Guild Wars 2

Sir Vincent III.1286:

-words-

You use the phrase “On demand” the way most people I’ve ever interacted with would use “available”. IMO, “On Demand” conjures the image of “This ability is always immediately available to me”

You don’t have Daze or Blind “On Demand” – you have it available. You can CnD, then fulfill the positional requirements.

You don’t have evade “On Demand” – you potentially have it available. If you’ve used FS to evade something, you’ve got 5 seconds/.5s LS casting time +2 init before you can use FS to evade again. Same goes for LS boon steal – It’s available, but not on demand

This goes for nearly every situation in which you described an ability as “On Demand” – You meant potentially available, which is correct.

Walker.3056:

Your use of the words on demand is just wrong here buddy…

An understatement, to say the least.

-Condition removal ( u need to waste 5 initiative to remove 1 cond)

or a separate scenario, 2 init and a disengage, which could be beneficial to your target if you’re further than 600 away when you SR back.

-Evade on demand ( IS evade is crap whats good on evades build is the 15 trait in Trickery + sig of agility, any thief build can use that)

If you FS, you can’t FS again for 5s/until you cast LS, so not exactly “on demand”

-Cripple on demand (any off hand dagger thief or has it.)

-Stealth on demand (LOL CnD is stealth on demand? only if ur target is a dummy, for example d/p get stealth much easier depending on the build)

-Boon strip on demand ( 5 initiative 2 boons IF people cant dodge, Bountyfull thief trait or whatever its called is a much more reliable boon strip skill)

Again, “On demand” is a very liberal use of the term, because you have to FS first.

- Daze on demand (LMAO… the dazze from S/D comes from stealth CnD 6 init + a backstab… yea.. totaly on demand. pistol off hand much better.)

So if anyone is casting churning earth or going for a stomp/res (without stability, mind you), you’re covered. Headshot is an “On demand” Daze – Tac strike is a handy daze for long casting time skills and stomp/resses when you target doesn’t have stability.

- Blind on demand (LMAO again… pistol off hand or d/p skill 3 come on you are not even trying to think here…)

Let’s not forget the 4s CD on it as well (due to revealed)

-It has the highest auto-attack damage, albeit slow, it’s high. (Dagger AUTO attack chain got higher and faster DPS the only thing is thats single target, if u dont belive go and test it.)

…just to name the reasons I can think of from the top of my head. (try again plz)

A D/P set can have access to all those stuffs but the cripple, and on many of those aspects its much easier and better than a S/D set.

Your conclusion on the other hand great, ANet should really give us attention, think about any changes before doing it and not just listen to so many crys out there.

I too agree with the conclusion, it’s just that Vincent’s arguments for how S/D plays makes it sound like they can do anything they want, instantly, at the press of a button.

Daecollo.9578:

Kolly.9872:

Daecollo.9578:

Kolly.9872:

Healing Signet

everything else is far behind this one!!

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Troll_Unguent

still healing signet outlast this one
We’re discussing of the most OP skill right? On the second spot I’ll place http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Spring

Troll Unguent Heals the Ranger and his Pet. HS just heals the Warrior.

Troll Unguent can be neutered by a well timed poison, reducing the entirety of the heal. The current warrior specs seem to mostly include cleansing Ire, zerker stance, and signet of stamina is still an option – it’s literally impossible to keep poison on some warrior builds for the entirety of a fight (partly due to low CD condition removal, and partly due to warrior staying power), and that’s using choking gas on a point the warrior is sitting on.

That being said, Healing signet itself doesn’t seem OP – the combination of healing signet, Adrenal health, Cleansing ire and other great condition removal/prevention in builds that can bide their time with blocks and long duration CC seems a little much.

Assassin X.8573:

evilapprentice.6379:

Assassin X.8573:

Personally I would rather see perma stealth stance like ability. Activate it you are invisible. Attack or deactivate triggers a 5-15 second cool down but you cannot enter stealth until you leave combat (when you are able to swap utilities). Reduce movement speed while invisible to 75% of normal run speed. Trait can increase stealthed movement by 50% to a max of perma 33% ims while invisible. Move this trait to grandmaster.

This would solve everyone’s problems.

You’re talking about re-working stealth in its entirety. That’s just not feasible. One of the major points of my suggestion is it would be simple to implement, does not change the current power level of stealth and stealth attacks, and would keep both sides happy.

yes but my system is better. and its not that much of a rework. all it would really adjust is timers.

Better is a matter of opinion – I disagree, but that doesn’t really matter. You wouldn’t just need to re-adjust timers – you’d need to look at every single steatlh related trait, skill or attack and adjust it to these new timers. They’re all designed for short duration stealth with short revealed timers and no speed penalty. Make no mistake, you’re talking about completely redesigning stealth. You’re talking about completely changing the way thief plays. That’s a tremendous overhaul compared to a “Detected” debuff that makes you visible while in stealth.

Yeah sure, in team fights all players should stay target-retarget the thief anytime he ports. You know porting makes you lose target, do you ?

Nope, that’s wrong – Source: S/D thief I fought last night who I didn’t lose target on once, even though he used teleports like crazy. Also, every class equipping a ranged weapon who’s ever perfectly tracked me weapon blazing after I teleported back, because you know, target didn’t drop. See what I meant about not really knowing how S/D works?

This is a L2P issue on YOUR side. If you make your opponent dodge your LS is because your attack pattern is simple and you can be predicted.

If you dodge and fake attacks, your LS will be much more realiably landed.

LS and CS have the exact same animation – you have exactly 1 animation to watch for and dodge. It literally couldn’t be simpler. Yes, you can use Inf strike to force a hit, but now you’re spending 8-10 Init per landed LS (assuming you’re not blinded/interrupted mid cast), so we’re not talking spammable reliability here.

S/D requires tons of skill to be played effectively, and your comment about " just dodge it" shows clearly that there are not so many thieves using it effectively BUT still they ’re a threat, and this is clearly wrong.

Just dodge LS/CS is what I said – it’s easy to soft counter a weaponset when only 2 of the skills (each with pee-requisites) actually need to be dodged, because the damage on all of the other swings is so low.

And anyway, S/D thiefs is one of the most damaging sustained DPS professions, with the added capability to go snowballing low HP/armor professions like nothing else in this game.

Gonna need some proof on that. “Purple is better than Green! It’s a fact, and you’re a moron if you think otherwise”. See how easy it is to just say stuff and pretend like anyone who doesn’t agree with me is mentally deficient?

Saying S/D thieves don’t do good damage is silly, ridicolously silly.

I didn’t say they didn’t do good damage – I specifically said they do good damage when with any other weaponset, their setup would be considered burst. You take a thief with GC stats and use S/D and all of sudden you’re doing solid sustain, where as a D/P thief would be doing burst damage. Sustain damage means you have plenty of time to counter.

With the difference that it can be spammed.
Inf arrow is not an issue since shortbow is not an effective pressure weapon set, while clusterbombing you’re extremely vulnerable.

Inf strike allows you to port in Z-Axis in all maps: windows at clocktower ( from the floor) , ledges on Foefire, ledges on Henge at MANY MANY more that it’s silly even to list them all.

You can Z axis port when you could have walked there using the listed range of the skill itself. This is not broken – you’re not jumping gaps no other person could ever jump – the game traces a path from your current point to your end point – if it’s within 600, success – if not, failure. There are definitely exceptions that should be fixed, but they are not the rule – the rule works, and is fair.

Ah, i forgot the most ridicolous one: Khylo treb.

Guess what, those “exceptions” are all the best places to position yourself as a non-thief player.

And I’m excited for a fix – crying for a skill nerf based on bugs is stupid. Why not just ask them to fix the bugs? Kylho treb also isn’t a bug, it’s literally the definition of shadowstep – if you could walk there using the range of the skill, you shadowstep there – if you can’t walk to the wooden rim from the base using the listed range, then it needs to be fixed, but if the 900 range is sufficient, then it’s being applied exactly as intended.

Yeah, a single profession countering whole teams positioning and countering whole professions. What a well designed conquest type.

Do explain how 1 player counters an entire team’s positioning. They can counter 1 players superior positioning, and that seems fairly reasonable to me. You’ve also thrown in some hyperbole there at the end, without any sort of backup.

Yeah, i’m sure that the higher half of EU leaderboards is full of terribads…

Not all of them, just you. And I said inexperienced, because I’m not trying to be rude, but your opinion seems like that of someone who has a poor understanding of the game in general.

And lol WTF, everyone in this forums know i’m a thief….

I don’t particularly give a kitten if people get frustrated. If we used the forums to design thieves, our weapon choices would be a wet towel and a stick, and all of our skills would root/blind ourselves upon completion. People don’t like thief mechanics because they’re designed to be sneaky/mobile/annoying to fight. I’d rather see people L2P then bow down to their crybaby antics.

Mrbig.8019:

There’s no way to counter S/D porting.

There are a number of ways. You can close to the portal, drop AoE on the portal, back away from the portal so when they return you’re out of Inf strike range, you can use a ranged weapon…

Can you understand that S/D thief deals too much damage to also counter other classes positioning ?

S/D thief does kitten for damage – In a setup any other spec would consider burst, they do solid sustained damage – GC S/D thieves do damage equivalent to most sustained damage specs. CS and LS contain all the power in the S/D set – dodge them and an S/D thief is doing laughable damage – This statement calls your “I play S/D thief” claim into question, because it doesn’t take longer than 5 minutes to see how low S/D damage is compared to Dagger MH (particularly D/P) with equivalent stats.

S/D thief basically counters any other glass cannon profession, you can’t escape from it in any way because of “Z-Axis spammable teleport”.

Again, you don’t know what you’re talking about – except for a few notable exceptions, Inf strike works just like any other shadowstep – you need to be to walk to your target using the listed range. There are times when this doesn’t work, but they are the exception rather than the rule. Those issues should be fixed, but overall Inf strike is fine

They should make range requirements to it and it should NEVER counter the good positioning another player achieved with a long CD skill ( so he won’t be able to reposition himself for that CD) otherwise it’s just a game of “ehi thief, go there and kill, who cares about coordination”. It dumbs down the game.

So, the first team to get to the point should always have the advantage, hands down? That sounds like a poorly designed, boring as kitten conquest game nobody wants to play. Things have counters – get used to it.

And my main is S/D thief ( i think all in this forum know it) and has always been. So i’m asking to nerf HARD my OWN profession.

I find this incredibly hard to believe. Do you fight alot of inexperienced players? Are you an inexperienced player yourself? Your understanding of S/D thief is flawed at best. You think their damage is insane (it’s not) and you fail to realize that Inf Strike works as designed in most scenario’s.

It just so happens that I also Main all the classes I hate to fight, so when I ask to nerf them other people on the forums should consider my opinion above others. Except I don’t ask for nerf’s, I just keep trying to get better, and realize there are some matchups I just wont win 1 on 1.

Divinity.8041:

Lordrosicky.5813:

4, Sword thief evades – L2P, use terrain, LoS and then AoE them down. Could use some fine tuning, but it’s not horrible.

Cain…You understand sword teleport doesn’t use LOS, or terrain right? Watch sensotix video about thieves just pressing a button and teleporting to their targert through objects (henge for example). Or if he is above the thief on a hill, what does that matter? I just press a button and am there instantly. I stopped respecting your comments after you made such a terrible, mistake.

How about you l2play before making false comments.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/S-D-Thief-Too-Strong-Discussion/page/2#post2888344

Then go ahead and read that – a couple posts down you’ll see Sensotix agreeing with me. There’s nothing wrong with a class designed around good mobility countering good positioning. Especially when you consider how much the thief gives up to have that mobility.

There are some gaps that Inf Strike jumps that it shouldn’t (Clocktower from beneath it), but those are the exceptions rather than the rule – for the most part, inf strike functions like all other shadow steps. There are also some jumps that Inf strike should clearly work on but doesn’t, so it’s not like the bugs are all in favor of the thief

Just because you don’t like S/D thief doesn’t make it OP – Learn to play and counter, and you’ll have a better time.

4, Without mobility, a stealth-less thief is a sitting duck. Learn to time your attacks, you’ll do fine.

5, Again, if you don’t want thieves to dodge, give them blocks, immunity skills, and crazy access to regen/aegis/protection, or some of these things and a bump up to 15k base HP.

7 , You’ve brought this up before, and I’ll say the same thing – it’s on par with a number of other rune sets that give permanent bonuses.

8, Dodging = not doing any damage. Learn to time your attacks.

14, Hey, we agree, finally.

18, No, it isn’t.

21, Agree

gesho.9468:

thx for tips ppl. I switched movement to kbd, spells and targeting to naga. was bad, but its improving now. i guess this is more effective, at least for gw2. though pulling combos takes some finger wriggling.
I wish naga had 5×3 buttons (instead of 4×3)

It takes some time to get used to the mouse (and it will feel like a step backwards until you get used to it), but once you’ve got it down, you’ll wonder how you ever did without it.

TeamBattleAxe.3901:

Elementalist
Current: Ice Shard Stab – attack and chill a foe
New: Gain Might, Protection, Swiftness, Regeneration (shorter versions of the attunement bonuses, basically)

Plasma already gives a bunch of boons, this is just a kittentier version of that.

Engineer
Current: Throw Gunk – inflict a random condition
New: Remove all conditions and gain immunity to conditions for a couple of seconds (sort of like an Endure Pain for condis)

Guardian
Current: Daze foe with a mace crack
New: Grant Aegis, Stability, and Regeneration

Again, why would I want a cruddier version of Plasma? Head crack is also a strong skill – thieves don’t get long duration anything due to the init system, so 4s of daze can be very, very nice – it would be nice thematically if it ignored block (since you get it from a guardian), but I don’t know how balanced that would be.

Mesmer
Current: Consume Plasma – gain all boons
This one is good as is, or can even be nerfed slightly. It’s THAT good, in my opinion.

Necromancer
Current: Skull Fear – aoe fear
New: Keep the aoe fear, also transfer conditions from you to nearby opponents (short duration… like a weaker version of Plague Signet+Epidemic). If that’s too powerful, then scratch that and perhaps create a Well of Power at your location instead when you use the aoe fear.

Or just scrap the fear idea entirely, and turn this into a condition mitigation option for thieves, who are currently lacking those options.

Ranger
Current: Healing Seed – water field, regen, and pulse condi removal
Good as is. Extremely powerful in group situations.

Thief
Current: Blinding Tuft – stealth + blind nearby foes
This one is also good as is. Even though I don’t use it. >:T

Nothing mechanically wrong with this really, but boring. Tiny benefit for thieves who don’t use stealth. Could use an update to make it more useful for the thief class in general, rather than just some specific specs.

Warrior
Current: Whirling Axe – spin attack
New: I’m kinda torn on this one. I like the idea of whirling axe, but I think it should have stability on it as well. But I’d also kind of dig the idea of Endure Pain instead. Screw it, give us all three!

The whirl finisher along with projectile reflection can come in handy – I use it to stack poison on healing signet warriors…who cleansing ire it away in 7 seconds anyway, but at least I got those 7 seconds.

ryston.7640:

fuster cluck surrounded by glowy particle effects

This isn’t even a particularly cluster-kitteny picture. Busy, yes, but not truly indicative of how cluttered a screen can realistically get. I’ve experienced way worse.

Sensotix.4106:

thank you for your points and i can actually see what you mean and agree on most of them

Thanks.

I will agree with you one point – Inf Strike needs to be standardized – there are gaps Inf strike shouldn’t be able to get to with its listed range (Clocktower node, from directly beneath it outside the building), and there are also gaps it should easily be able to “walk to” when used that don’t work correctly. It’d be nice to see the shadowsteps in general fixed, because the “Can walk to spot using skills listed range” is applied almost haphazardly.

Arachnid.4062:

-50% stun and condi duration is overpowered.

Dodge builds already have enough immunity simply with evades

Thief already has decent condi clears.

Thief has stacked condi clears – SA thieves have excellent condi removal, Non-SA thieves have meh condi removal. The 2 need to be balanced.

Daecollo.9578:

Can you please change these skills to what Guardian and Elementalist get?

Thief:

Vigorous Recovery
Gain 5 seconds of vigor when you deliver a critical hit. This effect can only trigger once every 5 seconds.

No thanks – I don’t want my meager defensive boons locked behind a spec specific barrier. Thief already has plenty of design choices to incentivize crit, no need to add vigor to it.

Sensotix.4106:

BUT the port to some highgrounds on several maps are just not justified because as i said it punishes good positioning

I have no problem discussing things with you when you actually make points. Thieves are designed to have the most mobility – they counter good positioning – that is their role in the game. They’ve constantly chipped away at thief survivability, and thief burst – they have to occupy some role in the game, or else they wouldn’t be taken at all. Countering good positioning is part of having great mobility- they’re the class that can harass you no matter where you go – there’s no issue with classes have strengths and weaknesses.

So and i love that you propose me to go to the place where he has his original circle because that’s exactly the problem…let’s take for example foefire…the thief is on their side of the graveyard attacking with shortbow..he then switches to s/d once he sees the mesmer engaging into the mid..when i for example try to do dmg to the thief he can port back so highground easily…and if you now propose me to kinda wait there for him it’s absolutely braindead because if i would do this i would have to overextend a lot and run through his whole team positioning themselves on highground till i get to him…and guess what he does then? he burst me down easily after his team has dealt quite some damage to me

Really? The S/D thief “Bursts you down”? Can I inquire as to how? You claim to have played S/D thief, but you seem unaware that their “burst” is nonexistent – they can do solid damage with a CS or LS crit, but that damage always pales in comparison to what a Dagger MH thief could do, or any other class spec’d for burst. Also, you are describing a scenario almost tailored for thieves – picking a target that has been weakened by their teammates and finishing it off. That’s what highly mobile bursty classes do.

but on the opposite if he manages to bring me to 20% hp and i blink back to highground where the necro of my team is the thief just uses one port to get to me not having to run through my whole team waiting for someone to overextend and hits me 3 times before the necro stacks him enough conditions so he has to disengage (with just pressing one button also removing a condition or two)

Again, there isn’t an issue with a class designed to counter good positioning – otherwise, whichever team got their first would always have the upper hand, and in a capture point scenario, that leads to boring, static tactics.

that’s what i was saying
he has good sustained dmg

When running zerkers, with stats any other Direct Damage spec would consider bursty. S/D has good sustained when running glass cannon. I would know, I run a 10/0/0/30/30 build with Soldiers, and it plays more like an attrition build than a sustained build.

he has a huge amount of evades

Evades are a skill check – there’s no blocks, there’s no in-class protection – evades are all or nothing. It’s easy to make an evade thief look OP because they take no damage for the first 10 seconds of combat, but the second those evades are used up, you’ll watch him melt.

he has a port (also port back which u can also use when stunned)

Highest mobility class. If you prefer the days of CnD->Steal->Mug->BS->HS til dead, just ask ANet to give thieves the burst they used to have back.

he has not only boon remove but even boon steal

Blame ANet here – they made boon bunkers a thing, and they were obviously OP. Before LS, there wasn’t a real cost associated with throwing all of your important boons up when the battle started, because you could spec to keep them up for nearly an entire fight, and boon removal was severley lacking.

he has condi remove on his weaponset

removing 1 condition for 5 total init isn’t exactly OP. It also forces a disengage if you desperately need a condition removed.

his main dmg attack is unblockable

Yes, 1 of the 2 attacks S/D has available to it that does decent damage is unblockable. Luckily, it’s heralded by a flashy spin, and the skill itself is also recognizable, with a .5 cast time – as I’ve said 100 times before, you can neuter an S/D’s damage by dodging CS and LS – you can easily eat any other attack.

Skills on Mouse – It may be too late to suggest this, but if you can return the Naga, go with the Logitech g600 – more solid construction, logitech is a great company for warranties, and you get double the keys (there’s a third button that switches all 12 thumb buttons to a second mapping).

Einlanzer.1627:

It’s really not a great change. It’s better than nothing I suppose but the real problem with P/P is that Unload takes the role that Vital Shot should have and mucks up Initiative management for the whole set, leaving every other skill in a near-useless state.

It’s not a great change, but its a step in the right direction at least. Body shot just got promoted from “kitten I hit 2, I wasted init AND I look like a scrub” to tactically viable – you can prevent players from getting to a cap point, lock them down for another players burst (HB’s, Anyone?) or lock them down for a nigh guarantee’d CnD (Assuming the aftercast isn’t awful).

Sensotix.4106:

i am not american lol…
and no a thief can always win vs necros no matter how good they are..
engineers could actually be a problem i agree on that
and lol of course other thieves can win … that’s pretty obvious
and sry i have never seen a good s/d thief loosing to a good phantasm mesmer..
and lady nag nag killed several spirit rangers in the pax tournys (oh but wait if they have a 50/50 chance against another faceroll class (spirit ranger)) doesnt that prove that the spec is strong..?
and i dont know a thief should loose to a stunwarrior…have never seen that actually..

I think I’ve made a mistake taking you seriously. Your responses have been growing more and more Troll-ish since people started challenging you opinion and pointing out where you’re wrong. All you’ve been able to provide is fallacious bullkitten and off topic babbling. Blanket statements like “Thief wins all the fights!” and “I talked to this guy, he agrees” have no value, they’re just word filler because you’re having a hard time coming up with a coherent argument. Have a good day.

P.S. – I just conferred with 30,000 players via special thief telepathy only we know about, many of them top ranked, and they agree with me.

Sensotix.4106:

okay guys …i just talked to shh sh shad the thief of team shad who is currently leading the leaderboard team q….he also agreed on the things i mentioned being op…

Good for him, you can have an incorrect opinion together.

What was this supposed to prove?

Sensotix.4106:

okay then again
lets say everyone is on the same skill level

and i am talking about the current tournament and/or metabuilds
thief should win vs almost everything

Too vague – Purple wins almost every encounter with the universe.

If you want that statement to be taken seriously, you’re going to need to tell the community what spec the thief is using, and what spec “almost everything” else is using, otherwise you’re just spouting nonsense. It’s alot of work, going to GW2skills, speccing out builds, explaining why you feel the way you do, but until you can give me some sort of metric we can discuss, you’re just saying “Thief OP pls nrf” with no context.

Burnfall.9573:

Also evilapprentice.

I have an interesting read for you.

-“Thief fundamental design flaws”-

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Thief-fundamental-design-flaws/first#post152197

Deejay doesn’t really know what he’s talking about. That’s not meant to be rude, he’s a nice person from my interactions with him, but He’s not really qualified enough to be considered a source on what thieves need. Might I direct you to this post where I convince him of such personally – https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Thieves-never-well-rounded-with-Initiative/first#post2859222

Lastly,

“Why can some Thieves kill my level 80 instantly”?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Why-can-some-Thieves-kill-my-level-80-instantly

Do whatever you like with thieves in WvW – I don’t play it, have no interest in it, and don’t have the experience to comment on it. I’m only interested in how thieves perform in SPvP/TPvP. Although, IIRC, isn’t S/D considered fairly weak in WvW? I’m just basing that on other peoples opinions though, so that could be incorrect as well.

Sensotix.4106:

it was an example
another example..thief wins vs warriors in tournys
thief wins vs ele in tournys
vs necros
vs mesmers
vs guardians
vs some engis
vs some rangers

again this is just an example to show you guys there is no atual counter

You’re literally spouting gibberish. You don’t make any mention of skill level, scenario, or spec for the other players. Here’s a list logically equivalent with yours.

Purple wins vs green in tourneys.
vs blue
vs the moon
vs gravity
vs mars
vs sound
vs a slightly different shade of purple
vs emus
vs the ground sometimes
vs buildings, if they’re over 10 stories.

You don’t really have a point other than “S/D can win fights, and I don’t like that.” You don’t seem like a bad guy, you just don’t really have any good proof to back up your arguments, and you’re saying alot of things that don’t really pertain to the conversation.

Sensotix.4106:

I am aweare of that fact but when you dont have enough initiative you can still port back out of the line of sight..thats my point..you cant kill a well played s/d thief just watch the pax finals…when caed tried to kill lady nag nag…he was full hp nag nag had like 4k and nag nag killed him

Anecdotal evidence means nothing. Weren’t people also pointing out how Caed couldn’t scratch that warrior? Guess he was OP too.

Just because a spec does poorly against another spec, or gasp, there might be a skill difference between 2 players, doesn’t mean a spec is broken or another is UP.

Burnfall.9573:

evilapprentice.6379:

Sensotix.4106:

concerning the damage: Yes 1.8k autoattack is much…(compare it to mesmer ~700-1k) (compare it to ele ~1.2k) and that’s just the autoattack

Auto-attack CRIT, And crippling strike At that (one of the 2 sword attacks that hits hard, and the only one that requires you to be open for reataliation to get to) – Also, please clarfiy, are you running 10/30/0/30/0 with a zerkers? Cause if so, you were also fulfilling Executioner and First strikes, for another 30% damage.

the more I read the more I have to facepalm….sry that’s how it is atm

I know it’s not a free leap to 100% of all places but to 80% of it and being able to follow somebody through walls or on highground is a broken mechanic that’s how it is

80% is an exaggeration only someone with little experience with S/D could come up with. I’m honestly kind of surprised it ports up on the ledge in your video, because usually the skill will only port you to your target if you could walk there with the listed range – there are other notable exceptions, but they are generally the exceptions, not the rule. Also calling it a “Free” leap is misleading, as it costs initiative.

Evades: yes every class has special abilities u took the guards boons for an example thank you very much for that because that’s exactly what I mean
You can counter the massive boons of the guardian with a shatter mesmer, the s/d thief, or a necro but how do you counter evades? well I hope you get the point

How do you counter immunes, and blocks? It’s called Timing. Learn to time your attacks. If an S/D thief is evading, he’s not hitting you with anything hard (That list includes Crippling Strike, Larcenous strike…and ends there).

All in all I have to tell you from what I have read in your comment is that you seem to play s/d thief are not really experienced with whats going on in top 200 tpvp and that you love your thief too much to accept that some mechanics are too strong which may comes from you only playing thief and not playing other classes against s/d thieves

It seems strange that you feel yourself capable of judging others understanding of S/D when you make points that expose your misunderstanding and dislike of the class.

Ps: Thief directly counters necro worm port, mesmer blink, ele blink (3 disengages)
what counters thief really hard in tournys? hm?

That’s what thieves do – they stick to their targets. I suppose you dislike steal, shadow shot, scorpion wire, and infiltrators signet as well? What do you want thief to be, a kittentier flavor of warrior?

evilapprentice

You can continue denying Thief being underpowered yet more truths about thieves overpowerdness are rapidly being exposed.

As the saying goes, “fight to the death for what you believe”, it seem that’s that’s the path you choose to to take.

Evilapprentice,

the Truth always Prevail.

Once again,

the Truths speak, “Thief class is in Serious need to be ajusted/scaled/”

Since you seem unaware – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

Sensotix.4106:

There is no counter to perma evade – fact

There is no such thing as “perma evade” – Fact

Thief certainly has access to alot of evades, but every 1/2s FS is paired with a 1/2s LS, meaning they can only be evading via FS→LS…Half the time – not even close to “perma evade”. And unlike say, a Ranger or Mesmer, we don’t have the option to leave pets/effects around to do our damage while we’re evading/hiding – not a complaint against those classes, just something you seem unaware of. So even when a thief is blowing endurance and dodging, they’re not doing anything in the way of damage.

Sensotix.4106:

concerning the damage: Yes 1.8k autoattack is much…(compare it to mesmer ~700-1k) (compare it to ele ~1.2k) and that’s just the autoattack

Auto-attack CRIT, And crippling strike At that (one of the 2 sword attacks that hits hard, and the only one that requires you to be open for reataliation to get to) – Also, please clarfiy, are you running 10/30/0/30/0 with a zerkers? Cause if so, you were also fulfilling Executioner and First strikes, for another 30% damage.

the more I read the more I have to facepalm….sry that’s how it is atm

I know it’s not a free leap to 100% of all places but to 80% of it and being able to follow somebody through walls or on highground is a broken mechanic that’s how it is

80% is an exaggeration only someone with little experience with S/D could come up with. I’m honestly kind of surprised it ports up on the ledge in your video, because usually the skill will only port you to your target if you could walk there with the listed range – there are other notable exceptions, but they are generally the exceptions, not the rule. Also calling it a “Free” leap is misleading, as it costs initiative.

Evades: yes every class has special abilities u took the guards boons for an example thank you very much for that because that’s exactly what I mean
You can counter the massive boons of the guardian with a shatter mesmer, the s/d thief, or a necro but how do you counter evades? well I hope you get the point

How do you counter immunes, and blocks? It’s called Timing. Learn to time your attacks. If an S/D thief is evading, he’s not hitting you with anything hard (That list includes Crippling Strike, Larcenous strike…and ends there).

All in all I have to tell you from what I have read in your comment is that you seem to play s/d thief are not really experienced with whats going on in top 200 tpvp and that you love your thief too much to accept that some mechanics are too strong which may comes from you only playing thief and not playing other classes against s/d thieves

It seems strange that you feel yourself capable of judging others understanding of S/D when you make points that expose your misunderstanding and dislike of the class.

Ps: Thief directly counters necro worm port, mesmer blink, ele blink (3 disengages)
what counters thief really hard in tournys? hm?

That’s what thieves do – they stick to their targets. I suppose you dislike steal, shadow shot, scorpion wire, and infiltrators signet as well? What do you want thief to be, a kittentier flavor of warrior?

Sensotix.4106:

yea but the problem is if they lower the condi dmg in the next patchs and the aoe dmg overall this thief will be way too stronge because the main sources to kill him are gone..

Please clarify.

Are you suggesting we beat Sword with the nerf bat pre-emptively just in case condi damage and AoE is lowered (Haven’t seen a whole lot about that in the patch note previews)?

Without waitint to see what the actual changes are, if any? Without waiting to see how the changes mesh and what kind of new meta emerges? That seems particularly punitive for a spec you simply don’t like to fight.

Jasher.6580:

Look, the point I’m making is that the OP’s statement is false. Not everyone plays Asura. Not even in the higher brackets.

OP’s hyperbole might have been off, but his point remains valid – Asura have a noticeable advantage when you consider how many pets some current viable builds can field, the fact that they have entirely different animations for the same attacks when compared to other races (which means memorizing 2 animations for each attack), and how hard it can be to read said animations.

Sensotix.4106:

i want to see a mesmer or necro chase a thief haha

I could want to see a thief spawn clones.
I could want to see a thief lay down huge AoE condition circles from afar.
I could want to see a thief ignore a frenzied HB’s from a GC warrior because he was immune for 4s.
I could want to see a thief pounding on his target from 1500 range.

But alas, some classes just aren’t designed that way.

Daecollo.9578:

evilapprentice.6379:

Jasher.6580:

Daecollo.9578:

jportell.2197:

I play a charr Or a max size norn thief

It gets worse the higher ranked you are.

A lot of top players. Top 50 Team Arena. Do NOT play Asura and they do just fine.

IIRC, wasn’t the anniversary tournament entirely (or almost entirely) Asura and Minimum Size Human Females? That says something.

Lol.

I think he means the leaderboards, which is mostly top 50 afk players.

That was my point – the players who made it to a cash prize tournament decided to all roll tiny characters – that’s indicative of an issue. Skilled players playing for money decided Asura and Min size human females were the best choice – leaderboards don’t even come into the equation.

Jasher.6580:

Daecollo.9578:

jportell.2197:

I play a charr Or a max size norn thief

It gets worse the higher ranked you are.

A lot of top players. Top 50 Team Arena. Do NOT play Asura and they do just fine.

IIRC, wasn’t the anniversary tournament entirely (or almost entirely) Asura and Minimum Size Human Females? That says something.

Sensotix.4106:

Klinch.2964:

I agree with causing inf. strike to fail when out of range. The initial shadowstep shouldn’t work when out of range. Steal doesn’t work that way, so why does this skill?

As for fighting a thief with sword, when possible, RUN TO HIS INNITIAL SHADOWSTEP SPOT. If you fight around this spot, he can’t disengage when he wants to (unless he uses utilities of course). Doing this, makes fighting sword thieves much easier.

u cant run to this spot in tournys haha

If His return circle is off point, you can at least get as close to it as you can while remaining on point (and to be within strike range, it has to be 600 range away or less)

If you’re getting 2v1’d, well, them’s the breaks – you’re outnumbered, that confers certain advantages to the team outnumbering you.

Mepheles.2087:

providing enough sustained damage that classes with lots of regen are shut down easily.

Wait… what? This couldn’t be more inaccurate. Watch an S/D thief against a Healing Signet warrior if you’ve got a bucket of popcorn and a comfortable seat, because you’ll be watching a LONG fight. Note, I’m also talking from the perspective of S/D-Shbow (in short, plenty of poison), not Double S/D, which just shouldn’t waste their time.

Sensotix.4106:

i dont have to upload such a video just check the pax finale where lady nag nag nag pwns everything

I think basing the effectiveness of a spec on an international tournament winner’s ability to play it is misleading. Their opponents were obviously below them in skill level as well, leading to a very skewed view.

Sensotix.4106:

yes but isnt the risk/efficency scale a little bit weird?

Not particularly.

You give up any semblance of burst for sustained damage.

You very rarely access stealth (most usually to interrupt a stomp/res/churning earth type skill).

The DPS is actually quite low on every skill except for Crippling strike (end of AA chain) and Larcenous strike. An entire set that only has 2 important skills to dodge makes avoiding the brunt of swords damage rather easy.

If S/D was less dodgy, it wouldn’t be able to kill anything. It’s pretty easy to time your counters against an S/D thief (I have very little trouble doing so, because I main an S/D thief). Starting one up and playing for a few days would highlight it’s weaknesses to you rather quickly.

Assassin X.8573:

Personally I would rather see perma stealth stance like ability. Activate it you are invisible. Attack or deactivate triggers a 5-15 second cool down but you cannot enter stealth until you leave combat (when you are able to swap utilities). Reduce movement speed while invisible to 75% of normal run speed. Trait can increase stealthed movement by 50% to a max of perma 33% ims while invisible. Move this trait to grandmaster.

This would solve everyone’s problems.

You’re talking about re-working stealth in its entirety. That’s just not feasible. One of the major points of my suggestion is it would be simple to implement, does not change the current power level of stealth and stealth attacks, and would keep both sides happy.

ensoriki.5789:

tigirius.9014:

What’s odd about it is they have the 20% faster cooldown on Steal in a grandmaster slot no less! That’s about as bad as having a 50% faster endurance regen trait in a grandmaster slot (engineer) when the ranger gets it for free for 5 points.

Sleight of Hand is an instant interrupt with 20% cdr on steal. It’s not just 20%….the things people belittle.

It’s a grand master trait – it really should be a 1s stun. It takes 20% off of 1 skill, whereas lower tier weaponskill traits take 20% off 4 weaponskills

Steal can also be tied to many things (Mug, kleptomaniac, bountiful theft, thrill of the crime, the last 2 you will almost certainly be running if you’re running slight of hand and klepto is a minor), so tactically saving it as an interrupt can reduce the effectiveness of other traits in the same line if you’re trying to count on it for any of its other functions. It’s still a useful trait, it just feels a tiny bit weak for a grand master trait.

Thanks for the assist Kaon, Yih just wasn’t getting it – the ludicrous rigidity in his semantics was kittening exhausting.

I still haven’t seen a single post that can provide an even half-way decent reason why this suggestion isn’t superior to what Anet is planning. Now how do we get a Dev response here?

This lag is absolutely ludicrous. What is it that guarantee’s that after every patch we’ll have a myriad of the same constantly reoccurring issues to deal with?

Is it the lack of a PTR?

It’s the lack of a PTR.

Hotjoin is currently completely unplayable thanks to lag. Any word on when this will be addressed?

Dee Jay.2460:

evilapprentice.6379:

-snip-

You make a good case. While I do think there is merit to what I stated you have convinced me that the lack of focus on the weapon-sets is the bigger issue.

Death Blossom spammers spam Death Blossom mostly because there is no other melee-Condition damage attack.

Sneak Attack spammer spam Sneak Attack because there is no other decent ranged Bleed attack.

A more clear-cut (X/Y is for Condition builds, A/B is for Power-builds) would probably address a lot of my complaints.

Skill unification on each weaponset is a big part of it, but I think what makes D/P really shine is the fact that the weaponset is highly focused. It only does a few things (good damage, good access to damage prevention via blind/daze, and good gap closing), but each skill does it slightly differently, with different associated benefits and negatives. That’s what leads to D/P being such a versatile set.

You don’t have 4 different skills that do 4 vastly different things, so you’re never in a situation where skill X is always your best choice because at that moment, you need what skill X provides (be it evasion, big damage, mitigation, etc).

I’m just trying to warn you, be prepared to possibly deal with it for quite a while.

Anet is apparently aware of the situation – it’s been an issue since the Jun 25th patch. I wouldn’t count on it getting fixed any time soon.

We understand Ryan, you don’t like the suggestion. Thanks for the input, let’s not derail the thread.

Dee Jay.2460:

evilapprentice.6379:

-snip-

Of course I exaggerated a little. But at the core it’s still correct.

Yes, an Evade spam build will actually use all his abilities frequently….well except for Dancing Dagger and sometimes switching to Shortbow is viable too.

So while the reality is slightly less cut and dry than I presented it the flaw about Initiative still is true. Initiative lends itself towards spammy game-play because it rewards you for investing it in the most effective way. And your most effective move is rarely more than 1-2 skills, depending on your build. Hence Death Blossom spam, Sneak Attack spam, Heartseeker spam, Evade spam etc.

Maybe this is a side-effect of only having 10-15 skills to work with and maybe other classes aren’t much better with their “rotations”. But when I dodge a 100 Blades from a Warrior at least I know he won’t be able to use it again in the next few seconds.

Your “core” isn’t incorrect, but you’re laying the blame on thief and initiative as a whole, and that is not the problem here. The blame lies on poor weapon design. Look at D/P again, because it is by far our most well designed weaponset. For the most part with D/P, the ability you use next will be a complicated choice based on a number of factors, because D/P usually has at least 2 skills (sometimes more) worth using in a given scenario, and your choice will affect further choices later in the fight.

You see DB spam because Anet for some unknown reason put a condition based dual attack in the middle of a direct damage weaponset. You see evade spam because Anet overnerfed dagger OH months ago, so its that or AA. You see sneak attack spam because it’s the only way for P/D to do decent damage. You see HS spam (when it’s used correctly, trying to finish off a scrambling, low health target) because ANet designed it as a thief’s finishing move, or because the thief is inexperienced.
This isn’t the fault of thieves, or the initiative system, because thankfully we have an excellent counter-example in D/P – Anet needs to revamp these weaponsets (Some need more work than others), they should all be as fluid and adaptable as D/P.

D/P even manages to devalue HS spam when your target is low – sometimes hitting Shadowshot and blinding that Eviscerate/HS/etc coming your way when both you and your target are at low health is infinitely more valuable that doing more damage with an under 25% HS. Sometimes its more important to interrupt it with Head shot, even though Headshot does negligible damage(like if it was a multi hit attack like HB’s or PW). It should be the standard by which all thief weaponsets are judged.

Concerning your HB’s example with warrior, I agree with you, but thief pays the price for that – thieves do not get any skills that compare in raw power with HB’s, because they are spammable. You’ll never see a thief skill that applies any decent length of a strong condition to an opponent, or a boon to themselves. You’ll never see a stun/kb/immob longer than second. You’ll never see the kind of damage an Eviscerate or a HB’s can do on a single thief skill because a thief can spam them – so there are costs as well as benefits associated with the init system.

Yih.4950:

evilapprentice.6379:

you’re arguing that this impossible because “That’s the way Stealth is defined”, and I’m saying “…So just redefine it” – it’s not that hard, it’s not that complicated, and it’s not that big of a departure from what we currently have. It’s Infinitely easier than completely redesigning SA

evilapprentice.6379:

anet does not have the resources to completely redesign stealth, nor should they have to – my suggestion works because its fair, and most importantly easy to implement, and therefore something they could possibly take seriously and try for a patch coming in less than a month.

One minute you want a stealth redesign, the next minute you don’t want to to be. If you want an easy fix, you’re just asking for a kittenty game. I’m done in this discussion because I’ve already made a case that SUPPORTS your argument and yet you are arguing just for the sake of arguing.

PS: refrain from extremely overly gargantuan infinitely eternally humongous adverbs. They just fill up space.

Sigh. Do try to calm down, you’ve completely missed the point. I’m sorry you don’t like my suggestion, but I can’t make it any clearer for you.

Yih.4950:

I tried coming up with a purposeful reply, but I feel you shot it down with something you’ve only hinted at and didn’t really think about…I don’t think you’ve explicitly mentioned a stealth rework until the above post. If you believe it does, then provide how it could be.

Also, did you read my post completely? Please read the last paragraph because it’s essentially what you are arguing for.

…I didn’t specifically mention a stealth rework because you’re defining stealth extremely narrowly. Your argument is “You can’t be in stealth AND visible because stealth is defined as invisibility!” and I’m saying "My proposed debuff adds a sentence to the definition, “Unless you have debuff X, in which case you can be in stealth and visible” – you’re arguing semantics, I’m arguing game mechanics – there was until recently a bug in the game that made the thief visible (only on the thief players screen) while in stealth after using a teleport skill, so we already know that the engine can handle rendering a character visibly who has the stealth buff on them.

I didn’t acknowledge your last paragraph because it is again, a major departure from my point. Reworking stealth into a boon and revealed into a condition is extremely overly complicated – anet does not have the resources to completely redesign stealth, nor should they have to – my suggestion works because its fair, and most importantly easy to implement, and therefore something they could possibly take seriously and try for a patch coming in less than a month.

Yih.4950:

The problem with both propositions is that there is only one aspect of stealth: invisibility.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stealth

There is no room for interpretation regarding this game’s definition of stealth. If you want benefits of the SA tree while being targeted by potential stealth-breaking skills, then the SA tree is what needs to be revamped, and based around an alternative instead of stealth.

But it doesn’t need to be, that is the point. There’s no ancient stone tablet handed down for generations that declares, irrevocably, that this has to be the way things work. The servers will not explode or catch fire if the 2 are decoupled – you’re arguing that this impossible because “That’s the way Stealth is defined”, and I’m saying “…So just redefine it” – it’s not that hard, it’s not that complicated, and it’s not that big of a departure from what we currently have. It’s Infinitely easier than completely redesigning SA, and as long as thieves have stealth as an option, there should be traits that empower it – base stealth is a pretty kittenty mechanic, it practically relies on SA to be an effective mechanic that you can use on a regular basis. Let’s also note that Mesmer has some heavy stealth trait options, so we’d have to go and redesign a bunch of their traits too – why go through all that when my suggestion satisfies the “stealth is too powerful” people without completely screwing over classes that have stealth as a mechanic, while additionally not being so complicated to implement as the complete overhaul of every stealth trait?

AND AGAIN, stop bringing up how long it lasts – it’s a poorly thought of ability on a design level, the actual parameters are inconsequential. “Using it on the wrong target” is nothing special to Sic em – that applies to every skill in the game. The CD doesn’t matter, the fact that the thief can run away doesn’t matter, It is a fundamentally poor design choice to offer a class an ability that directly counters spent trait points – you don’t have to agree with me, but please stop trying to justify how it’s “not so bad” by listing the exact parameters – they have ABSOLUTELY no bearing on how bad the idea is at its base.

Your suggestion invalidates the current bunker options – they’re not completely redesigning how bunkers work (and then completely redesigning how DPS works, because they just redesigned bunkers). That’s why there’s no chance of this ever happening.

I haven’t bothered to log in in days – it’s far too frustrating to lose to lag, because I can’t even try to outplay lag.

Yih.4950:

evilapprentice.6379:

Yih.4950:

What do you lose in 4 seconds? i.e. how many condition drops, how many might stacks, etc.

Why quantify it? You lose access to the entirety of your points spent in SA (at least currently – ATM, the best traits for SA are entirely stealth based. This might change in the future), one of your primary defense mechanics, and potential offensive mechanics, all to counter invisibility. Why not just counter the invisibility aspect?

I’m not an experienced thief—mine is only level 30; therefore, I’m interested in what is not gained during the 4 second reveal duration so I can determine my stance on your proposal. From what I know, you can lose one condition; regen initiative faster; regen health; and gain one might stack. You are proposing to negate the invisibility aspect of stealth with revealed, but still include these benefits. If that is implemented, the revealed state would have to be reworked or another state would have to be implemented to signify this pseudo-stealth.

The actual benefits don’t matter – they represent 30 out of 70 possible trait points – that’s the issue at hand – you should counter the “Stealth Issue” (quotes because I don’t personally believe stealth is an issue, but that’s not important to this discussion) of not being able to see/track/directly attack thieves in stealth without potentially nullifying all the trait related benefits of up to 42% of my total trait point allocation can provide. No other skill in the game carries that kind of power, especially since once the skill hits you, there’s no counter for it.

Someone in another forum proposed a name for this state—being visible while gaining the benefits of stealth: Detected. He argues that Detected should replace Revealed because the latter hinders the thief SA line significantly.

The problem with this proposition is that a thief can extort Detected by applying it on himself—using stealth skills while he is still stealthed— to gain the boons/condition-clears of the SA tree. With Detected, there would be no timer preventing a thief from continuously stacking might, removing conditions, regaining health, and regaining initiative…as long as he has enough initiative.

That’s not my suggestion, that’s someone else’s – my suggestion does not grant the thief any special benefits – stealth is still stealth – whether or not you have this proposed debuff which makes you still visible, it still acts like stealth in every other way – No capping points, landing any attack triggers revealed, etc etc etc. It does not replace revealed, the thief still gets revealed normally, I’m just suggesting these skills (Sic Em, the skills that will eventually gain anti-stealth in the future) apply a different debuff that counters the invisibility portion of stealth.

I’m not familiar with this other persons suggestion, but I believe you’re misreading it – he probably meant "Instead of Sic Em and traps in WvW triggering revealed, have them trigger “Detected” instead", Not “replace revealed with detected completely”. Perhaps I’m wrong there, but the version you’re describing would be a pretty insane buff, whereas my suggestion is just a way to counter stealth without screwing over SA thieves and thieves who rely on their stealth attacks to do the Damage in their builds.

Also note, with my proposed change, stealth is still countered fairly hard – it loses all defensive benefits, and it makes the offensive benefits much harder to pull off (you can see the thief approaching for the BS/TS, see the sneak attack coming, etc) – all my suggestion prevents is potentially locking the thief out of 42% of their traits.

I think it’s clear that this game’s definition of invisibility is stealth and vice versa. 4 seconds is really not that rough, especially given that a ranger has to time the reveal skill it to really disrupt a thief’s flow. I assume other skills which will gain access to applying reveal will also be measured.

I don’t agree with you concerning stealth and invisibility, but that is again beside the point – there’s no reason to keep the 2 needlessly intertwined, especially when it would be easy and better for the game to decouple the 2 – The main gripe against stealth is “I dont know where the thief went, and he gets to get away” – decoupling the invisibility aspect counters that without needless collateral damage.

The length of time does not matter – it’s silly to introduce anything to the game that can potentially invalidate 42% of your total trait selections for any length of time. It’s only a matter of time before different classes gain “anti-stealth” abilities (See: GW2 before anti-stealth trap, after Anti-stealth trap, and again after the Oct 15th update), and I’d rather see them intelligently designed rather than just applied heavy handedly.