Guild Wars 2

Viking Jorun.5413:

Solution: don’t use stealth, place stealth traps everywhere.

I don’t use stealth, but you’ve entirely missed the point.

Re-read the above where I point out the issue is with the design philosophy behind introducing hard counters targeted completely are 1 class.

Viking Jorun.5413:

evilapprentice.6379:

Viking Jorun.5413:

evilapprentice.6379:

Why take Hidden thief over leeching venoms? You’re running 4 venoms.

For the burst capabilities, and it essentially gives you a free condition removal on steal.

Except Leeching venoms makes you much burstier. Hit 5, steal, and now you have the CnD damage and all the leeching, and everything you were getting from stealth.

I can’t imagine 6 init every 21 seconds (the savings from not having to CnD when you steal) is better than the potential to trigger leeching venoms 11 times (15 if you try out Skelk venom). The only real difference is you don’t get stealth if your target is blocking/dodging/immune/etc

Except that this is a condition build, and direct damage isn’t what you need to go for.

But Hidden thief isn’t adding to your condition damage.

With Hidden thief, you save 6 init every 21 seconds, and guarantee stealth on steal in case you don’t connect with your target (I think that’s how Hidden thief works at least, haven’t used it in forever).

With leeching venoms, you generate additional damage and healing.

It’s fine if you don’t like the suggestion, but let’s not pretend Hidden thief is increasing your ability to burst. All it does is guarantee a stealth on steal, something you can usually do by pre-casting CnD. In exchange for occasionally not getting stealth on steal , you can have 11-15 leeching venom triggers. A little bit of static direct damage that isn’t mitigated by armor and is effective even at base power doesn’t sound so bad as an additional threat for a condition based spec. And then there’s the healing on top of that – you spec is designed around hitting with venom triggers, so it’s not changing your playstyle.

Additionally, the automatic stealth isn’t even that great – in any situation where you would potentially miss the CnD, you’d also miss the Daze on SoH, the mug, the init from klepto, and the boon rip from bountiful theft. I’m not familiar with how improv works – would improv trigger on a missed steal? If you miss a steal, your in pretty deep kitten already.

Is the spec so Init starved it needs an additional .3 init per second (assuming you use steal immediately every time its up)?

Viking Jorun.5413:

evilapprentice.6379:

Why take Hidden thief over leeching venoms? You’re running 4 venoms.

For the burst capabilities, and it essentially gives you a free condition removal on steal.

Except Leeching venoms makes you much burstier (comparative to how bursty a P/D condi spec is, anyway). Hit 5, steal, and now you have the CnD damage and all the leeching, and everything you were getting from stealth.

I can’t imagine 6 init every 21 seconds (the savings from not having to CnD when you steal) is better than the potential to trigger leeching venoms 11 times (15 if you try out Skelk venom). The only real difference is you don’t get stealth if your target is blocking/dodging/immune/etc

Why take Hidden thief over leeching venoms? You’re running 4 venoms.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAsYFFhmbNJdi/cigThThqmCaazuHXV+aF-TsAA1CtIyRljLHTOycs5MKYBxMEA

(With Skelk venom as the heal, obviously.)

Despite my overwhelming pessimism and disappointment in Skelk venom, the theorycrafter in me wants to try and make it work. Skipped out on Residual venoms in favor of Assassin’s Reward, and Venomous Aura because I won’t be running with any coordinated teams.

With leeching venoms+skelk venom+Assassin’s reward+Pain response+new initiative regen, I’m at least eager to test this out, though I don’t have high hopes for the damage the spec will inflict. If shadow’s embrace isn’t worth it, it can always be switched for Slowed pulse. Runes are also kind of a placeholder – Maybe Lyssa or Vampirism?

With the exception of Necro and Thief, all the heals have potential. They’re different, they’re new, they likely open up new spec options. Some seem really powerful, bordering on OP, but that’s just a first impression. Meta will have to settle before we can see how well each heal works (though the Mesmer signet looks insane on paper).

Livestream necro heal is a gutted, kittenty version of the datamined heal – it appears worthless. The datamined version might have been too much (just conjecture, not suggesting it was definitely OP), but the livestream version is certainly awful. An ICD? Why bother?

Livestream thief heal is better than the datamined version, but somehow still garbage – It’ll only be taken with Venom share builds (Yay spending 50/60 trait points to make my heal worth using), and even then its uninspired and boring compared to the design of all the other heals (even the necro heal, which was destroyed by the details – the design itself is interesting). It’s almost as if anet has no idea what it’s doing when it comes to thief.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Zacchary.6183:

What: Sword Auto
Why: BECUZ SWORD OHPEE

OH MY GAWD!!! that’s too OP. Not just the Sword Auto but that sword as well — no Thief should be allowed to use any sword at all, especially that one.

Don’t worry, Anet is taking care of the issue of thieves using swords on the 10th.

What: Pistol Range
Why: Because 900 range is much to far to have to close while being shredded by unload spam.

Maugetarr.6823:

Asomal.6453:

ronpierce.2760:

Asomal.6453:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Well, Skelk Venom will actually be much stronger than we first thought. Also, with the changes they made to the necro signet, thieves are only getting the second worst heal skill instead of the worst.

Are you implying that the necro signet is the worst skill? Lol
It’s probably the second stronger if the mesmer signet is per second

The necro heal is TERRIBLE, are you kidding? did you even watch the preview? It WAS okay and they totally kittened it internally. Did you see the about 4 seconds they stayed on Necro and how unenthused they were when they healed themselves for like 5k with a 35 sec cd. >_>:

Are you talking about the livestream? I didn’t see it. Do you have the link please?

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/c/3352860

Heal previews start at about 34:15.

Aaaaaaaand it’s still crap. Not the completely unusable garbage people thought it was going to be, but still uninspired, attached to a kittenty utility line, and leagues below what other classes got (except for necro, who got screwed pretty hard between the data mined stats and the preview incarnation). It’ll be a novelty for venom share builds, and a waste of 25 skill points (how does a PvP player get those, anyway?) for everyone involved.

Master of Timespace.2548:

evilapprentice.6379:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Stealth trap is the only thing that I know of, that can do this.

Stealth trap is one of the 2 things in the game that targets and completely shuts down an entire class mechanic. The other being Sic’ em, both targeting thieves.

Aye but… We both know Sic’ em is useless :P. Even stealth trap is only really useful to smoke trolly thieves out of keeps.

And we both know it’s not about the actual effect, it’s about the precedent set and the possible effects. It’s silly to introduce a hard counter into a game that completely locks out a class mechanic and potentially 30 trait points targeted at 1 class, regardless how effective it is.

It’s extremely kittenty, lazy design, and it does not bode well. Which is exactly what I said when they introduced the anti-stealth trap, and everyone said “Well, its just in WvW”.

Taldren.7523:

Mesmers get a lot of buffs from stealth and also get an attack from stealth with torch :p

Mesmer’s have 2 optional major traits in 2 seperate lines that rely on stealth (and I’m not even sure how Desperate Decoy’s “Cloak” effect interacts with revealed), and an attack which grants stealth with torch – not a special attack that they can only access from stealth with torch.

The SA line has 3 minor traits, all shut down by revealed. All of the worthwhile major traits are also shut down by revealed. Their stealth attacks are just that, special attacks only accessible via stealth.

So, clearly not comparable.

RedSpectrum.1975:

evilapprentice.6379:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Stealth trap is the only thing that I know of, that can do this.

Stealth trap is one of the 2 things in the game that targets and completely shuts down an entire class mechanic. The other being Sic’ em, both targeting thieves.

To be fair, stealth isn’t our class mechanic, initiative is. If you took thieves out of the game, which it seems that’s the end game, stealth will still be there.

Stealth is one of our class mechanics – we are the only class in the game that gets additional attacks only accessible through stealth. We don’t only lose stealth when we have revealed, we lose access to BS/Sneak Attack/Surprise Shot/Tactical Strike, and in addition, the useful traits in SA are completely negated.

If all we lost was the ability to go invisible, it wouldn’t be a big deal. The fact that it completely negates any of the viable Major traits in an entire line as well as the minor traits in addition to removing access to stealth attacks mean’s it’s denying a class mechanic.

samanosuke.4508:

evilapprentice.6379:

Skelk venom – Instant Cast
On use, the next 4 attacks leech health (dealing damage and healing you) and transfer 1 condition to your target. While skelk venom is active (while you have unused charges), regenerate X health per second.

Look at that, I just designed a venom heal infinitely superior to Anet’s version, without being silly and OP. It can handle conditions (something thief sorely needs), gives you a reason to actually use it over withdraw/HiS (via the leeching damage), and the passive heal that only lasts until you use all the charges adds a level of complexity and player control, bringing it somewhat on par with how innovative and different all the other classes new heals are looking.

It took about 5 seconds of thought (so it might need some tweaking), and playing a thief. Goes to show how inept their handling of the class is.

no, no, no!…. you basically copied my post from the previous page

My bad, didnt see it.

C Hanson.4056:

But even if they do, a thief who recognizes the signet and still presses unload probably deserves the damage he takes.

You speak as if Power/crit P/P thieves had some other options to do damage – it’s unload or don’t bother. Essentially, P/P against this signet is “Run away”.

P/P is a bad measuring stick however, since it’s a really, really kittenty set. It doesn’t change the fact that in P/P’s current incarnation however, this signet is practically an autowin.

Oghier.7419:

The key takeaway: ANet’s view of thieves is quite different from that of the thief player community. This is either the first step in a long-term vision, as yet obscure to us, or one of the parties has an imperfect understanding of the class.

That would imply Anet has a “view for thieves”. It’s not as if they’re making changes that just take us in a different direction – they’re making changes that make us strictly a less effective class. Seeing as most of the top tier players agree on the fact that thief has been a mid-tier class (at best) since june, this is confusing for many of us. They’re making blind stabs in the dark, and rather than just admit they have no idea what they’re doing and turn to the community for help, they actively ignore us, or just tell us how effective our options are when they’re provably not.

When it came time to design new heals, they seemingly did an excellent job on most of their classes – time will tell how effective the new heals are, but for every class other than thief, they’re at least interesting. They’re new, they potentially offer a new play style, they potentially open up specs or change the play style of current specs. The proposed thief heal (Even if the numbers turn out to be amazing) is boring, lazily designed, and uninspired.

Skelk venom – Instant Cast
On use, the next 4 attacks leech health (dealing damage and healing you) and transfer 1 condition to your target. While skelk venom is active (while you have unused charges), regenerate X health per second.

Look at that, I just designed a venom heal infinitely superior to Anet’s version, without being silly and OP. It can handle conditions (something thief sorely needs), gives you a reason to actually use it over withdraw/HiS (via the leeching damage), and the passive heal that only lasts until you use all the charges adds a level of complexity and player control, bringing it somewhat on par with how innovative and different all the other classes new heals are looking.

It took about 5 seconds of thought (so it might need some tweaking), and playing a thief. Goes to show how inept their handling of the class is.

Imagi.4561:

Brave Mallyki.1563:

So, since it is a venom it can be shared with others by using the venom sharing trait, right? Are we going to be see a switch to venom thieves now?

Pls no. I want no part of a venom meta.

Venom meta = Rerolling Warrior/Waiting for a better managed game to come out.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Stealth trap is the only thing that I know of, that can do this.

Stealth trap is one of the 2 things in the game that targets and completely shuts down an entire class mechanic. The other being Sic’ em, both targeting thieves.

Tetsuyja.7805:

u know that the tooltip of every venom describes what one hit does. in other words: 4×1400 points of health.

and nobody will take this skill, when it can countered by a heal skill (warriors stance skill)^^

CD too high when u are alone – CD is ok (or a little bit OP) if u take venom share and 20 points in DA. first put 20 points in DA then take skelk venom. new builds will appear……no.
no condition remove. ok. with condition remove the skill is OP. so if u take skelk venom, u have to spend 30 points on traits line without a choice (10 in SA – shadows embrace).

i’ll take withdraw, simply because it gives me agility removing immoo, chill and cripple and has a perfect cd with 15sec. thief’s don’t need a heal skill with a cd over 30sec. who the f*** has this idea? we have less vigor and should w8t longer until we can use our heal skill…

---

EDIT——————-
forgotten the 1 sec cast time sry, but for me, this skill is only usable if i stay 600m away from any enemy. the 1 sec cast time on basilica venom, ok, no prob, elite skill, maybe anet could remove it, but anyway.

This is starting to rise into the realms of the surreal. All these details cannot be accurate. What you’re describing is blatantly garbage – an indie developer wouldn’t let this pass QA. I’m not even making a dig at ANet, I’m honestly convinced something has to be wrong here (or this is an early build of the ability, etc…), because as described, this skill is provably worse than our current options in nearly every single way.

Everyone seems to be focusing on the numbers (the heal, the cd, etc), which are all subject to change, rather than the actual design, which (assuming the leak is true) is the real problem.

Every single other heal for each class seems awesome, or at the very worst interesting. They’re innovative and different. They appear to open up new spec options, or strengthen current spec options. They’re different enough that they make the class interesting while players figure out what new spec options these new heals might open up, or what working specs they might strenghten. They sound fun and new.

Ours is a kittening venom. It’s not only old, it’s part of a really kittenty utility line that’s needed changes for kittening months. Even if the numbers are strong (healing per strike, cd, etc), it’s really boring design wise compared to how cool all the other classes new heals are. This is kittening laughable – like they want to salt the Dec 10th wound before they’ve actually inflicted it.

Arkantos.7460:

lets wait till dec 10th
everything here is just brainstormed
, devs know how venoms works, sooo it would be the inefficent heal skill of the game

They’ve known how poorly performing venom’s have been for a year and have yet to do a thing about it. The Dev’s have set a very poor precedent for trusting them with anything concerning the thief class.

frans.8092:

It’s in the healing slot. Healing is 5 × 1/6 of that of Withdraw, but on a 45 sec cooldown, while Withdraw is on 15 seconds. It also very likely doesn’t trigger on-heal stuff, so, it looks LAME. Whatever they were smoking when creating it, it should be destroyed asap.

The actual numbers (as long as they’re not ridiculously OP or UP) don’t really matter. If we assume that the description of the other classes heals (contained in this thread) are accurate, this venom heal looks downright awful. It’s nowhere near as interesting, versatile, or innovative as the other listed heals, which all sound really cool.

AEFA.9035:

Water Spirit: Spirit. Summon a water spirit that grants nearby allies a chance to heal when attacking. Aqua Surge: Heal yourself and cause your water spirit to heal nearby allies.

Signet of Vampirism: Signet Passive: Siphon life from enemies that strike you. Signet Active: Mark an enemy. Allied players will steal life from that enemy.
-Signet of the Ether: Signet Passive: Heal yourself based on the number of active illusions you control. Signet Active: Heal yourself and refresh all phantasm skill recharges.

-Litany of Wrath: Meditation. Heal yourself. For a brief time, you heal each time you strike an enemy, based on a percentage of damage dealt.

-A.E.D.: Gadget. Activate your A.E.D., enabling the system to heal you after a brief period of time. If your health drops below 1%, you are healed for a massive amount and your A.E.D. is deactivated. Static Shock: Use your A.E.D. to stun an enemy.

-Arcane Brilliance: Arcane. Blast the target area, hitting foes with critical damage and healing yourself. Healing effectiveness is increased per target hit.

-Skelk Venom: Venom. Your next few attacks heal you.

-Defiant Stance: Stance. Absorb all incoming strikes for a period of time. All incoming attacks heal you.

^ warrior. LOL!!! OP as usual

The thief heal is by far the least interesting, the least innovative, and the least useful of all these proposed new heals. It is potentially good (not definitely, just potentially) for one build (venom share) which requires dedicating 5 out of 7 major traits entirely to making the build work.

This means these are probably all accurate, as Anet has made it painfully clear they do not know how the class they designed works, and have no clear vision on how it should work.

Zenjii.6819:

Valentin.2073:

4v5 is rampant now and quitters too. although, it takes strategy with one sneaky guy capturing nodes opportunistically to still win a 4v5 match. ^^,

and a rank 1 on the other team

And a rank 16 who managed to never interact meaningfully with a point or participate in a kill.

Viking Jorun.5413:

For fairness, would someone be willing to post a topic with the complete list of buffs since release?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Complete-list-of-buffs-since-release/first#post3254448

June 25th, 2013

• Lotus Strike: Increased the poison duration from 2 seconds to 4 seconds.
• Shadow Pursuit: This ability now grants fury and 10 stacks of might for 5 seconds along with stealth when used to teleport to the enemy who triggered Shadow Trap. This ability now breaks stuns. Using this skill puts Shadow Trap on recharge.
• Death Blossom: This trait now costs 4 initiative.
• Pistol Whip: Decreased the time between the stun and the sword flurry.
• Scorpion Wire: Decreased the aftercast by .2 seconds. Reduced the cooldown to 20 seconds.
• Signet of Malice: Increased the base heal by 33% of the passive ability.
• Steal: Reduced the recharge to 35 seconds.
• Deadly Strike:. Increased the damage from 1 to 1.2.
• Dancing Dagger: Reduced the initiative cost to 3.
• Pain Response: Reduced the cooldown from 45 seconds to 30 seconds.
• Hard to Catch: Reduced the cooldown from 60 seconds to 30 seconds.
• Furious Retaliation: This trait now grants 10 seconds of fury when striking a target whose health is below 50%. This effect can only occur once every 30 seconds.
• Signets of Power: The 5 stacks of might that this trait grants have been increased to 10 seconds.
• Corrosive Traps: This trait now grants 5 stacks of vulnerability for 8 seconds (up from 5 seconds).
• Sundering Strikes: Vulnerability caused by this trait has been increased from 5 seconds to 10 seconds.
• Panic Strike: Reduced the cooldown from 60 seconds to 30 seconds.
• Slowed Pulse: The effect of this trait now occurs if the player has 2 or more stacks of bleeding.
• Shadow Protector: This trait has been changed to apply 10 seconds of regeneration when the players stealth them. This effect will not occur if the ally already has regeneration on them.
• Merciful Ambush: This trait now grants 2 seconds of stealth to players and their allies when beginning a revive.
• Long Reach: This trait now increases the range of Steal to 1500 (up from 1200).
• Ricochet: The chance to bounce for this trait has been increased from 25% to 50%.
• Sleight of Hand: In addition to dazing the player’s target, this trait now reduces the recharge of Steal by an additional 20%.

July 23rd, 2013

• Shadow Strike: This skill now applies 2 stacks of torment for 5 seconds.

October 15th, 2013

• Venomous Aura: Increased the venom share radius to 360.

This list was compiled without much proofreading, so it’s possible I missed a few things.

It’s important to note not just the quantity of the above buffs, but the quality. From a PvP standpoint, any of the water-weapon based changes are basically pointless, and many of the buffs listed above are so ridiculously minor as to be almost worthless.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Complete-list-of-nerfs-since-release/first#post3254348

I thought this a fair request, and a fun little activity, so here we go.

October 22nd, 2012

• Flanking Strike: This skill’s first attack is now unblockable.

November 15th, 2012

• Blinding Powder: This skill’s recharge has been reduced from 60 seconds to 40 seconds.
• Smoke Screen: This skill’s height has been increased to help it absorb projectiles. (arguably a buff, arguably a functionality fix)
• Leeching Venoms: This trait now scales based on the thief’s power.
• Scorpion Wire: This skill’s range has been increased to 1200.
• Shadow Trap: This skill no longer shadowsteps the thief when the trap is triggered. This skill now has two additional abilities: The first ability becomes available when Shadow Trap is cast and will destroy the current trap. The second ability, Shadow Pursuit, becomes available when an enemy triggers the trap. The thief may choose to activate this ability and shadowstep to the enemy that triggered the trap. If this ability is not activated after 10 seconds, the ability will fade and Shadow Trap will be available.
• Piercing Shot: This skill is now a small projectile combo finisher.
• Ink Shot: This skill is now a projectile combo finisher.

December 14th, 2012

• Ink Shot: This skill is now a projectile combo finisher. (again, apparently)
• Tow Line: This skill is now a projectile finisher.
• Ink Shot: Projectile speed for this skill has been increased by 22%
• Instinctual Response: Now triggers at 10% damage instead of 20%.
• Ricochet: Increased bounce chance from 5% to 20%.
• Fleet Shadow: Increased move speed from 33% to 50%.
• Slowed Pulse: This can now trigger every 20 seconds instead of every 30.
• Pistol Mastery: Increased damage from 5% to 10%.
• Improvisation: Now also increased damage with environment weapons by 10%.

January 28th, 2013

• All Venoms and Assassin’s Signet – The number of uses on this skill’s effect will now decrease if an attack lands or if the attack is negated by Blind, Block, Evade, Obstructed, or Invulnerable.

February 26th, 2013

• Shadow Shot: This ability now allows the player to move while executing dagger strike portion of the ability. (Really a functionality fix, as a gap closer that roots its user on hit is useless)
• Withdraw: This ability now scales 20% better with healing power. Base healing per level has increased by 10%.

March 26th, 2013

• Uncatchable trait – Increased effective radius by 50%.
• Haste skill: Increased duration from 4 seconds to 5 seconds.

April 30th, 2013

• Shadow Shot skill: The projectile portion is now unblockable. (Really a functionality fix, to prevent Thieves from pulling players to themselves when reflecting projectiles)
• Flanking Strike/Larcenous strike split
• Leeching Venoms trait: Increased the damage scale from power by 33%. Increased range from 325-400 to 325-425.
• General signet buff, doubling passive stat boost
• Haste skill – Increased duration by 1 second, Players now regenerate endurance at 50% effectiveness (increased from 0%) when under the effects of this skill.

vincecontix.1264:

Sanduskel.1850:

I really don’t understand why y’all are so upset. Some of us simply don’t buy the doom and gloom being propagated here, and we trust anet to do the best for the entire game. We just aren’t naturally pessimistic I suppose. Hang in there, the thief class will be better off.

I really dont understand why you won’t back up you statements by dueling some of us. Its an opportunty for you show everyone you know what your talking about why wouldn’t you take it.

Also in your previous post you used the term broken mechanic did you mean stealth?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Complete-list-of-nerfs-since-release/first#post3253986

We really need to adopt this stance, fellas. Attempting civil discourse is a waste of our time, and just pads the boards with junk posts.

Dual.8953:

evilapprentice.6379:

They adjusted signets to have better passives, but didn’t bother to check the actives to see if they introduced a conflict/made something redundant. SOP for Anet.

They likely won’t increase the damage percentage on the active, but they definitely need to add something innate to the signet that makes it worth using.

Wonder if making it bypass Protection and Aegis would be OP’d or good. They could always increase the cooldown to compensate.

Not a bad suggestion, but a bit too narrow IMO. I’d prefer something more generally useful – perhaps adding a leech effect to each strike (which would add static damage) would be good? It could help increase thief survivability (via the health leech), and increase damage in a controlled manner (you could adjust the power scaling to ensure the additional damage wasn’t over the top).

Something a little less orthodox could be interesting – For the next 5 strikes that connect, your attacks do 5% more damage, compounding. First strike does 5% more damage, next 10%, and so on. It would add a tactical layer to the whole thing (Evaded attacks would reduce the overall effectiveness of the signet, it would force you to plan out your attacks if you wanted 25% more damage on that backstab/HS, etc), though it might be a bit too cumbersome.

Lighter.5631:

1st of all, cc chain? black powder and hes done, berserker stance ? kit him for 8 second or just pop in stealth. longbow pin down rifle killshot? whilring axe.
also wirling axe in black power? profit?

“Kite him for 8 seconds”

You realize how immense a bonus this in an organized competitive format, right? It’s not about “Can I eventually win this fight”, its “Can I win this fight in a reasonable amount of time”. Adding 8 seconds of kiting (and passive regen via HS) to a fight is more than long enough for a roamer to get to the fight, turning it into a 2v1. That’s just 1 scenario, there are plenty more.

They adjusted signets to have better passives, but didn’t bother to check the actives to see if they introduced a conflict/made something redundant. SOP for Anet.

They likely won’t increase the damage percentage on the active, but they definitely need to add something innate to the signet that makes it worth using.

Dahkeus.8243:

Travlane.5948:

Chicago Jack.5647:

Travlane.5948:

[…]it was close.

Lol! No it wasn’t!

Jumper had about MAYBE 40% hp..prolly less to the rangers 10% before he finished him off. the ranger was good from what im hearing. but 1 mistake would have equaled death for jumper. 1 knockdown….1 stun… blind or w.e. ….. it was a good fight and if it wasnt for BV who knows what would have happend. but 40% to 10% is still a close fight before jumper finished him

Agreed with this. Running around with the lowest health pool in the game and using a zerker amulet makes health disappear fast. Close fights with thieves are decided on evades, not on % of health.

This is one of the big problems with evade – players perceptions.

If an S/D thief wins a fight at 80%, a lot of players will feel they stood no chance. But as you said, the health % has almost nothing to do with it, the real question is how many evades did the thief have left? It’s not something your opponent can see, so if they aren’t aware of how a thief plays (and most players who complain about thieves really have absolutely no idea how a thief plays), it looks as if the thief was practically invincible the entire fight, and that just isn’t true. Good luck convincing them of it though.

I think its important to differentiate fixes from nerfs, the same way fixes that make a skill function as intended are not buffs (such as the recent Withdraw/Roll for initiative fixes)

The following from your list above were fixes to improperly functioning skills, not nerfs.

• Bountiful Theft: This trait has been fixed so that it doesn’t apply 15 seconds of vigor twice.
• Shadow Return skill: No longer has infinite range.
• Withdraw: The travel distance underwater has been cut in half to match the land distance.
• Blinding Powder: Stealth duration has been decreased from 5 seconds to 4 seconds when traited with Meld with Shadows. The skill remains with a base of 3 seconds. This skill is now a blast finisher.

The following were changes in functionality, and can’t clearly be considered a buff or a nerf

• Body Shot: This skill now applies 1 second of immobilize. Reduced the number of vulnerability stacks from 10 to 5. Increased the initiative cost from 3 to 4.
• Venomous Aura: Activating a venom skill with this trait equipped will now briefly display an indicator ring around the thief. (This wasn’t really a buff, nerf or fix, just a visual clue for your opponent so they can recognize whats happening)

The following were actually buffs.

• Death Blossom: This skill now costs 4 initiative. (Down from 5, IIRC)
• ALL VENOMS + ASSASSIN’S SIGNET: The number of uses on this skill’s effect will now decrease if an attack lands or if the attack is negated by Blind, Block, Evade, Obstructed, or Invulnerable. (IIRC, and I admit I may be wrong here, I believe venoms and assassin’s sig used to be consumed on any swing of your weapon, even if you were swinging at empty air.)

Darnis.4056:

Actually; Lyssa runes were in use even before by players like Jumper, It takes quite a long time to find the new OP rune set;

Svanir>Nerfed>Air>Nerfed>Melandru>Nerfed>Lyssa>Nerfed?

I’d like to say I wouldn’t count on it, but it’s hard to have any real trust in ANets judgement nowadays. They’ll likely cave to QQ rather than follow the logical path.

The fact that this thread has gained so much traction when Lyssa has been in the game since launch (as far as I know, at least) is pretty telling. Lyssa only became “a problem” (notice the quotes) when conditions grew out of control. Recent (compared to launch, at least) changes to the way conditions are applied/access to damaging conditions is the issue, not Lyssa runes. Take care of that issue, and you’ll realize Lyssa runes are fine as they are.

The Dev team believes that moving hard to catch down a tier is a “Survivability Buff”. They also suggest that for ease of stomping, thieves should think about bringing pistol OH in their second set.

They also failed to foresee how reducing LS to 1 boon steal would reduce it’s effectiveness in countering boon bunkers back to pre-FS split (when it was useless for countering boon bunkers). Somehow as a mere player, I predicted this the second it was suggested, and I only played S/D for a month or so before the FS split.

Anyone who’s played thief for a week can see how ridiculous the above suggestions/changes are, and these are just a few of them. When the developers of the game make it blatantly obvious they have no clue how the class works, we have a problem, and frankly little hope.

bhagwad.4281:

evilapprentice.6379:

Your argument is fallacious.

The game is balanced for 5v5, both on a class basis, and the in terms of the map size/layout. 8v8 gives players a skewed impression of PvP interactions. It might be fun to kitten around, but if all you do is 8v8, you’re going to get a very poor impression of the game itself. Classes won’t seem balanced properly, maps will seem off, etc etc etc.

It’s about whats good for the game and the playerbase in the long run, not what’s “fun right now” for some.

He’s saying it’s fun for the majority of people and that we have no right to tell others what they should be enjoying.

The problem is 8v8 doesn’t add anything to the game. It’s a place for experienced players to mash buttons, waste time, and roflstomp people, and a place for inexperienced players to get a very skewed and incorrect impression of how PvP works in this game.

If there was a clear tutorial, that explained that the game was balanced around 5v5, and walked you through some standard TPvP strategies/tactics, it would be a different story. As it is, any inexperienced player who hops from 8v8 to TPvP is going to be in for a very unpleasant surprise – they’ll basically be playing a different game. Even if 8v8 fun, that doesn’t make it good for the game in the long run.

Your argument is fallacious.

The game is balanced for 5v5, both on a class basis, and the in terms of the map size/layout. 8v8 gives players a skewed impression of PvP interactions. It might be fun to kitten around, but if all you do is 8v8, you’re going to get a very poor impression of the game itself. Classes won’t seem balanced properly, maps will seem off, etc etc etc.

It’s about whats good for the game and the playerbase in the long run, not what’s “fun right now” for some.

BlackBeard.2873:

Excalibur.9748:

is mesmer complaining about S/D’s “free” stunbreak on sword when they have the same thing on their staff, called phase retreat?

I actually play ele most of the time, but understand the woes that mesmers face with S/D thieves (its the same). The “free” stunbreak hurts so much COMBINED with the evade-spam making it nearly impossible to ever punish said S/D. Taking away one of the 2 makes the fight more even, and now requires s/d to rely on its slotted stunbreaks instead of weapon ability.

Being hit at all is punishment for an S/D thief. They’re running glass stats to do viable sustained damage – they have to dodge nearly everything or they lose the DPS race against any other spec. Even just being hit by auto-attacks you can expect to be at half health in any fight you win because you’re always visible (stealth has little value to an S/D thief), and the fight drags on longer than against a spec running the same stats with a more burst oriented weaponset (like say D/P for thieves).

Yes, mesmer phase retreat is like a free stunbreak, but mesmer’s evades aren’t as spammable as thieves (still quite a few evades with vigor/energy sigils) – mesmers can be hit.

Mesmers also have access to protection, and staff is a ranged weapon as opposed to melee – phase retreat doesn’t remove their ability to use skills, in the same way IR necessitates closing the gap again. Stealth heavy specs can also continue to deal damage via conditions/clones/phantasms while the mesmer rides out the stealth effect (Mostly talking about PU specs here)

swinsk.6410:

Blah blah, I hate arenanet and their balance of thief.

What? Sword/Dagger has tons of evades/jukes and kills people? NERF INTO OBLIVION!
What? D/P has lots of stealth allowing removal of condis and healing? NERF INTO OBLIVION!
What? Dancing Dagger has amazing dps and kills people? NERF INTO OBLIVION!
What? Thieves stealth every 3s? NERF TO 4s!

We have never received a “real” buff to this class ever and if those kittens at arenanet think increased init regen is such a huge buff to cover all the incredibly huge nerfs this patch they are on some serious drugs.

I’m having fun until dec 10 on thief, after that, bye bye gw2 probably.

When they split FS and LS, and made LS steal 2 boons, it was a great buff. They cleaned up FS pathing (A fix, not a buff), separated the skills so you weren’t a sitting duck during it (another fix, this time to poor functionality), and gave LS the ability to actually threaten boon bunkers (The buff part).

Then they decided LS should cost 2 init instead of 1, which was ok.

Then they decided LS should only steal 1 boon, completely killing any ability the skill had to actually counter boon bunkers. And they left it at 2 init cost, so it’s actually a nerf.

Do buff’s we got temporarily but were later turned into a minor nerf count?

Travlane.5948:

Zero Day.2594:

Travlane.5948:

salty. if you think regen is better than init traits/skills than you really should think a lil harder. even if you had 1.5 init per second its not as useful as having initiative gain skills/traits bc u need them on command to finish enemies or escape or to go stealthed. having initiative on command is a NECCESSITY for thief. not a luxury.

Isn’t that one of their reasons for nerfing, the fact that it’s a “necessity” to be using skills/traits that give init. You know if they nerf them so much that it’s relatively useless to take those skills/traits… then we don’t have to, and that promotes build diversity! So, if any of our skills/trait’s become another necessity, that’s when they become targets for a nerf (buffing/fixing other skills/traits? lol good one)…

u missed the point. its a neccesity bc we need to have a FAST gain. not a fast regen. for emergencies and finishing. low hp low armor no block no invuln no protection no aegis …. its a neccessity. this init nerf is making it worse. its taking the control from the players and making it passive not to mention for an overall loss.

The problem is they think they’ve increased thief survivability.

If we pretend thief is survivable, then the new init changes make sense. You don’t blow all your initiative at the start of the fight, you whittle your opponent down, and burst them at the end, with all this lovely initiative you’ve got from the increased regen and from not having to go nuts spending init throughout the fight.

Unfortunately, Anets thoughts on “Survivable thief” is hard to catch and assassins reward, nerfing vigor uptime, and ruining sword on the competitive level.

Thieves survivability is based around evading damage as much as it can, and has the tools to do so (less so after Dec 10th for some reason, but they’re still there).

The low, consistent healing of assassins reward, combined with skillfully evading big attacks is noticeable. I used assassin’s reward for a long time before the bunker/war meta stabilized, and while it wasn’t amazing, it was clearly the best choice among Acro traits. I’ll reserve judgement until I’ve actually tested the skill, but I’m hopeful that it will be useful – it’s the only positive survivability change coming in the next patch.

Also note, since no one in their right mind will run Hard to catch or the new garbage Quick recovery, 30 acro specs wont have many options – It’ll be vigorous recovery, pain response and Assassin’s reward for most.

Oghier.7419:

D/D still works! And, if you have a taste for condition builds (and there are a lot of reasons not to), P/D isn’t getting nerfed. In fact, those two specs are, on balance, buffed a bit.

I really wanted to like S/D. At least this change will release me from any temptation to build a Bolt, the only thiefly Legendary I like

P/D isn’t TPvP viable. Neither is D/D, really – it’s not a weaponset that can compete with the builds that other classes are going to be bringing post dec 10th patch.

There’s alot of stuff that works in hot join that won’t hold up in a competitive environment with competent players. Right now thats S/D and D/P (both with Sbow offhand, because it’s a requirement). Post dec 10th, most thieves argue it’ll just be D/P, and Anet hasn’t offered us any reasoning to counter those arguments.

vrilek.4038:

Ive lost the reason to play the game after reading incoming changes.. But i will w8 till 10th Dec and decide;) Till then im on break. Cheers!

Yeah, I’ve kind of lost the desire to play as well. I tried D/P for about an hour, decided it wasn’t for me, and just kind of stopped playing.

GameVeight.2745:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Imagine using Fear infinite times…let the QQ begins.

The F2 skill would have its own cooldown equal to that of Steal, technically it would be no different than stealing from the same target over and over.

Examples:
1. Steal Skull Fear from necro
2. use Skull Fear
3. wait for steal to cooldown(minimum 21sec)
4. goto 1.

In my proposal it goes something like this.
1. Steal Skull Fear from necro
2. use Skull Fear
3. wait for Skull Fear to cooldown(minimum 21sec)
4. goto 2.

Steal has too many traits tied to it for this to be a useful change.

Don’t get me wrong, you’re suggestion would be interesting, but a very minor buff. Steal is always a gap closer, which can be very important. Additionally, it can apply poison, do some damage and a heal, regenerate initiative, trigger might/fury/swiftness, steal boons, etc etc etc. The CD for each F2 skills would have to be shorter than steal to truly make it worth it outside of some niche situations, and that’s just not realistic for some of the more useful stolen items.

Hype.8032:

Jumper says it best.

I agree, and would love to hear Anets take on the situation. I was patient on the 5th, because we still had over a month to have a back and forth concerning this change.

10 days later, and we still haven’t heard a thing about it, and I’m starting to get worried, hence the post.

Travlane.5948:

Snip

Yes, I’m sure most X/D specs are using stealth 16 times per minute (the only way to get +32 initiative out of it).

It’s also good practice to use your signets ASAP so you can get the most initiative out of them, rather than when you actually need them for the active ability. Same with steal – hit it the second you can, because the initiative gain is much more important. than using it tactically.

What you’ve done is compare max possible initiative regen pre and post Dec 10th, with absolutely no regard to spec or effectiveness of playstyle. Playing in a manner that would net you 120 init per minute would be a joke – you’d be hammering skills the second they were up, regardless of whether or not they were useful, just to generate initiative, and running a pretty awful spec (again, just for max init regen). You’ve also chosen to clock Infusion of Shadow at a whopping +32 init, when 3 of the 4 specs you listed above couldn’t possibly stealth that much in 60 seconds in any realistic situation (1 can’t stealth via weapon skills At all!)

Your entire synopsis is skewed, and the conclusion you drew from it incorrect and pointless. Please don’t spread misinformation, thieves have enough problems as it is.

Travlane.5948:

QUESTION for ANET/PLAYERS:

:)

S/P or S/D or D/D D/P build …..analyze init regen buff vs init gain nerf on the dec 10th patch. will it equate the same? better? worse? im going to guess worse …. as im writing this i have no idea how this will come out so… here goes.

Withdraw – Healing —-————- 15s CD
Infiltrators Signet – Tele 900 range CD + 2 init —-——-24s CD
Signet of Agility- Remove 1 condi per ally & Renew energy 2 init————-24s CD
Shadowstep – Tele 1200 range Tele back -3 condis --————— 50s CD
Basilisk Venom- 1.5s Channel 1.5sec stone to target on hit —-————kitten CD

Traits init boost as of PRE DEC 10th

+2 init per stealth (32 init per 60 secs)
+2 init per signet 20% cooldown reduction on signets (9 init per 60 secs)
+3 init per steal (roughly 6 init per 60 secs)
+1 init per crit per 1 sec (CD) (roughly 16 init per 60 secs)
+2 init per 10 secs (12 init per 60 secs)
+.75 init per second base regen (45 init per 60 secs)
TOTAL= 120 initiative gained per an average 60 sec fight

Traits init boost as of POST DEC 10th

+2 init per stealth (20 init per 10 secs)
+1 init per signet 20% cooldown reduction on signets (4 init per 60 secs)
+2 init per steal (roughly 4 init per 60 secs)
+1 init per crit per 5 sec (CD) (roughly 8 init per 60 secs)
+1 init per 10 secs (6 init per 60 secs)
+1 init per sec base regen (60 init per 60 secs
TOTAL= 102 initiative gained per an average 60 sec fight

TOTAL DIFFERENCE = 18 init per 60 secs

THE CHANGES are basically -3 init per 10 seconds for thief POST dec 10th.

If we pretend that nobody is stacking stealth for extra init….then its only roughly about a difference of -1 init per 10 secs loss.

I fail to see how this is beneficial or at least even?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Pre-Post-Dec-10th-changes-The-real-deal/first#post3206571

This entire assertion is…extremely wrong…in a bunch of places.

First of all, your base comparison is using a 0/20/10/20/5 spec (with 15 leftover points), with every optional initiative gain trait slotted. It’s an awful spec that would never work. Your conclusion is based on the same spec, and is thus completely wrong.

Secondly, your post Dec 10th Opportunist math looks off (you should realistically be getting 10-12 init per minute)

Then there’s just a bunch of other “math” that you just sloppily assert without giving us any idea how you got to your end numbers.

It also relies on using abilities like steal and signets the second its up regardless of situation, which is unrealistic to put it mildly.

This post is probably better left ignored until you clean up pretty much everything in it, otherwise you’re going to be spreading blatant misinformation.

Takato.4976:

evilapprentice.6379:

Travlane.5948:

evilapprentice.6379:

Why would it?

S/P is a direct damage weaponset, there isn’t a single ability in it that can stand to gain from taking condition damage. Why add 5 bleed stacks (at lets say 5 seconds), that do roughly 1k damage over 5 seconds (since you’re going to be focusing on power/crit/crit damage)?

i agree with what you are INTENDING but i would like to note there is no such thing as condition or direct dmg set. each set SHOULD be able to be used as either. sword is the only weapon that really cant be used as condi even tho every other weapon in game kinda can do both.

Weapon sets that can’t do condition damage
Thief
D/P
S/P

Warrior
A/A
A/S
M/S
M/M
GS
.
.
.
.
I mean, I could keep going, but why bother? It’s fine if a set is designed to do 1 kind of damage, its fine if a set is intended to do both, but S/P is clearly designed as a direct damage weaponset.

When are they removing the poison off of dagger main hand ?

Brilliant display of literalism my friend.

Now you go build a condition spec that kills someone who isn’t legally braindead with poison damage from lotus strike, build us a little demo video, and post it on the boards.

Then please address the actual point, which you ignored for your snarky comment. None of those weaponsets listed are capable of killing someone with condition damage, they’re all clearly designed to do direct damage, and direct damage only.