even have quickening zephyr to burst people down in 1s from max range, how cute that you’re QQing.

So how would you try to change it Mikkel?

Wilner, try using quickness and you get it off in 1s more or less and because you’re so far away most people won’t see till the arrows land.

Stop getting mad because you forgot to check behind you when you decided to try and +1 a fight from a range where they couldn’t hit you.

As WoC said, damage is too high right across the board, even yours if you get with the programme of toughness means almost nothing. Build zerk, keep looking around and learn to dodge the bursts. Then have fun rapid firing everyone down from your safe 1500 range.

So there was a thread about perma stealth and in it there seemed to be some ambiguity about how much the torch trait reduces cooldowns by. It says 1.5% recharge reduced but it seems more like 1.5s for every second in stealth.

The point of this thread is to discuss:

1. Is it over/under performing.
2. Should it really work by sitting in stealth to reduce the cool down.

With PU and the pledge I was having the cool down of the prestige at about 21.5s and with using mass invis you could get it down to about 13s which meant you could keep stacking stealth upon itself. I was able to get the phantasm down to about 16s with using the pledge, PU and any 6s stealth ability and 11.5s with PU and MI for constant stealth.

At the same time the cool down reduction with just using the torch skills is very lacking at being anywhere between 0 and 2s in reduction without any other stealth and only the trait The Pledge.

My personal feelings are that I don’t like how it promotes stealth camping and when combined with PU, makes for a balancing nightmare as well as giving stealth builds a very high uptime on torch abilities. It also isn’t as useful to game modes where sitting in stealth is detrimental to the game mode and so you may not get much benefit from the pledge.

Thoughts and opinions below and try to keep it civil.

Everyone was QQing about ranger rapid fire after its buff patch, doesn’t mean it’s all justified.

Oh and the irony about that is they buffed ranger longbow in this patch lol.

Thing is 1s extra of stealth isn’t a “build defining” grandmaster trait and the boons are so watered down you can’t rely on them.

PU in that state wouldn’t be worth taking over the other 2 traits and in no way comes close to other classes defence line traits when looked at in their relevance to the class.

WilnerGW.3275:

Theifs and warriors have insane burst too, but not as mesmer burst. Plus, about the warrior, its SO MUCH HARDER for a warrior to set up a burst with 100 lb than for a mesmer.

Thiefs and warriors are are OK imo atm. Im not trying to defend thief/warrior cuz ive never playe them(i only play ranged builds). I just have to admit they arent not OP atm;

It wouldn’t have mattered what class it was, whether it be fresh air ele, killshot warrior, mediguard, mesmer, thief, SD engy or necro, you weren’t looking behind you so you never saw it coming.

If you were looking behind you, you’d have seen the mesmer either stealth or throw the mirror blade and could have dodged it. You weren’t so you didn’t see the tells and got killed because of it and I guarantee all other classes except maybe ranger could have burst you down that fast.

I said it in another thread and I’ll say it here. We just need a few more ways to flush people out of stealth. Not saying add it to everything, just add it to one or two ok skills and you’ll be good. I’d love it if AoE reveal was added to one of the ranger F2 traits so they could be the snoopers.

Guards are getting a reveal trap with dragon hunter which does good damage and bleeds so it’s one way forward. The engy trait is…ok but competes against something a lot better imo. Could add AoE reveal to fear me or something so rather than thieves simply steal thing up to heal up and avoid damage they can have the blanket removed so the warrior can finish them.

Then, and this is the important thing, we can stop needing thieves and buff them a little.

I don’t think that Mesmer needed stealth tbh, you weren’t looking behind and it could have quite easily been a thief. Coulda been a frenzy killshot or frenzy 100b warrior too and they’d have downed you as fast.

Thief steal into backstab and heart seeker with the quickness when attacking from behind trait, would take the same time and instagib you.

I’ve tried running with toughness in WvW recently, it doesn’t feel like it does much against any zerker not just Mesmer.

Sorry but tests on someone who is giving the most opportune way to land it and makes no attempt to dodge tells us very little. You land a 100b with quickness and it will deal a lot more than that and it’s one button. Should we nerd 100b? No because you’d have to be brain dead to be caught in it without it being set up.

This is without my comment that from what I gather it was warlord of chaos doing those bursts which he messed up even in testing on a perfectly set up target. Not a slight on him but he’s a lot more experienced than the average mesmer.

Besides, from what’s been said in the perma stealth thread it looks like the torch trait is what’s wrong with all this misgivings people have on stealth.

jayson.6512:

Why every time i post in this forum you guys always say the same “learn to dodge” as if i don’t know that, i already commented this to other thread that my 1vs1 buddy is a mesmer and pre patch i can win against him depending on the build but after this patch i always lose so please tell me did my buddy become so pro and i become so bad just after the patch? just to add only mesmer class i’m having a hard time killing but guards 50/50.

Depends what your build is, class and how you intend to win.

For example a bunker guard that made a mesmer spend a few minutes trying to kill him, even if the guard died but kept the point he won the fight because he got more points.

Now if you’re talking about a dueling arena where people abide by a strict set of self imposed rules…well you’re being beaten by yourself at that point by not playing the way the game is being balanced around.

It’s not a dig at you or anything, it’s just that a bunker with the absence of a point will at best stalemate. Likewise someone who specializes in locking down opponents and creating moments of opportunity for others to capitalize on will be at a disadvantage.

http://www.dtguilds.com/forum/m/6563292/viewthread/12497837-dnt-mesmer-build-specialization-update

Is a good start point.

Also http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mesmer_-_S/S_/F_/P seems to be a better specialization choices and explains things and is what I’ve been using.

Yeah switch it out with what you like, as I said it’s a WvW build where stealth helps a lot. if they fixed the pistol trait you could even pick that up with a pistol for bleeding fun and have krait runes.

jayson.6512:

don’t care if they nerf reckless dodge i don’t even use it and rampage. My point is with that burst you can kill any 1vs1 or 1vs2 without the need to outplaying the other player look i don’t want the mesmer class to be nerf to the ground but it’s not really fun fighting a class that you can’t outplay. And it’s not just a video i fought a mesmer almost similar to that build and i end up dead in seconds.

but but but…people were doing this pre patch. Especially on necros that were only trying to harvest the herbs nearby (yes I spotted that on the video) and in “duels” which the game is not, nor should ever be balanced around.

Try a condi build then.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNArfWlsnhy0YjawINwtGLvGk5KmRNRDQObSZC6d0A-TZRHABws/QSlBE4UAAwDAI4jAAA

Is what I’m using in WvW but with perplexity runes as you get a lot of confusion but undead and nightmare runes are good choices. Switch between either feast and mirror depending on what you like.

Oh and I run PU for the extra stealth in running away when a 30 man zerg comes to kill 10 of us -.- but I adjusted that for you.

I thought you couldn’t get torment or perplexity in PvP.

Wanna heal and support? There’s a shout, AH, bunker guard build making a come back. High healing power, really pumps out the support.

No matter your toughness, healing and health, you still gotta dodge though.

Krait is also not a bad choice for those bleeds