Guild Wars 2

Phantom Master.9582:

Woah, thats a lot of roasting there buddy. We don’t have enough cold water for all of his burns. xD

Well, he is called pyro, lol.

apharma.3741:

Is PU with decoy OP? I don’t think so.
Is PU with traited decoy OP? Not really, especially in PvP.
Is PU with decoy and torch OP? It’s a strong combo, no more than on other classes equivalent.
Is PU with traited decoy, traited torch and MI OP? This is where the majority of people have issues.
Is PU with veil OP?LOL no, no chance, not at all with the way veil works.

Just figured I’d throw that in there as a reasons to keep it. Really it’s only getting “out of hand”, “broken” or “too much” when you run with everything to give stealth and all the reductions. Still it’s less investment than a thief has to put in to simply slip away in stealth all the time as our thieves in mesmer clothing won’t attest =P

I give something a look if I see a certain name and make my own conclusions on it. In no particular order.

Menaka
Fay
Caos Archangel
Frifoxy
Osicat
Warlord of Chaos
Subcutie
Helseth
Maha
Ross Biddle

To name a few. All have a main focus, whether it be PvE, max damage, PvP, WvW, interrupt, phantasm, weird builds or just calling people idiots for being idiotic.

It would break pretty much the entire thief class as they rely on 3-4s of stealth but stacking it. It would make mesmers more mandatory than thieves for skips and for any surprise attack in any game mode.

Needless to say that preventing stealth from stacking is much like nuking hurricanes to disperse them. A very bad idea.

Also bring back bunny ears.

A mesmer without bunny ears is a sad mesmer.

Yes, even the big, pink, hairy norns.

Tissitra.4153:

UrMom.4205:

Tissitra.4153:

OK so to say that mesmer has been unviable prior to the changes the way necros or rangers have been unviable is plain wrong.

Here is a simple question: if mesmer has so much counterplay, then what build on what profession is currently actually good against/superior to a mesmer? Certainly not a power build since mesmers right now essentially counter any of those. Against most bunkerish builds mesmers will win now with the worst thing possible is that they might have to disengage. Finally, condi builds are countered by going into inspiration.

You can’t just ask for what specific class builds are good vs mesmer as a whole. Mesmer has different builds too. They aren’t all running some power shatter reflect daze pu perma stealth condi torrment heal cleanse interrupt perplex build.

Well I obvously mean the prevalent power builds – say mantra shatter.

I remember Frae from oRNG used a burn guard in the last weekly final or something. They caught a nice death of helseth with a 2k burn tick killing him. Don’t think he was running inspiration though.

I’d say conditions work very well at the moment against mesmers, inspiration will give the mesmer the upper hand again if they’ve gone for the cleanse on shatter, cleanse on heal combo. However menders purity is bugged with the last charge of the healing mantra and it has a 1s ICD to it.

Make sure you don’t let them free cast from the sides in team fights, cleave out any rogue phantasms or clones and bring the fight to them. Sick the thief on them if there’s one around, it’s not as easy a win as pre patch but it’s still in the thiefs favour and the constant harassment will prevent them helping their team.

Pretty sure the easier solution is just disable the trait and “forget” to reactivate it. Still won’t stop the QQ.

If you believe some thieves, they’d have you believe thief can’t perma stealth but mesmer can all on their own while firing lightening bolts from their backsides and death lazers from their eyes.

Would be nice to see Anet look at the torch trait to see if it’s bugged.

Roll back the 15% baseline…nty, my PvE mesmer was in much need of that. Besides it was rolled in as baseline because there were two 15% damage traits, one adept, one GM minor.

Roll it in with the trait if you honestly feel that iZerker doing 15% more damage is so OP.

Loxsus.3841:

EDIT – More seriously, yes, the blind should be able to be dodged/evaded.

Was about to say that lol.

Lettuce.2945:

I like how whenever someone suggests a nerf to blinding dissipation, most people ignore it and dance around it. Guess we can tell the real and honest mesmers from the fake ones who want to defend their class. Because top 3 things right now that need to be nerfed is easily blinding dissipation, PU, and mind wrack dmg.

Funny how when mesmers explain how to kill mesmers on other classes, explain how the burst works and everything they are ignored too.

Just as it’s funny how I still haven’t seen a single ESL weekly with more than 1 mesmer per team and only heard of a troll one from I think oRNG with 3. Just as it’s funny how the mesmers in said matches aren’t “wrecking everything” with their “broken” class.

I said off hand dagger has enough stealth uptime to be a pita not that they had perma stealth. SA minor gives 4s of stealth off CD, the GM gives 1 initiative back per 3s in stealth and you regen 1 every second. C&D costs 6. So every time you use it you stealth for 4s and at the end of those 4s you have 1 less initiative total.

After 48s you will start to run out of initiative however if you’re running infiltrators signet that will have given you back 4 over that, waiting an extra second (and hiding old school style) or using SR can maintain a high enough stealth uptime to be a pita to anyone trying to find you in a keep.

That’s without mentioning a D/P thief can sit in stealth permanently, I know, I did it yesterday, 100% stealth uptime. Trickery line is a good line for offence and SA is a good defence line, complaining someone would have to take them and it would be bad isn’t true. You can then take critical strikes or deadly arts for more attack.

Where as mesmers actually do have to devote their entire build to stealth or need to get other mesmers to cover the down time, you know this, you even commented on the perma stealth thread.

Regardless about your feelings on the SA line DeceiverX, using that line with SR and blinding powder with offhand pistol will give you 100% stealth uptime. Out of combat you can have 100% stealth uptime on 5 (1 of which is you) people and thieves have almost an entire monopoly on smoke fields with which to grant stealth.

That’s without mentioning the ability to cloak and dagger off buildings in WvW allowing even offhand dagger to keep enough stealth up time to be a pita.

Saying mesmers have higher stealth uptime than thieves doesn’t make it true. They would have to devote nearly all their trait lines (not all the traits in the line though) and a good chunk, if not all of their utility and elite slots for that.

Oh and AoE reveals are not for balancing PU, it’s for balancing stealth across the game which has caused so much of a pain to your main class.

tobascodagama.2961:

ASP.8093:

Tealots.6095:

When will it sink in that trait “levels” are irrelevant. If you pick a trait line, you’re all in.

This bears repeating.

Quite. The level of a trait matters only as a means of forcing choices between alternatives that, for balance reasons, need to be mutually-exclusive. Having PU, Chaotic Interruption, and Bountiful Disillusionment compete for the same slot is way more important than ensuring that any of them is “stronger” than, say, Master of Manipulation.

I mean, in general, it’s more intuitive for traits further to the right of the screen to be more powerful — or at least more build-defining — but it doesn’t need to be a hard rule.

Well, they did say they intended GMs to be “build defining” so I guess the GMs are the only ones that it matters about level. I think they’ve done some good jobs at that…some not so good but it’s wip.

Mak.2657:

I think you don’t even understand how huge is this nerf . MoD is using not only offensive but defensive too. E.g. to stop thief burst when stunned, prevent interrupt when casting skills like MI or Ether feast, prevent stomp while casting MI,etc.
Personally I’m ok with current state of mesmer. Ppl still handle mesmers in 1×1 duels.

I was meaning the daze goes from 1s to 1/4s so it interrupts but doesn’t give the long lasting daze. Cast time still instant so you can still use it while casting.

Choppy.4183:

Incorrect. Someone, you maybe, originally made the point that it didn’t provide a stealth benefit in PvP and so it shouldn’t be nerfed. My response then, and to you more recently, was that the proposition that PU stealth doesn’t matter in PvP pulls PvP out of consideration on whether or not the trait should be nerfed.

Every example I’ve given in support of a nerf has come from small to mid size Wvw, which is applicable in at least 3/4 of Wvw play.

You can arbitrarily say it doesn’t matter but the fact is most balance changes come from PvP. That is the primary mode they balance around so if something is not a problem there and constitutes a minor problem in WvW (where counters exist even if you don’t want to bother with them) then you can’t simply assume a nerf should happen and ask for reasons not to nerf it.

We also said that you can’t balance over WvW as it is designed to be imbalanced. There is massive stat inflation, there’s special items, traps and weapons there along with a completely different way of playing. It is also not like PvP in design of maps or persistence and scoring.

Which brings me back to the “sick of repeating it all” aspect.

As for your editing of posts, I saw one of your posts and it looked a lot different a minute later. I guess if posting from a phone that could explain it with predictive texting, especially if it’s Apple and their aggressive replacing of words.

Choppy.4183:

See my post history. It’s all there, and I even recapped the point and this phenomenon of defensiveness a few times in this very thread too.

I didn’t propose a specific change to mesmers except to the stealth buff on PU, and that was well in line with what you’re calling for now.

Things like nerfing the entire stealth mechanic was offered by mesmers while simultaneously portraying my proposed reduction to PU as completely uncalled for.

apharma has used a misguided PvP argument in rejection of a PU stealth nerd more than once, even though he seems fine with +2s now.

Taking a step back allowed me to see the same thing happening with others, so its clearly something beyond anything specific I’ve posted.

You started with the “misguided” arguement of agreeing it wasn’t of much benefit in PvP and so should be nerfed because…we need to provide a reason not to nerf it.

Do I need to quote you before you go back and edit it?

For the record I wasn’t meaning just you and I still maintain PU isn’t the problem, it’s the counter play to stealth. Unfortunately I’m also a realist and know people will not stop till it is nerfed despite logical arguements against a nerf.

Or

apharma.3741:

IF a change had to be made I would do the following.

#Power Block: Interrupts deal damage and inflict weakness. Enemy skills that you interrupt have an increased cooldown. Interrupt is skilful play, you should be rewarded for it and your patience. No change.

#Confounding Suggestions: Chance to inflict stun whenever you daze a target. Increased stun and daze duration. Others have said change it to a 10s ICD locally on the player affected, I kinda agree with that however a better idea to solve these is below…

#Power Lock (MoD): Daze foes for 1s, Number of Targets: 5, Radius: 180, Range: 1,200 Make it a 1/4s daze so it keeps it’s interrupt play but nerfs it’s CS interplay with bursting people down. The affected target will be barely stunned and more than capable of being able to dodge the burst if you lead with this.

#Prismatic Understanding: Increased stealth duration from mesmer skills. Gain random boons while you are in stealth. I feel the problem is mainly the torch trait in WvW and MI. A simple change to +2-3s instead of 100% would shave it down. Change might to something more appropriate like stab, vigor or resistance.

#The Pledge: Torch skills remove conditions. Torch skills recharge faster while you are in stealth. This promotes stealth camping which is not good imo. It’s not that good in PvP as you don’t want to camp stealth, and it’s very annoying in WvW and the source of most of the QQ even if you’re hitting like a wet lettuce by using dom, illusion dueling. Make it -1s CD per enemy hit with torch skills.

That should balance it out when combined with a damage reduction right across the board in PvP amulets.

Choppy.4183:

I’ve consistently observed a pattern here in which people who main mesmers identify specific things they think should be nerfed, but as soon as someone who doesn’t identify as maining a mesmer expresses a general complaint (e.g. mesmers are faceroll easy to play, mesmers are op at the moment) or proposes specific changes that may even be less than the changes proposed by mesmers, all the defensive nonsense kicks into high gear. Then, suddenly, mesmers are perfect as is and everyone needs to stop hating and l2p.

Or maybe we’re sick of listing all the ways to counter such builds to those people who choose not to listen. That and a lot of things go along the lines of “I don’t like it, nerf it” with little thought of the consequences and little to no adult reasoning. That’s without mentioning a lack of thought on what the actual issues are and the wider reaching problems a nerf would create.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/We-re-in-danger-Mesmer-nerf-discussion/first#post5281688

I made some suggestions which would sort out the current issues with mesmers while trying to minimise the impact on other builds and playstyles. I try to reign in the overperforming aspects while retaining the benefit for the more balanced aspects. I also give reasoning for it but I’m happy to rectify what I would do if someone points out a glaring problem.

Unfortunately people that have posted have asked for heavy handed things like “make daze a 1s cast” or “revert PU back to it’s useless state” and, my personal favourite, “delete stealth from the game”. Without thinking what it would do to this class, other skills and traits of this class, other classes and the interaction between classes.

A lot of fotm mesmers are running mantra of distraction which is the discharge sound you keep hearing. Blink and decoy for stunbreaks and Sw-t/GS.

They are weaker than a newborn kitten against conditions though. Condi warrior would eat them alive.

They will try to lead with power lock to stun you for 1.25s, have a stun break ready for that, dodge after as they follow up with mirror blade, don’t try to block as it’s unblockable and always has been, so dodge.

They will put clones out and use iZerker from stealth, just count to 4 while cleaving them all out, they’re very squishy and there’s no penalty for just mowing them down. This reduces how much damage they can do. Watch out for the interrupt after 4s but as long as you’re using auto attacks you won’t waste skills and likely won’t be punished much for it.

You can block the shatter burst with shield, watch for the clones moving when in attack range of you.

Most of these mesmers are running full zerk but don’t have the skill to run full zerk, 2-3 hits will destroy them or a random 10k reckless dodge =P

The constant stealth can be off putting but treat it like a thief but with murdering clones as a way to neuter their burst damage.

P.S. Not all mesmers are running the same builds. A zerg support mesmer should be an easy kill for you. Interrupt mesmer (of equal skill) should nearly always win due to warriors having highly telegraphed attacks after repeated nerfs.

I also forgot to say, mesmers have very weak auto attacks, they are about half what other classes are and most of their personal attacks are about half of other professions. Most of their damage comes from shatters and phantasms, don’t let clones and phantasms live and you’ll have a much easier fight.

I don’t agree with most of the changes. IF a change had to be made I would do the following, addressing yours first.

#Power Block: Interrupts deal damage and inflict weakness. Enemy skills that you interrupt have an increased cooldown. Interrupt is skilful play, you should be rewarded for it and your patience. No change.

#Confounding Suggestions: Chance to inflict stun whenever you daze a target. Increased stun and daze duration. Others have said change it to a 10s ICD locally on the player affected, I kinda agree with that however a better idea to solve these is below…

#Power Lock (MoD): Daze foes for 1s, Number of Targets: 5, Radius: 180, Range: 1,200 Make it a 1/4s daze so it keeps it’s interrupt play but nerfs it’s CS interplay with bursting people down. The affected target will be barely stunned and more than capable of being able to dodge the burst if you lead with this.

#Prismatic Understanding: Increased stealth duration from mesmer skills. Gain random boons while you are in stealth. I feel the problem is mainly the torch trait in WvW and MI. A simple change to +2-3s instead of 100% would shave it down. Change might to something more appropriate like stab, vigor or resistance.

#The Pledge: Torch skills remove conditions. Torch skills recharge faster while you are in stealth. This promotes stealth camping which is not good imo. It’s not that good in PvP as you don’t want to camp stealth, and it’s very annoying in WvW and the source of most of the QQ even if you’re hitting like a wet lettuce by using dom, illusion dueling. Make it -1s CD per enemy hit with torch skills.

That should balance it out when combined with a damage reduction right across the board in PvP amulets.

Is PU with decoy OP? I don’t think so.
Is PU with traited decoy OP? Not really, especially in PvP.
Is PU with decoy and torch OP? It’s a strong combo, no more than on other classes equivalent.
Is PU with traited decoy, traited torch and MI OP? This is where the majority of people have issues.
Is PU with veil OP?LOL no, no chance, not at all with the way veil works.

A lot of people just want it flat out nerfed but aren’t thinking about what components and combinations are too strong and what actually feels OK considering the GM investment.

For me the biggest outliers are MI but mainly PU when used with the torch trait. I’m not really happy with that trait as it does promote sitting in stealth instead of being aggressive with the torch.

Changing the torch trait to a reduction per burns you apply or per enemies hit by torch skills I feel would be a step forward. Then looking at the duration of PU and changing it to a static +2s would effectively sort out all the QQ. Perhaps change might to vigor, resistance or stab.

YuiRS.8129:

JaeleCt.3967:

Tao.1234:

x Charlie.4820:

Kagamiku.9731:

No counterplay to berserkers stance —-> Physical damage.

berserker’s stance is perfectly fine. Rampage is the problem.

I think the opposite, Rampage is actually somewhat useful now. It’s zerker stance that makes it unstoppable.

I’m not sure why everyone gets resistance but warrior is an exception to the rule.

Because after Adrenaline changes, Warrior has no viable Condition removal and Berserker Stance fills that gap which temporarily gives immunity to all conditions.

Comparing it other classes, Warrior is the most vulnerable to damage conditions.

hi! thieves condition removal would like a word.

Shadow’s Embrace and Ranger’s stolen thing are really good.

Shadow’s Embrace got nerfed hard. It’s only damaging conditions now and the second kinda needs a ranger to be present which speaks for itself.

I also heard in stealth procs now only work after 3s of stealth not as soon as you enter but haven’t tested it as I’m having fun on other classes atm before everything fun gets nerfed into the mediocrity mud.

I dunno, I’m really enjoying the game in the current state with all these really strong abilities. I barely play warrior and have only had chance to use it a few times in WvW, had it used on me a few times though. It’s extremely strong but fun to watch.

It’s fun, sucks if you get wrecked by it but this game is actually kinda fun after spending months in this mediocre mess of everything fun nerfed into the mud.

No thank you.

However, I would not be against offering classes a way to bring a foe out of stealth similar to an engineers lock on trait and soon to be dragon hunter trap. However not on short cool downs (>30s) and not large amounts (no more than 2 ways) of it or else you would destroy the thief class and stealth completely.

Then maybe we can stop nerfing thieves (and revert some of the nerfs) as there is a way to end them if they get sloppy instead of them popping an instant stealth and teleporting away with shortbow. Same applies to sloppy mesmers.

You’re an engineer and rerolling mesmer….wait what!?

Go rabid, balthazaar runes, firearms and IP with chemical rounds with P/P or P/S. Blowtorch will wreck mesmers. If they survive then use the other 3 damage conditions you have coming out of your ears.

Still, I know it’s kinda difficult knowing what to pick given the extensive reworking that engineers have but current mesmers outside of condi are really really weak against conditions.

Pre load with incendiary ammo if you see the fight coming while roaming. Toolkit I still find almost invaluable.

Watch out for the unblockable parts of a mesmers burst, mirror blade (dodge that) the rest you can block and given your AoE (grenade or bomb kit) you should be able to keep condition on them. Use the trait lock on if you really wanna annoy them.

I think people are running away with the idea I had too much. I’m not saying make everything in the game apply AoE reveal. I’m saying there should be a way to have it if you go for it.

So for ranger F2 application add it to a trait so you have to pick it to do it. Make it a choice but add it to current functions so it’s not like sick em which almost no-one uses.

In such an environment thief wouldn’t have nor needed to have been nerfed so hard DecieverX. That is why thief has been nerfed and nerfed over and over again. It’s not hard to see, no pun intended, that thieves keep getting hate and nerfed because of stealth. Now Mesmer has it and the same thing is happening.

Yes you can have some of those heavy handed over nerfs in the last patch changed, I feel some of it was a bit too much. You can still permanent stealth as a thief or at least match a mesmer with similar investment if not less.

So please, stop twisting my words and running off with them. I’m not saying it because of PU, I’m saying it because thief keeps getting punished for Anets idiocy regarding stealth which I love using on both Mesmer and thief.

Edit: Just went in game and tested my thief out, you can not only stay in stealth permanently with choosing the SA line but you can keep yourself and 4 others in stealth the whole time out of combat. In combat you’re more than capable of camping stealth with only SR and blinding powder with D/P.

Before you say, no I didn’t choose reduced cool down on deception skills, I used shadows embrace as I don’t like to be misleading. If you say you wouldn’t use them to just sit in stealth, well guess what? No decent Mesmer would do that with MI, torch, decoy and veil either, now would they use veil either.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

FYI, I’ve always said the same about thieves sthealth. Always. Some here operate under the very false assumption that ppl who now vent on mesmers never did vs thieves. You couldn’t be more wrong.

That ‘but it always existed with thieves’ rethoric to try and avoid the issue is ridiculous and fallacious.

I’m glad to read some mesmers that are able to acknowledge the problem tho.

I already said it to you in the PU thread I believe but I’ll say it again. The problem is Anet added stealth but forgot the crucial thing that makes it balanced in other games. A way to force someone out of stealth.

Make ranger F2 apply reveal to enemies in 600 range.
Trait shouts to do AoE reveal for warriors (or just add it to fear me)
Allow necros to “see” stealthed players while in DS with the closer to death trait.

Many things can be done, they just aren’t atm.

Er I’d actually still say roll a thief, you shouldn’t die to anything but you’re own bloodthirstiness. Possibly a condi engineer.

Either way if you can’t burst it as thief you would have a harder time as mesmer.

What class do you usually play and instead of homogenizing with the fotm, we can give advise and you can become the counter and wreck em for weeks or months for lots of bags.

P.S. It’s even stickied at the top of the forum -.-
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Guide-WvWvW-Pve-Shatter-Cat-2014-04-23

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

apharma.3741:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Um. You realise you need to take camps right? Just fighting is not really the point. You are a fly on the wall to the score. The easiest way to real with PU it just to ignore it. Also I doubt you won all fights.

Also stealth disruptor traps. Should really see them coming into play over the next week.

I’ve fought a lot of mesmers in zergs, they’re terrible, they’re one trick ponies that rely on stealthing and running away as soon as you focus them. This gets them out of the fight and lets you then focus on the heavies, when they die it’s easy to clear up the mesmers.

Well, that’s if they survive, the ones on my current match up take 2s to even react to the iZerker whirling at them, by that time it’s too late as they run full zerk and go pop.

Honestly, if you need to buy stuff like stealth disruptor traps to even have a chance you know something has to be wrong.

So like the last 2+ years with thieves right?

My favourite are those P/D thieves that can solo the lord in dire gear and you have to spend 15mins trying to hunt down without stealth disruptor.

dday.9532:

Pulsing resistance should be the last thing they do, because then it really has no counter play. Removing the boon would nothing because it would just reapply.

Let’s not forget that changing it to resistance would be a buff of sorts because it would make all current conditions inactive ( which it currently does not )

So either give it a buff and add counter play, or leave it as is, but do not suggest the extreme op idea of pulsing resistance… we have enough condition removal through shouts, brawlers recovery, cleansing ire, and quick breathing

And I am a warrior main btw

Yes, pulsing resistance has no counter play just like…oh wait the current way it works which offers 0 counter play and less than making it resistance. Making it a reasonable length boon pulse, 3-4s, means removing it is punishing but at the same time you can’t completely counter it with a single boon rip/convert.

I guess you also missed the reduced cool down part too.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Um. You realise you need to take camps right? Just fighting is not really the point. You are a fly on the wall to the score. The easiest way to real with PU it just to ignore it. Also I doubt you won all fights.

Also stealth disruptor traps. Should really see them coming into play over the next week.

I’ve fought a lot of mesmers in zergs, they’re terrible, they’re one trick ponies that rely on stealthing and running away as soon as you focus them. This gets them out of the fight and lets you then focus on the heavies, when they die it’s easy to clear up the mesmers.

Well, that’s if they survive, the ones on my current match up take 2s to even react to the iZerker whirling at them, by that time it’s too late as they run full zerk and go pop.

Reverence.6915:

So here’s the thing

Both your servers have people on them.

Both your servers have 1 major problem, which is that neither of your servers have someone or some people to step up and lead to change the server culture away from that of casual random non-comms karma training or roaming into a group focused PPT focused server.

I spend quite a lot of time down in T5-T8 NA servers on my alt account and they all have 1 thing in common: There’s no one spamming teamspeak details in map chat. In fact, when I ask for teamspeak details, I often get confronted, cussed out and get called a spy. That to me is hilarious cause you guys are ranked way at the bottom with nothing to lose each week to even need to care about spies

Also, UW is Underworld. Ranked dead last in EU due to some… drama that happened several months back. Nasty situation that split the server and caused a lot of people to transfer off.

It’s all well and good saying it but I know people who have done just that, all day, for months. Sure it did help build up the server but it was at the cost of them becoming so fed up with the game they needed to leave. There was a whole guild on WSR with 3 or 4 people commanding most of the time, it just takes it out of you trying to build up from so little.

There’s also a general lack of people to support you, mainly because they left all these servers a very long time ago. Even new people are hard to get, remember we don’t all have the deep golden lined pockets of kitten buy guilds. That’s without mentioning that if a guild came down they’d just be karma training against servers for months till they go up only to lose to night capping and not have a great deal of fights.

Still, I am interested in seeing you reverse the fortunes of a T8/9 server without massive investment in alt accounts from T1.

P.S. I really feel for you guys in UW and especially ZERK, you’ve stood by UW so long, you deserve a medal.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

you want to make it into resistance sure?

8 seconds base duration
4 pulses
2 seconds interval per pulse
6 adrenaline per pulse
2 seconds of resistance per pulse
40 seconds recharge

then we’re good.

other wise.
deal with it.

berserker stance has been working as intended since its introduction.

I could actually get behind something like that. Though I’m mostly against short duration pulsing. So I’d personally prefer:

9 seconds base duration
3 pulses
3 seconds interval per pulse
10 adrenaline per pulse
3 seconds of resistance per pulse
45 seconds recharge

Still, yeah I can get behind a reduced CD/higher uptime if it gets made into resistance and in some cases it would actually offer more use to warriors as they won’t take damage from condis till they can get to a place to cleanse.

Actually there is a trait in inspiration for distortion on phantasm summon and protection when you activate the shatter, it’s very helpful in WvW. Though protection does very little after a certain point.

Making the 15% baseline actually folded into the trait was just to shut up those people complaining about it tbh as losing that in PvE is a huge loss and most people I see complaining want it removed altogether.

People complain about PU but they keep complaining about permastealth mesmers. The 2 biggest offenders in that are the torch trait and MI, the rest just don’t have the duration or recharge to maintain it. Even then to stay perma stealthed needing 2 utility slots, an elite, 1 offhand weapon, 2 adept major, 1 minor master and 1 grandmaster trait sounds like a pretty hefty price.

I could get behind resistance instead of might and making it +2s stealth for PU, problem to me is people are out for blood on PU because of it’s history. Generally people aren’t wanting balance, they just want mesmers to go back to pre patch where they were easier to kill without having to think more than ctrl T, which is really sad considering you can mow down clones with no repercussion now.

That’s without even mentioning the reasons people keep bringing up and not looking at other classes and how much more powerful their defensive measures and GMs are.

Oh and I wasn’t meaning you or anyone on this page.

Sticker makes some good points and certainly it’s worth considering. The problem is, as demonstrated by another person in the thread earlier, people aren’t looking at it and thinking how it could be tweaked to be less effective without destroying the builds or diversity.

People are wanting the 15% baseline buff to phantasms removed yet they don’t think, maybe remove it baseline and add it to the trait so you have to choose to do more phantasm damage. I know PvE mesmers needed that buff.

They’re saying shatter damage does too much damage but very little about it actually changed except IP made baseline and arguably the original shatter trait was stronger as it was 20% regardless. They want it nerfed without thinking, maybe shift the damage onto traits so you have to pick shatter traits to have a strong shatter.

People hate PU but the majority of concerns I keep seeing is with MI and the torch trait. Instead of working out a compromise they just want it back where it was which was a rather lacklustre defensive trait after the boon watering down.

CS maybe a target ICD but that’s not the problem, the problem I see is we have mesmers running mantra, blink, portal for on demand dazes. I’ve heard many things like make dazes have increased cast time which would destroy interrupt play entirely. An ICD per target sounds OK but given the mesmers are running no condi cleanse…why are people not packing a condi user in the team? Perhaps certain conditions like bleed were over nerfed, I know necros feel this is the case being mainly bleed appliers.

However, I still stand by my statement of Anet needs a better handle on direct damage (all are doing insane damage now from even silly things like reckless dodge) and conditions before they tweak bursts and traits.

Choppy.4183:

I’ve never played a Rapid Fire ranger, but they’re usually pretty boned if you can close the distance and there are lots of tools to do that. Sometimes you can’t close and they get a cheap win, but it’s pretty limited. It’s because of Rapid Fire that rangers tend to get trained first in a fight too, so it’s a bit of a mixed blessing for them.

You read but didn’t think or just completely missed the point. When rapid fire was buffed a lot of people screamed for nerfs, said it effectively gave too much reward to rangers (burst from safe range) especially in WvW and there was a lot of it. That’s mostly calmed down now because people have learnt to fight it and changed builds accordingly.

Choppy.4183:

1. If it doesn’t convey a benefit to pvp, it means pvp provides absolutely no reason to keep the long stealth. We know that ANet does pay attention to other game modes and makes changes in response to what goes on there. So we have a situation where a buff is way too strong in one part of the game, and it can be safely fixed without affecting the other parts.

You’re still not seeing it and I’m getting sick of trying to explain it without sock puppets.

IF a skill or trait in PvP is not conveying much of an advantage, it is not conducive to getting points faster and by your own admittance has much better options elsewhere then you don’t need to change/nerf it. Changing something that was buffed in the patch back to pre patch when it meets these conditions is just silly.

Choppy.4183:

1. Needing to be a skilled mesmer in order to be a threat. I mean, all classes need time investment to be a threat to skilled players. That I can be a major threat to skilled non-mesmers when I’m mesmer trash is absolutely not consistent with how it is for other classes, imo.

Again, that could be because people just aren’t used to dealing with mesmer burst because there just weren’t that many around pre patch. Which brings us back to rapid fire syndrome, I’ve already heard of other classes adapting, changing and saying they’re beating mesmers now. The thing is, it will take time as we’ve all had traits completely messed up all across the classes.

This is why I want nerfs or “reversions”, as you like to disguise the name, left for a while before Anet can get a handle on the wider issues.

Menaka.5092:

This build is what I’m currently running with my guild

It’s pretty much what I was running before the patch, with the added bonuses from the Spec revamp.

The build has nice damage spike (Chaos Storm and iZerker+MoP and MindStab+MoP) and an amazing amount of support:

• AoE condi removal
• AoE healing
• AoE invuln on F4
• Timewarp (traited)
• Chaos Storm on the spike

Some notes:

• I usually save Timewarp for a defensive spike since Slow on the enemies and Resistance help with survival, but it’s situational
• Veil with PU is great for engages
• Furious Interruption and Power Block are great for spiking down single targets.
• You could go for Shattered Concentration instead to help cleanse out boons on the enemy

The build is punished by the nerf to the staff trait, since you usually won’t get to leap in your Chaos Storm (you drop it on the melee spike and you usually don’t want to be in there), so the cooldown will only be reduced by 10%, and that’s only if you get to pop your Chaos Armor for defense, but that trait is still the best one in Chaos Master tier.

ha ha, I was running the same thing after the patch. It’s very good for supporting even pug zergs. Hope they fix the MoR bug with menders purity.

To the OP, just be aware the slow is not chill, they can run out of slow very quickly. However I really would recommend this build (add knights rings/trinkets if you need a bit more survival) for WvW.

Ele meteor shower.
Mesmer mass invis.
Guardian elite signet (lol that 3 century channel)
Ranger rapid fire.
Thief auto…oh wait you can’t put that on a 15s cooldown, sad times.

Choppy.4183:

They could use a tweak or two, yeah. I’m currently lobbying to have the stealth buff on PU reverted to what it was, but they’re overall more deadly without it (most quality mesmers don’t run it in favour of more burst).

You’re asking for the stealth duration to be reduced by anywhere between 50% and 80% in all cases. This is after agreeing it actually offers no advantage over the mode Anet balances over and you agreed other trait lines are better in another thread I believe.

Anyway the point really was that if you think something is too strong you need to make an argument for it to be reduced and what to, not say it needs to be reduced then ask for arguments as to why it shouldn’t.

Ever thought the reason people are winning on mesmers is partially down to a lot of people not fighting mesmers that stood a chance unless you invested hundreds of hours into it? I know I was effective as a thief after not even an hour after playing it in WvW, same deal, people generally can’t deal with them.

Same with rapid fire rangers, thankfully people have adjusted and Anet didn’t listen to the nerf calls.

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/b/676641435 check out from 1hr 54mins on. You have oRNG vs TCG, no mesmer on oRNG and you can see how close all these games are. The real game changing moves from the mesmer was the portal plays same as usual, the only thing that’s really changed for Helseth is he doesn’t seem to die in the blink of an eye to thieves any more but he still gets trained down hard in fights.

Watch the way the mesmer is player and the way others play and you’ll see mesmer is far from wrecking everything it sees.

Thing is, you admitted that it was not an issue, not overpowered and then asked for it to be changed anyway asking for reasons it shouldn’t. THAT is what I am saying is the reasoning of a child.

As for Anet and the decisions they make. They make changes because they think it should be done or it’s the way they want something to function, example is ranger longbow and the 1500 range with double arrow speed as baseline.

I am not saying they get it perfect first time but I am saying it’s usually in the region they want, especially when it is a pronounced change. That is where my “That’s what Anet wants” isn’t falling apart like you are fond of misconstruing.

Choppy.4183:

Maybe you can explain this argument. If the reason PU isn’t good in pvp is that long stealths aren’t advantageous, and so it’s not worth taking the Chaos line over other lines to get PU on most builds, then how does pvp factor into any decision about whether or not to reduce the stealth bonus from PU?

In wvw, how does the fact that thieves have abusable stealth support the notion that mesmers should have it too?

You have your arguments the wrong way around. Mesmer is as it is now because Anet wants it so. You should provide reasons for the nerf not just “because I say so” or “I want it” as in their eyes it is right exactly as is. You need to make a case for a change, not propose a change and ask for cases to not change it, that’s the logic of a child and I assume you aren’t a child.

So if it’s not an issue in PvP where stealth won’t get you the points and indeed just allows the opponent to gain an advantage and that is the mode they primarily balance around, then what is the reason to nerf it?

Likewise in WvW if it’s not affording any more of an advantage than what is already there on other classes, especially when there is a counter specific to that game mode, why does it needed to change?

This applies to all things not just PU.

Right now the main issues are damage across all classes not just mesmer and the amount of stuns mesmer is using at relatively little cost. Having said that, the stun lock mesmer is horrifyingly weak to condi, I mean, weaker than a PvE zerk ele going all damage. Yet we’re not seeing people use it. Let the meta settle.

Laraley.7695:

I understand your point, but don’t you think that it would be much better if they lowered the damage, but actually fixed the attacks of the phantasm? Also, it’s not like it’s hard for mesmers to apply vunerability and other conditions, which is also quite passive, too. There are so many traits that give mesmers contition access without them doing anything differently, it would be rather surprising if your target didn’t have some conditions on him.

By my count I can usually get between 3 and 5 conditions on someone at any one time, mostly vuln, bleed and confusion with the odd burn if in staff and a few others if chaos armour so balancing around that being the norm I wouldn’t be against.

I’d be all for a toning down of the damage if the phantasm could actually hit something that was doing more than picking its nose. Perhaps reduce the base damage but increase the boost per condition to 15% so people will have to really work for the boost but in most cases will be end up with less damage per hit but more hits. It would also help condition builds have a phantasm more aligned to the weapon.

Still, before nerfs and changes happen I hope Anet gets a handle on the damage from all sources first. I don’t want things nerfed then when or if damage is toned down they become not just a non issue but need a buff again, it’s just counter intuitive.

iduelist is your friend for anything you might need range for, just auto with sword after that, blurred frenzy when you need to dodge. It’s not hard if you pay attention to enemy attack patterns and animations.

Also time warp is hilariously strong on bosses if you have a high dps party, trait for +2s and they’re lucky if they get 2 attacks off during the time warp and you can unleash everything on it. Only bosses that isn’t that good on are archdiviner and maybe fire shaman but then chill destroys him.

Just realised that there’s a lot of forum posts appearing in this forum for a couple of minutes to an hour and then disappearing like pink butterflies after a shatter.

Is the mesmer hate really that strong?

Warlord of Chaos.7845:

It’s simple. People like that they can faceroll on their FOTM class and don’t want it to be nerfed. I only want very specific nerfs so that ANet can nerf the things that really need a nerf, and I think every nerf I said was pretty reasonable.

I never thought I’d agree with you after your outburst in the PU thread but I think you’re on the right track with:

" I would say nerf PU to 33 or 50% stalth duration, nerf Confounding Suggestions to a 10 sec icd per target, nerf the free phant damage, and then nerf ammy stats. Mesmer and a lot of other classes damage should be better with these changes."

I’d make PU +2s instead as it brings MI down further but gives veil more function.
CS agreed or on interrupt, not too bothered.
Phantasm damage I’d just fold it into the trait so it’s 30% and you have to choose it (remember it is both old traits in one) but yeah base buff not needed to be base entirely.
Ammy speaks for itself, agreed.

I guess I’m the only one that though “**** yes, Anet finally decided to have some fun with WvW”

Guys, chill, it’s one week of lets have a bit of fun all running around with golems pretending to be transformers, Jaeger’s etc.

I hope they do more events for WvW to brighten up what is now a very dusty and monotonous game mode after nearly 3 years.

Oh I also forgot to mention for those making frowny faces and getting in a huff there’s the beta weekend and revenants for you to check out, you know, assuming you’re not pretending you’re are not going to buy the expansion.

Sort of but generally I don’t often see a mantra buff of more than 2-3 stacks which is a 12% mesmer damage buff. The duration of it though is quite small, coupled with the way damage is shifted between phantasms and the mesmer it makes it hard to rely judge. I dunno how it interplays with shatters but like you say, it competes with DE which certainly makes it competitive to say the least.

I feel I need to put something on topic now.

Mesmer beat me with girly pink flutterbys, I’m manly man who shouldn’t be beaten by such panzies RAWR!

Time to head back from the chasm of Sar.

Pride.1734:

Yea yea IP… and additional bounces was made baseline and manipulation range increase was made baseline and illusions +15% dmg was made baseline and shatter reductions baseline. Those might have slipped your mind
+ some stronger multipliers with the edited traits.

I love to play my mesmer in all three gametypes, especially in roaming and and im not suggesting that they should remove the IP baseline, it is a good change, but seriously the numbers need some tweaking. With full ascended zerk on my mesmer i even one shot unprepared heavy armor targets easily.

And my power necro in WvW can 1 shot all zerkers except warrior even when I get caught with my pants down. My ele has been responsible for whole party wipes in zergs and roaming can swing losing fights extremely well.

Lets also not forget the reasons for things being made baseline. In all classes things were made baseline because of a few reasons, the most prominent 2 were:
1. Classes felt they needed to take that trait to actually use X
2. There were just too many traits that affected a singular aspect.

The unfortunate reality is mesmer had a lot falling into these categories, IP and IE being the most common. Recharge on glamours mainly because half of them are over 60s! Range on manipulations because once again, so many people took it as it felt needed to function.

A case can be made about the phantasm damage being 15% baseline and 15% from traits should have been weighted more to the trait. However anyone who plays mesmer can tell you exactly how long phantasms last and a lot of the time they don’t compare to the damage of equivalent skills on other classes.

Needless to say, many classes got baseline changes too some, one can argue, were already extremely strong and didn’t need the increase in power. Needless to say it fit into the categories above and so got made baseline.

Additionally you skipped over the changes:
Mental Anguish is a nerf if you don’t fulfil the “not using skills” part.
Wastrels was changed and is a buff in PvE but mostly a nerf in PvP.
Compounding power stayed the same.
Any modifiers you think were buffed or added that affect PvP? I certainly don’t think we can chuck phantasmal haste or harmonious mantras in there as I don’t see many running it for the pitiful damage buff. Fencers finesse is once again a very PvE focused trait, you’ll only get that ~7% ferocity bonus from blurred frenzy on 2 targets in PvP mostly and only for a few seconds.

Looks nice. I sometimes use mirror, sometimes I use mantra of resolve for that extra cleansing and AoE heal if I trait for healing mantras.

Here’s another thread, it’s 3 months old but it does show a methodology about how to build for zergs/group combat and support.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/A-tale-of-testing-WvW-builds/

ASP.8093:

I hate the current PU in WvW.

I’ll tell you why I hate it.

Because people ask you to run it.

Mesmer’s at kind of a high point for interesting options you can exercise in play. But, noooo, they want you to:
1. Take the two most boring trait lines, just for PU and the torch recharge.
2. Flip your utilities into nothing but stealth right when it looks like there’s going to be a tough fight.
3. Spend half your time hiding in keeps doing a rotation instead of fighting.

I want mesmer “perma-stealth” to go away because maybe then folks will stop looking at sneaky-capping with portals as easy mode and insisting it’s the best use of a mesmer.

There are far, far better things than obscene stealth duration that can be done with PU.

I definitely agree with that last part.

Here’s a post by someone who was testing different builds in WvW for his guild group.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/A-tale-of-testing-WvW-builds/

Pre patch I know, but it shows what can be done with mesmer besides being a veil/portal bot. He does use them when needed but he also provides heals, support and I can see a recreation of this build being incredibly supporting while able to pick out stragglers for a kill.

Roaming or Zerging?

If you’re shattering, I’d pick mental anguish but the GS trait isn’t bad.

Pick up protected phantasms and they will guarantee to finish their attack most of the time or in iWardens case get most of it off. Imo it is better than the focus trait in WvW in zergs. Restorative illusions looks good for smaller scale too.

Fencers finesse is more of a PvE trait imo, I would certainly say for surviving evasive mirror will help against ranged attackers so you can then ditch feedback for portal. Alternatively the blind on shatter is another really good trait.

It’s a good base, a few tweaks and it looks like a good build. The inspiration line has A LOT to offer for support and healing.

Interrupt builds can also be very fun in small scale and picking off people in zergs. I’ll leave advise on that to people who know it better than me though.