Guild Wars 2

AikijinX.6258:

We are among one of the best condition removal classes in this game.

SA Thieves have among the best condition removal in the game.

If do you don’t have points in SA, your condition removal is lackluster.

Inf strike/SR is a good tool for mitigating minor/slow condition stacking…which isn’t the current meta. The current meta is burst conditions, 3-5 in less than 2 seconds. SR does little for that.

Shadowstep is ok, but it’s also a stunbreaker. Blowing a stunbreaker just to cleanse some conditions can be a misuse of the skill, and lets not forget that you’re going to have to end up exactly where you initiated the Shadowstep from if you want those conditions gone.

Pain response is actually fairly strong, except that it triggers then you hit 75%, instead of when you have 75% and at least one of those conditions on you.

Lyssa runes and BV are almost a requirement to survive when you get swamped with 6+ conditions in 2 seconds.

ensoriki.5789:

evilapprentice.6379:

ensoriki.5789:

evilapprentice.6379:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Atherakhia.4086:

Didn’t the winning team only have 1 ranger? And didn’t the winning team’s warrior shut down the other rangers the whole match? Why are we still talking about spirit rangers?

Was lurking, but the answer is because spirit rangers are the newest “we must nerf this no matter what!” QQ-magnet PvP has seen. The community around PvP is the one thing that makes PvP near impossible to joy. “You beat my build, yours is either OP or you were cheating!” is the common mindset I’ve seen here.

Passive Play. Passive play is the problem. Along with screen clutter and body blocking. How did you miss that?

Tbh I think SR is over exaggerated in passivity. It doesn’t feel anymore passive fighting them then every ranger spec I’ve ever seen. The prof has set and forget utils.

Every attack carries the possibility of a spirit proc.

If you’re fighting a Hammer – M/S warrior, or a S/D thief, you know what attacks you need to avoid based on your spec.

Against a spirit ranger, thats every single auto attack, because spirit’s can trigger off of literally every attack. So now, you still have to dodge the things you’d normally dodge, and eat the spirit triggers, because you can’t possibly dodge every single attack. That’s just silly.

And If a warrior brings banners of discipline all his attacks are candidates I can’t kill them and killing him won’t remove them.

Elementalist glyph 25% chance for condis. I’m not looking sleep over it. On crit sigils, on hit/crit traits, always on passives like dagger mastery. Illusionary duelist. The game is full of passive benefits and damage who gives a kitten. You don’t need to dodge every attack. You nuke spirits so there is no proc to begin with. Is that a problem to do? Then maybe raise that the counter play to spirits isn’t feasible.

However with spirits I can pop headshot removing the immunity on ranger. Drop pistolwhip ignore all of his Bs spam and the spirits actives as I kill them. Then he is just a ranger with no utils and if he brings up more they go down just as fast. Bless melee cleave abaddon. Its the same ideaology between a longbow or grenade nuke. Blow spirits then there is no passive. gg Ranger.

Who’s claiming they’re OP? Spirit rangers are a joke for my spec – steal the tree, drop it, choking gas, and cluster bomb on the point – I either win or take the point, all while healing, spreading poison and weakness, and removing conditions. But that’s not really counter play, that’s a rather specific set of circumstances that happen to make my spec very strong at shutting down everything a spirit ranger counts on.

Everyone has passive play, it just shouldn’t be the entire focus of the spec. To be fair, I’m not a big fan of the Stealth spam condition mesmer either, as its design philosophy is similar – trait to empower your pets to do all the work, then hide as much and as often as possible.

Is there really any weight to a win in the current meta?

NA, EU, who cares who’s the best at AoE condition spam and screen clutter?

ensoriki.5789:

evilapprentice.6379:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Atherakhia.4086:

Didn’t the winning team only have 1 ranger? And didn’t the winning team’s warrior shut down the other rangers the whole match? Why are we still talking about spirit rangers?

Was lurking, but the answer is because spirit rangers are the newest “we must nerf this no matter what!” QQ-magnet PvP has seen. The community around PvP is the one thing that makes PvP near impossible to joy. “You beat my build, yours is either OP or you were cheating!” is the common mindset I’ve seen here.

Passive Play. Passive play is the problem. Along with screen clutter and body blocking. How did you miss that?

Tbh I think SR is over exaggerated in passivity. It doesn’t feel anymore passive fighting them then every ranger spec I’ve ever seen. The prof has set and forget utils.

Every attack carries the possibility of a spirit proc.

If you’re fighting a Hammer – M/S warrior, or a S/D thief, you know what attacks you need to avoid based on your spec.

Against a spirit ranger, thats every single auto attack, because spirit’s can trigger off of literally every attack. So now, you still have to dodge the things you’d normally dodge, and eat the spirit triggers, because you can’t possibly dodge every single attack. That’s just silly.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Atherakhia.4086:

Didn’t the winning team only have 1 ranger? And didn’t the winning team’s warrior shut down the other rangers the whole match? Why are we still talking about spirit rangers?

Was lurking, but the answer is because spirit rangers are the newest “we must nerf this no matter what!” QQ-magnet PvP has seen. The community around PvP is the one thing that makes PvP near impossible to joy. “You beat my build, yours is either OP or you were cheating!” is the common mindset I’ve seen here.

Passive Play. Passive play is the problem. Along with screen clutter and body blocking. How did you miss that?

There’s alot of “obstructed” issues in the game, I know, but Steal places me next to my target. It appears the game treats steal as a ranged attack, where it should be treated as a shadowstep and melee attack.

I’m getting pretty sick of seeing this – I steal, teleport to my target, and the game reports “Obstructed”

How is a telport that places me beside my target obstructed? Furthermore, how can a class defining skill still have such a largely detrimental bug in it a year into the game? You’ve got a ton of thief trats designed to specifically work with steal, every time steal is obstructed, you’re kittening up my spec.

Please address the issue with the haste you seem to reserve for PvE bugs.

mbh.8301:

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

And Im certain Anet realized by now the issue the AI spam is for cluterring the screen.

The petting zoo build lost pax, therefore there is nothing wrong with it.

“The team that won was running a petting zoo build – obviously there is something wrong with it.

See why this argument doesn’t work?

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

Hammerheart.1426:

Unfortunately, we act like a woman who has suffered long term spousal abuse, but refuses to end the relationship.

This.
This is every dedicated PvPer in GW2. We invested so much we dont want to let it go.

Well, credit where credit is due – akittens very core, GW2 is an amazing concept. The basics are unlike any other MMO I’ve ever personally played for PvP. It’s easy to become so disappointed when they take something that could be truly amazing and revolutionary and bury it under a pile of lag, year long unaddressed bugs, ignoring the community, treating PvP as an afterthought, and awful, awful balance decisions.

Its like they cashed in all their chips for this 1 amazing idea, and then they were done – they had to build the rest of the game with idiots ideas and popsicle sticks.

Regardless how people feel about WvW, PvP and WvW are very obviously split. We’re in the SPvP forums, this is concerning SPvP

Claiming that this game is "The place to go for PvP’ is rather disingenuous, considering what a mess the current SPvP meta is and the communities almost unanimous hated for it, the problems with Solo Q, the dissatisfaction with 1 (UND ONLY ONE!) game mode combined with all the PvE and WvW upgrades they’re touting and the admittance that SPvP has “Nothing super-exciting on the horizon”.

Btw, dreztina.
Wvw – http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAsYVkYmTAePAAAA0KAQ3DAAAAA-j0BBoLERjsBCiZPFRjtNoIasKbYqXER1WzFRrGA-w

Pvp – http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAsYVkYmTAePAAAA0KAQ3DAAAAA-TgAA1CnIQShkDJDSSksIB

I came up with this spec with 0 WvW knowledge, so perhaps its unattainable (but I’ve seen people recommending ruby orbs as a “cheap, easy” option for gear upgrades) or poorly built.

Assuming my WvW spec isn’t made up of impossible to get gear or very stupidly built, the WvW spec runs roughly 150 more power, 30 more precision, 150 more toughness, 115 more vitality, and 8% more crit damage. that’s a pretty tremendous difference.

Lopez.7369:

evilapprentice.6379:

Unfortunately, WvW is more influenced by PvE than PvP.

Without the automatic gear balance, WvW is just like every other gear treadmill game.

Most people in world vs. world are essentially wild animals. If you’re in the top 40 percentile in structured PvP, you could probably 1v5 the average player while wearing full greens.

I’ve noticed that as well.

I’ve watched alot of those “Watch me decimate people in WvW!” video’s, and they’re usually hilarious. Most of the players appear to have absolutely no idea what they’re doing. Just from my experience fighting other classes (2300 of my 2600 games are on thief), I’m convinced I can play them better than many of the actual players did in said fights.

dreztina.4820:

evilapprentice.6379:

It doesn’t matter how “great” the impact is, it’s there, and I’m uninterested. Others might feel differently, but that’s how I feel.

In addition, not strictly controlling the possible stat combinations can lead to crazy min-maxing, which isn’t as easy to balance as a limited set of options is.

The stat difference is almost nonexistent and citing balance as a concern when spvp is in the state it is is quite the joke. You don’t have to like wvw, but you should probably learn what you are talking about before acting like an authority on the matter.

I was expressing my opinion. I offered facts to support why I feel the way I do. If you thought I was attempting to act like an authority on the matter, you are incorrect.

As I already said, In the post that you quoted in fact, Almost nonexistent != Nonexistent.

Furthermore, ability/trait/etc balance is separate from stat access. I appreciate PvP’s limited options ensuring everyone has the same exact access to the same exact total stat pool via gear, and that there is a hard cap on how high each individual stat can get that is lower then it is in WvW/PvE. It’s not like we don’t see min-maxing in PvP, it’s just less severe than in WvW by design.

WvW is separate from PvP by Anets own design choices – PvP has gotten a number of PvP only ability splits to bring balance to that format, where the WvW skill is still equivelent to the PvE skill. That is a fact. It is my opinion that this, and the other facts I listed make WvW more akin to PvE than PvP.

There is a large discrepancy between the total stats you can get in PvP and those you can get in WvW (unless I missed a massive nerf to WvW, which while possible, seems unlikely). Though I am basing this on players listing their WvW setup/stats, so I suppose I could be incorrectly remembering things.

Kaizer.7135:

evilapprentice.6379:

dreztina.4820:

evilapprentice.6379:

Lopez.7369:

People still come to this game for PvP. They just play world vs. world.

Unfortunately, WvW is more influenced by PvE than PvP.

Without the automatic gear balance, WvW is just like every other gear treadmill game.

I don’t think you have ever played wvw.

No, I haven’t.

I’m basing my statement on 2 things.

A) Most “PvP” only splits are just that – WvW and PvE in one category, PvP in the other.
B) in WvW, your gear is non-standardized, like it is in PvP. I don’t want my access to gear to have any influence on whether or not I win.

Gear doesn’t have that great of an impact on your ability to win in WvW, unless you’re running White, Blue or Green gear. You probs wouldn’t notice it, I just noticed recently that my War was running some green Trinkets but I was still wrecking.

It doesn’t matter how “great” the impact is, it’s there, and I’m uninterested. Others might feel differently, but that’s how I feel.

In addition, not strictly controlling the possible stat combinations can lead to crazy min-maxing, which isn’t as easy to balance as a limited set of options is.

dreztina.4820:

evilapprentice.6379:

Lopez.7369:

People still come to this game for PvP. They just play world vs. world.

Unfortunately, WvW is more influenced by PvE than PvP.

Without the automatic gear balance, WvW is just like every other gear treadmill game.

I don’t think you have ever played wvw.

No, I haven’t.

I’m basing my statement on 2 things.

A) Most “PvP” only splits are just that – WvW and PvE in one category, PvP in the other.
B) in WvW, your gear is non-standardized, like it is in PvP. I don’t want my access to gear to have any influence on whether or not I win.

Lopez.7369:

People still come to this game for PvP. They just play world vs. world.

Unfortunately, WvW is more influenced by PvE than PvP.

Without the automatic gear balance, WvW is just like every other gear treadmill game.

…They could always just split skills between the 2, like they’ve done for a bunch of abilities/mechanics/etc so far…

But that would require effort, competence, passion for your product, and an understanding of your community. So we’re screwed.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/08/31/pax-prime-2013-guild-wars-2-prepares-to-blow-your-mind-all-o/

“Don’t make the mistake that ArenaNet is ignoring its PvP and WvW community, as that would be dumb and an Asura will take advantage of your mental weakness. “We want Guild Wars 2 to be the game people go to when they think of PvP,” Johanson said.

For PvP, while there’s nothing super-exciting on the horizon, the crew was happy with the additions made over the past year, including custom arenas and the big tournament that is taking place here at PAX. Looking forward, the team sees that many PvPers are desiring short- and medium-term goals, and the team will be working on giving them ways to achieve just that."

You have professionals who write, edit, and proofread these press releases, right? How did this one get out? The PvP community hates the current meta almost universally, you’ve got nothing big planned for PvP (after listing all the awesome kitten PvE and WvW are getting), but GW2 should still be “The game you go to for PvP”? Why? Because it’s the only one out there atm? That won’t last forever guys.

Wouldn’t it have been more satisfying to individually spit in every single tourney attendants face at PAX?

Amaterasu.6280:

There is a new balance patch already, its called – double tap to evade.

You’re right, it makes the game play very reactive to have to dodge passive effects.

Arrak.4092:

PAX is over, let’s go back to balancing this game.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Finally-the-news-we-ve-been-waiting-for/first#post2742914

Don’t count on it

The AoE kittenfest in graveyard was unwatchable. Constantly switching POV certainly didn’t help.

Khylo felt a little more watchable, but only in comparison to how silly the last round looked.

The commentary had to keep people informed on what was happening both on AND off screen because they had no control over which character they were viewing, and at times, we were watching an utter mess.

Its hard to tell, but it looks like the Anniversary Tourney players don’t have to deal with this lag.

I wonder why that is. It’s not fun when the already acknowledged second class citizens (PVPers) get split between the have’s and the have nots.

This is hard to watch.

Literally, hard to actually watch. The camera is too zoomed out, the team fights are a mess, and even the 1 on 1’s are jumpy. The fact that the camera keeps changing players also makes it hard to keep track, or even care.

I hope they clean this up in the future.

I’m surprised nobody has mentioned that your proposed change to shadow protector would be insane.

You would enable every stealth heavy GC spec out there to put 10 points into SA for perma protection, basically on demand – Just no, that’s silly.

Lets also note shadow protector would also allow you to use SR and Blinding powder as a 10s protection for nearby allies.

Geiir.7603:

I think it’s ok to have to spend some points into initiative regeneration. Initiative is such a powerful mechanic (when it’s managed right) that I think it’s fair. We’re able to spam abilities that’s really strong, and for those of us that want to do that we need more initiative and then have to spend some points in it.

Other professions have traits that affect cool downs on certain weapons. We’re lucky enough to have traits that affect all our weapon sets instead of one weapon type

All of those traits come with an added benefit attached to the weapon. Aside from Signet Use, none of our initiative based traits do anything other than affect initiative. In addition, I don’t think any other class has as much pressure for their reduced CD traits to be required for specs to function as well as they should.

Again, my suggestion isn’t to make initiative regen faster overall – assuming my suggestions were adopted, init regen for similiar specs would be exactly the same. I’m just saying, close the gap between Untraited init regen and heavily traited init regen a little bit, so thieves have more class defining traits other than “I can hit more buttons faster”

matjazmuhic.1649:

I am a thief. I see elementalist casting phoenix on me, it is kinda fast now but I still have time to react and I dodge. Ele tries to “ride the lightning” to me, I evade that. Ofcourse he does some auto attacks meanwhile which hurt but not as much as those skills would so I don’t evade. Here comes the fun part. Because I’m a thief I can evade more and I still have one or two evades left and if Ele continues to focus on me I can survive with that. <- This is what I call survivability. Not spaming dodges + FS/LS + dodges + pop signed for more endurance + FS/LS + dodges AND autoattack meanwhile if I reeealy have to.

And the only way the above scenario is going to work is if you hit really hard -

if you only have marginally more evades than any other class, your going to have 1 of two options
A) You’re not designed for the long fight. You have marginally more evades so you can deliver your high burst and drop your target. You are almost entirely stealth reliant for defense (and players kittening HATE stealth)
B) You need to have access to the survivability mechanics of every other class (Protection, strong regen, stability, blocks, immunes, etc etc etc).

You might remember point A, because it’s how thieves used to be – High risk, high reward, very high burst with low sustain. Players HATED it. They ceaselessly kitten ed and moaned about how fighting thieves was so unfun, they did too much damage, it wasn’t fair, etc etc etc…which is why thieves have been nerfed in a majority of the patches that have come out since launch. To compensate for this, Anet revamped S/D so thieves had a non-stealth survival option. Surprise Surprise, people hate that too.

Point B would turn thieves into a slightly different flavor of warrior – it would be boring, and remove a lot of uniqueness from the game.

Players also need to realize that just because a thief isn’t taking damage doesn’t mean they’re “Winning the fight” – those evades cost resources. When you’re fighting a warrior, his HP pool is his primary resource for surviving the fight. Maybe he’s got good regen with Signets/Adrenaline based health regen, lots of blocks, etc etc etc. Thieves main resource is evading/negating damage all together. If you get a warrior down to 25% before he stomps you, that is potentially the same as being stomped by a thief with 90% health who’s low on initaitive and blew most/all his CD’S. Both classes expended resources to fight you, it’s just more obvious with the warrior – if a second player rolled up on either of the classes, they’d be in trouble.

People just don’t like thieves. They’ll have to get over it.

Jumper.9482:

Stof.9584:

Jumper.9482:

A 10% dps nerf would be enough for me to shelf S/D, pick up D/P again, and never look back.
I wouldn’t mind it though, because D/P is actually a complete kit and more fun to play.

How do you feel S/D could be balanced purely as a set?

I am asking since a lot of top players felt it is too powerful and it was mainly your build that made the set spread in popularity immediately after Sword #3 was patched.

An aftercast buff on CnD, enabling TS to be used as a viable interrupt (at the same time buffing D/D). And/or revert the nerf to CnD and buff Tactical Strike damage.
And giving Dancing Dagger something extra. Torment (to help p/d condi as well) or a mini stun on the first hit when landed from behind the target.
This would go, in hand, with nerfing FS/LS dps by about 5-15%

I like poison (only on first target hit) more than Torment, as it helps all Dagger OH specs, rather than just P/D

Dual.8953:

I can see how the presents of an S/D thief in a game can block boon heavy classes from playing, and I want LS to still be a counter to boon users but not completely shut them down by it’s mere presence.
S/D used to be considered a respectable thief set. Now it’s joined the ranks of the “mindless spammers” in people’s minds. I get the inkling that most Spvp S/D users hardly ever even use Tactical Strike anymore.

I really could not give less of a kitten about other players perceptions of thief.
A) Why would I?
B) According to forum fighters, thief is broken in every single aspect. They deal too much damage, stealth too much, dodge too much, steal boons too much, are too hard to kill, get away too much, and so on and so on and so on. If you want to base your build on other idiots perceptions, by all means, be my guest and have fun standing around and getting 3 shot (because that’s what they want). I’ll continue to enjoy my class.

BTW, what kind of metric is “Hardly even useTactical strike Anymore?” There’s absolutely no qualification to that statement. Will using Tactical Strike at random times score me some hipster cred? 6 Init to do kitten damage for a lousy 1.5s daze is pointless, unless your breaking a Res/Stomp, interrupting a long cast time skill, or were luckily already in stealth when someone went to heal – you know, using it tactically. Since most S/D players aren’t running points in SA, why in gods name would they pepper in Tactical Strike randomly?

Dual.8953:

evilapprentice.6379:

Barock.7183:

evilapprentice.6379:

Barock.7183:

Evilek.5690:

Barock.7183:

like above post says the damage of auto attack is high enough to keep the build viable even with a flanking nerf

this is exactly why the damage has to be reduced with something like 50% but keep the initiative.
thief play should be situational you shouldn’t be able to kill anything while the best option is “almost” always the same key this is why normal attack should be a better option then flanking so we will only use it to dodge a critical attack like warrior stun or remove stability etc so i believe in the damage reduction but keep the initiative the builds are already initiative orientated so they can spam it.
if you reduce the damage players will not spec to spam it anymore and you get a viable versatile balanced play style.
correct me if i’m wrong :p

sorry for this one thief colleagues just got to be honest on this one to improve the over all game quality

I must laugh again

Reduce the power of S / D of only 10% and I guarantee that you will never play S/D Thief and all go play D/P and we see many new crying post on this forum.

so you are competely ok with the the state S/D is in atm?
at least try to get a solution here instead of barking everything off like Anet is going to cut your junk of in the next patch.

they will nerf this one day,if only to improve the play style.
all we can do is steer them in the right direction maybe 50% reduce is to much but together with a dancing dagger buff and a 30% dmg reduce it should be a viable weapon set.

Yeah, S/D is fine. There’s no need for a “solution” because there isn’t a problem, beyond your inability to learn how to counter an S/D thief. Go roll an S/D thief, learn the timing, and every time you get trucked (and you will), wonder to yourself “How did that happen?”, then mimic it.
Problem solved.

for a fact i am a R45 S/D thief with 1064 hours of thief play and even i think this needs a fix cus it’s so one sided

Go ahead and elaborate “cus it’s so one sided” then.

He’s saying because FS/LS has become the so powerful that there’s no reason not to spam it in all situations. You’re evading so much that it’s a waste of time to try to hit you, and the damage is just as good as auto attack (S/D’s former main damage dealer), and you steal 2 boons every stab. So you have S/D’s highest damage, defense and the ability to shut down boon users completely all in one spammable skill. It disgusts me that the weapon set that my favourite weaponset which I have used for well over 700 hours, has reduced itself to spamming the 3 skill to be effective at top level play.
It disgusts me that that 222222 thing people say about D/x thieves is actually true on S/D thieves with 333333.
My idea is to destroy that kind of play and bring it back to the S/D users making full use of their.

Spamming 3 with S/D is as exactly as effective as spamming 2 with Dagger MH. There are times when spam is the right way to go, but doing so universally and without good reason will get you destroyed.

You aren’t “always evading” if you’re spamming 3. In fact, you’re evading exactly half the time. FS does kitten damage, the big hit is the one where your open for .5s as you prepare the swing. If you can’t learn simple timing, then crying on the boards wont help you.

As a quick sidenote, I rolled a warrior and went Hammer – M/S for funsies. In my very first fight with an S/D thief, I couldn’t hit him (Not that he did anywhere near the amount of damage he needed to drop me, mind you, but I couldn’t hit him). On the second fight, when I was more used to skill cast times, I batted him all around the screen like a pinball. How? Because I’ve been playing an S/D thief for months. I knew Exactly what the thief was going to do, and when he was going to do it, I just needed a little more experience with Warriors cast times. It’s hilariously easy to time with just a little practice. Worst case scenario, He’s spamming dodges all over the place, hitting me with FS (Which hits for kitten, btw) and only FS, because every time he even thought about being near me and not evading, he caught a hammer or mace in the face.

Let’s also note that Double S/D is a mostly dead spec – it doesn’t have any poison (which is brutal in current meta, with all the passive regen people are rolling with), can’t contribute to team fights, and gets shredded by AoE every second they aren’t evading with FS.

Nobody is spamming 3 and “effective at top play”. The people crying about Double S/D 3 spam are Hot Join hero’s, where any crap spec can work because some people are awful

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

This doesn’t really matter to me since Mug is the only useful major in that set. Even if you change it to that, it’s not good enough to take Mug’s slot.

Might give thieves something to slot at 20 point into DA when not running a venom spec. Also, there’s no harm in planning for the future… maybe one day in 4-5 years thief traits wont be so cut and dry, and options might open up.

I don’t know because you either replace Mug or replace a Master slot to have both (which not going to happen since I personally use Combined Training).

Even if they improve the existing one or introduce a new one, I still cannot picture not taking Mug, unless instead, they made Mug a crappy trait. Even in its mediocre state, it’s still the best in slot.

Yeah, but it’s not like Combined training is a “Good” trait, it’s just the best out of a pile of crap.

Out of 7 weaponsets,
Shbow doesn’t qualify
D/D and P/D’s dual skills are condition based
P/P is a messed up set (though once eventually fixed, combined training has potential to work with P/P)

So, it’s a trait that at best can help a single skill on 3 out of 7 weaponsets…and even then, its 5% more damage, for a master level trait. Personally, I think 50% more damage to downed targets would be more useful for those times you’re forced to body cleave/DPS a downed target to slow/prevent a res. Perhaps the 2 could be rolled together, to make the trait more viable and universally applicable.

Barock.7183:

evilapprentice.6379:

Barock.7183:

Evilek.5690:

Barock.7183:

like above post says the damage of auto attack is high enough to keep the build viable even with a flanking nerf

this is exactly why the damage has to be reduced with something like 50% but keep the initiative.
thief play should be situational you shouldn’t be able to kill anything while the best option is “almost” always the same key this is why normal attack should be a better option then flanking so we will only use it to dodge a critical attack like warrior stun or remove stability etc so i believe in the damage reduction but keep the initiative the builds are already initiative orientated so they can spam it.
if you reduce the damage players will not spec to spam it anymore and you get a viable versatile balanced play style.
correct me if i’m wrong :p

sorry for this one thief colleagues just got to be honest on this one to improve the over all game quality

I must laugh again

Reduce the power of S / D of only 10% and I guarantee that you will never play S/D Thief and all go play D/P and we see many new crying post on this forum.

so you are competely ok with the the state S/D is in atm?
at least try to get a solution here instead of barking everything off like Anet is going to cut your junk of in the next patch.

they will nerf this one day,if only to improve the play style.
all we can do is steer them in the right direction maybe 50% reduce is to much but together with a dancing dagger buff and a 30% dmg reduce it should be a viable weapon set.

Yeah, S/D is fine. There’s no need for a “solution” because there isn’t a problem, beyond your inability to learn how to counter an S/D thief. Go roll an S/D thief, learn the timing, and every time you get trucked (and you will), wonder to yourself “How did that happen?”, then mimic it.
Problem solved.

for a fact i am a R45 S/D thief with 1064 hours of thief play and even i think this needs a fix cus it’s so one sided

Go ahead and elaborate “cus it’s so one sided” then.

flo.2048:

Evilek.5690:

Dual.8953:

Truth be told I’m not the biggest PvPer by a long shot, but I’ve been using S/D since day one and would like to give some thoughts onto how to bring S/D more in line.

I’ll start with the biggy. Larcenous Strike. This skill has it all, power, utility, and defense. It’s become an all purpose skill that can win a battle with little effort. The skill shouldn’t bring both damage and utility to the battle. I propose they nerf it’s damage by 50-75%, increase it’s cost to 4-5 init (making it have a grand total of 7 to 8 init cost), shorten the amount of time you have to use it a touch, and increase the boons stolen to 3 possibly. Maybe give it a flashier tell as well.

In return they could perhaps increase the sword auto-attack’s overall damage by 5-10%, make dancing dagger inflict torment, and increase the daze on tactical strike a smidge.

I feel this’d make larcenous strike more risky to use forcing s/d users to make full use of their set, hopefully while still keeping them a viable threat. If it proves too harsh, buff something other then larcenous strike.

Must kidding ? 8 initiative is 66%, with trait 55% total Thief initiative.
FS+LS have same DPS as autoattack and you want to reduce 50-75% DMG lol ?.

How many hours do you have played a thief, If you can write such a nonsense ? 10 ? 20 ?

One hour is enough to notice that S/D thief is overpowered. Reduce 50-75% is too much but this skill need to be nerfed. You should not be able to dodge, deal damage (3-4k per skill) and steal boons.
Maybe, devs have to increase initiative of the first skill (Flanking strike I think) from 3 to 4 or reduce the damage by 15% at least if initiative is not increased.

This game need to be more skilled… like helseth said on his stream http://www.twitch.tv/helsethgw2/c/2826888

Your numbers are made up – stop spreading Misinformation
The listed damage for an FS is 1356 under the following conditions
-30 points in DA
-25 stacks of might
-25 stacks of bloodlust
-Zerkers ammy and gem (or any with max power)
-Assassins sig
-Sigil of force.
-Target at 2000 armor
-Ogre runes

So yeah, I guess if you ever find yourself fighting a GC while you’ve got every single available power buff on, you might find a way to get FS to crit in the 3-4k range (if you satisfy some further conditional Damage buffs). Even getting LS to crit (thats CRIT, not HIT, an important clarification) in that range requires a complete Glass Setup against a glassy target.

If you’re going to try and make a point, please realize people can and will fact check you – you obviously have no idea what you’re talking about, so we’re just going to go ahead and discount your opinion.

Barock.7183:

Evilek.5690:

Barock.7183:

like above post says the damage of auto attack is high enough to keep the build viable even with a flanking nerf

this is exactly why the damage has to be reduced with something like 50% but keep the initiative.
thief play should be situational you shouldn’t be able to kill anything while the best option is “almost” always the same key this is why normal attack should be a better option then flanking so we will only use it to dodge a critical attack like warrior stun or remove stability etc so i believe in the damage reduction but keep the initiative the builds are already initiative orientated so they can spam it.
if you reduce the damage players will not spec to spam it anymore and you get a viable versatile balanced play style.
correct me if i’m wrong :p

sorry for this one thief colleagues just got to be honest on this one to improve the over all game quality

I must laugh again

Reduce the power of S / D of only 10% and I guarantee that you will never play S/D Thief and all go play D/P and we see many new crying post on this forum.

so you are competely ok with the the state S/D is in atm?
at least try to get a solution here instead of barking everything off like Anet is going to cut your junk of in the next patch.

they will nerf this one day,if only to improve the play style.
all we can do is steer them in the right direction maybe 50% reduce is to much but together with a dancing dagger buff and a 30% dmg reduce it should be a viable weapon set.

Yeah, S/D is fine. There’s no need for a “solution” because there isn’t a problem, beyond your inability to learn how to counter an S/D thief. Go roll an S/D thief, learn the timing, and every time you get trucked (and you will), wonder to yourself “How did that happen?”, then mimic it.

Problem solved.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

This doesn’t really matter to me since Mug is the only useful major in that set. Even if you change it to that, it’s not good enough to take Mug’s slot.

Might give thieves something to slot at 20 point into DA when not running a venom spec. Also, there’s no harm in planning for the future… maybe one day in 4-5 years thief traits wont be so cut and dry, and options might open up.

Jakare.6807:

I think 50% extra damage could end up being way overpowered. D/d thieves with a full zerk set up could essentially insta stomp someone with a cloak and dagger, mug, backstab combo.

Not really…

50% is 50% – are you telling me that combo currently does 66% of someone’s down state health bar? Maybe on GC’s…maybe.

Also, this isn’t November 2012, so the chances someone runs a CnD ->Steal->Mug (which can’t crit anymore, remember)->backstab is minimal at best (I’d be surprised if that player downed someone). Even if it were 2012, downing someone by blowing your entire Burst combo seems like a balanced tradeoff, IMO – you just put your burst combo on 35s CD, which is pretty big.

Edit – I’m thinking PvP, not WvW, so maybe some of what I’ve said is inaccurate (I Don’t WvW)

ghettogenius.9174:

This skill gets a lot of hate due to the past damage decrease but I still use it a lot on my S/D build to slow down runners. Hate to say it but crippled AND poison sounds like too much. Not many skills apply multiple conditions. Just fix the cripple duration and you’ll see this become much more useful.

1200 range is not happening as it would be greater than the shortbow range. On a side note I think they should add a grandmaster trait that increases shortbow range to 1200.

Poison only affects the first target – it’s to help Dagger OH compete with Pistol OH, which has alot more general utility than Dagger OH.

Regardless, it needs a velocity increase – if you’re hitting runners with DD, its because they haven’t learned moving 1 step to the left or right while the dagger is incoming is enough to make it miss.

Black Cat.1024:

I’d switch the poison for torment, but it sounds cool
Don’t expect the 1200 range though, not going to happen..

Torment is only good for condition setups.

Poison is good for both specs, and it’s something Dagger offhand could use (since Pistol OH has Headshot for interrupting heals, it’d be Nice if Dagger OH had something to bring it up to par)

So this is short, sweet, and rather specific.

I think they should change the DA trait “Back fighting” to “Increases damage done to downed players by 50%”.

Thieves aren’t warriors – they can’t go in and eat a bunch of AoE while using HB’s to delay/stop a res. Thieves don’t get stability, and stealth stomping can cause you to lose the point.

I think allowing thieves to do better damage against down players (when they slot a trait), would be a nice solution and help non-stealth thieves have a bit more of a role in team fights.

and A-kittenING-GAIN

I’m getting massively kittening sick of this.

Acknowledge the kittening problem, and kittening fix it.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

personaly i don’t have any problems with initiative, and i do not use any utility’ or traits that boost initiative. You might need those traits on popular P/D build if you spam black powder.

Mind sharing your setup?
Also, I believe you meant D/P.

yes D/P is heavy initiative user, i’ve misspelled.
I use D/D // Shortbow . 3 x DB or 2 x cnd +BS + HS are enough for 1 initiative pool, since thief is ment to do burst damage, not constant damage
on shortbow 3x clusters +2 disable shot are also enough betwen autoattacks

What you just described isn’t going to kill 95% of players, assuming that every single ability you used hit. What If they dodge/block/immune/blind you?

What do you do after that? Run away? I mean, what else could you do, you’re out of Init!

This isn’t mean to be offensive, but I’m getting the impression you don’t really know what you’re talking about.

well now i have 2 choices :
1. yes sir, i don’t have any choices , i die against everybody , when my initiative pool is empty = i am dead.
2. i could start to explain , how to play thief, when to use autoattack , when to burst , and when to use shadow refuge or other defensive utility’s , how to adapt against enemy (diferent play style against more classes and more builds)
because version 2 is too long, and might bring another question like “and then ?” i will pick version 1. No initiative = i run or i die

Like I said, share your setup. Go to gw2skills.net/editor/en , if you wouldn’t mind, and post your spec. I just can’t think of a spec with 0 traits or utilities that affect init regen that wouldn’t suffer heavily from 1 or 2 well times dodges, and I’m eager to see how you’ve overcome this issue.

You really taking him/her seriously even after posting this?

I use D/D // Shortbow . 3 x DB or 2 x cnd +BS + HS are enough for 1 initiative pool, since thief is ment to do burst damage, not constant damage

That’s a dead give away.

I’ve been overly dismissive in the past, and at times it hasn’t worked out for me. I’d rather give people the benefit of the doubt, even when it seems obvious that I probably shouldn’t.

Best case scenario, I’ve got more proof for my point and maybe I’ve helped him refine his spec/playstyle some. Worst case scenario, at least I wasn’t a kitten about it.

Well, suit yourself, but the post is a good indication that this will lead nowhere. The build is so 2012 still trying to pull off a burst that the build no longer have. Nevertheless good luck.

Ah, How I wish that was the case – He’s running a hybrid-ish spec with ~2900power…

Bump, because its still happening, and I’m expecting an explanation at this point.

Rayya.2591:

@evilapprentice
i saw your point, and yes on first sight it looks great
however oportunist is conditioned – on critical – so thief vs thief, this trait might not help you very much.
regarding : hidden thief vs infused with shadows .
Infused – might be better on your playstyle, however i use a lot autochain, and rely on bursts in middle of fight.
I cannot count , how many times i’ve won an 1 vs 1 cause BP or steal to turn the advantage of the fight (i was 15% hp , enemy 40% – 60% chasing me, steal -backstab auto or HS).
you mention 2 sec stealth every 35 seconds, but you should consider that is no pre-cast time for this skill, it cure an condition and the most important (is nearly untraceable , compared with rest of stealth (CnD / Bp+HS , shadow refuge /blinding powder they all got animations) With 2 enemy’s arround you can do blind steal ( no target) target enemy 1 or target enemy 2. i consider hidden thief 1 of the best traits ingame,

The effectiveness of Oppurtunist isn’t in question – I’m asking why it even needs to be there. The point is to tweak init regen so thieves don’t need so many traits (minor and major) to get what they need.

You can list all the times Hidden thief did you right, and it doesn’t matter. All I have to say is that the fight would have been even easier with Infusion, and while that’s not true in every single scenario, it’s true generally, and in the majority of times. All those times hidden thief turned the fight around? You probably would have just been outright winning them if you could spend your initiative more aggressively thanks to Infusion.

I’m glad you like hidden thief, but its still demonstrably less effective than infusion is in the vast majority of situations you’re going to encounter in PvP.

Rayya.2591:

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

personaly i don’t have any problems with initiative, and i do not use any utility’ or traits that boost initiative. You might need those traits on popular P/D build if you spam black powder.

Mind sharing your setup?
Also, I believe you meant D/P.

yes D/P is heavy initiative user, i’ve misspelled.
I use D/D // Shortbow . 3 x DB or 2 x cnd +BS + HS are enough for 1 initiative pool, since thief is ment to do burst damage, not constant damage
on shortbow 3x clusters +2 disable shot are also enough betwen autoattacks

What you just described isn’t going to kill 95% of players, assuming that every single ability you used hit. What If they dodge/block/immune/blind you?

What do you do after that? Run away? I mean, what else could you do, you’re out of Init!

This isn’t mean to be offensive, but I’m getting the impression you don’t really know what you’re talking about.

well now i have 2 choices :
1. yes sir, i don’t have any choices , i die against everybody , when my initiative pool is empty = i am dead.
2. i could start to explain , how to play thief, when to use autoattack , when to burst , and when to use shadow refuge or other defensive utility’s , how to adapt against enemy (diferent play style against more classes and more builds)
because version 2 is too long, and might bring another question like “and then ?” i will pick version 1. No initiative = i run or i die

Like I said, share your setup. Go to gw2skills.net/editor/en , if you wouldn’t mind, and post your spec. I just can’t think of a spec with 0 traits or utilities that affect init regen that wouldn’t suffer heavily from 1 or 2 well times dodges, and I’m eager to see how you’ve overcome this issue.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAoYFlUmaPHfS6cCZ7xOVh8E3DnCpaquCYFA-TsAg0CtIqRVjrGTNyas1MIY9x0CA
Here you go :
- 4 stealth “utility” – steal / HiS / SR / BP
-2 blink “utility” – steal / shadowstep
-3 “panic” buttons -BP / Steal / Shadowstep
-good condition removal
some evades on weapon skills.
after few CnD’s or Shadow Refuge , you can mentain 10-12 might stacks, multiple stealth utility’s will allow you to ( initiative free backstabs ) .
Shortbow can go both ways , offensive and defensive , disable shot +autoattacks can keep you in combat when your utility’s are on cooldown (don’t need to run or die)
DB (D/D ) is good to dodge an mesmer’s shatter or BF /warrior’s chain when you are imobilized and utility’s are on cooldown
autoattack chain (D/D) is good against light armor users ( who use autoatack ? -try it against GC light amor users betwen an HS and CnD)
I will not call it L2P , but if you trade 1 or 2 major traits for init regen, and 1 utility, then you run on combo chain, wich can be kittened easy countered.

But what do i know , imo you should listen to xxxsirvincentxxx cause that’s a dead give
away

A) You’ve got opportunist in your build. I know you’re thinking “But I can’t not take it, I want 30CS”, but that’s part of my point – if init regen was tweaked in some way, maybe we could get more interesting minor traits then “Gain more Init when X”
B) Replace Hidden Thief with Infusion of shadow and your spec just got demonstrably better. If we ignore the fact that Hidden thief is buggy (You’ll steal into a revealed if you’ve shot a bow shot, were autoattacking and your timing is off, or if the server is just feeling kitten y), 1 free 2 second stealth every 35s doesn’t compare to 2 init back on stealth – Infusion will grant 2 of your utilities initiative regen in addition to the effects you’re already gaining from those utilities, your heal will regenerate 2 init, and it’ll cut the cost of successful CnD’s by 33%. You’re not running a Max power/crit GC spec, so stealth on steal offers you almost nothing in comparison to how much more flexible your spec would be with Infusion of shadow. If you ran infusion of shadow, you could afford to be much more aggressive in the way you spend Init.

And there’s the rub – Infusion of shadow is just a provably better trait for your spec in the vast majority of cases. I’m sure you’ll say “But I do great with my current spec, I like it!”, but that doesn’t change the fact that the init regen trait is clearly superior to what you have slotted now, and that’s a problem IMO.

Sir Kaboomski.1508:

Forz.1725:

Sir Kaboomski.1508:

Recently I swapped the “regain initiative faster while in stealth” for the “gain 2 stacks of might when using a skill that stealths you” trait and after about half an hour I wasn’t having problems with the lack of initiative gain.

The trait that gives might stacks is a minor trait after specing 25 points into the SA tree, you can’t swap it, so I am not sure what you are talking about here.

Yeah sorry… I am at work while I am typing this (was on the phone).. I had a feeling I got that wrong lol. I swapped that trait out for something, but since you pointed that out I couldn’t remember what for lol. (at the same time I went from 0/30/15/25/0 to 0/30/30/10/0 so I was confused). Now that I am looking at the wiki – My correct statement is I swapped Patience for Shadow’s Embrace.

I wasn’t aware anyone used Patience.

That’s not me being a prick, but isn’t it sort of useless? I can’t recall if it was bugged, or the boosted regen was so minor that 2 init on stealth was considered almost always better.

There’s a reason everyone runs Infusion of Shadow over Patience, I just can’t remember the specific reason why.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

personaly i don’t have any problems with initiative, and i do not use any utility’ or traits that boost initiative. You might need those traits on popular P/D build if you spam black powder.

Mind sharing your setup?
Also, I believe you meant D/P.

yes D/P is heavy initiative user, i’ve misspelled.
I use D/D // Shortbow . 3 x DB or 2 x cnd +BS + HS are enough for 1 initiative pool, since thief is ment to do burst damage, not constant damage
on shortbow 3x clusters +2 disable shot are also enough betwen autoattacks

What you just described isn’t going to kill 95% of players, assuming that every single ability you used hit. What If they dodge/block/immune/blind you?

What do you do after that? Run away? I mean, what else could you do, you’re out of Init!

This isn’t mean to be offensive, but I’m getting the impression you don’t really know what you’re talking about.

well now i have 2 choices :
1. yes sir, i don’t have any choices , i die against everybody , when my initiative pool is empty = i am dead.
2. i could start to explain , how to play thief, when to use autoattack , when to burst , and when to use shadow refuge or other defensive utility’s , how to adapt against enemy (diferent play style against more classes and more builds)
because version 2 is too long, and might bring another question like “and then ?” i will pick version 1. No initiative = i run or i die

Like I said, share your setup. Go to gw2skills.net/editor/en , if you wouldn’t mind, and post your spec. I just can’t think of a spec with 0 traits or utilities that affect init regen that wouldn’t suffer heavily from 1 or 2 well times dodges, and I’m eager to see how you’ve overcome this issue.

You really taking him/her seriously even after posting this?

I use D/D // Shortbow . 3 x DB or 2 x cnd +BS + HS are enough for 1 initiative pool, since thief is ment to do burst damage, not constant damage

That’s a dead give away.

I’ve been overly dismissive in the past, and at times it hasn’t worked out for me. I’d rather give people the benefit of the doubt, even when it seems obvious that I probably shouldn’t.

Best case scenario, I’ve got more proof for my point and maybe I’ve helped him refine his spec/playstyle some. Worst case scenario, at least I wasn’t a kitten about it.

Rayya.2591:

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

personaly i don’t have any problems with initiative, and i do not use any utility’ or traits that boost initiative. You might need those traits on popular P/D build if you spam black powder.

Mind sharing your setup?
Also, I believe you meant D/P.

yes D/P is heavy initiative user, i’ve misspelled.
I use D/D // Shortbow . 3 x DB or 2 x cnd +BS + HS are enough for 1 initiative pool, since thief is ment to do burst damage, not constant damage
on shortbow 3x clusters +2 disable shot are also enough betwen autoattacks

What you just described isn’t going to kill 95% of players, assuming that every single ability you used hit. What If they dodge/block/immune/blind you?

What do you do after that? Run away? I mean, what else could you do, you’re out of Init!

This isn’t mean to be offensive, but I’m getting the impression you don’t really know what you’re talking about.

well now i have 2 choices :
1. yes sir, i don’t have any choices , i die against everybody , when my initiative pool is empty = i am dead.
2. i could start to explain , how to play thief, when to use autoattack , when to burst , and when to use shadow refuge or other defensive utility’s , how to adapt against enemy (diferent play style against more classes and more builds)
because version 2 is too long, and might bring another question like “and then ?” i will pick version 1. No initiative = i run or i die

Like I said, share your setup. Go to gw2skills.net/editor/en , if you wouldn’t mind, and post your spec. I just can’t think of a spec with 0 traits or utilities that affect init regen that wouldn’t suffer heavily from 1 or 2 well times dodges, and I’m eager to see how you’ve overcome this issue.

Coloxeus.3480:

evilapprentice.6379:

Coloxeus.3480:

Lokheit.7943:

I keep hearing how the meta is full of unkillable “condi bunkers” from every profession and that’s making things harder… yet I haven’t noticed it much :S

When I see that kind of opponent I tend to eat him for breakfast (and I’m built for support), but I guess it’s related to me being P/D with loads of Poison too so most times I never even notice that 4K armor as my damage is done through conditions and sometimes leeching armor ignoring damage through venoms (and I don’t even use caltrops, just P/D in a venom sharer setup) and I cancel a great chunk of their heals with poison (starting a fight with steal traited for poison and Spider Venom keeps it up a huge lot of time).

It has merit that you didn’t want to change your build and still managed to find a way to defeat him (I also refuse to change my build), but the Thief has multiple ways to eat those guys alive. Thief doesn’t need to be a zerker all the time, from my experience we can excel at conditions and at team support despite how many players sniff at that idea.

i changed my build to 10/30/0/30/0 with Mug trait and i can poison him everytime i use steal 5 trait on deadly arts. my previous build is 0/30/0/30/10 no poison at all

I’m not sure of the warrior’s build, but isn’t he running with Cleansing Ire? If so, it should take him about 2 seconds to realize that saving his burst for after your steal is the way to go. Even if he doesn’t have cleansing ire, 12 seconds of poison every 35s is going to help, but not change the game here.

You were not impressed by SHbow’s damage in an earlier post, but you’re not taking Shbow for its damage. You’re taking it for Poison and Weakness. Choking Gas + Cluster bomb, and you can use disabling shot to put cripple on him as a cover condition if need be – Now you’ve got 4 conditions on him (Poison, weakness, bleed, cripple), though the cripple is admittedly short-lived. You can also use Whirling axe in Choking gas to stack up some extra poison.

Also, as a side note – when I ran Jumpers double S/D, I switched Inf Sig for Assassins Sig and also ran 10 DA over 10 Trickery – the difference 280 total power makes is tremendous. You might also consider switching Sigil of Accuracy for Force, and if it fits your playstyle, side strikes for Signets of Power. A bit less init regen, but then again you’re hitting hard enough to not always need all that init for additional FS/LS

u wanna try him with your S/D and shortbow? are u in N/A server? i can pm him for duels. i wanna record the fight though its really hard to explain without experiencing his infinite insane heals. if i switched to shortbow just for poison and some conditions, i need to w8 for 10secs weap swap cooldowns before am able to switch to S/D for burst. so in this 10secs period do u think i can bring his HP down using shortbow+ poison? or lets say u landed critical hits cluster bomb for 1.5k – 1.8k ish

He’s running a bunker that isn’t based on boons (Which is what S/D is designed to counter), so the fights going to be a PITA regardless.

Think of it this way – SHbow brings with it constant poison. Poison is a 33% nerf to his healing, regardless of his armor – he’s just healing 33% less. That’s a big advantage, since you’re running Direct Damage and his spec is designed to counter direct damage – that poison is getting around his insane armor, which is one of the biggest advantages he has over you. Weakness will reduce his ability to evade your attacks.

I’m not saying “Duh, run S/D-SHbow and you’ll auto win”, just that reducing his insane heals should be your priority, and Shbow brings that.

Forz.1725:

Sir Kaboomski.1508:

Recently I swapped the “regain initiative faster while in stealth” for the “gain 2 stacks of might when using a skill that stealths you” trait and after about half an hour I wasn’t having problems with the lack of initiative gain.

The trait that gives might stacks is a minor trait after specing 25 points into the SA tree, you can’t swap it, so I am not sure what you are talking about here.

Overall I did agree with the rest of your post, though. If I am playing D/P, I feel it is absolutely necessary to take the +2 initiative on stealth.

To the OP: I think that our initiative regeneration is fine. All of our trait trees have relatively easy to get initiative regeneration, except deadly arts, and we really only have 2 heavy initiative spending weapon sets – S/D and D/P (I guess P/P but that needs a massive rework in my opinion.) I don’t think that we should be able to constantly spam skills and turn this class into a truly brain dead class, that people so often think that we are.

In our current stage, I like that we have to manage our initiative. Sure we need some minor tweaks, but I don’t think initiative regeneration is one of them.

But that’s not my point. My point isn’t “Initiative regen traits are so hard to get”, it’s that they’re necessary, and they shouldn’t be. In my post, I specifically mentioned I’m not asking for faster initiative regen overall, just a smaller gap between untraited Init regen and heavily traited regen.

I would prefer traits that allowed me to define my build a bit more, rather than just a blanket init regen thing.

Rayya.2591:

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

personaly i don’t have any problems with initiative, and i do not use any utility’ or traits that boost initiative. You might need those traits on popular P/D build if you spam black powder.

Mind sharing your setup?
Also, I believe you meant D/P.

yes D/P is heavy initiative user, i’ve misspelled.
I use D/D // Shortbow . 3 x DB or 2 x cnd +BS + HS are enough for 1 initiative pool, since thief is ment to do burst damage, not constant damage
on shortbow 3x clusters +2 disable shot are also enough betwen autoattacks

What you just described isn’t going to kill 95% of players, assuming that every single ability you used hit. What If they dodge/block/immune/blind you?

What do you do after that? Run away? I mean, what else could you do, you’re out of Init!

This isn’t mean to be offensive, but I’m getting the impression you don’t really know what you’re talking about.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

What I’d like to see is a departure from this – boost base initiative regen, so thieves can actually be effective without relying on initiative regeneration traits. Then tweak the init regen traits to balance things out (“tweak” in this case means “reduce” – I’m not asking for faster initiative regen, just less of an extreme between the speed of traited and untraited init regen), and add secondary effects like every other class has. The secondary effects can be tied to specific weapons (just like every other class) to help limit them and define play styles.

The initiative system as it is is fine IMO — but what I rather see is more Init-discount and Init-refunds. I believe that adding more discount/refund is better than changing values in the init regen since it would be easier to balance and tweak skills/traits in the future.

The main issue here is Anet needs to sit down and really study the Thief profession so that they can really evaluate it and give it the changes it needs. So far, we hardly even get a sincere glimpse instead it’s often an angry glare.

That mechanic sounds fine to me as well – Better in some cases, because it can be set up to reward skillful play. I’d like to see traits being more spec-defining, rather than “you can hit more skills now before you need to take a break”.