Guild Wars 2

It doesn’t change the fact that you can’t just spam 5+1 due to the revealed debuff, so there will always be a few seconds where you have to stay alive without stealth after a sneak attack. Shadow-strike is potentially useful in those windows, either for added dps or defense. The fact that it achieves either/both is great.

I tend to run builds that have a bit of initiative to spare, so i can use both CnD and shadow-step fairly frequently (I vary it a bit, but usually 0/0/30/20/20).

If you play a build with no initiative regen that makes you always hungry for initiative, and needing to save it all for CnD, that’s your choice. I’m sure it can work well, but I’m sure it’s also less forgiving (which is fine, I know my limits, so I like builds with some cushion for error). If that build requires a precise CnD and then a well timed sneak attack, well there’s some skill in that, but I’m sure it also gets boring, as you say. That doesn’t mean that P/D can’t be made more interesting – with say a few points in acrobatics. It’s not really worth debating whether one build is better/worse than another – taking points in deadly arts has obvious advantages, as do trickery and shadow arts, so it’s hard to strike a balance with P/D.

Still, initiative regen from acrobatics works well with P/D, and when you’ve got initiative to spare, you no longer have to worry about whether you need to save that initiative for a CnD…so you use them both. Then instead of debating shadow-strike vs CnD (because you can only ever use one skill), you wind up debating the merits of extra dodges/swiftness/caltrops/speed while stealthed/shadow-strikes(due to more initiative), vs mug/poison/weakness/daze on steal, etc.

So speaking of traits – I’m sure someone could make a D/P build that’s like 30/30/0/0/10. And I’m sure it could hit like a truck. But it would also have initiative problems, making there only be room on that build for stealthing. So that person could then come on here and complain that headshot is underpowered, because you have to choose between stealth and interrupts. All I’m pointing out is that it’s a false choice. You don’t have to choose if you build for both…

Natsu – just watched the video, I like how you just stood behind that post for a while…all classy and casual. I also like the attack moa at the end. Can moas stomp?

As Osicat mentioned, the new condition tank builds are solid vs necros. Necros have good condition cleanses, but mesmers can reapply lots of conditions very quickly with the right build. So it’s easy to put on pressure and break stuns / stealth / clear conditions with a traited torch.

Hexxen.7216:

Only thing I can see Mesmer as being weak at is running with a zerg which I don’t do anyway. Everything else I think they did take us down a few notches but I am doing fine with. Even though I did have to rework pretty much every build I was using

Nope, not at all…mesmers are very useful in a zerg, and can make the difference between victory and defeat. Organized groups require at least a few mesmers as they provide crucial and irreplaceable utility. One well placed null-field, veil or portal is all it takes to be useful to a group.

Unfortunately mesmers are usually not great at getting lootbags in Zerg battles (all those skills that make us so useful give 0 lootbags)…but with the right build, you can be very survivable, do solid aoe damage, and provide good group utility.

I think mesmers more than other classes are solid in all settings (maybe on par with eles and guardians). As others pointed out, they do well in PvP at all levels (not just high level play). They also do well in WvW in solo roaming, as well as in zerg vs zerg battles. They are also a staple of PvE – you will never have a hard time finding a CoF group as a mesmer (though you may get kicked if you’re not “pro” enough). I don’t really feel overpowered in any setting…just solid, in a decent place. Certain builds could probably use a few minor buffs or tweaks, but I really don’t see it as anything to complain about.

As others mentioned, none of this is true before level 40…so if you’re under lvl 40, look up lvling builds and keep on trucking!

takatsu.9416:

bobross.5034:

that is a fair comparison…though I think Mass Invis affects 10 people, not 5 and it does give more stealth, and without a clear tell for the enemy (giant line in the ground). It’s also an elite, so cooldowns also have to be balanced with things like Lyssa and Mad King runes in mind.

oh wait, you can see the veil line from enemy? I remember so many times when the enemy zerg just disappeared cuz they were using a veil tactic. I don’t remember seeing the line, but maybe it was just misperception in the heat of the fight :P But nevertheless, the veil changes the tide of wvw group fights so much… running with a zerg busting group, makes mesmer feel like a god hahaha, portal and veil tactics are amazing

Hmm, i can’t consider the runes to be part of the comparison, because not everyone/not a lot of ppl will use them, limiting usage of other runes for their builds. the skill alone, when compared to a veil tactic in wvw, MI, i practically only use it for roaming/solo purposes

not sure then…I don’t know if enemies see the line. Anyhow I agree that veil is more useful in zerg fights. On the other hand, you could argue that MI is more useful/less limited when scattered and retreating, as well as in small group battles.

takatsu.9416:

I also think it is kind of annoying / disappointing, but it makes sense. We aren’t supposed to compare mesmer and thieves, bc thieves are the real stealth class. Mesmers are utility and trickery based, and MI is simply just a supplementary trick for us. and tricks don’t need to last so long kind of deal?

What bugs me though is comparing veil and MI, they both have same CD, veil affects unlimited? allies as long as they run through it, duration is shorter, and MI only affects up to 5 players? and duration is longer. BUT the issue is it is an Elite Skill that needs 30 points… and yeah… it is an elite skill… Basically Veil and MI for its worth are the same (since they have their disadvantages/advantages). So it doesn’t make sense. Elite skill should be far better and worth it right??

imo, even if it is a small tweak like, MI not needing a cast time, being an instant cast skill will greatly validate the skill

In any case i run a stealth heavy build and I do love all my three stealths (excluding torch). All of them in my fights are very useful and if getting away they are way enough + blink

but yeah just doesn’t make a lot of sense

that is a fair comparison…though I think Mass Invis affects 10 people, not 5 and it does give more stealth, and without a clear tell for the enemy (giant line in the ground). It’s also an elite, so cooldowns also have to be balanced with things like Lyssa and Mad King runes in mind.

If thieves had a stealth elite, it would have to be way better than mass invisibility. That’s because you have to put everything into context. Thieves are designed to be the masters of stealth, so their stealth skills should be solid. A thief stealth elite would therefore have to be amazing. On the other hand thieves are not really a pet class, and so their elite thieve’s guild is way worse than phantasms in a phantasm build or ranger pets. They have ok survivability and utility, but there’s only two of them, their damage is mediocre and what’s with the cooldown? Well it’s because the elite is adding something to the class that it doesn’t otherwise have access to, and so even if it’s mediocre…on a thief it becomes a solid elite choice.

Mass Invis has the same-ish principle. It is giving mesmers access to invisibility – which is sort of in their wheelhouse, but not intended to be a focus for mesmers. Indeed, you may notice, if you play a stealth mesmer build and a thief build, that mesmers benefit a LOT more from stealth than thieves do. For example, if a mesmer could spam cloak and dagger, it would be ridiculously overpowered. Mesmers do so much better because thieves are balanced with cheap access to stealth in mind. Mesmers – on the other hand have limited access to stealth that is balanced with mesmer skills and DPS in mind. That’s why mesmers will never and should never have access to stealth that is comparable to thieves. And it’s why it really doesn’t make sense to compare a mesmer elite to a thief utility.

By itself mass invisibility is worse in maybe 90% of situations than shadow refuge…It’s also worse than cloak and dagger! But all of that does not matter, because it’s not a thief skill, it’s a mesmer skill, and on a mesmer, it’s great.

I’m going to agree with Chaos here – with those builds (or that general style) you can give some very good group support and decent (not amazing) dps, while also being very tanky (with the right gear – like clerics or soldiers). You can also do some very tanky condition builds, but these are a bit trickier in PvE (issues with conditions stacking).

The optimal dungeon PvE builds are all glassy (for every class) – the reason is people can avoid major damage, so why would they waste stat points on survivability? This doesn’t make other builds non-playable, But obnoxious close-minded players might kick you from their CoF group. If you see that they want you to ping your gear…just run the other way. In high level FOTM you’ll probably want a bit more survivability, so those kinds of builds should serve you well…then again, you’ll still want to avoid getting hit too much.

Bud.5617:

bobross.5034:

One other thing to know about mesmers – they have a harder time of hurting a stealthed thief than other classes. Usually there are maybe 1-2 skills on the bar with long cooldowns that can actually hit / maybe cc a stealthed thief. As mesmer, I can fight thieves fine, but if they want to get away, I just let them. As a thief, it’s important to remember that…mesmer is one of those classes that it’s easy to stalemate, but you should only be dying to them if you over-commit or make a mistake. Likewise, mesmers can be very slippery…so stalemates are easy outcomes. Just get used to that, other classes have to get used to that with thieves, after-all.

There’re a few problems with that in sPvP

1) If I’m stealthed, I’m not winning points.
2) If I run away I’m not winning anything either.

I can cap some other point, but I’d have wasted time in the mean time. I don’t know at least an engineer isn’t very mobile, and their turrets while annoying rarely hurt.

Absolutely – which is the problem with thieves as a whole in PvP (except S/D evasion builds – which are hard to play well).

wow…thats kind of awesome.

One other thing to know about mesmers – they have a harder time of hurting a stealthed thief than other classes. Usually there are maybe 1-2 skills on the bar with long cooldowns that can actually hit / maybe cc a stealthed thief. As mesmer, I can fight thieves fine, but if they want to get away, I just let them. As a thief, it’s important to remember that…mesmer is one of those classes that it’s easy to stalemate, but you should only be dying to them if you over-commit or make a mistake. Likewise, mesmers can be very slippery…so stalemates are easy outcomes. Just get used to that, other classes have to get used to that with thieves, after-all.

Travlane.5948:

well the thing here is that anet thinks if they make ALL the skills as strong as CND or HS then we will be OP. but the fact is they should all be strong to their respective use. we have initiative so it doesnt matter if we go 2 2 2 or 3 3 3 . as long as the init matches the skill then they should ALL be good skills. but some ignorants look at it as wow every wepaonset has 5 strong skills. if u put 5 strong skills on any other class it will be op. but not thief. bc we spam the best skill anyway. u know what i mean? so by makign them all equally awesome wont hurt the game.

The ideal balance for thief is not that any skill can be spammed any time – that’s boring. Ideally every skill is potentially very useful in the right situation (spammed or not), and less useful in others. So when asking if a given skill is worthwhile, the questions need to be:
1 – “Is there a situation(s) where this is the best skill to use?”
2 – “Is that situation relatively common?”

I think the developer goal for every weapon set should be that you can say yes to both questions for all of the skills in the set. Right now I’d say that’s probably the case for d/p and s/d.

In the case of shadow-strike, it is superior to CnD for both offense and defense in a few scenarios.
1 – You are revealed and have initiative to spare – so a little extra dps and a cover condition are useful. – maybe you’ve got a gap-closer up too in case the enemy is about to run.
2 – You are fighting a meleer, who knows how to handle stealth, so your CnD is not protecting you the way you want/need it to.
3 – you are running, and need distance more than you need stealth.
4 – you are in an aoe circle and out of dodges.
5 – you just got immobilized

1 stack of torment is like 1.5 bleed stacks. So 2 stacks is the damage equivalent of 3 bleed stacks. Autoattacks also apply bleeds, so shadow-strike + autoattack + dodge is also a viable strategy, if you can stay alive while doing it. CnD – wait – sneak attack applies 5 stacks very quickly, but during that time you could be applying 5 stacks of bleed slowly as well. Additionally 5-1 leaves you with 3 seconds of revealed…what are you doing during that time? Well you could be shadow-striking and then autoattackign for more dps…that’s why shadow-strike is nice.

It’s not overpowered by any means, it’s actually nicely balanced with the rest of the set.
If you have a build that gives good initiative generation, then 5-1-3 is a good combo.

If you want to just write it off without even trying it, that’s fine. Enjoy your backstabs. I’m enjoying p/d and finding the play-style and mobility varied and interesting.

One other thing about phantasms – the phantasms actually have longish cast times (1-2 seconds). So if you can interrupt those casts, you can hose their damage quickly. The thing that makes phantasm mesmers seem overpowered is that often, once they have 2-3 phantasms out, they can focus exclusively on defense, and still do amazing damage. If you can prevent/delay that, the mesmer is in a bad place. Things like stealth and distortion make it hard/impossible to prevent that from a skilled player, though…

That’s why you feel like they’re not putting much effort in. The first 5 seconds of the fight are the most crucial for them…after that, they just need to stay alive.

I play thief and mesmer, and like battling each with the other (does that make sense?). You have a few things wrong here, so I’ll explain them:

1 – clones (the exact copies) can apply conditions on death, if the mesmer has the right traits. Phantasms can’t.
2 – mesmers have access to 4 shatters including a daze (probably what you experienced when hitting phantasms) -that is on a long cooldown, and distortion, which makes them go all blurry and gives them evasion for 1 second per illusion shattered. Shatters are different than clone death, so if clones are causing conditions on death,the mesmer will probably not be shattering much.

I think the first thing you need to do vs a mesmer is slow down. Don’t panic, and remember to keep the fight in your control. Mesmers do have access to stealth, but their stealth is much more limited than thief stealth – so you can always wait them out. If you have dagger off-hand, you can delay the fight indefinitely, and only fight on your terms. In fact, the mesmer makes this easier than most classes, as you can cloak and dagger off of any illusion (without worrying about dodges). Just be patient and look for an opening.

The next thing to do is recognize what type of mesmer you are fighting – if they have any signets, those will be a tell. Signet of domination is either one of the very rare shutdown type builds, or more commonly a condition build (yay, thieves have good condition clears), signet of illusions is probably a phantasm build. If there are no signets, then pay attention to play-style. Are they summoning a lot of phantasms? Are they dodging and leaving clones behind? The most important distinction to make is shatter vs phantasm build.

For Phantasm builds – the phantasms hit like trucks, and they will hit you when you come out of stealth. So you want to get your damage in on the mesmer, and focus on dodging phantasms. Also, if there is no signet of illusions, then the phantasms are fairly easy to kill, so if you can take them out with a quick autoattack, an aoe skill or CnD, then that’s good. Don’t waste too much initiative on phantasms though, the mesmer can bring them back about every 20 seconds or so (and will usually have 2-3 every 20 seconds in a phantasm build). Also recognize that phantasm mesmers are often considered OP in 1v1 battles (they’re average in small groups and ok in zerg v zerg). On the other hand, thieves can win 1v1s against them if they play well…you just need to practice it.

For shatter builds – the shatters are the main source of damage, and damage comes in bursts. The biggest tell is a mesmer dodging for no reason other than to create a clone. Even having that trait suggests a shatter build (except for a few condition builds). The important thing here is to watch for tells that a burst is coming. When a mesmer shatters, their illusions all rush towards a target at once and then put their hands to their sides and look up- then turn into butterflies. You can run away from the clones, and you can dodge the shatter effects. Because of that, mesmers often use combos that set up a shatter. One burst is illusionary leap – the mesmer, wielding a 1 handed sword – sends a clone leaping toward you – which cripples, then swaps places, which immobilizes, then blurred frenzies you, while shattering. If you see a mesmer with a one handed sword, save a dodge for that initial clone that jumps toward you – and you may avoid the burst. There are also mini-bursts – like a greatsword mesmer might send out a phantasm, then a clone then shatter. You can avoid this by cloak and daggering off the phantasm or clone as soon as you see it. Basically look for a sign that the shatter is coming and avoid it, and you can beat a shatter mesmer.

In either case, the most important thing to do is not waste too much initiative on illusions, and use illusions to keep you stealthed until you are ready to hit the real mesmer.

One more thing – you may want to ask a similar question on the mesmer forums (be polite and don’t tell them they’re overpowered), they will probably be very helpful.

I’d say for your next set, go with something kinda cookie cutter, like those zerker damage builds.

You already strayed off the beaten course and are regretting it a bit (I get it – I’ve done it too). Now you should go back to something tried and true (like a power – crit set)…then when you get bored, you’ll be able to go back or throw in splashes of gear with slightly different stats…and you’ll have an idea of what those cookie cutter sets are capable of, so you’ll have a yard stick to compare.

One other thing – before working toward a specific set, give it a shot in pvp.

doubleomar.2165:

Hi. Thief is my first and only 80, and since I leveled almost exclusively as d/d sb, I chose to craft myself a full set of rampager’s (With which I currently run d/d sb 25/30/0/0/15 cnd backstab).

Problem is, Im tempted to try other playstyles, likely involving S/ and I feel I might have shot myself in the foot with my choice of gear. Before any of you say “just get a second set” I do hear and understand it’s likely my only choice barring staying dd, but the process of getting a second set after all the trouble i went through for this one would greatly diminish my enjoyment of the game (not a fan of the grind).

Please help me figure out if I can still try other weapons and builds without changing out of this set of gear, or have I carved myself into a niche and would need to replace the set?
Thanks in advance.

Well, while you’re shooting yourself in the foot, you may try P/D, which should work fine with rampager’s (though less survivable than I’d like). P/D is more survivable than D/D and more reliable, but less dps vs unmoving targets. So for PvE this won’t be an improvement. For WvW it will be fun (and will do moderately more damage than Carrion – which is what I run – though you lose a lot of survivability).

If what you want is a perfect PvE build, zerker’s is really the best way to go – though rampager’s also works (as you probably know). People usually recommend mixing gear, starting with zerker trinkets, and combinations of berzerker / soldiers / cavaliers / knights / valk’s armor. There are a few posts talking about which combos work the best. The important thing to remember is that crit-damage pays off better on trinkets than on armor – so if something is going to have crit-damage – it should be a trinket first (i.e. don’t go zerker armor with pvt trinkets).

Travlane.5948:

if you have 2 daggers and on each dagger is a sigil of rage….i know they share the same cooldown…..but does that give you 2x the chance at it going off bc there is 2?
for instance. sigil of rage: 10% chance to gain quickness on a crit for 3 secs.

so you hit something and Sigil A: 10% chance misses
on the same hit then goes Sigil B: 10 % chance Proc’s and quickness buff goes on.

Yes very odd place for this question, and you’re right, both have a chance to proc – but they share a cooldown. So that’s not quite a 20% chance. The chance one misses is 9/10, the chance both miss is 81/100. Is this a popular sigil now? There’s a thief trait that gives quickness on a critical with a 30 second cooldown. It’s useful for a burst build, since the critical will happen on either the CnD or the backstab…so it gives you quickness at the exact moment you need it. I suppose these sigils could extend that a bit – not sure if the quickness would stack.

VS melee focused builds, shadow strike is great…they gap-close, you dodge back to cripple/bleed, then shadowstrike. They gap-close again, you do the same again. You can also dodge into them, and shadowstrike to confuse them. Either way, the warrior spends their time chasing while crippled and tormented, and you spend the time auto-attacking to apply bleeds and shadowstriking. Don’t need to be stealthed if you’re not taking damage. The harder part is when the warrior starts running away.

This is actually well balanced vs CnD, giving the P/D build two equivalent styles of play, and the ability to fluidly shift between or combine them. You can also do a condi-spike that is not possible with CnD alone: 5-dodge(caltrops)-1-3-steal (giving initiative)-3-infiltrator sig.-3 = 7-9 bleeds + 6 torments. Leaves you a bit exposed, but it’s a solid burst. Remember those torments are worth more than bleeds damage-wise (at 1500 condition dmg, it’s about 197 per stack, per tick, double while moving vs 117 bleeding dmg). Assuming your opponent is moving: 9 bleeds + 6 torments is (1057.5 + 1182 = 2240 per second if not moving or 3421.5 per second if moving). The base durations are 4 for bleeds and 5 for torment, so with some + duration gear, you could easily get it up to 7 and 8 seconds. That’s a total of 7402.5 + 18912 in 8 seconds…not to mention reapplied bleeds. Without condition clears, that’s a dead opponent.

Chewy.9263:

You kittentard thieves are beyond stupid. I main a thief, and Heartseeker spam is by far the most broken mechanic the class has, the OP is wrong about that. The OP is not having trouble dealing with these thieves, he is simply stating that it is discouraging a variable, more skillful, gameplay.

Here, you all have (save for a few) attacked the OP trying to make a intelligent discussion about how to discourage spamming the same skill over and over and over and over… etc.

Having this exhaustion would inevitably encourage more skillful gameplay. It makes thief have to actually think and use its other skills. Hell, I’d go so far as to create a debuff that makes thieves take more damage if they spam the same skill.

Now I await for the post infringements and all the trash I am going to get for this post. Cheers!

Are you trying to bandwagon troll?…you won’t get it from me, all you’ll get is love and hugs.

FYI – you can get 47% condi-duration from gear alone:
2 giver weapons – 20%
2 Sup Lyssa runes – 10%
2 Sup Mad King runes – 10%
2 Major mad king runes – 7%

Add in pizza, and you’ve got 87% condi-duration (or 83% if you go for cheaper pizza)

That’s Without any points into deadly arts…throw in 20 points in DA and you’ve got 100% (and two runes to spare)

Note that conditions round up every 1/4 second, so if you’re trying to get a 1 second condition to last two seconds (like daze from sleight of hand), you only need 76% condition duration. – But if you want the most ticks out of bleeds, you may want to go for 100% (minimum 94%) to get the full 8 seconds, as opposed to 7 (on sneak attack/vital shot). You only get a damage tick every second, so 1/4 seconds won’t help any.

So if you go full condition gear, with pizza, and a bleed duration sigil, you’ll get 87% condi-duration for dazes – giving you 2 second dazes, and 97% bleed duration, giving you 8 second bleeds.

You can of course subtract pieces from that if you decide to put points in DA.

Edit : looks like I was wrong about Daze – apparently it’s not a condition, so you need specific runes/sigils for daze to increase…but it rounds up a whole second, so it may be worth it.

I’m really liking my P/D condition build. I’m also thinking that it can serve as training wheels for thieves in WvW. Having mostly carrion gear, with a bit of rabid, and mostly defensive stats (0/0/30/20/20), it is very survivable. It also gets you used to landing CnDs in order to survive, but in a much more forgiving build.

I think this sort of build will set a newbie thief up for using a D/D, backstab build without having to die a lot. On the other hand, it requires completely different gear…so if you want to get right in with those backstabs, I’d follow others’ advice.

s/d is also viable in WvW…though I find it difficult to use. Others swear by it. Get good at CnD, and you can be nearly as uncatchable as d/p. On the other hand you’ll also have very respectable auto-attack damage, snares galore, teleports and boonstripping on demand. Your burst isn’t as good, but you’ve got tools to make up for it.

S/d is ok in PvE too, but S/P is better 90% of the time. In a zerky build, S/P is a great mixture of aoe dps, evasions and CC.

Also to the OP, there are a few ways to permastealth. With D/P, use black powder, then heartseeker through it 3-4 times. You’ll see little red circles on the ground. This is not an efficient way to stealth, so it needs lots of initiative regen to work, which detracts from the damage of the build…these builds tend to be mediocre in damage output, but very good at getting away. Note they can’t hit anything with those heartseekers, or they get revealed. Also dropping an aoe on their red circles messes them up.

The other near perma-stealth option is CnD every 4 seconds. Technically this requires you to hit something every 4 seconds (which is easy with pets and minions running around). If the thief hits too early, they get revealed. If they wait to long, stealth might run out for a second or two, which gives you a chance to dodge the CnD, as you’ll see it coming (unless they do it off your minion).

Vincent – the OP asked how to counter CnD. Not how to deal with thieves in general or backstab builds per-se. Since it wasn’t clear, some people focused on the fact that he was referring to CnD as a vehicle for near perma-stealth. If that’s what’s being done, then counting to 4 and dodging is a viable tactic, since they miss their CnD and have to blow a cooldown to stay stealthed. You’re right that they can still restealth, but it screws them up a bit, and it’s not hard to do. They can also backstab at any point, but as was mentioned, that reveals them, which makes them open to CC from the necro. Also I don’t believe a single backstab can take down even the glassiest of necro builds – as they tend to have lots of health. In either case, I don’t think anyone was recommending just standing completely still with no defenses and dodging every 4 seconds as the only strategy (although I sometimes do this as my mesmer tank build to draw thieves out).

I don’t know necros that well, and forgive me if some of this stuff has already been mentioned (just skimmed the thread).
1 – AOE hits thieves regardless of stealth, and you don’t need to see the thief. If it’s a CnD thief, then the only access to stealth is off of an enemy – which is likely you or your minions. So you can predict their location. CnD lasts 3-4 seconds, so wait 2 seconds, and you can be sure that a mark/well placed on you will probably hit.
2 – Thieves do have a lot of dodges, which can counter wells, as well as condition clears while in stealth. Still if you can get a fear on a thief out of stealth, it’s practically gg.
3 – channeled skills keep hitting the thief while they are in stealth. A lot of necro skills are channeled, which usually is bad, but in this case it’s solid. If you can start channeling in the seconds you see that thief, you’re good.
4 – death shroud negates the burst of thieves. If you get basilisk poisoned, the thief is setting up a burst, hit death shroud immediately, and you should be fine.
5 – thieves can’t afford to miss a lot of CnDs – though they can miss backstabs and be just fine. CnD is a longish animation with the dagger sweeping across the thieve’s body. If you can predict that – seeing the thief running toward you while unstealthed – then you can dodge.
6 – some thieves time their CnDs so they hit just as they get out of stealth-thereby getting no revealed debuff. This is either a defensive tactic (because they need to stay stealthed to stay alive), or just a troll strategy. If this is what they’re doing, you can be sure they’ll stick to you like glue, so just use those well strategies, or get used to counting to 4 after each CnD – and then dodge. If you have minions, then the thief might use them to stealth. In which case, maybe ignore the thief. Also maybe let the minions die, so the thief can’t use them as a free stealth anymore.

Good necros give me a lot of trouble on thief, so I think you should be good. There are of course thief builds that are very strong vs standard necro builds, so it could go either way.

purgatoryz.6038:

Don’t worry, with everyone doing a mad dash to P/D builds you’ll probably see less HS spam

We’re going to need an abbreviation for “Spam 5 – 1 – 3 – dodge – 5+F1 moar, newb!”

Bull Zooker.1672:

Travlane.5948:

lets drop the hypotheticals and look at what it is.

aint happening. if u dodge 2 of these you will have 85% hp and the thief 0 init.

this is a l2p issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIv0lboqzZg

except when one jumps you mid fight, you have 0 dodges and 50-60% hp after having a good fun fight with someone. then out of the blue you get jumped by a burst thief using nothing but heart seeker annd your previously fun fight is now a rather frustrating ‘I just got owned by a noob cos heart seeker is too powerful even when used by someone with no idea what theyre doing’ moment.

heart seeker spam literally makes me cringe.

as a result I try to avoid using it at all costs on my thief.

Every class has a glass cannon build or 3 that can accomplish the exact same thing with a different skill / combo. Warriors with rifles, for example, could do it by one shotting you as you stomp – where’s the skill in that? Barely winning a fight and immediately having to fight again without a reset is almost like a 2v1…and so if the game is reasonably balanced, you will be at a disadvantage. There is no dishonor in losing an outnumbered fight. There is a bit of dishonor in whining about it.

Not sure about how good the ele is, but Jumper is a top notch thief. The ele dies quick. Jumper does a voice-over and claims his build is actually very strong vs d/d eles. He does a lot of videos, so you might want to check some of them out on twitch.

Incidentally, jumper’s build is powerful, but very steep learning curve – I certainly don’t feel comfortable running it.

dragonkain.3984:

animalmom.1062:

Odd timing for the OP given they just buffed SS, people are claiming condi spam is now meta and the numerous P/D threads on the board in the last few days.

I think the 3 change is great – allows you to have more defensive play vs melee heavy builds.

2 does suck tho, got that right

People overrate that useless torment, any good pvp build will have condition remover, and since thief got so few conditions it’s just stupdily easy to counter such build.

With just p/d, you get vulnerability, cripple, torment and bleeds. With venoms/traps/sigils/utilities, you can add poison / chill / immobilize / blind. It certainly can’t compete with necros or mesmers for variety of conditions – but that’s 7-8 conditions that can all be applied within a 5 second combo. What it does have is superior survivability, good utility, good mobility and easy application of bleeds. Maybe not the best for PvP, since it relies heavily on stealth…still that’s a general thief problem in PvP. For WvW, where survivability is the most important element in a build, it does great.

More importantly though – if you play the build, you’ll see condition clears certainly hurt dps – condition duration reducers hurt more. But either way, you wind up reapplying bleeds constantly. Most builds can’t cleanse bleeds as quickly or frequently as you apply them…so the DPS is still decent, even with good condition clears. You also stealth a lot, so conditions aren’t really a concern – as you have excellent condition removal / hp regeneration. Not at all concerned about a skill with a long cooldown that transfers 6 stacks of bleeds to me. I’m more concerned with being CC’d, which is the bane of most thief builds. At least I have a few stun-breakers in my build.

This is really the thief version of a bunker build, and so offense isn’t as good as other builds, and like other bunkers, there will be duels that the thief can’t win (or can only win after 10 minutes). On the other hand, the opponent usually won’t be able to win either.

OP, you post on the thief forums, expecting a reasonable discussion as you demand a nerf to a core thief mechanic. Then when people give you polite, but dissenting replies, you insult their intelligence…so I’d like to return the favor. What kind of person would expect a different response? Your insult to people’s intelligence conveys your own ignorance, as people were appropriately responding to your post. Here’s why:

1) You propose a major nerf to the thief core mechanic.
2) You do very little to justify the need for the nerf
3) The only justification you give, is that skill spamming is somehow overpowered (presumably heartseeker spam? I know you’re not complaining about body shot).
4) Since your argument is based on a flawed assumption, people attacked the assumption, rather than entertaining your “solution” which is absolutely not needed – because there isn’t a problem.
5) Refusing to follow your directions (think it over, and don’t disagree with me) is not the same as being too stupid to read your whole post. People didn’t need to think much, because any thief player can see that this post has no merit.
6) All you need to do to see how flawed your assumption is, is what you imagine thieves are doing…roll a thief, get out there in PvP and heartseeker spam. See how many people you down, and how long you stay alive.
7) Hopefully as part of that, you’ll also L2P.

This always happens, someone posts something about how great a build is (or Op’d – depending on whether they play thief). And immediately after, someone is posting about how horrible and underpowered it is. Why don’t you take a look at some of those raving threads, and put the complaining post in there? Or hey, just read them, and see how people are really liking p/d now.

I’ve been playing p/d + d/d condition with carrion gear, and am loving it. My build is 0/0/30/20/20, and I have no issues with initiative, maintaining health, staying stealthed, or gap closing. I also do respectable condition damage. I frequently use 5-1-3 as a combo. 3 is great and easy to land after a CnD, and if you have the initiative (i.e. not min-maxing on damage), makes for a nice cover condition, while you wait for revealed to go away. The only skill I don’t really use is body shot (and I always forget to use dancing dagger – though I should use it more).

I do think body shot needs some work. Not sure how they could really fix it. We’ve already got a snare, a gap-creator, a stealth and a damage skill…What extra utility to we need on mainhand pistol? Maybe reduce the vulnerability but make it aoe and a blast finisher (centered on target)? For P/D, this would give it some group utility, and a bit of aoe damage but not much more…but that’s fine, not much more is needed.

For P/P it would offer a form of stealth as an escape. However the stealth would be a bit tricky to land, since it’s centered on the target. You’d basically have to be in melee range, drop black powder, then immediately body shot at point blank to get stealth. It wouldn’t be overpowered, since it’s expensive and counterplay is simple (back away from the black powder). This also means that P/P could serve as a variant condition build (though it’d be much more initiative heavy), or that it could work as a hybrid build, as you could use sneak attacks occasionally but also unloads.

I just want to say thanks to both JQ and FA for a good fight this week. I’m surprised we’ve done as well as we have, and I attribute some of that to FA. They have really stepped up this week and held their own, despite lower round the clock coverage. During their prime-time, they are consistently holding their borderlands and fighting on others. I love having an actual 3-way fight, where we can count on our enemy’s enemy to keep them a little bit busy, and keep them from taking stuff without having to defend it. JQ has kept up relentless pressure, just a constant stream of omega golems (and loot bags) which has been fun to play against. Keep up the good play everyone!

Sir Vincent III.1286:

EATtheDEAD.4768:

CnD doesn’t even work properly for me lol. It never grants stealth.

You can’t just spam it. You have to wait for the stealth to wear off, typically after 3s, then use it again. Never use it while in stealth, else you’ll get revealed.

A simple combination of traits like “Infusion of Shadow” and “Hastened Replenishment” will allow you to troll with CnD.

The key word is troll, you can only do mediocre dps like that, but you make yourself more survivable…people like to do this in zergs in wvw too. In a small scale battle, you become very predictable…where’s the thief? Well probably right behind you. You can guess where that thief is, and probably outdps him with your autoattack.

This just occurred to me, as I was pursued along with 4 others by a 40 player zerg…unable to use any skills, despite the fact that they would have saved me…all because of skill lag.

It seems that the bigger zerg has the advantage when it comes to skill lag. I may be unable to use skills, but others somehow are, so why is this the case? I imagine there must be some sort of buffer of skills that can be handled at once, and the each person has a shot of getting a skill off, depending on which type of skill it is, and pure luck. The thing with luck is, the more players, the more they benefit from the luck. So if this is how it actually works, large zergs get to create skill lag, and then they get to disproportionately benefit from it, because they have more players in this game of chance.

Just throwing this out there, but might it be possible to preferentially queue up skills from the outnumbered group, so as to subtly discourage massive zergs? So for example, if a 40 player zerg took on a 30 player zerg, each player in the 30 player group would have a 1/4 improved chance of getting a skill off as compared to the 40 player group. This means that they would have roughly even numbers of skills going off between the groups, despite the fact that one is outnumbering the other. This makes smaller groups able to take on larger groups, even in the face of horrible lag. In fact, the smaller groups may benefit from it.

It’s not that I have something against massive zergs per-se, but with the presence of skill-lag, they do tend to make the game unplayable or at least un-fun. If they didn’t also guarantee success, I imagine people would strategically try to run slightly smaller groups, which would make the game more fun for everyone.

I know, ideally, skill lag should not occur at all. And if this issue is ever fixed, or at least improved substantially, I think this sort of soft buff would naturally disappear – less lag = buffer matters less. But that’s fine, I only recommend it so as to encourage reasonable player strategies that don’t hamper enjoyment of the game for everyone.. And to provide a simple consequence – run with a lag-producing zerg, and suffer diminishing returns.

Looks like thieves are the first to get a new weapon. And that weapon is the Longbow! Now thieves can finally stealth and attack from long range! And we got pets too!

I see it more as a thief buff…cos now thieves have a long-ranged weapon, and pets.

I’ve been running 0-0-20-20-30
With frequent steals, perma-swiftness, and playing with shadow trap as a gap-closer/escape.

I get initiative through acrobatics, so I can use both 5 and 3 relatively easily. A typical rotation is 5 -1-3-1-1-steal+5-shadow trap-1-3-1-1-return (stealth+might+fury)- 1-3-1-1 throw a few dodges in there as needed. Of course you don’t always want to teleport away from your target, but it’s a nice thing to throw in especially vs meleers. Damage-wise, it’s essentially 3 bleeds, which is nothing to sneeze at.

One tip – when using pistol with offensive shadow-trap, you need to be careful about revealing yourself. I turned auto-attack off because I would always beat my pistol shot to my target, which would instantly reveal me after the teleport.

Regarding warrior buffs – what’s the big deal? Warriors have been the worst in PvP for a long time. Sure the PvE thing is annoying, but whatever…let them have it.

Iavra.8510:

This is without taking traits, BUT:
- we need 45 traitpoints to get -20% cd on 2 of 3 stealth skills (cleansing conflagration + iCelerity).
- we can’t take both cd reduction traits + PU since that would cost 75 traitpoints.
- ranger needs 20 traitpoints to get -20% cd on his stealth skill + SB if he decides to use double bows.
- ranger uses 1 weapon skill whereas we have to also use 1 utility skill and our elite.
- the ranger -cd trait is in an agressive traitline, while ours are defensive/supportive.

This is not saying that we should get more stealth skills but that our cds are too high and we need to invest a lot more to achieve the same as other classes.

I think these are all good points. I think moving illusionists celerity was probably a good call on ANet’s part. Unfortunately, all of the cooldowns were sort of balanced wtih illusionists celerity as a given. Now that it’s moved, many cooldowns feel excessive (especially decoy and mirror images).

All that said, I don’t see mesmer stealth as underpowered. With prismatic understanding, stealth is very useful for mesmers as a buff generator. On top of that, mesmer clones and phantasms get in the way of targeting them. Which makes stealth particularly useful for them. Even vs a good opponent, it may take 1-2 seconds out of stealth before the opponent begins targeting the mesmer. While a mesmer is stealthed, they also do good damage, through clone shatters / condition damage / phantasms. In WvW perma-stealth or near perma-stealth for mesmers means hiding in towers for portals..so this should never be possible (unless coordinating with a thief). Veil and Mass invis affect large groups of people quickly (unlike shadow refuge – which can be very useful in large fights. Take all of those together and stealth for mesmers is much more powerful than it is for thieves, and their access to stealth should be balanced accordingly.

With regards to balance issues – I see the ranger thing more as an affront to thieves than mesmers. Thieves rely very heavily on stealth for survival, but also need to get out of stealth to deal damage (usually at melee range). Then due to the revealed debuff, they need to stay out of stealth for a bit. If they’re using dagger offhand, then they have to land a melee attack to get back into stealth (or blow a longish cooldown). If they are using pistol off-hand, they have to use a ton of initiative (which is equivalent to blowing 2-3 weapon cooldowns). Because of these issues, a stealth based thief may be stealthed 50% of the time while in combat (or they’re just trying to stay alive and not doing any real damage).

Rangers are now getting a free stealth from range on a weapon that is already longer range than anyone else’s. With a pet that gets perma-swiftness (with the same skill) and can hit like a truck. And they get this for about 33% of the time, and they still do damage while stealthed (through the pet). On top of being able to do all of this with a long range weapon, they also get a knockdown and an aoe-cripple-dot.

Just read through the other professions – warriors, guardians, rangers and necros (also nerfed slightly) got tons of buffs. Eles, mesmers, thieves and engies got barely anything. So half the classes got buffed and half got minor tweaks. I guess thanks for not nerfing us? But I think mesmers are not going to be feeling particularly powerful in the new meta.

I’ll catch you up on the forums:
Thieves are underpowered
Nerf Thieves!
Troll
My new build 10/30/30/0/0!
QQ
How do I beat thieves?
Troll
QQ
They nerfed us!
Thieves are underpowered.

Why is staff more ridiculous than greatsword? Many rogue-like characters use staves. But I’m thinking they’ll start with utility skills, not new weapon sets.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

Most important thing about the mesmer is having many sets of awesome looking armor. Keep the runes for alpha strike lols. Start a collection.

Exactly…I also like to change my armor color various times while running with a zerg.

I love everything about the staff…even in a power build, it is great. The (weaker) conditions make iwarlock hit much harder, the boons help regardless, and the chaos armor / chaos storm are still pretty good.

In a condition build, with condition duration, they can be great. perma-burning + lots of bleeding, and occasional CC. I don’t really care about vulnerability, but I tend to get 10 stacks of that without trying.

On top of that, phase retreat is amazing. The positioning advantage it gives you is subtle, but very strong vs melee / aoe. You essentially have an extra dodge + teleport.

Just wondering; there’s that pistol trait in trickery…ever tried it, is it worth it under any circumstances? Those other trickery (steal-buffing) traits are just so good, I can’t imagine justifying it, even in a p/d build.

I could see it in a p/p build, but thats a lot of points to invest in stats that don’t help much.

Travlane.5948:

theere will be a trait increase i think…but not till they add more lvls. they said in teh beginning they would do that. i think each class would have many more possibilities if they gave us just 10 more points. more builds more options = more fun.

i hope we do get more non stealth help bc right now we cant stealth in spvp and we have to in wvw. its tough.

More trait points doesnt make more builds…it makes people able to do more of everything, without having to commit or focus. It’s actually less builds.

One comment about runes; have you considered 2 Lyssa, 2 mad king and 2 major mad king runes? That gives you 27% condition duration across the board, rather than just bleed/burning duration. It would mean longer bleeds, but also longer confusion / blinds / cripples /dazes, etc.

zexion.5842:

There is too many factors to risk full condition. If your clones die, fights where conditions aren’t going to work, world bosses, grouped up with 4 other condition players.

The added power should off set the loss of condition damage (because of condition damage scaling) and be better for more situations.

I also can’t remember where I researched it but around 2800 attack is ideal for Staff/scepter power damage portion. So that’s what I was originally aiming for while keeping condition damage high.

I think a hybrid build is fine, and not all damage has to come from conditions, but this logic is flawed. Your hybrid damage may increase your personal dps, even when grouped with other condition players – so you don’t feel useless. Unfortunately, it will still hamper the group’s dps to be exceeding the bleed cap. You will wind up either ruining your own dps or another player’s dps…either way, you wind up with the following equation: 1 player + 1 player = 1.5 players worth of damage. Playing a hybrid build in PvE is the same as playing a condition build, in that you can’t group up with lots of other condition builds and expect decent group dps. Again, since you’re a hybrid, you may feel like you’re still putting out good dps, but your mediocre bleeds will be overwriting a condition necro’s awesome bleeds…thereby reducing the group’s damage output.

So bottom line; a hybrid build may do better than a pure condition build by itself or it may not (this probably has a lot to do with personal preference/play-style). In a group, they both have the same limitations. You need to be aware of the other condition builds in the group, and make sure you’re not stepping on eachother. At what point should you start considering yourself a condition build? I think if your build routinely puts 10+ stacks of bleeds on an opponent, then you need to act as if you are a full condition build when grouping for PvE. Even if you are wearing full berzerker armor, and those bleeds are only ticking for 50 dmg: They are still impacting the group dps, if there is another condition build in the group, and so you need to be considerate.

I don’t have much trouble with necros for the most part in 1v1s, even with mediocre condi-removal. They do give me trouble in 1v3+s though. I also don’t know their skills that well…so maybe the necro’s I’ve been playing against aren’t that skilled.

The key for me with necros is to keep them on the defensive. You can do lots of damage while kiting/out of line of sight, especially with a condition/phantasm build. Necros have good answers to conditions, but mesmer condition builds reapply them constantly. Meanwhile, phantasm builds of any kind are just great in 1v1s. I haven’t played burst/shatter builds often, but I’ve had similar experiences with them vs necros.

Niccolo.1402:

Okay, so if you’re not the ‘assassin’ type, and you like being valued in a zerg or defending/attacking a keep, what is the best thief build to use? Don’t get me wrong, I like badges and bags, but I want the group to know I’m doing my share of the work.

If you’re doing your share in a zerg then you will 1) be alive throughout the battle, and 2) get lots of badges. The badges mean you are doing damage to a lot of people…No single person in a zerg kills people single-handedly. The point is using numbers and coordination to win.

The only professions that can be massively beneficial to a zerg without getting lots of badges are mesmers (i.e. null field, veil, portal – the thankless skills), and guardians (in a full support class). Everyone else gets loot because they do damage.

The group will absolutely not recognize you as an important component in most cases – this is just because zergs are so chaotic, everyone is just focused on themselves and getting from point A-B alive. A good shadow-refuge res on a commander can’t hurt for your personal recognition though. Otherwise, just stay tight to the commander as much as possible, and you’ll look like a solid player.

Mainly don’t die, and no one will have a problem with you. They may still all believe that thieves are aweful in zergs…but that’s an issue of perspective. Glass cannon d/p thieves suck as part of zergs, but we are smart adaptive people, right? We don’t bring the cookie cutter troll build into a setting where it doesn’t belong, right?

One more thing – I haven’t tried venom share in a zerg much, but do the math, and this may be one way to make a big difference that won’t be reflected in loot bags (though you still get loot bags). Each application of spider venom gives 6 life-steals – which are 400 dmg and 600-700 healing. With venom share – you’re giving that to 5 people other than yourself. So thats 6×6×400 damage = 14.4k damage and 6×6×600 healing = 21.6k healing. Not too bad for an instant skill that also gives aoe might and condition effects, and depending on your build, you will have access to maybe 3 of them on decent cooldowns.

Niccolo.1402:

Okay, so if you’re not the ‘assassin’ type, and you like being valued in a zerg or defending/attacking a keep, what is the best thief build to use? Don’t get me wrong, I like badges and bags, but I want the group to know I’m doing my share of the work.

If you’re doing your share in a zerg then you will 1) be alive throughout the battle, and 2) get lots of badges. The badges mean you are doing damage to a lot of people…No single person in a zerg kills people single-handedly. The point is using numbers and coordination to win.

The only professions that can be massively beneficial to a zerg without getting lots of badges are mesmers (i.e. null field, veil, portal – the thankless skills), and guardians (in a full support class). Everyone else gets loot because they do damage.

The group will absolutely not recognize you as an important component in most cases – this is just because zergs are so chaotic, everyone is just focused on themselves and getting from point A-B alive. A good shadow-refuge res on a commander can’t hurt for your personal recognition though. Otherwise, just stay tight to the commander as much as possible, and you’ll look like a solid player.

Mainly don’t die, and no one will have a problem with you. They may still all believe that thieves are aweful in zergs…but that’s an issue of perspective. Glass cannon d/p thieves suck as part of zergs, but we are smart adaptive people, right? We don’t bring the cookie cutter troll build into a setting where it doesn’t belong, right?