Guild Wars 2

Lordrosicky.5813:

Here is a list of things that you should nerf:

13, Inf Strike – not moving people to somewhere without line of sight

Thieves rely on mobility to remain relevant – please get used to it.

14, Larcenous strike – remove evasion from flanking strike
15, feline grace – add 10s icd
16, Shadows refuge – cooldown

You know what sounds fair? Take the class that relies on evades almost exclusively to mitigate damage and kill their evades.
Why bother with 3 separate points when you could have typed “Lawl, delete thief”.

Zanryu.3417:

In other words, no videos and very few threads can actually be taken as valid evidence for either side? Interesting. I’d love to make something that could show either way what state Warriors are in, but organizing that is a challenge. …

All we can rely upon is statistical evidence. Individual experience MIGHT be accurate, but can’t be PROVEN accurate. There are too many variables. If I think class X is OP, or you think it isnt, its highly influenced by our experiences. Our experiences are not strictly controlled; there are too many unrecorded variables (for those who don’t have access to the statistics, like Anet does) for an outside observer to make a judgement call on our experience.

We’ve argued and argued, and neither side wants to give, however the side claiming Warriors are OP tend to stick to insults and otherwise negative posts rather than explain why the Warrior as OP….

To be fair, some players are insulting in their defense of the class. I play a thief, and I’ve been on both sides (the insulting prick, and the rational player defending the class) – anger begets anger, and ruins the debate. It doesn’t help that trolls on all sides make it their business to provoke people. It muddies the debate, but it’s human nature, and hard to avoid.

Really all we can do is discuss the skills and how they interact with each other, and how those skills are utilized in combat. I’ve already addressed the issue with Healing Signet and Adrenal health, however I have yet to see a counter argument to it….

Just a note, I’m not interested in dissecting what I think is OP (Its just my opinion, after all, likely biased and flawed, even if I don’t think it is), I’m just providing an example — My personal opinion is that the current issues with warrior are a complex interaction of a number of traits and skills – Berserkers stance granting immunity to poison + HS+AH+CI+UF+7s Burst skill CD+Independent Burst skills between weapons + guaranteed condition cleansing Via LB Burst (I’ve made arguments on HS+AH+CI and BS before, but the more I think about it, the more the other points show themselves to be part of the issue, IMO). It’s easy to say “Look how OP this one skill is!”, and “prove” it anecdotally. It’s much harder to say “Look how the interaction between these weapon choices, utility choices, traits, and class ability design all mesh together to be OP”, and “prove” it anecdotally – especially when we consider player skill/spec/etc.

If you’d like to discuss this and bring math into it, then do it. You don’t need videos to post in this thread and engage in discussion, voice your concerns and explain why you think the way you….

Players have tried – when pointing out the pure HPS of HS, Other players (Ashanor, for example) distract from the point with kittenty arguments, and turn it into something altogether different. Again, bringing my opinion into play, in a 1v1 scenario, warrior specs running HS and at least 20 points in Defense are hard to counter, because HS is uninterruptible and highly resistant to poison (unless your spec can spam the kitten out of poison while also doing enough DPS to overshadow HS) thanks to CI – those are 2 of the most prevalent, accepted counters to high healing, and every warrior spec mitigates them handily. When you combine UF’s ability to allow small windows if burst to specs most would consider “tanky” for warrior AND the 7s, independent CD’s on burst skills that dont drain adrenaline on a miss AND LB’s ability to be a sure-fire trigger for CI, things start to look a bit grim. That argument can be a bit weak, because it doesn’t include of bunch of other issues I outlined above, but again, I’m not here to post my opinion on warriors.

The date behind the skills won’t tell you if something is broken or not. Just because it looks good on paper doesn’t mean it’ll do well in practice. Player feedback and discussions (in the case debate) are just as important as raw data in determining if things should be changed or not…

Player input can be important. When speaking about warrior (Again, IMO), it isn’t. It’s relatively easy for players to point out when 1 or 2 skills seemed overtuned. It’s altogether a different beast when you’re talking about the complex interaction of weapon choices, utilities, spec, amulet, runes, and class design that leaves players feeling a class is too rewarding/forgiving compared to others. Our personal experience doesn’t matter as much as Anets statistical data. If I lose 90% of my fights against warriors, there are at least a dozen reasons why that might be the case. If Anet notices warriors win 90% of fights, that’s a cause for concern.

Zanryu.3417:

Chicago Jack.5647:

Your “testing” methodology is horrendous and this thread is largely a waste of space. Zanryu, reading this might help:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_%28statistics%29

Seriously, this thread is so full of stupid.

I’d love to know why.

Seriously? I thought I laid this all out.

A) Your “skill” is not something we can map to a mathematic function. You could be an awful player, you could be an amazing player – you could be a member of CC – it doesn’t matter, our ability to qualify your level of skill is not based in entirely in reason, but mostly in observation and emotion. This a more minor point (We have to have SOME level of faith in qualifying “skill” to even do this), but if you want to strictly prove something, you look at statistics, not 1 players experience.
B) Fighting random players proves nothing. We have no idea of their skill level, their spec, their utilities, as well as other extraneous factors (Ping, did someone call their name IRL mid fight, etc).
C) We can’t see opposing players specs/amulet/runes/sigils. There are definitely hard and soft matchups in this game. S/D is probably the best spec to face a well played Hambow warrior, and D/P probably the worst (depending on what utilities Hambow brings, of course). Even if we assume the same skill level, the fights can go very differently.
D) Other factors can play a part – Lets say your fighting a player who is very close to you in skill, and is running a spec well suited for fighting yours. Lag, being distracted, or simple human error (pressing the wrong key for example) can determine the outcome of the fight – do we judge whats OP and whats not when we consider those factors? Of course not.

Team fights are just impossible to judge – there are far too many variables to track, any team fight is purely anecdotal.

If you wanted to get the best data possible (not the most accurate, mind you, just the best we as players can possibly attain), you’d have to set up duels with players with provable (defining “provable” is tricky, but possible within these constraints) skill. We’d have to see both players every detail (Spec, runes, sigils, etc), and test a variety of situations – fighting in a decapped point, defend and assault for both sides, skirmishing outside points, etc etc etc. Even then, the data would be highly anecdotal and not fit for making a true judgement call on whether or not a spec was OP.

This is why we have to trust anet to look at statistical data (which normalizes all the outliers above) to make balance decisions.

shimmerless.4560:

It’s not a bad idea on paper and I don’t see the harm in floating it but there’s two problems I can already see:

a) Encourages more CC spam the way mass cleansing encourages condi spam;
b) Singles out more “must have” utils

I don’t see A – you can already slot all stunbreakers if you want. In fact, you’d be limited to a single stunbreaker if you chose to “Build around” a particular utility line.
B ties in with A – the only time (hopefully) when a utility would be considered “must have” is when you’re traiting to slot 3 utilities in that line.

As an example, playing a thief I wouldn’t use Shadow trap as a stunbreaker – I think SS, RFI and IS are all way better. If I was running some sort of trap-centric build however (We’ll pretend that’s a thing), it would be considered “must have” because its the only stunbreaker in the trap line – taking at least 1 stunbreaker is currently considered a “must” as it is.

Like the title said, I’m suggesting every skill group should contain 1, and only 1 stunbreak.

Each class has traits that buff/encourage players to slot a particular line of utilities (Shouts, traps, spirits, venoms, signets, etc etc etc) – those traits feel like a waste when you absolutely cannot avoid taking a stunbreaker (IE, 90% of the time).

What do people think about guaranteeing that 1 (and only 1) utility in each utility line performs as a stunbreaker?

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

No, man.

Venoms need a tweak, not a massive buff. If they combine a couple of the traits so you don’t have to spread out so much to make them work it would be fine. You would run 2 utility venoms, 1 stun break and Basilisk as Elite.

If you didn’t have to spread out traits so much, then it would be fine.

That’s certainly an option – combining/reducing the number of traits needed to effectively run venoms could solve the issue, combined with slightly more useful venoms in the first place.

but if they retain the current structure then it should be powerful – If I’ve got 5 out of my 7 trait choices (Leaving only 2 adept traits not dedicated to venoms) focused entirely on venoms, shouldn’t they be fairly powerful and versatile?

Gwalchgwn.1659:

Residual venoms stunbreaking should have an ICD. Otherwise you’d have 4 stunbreakers all on 36s cooldown when traited. It’d be too much.

I should have clarified, but I Don’t see BV stun breaking (Due to the cast time)

An ICD unfortunately doesn’t work, because then it would be nigh useless.

I don’t think 3 stunbreakers on a 36s CD is too much because you’re also using the venom. You’re trading the versatility of using the venom at the right time with the ability to get out of being stunned right now, and hoping that the venom is useful.

They also aren’t as useful as a thief’s current stunbreak choices – RFI returns init, evades, and breaks snare/root. SS is a gap opener/closer, a condition cleanse on return, and potentially breaks 2 stuns. Inf Sig teleports you to your target.

It was disappointing to see Anet touting venom share changes in their preview video when they left venoms themselves in such a poor state.

The problem is a combination of factors -
- Most venoms on their own are lackluster for their CD
- Venom traits are all or nothing – there’s little benefit to taking 1 venom trait and 1 venom utility – you’ll typically go all in or ignore the traits entirely.
- Venoms take up utility slots, denying stun breakers and Condition Cleansing. Since you’re taking 4-5 venom-only traits, every non-venom utility you take is wasting all those trait choices.

Remember cantrip ele’s? Does anyone think they would have worked as well as they did if cantrips didn’t have a stunbreaker, protection, stability, and a condition cleansing mechanic among them? Because that’s how venoms are currently designed.

Having said that, here are some suggestions to fix venom traits (I Don’t have any good suggestions on how to fix venoms themselves, sadly)

Residual Venoms – In addition to the current effect, activating a venom now breaks stuns.

Leeching Venoms – In addition to the current effect,Triggering a venom removes/transfers a condition, 1s ICD

Quick Venoms (This one is “optional”, more brainstorming than anything else) – Reduce Venom recharge by 50%, reduce triggers per use by 33%, rounding up

Venomous strength – Small heal when activating a venom (instead of current effect)

Potent Poison – gain 1 stack of might (? Duration) each time you trigger a venom (instead of current effect)

Venomous Aura – Unchanged.

ekleenex.1654:

I wish they would just remove any condition counters… It’s really ruining this game.

Soft counters are fine – Hard counters are a problem.

It’s fine for a skill/trait/whatever to say “Playstyle X is less effective against me for x seconds”.

It’s silly for a skill/trait/whatever to say “Playstyle X is completely useless against me for X seconds”

This is of course a very general answer, there are some specific cases that don’t really fall into this (Endure pain comes to mind – even though it completely blocks physical damage for 4-5 seconds, I wouldn’t call it a hard counter)

Ashanor.5319:

evilapprentice.6379:

I said it earlier in the thread, and I’ll repeat it again.

This post is entirely pointless. The testing method is so flawed that any “data” gathered is 100% worthless. There is no element of control, and litte to no allowances for the mind boggling amount of variables one would have to account for if this were to be taken seriously. Thanks to all this, either side of the debate can reasonably use the “data” to support their argument.

The end result? 3 pages (and running) of back and forth arguments, almost entirely based on emotion and personal bias. A complete waste of time for any developer who might stumble upon this thread with hopes it contains helpful information. If players really care about the state of the game, please try and focus your efforts into information, testing and data that can actually aid the developers, rather than something like this.

Which is why we tried to ask them to simply post their supporting evidence instead of trying to argue. By the way, I am sure it was the point of many of them to make the thread as convoluted as possible to drown out any reasonable discussions.

I’m surprised you agree, as you’re one of the worse offenders.

When people post numbers, you reply with a vague “But you aren’t taking everything else into account”, without actually listing what “everything else” is.

You argue from emotion and state conjecture as if it were ironclad fact. You’re dismissive and rude to those who disagree with you, and your posts reek of bias. I get it, you love your class and want to defend it, that’s fine – the problem is you’re trying to come off as impartial when you’re clearly not.

Hopefully, anet has someone better qualified than either you or I to take everything into account (Including all the relevant statistics) and make a choice that’s healthy for the game.

Lupanic.6502:

Engineer has more or less the worst condition removal in the complete game. The possibilities are very limited for us to remove conditions and we can only remove one or 2 condtions at one time.
Without this trait we die in seconds against condition.

Perhaps change it to a limited set of conditions then?
Immunity to Burning, Torment, Confusion, Fear and Bleeding.
Gain 3s(?) of regeneration when Hit with Immobilize, Cripple, chill and poison, 3s ICD

I said it earlier in the thread, and I’ll repeat it again.

This post is entirely pointless. The testing method is so flawed that any “data” gathered is 100% worthless. There is no element of control, and litte to no allowances for the mind boggling amount of variables one would have to account for if this were to be taken seriously. Thanks to all this, either side of the debate can reasonably use the “data” to support their argument.

The end result? 3 pages (and running) of back and forth arguments, almost entirely based on emotion and personal bias. A complete waste of time for any developer who might stumble upon this thread with hopes it contains helpful information. If players really care about the state of the game, please try and focus your efforts into information, testing and data that can actually aid the developers, rather than something like this.

1) Fix weaponsets in general. Fix Death Blossom and Unload so that they make sense to use for both condition and direct damage specs (which would help fix P/P, and address a glaring weakness in D/D). Design PW so its fun and interesting to use. Fix LS so that it counters boon bunkers again without overly punishing classes that rely on a few long duration, long recast boons.
2)Fix the Steal “Obstructed” bug – I’m sick of seeing one of my major class mechanics go on CD but not actually steal(Bonus hate if I was relying on that stolen item or a trait to trigger).
3)Increase base init regen, change some of our boring initiative based traits into something that gives the class more flavor and spec diversity. No other class has to dedicate so many traits into actually using their skills. Thief DPS and burst has been nerfed repeatedly from day 1, yet the initiative regeneration rate has remained the same as it was at launch. The class is nigh unplayable with unmodified base initiative regen, and that’s just silly.

LeetSauce.7210:

you do not need the stun lock to capitalize on s/p damage, it makes you rely on more timing and positioning instead of button spamming, s/p is not a build for scrubs but if you know how to use it correctly the build/play style is solid and competitive in the current meta

You don’t need stunlock (it’s not like PW had stunlock before), but only truly awful players stand there and take the swings after the stun has ended because….why would you? Where can you position that prevents a player from walking/dodgerolling out of the way of the swings?

Your claim that “when properly played, the build/play style is solid and competitive in the current meta” is highly suspect, to the point of being outlandish. Please provide some sort of proof.

Jackal.8263:

evilapprentice.6379:

Zanryu.3417:

evilapprentice.6379:

Zanryu.3417:

evilapprentice.6379:

You need to more strictly define Point 3 – your list of examples is fulfilled by Cleansing ire and Greatsword.

Mmkay edited. Was a bit busy when I posted this thread. Got a build to post?

For that matter, anyone got a build to post?

GS M/S still seems like it comes close to filling those requirements – enough CC (not as much as M/S H of course), and not much AoE, but it’s still there.

Do you want to post the exact build so I can enter a queue with it and record the results?

Not particularly. I was simply trying to be helpful as far as your list of test cases went.

I have no idea who you are, nor how good you are, so I don’t see how you testing things can prove anything to me – perhaps you’re an amazing player and you make the class look OP when it’s not – perhaps you’re a really poor player and you make the class look UP when its not.

Even if I knew for a fact you were the well qualified for testing, generating a bit of anecdotal evidence isn’t going to help much either way. It doesn’t matter whose point you “prove” with this, conclusions drawn from it will be wrong due to improper testing. Anet has access to the statistics, they’ll hopefully use that information when they determine if any changes need to be done.

Evil, I don’t know you, but I respect you. The way you think and then transfer that thinking to a forum post is top notch. You are one of the few who makes an effort not to allow personal bias are feeling to stain the point you’re trying to make. It is a talent I do not have. Best of luck.

Eh, I’m trying – you can certainly go back in my history and see where I’ve been a childish prick, but it hasn’t helped. Thank you.

Zanryu.3417:

evilapprentice.6379:

Zanryu.3417:

evilapprentice.6379:

You need to more strictly define Point 3 – your list of examples is fulfilled by Cleansing ire and Greatsword.

Mmkay edited. Was a bit busy when I posted this thread. Got a build to post?

For that matter, anyone got a build to post?

GS M/S still seems like it comes close to filling those requirements – enough CC (not as much as M/S H of course), and not much AoE, but it’s still there.

Do you want to post the exact build so I can enter a queue with it and record the results?

Not particularly. I was simply trying to be helpful as far as your list of test cases went.

I have no idea who you are, nor how good you are, so I don’t see how you testing things can prove anything to me – perhaps you’re an amazing player and you make the class look OP when it’s not – perhaps you’re a really poor player and you make the class look UP when its not.

Even if I knew for a fact you were the well qualified for testing, generating a bit of anecdotal evidence isn’t going to help much either way. It doesn’t matter whose point you “prove” with this, conclusions drawn from it will be wrong due to improper testing. Anet has access to the statistics, they’ll hopefully use that information when they determine if any changes need to be done.

Zanryu.3417:

evilapprentice.6379:

You need to more strictly define Point 3 – your list of examples is fulfilled by Cleansing ire and Greatsword.

Mmkay edited. Was a bit busy when I posted this thread. Got a build to post?

For that matter, anyone got a build to post?

GS M/S still seems like it comes close to filling those requirements – enough CC (not as much as M/S H of course), and not much AoE, but it’s still there.

You need to more strictly define Point 3 – your list of examples is fulfilled by Cleansing ire and Greatsword.

Zacchary.6183:

That’s because there are none.

Don’t be so quick to judge Zacchary – I too have super secret knowledge which I cannot disclose the source of.

Fortus.6175:

Hype.8032:

Fortus.6175:

Hype.8032:

snip

WHo would have guess, a person playing more than one class, one build, right? Have you thought that maybe, just maybe, I dont play tanky guardian all the time? Is it even justifiable to hit 9-10k on a class with 11k hp, even if you are an assassin? No.

I dont care if the thief blows in about 2-3 hits, most of the time they stealth too quickly to be able to do anything about it anyways. I dont want more rock/scissor/paper gameplay. I want interactions! I dont want a game where the first one to jump on the other wins, and right now, given the lack of counters to stealth, a thief will have the jump on you 99% of the time.

No sir, this is not healthy for any game, I wont name any more games, but I can guarantee you that any non-FPS game where battle is decided by whoever gets the first jump or by rock/paper/scissor will get as much esport attentions as hello kitty.

And like I said, once again, you only want to take into consideration “top” players, which might not even represent the “skilled” bunch, nor the majority. Should we ignore the people in a democracy and let a selected few have the saying? No, it is called dictatorship, because I can assure you (been born in a dictatorship myself) they dont know whats best!

A 1000 ranked person has a much say in the matter as a non-1000, learn to accept that, or live to see that you will only see 1000 players in sPvP, which is [sadly] becoming a reality already.

Wow you played the dictatorship card! That’s awesome! That’s an auto-win move in my book.

The numbers you’re basing your argument on are wrong so I find fault with it. Fix them and we can have a deeper conversation. Annnnddddd….. since you asked, I think it is VERY JUSTIFIABLE AND DESIRED for an extreme glass cannon to be able to VERY QUICKLY dispatch of another extreme glass cannon. It is extremely fun knowing you have to be so aware of your surroundings to stay alive. It is very rewarding when you do it right. For people that don’t like living on the edge there are more balanced and even bunker builds available to them. This game is fast paced and it is awesome because of it.

Cheers!

P.S. I don’t think you understand what 99% means. That means 99 times out of a 100 fyi. You just claimed that out of 100 engagements the thief will have the jump 99 times. Four horned unicorn this time?

-sigh-, ok, I now understand whats going on, you just want to derail the thread, aka, old-school trolling.

Thanks sir but I will now refrain myself lowering to that. Thanks for the “arguments” but I believe there is nothing else you can add to this discussion since you are purposely trying to sabotage it.

I will however leave you with a note;

99% means 99 out of 100 times,meaning that whoever has stealth will engage first most of the time, hint; eles dont have stealth.

No, he’s pointing out the myriad flaws in your poor argument full of exaggeration, hyperbole, and outright lies. You don’t like it because it challenges the firmly anchored notions you have, which are incorrect on almost every level. Labeling him a troll is your only escape from having to actually try some of the things he’s suggested and see how very wrong you are. He’s been very calm and polite in tasking you to actually perform the things you’ve claimed are so commonplace that they’re ruining the game and you can’t deliver (because it can’t be done, not because of you specifically).

Your position on thieves in analogous to claiming thieves can fly – it’s not a discussion unless the basic premise is plausible, and yours just isn’t.

Incurafy.6329:

I agree with you completely, Evil, but it’s an MMO forum, this is what happens on practically every MMO that has ever been made.

“Class X is OP!”
“Class Y is destroying the game!”
“Class Z’s mechanic is broken!”

It sucks, but you’re never going to change that, it’s just what happens when people have a sense of entitlement, bias towards their own profession, and can’t manage to defeat a certain build or profession without help. Their thought process instantly turns to “this must be OP”, not “I must learn how to counter this”.

I agree, there are always going to be people who claim something is OP – that’s just the nature of the beast, as you said. I’m going to use some warrior examples below, because they’re simple and relatable – I’m not interested in debating if warriors are OP in this threat.

The point is be specific. Don’t say “Warriors are super mobile and have tons of stuns and can drop crazy amounts of burning and etc etc etc”,because you just describe facets of 3 different weapons, and warriors cant equip 3 weapons – You didn’t qualify anything.

Feel warriors are OP? Be super specific – “I feel 0/10/30/0/30 Hambow warriors running zerkers ammy and zerkers stance are too powerful because…” then go into your reasons. Talk numbers – point out what you think supports the build in question being OP. Explain how you tried to counter (because you can’t complain about something if you haven’t at least tried to counter it) and why those counters didn’t work, and how they would work against other classes filling the same role/ playing in the same style.

There are always going to be the need for further balance chances – even if the game was nigh perfectly balanced, Some class would have something a little overtuned that probably needed a once over. As players, we’re going to want to discuss it. Just do so in a manner which actually helps the developers, rather than just hyperbole, exaggerations and misinformation.

hooma.9642:

evilapprentice.6379:

hooma.9642:

whats the purpose of this thread? defend lazy balance politic? if want blame someone blame the devs who refuse to shave more regularly. all the discussions are just a symptom of very bad balancing in matter of quality and quantity

“The developers are bad so I’m ok with people making bad arguments” isn’t a position that helps anyone in the long run.

The purpose of this thread is “If you really want things to change, you need to accurately represent issues with as little hyperbole and misinformation as possible.”

It might be momentarily cathartic to come here and complain about how broken something is, but all you end up doing is wasting your time, the time of the people who reply to you, and the time of the developers. Every thread they look into that turns into asinine hyperbole thrown out by both sides is time that could have been better spent reading well constructed arguments that do their best to accurately represent the issues. If you actually want things to change, this is how you should approach the issue – it’s not a guarantee that things will change, but we can’t entirely blame the devs if our feedback is nigh worthless.

but thats natural. first u mention that something is right and maybe broken and the more and more time it takes to fix that the more and more the ppl get aggro. so yeah its a dev fault.

there a two ways to balance something.
1. big balance changes but less frequent
2. small changes but high frequent

so it isnt a solution to make small changes with a big timeframe between. until the devs understand that there will always be ppl who get more and more aggro.

And those people are just further inflating the timeframe between patches by taking time that could be spent offering/exploring solutions and instead squandering it. It doesn’t matter how justified you are/feel – actively contributing to the thing you’re complaining about is very counterproductive.

hooma.9642:

whats the purpose of this thread? defend lazy balance politic? if want blame someone blame the devs who refuse to shave more regularly. all the discussions are just a symptom of very bad balancing in matter of quality and quantity

“The developers are bad so I’m ok with people making bad arguments” isn’t a position that helps anyone in the long run.

The purpose of this thread is “If you really want things to change, you need to accurately represent issues with as little hyperbole and misinformation as possible.”

It might be momentarily cathartic to come here and complain about how broken something is, but all you end up doing is wasting your time, the time of the people who reply to you, and the time of the developers. Every thread they look into that turns into asinine hyperbole thrown out by both sides is time that could have been better spent reading well constructed arguments that do their best to accurately represent the issues. If you actually want things to change, this is how you should approach the issue – it’s not a guarantee that things will change, but we can’t entirely blame the devs if our feedback is nigh worthless.

Is the Oct 29th patch even going to include any PvP changes?

I can see King of the Hill working fairly well with how the game has been designed so far, as long as the capture mechanism is an object you interact with to “flip” the point rather than a Capture Point circle you stand in to cap/decap.
- Bunkers will still have a role in guarding the flip mechanism
- Burst will still have a role in trying to dislodge/distract bunkers from guarding the flip mechanism, or going after the opposing teams burst.
- Support and harrasment specs will have a role in disrupting enemy “supply lines” (Ressing players traveling back to the hill from their home point), and possibly dislodging players guarding the “flip” point and delaying them.
- With only 1 point to hold, comebacks from large point deficits will be possible – a team will have time to examine and adjust their strategies and hopefully re-take the point.
- Most importantly with the “flip” objective being an intractable object rather than a capture point you stand in, the dynamic of holding and flipping the point will be changed enough to shake up the current meta without being so extreme as to force balance changes which are currently all balanced around capture point.

The hyperbole has to stop. Far too many of the posts here aren’t about properly examining the issues the game is having, and making suggestions to potentially shave said issues – they’re about kittening about how Class X is completely and irrevocably unstoppable, and needs to be nerfed into the ground. There is no class that is currently so ridiculously OP that it cannot be stopped, and needs to be nerfed into the ground.

That being said, there are currently classes with some issues, which range from minor to moderate, which should be examined and potentially shaved down a bit to see if minor tweaks can’t fix the issues.

Coming to the boards and claiming that said class is so ridiculously OP that it breaks the game doesn’t help anyone, because it just isn’t true – the discussion turns into a kittenty game of attack and defense that spreads misinformation on both sides (“Class X is unstoppable”, “There’s nothing wrong with Class X”, etc) where no one wins – not the players, and not the developers.

If you simply must bring up something you feel is OP, explain why in detail – use hard numbers, specify trait/weapon/rune/sigil/utility choices, and speak in specific terms concerning the class you’re talking about. Compare its overall effectiveness to other classes attempting to fill the same role. Bring up your thoughts on countering the spec, and explain specifically why they don’t work against class V running Spec W and using XYZ runes, sigils and utilities. If you’re defending class X, follow the same rules – so we can have a discussion that dissects the issues people are having directly and specifically, and so we don’t get 5 pages of forum rambling that ultimately amounts to nothing constructive.

The cripple duration on dancing dagger in PvP matches and HotM (Might be PvE and WvW as well, but I haven’t tested there) does not match the tooltip – it lasts roughly half the listed duration instead.

Fortus.6175:

Counterplay;

Stealth is the biggest offender IMO. Lets take for example stealth in various games.

Usually stealth is a clutch, that comes with handicaps or interesting ways to counter. I will use the WoW and LoL example. In Wow stealth was permanent, with the draw back that if you blatantly walked in front of someone in an open field, you would have a great chance of being visible for a split of second. This created a counterplay wher eyou would actively look around for the thief, you would try to get in their shoes and step where they stepped. You knew that they were most likely going to come from the sides or behind. You could position yourself and your team accordingly, to make it so that they have to think about it.

And this game doesn’t require you to have a target to activate any of your skills, like something like WoW does – You do the same thing in this game. D/P – SB thief stealthed? I wonder where he might be trying to go…. (hint, it’s behind you) – use your autoattacks and AoE. See a black powder pop up out of nowhere? There’s a thief extending his stealth, and lucky you, he just told you exactly where he was before he leapt – keep a mental note of roughly how much longer he’ll have stealth, and play accordingly.

Rogue felt sneaky but at the same time vulnerable, if he failed at it he had a skill to go into forced stealth at a very long CD, so it was a meaningful skill that couldnt be spammed. Movement speed was lower than normal and under no reason could they take 90% to 100% of your life in 1 ability no matter how squishy you were. (this is coming from a glass cannon mage/resto druid, which reached 2k arena rating).

What Game are you playing where a thief takes 90% – 100% of your HP in 1 strike? This is beyond an exaggeration, it’s an outright lie. A 9-10k BS is GC vs GC blowing every utility to boost their damage and having traits slotted that are entirely dedicated to buffing that one strike. Even then, it’s likely out of 13-14k HP minimum- if you built your character with 10k HP (only possible with 3 classes, btw), then that’s on you – you made the choice to be a squishy DPS monster with all its associated strengths and weaknesses, you need to watch out for other squishy DPS monsters.

In most balanced games, stealth is by itself the reward!. Here? You get movement speed, insta nukes that cant be blocked by nothing, you get to spam it, you can heal on it, you can still have access to plenty of hard hitting skills that require no more than pressing #2 without minding your positioning, without any drawback except a couple of seconds CD in which you can repeat it all over again.

In this game, stealth is a liability! You can’t contest points in stealth, and seeing as CP is the only game type, that’s a pretty big deal. You also can’t launch any attacks and retain stealth (except a few Passive-style AoE’s like choking gas and caltrops).
You only get movement speed if you trait for it…like in other games I’ve played. Stealth in this game lasts 3-4s, as opposed to other games where it lasts 30s or is permanent – if thieves moved more slowly in stealth, they’d never be able to maneuver behind an opponent, because nobody worth their salt stands still in a PvP match, Especially when a thief stealth’s near them.
There isn’t a single stealth skill that’s unblockable, so I don’t know where you got that from. Neither are they spammable, because landing a stealth attack gives you revealed for 4s.
You’re still complaining about Heart seeker? It’s almost 2014 man, people learned how Heart seeker worked over a year ago.

This reads like you’ve never fought a thief, much less rolled one and tried it out. Go roll a thief, play for 20 minutes, and see how ridiculously inaccurate everything you’ve said is.

Kolly.9872:

evilapprentice.6379:

Kolly.9872:

the only fix I would see working on FS\LS is that it should activate LS only when FS actually hits the target.

This is a lose/lose proposition. While I’m not against the spirit of the change, it would allow Actual evade spam. Forums kittens would be up in arms about how thieves “evade everything” with their kittenty anectodal evidence, and It would be hard to counter in a logical manner, due to general forum IQ.

I see what you mean. And I agree that it would bring even more a FS spam meta for dodging, but not a lot different from SB skill 3 or pistol whip evade or D\D skill 3 evade.
If A-net wouldn’t be so lazy they could easily fix it by raising up the initiative cost on FS by 1 and lowering the ini cost on LS by 1. The total cost of the combo would be 5 ini like now, but it would prevent in part a mindless spamming of the only FS.

I disagree – FS evade is much different than Disabling shot, PW, and DB.

DB, as an evade, is garbage – there are periods during the animation when you’re open. Any half decent player will exploit them and destroy you. PW is…laughable at the moment – when it gets fixed, we can talk about it. DS’s evade is solid, but it doesn’t facilitate something like LS on hit (In this proposed change), so there is a noticeable difference.

Valentin.2073:

warriors are not OP. you just dont know how to deal with them. these qq threads about warriors are getting old and boring.

next please…

Warrior is a little OP.

“Ridiculously OP” is an exaggeration, but warrior clearly has some problems at the moment. They mostly stem from the interaction of Healing Signet, Adrenal health, and cleansing ire.

Once that anomaly has been acknowledged and addressed, we can re-examine other warrior “issues” (which may or may not be issues, once we’ve adressed HS+AH+CI).

Kolly.9872:

the only fix I would see working on FS\LS is that it should activate LS only when FS actually hits the target.

This is a lose/lose proposition. While I’m not against the spirit of the change, it would allow Actual evade spam. Forums kittens would be up in arms about how thieves “evade everything” with their kittenty anectodal evidence, and It would be hard to counter in a logical manner, due to general forum IQ.

Noobkaka.5067:

I want S/D to get buffed and S/P buffed.
Also P/P should get reworked, it just flat out sucks compared to the other weapon combos.

S/D doesn’t really need a big buff – they should fix LS so that is properly counters boon bunkers without over penalizing other specs that use boons, but beyond that, it’s ok. There can certainly be some fixes (DD’s cripple lasting the listed duration, not missing on targets 200 away from you and moving in a straight line, etc), but other than that the set is still solid.

Obviously, PW needs some attention after it was revealed that a programming error was the only thing making the skill even marginally useful. AFAIK, the dev’s acknowledged PW is currently in a kittenty state, and are looking into ways to fix it.

I wouldn’t hold my breath on a P/P rework – thieves have been pointing out how poorly designed the set is for 8-10 months, and it’s still where it is. A fix will come eventually, I’m sure, but the Oct 29th patch is wishful thinking on an extreme scale – you have better luck with your states lottery.

Sanduskel.1850:

nevertheless, the rest of us will still enjoy winning with our thieves, lol!

Oh San, you’re such a card! Always with the silly comments and lack of knowledge of the class in general.

I wouldn’t doom and gloom though, there isn’t much more they can do to nerf thief without making it entirely unplayable. And as bad as that would be for a few months, if they make thief unplayable, they’ll eventually have to fix them, like warriors.

Not that I want to be OP, but I’d rather be OP than be nerfed without cause over and over and over again.

This probably isn’t the comment you’re looking for, but why bother with S/P until PW is functional again?

Also –
10/0/0/30/30 with quick recovery, quick pockets, and hastened replenishment (with withdraw).

Thedenofsin.7340:

Dardamaniac.1295:

Its not the stun, animations with hammer are SO obvious..Its the healing signet that needs nerf, they wont, they prefer putting in every class a huge amount of poison than nerfing what they buffed

Animations are totally obvious, I agree. However, coming out of a stealth zerg, you never see it coming and bam you’re stunned/mezzed and dead in like 3-4 seconds.

The healing signet does seem powerful. But this is all nerf talk. I’m curious about what to do with the professions/abilities we have today to counter it.

Or is there no counter?

It’s not about their being no counter, it’s about the level of effectiveness granted. Warriors currently have spec options that make them more effective for the role they choose to take than other classes taking the same role. It doesn’t take being unkillable to be OP – if your spec is more effective and forgiving at nearly any role it takes than other classes trying to fill a comparable role, it needs toning down.

Dardamaniac.1295:

Its not the stun, animations with hammer are SO obvious..Its the healing signet that needs nerf, they wont, they prefer putting in every class a huge amount of poison than nerfing what they buffed

It’s not any 1 thing – it’s a complicated interaction with Healing Signet, Cleansing Ire and Adrenal health at the center, especially when combined with Berserkers stance, which is an automatic slot in every single build at this point.

There are other peripheral issues that might need looking into (Such as missed burst skills not removing adrenaline, each weapons burst skill having its own CD AND being on a potentially 7s cd), but its hard to judge until Anet addresses just how forgiving and effective HS and 20 points in Defense makes a warrior compared to every other class.

Tyler Chapman.1832:

Lots of cool ideas here that I’ve been using in my arguments as of late. Been pushing to adjust the meta quite a bit.

I sincerely hope you aren’t referring to any of the thief changes here.

While I appreciate all the effort you put into your suggestion Super Riceman, I wouldn’t want to see any of them implemented.

The change to haste isn’t a bad one, I’ll admit, but there are bigger fish to fry at the moment. The same goes for scorpion wire, ricochet and ice drake venom.

Your HS change kills Dagger mainhand as a melee set – if sticking close to a thief is all you need to do to neuter his burst, other melee will have a tremendous advantage – Dagger MH will no longer bring much pressure or be very dangerous, except on unsuspecting opponents (which we already have BS for).

The PW Suggestion was made before the Oct 15th patch, so it doesn’t really apply anymore – PW now has bigger issues.

The changes to vital shot and unload manage to keep the issues with P/P (AA and Dual skill at odds for damage source), while also ruining P/D as a condition set.

Hard to catch change won’t help a thief when he’s CC’d, which is the intent of the trait. Getting init back would potentially be nice, but if I’m taking hard to catch, it’s to get an additional save from CC.

LS change is just impossible – how many non-autoattacks can you avoid with a .5 evade? Unless I’m fighting in a 3 on 1, being focus fired, and have impeccable timing, I’ll be stealing 1 boon at best most of the time. S/D needs a zerkers jewel to do respectable damage, and you just designed LS to only really steal boons in team fights where you’re the primary target/wading through a ton of AoE….things that you don’t want when you’re running a zerkers jewel. 1 boon automatically, plus 1 per non-AA dodged (to a maximum of 2 or 3, lets say), could work however.

Kolly.9872:

Incurafy.6329:

I don’t mean anything bad by this at all, but if you think that any of those builds with the exception of the 20/20/0/0/30 one are viable in a competitive environment then you have no idea what you’re talking about. :S

The two builds mentioned by infantrydev are the only two real viable builds that we have, and I would even go as far as to say that the 10/30/0/0/30 D/P build isn’t even that great since you don’t even have that much burst damage and hardly any survivability.

To not be a kitten and answer your questions though, the builds work roughly like this:

10/30/0/30/0 S/D + SB: Far point assaulter and roamer, uses AA, Infiltrator’s Strike and Flanking/Larcenous Strike for great sustain and mobility and to remove boons from boon bunkers. Can survive in the team fight if necessary thanks to high evasion and 30 in Acrobatics. Can also apply heavy damage and poison with SB when necessary.

10/30/0/0/30 D/P + SB: Same deal again, far point assaulter and roamer, uses burst combo to bring down low health targets and turn a fight in your teams favour. Cannot survive in the middle of the team fight but is able to apply heavy damage and poison with SB until a burst opportunity arises.

I can provide links to these builds if you’d like.

This!

Also the only way to prove that a build works in a competitive environment, is to show it with a video.
The only thief’s builds that work at the moment are those 2 posted by Incurafy.
Why? Because they are the only thief’s builds that we are seeing everytime a thief is playing a Final right now.
In the PAX finals as an exemple there were Lady Nag Nag 10 30 0 30 0 and Caed 10 30 0 0 30

I would say that also 10 0 0 30 30 s\d sb is a good build but since no one is showing it in a real tournament I cannot prove it right.

So please show proves or stop saying that Venom Share, D\P perma stealth with health regen or P\D cond dmg build are competitive builds, even if they “came out of your mind”

10/0/0/30/30 s/d sb isn’t a bad build, but it has too many glaring weaknesses for the current meta, the biggest one being it doesn’t do enough damage to kill even the kittentiest played warrior with 20 points in Defense and HS. Its TTK is too long, allowing even a semi-coordinated team to overwhelm you. The only appreciable benefit is you can keep a point flipped in a 2 on 1 for a -long- time and still escape.

Ashanor.5319:

TheGuy.3568:

Ashanor.5319:

Oh, you again. It’s hilarious that I recognize so many names from this thread as whiners from the warrior forums a few months back. Same old people still trying to perpetuate the myths and get classes nerfed.

What about what I said was wrong? So far you fall right into what I said in the post. smh. I will say it again if you quote me read me. If not whats the point of having a discussion? Read your other post in this topic. We do not need to have a discussion. It will just lead to some type of back a forth with you insulting me randomly and not discussing the facts. Not doing that. So I read your post. I disagree. Discussion between you and me done.

Except, I and many others have discussed the facts many times. Your side fails to see the facts and just screams things like… “but heeling signet r moar powerful than othur passive heels /drool” and then we explain why that is alright then your side says “but heeling signet r moar powerful than othur passive heels /drool”. It’s a never ending cycle of bads perpetuating myths and not listening to reason.

Looking through your post history for this specific thread, I don’t see much of an explanation, just derisive BS and “Our side is right, you’re a noob if you disagree” – maybe I just missed it.

My stance is that HS + AH +CI need to be looked at – the passive healing warriors get for no investment into healing power and a mere 20 points in traitline is a bit much. It facilitates too much, and is much too forgiving. There are other possible issues, but it’s hard to judge accurately until this interaction is looked into.

As just an anectode (which isn’t solid proof of course, but certainly says something), I rolled a 0/10/30/0/30 Hambow warrior last night, and fought a couple fights with a necro 1 on 1 – it was embarrassing. The spec was so forgiving I won most of the fights, despite a LONG list of issues with my spec, my amulet, and how well I played.

- While I got the major parts of the spec right, I’m sure I messed up some of the less obvious traits.
- I was wearing a soldiers amulet – this isn’t a bad idea in general, but against a condi focused necro, the toughness was a complete waste and a berserkers ammy would have been much better
- We were in skyhammer, and after he got effortlessly demolished on point a few times, he started using the terrain to kite me me around very effectively.
- My runes weren’t the best choice for how poorly I was playing.
- I was using fast cast, and not used to the 600 range/240 radius on ES, so I whiffed that a bunch of times.
- Having never played warrior, I mixed up skills more than a few times – wasting Arcing arrow when I meant to use smoldering arrow, wasting fierce blow because I meant to use Hammer shock, etc.
- My reaction time was fairly slow, because I was still new to all my skills.
- 2 of my utilities were potentially sub-par – i was of course using zerkers stance, but the other 2 I just guessed at (Dolyak and balanced stance).

I couldn’t tell you if he was an amazing player, but he most certainly wasn’t trash – he knew what he was doing to a fair degree, and tried desperately to keep me away from him. He got better and better with every fight, and I just kept plodding along and killing him. The only fights I lost were ones where I made a laundry list of mistakes – missing 80% of my ES’s, not switching to Lbow to effortlessly drop conditions with combustion shot, forgetting to break out of fear, forgetting to use Berserker’s stance before he bombed me with 6-7 conditions, letting myself be kited around one of skyhammer holes… it was painful to be a part of.

I can’t imagine making that many mistakes on any other class I had just started playing and still coming out victorious.

Zanryu.3417:

If how I feel doesn’t matter then neither does how anyone else feels on either side of the subject. I don’t believe the combination of those skills to be as overpowered as you seem to think. Healing Signet and Adrenal Health are great together but HS is weak to burst and poison. Any damaging condition will help to keep the pressure up, Torment and Bleed can help eat through the heals as you’re dealing damage to the Warrior. He either has to tank it out or use HS which takes away the passive heal making him easier to deal with. It may be hard to stack a specific condition but the Warrior has no control over which conditions are cleansed.

I’ll just run my 30/30/30/30/30 spec with access to great burst, poison, and enough damaging conditions to overpower both berserks and cleansing ire. Fantastic advice, I don’t know how I possibly didn’t think of it first.

A great way to get around Earthshaker is movement. If you move around it becomes difficult to hit you as it’s a ground target skill. That, with blind and dodgeroll can allow a skilled player to dodge it often enough. Stunbreaks can also be slotted to get out of the stun, should it land.

Oh man, moving out of a 240 radius with 600 range, why didn’t I think of that? Obvious its possible for my melee spec to do so in .75s. all my stunbreakers are on a 10s cooldown as well. I’ve been such a fool. Whats the CD on a dodged Burst skill that costs 0 adrenaline again?

Cleansing Ire only works if it connects and Berserkers Stance doesn’t affect conditions already on you along with having a long cooldown. Once it wears off it’s unlikely it’ll be off cooldown until another fight. Constant damage and conditions all help to eat through HS. Something with high burst will have significant impact against the Warrior. Even with the HoT aspect Poison is still effective at reducing the healing it grants, even if temporarily. At the very least you can force a burst skill prematurely if the Warrior needs to cleanse conditions.

Again you’re right – I’ll use my infinite endurance and 10s stunbreaks to ensure I don’t ever get hit with a burst skill. You can even dodge combustion shot!

That 4-5 seconds isn’t immunity to CC or conditions.

Again, countered handily with my 30/30/30/30/30 spec.

Once Endure Pain ends it can’t be used for a very long time and 2k HP is not a large amount at all. It’s decent, but 2k HP in a multi person fight goes away pretty quickly once utilities are used up.

Oh of course, I just have to bring multiple people to fight 1 non-bunker – how silly of me.

Immunity to conditions is not immunity to damage, remember how Warriors are weak to burst damage? You can still capitalize on that. Just because conditions are useless for a period of time doesn’t mean you can’t negate HS+AH heals. Cleansing Ire will only cleanse 3 conditions max. If you hit a target.

Yes, warriors running soldiers amulets and using unsuspecting foe to boost their damage are very weak to burst damage, with their high armor and highest base HP in the game.

I disagree. You don’t really offer any argument here, so I see no need to offer a counter-argument. You know, since you can’t really counter something that isn’t there.

I’m surprised you can see anything at all with the blinders you’re wearing.

When I point out their condition immunity and cleansing, you suggest burst. When I point out their high hp, armor, HPS, and multiple way to buy time with stuns, blocks, and psuedo immunes, you point out how they’re not immune to conditions.

So I get it – run 30/30/30/30/30 with my amulet that gives me + 798 to every stat and I’ll be fine.

Zanryu.3417:

I’ve seen it. I’ve seen many horrible arguments for different classes, builds, and mechanics and people crying out for a Warrior nerf are no different. The burst skills can be dodged and are affected by blind. The Warrior can’t use them while stunned, so once stunbreaks and Stability are gone your team can proceed to stun the Warrior or immobilize him. I’ll grant you that skills can be used during immobilize, but anything but longrange skills become very limited making immobilize a very effective method of keeping a Warrior in check.

You’ve literally just described every class – blind makes them miss, they run out stunbreakers. Explaining the basic mechanics of the game is not a defense.

Honestly the sustain obtained from putting points into Defense is nice, but I have to assume you’re referring to the Cleansing Ire trait and the adrenaline based heal, as you specifically mentioned 20 points. If that’s not the case, then please tell me what is. Every class has access to toughness traits, though the secondary boost to stats varies. In any case, while Warrior get a fair amount of sustain from that tree, I wouldn’t say it’s overpowered. People have issues with Healing Signet and Adrenal Health, along with the condition removal from Cleansing Ire. So far that seems to be the main complaint, but those skills are far from unbeatable.

How you feel doesn’t matter – like you said, I want reasons. Explain to me while you feel it isn’t overpowered? My position is that the combination of HS + AH + CI facilitates too much for warriors. HS’s only weakness is poison, since you can’t interrupt it, and CI makes it hard to get poison to stick, unless you have constant access to it on a weaponset that does solid direct damage to keep the pressure up. It helps if that weapon is also ranged, since trying to melee a hammer warrior who can keep hitting Earthshaker every few seconds until it connects (among other reasons why you don’t want to melee them) is a nightmare to deal with.

Blind, Stun, Immobilize, Poison, and burst damage are all ways of getting through a Warriors defenses. Assuming the Warrior is using Healing Signet for the passive he effectively has no burst heal, unless he wants to waste the super duper amazing passive heal everyone hates. Poison alone will mess with that, if the warrior uses a Burst skill you can go in for another Condition which will eat up his heals. If you’re a burst class, unleash hell on them. If they pop Endure Pain wait 4-5 seconds while dodging or applying CC effects and get back to applying damage. Healing Signet effectively takes away the ability to burst heal, making burst damage and condition damage both highly effective so long as the Warrior can’t get out of it.

Cleansing Ire, Berserkers stance. Every CC and every block translates into more healing time. HS also takes away the ability to interrupt your heal, and is the least effected by poison (except heals that specifically remove poison before the healing) because of the HoT aspect of it.

A Warrior 4-5 seconds of no damage, 8-10 seconds of no conditions, and 8-10 seconds of Stability. This is without taking the trait that activates Balanced Stance or Endure Pain under certain conditions. Stability only lasts so long and can be corrupted. Endure Pain only lasts up to 5 seconds and conditions can still be applied. Berserker Stance only lasts up to 10 seconds, does not reduce direct damage taken, and does not affect conditions already applied.

4-5 seconds of no damage = 1600-2000 healing + whatever AH healed. 8-10 seconds of immunity to conditions is 8-10 seconds of uncounterable full HPS from HS and AH, and no way to peel/reduce the warriors effectiveness with snares/debuffs. Berserkers stance doesn’t need to affect conditions already applied, you’ve got Cleansing Ire for that.

Warriors have access to good stun abilities and a fair ability to survive, but I wouldn’t call them overpowered. They can be countered. They aren’t these unkillable monstrosities that just do not die.

I’m not complaining they’re unkillable. They just have far too much sustain without having to put a single point into healing power. Sustain is fine…when you spec properly for it.

I will now read the rest of the thread. Some people man, some people.. Tisk tisk.

As you should of before you expressed an opinion that was clearly contradicted by the posts you didn’t bother to read.

Kwll.1468:

Duka.5864:

Only thing that Thief need is really good player!

Exactly. Somone needs to explain to me how thieves are so bad on one hand but on the other hand are pretty well represented in high level tournament play.

Very few of them are running stealth based builds – the majority of players use S/D.
Dee Jay’s point isn’t “4s revealed makes thieves SOOO bad”, his argument was “It makes no sense”.

4s revealed was a counter to stealth spam in WvW when culling was still an issue. Why it made its way into TPvP, I’ll never know. Why it was rescinded in WvW, but remained in TPvP is an even bigger mystery – in capture point play, stealth has alot of weaknesses – can’t contest a point, easy to predict where you’re headed thanks to point-centric play, etc. It’s not worthless, but it’s not the OP god mode some players would label it.

Furthermore (as others have pointed out), it really kittens with your timing if you play both WvW and PvP – you get very used to rhythms and timing. Adding another second in TPvP is a pretty big deal when you start landing CnD’s with .5s left on your reveal timer because your used to it being a second shorter.

Zanryu.3417:

I don’t have time to read through the rest of this thread, but I have read the first page. I’m going to sum this up with a statement I got from a thief when discussing the current state of stealth.

“It’s in the game, so it’s not broken. That’s how it’s supposed to be.”

Nobody ever seems to give a legitimate argument and when met with a counter argument they get raged at or told Warrior are OP without any actual math or experience to back it up. I’ve had this happen to me personally, and while it’s laughable, it shows how pitiful some people can truly be when it comes to the game.

If you think Warriors are overpowered give a good example of how they’re broken. If you can’t do that, kindly save your crying for the next fotm class/build.

How would you know if anyone made any good arguments when you didn’t read more than 50% of the responses?

Also, I’ve NEVER seen anyone claim that stealth is fine “because it’s in the game” (you might notice my name on ALOT of posts there as well, so it’s not like I’m never over in that section). The argument usually goes “There’s lots of counters to stealth – here I will list them for you”. Further advice is to roll a thief and find the weaknesses in the spec that’s giving you so much trouble.

You’ve contributed nothing to the discussion, specifically because you felt the need to respond without actually reading through it.

People have pointed out the hard numbers on HS and AH. They’ve pointed out how hard it is to get poison to stick on a class that drops 2-3 conditions every 7-10 seconds just by using their burst skills they’d be using anyway. They’ve pointed out the insane sustain 20 in defense and HS gives a warrior – but how would you know? You didn’t bother to read through the thread.

Ryan.8367:

evilapprentice.6379:

Master of Timespace.2548:

evilapprentice.6379:

Siva Mira.3546:

I think Guardian and Warrior need Stealth too, just saying.

Why not? They’ve already given it to mesmer, ranger and engineer.

On a more serious note, I’m not one to advocate that every class have access to everything, but the lack of burning is a serious hindrance for thief condi specs. How many effective thief condi specs do you see in TPvP?

If you said 0, congratulations, you are correct sir. The problem isn’t necessarily only solvable via burning, but it is the easiest solution, and the one anet might kitten up the least.

We don’t need more viable condi builds into this game.

They designed thieves with condition based weapons – P/D, P/P to some extent, and D/D’s dual skill are all clearly intended for condition damage – why should we have non-functioning weapons because conditions are currently in a bad place?

Ask Anet to fix the overall issue, don’t deny a class a functioning condi playstyle because of extraneous issues.

I don’t think you realize how overpowered you would be if you were to get access to burning. Simple and plain, thief condi dominates already.

I’m talking sPvP, not WvW – I have no knowledge of WvW.

In sPvP, condi thieves are kind of a joke. Also, I’m not advocating for Burning specifically, just some design choices that make it more viable.

Jesiah.2457:

Omfg … all I have to say is … LOL!!

Arenanet at their absolute finest, hahaha. PvP oriented game my ass!! XD

Edit: Though, I’m sorry that happened to your rank. But really … don’t sweat the leader board rankings, they’re incredibly stupid as is. 19-1 = #1 spot forever while people who grind hundreds of games can’t clear it.

Leaderboards mean nothing, just like “Qualifying Points” did. Arenanet is just too kitten tryhard at being unique and their pride, as well as corporate greed, (PvE centric for generating $$ anyone?) is effectively destroying this “PvP game”.

I think he’s more concerned with the extremely poor quality of his teammates and opponents. It’s crap like this (along with a bunch of other issues) that has made me entirely avoid SoloQ since it’s inception. This game will be fun for an hour or two of hotjoin nonsense for another few months, but if the major issues facing TPvP and SPvP in general aren’t addressed by then, I can’t see much of a PvP population remaining.

Master of Timespace.2548:

evilapprentice.6379:

Siva Mira.3546:

I think Guardian and Warrior need Stealth too, just saying.

Why not? They’ve already given it to mesmer, ranger and engineer.

On a more serious note, I’m not one to advocate that every class have access to everything, but the lack of burning is a serious hindrance for thief condi specs. How many effective thief condi specs do you see in TPvP?

If you said 0, congratulations, you are correct sir. The problem isn’t necessarily only solvable via burning, but it is the easiest solution, and the one anet might kitten up the least.

We don’t need more viable condi builds into this game.

They designed thieves with condition based weapons – P/D, P/P to some extent, and D/D’s dual skill are all clearly intended for condition damage – why should we have non-functioning weapons because conditions are currently in a bad place?

Ask Anet to fix the overall issue, don’t deny a class a functioning condi playstyle because of extraneous issues.

Master of Timespace.2548:

This is really just a general problem of Bunker Wars 2. Bunker is basically always stronger than most damage builds. Even then, thief is still the most viable tpvp glass cannon. Mesmer is okish too, as shown by Helseth who did quite well during the King of Mists tourny.

I’m not arguing thief TPvP viability, I’m just pointing out the issue with reducing LS to 1 boon steal.

Anet saw boon bunkers had no counter, so they introduced one. The counter was fairly well designed for that intent (it did a good job limiting boon bunkers, but not completely shutting them down).

Then they judged that stealing 2 boons was too much for some reason (probably because of the ability to rapidly strip boons from classes that couldn’t generate a ton of boons constantly like a boon bunker could) – instead of trying to find a good middle ground that kept the skills original intention (Soft counter to boon bunkers), without overly penalized other classes that made use of a smaller range of boons, they kicked it back to where it was when boon bunkers were a problem, reintroducing the original problem.

I don’t see how they failed to predict that, I’m not a game developer and I called this back when they posted the preview where they stated they were thinking about reducing LS back to 1 boon steal.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Ashanor.5319:

…

Warrior is in a weird spot right now because it’s not horribly OP at top tiers (teams only take 1-2 warriors usually)

It seems a bit off that your justification for a format that at best leaves 3 classes completely unrepresented is that teams “usually” only take “1-2 warriors”. This isn’t proof that they’re OP by any means, but it does weaken your overall argument.

The sentence “Warriors aren’t horribly OP, they only take 1-2 slots in a 5 slot team with 8 possible class choices to fill those slots” makes it sound like you’re saying they’re obviously not OP because people don’t bring 4 of them.

Ashanor.5319:

overpowered warrior myth.

Emphasis mine.

The fact that you could post that makes it hard to take you seriously.

The question isn’t “Is warrior overpowered” – that question has been answered with a resounding yes (Source: Common sense, the current pvp scene, not being blind)

The question is “How overpowered is Warrior” and as a corollary “How can we make adjustments that leave the class in an effective place”. I agree with Burr that there’s alot of hyperbole and misinformation regarding exactly how good warriors are at certain things (Welcome to over a year of being a thief, btw), but there are issues. 20 points in defense (usually 30, but 20 is the min) and HS needs closer examination. Once that issue is addressed, there may be further things to look into (burst skills not costing adrenaline and only going a reduced CD when missed, as opposed to every other class mechanic in the game being the primary one), but it’ll be easier to judge just how powerful that is when warriors of all specs stop gaining insane sustain that fuels multiple effective spec choices from 20 points in 1 trait line.

I’m just guessing since I don’t WvW, but I assume a single target attrition build doesn’t do well in Zerg v Zerg – especially when you have the option to instead run D/D, which will allow you to drop bleeds on up to 5 targets per DB.